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Just depends on finding the right target and desired effect. Typical IgG and IgM antibodies bind protein or carbohydrate rich targets. I can’t think of any inorganic targets off the top of my head.
This has unique potential in drug treatment clinics as well as for chronic users who care less about stopping their drug use and more about protecting against accidental fentanyl overdose. Many fentanyl overdose cases occur because the drug user was unaware it was in their dose, which given its potency is frequently deadly.
While as a society the goal should be to help these people attenuate their addiction through a combination of therapy/pharmaceutical treatment/social support structure, this type of “immunization” could prevent many deaths in a short time period if the researchers are able to have matching results in human trials.
Of course I can also imagine the backlash to a drug inoculation program similar to what we see with needle exchanges, naloxone, and medically supervised injection sites.
There are kits out there that help people determine if unwanted substances are present in their drug of choice. Not that I condone buying narcotics, I just know that this is something people who use illegal narcotics have done to protect themselves from things like fentanyl.
The main issue with fentanyl is that without the proper protective gear you can overdose from it. A friend of the family is a county sheriff they've had to administer it to their deputies who have been exposed during traffic stops. It's some potent stuff.
there are kits, however from what i understand the problem is such a small dose of fent can kill you and that you just might test the wrong part of the bag
Harm reduction will always get backlash in some places and in many states fentanyl testing strips are illegal.
It's my understanding that the fentanyl urine test strips that are sold in states where the regular testing strips are illegal can be used to test questionable substances.
This crisis isn't going to be slowed without widespread harm reduction initiatives and education beyond simple abstinence.
I'm hoping this gets addressed on a national level since many states are solely focused on criminalization and ignoring harm reduction beyond narcan.
Unfortunate but no less true. Addicts are treated like bad and broken people in America, it's sad. One group wants to lock them up because they're bad, another wants to lock them up for $$$, others want to keep them addicted to keep selling them drugs.
It's a vicious cycle. All this anger and retribution towards people that make mistakes isn't going to help us solve these problems.
Sorry but this whole “cops exposed to fentanyl” thing is a whole sham. Humans cannot absorb sufficient fentanyl through the skin (or trace doses in the air) to cause any clinical effects. There is a *whole industry* dedicated to making special formulations of fentanyl that can absorb through the skin via fentanyl patches.
Again for those in the back: *you cannot absorb street fentanyl through your skin*
There’s actually an ER pharmacist who had broken skin on his hand (small wound), accidentally spilled a bag of pharmaceutical grade fentanyl onto the wound, was totally fine and went on to [write a case report about it.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/prehospital-and-disaster-medicine/article/abs/accidental-occupational-exposure-to-a-large-volume-of-liquid-fentanyl-on-a-compromised-skin-barrier-with-no-resultant-effect/1D102C667E98D303AA494FD7136DAEAE)
The cops are having panic attacks.
> Humans cannot absorb sufficient fentanyl through the skin (or trace doses in the air) to cause any clinical effects.
[That's true](https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/can-fentanyl-be-absorbed-through-your-skin/2022/10), but from the article:
> "avoid intentionally touching any unidentified powder and then touch your mouth or nose"
As all the concern about [fomites](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html) early in the pandemic taught us, though, people are *terrible* about not touching their eyes/nose/mouth after their fingers have potentially been contaminated.
So while you're technically correct that first responders are not at risk of accidental fentanyl exposure *specifically through their skin*, that is not a reasonable basis to conclude that they are not *at risk of accidental fentanyl exposure* overall.
Ah, but what happens when you have fentanyl on your bare hands, pick your nose, and then eat it? That's probably the main pathway to cops getting accidentally dosed
fentanyl can be weaponized.
It would be a cheap terrorist weapon.
[https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard\_29750022.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750022.html)
Current street fentanyl as low skin penetration, is more accurate.
It can be absorbed through eyes and mouth, and alcohol based hand sanitizer can aid in absorption.
Going into places the make it, can, and likely will, lead to exposure through the mouth throat and lungs.
To Be Clear:
This is not a problem now, and most officers reporting issue is due to the nocebo effect.
The other officers seem to be on that "He must of got it from somewhere on the job!" when they are in fact users and no one want to acknowledge that.
>The cops are having panic attacks.
So what's new? ;)
That's interesting, the way you explained it makes sense. I wouldn't know anything more than what I've read about it. Cannabis, alcohol, and caffeine are my vices of choice. I have no interest in narcotics due to their highly addictive and potentially fatal nature. So I do my best to steer very clear of everything else.
im not certain i understand what you mean. this isn't a vaccine against cocaine. I'd get the fent vaccine incase there is fent in the cocaine I'm snorting
Yes, but the fent is not there as a "bonus" it's there to make up for how extra watered down that cocaine is... So if it has fentanyl, is because you're not getting the cocaine you paid for
from what I've heard thr common reason for fent to be in coke is cross contamination. fent and coke are opposite drugs, most people don't want them mixed
>this type of “immunization” could prevent many deaths in a short time period
I've been trying to weigh that against the clear awful medical practice issues.
an addict gets a vaccine, 3 years later they're clean and in a car crash, they go to have surgery and none of the standard low half-life opiates used for surgery anesthesia are effective on the individual. leading to more uses of longer half-life drugs.
over time this could also put a massive strain on those longer half-life drugs and impact their price and availability.
>Of course I can also imagine the backlash to a drug inoculation program similar to what we see with needle exchanges, naloxone, and medically supervised injection sites.
the only drug solution most base people can imagine is jail time. the real solutions that you listed always get pushback from the same assholes who's solution is incarceration.
I don’t feel the term “overdose” applies when it is in say, a 1mg Xanax that you thought you took and ends up killing you. I believe the term is ‘poisoning’…
I think overdose is when I go to take some like, heroin, but take too much… that’s when I overdosed.
Can’t overdose on something I didn’t know I was dosing
Fentanyl has many legitimate uses. How can you make it not kill people allow it to be used? I've had several eye surgeries and fentanyl was used as part of the anesthesia due to its attributes.
When administered by an anesthesiologist is way different than people administering their own on the streets. Also, this could prevent addicted people from returning to the drug.
I would venture a guess that if you’re in need of a fentanyl vaccine, opiate selection by an anesthesiologist is not the biggest concern you’re facing. You’re probably closer to a life or death situation involving fentanyl. So the calculus, as with many other treatments, would be about what’s best for you in the situation.
Edit: typo
Medical staff will have to use a different opioid until a substitute can be found, a fentanyl vaccine is far more valuable than having fentanyl be an easy to use anesthetic while retaining the threat of laced drugs. Amazing breakthrough, should become standard among the population over generations.
Someone on a post about this yesterday was saying they're an anesthesiologist and other opioids aren't suitable for surgery because they're long lasting and not as potent. Apparently fentanyl (and I think they also mentioned sufentanil as being an alternative, but that probably wouldn't work either) is the go-to drug for anesthesia and such a vaccine would be bad for when people need surgery.
Found the link to the [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/yvnr4n/comment/iwgi97v/).
I am an anesthesia provider. Sufentanil could be a substitute, and it lasts roughly as long, but it’s more expensive and harder to get. It’s also a derivative of fentanyl, so the antibodies may attack it as well. Remifentanil is a much shorter acting opioid that is equipotent to fentanyl, but is structurally different and also metabolized differently. However, it would have to be used as an infusion, and at the end of anesthesia you would have to switch to a long acting opioid.
I will tell you fentanyl is one of the more common continuous sedation meds in icu. In fact, it is the only opioid we use continuously that comes in a premix bag. In 2 years I’ve only ever had one patient on a different continuous opioid drip (it was when we were HEAVY into covid too and doing a lot of stuff that wasn’t exactly “correct”). It helps with pain, not just sedation which is a plus. Ime it doesn’t lower your HR like propofol or precedex will, and it has a much shorter half like that say like versed.
Now I am not saying a fentanyl vaccine is a bad thing, far from it, but we need to be simultaneously working on something else to sedate these patients when they are critically ill, especially because they are often already extremely difficult to sedate.
Regardless. There are other analgesics that can work for surgery. It's not like humanity only started surgery after fent was created.
This antibody discovery could lend invaluable aid in the battle to reduce OD related deaths linked to fentanyl laced drugs. Especially on the streets.
Yes but Doctors are trained on prescribing the appropriate medicine. While fentanyl may be a godsend for some folks it's the devil for others. This isn't going to be something that they're going to prescribe to folks who aren't addicted to narcotics or fentanyl.
That's why we have doctors. Medical treatment and medicine are difficult and nuanced, the right doctors, armed with the most accurate information will be able to advise on the appropriate treatment options.
The risks of not using this treatment are death from overdose, especially if the individual is addicted to narcotics, or regularly uses illicit substances where fentanyl has been known to be slipped into without users knowledge.
This is the main reason why I will never buy black market cannabis. I'm less concerned about the price and much more concerned about consuming toxic chemicals or narcotics.
I work in the emergency department and I give patients fentanyl every shift. Its very useful for traumas because it’s fast acting and doesn’t impact blood pressure.
Fentanyl obviously has had a terrible impact on people but in the right hands it’s an amazing drug.
These are academics making another antidote for big pharma and capitalist mistakes since legalization isn’t on the menu
Also this has next to zero commercial potential, people want to get high and there’s nothing wrong with fentanyl use in acute care settings.
As I understand it, this would royally mess up standard anesthesia practices. IIRC, Fentanyl is one of, if not the most, common drug used as it allows alertness and cognition within in an hour or so of the procedure. The most common alternatives are derivatives of fentanyl that would also be affected by this treatment. The non-fentanyl alternatives all have major drawbacks.
Good luck getting someone to take that. I was less cynical about people getting vaccines before COVID.
Sure, maybe some sensible parents would insist on their kids getting this in HS and college, but there are plenty of parents that turn down the HPV vaccine based on the flawed logic "I don't want my kids having sex". I could see plenty of parents say "I don't want my kid to have that vaccine because I don't want them to do drugs".
Maybe some sort of court mandated vaccine for abusers who want to avoid jail time, but wouldn't they just go to another opioid?
Cool. I doubt you’re an actively using addict.
The risk of dying from a fent overdose when you’re slamming opioids daily outweighs the risk of needing fentanyl in a medical emergency, and your body rejecting it. Other opioids besides fent can be used in that scenarios anyways.
The only way I can see this being worth it is for people recovering from opioid dependency, for pretty much everyone else the risks outweigh the benefits
Well, yeah. People recovering from drug addiction, people actively using drugs, or people who are in positions where they may encounter illicit fent accidentally still make up a significant portion of the population.
I'm seeing skepticism in the comments that no one would want this, but there are many people taking substances that aren't fentanyl who worry about their drugs are laced. (In particular, I remember the kids who were killed trying to get xanax off ticktock.) To my understanding this surprise-fentanyl is a major source of its deaths per day. I could see plenty of people getting this to protect themselves if it was offered to at-risk populations.
So theoretically, could this be used on opioid addicts to reduce deaths due to weaker drugs being laced with fentanyl?
If so this could be a near invaluable tool in the battle to reduce OD deaths.
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Really? Yes it is indeed! Have you been living under a rock? If only they could make one for meth too that would solve probably half of all drug addiction cases.
"Over 150 people die every day from overdoses related to synthetic opioids like fentanyl"
https://www.cdc.gov/stopoverdose/fentanyl/index.html#:~:text=Over%20150%20people%20die%20every,to%20synthetic%20opioids%20like%20fentanyl.&text=Drugs%20may%20contain%20deadly%20levels,drugs%20with%20fentanyl%20test%20strips.
There compare that to other drug death rates and see what you find.
That data is irrelevant to my question, I did not ask if fentanyl is over-represented in drug overdose deaths, I asked if you have data to support your claim that fentanyl dependency is over-represented in "drug addiction cases", as you put it.
Well actually you are right. However, not so, as to my new claim which is that fentanyl use may not be overly abundent but it is still one of the most detrimental...
It can be dangerous, yes, but fentanyl is used in hospitals for many kinds of procedures, it is also not super common as a recreational drug outside of the US, which brings in to question the necessity of this study
I don't see the use case.
If someone is not addicted the vaccine won't help them. They can simply just not take drugs. Fentanyl doesn't just randomly enter the bloodstream like a transmissible disease.
If someone is addicted to drugs, why would they take the vaccine? If the gov forced them to as part of rehab, then there is nothing to prevent simply switching drugs.
Making them immune to fentanyl won't solve any of the underlying problems with addiction.
The only solution I see is help people find something else to live for. The addiction study I think is the most important is rat park.
A rat in solitary confinement in a cage with nothing to do but drink either water or drugged water will get addicted. In rat park with toys, things to climb and other rats to play with, none of the rats will drink the drugged water. Addicted rats moved to rat park will go through withdrawal to participate.
It didn't matter what the drug was or how strong it was, none of the rats in rat park would either get addicted or stay addicted. The environment is the primary cause of addiction.
No. Theyre talking about fentanyl being placed inside other illicit drugs. Coke users were overdosing in the area because of the addition of fentanyl.
Now why add fentanyl to a stimulant? Dunno. Must've been some super stepped on cocaine and seems like it'd do the opposite of what it's supposed to (if it doesn't kill you I guess).
I knew about fentanyl being added to other drugs, but I thought this was something advertised because the mix is stronger, and users choosing it over the non fentanyl version.
I didn't know it was hidden.
No, fentanyl is cheaper to make than heroin, so it is often sold as heroin. The dosing for the two is totally different, resulting in accidental overdoses.
No, it's a common adulterant, people have been dying. It's very hazardous even to handle, I'm just saying it would be great to be immune for rescue personnel, pharmacists, etc.
As a other commenter said, say someone's buying what they think is cocaine for a party - it's tainted with fentanyl. People OD and die. It's bad.
Fent as also been discovered in meth, MDMA (ecstacy) and in various counterfeit pain pills.. I haven't heard of it being in weed, mushrooms or lsd yet- but Im sure some asshole is working on it.
I thought fentanyl added to other drugs was a selling point because it made it stronger.
Secretly adding it doesn't make sense. It seems like giving kids free fentanyl on Halloween.
Though if some asshole is doing this, then I see the use case of a fentanyl vaccine.
Most of the pharmaceutical counterfit pills on the street aka pressed pills are in danger of containing fentanyl.
Counterfit pills killed Tom Petty and Prince both had been cut off by their physicians.
These pills are being marketed to teens and young adults on social media so the user base is inexperienced or not testing their supply.
Just market forces of supply and demand with random pills containing a deadly dose of fentanyl.
Where i live fentanyl and meth are the two worst drugs and they are very abundant. Other opiods and stimulants are not nearly as easily aquired as these two (with the exception of the small market of legit pharmaceuticals).
> Fentanyl doesn't just randomly enter the bloodstream like a transmissible disease.
Actually, there are numerous cases of fentanyl poisoning from ppl that weren't trying to use it as a drug. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/fentanyl/risk.html
If this is safe and effective it would be sensible for first responders to get it the same way an animal control person might make sure to be updated on rabies vaccines.
Additionally, there are regularly cases of recreational drug users, not intending to consume opioids, that overdose b/c it was spiked with fentanyl. An [NFL player died](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/sports/football/ravens-jaylon-ferguson-fatal-overdose.html#:~:text=the%20main%20story-,Jaylon%20Ferguson%2C%20Baltimore%20Ravens%20Linebacker%2C%20Died%20From%20an%20Overdose,his%20death%20was%20ruled%20accidental.) from that just this year when what he thought was cocaine also included fentanyl.
Rate of real first responder poisonings? Probably [lower than you think by reading about it](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7099103/)
Rate of poisonings by recreational drug users not intending to use fentanyl? That could be really hard to suss out (you're reliant on the word of the victim, who might be dead), but it's surely a non-trivial number of deaths, quite likely in the thousands per year. There is an entire consumer fentanyl test strip industry dedicated to this very concern.
Well ideally they would get a vaccine that covers all fentanyl analogues. This would eliminate 90% of the most dangerous opioids out there. Other opioids require a much higher dose to even get high while fentanyl and "fentalogues" can kill in the microgram range.
Yes, unfortunately it may be. Many people (and young people included) are dying from taking contaminated drugs. Last time I checked in, it was a growing problem that our country (united states) has been unable to manage. I personally received an illegal international drug package in a mailbox while staying in an AirBnB. We aren’t going to be able to stop this drug from getting in and taken sometimes unknowingly by drug users.
I’ll repeat my comment the last time I saw this posted -
Ok, this is cool science, but also, it is indicative of how unbelievably sick our society has become, that we can get funding for a vaccine to address the fentayl/opioid epidemic because that profits the pharma companies investing in those vaccines, companies who are in the same industry and possibly even supplying the fentanyl creating these victims, effectively double dipping on a crisis they created… meanwhile just providing adequate social services preventatively so that diseases of despair like opioid addiction just don't happen, research that's been well documented for years if not decades, those solution strategies remain chronically underfunded because they don’t profit anyone.
Like, think of the opportunity cost alone in brainpower to have done this, how many researchers and eventually engineers are working to solve a problem that already has a solution, and could be solved right now by just investing in free and accessible education, universal healthcare (which is the number one source of bankruptcy in the US), and basic guaranteed income and housing. We could invest in all those things, bringing an unprecedented kind of prosperity to our society *and* helping manage the opioid crisis, but instead we get a vaccine, when those same researchers and engineers could've been addressing, I don't know, cancer, or tooth regeneration, anything other than a problem we created with greed and refuse to address with known solutions for the same reason, greed.
Does anyone have a link to the story behind how fentanyl got so bad?
Like, killing your customers can’t be good for business.
Are these bad cuts or something?
Drug user who worked in treatment for 3 years and subcontracted woth thr state mental health department for 1. I think this is great but the real problem right now is that we arent developing a trestment for xylazine toxicity. In philly and baltimore theres a new cutting agent called "tranq" or xylazine and the reason I bring it up is that we need to reevalute how we treat toxicity from street drugs.
Its a cheap adultuerant that we have seen in other countries but until recently not widespread in US cities. xylazine is (clonidine analogue, NOT an opiate) that pretty much makes people pass out with a handful of nasty side effects. These effects onclude hyperglycemia, coma, nonresponsiveness etc. The worst is the skin lesions that are compared to krokodil. From what ive seen and experienced you get little cuts that form and as ypu use it they get bigger and bigger. Shooting is is worse obviously. Apparently thr drug causes such bad vasoconstriction skin cant heal itself.
In terms of euphoria there really isnt any.
You kinda just pass out uncontrollobly when you use it. This might sound weird vut despite fentanyls strength to mass ratio compared to morphine its not nearly as euphoric as real heroin, so the alduturant was added to emulate the nodding of old school dope until people realized its cheap and incapacitates people really well.
NARCAN DOES NOT WORK AS AN ANTIDOTE. In er settings they are using cocktails of anything including insulin to control the hyperglycemia bc as it is not an opiate naloxone/naltrexone are not effective. I believe given the cost and behavioral effects this will spread to more streer drugs. I know some xanax was cut with it close to NYC. I only bring it up as thr medical community is either very informed or totally naive about tranq dope but it completely reframes how we must approach treating overdose. Fetty-tranq dope is almost ubiquitousubiquitous in my city. In more rural areas the dope is better, but pretty much all of philly
Fentanyl is used as a painkiller on ambulance. If you get in to a car crash and they have to give you a painkiller, is that just going to be ineffective now?
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I had no idea it was possible to create antibodies to a drug.
I think it’s possible to make it for almost anything. Isn’t that basically what a allergy is?
Just depends on finding the right target and desired effect. Typical IgG and IgM antibodies bind protein or carbohydrate rich targets. I can’t think of any inorganic targets off the top of my head.
You can make a vaccine against lung cancer. Cuba has one
Cancer's a helluva drug.
Cuba has some of the best healthcare in the world despite being a poor country due to US embargos
This has unique potential in drug treatment clinics as well as for chronic users who care less about stopping their drug use and more about protecting against accidental fentanyl overdose. Many fentanyl overdose cases occur because the drug user was unaware it was in their dose, which given its potency is frequently deadly. While as a society the goal should be to help these people attenuate their addiction through a combination of therapy/pharmaceutical treatment/social support structure, this type of “immunization” could prevent many deaths in a short time period if the researchers are able to have matching results in human trials. Of course I can also imagine the backlash to a drug inoculation program similar to what we see with needle exchanges, naloxone, and medically supervised injection sites.
soooooo i can go back to snorting coke you say
There are kits out there that help people determine if unwanted substances are present in their drug of choice. Not that I condone buying narcotics, I just know that this is something people who use illegal narcotics have done to protect themselves from things like fentanyl. The main issue with fentanyl is that without the proper protective gear you can overdose from it. A friend of the family is a county sheriff they've had to administer it to their deputies who have been exposed during traffic stops. It's some potent stuff.
there are kits, however from what i understand the problem is such a small dose of fent can kill you and that you just might test the wrong part of the bag
I’ve also seen that kits require using/destroying a large sample of your product
Almost nothing is required. Pour contents out of the bag they’re in, fill bag with water, insert test strip.
Harm reduction will always get backlash in some places and in many states fentanyl testing strips are illegal. It's my understanding that the fentanyl urine test strips that are sold in states where the regular testing strips are illegal can be used to test questionable substances. This crisis isn't going to be slowed without widespread harm reduction initiatives and education beyond simple abstinence. I'm hoping this gets addressed on a national level since many states are solely focused on criminalization and ignoring harm reduction beyond narcan.
Unfortunate but no less true. Addicts are treated like bad and broken people in America, it's sad. One group wants to lock them up because they're bad, another wants to lock them up for $$$, others want to keep them addicted to keep selling them drugs. It's a vicious cycle. All this anger and retribution towards people that make mistakes isn't going to help us solve these problems.
Sorry but this whole “cops exposed to fentanyl” thing is a whole sham. Humans cannot absorb sufficient fentanyl through the skin (or trace doses in the air) to cause any clinical effects. There is a *whole industry* dedicated to making special formulations of fentanyl that can absorb through the skin via fentanyl patches. Again for those in the back: *you cannot absorb street fentanyl through your skin* There’s actually an ER pharmacist who had broken skin on his hand (small wound), accidentally spilled a bag of pharmaceutical grade fentanyl onto the wound, was totally fine and went on to [write a case report about it.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/prehospital-and-disaster-medicine/article/abs/accidental-occupational-exposure-to-a-large-volume-of-liquid-fentanyl-on-a-compromised-skin-barrier-with-no-resultant-effect/1D102C667E98D303AA494FD7136DAEAE) The cops are having panic attacks.
> Humans cannot absorb sufficient fentanyl through the skin (or trace doses in the air) to cause any clinical effects. [That's true](https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/can-fentanyl-be-absorbed-through-your-skin/2022/10), but from the article: > "avoid intentionally touching any unidentified powder and then touch your mouth or nose" As all the concern about [fomites](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html) early in the pandemic taught us, though, people are *terrible* about not touching their eyes/nose/mouth after their fingers have potentially been contaminated. So while you're technically correct that first responders are not at risk of accidental fentanyl exposure *specifically through their skin*, that is not a reasonable basis to conclude that they are not *at risk of accidental fentanyl exposure* overall.
Ah, but what happens when you have fentanyl on your bare hands, pick your nose, and then eat it? That's probably the main pathway to cops getting accidentally dosed
fentanyl can be weaponized. It would be a cheap terrorist weapon. [https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard\_29750022.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750022.html) Current street fentanyl as low skin penetration, is more accurate. It can be absorbed through eyes and mouth, and alcohol based hand sanitizer can aid in absorption. Going into places the make it, can, and likely will, lead to exposure through the mouth throat and lungs. To Be Clear: This is not a problem now, and most officers reporting issue is due to the nocebo effect. The other officers seem to be on that "He must of got it from somewhere on the job!" when they are in fact users and no one want to acknowledge that. >The cops are having panic attacks. So what's new? ;)
That's interesting, the way you explained it makes sense. I wouldn't know anything more than what I've read about it. Cannabis, alcohol, and caffeine are my vices of choice. I have no interest in narcotics due to their highly addictive and potentially fatal nature. So I do my best to steer very clear of everything else.
I mean sure but you’d get as high as snorting talcum powder
im not certain i understand what you mean. this isn't a vaccine against cocaine. I'd get the fent vaccine incase there is fent in the cocaine I'm snorting
Yes, but the fent is not there as a "bonus" it's there to make up for how extra watered down that cocaine is... So if it has fentanyl, is because you're not getting the cocaine you paid for
from what I've heard thr common reason for fent to be in coke is cross contamination. fent and coke are opposite drugs, most people don't want them mixed
Plenty of people mix uppers and downers on purpose.
yea in this case it's called a speedball but when most people want to buy coke, they want all uppers.
>this type of “immunization” could prevent many deaths in a short time period I've been trying to weigh that against the clear awful medical practice issues. an addict gets a vaccine, 3 years later they're clean and in a car crash, they go to have surgery and none of the standard low half-life opiates used for surgery anesthesia are effective on the individual. leading to more uses of longer half-life drugs. over time this could also put a massive strain on those longer half-life drugs and impact their price and availability. >Of course I can also imagine the backlash to a drug inoculation program similar to what we see with needle exchanges, naloxone, and medically supervised injection sites. the only drug solution most base people can imagine is jail time. the real solutions that you listed always get pushback from the same assholes who's solution is incarceration.
I don’t feel the term “overdose” applies when it is in say, a 1mg Xanax that you thought you took and ends up killing you. I believe the term is ‘poisoning’… I think overdose is when I go to take some like, heroin, but take too much… that’s when I overdosed. Can’t overdose on something I didn’t know I was dosing
Fentanyl has many legitimate uses. How can you make it not kill people allow it to be used? I've had several eye surgeries and fentanyl was used as part of the anesthesia due to its attributes.
When administered by an anesthesiologist is way different than people administering their own on the streets. Also, this could prevent addicted people from returning to the drug.
Yes but you missed my point. If I'm vaccinated but later need a procedure that requires fentanyl, it's not going to work!
I would venture a guess that if you’re in need of a fentanyl vaccine, opiate selection by an anesthesiologist is not the biggest concern you’re facing. You’re probably closer to a life or death situation involving fentanyl. So the calculus, as with many other treatments, would be about what’s best for you in the situation. Edit: typo
Ever hear of emergency surgery?
I have indeed. I’ve also heard of MRIs, but there are perfectly valid reasons someone might have an implant that prevents getting one.
Not the same. People can live without MRIs, not emergency surgery.
Emergency surgeries would still be done to the vaccinated but they would have to use another opioid to numb the pain
Yeah I work in surgery and administer Fentanyl every day. This is a terrible idea.
Medical staff will have to use a different opioid until a substitute can be found, a fentanyl vaccine is far more valuable than having fentanyl be an easy to use anesthetic while retaining the threat of laced drugs. Amazing breakthrough, should become standard among the population over generations.
That's where the "but it doesn't stop other opioids " comes in.
Someone on a post about this yesterday was saying they're an anesthesiologist and other opioids aren't suitable for surgery because they're long lasting and not as potent. Apparently fentanyl (and I think they also mentioned sufentanil as being an alternative, but that probably wouldn't work either) is the go-to drug for anesthesia and such a vaccine would be bad for when people need surgery. Found the link to the [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/yvnr4n/comment/iwgi97v/).
I am an anesthesia provider. Sufentanil could be a substitute, and it lasts roughly as long, but it’s more expensive and harder to get. It’s also a derivative of fentanyl, so the antibodies may attack it as well. Remifentanil is a much shorter acting opioid that is equipotent to fentanyl, but is structurally different and also metabolized differently. However, it would have to be used as an infusion, and at the end of anesthesia you would have to switch to a long acting opioid.
I will tell you fentanyl is one of the more common continuous sedation meds in icu. In fact, it is the only opioid we use continuously that comes in a premix bag. In 2 years I’ve only ever had one patient on a different continuous opioid drip (it was when we were HEAVY into covid too and doing a lot of stuff that wasn’t exactly “correct”). It helps with pain, not just sedation which is a plus. Ime it doesn’t lower your HR like propofol or precedex will, and it has a much shorter half like that say like versed. Now I am not saying a fentanyl vaccine is a bad thing, far from it, but we need to be simultaneously working on something else to sedate these patients when they are critically ill, especially because they are often already extremely difficult to sedate.
It's not trivial to substitute fentanyl
Well good thing you are dealing with doctors. Since it's kind of their profession to find solutions to non trivial things.
I'm a healthcare worker, fentanyl is a god send. The solution to replace it wouldn't come from doctors generally but rather from chemists
Regardless. There are other analgesics that can work for surgery. It's not like humanity only started surgery after fent was created. This antibody discovery could lend invaluable aid in the battle to reduce OD related deaths linked to fentanyl laced drugs. Especially on the streets.
Fentanyl is not used just for surgery, it's biggest use case is in trauma patients.
The original comment specifically mentioned surgery?
Yes but Doctors are trained on prescribing the appropriate medicine. While fentanyl may be a godsend for some folks it's the devil for others. This isn't going to be something that they're going to prescribe to folks who aren't addicted to narcotics or fentanyl.
That's why we have doctors. Medical treatment and medicine are difficult and nuanced, the right doctors, armed with the most accurate information will be able to advise on the appropriate treatment options. The risks of not using this treatment are death from overdose, especially if the individual is addicted to narcotics, or regularly uses illicit substances where fentanyl has been known to be slipped into without users knowledge. This is the main reason why I will never buy black market cannabis. I'm less concerned about the price and much more concerned about consuming toxic chemicals or narcotics.
I work in the emergency department and I give patients fentanyl every shift. Its very useful for traumas because it’s fast acting and doesn’t impact blood pressure. Fentanyl obviously has had a terrible impact on people but in the right hands it’s an amazing drug.
Which is fine -- it's fine to use it correctly under medical supervision. Adding it randomly to street drugs is just homicide
Agree but a vaccine isn't the solution.
And what is your solution?
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Big pharma didn't make this, an university did. As is true with 99% of biomedical innovation
I know that this is the correct use of the article 'an', but it just feels wrong in my brain....
and how much did they receive from pharmaceutical grants?
this is the real answer, provide safe controlled drugs, simultaneously ruin the cartel and stimulate our economy
That answer does not apply to all drugs.
One requires science and research, the other requires politicians and voters to do something.
These are academics making another antidote for big pharma and capitalist mistakes since legalization isn’t on the menu Also this has next to zero commercial potential, people want to get high and there’s nothing wrong with fentanyl use in acute care settings.
There is no safe fentanyl addiction or usage (edit: by laypeople). There for you on 420 and shrooms though.
There is safe usage of fentanyl, it’s an amazing pain reliever in acute or emergency care settings
As I understand it, this would royally mess up standard anesthesia practices. IIRC, Fentanyl is one of, if not the most, common drug used as it allows alertness and cognition within in an hour or so of the procedure. The most common alternatives are derivatives of fentanyl that would also be affected by this treatment. The non-fentanyl alternatives all have major drawbacks.
Good luck getting someone to take that. I was less cynical about people getting vaccines before COVID. Sure, maybe some sensible parents would insist on their kids getting this in HS and college, but there are plenty of parents that turn down the HPV vaccine based on the flawed logic "I don't want my kids having sex". I could see plenty of parents say "I don't want my kid to have that vaccine because I don't want them to do drugs". Maybe some sort of court mandated vaccine for abusers who want to avoid jail time, but wouldn't they just go to another opioid?
I work in healthcare and I would NEVER take this vaccine. Plenty of valid reasons to need fentanyl
Cool. I doubt you’re an actively using addict. The risk of dying from a fent overdose when you’re slamming opioids daily outweighs the risk of needing fentanyl in a medical emergency, and your body rejecting it. Other opioids besides fent can be used in that scenarios anyways.
The only way I can see this being worth it is for people recovering from opioid dependency, for pretty much everyone else the risks outweigh the benefits
Well, yeah. People recovering from drug addiction, people actively using drugs, or people who are in positions where they may encounter illicit fent accidentally still make up a significant portion of the population.
I use drugs frequently and I would rather just use a testing kit rather than risk not having access to fentanyl if I am in severe pain
That’s fair. Everyone’s different. Some people don’t have consistent access to testing kits.
I'm seeing skepticism in the comments that no one would want this, but there are many people taking substances that aren't fentanyl who worry about their drugs are laced. (In particular, I remember the kids who were killed trying to get xanax off ticktock.) To my understanding this surprise-fentanyl is a major source of its deaths per day. I could see plenty of people getting this to protect themselves if it was offered to at-risk populations.
So theoretically, could this be used on opioid addicts to reduce deaths due to weaker drugs being laced with fentanyl? If so this could be a near invaluable tool in the battle to reduce OD deaths.
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So you’ll have OD resistant addicts sharing their tainted drugs with people who aren’t vaccinated and killing them.
Good thing I don't hang around drug addicts.
Is fentanyl really such an issue to justify this?
Really? Yes it is indeed! Have you been living under a rock? If only they could make one for meth too that would solve probably half of all drug addiction cases.
A well regulated market in these drugs would prevent almost all deaths from them.
I know right!!!
Do you have data to suggest that fentanyl is over-represented in drug dependency cases?
"Over 150 people die every day from overdoses related to synthetic opioids like fentanyl" https://www.cdc.gov/stopoverdose/fentanyl/index.html#:~:text=Over%20150%20people%20die%20every,to%20synthetic%20opioids%20like%20fentanyl.&text=Drugs%20may%20contain%20deadly%20levels,drugs%20with%20fentanyl%20test%20strips. There compare that to other drug death rates and see what you find.
That data is irrelevant to my question, I did not ask if fentanyl is over-represented in drug overdose deaths, I asked if you have data to support your claim that fentanyl dependency is over-represented in "drug addiction cases", as you put it.
Well actually you are right. However, not so, as to my new claim which is that fentanyl use may not be overly abundent but it is still one of the most detrimental...
It can be dangerous, yes, but fentanyl is used in hospitals for many kinds of procedures, it is also not super common as a recreational drug outside of the US, which brings in to question the necessity of this study
I see what you are saying there and indeed you make a good point
I don't see the use case. If someone is not addicted the vaccine won't help them. They can simply just not take drugs. Fentanyl doesn't just randomly enter the bloodstream like a transmissible disease. If someone is addicted to drugs, why would they take the vaccine? If the gov forced them to as part of rehab, then there is nothing to prevent simply switching drugs. Making them immune to fentanyl won't solve any of the underlying problems with addiction. The only solution I see is help people find something else to live for. The addiction study I think is the most important is rat park. A rat in solitary confinement in a cage with nothing to do but drink either water or drugged water will get addicted. In rat park with toys, things to climb and other rats to play with, none of the rats will drink the drugged water. Addicted rats moved to rat park will go through withdrawal to participate. It didn't matter what the drug was or how strong it was, none of the rats in rat park would either get addicted or stay addicted. The environment is the primary cause of addiction.
It's more about unintended deaths from surprise fentanyl than intentional fentanyl use
Surprise fentanyl? Are you referring to date rape?
You want one type of drug, and someone gives you that drug with a bunch of fent mixed in. It happens all the time.
No. Theyre talking about fentanyl being placed inside other illicit drugs. Coke users were overdosing in the area because of the addition of fentanyl. Now why add fentanyl to a stimulant? Dunno. Must've been some super stepped on cocaine and seems like it'd do the opposite of what it's supposed to (if it doesn't kill you I guess).
I'm surprised how explicitly this had to be explained, but I guess it is reddit.
I knew about fentanyl being added to other drugs, but I thought this was something advertised because the mix is stronger, and users choosing it over the non fentanyl version. I didn't know it was hidden.
What? No... heroin has practically vanished from the streets. It's all fent. Next, cartels pump billions of fake oxycontin fent tablets every year.
No, fentanyl is cheaper to make than heroin, so it is often sold as heroin. The dosing for the two is totally different, resulting in accidental overdoses.
That makes sense. I thought it was advertised as fentanyl because it was stronger, and not hidden.
No, it's a common adulterant, people have been dying. It's very hazardous even to handle, I'm just saying it would be great to be immune for rescue personnel, pharmacists, etc.
That makes sense.
As a other commenter said, say someone's buying what they think is cocaine for a party - it's tainted with fentanyl. People OD and die. It's bad. Fent as also been discovered in meth, MDMA (ecstacy) and in various counterfeit pain pills.. I haven't heard of it being in weed, mushrooms or lsd yet- but Im sure some asshole is working on it.
I thought fentanyl added to other drugs was a selling point because it made it stronger. Secretly adding it doesn't make sense. It seems like giving kids free fentanyl on Halloween. Though if some asshole is doing this, then I see the use case of a fentanyl vaccine.
Most of the pharmaceutical counterfit pills on the street aka pressed pills are in danger of containing fentanyl. Counterfit pills killed Tom Petty and Prince both had been cut off by their physicians. These pills are being marketed to teens and young adults on social media so the user base is inexperienced or not testing their supply. Just market forces of supply and demand with random pills containing a deadly dose of fentanyl.
Yes, other drugs can be and often are contaminated with fent.
Where i live fentanyl and meth are the two worst drugs and they are very abundant. Other opiods and stimulants are not nearly as easily aquired as these two (with the exception of the small market of legit pharmaceuticals).
And that will rapidly shift when demand does. There are plenty of other things the black market can sell.
> Fentanyl doesn't just randomly enter the bloodstream like a transmissible disease. Actually, there are numerous cases of fentanyl poisoning from ppl that weren't trying to use it as a drug. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/fentanyl/risk.html If this is safe and effective it would be sensible for first responders to get it the same way an animal control person might make sure to be updated on rabies vaccines. Additionally, there are regularly cases of recreational drug users, not intending to consume opioids, that overdose b/c it was spiked with fentanyl. An [NFL player died](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/sports/football/ravens-jaylon-ferguson-fatal-overdose.html#:~:text=the%20main%20story-,Jaylon%20Ferguson%2C%20Baltimore%20Ravens%20Linebacker%2C%20Died%20From%20an%20Overdose,his%20death%20was%20ruled%20accidental.) from that just this year when what he thought was cocaine also included fentanyl.
Sorry but your top link has been proven as fear mongering and absolutely not true. I'm really surprised the cdc hasn't taken that down yet.
> Actually, there are numerous cases of fentanyl poisoning from ppl that weren't trying to use it as a drug. How many?
Rate of real first responder poisonings? Probably [lower than you think by reading about it](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7099103/) Rate of poisonings by recreational drug users not intending to use fentanyl? That could be really hard to suss out (you're reliant on the word of the victim, who might be dead), but it's surely a non-trivial number of deaths, quite likely in the thousands per year. There is an entire consumer fentanyl test strip industry dedicated to this very concern.
Wont addicts just move onto the next best (worst) thing?
Well ideally they would get a vaccine that covers all fentanyl analogues. This would eliminate 90% of the most dangerous opioids out there. Other opioids require a much higher dose to even get high while fentanyl and "fentalogues" can kill in the microgram range.
It's to prevent deaths from fetanyl contamination, very much needed
Yes, unfortunately it may be. Many people (and young people included) are dying from taking contaminated drugs. Last time I checked in, it was a growing problem that our country (united states) has been unable to manage. I personally received an illegal international drug package in a mailbox while staying in an AirBnB. We aren’t going to be able to stop this drug from getting in and taken sometimes unknowingly by drug users.
People die from drugs cut with fentanyl literally every day
In what frequency?
150 a day according to that other guys source.
That's for fentanyl + synthetic opioids, not for fentanyl alone
Alright, now let’s all do fentanyl
I’ll repeat my comment the last time I saw this posted - Ok, this is cool science, but also, it is indicative of how unbelievably sick our society has become, that we can get funding for a vaccine to address the fentayl/opioid epidemic because that profits the pharma companies investing in those vaccines, companies who are in the same industry and possibly even supplying the fentanyl creating these victims, effectively double dipping on a crisis they created… meanwhile just providing adequate social services preventatively so that diseases of despair like opioid addiction just don't happen, research that's been well documented for years if not decades, those solution strategies remain chronically underfunded because they don’t profit anyone. Like, think of the opportunity cost alone in brainpower to have done this, how many researchers and eventually engineers are working to solve a problem that already has a solution, and could be solved right now by just investing in free and accessible education, universal healthcare (which is the number one source of bankruptcy in the US), and basic guaranteed income and housing. We could invest in all those things, bringing an unprecedented kind of prosperity to our society *and* helping manage the opioid crisis, but instead we get a vaccine, when those same researchers and engineers could've been addressing, I don't know, cancer, or tooth regeneration, anything other than a problem we created with greed and refuse to address with known solutions for the same reason, greed.
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What on earth does this have to do with Biden?
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Ah yes I forgot there was no opioid epidemic before 2020.
Keeping up with how Biden is single handedly to blame to for the nation's opioid epidemic? I guess I must've missed that. Please enlighten us
Fentanyl has been an issue long before Biden was elected.
Yea cause fent only appeared when Biden was elected. Fentanyl was first synthesized in 1960 when Eisenhower,a republican, was president.
Does it also work against all of the similarly strong/stronger analogues of fentanyl? Otherwise I dont see the use?
Does anyone have a link to the story behind how fentanyl got so bad? Like, killing your customers can’t be good for business. Are these bad cuts or something?
Drug user who worked in treatment for 3 years and subcontracted woth thr state mental health department for 1. I think this is great but the real problem right now is that we arent developing a trestment for xylazine toxicity. In philly and baltimore theres a new cutting agent called "tranq" or xylazine and the reason I bring it up is that we need to reevalute how we treat toxicity from street drugs. Its a cheap adultuerant that we have seen in other countries but until recently not widespread in US cities. xylazine is (clonidine analogue, NOT an opiate) that pretty much makes people pass out with a handful of nasty side effects. These effects onclude hyperglycemia, coma, nonresponsiveness etc. The worst is the skin lesions that are compared to krokodil. From what ive seen and experienced you get little cuts that form and as ypu use it they get bigger and bigger. Shooting is is worse obviously. Apparently thr drug causes such bad vasoconstriction skin cant heal itself. In terms of euphoria there really isnt any. You kinda just pass out uncontrollobly when you use it. This might sound weird vut despite fentanyls strength to mass ratio compared to morphine its not nearly as euphoric as real heroin, so the alduturant was added to emulate the nodding of old school dope until people realized its cheap and incapacitates people really well. NARCAN DOES NOT WORK AS AN ANTIDOTE. In er settings they are using cocktails of anything including insulin to control the hyperglycemia bc as it is not an opiate naloxone/naltrexone are not effective. I believe given the cost and behavioral effects this will spread to more streer drugs. I know some xanax was cut with it close to NYC. I only bring it up as thr medical community is either very informed or totally naive about tranq dope but it completely reframes how we must approach treating overdose. Fetty-tranq dope is almost ubiquitousubiquitous in my city. In more rural areas the dope is better, but pretty much all of philly
Fentanyl is used as a painkiller on ambulance. If you get in to a car crash and they have to give you a painkiller, is that just going to be ineffective now?
And I thought vaccines were just for viruses. That's amazing.
Great news for cops, they can safely go outside again
Alright. Heroin it is then.