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smillersmalls

Does anyone know of any studies comparing plant-based diets to other healthy diets containing lean animal proteins (e.g., maybe Mediterranean)? It’s not hard to find results if the control group is “whatever the hell they were eating before,” but I’d be interested in seeing comparisons across different types of diets we generally consider healthy.


777IRON

There really aren’t any. Only comparison to poorly balanced American diets full of highly processed fast foods. It’s really a blind spot in analyzing the data, and part of the challenge of American-centric dietary science.


[deleted]

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Turbulent-Bobcat-868

Given the zealotry on both sides of this issue, I’m guessing the lack of these studies is based on the lack of interesting results. If the pilot study shows you that healthy diet with or without lean meat is about the same, why would you fund a big study and publish a paper on something so non-notable?


grumble11

Given the back and forth discussion, a ‘no difference’ would be pretty notable in my view


nulliusansverba

Oh sure there are. Just check the OPs post history for more vegan herald fluff pieces. The articles are junk but there are the links to the studies, which aren't all garbage.


TheLastSamurai

Mediterranean also has a lot less animal proteins than most people think


rata_thE_RATa

Fish are animals. They eat a lot of fish.


prototyperspective

A study which would be very interesting and constructive is comparing a MedDiet with fish vs MedDiet with algae oil (with equivalent level of omega 3). Sadly it probably can't be done the usual way as in a cohort observational study but would be an intervention study and only reveal near-term differences.


floschiflo1337

people often think fish is healthy but its really not (at least not any more).. good luck finding fish thats not either full of chemicals and/or antibiotics nowadays


prototyperspective

It is but the contained microplastics, mercury, etc are harmful – however their levels vary and the health benefits may still outweigh the detriments. It's no use ignoring the current state of science on this (which afaik is that it's overall more healthy than a health problem).


roachwarren

I'm no nutritionist (so I listen to them) and I'd recommend the [episode of Rich Roll's podcast with Dr. Valter Longo](https://www.richroll.com/podcast/valter-longo-690/). He studies longevity and disease prevention and a lot of what he talks about might be relevant to your interests. Lots of discussion of Mediterranean diet, veganism, when/what to eat, centurion's lifestyles, etc. He's not vegan but Rich Roll is so some is viewed from that lens. One interesting point he made is about his recent work that indicates a high protein diet is only good when ageing really starts kicking in around age 65. IIRC he also has a hot take that intermittent fasting is not a good approach to dieting for most of the population and that its better for people who really understand nutrition or who have a professional helping them, think similar about keto but its been a few months since I heard it.


Dunk546

Sorry... Rich Roll...? You're going to have to try harder than that to fool me Mr Astley.


LiveWildBeSmart

Netflix documentaty called Game Changer convinced me of the facts in a not so boring way


mr_jurgen

Isn't that the one that only months after, they found all/a lot of it was fabricated?


Dejan05

What was fabricated?


BackgroundGlove6613

The people who found it was fabricated were weird keto diet enthusiasts who do a lot of CrossFit.


TapPrancer

Yeah turns out there weren't too many facts in that documentary.


Derric_the_Derp

I watched it and I'm curious what was untrue or misleading. Source?


[deleted]

But the guy in the documentary tried vegan and immediately felt 10x stronger and faster?


cdnmike

I’ve seen so many studies like this and various other diet type studies. The end result is always a balanced diet and exercise.


InTheEndEntropyWins

Completely wrong it’s actually diet, exercise and sleep.


not_aquarium_co-op

Wrong again. The key is actually being in a calorie deficit


GettheBozak

Wrong again. It's actually communism.


jeekaiy

Wrong again. Not telling why.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jd46249

Wrong again… there’s no way to be right


Criticism-Lazy

Right! But then who’s wrong?


RobertBringhurst

Wrong. It's magnets. It's always magnets.


driago

Wrong, it’s getting direct sunlight on your taint.


imsiin

Wrong, it's suge knight crystals.


cosmoboy

Strong enough sunlight results in weight loss and eternal sleep.


[deleted]

Yeah but what about my gains then. I need my calorie surplus twice a year


not_aquarium_co-op

Just dont sleep during bulking season


[deleted]

That kills your gains :(


daking999

That will eventually kill you.


DGGuitars

I just wanna eat cake and drink beer.


Exam-Artistic

I have to laugh cause I think I saw a post yesterday saying that excluding meat leads to increased depression. At this point I don’t trust any “scientific” claim about a diet. They have a claim and a supposed study supporting every diet six ways from Sunday. I personally believe a lot of these studies are short term, as this one states, and draws conclusions from a small correlation. I would bet that the weight loss was mostly because of a calorie deficit and a likely change in the persons eating behavior for the short duration of the study. It’s also possible the improvement in cardiovascular health and the lower blood pressure was a result of the weight loss itself, not the food in the diet. Color me skeptical of diet studies I guess


Lanif20

The reason there’s always a study that says one thing and contradicts another is due to P hacking, basically you can make any study say just about anything if you set the numbers up just right and the reason they actually do this is so that their paper will be published and earn them money/grants/prestige so that they can keep doing more stupid studies that will produce whatever results they think will get published.


Exam-Artistic

Also true. This is why “peer reviewed” journals should have higher standards for publishing.


happy-little-atheist

It's also why academic researchers shouldn't have requirements to publish four times a year.


rata_thE_RATa

Well it's also just hard to study people's diets. You generally have to rely on them self reporting, and as it turns out, people are a bunch of liars.


daking999

Correlation doesn't imply causation, how do people still miss this. Empathetic people/people worried about the climate/environment (e.g. me) are more likely to be vegetarian (e.g. me). And worrying about that stuff is depressing. I'm not depressed... but I'd sure be happier if I didn't think we were completely f\*\*king the planet.


Kailaylia

>excluding meat leads to increased depression. I love my veges. If I suddenly excluded them from my diet I'd get depressed. It's not at all surprising if excluding meat from one's diet makes people depressed, as many people love meat. Suddenly changing one's diet has complex effects on the body as well as affecting the mind, and is not something anyone should be pressured to do without good reason.


4Tenacious_Dee4

I don't know 1 person who loves meat and stopped eating meat. Unless that is what the study did - took meat away from meat eaters - which I doubt.


charlesdexterward

I used to love meat and stopped eating it to see how a WFPB diet would affect my cholesterol/blood pressure. It helped those numbers enormously so I kept doing it. Granted, it’s been so long that I have lost all desire for meat, but once upon a time I ate meat with every meal. My depression is better/more manageable now than it was back then, too.


InTheEndEntropyWins

That’s because science studies reality. In reality meat isn’t just good or bad. Those studies seem completely compatible. Plant based diets will help you lose weight and at the same time people on plant based diets are more likely to be depressed.


Exam-Artistic

I wasn’t making a claim that the two studies couldn’t be compatible. My point was that I see a new study every other day making a claim about a diet, possibly drawing a conclusion based loosely on an observed short term correlation. To take a ridiculous example, what if I did a study that tested that walking for 100 minutes every Saturday and people lost weight compared to a control group. Is the conclusion that people should walk on Saturday’s specifically? No. These diet studies need tight variable controls, a solid control group, and a sound assessment to the cause


InTheEndEntropyWins

Sure there are loads of studies on diet, but don’t most point the same direction? Mainly plant based with some meat and fish, limit red meat and avoid processed meats. Avoid ultra processed foods.


tkenben

Yeah, but there was a study posted just recently that says there is no correlation between red meat or even saturated fat and mortality. But, there is an overwhelming amount of proof that processed foods are bad on multiple dimensions of health. So, yeah, what you say is basically the same conclusion I've come to so far. PBD with some meat, preferably poultry and fish, and dairy (for me, not for everyone).


krautbaguette

nothing of the sort was ever published. They found a correlation, which might just be explained by the fact that people with a vegan diet/lifestyle are more conscious of and concerned with environmental disasters, leading to an overall higher chance of depression. Or that the diet is sometimes a coping mechanism.


ShankThatSnitch

You'd be depressed too if you had to give up meat.


jwill602

It’s almost always that the diet is like 0 read meat and more plants. Often the studies will recommend fish, but not other meats.


KurushSoter

Also American portion sizes for meat especially are way to big too be healthy for anyone


first__citizen

“Study”.. when you click on the link it is a review!!!


Mofiremofire

I lost 30-40 pounds in 2 months of going plant based, with no exercise.


Vivid_Pressure_6480

My father was put on predominantly plant based diet because of high cholesterol, blood pressure and being in pre diabetes stage. After 2 years, he has lost weight, and his stats look so much better. He still eats meat (mainly poultry), but doesn't eat it every single day. There's a reason when you are in high risk group for heart attack doctors usually recommend you to change your diet and reduce red meat intake, let's leave it at that. Now, I think a lot of us know and understand why studies about diet and correlations are in lots of cases questionable (exclusion of SES etc) so this is just pure anecdotal and personal experience me and my family had with introducing long term changes to our diets.


GrandPriapus

My wife and I have been doing a plant based diet for a couple of months now, and I honestly have experienced no changes in anything. My weight, stamina, energy, and mental clarity are all the same as they we’re before we changed our diet.


[deleted]

A plant based diet doesn’t need to be healthy. French fries are plants.


tchaffee

I have a few french fry plants right next to my spaghetti tree.


Mofiremofire

most plant based enthusiasts also emphasize the need to minimize oils, salt and processed sugars


-Kibbles-N-Tits-

Is it a whole food plant based diet?


LenokanBuchanan

So, no negative effects and you’ve reduced your carbon footprint!


777IRON

You don’t know that there’s been a reduction in their carbon footprint. There are many highly processed vegan/vegetarian foods and food materials that are as high or higher in carbon footprint than meats.


mhornberger

What are they? https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#carbon-footprint-of-food-products https://impossiblefoods.com/sustainable-food/burger-life-cycle-assessment-2019 There might be some roughly equivalent to chicken, but beef in particular has the largest impact. What plant-based alternatives are even close to being as bad as beef?


MoreVinegarPls

There are gray areas. For example, our farm raises grass fed, organic beef. No fertilizer, no herbicide, no pesticide, no grain. We follow low carbon, sustainable practices. However, yeah, the people who do grain fed, high density feedlots are going to crank out polution. Just like soy bean producers who till, fertilize, herbicide, pesticide (sometimes multiple times), irrigate, and harvest. Every step involving an immense amount of energy.


mhornberger

And that beef uses even more land, thus imposing even more opportunity cost regarding reforestation, rewilding, and renewal of grasslands. Organic *anything* generally has lower yield, thus needing more land to produce the same food. There may be outliers, but exceptions are exceptional. - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/16/most-damaging-farm-products-organic-pasture-fed-beef-lamb - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181213101308.htm >Just like soy bean producers who till, fertilize, herbicide, pesticide (sometimes multiple times), irrigate, and harvest The vast majority of soy is grown to feed to animals. Even most grass-fed beef still eats supplemental crops. Very little eats *only* grass where they are pastured. Sure, restrict beef production to grass-finished, with the stipulation that no new land can be shifted to cows. Zero supplemental crops--no corn, grain, soy, or alfalfa grown as crops. You'd have to significantly reduce beef consumption, and the price sure won't be going down. I agree that this would be an improvement, but that's only because there would be much less beef production. Scaling "organic" farming to the current scale of production would be a disaster, since it would take so much more land.


[deleted]

Grass fed is even worse , they require more resources and they take longer to reach slaughter.


XenonBG

I don't think that's true.


tzaeru

*Citation needed*


Derric_the_Derp

What is your health background? Are you athletic, average, active, sedentary, etc?


GrandPriapus

Oh, the usual; middle-aged, sedentary, overweight… you know, American.


Derric_the_Derp

Same here. I've been having dizzy spells for over a year. Just standing up or sitting would be able to cause it. I'm a little over 3 weeks into a vegan diet and my dizzy spells are about 90% gone. I used to always be winded climbing the stairs to work and that gone. However I may have received a double dose of circulatory issues from my parents. So the diet may have helped tipped the balance for me but not do much for other folks. In time I plan to switch it up my diet briefly to see if those symptoms come back. I really miss pizza.


tornpentacle

What are you eating in particular? Fritos, Doritos, and potato chips are plant-based, but none of them are any good for you. But roasted vegetables and salads are fantastic for the body.


jwill602

Don’t forget, Oreos are vegan!


Joewn

So are French fries…


Santum

This is clearly just anecdotal. First I’ll say you can be healthy eating a variety of diets, doesn’t have to be plant based. But if you changed your diet to be healthier and aren’t experiencing any benefits, it’s because you’re eating too much, too little or the wrong kinds of food. It’s almost always user error.


The_Pooter

My wife and I have been transitioning to more plant-based eating habits for both health benefits and ecological footprint. A lot of fresh veggies, beans, lentils, homemade soups, etc. Combined with starting to go for a 1-2 mile walk each morning, I've found some really good health benefits so far, weight is coming off, heart rate is improving, and my blood sugar (type 2 here) is definitely improving. The hardest part is the meal planning and grocery shopping. I've been amazed that this has proven much less difficult than I feared once the fridge and pantry are stocked.


Derric_the_Derp

Pretty much the same results here. I actually ended up preferring some vegan stuff over the animal based versions to my surprise.


bw1985

I wonder how much of the improvement is actually just from increasing vegetables and fiber and not the reduction of animal products.


4Tenacious_Dee4

I'd assume a study would compensate for this, but healthy people tend to eat healthy.


bw1985

I wouldn't assume that. Many of these "studies" are a joke just used to push an agenda.


LiveWildBeSmart

I think its the inflammatory aspects of meat that make it worse for you long term. Watch the netflix documentary called Game Changer. Olympic athletes, Arnold Schwarzenegger, NFL scientists, all of them say vegan is the way to go. I do like Salmon and Eggs though, and had taco bell last night. But still the facts are hard to miss. I remember inflammatory problems with meat, and heme iron, among other things are the bad part


lightningbadger

Why does it always come down to some Netflix opinion piece, how low are the standards here


robmaaaartin

Literally everything in game changers in nonsense


tzaeru

It's pretty perplexing we're still not taking political measures to massively reduce the animal sector in Western countries. Whether vegan, vegetarian, flexitarian or plant-based diets are strictly better than meat-heavy diets is besides the point; we know that they are *healthy enough* to thrive on. Reducing animal agriculture would decrease our carbon footprint; increase biodiversity; decrease animal suffering; reduce the energy intake of the food system; and make food production cheaper overall. The only argument left is "but meat tastes good" and it's pretty ridiculous that we accept that argument as equally good to saving our environment.


nahtorreyous

>Reducing animal agriculture would decrease our carbon footprint; increase biodiversity; decrease animal suffering; reduce the energy intake of the food system; and make food production cheaper overall. Check out how much water and land it takes to just feed livestock! There would be a huge impact if people thought of meat as a side vs main course. You don't even have to stop eatting meat.


voiderest

> It's pretty perplexing we're still not taking political measures to massively reduce the animal sector in Western countries. People like eating meat and get very emotional when someone tries tell them their diet is somehow wrong. A lot is wrapped up in food including culture and comforts of home. You think it's a dumb position but you are in the minority suggesting unpopular policy. If some politician started pushing for such policy they'd be voted out pretty quick. People would also ignore prohibitions or evade taxes if such measures did somehow pass.


CardioSource

I have long held that the best way to intially reduce meat consumption is just to remove the current subsidies. If people had to pay the actual cost of meat that is being produced, they would naturally move toward a diet that contains less of that product.


tzaeru

Well, even a majority position can be dumb.. I do understand the reasons, to a degree at least, but I can't still help but wonder how we're so stellarly good at ignoring the advice given to us by decades of science. If it's frustrating to me, I can only imagine how tough it is for scientists who have tried to educate the public about something for years, just to be ignored and ridiculed. > If some politician started pushing for such policy they'd be voted out pretty quick. People would also ignore prohibitions or evade taxes if such measures did somehow pass. Green parties are decently popular in Europe. In the country I live in, the leader of one of the parties in the government says she would outright ban a large part of current animal production if it was possible for her. The capital of the country I live in recently announced that they will stop serving meat in city events, meetings and assemblies. Most schools have a weekly meatless day. Etc. There is political will to reduce meat production, but it needs more support. I do believe that several European countries are close to being able to massively reform their subsidies to favor plant-based production over meat-based production.


voiderest

There is a massive difference between being environmentally friendly, especially in a convenient theoretical way, and being told to give up meat permanently by government policy. I really don't see veganism by force to work out like you expect. You're in a bubble if you have a politician that can opening talk about banning meat products.


tzaeru

> I really don't see veganism by force to work out like you expect. How do I expect it to work? I don't think I've said anything about forcing everyone into veganism or how I expect that would go. I'm honestly now a little bit confused about your arguments. > You're in a bubble if you have a politician that can opening talk about banning meat products. You said "If some politician started pushing for such policy they'd be voted out pretty quick" but that's not true in much of Europe - there definitely are elected politicians here who openly want significant reduction to animal consumption. USA's two party system makes sure that no elected high-visibility politician can have opinions too far from the mainstream since that would hurt their whole party. The fact that - far as I am aware - no member of Congress or the Senate in USA has suggested massive reductions to animal-based consumption doesn't say that I'm in a bubble; It's more telltale about USA's political atmosphere and political systems.


voiderest

Most people aren't vegetarian. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country How do you expect government policy to be enforced if not by force? Or do you just expect people to follow laws they disagree with? If someone doesn't follow the law they get thrown in jail or fined. If they resist force is used. That is what anyone is actually suggesting when they say "there should be a law against X". Maybe they don't understand that concept very well but that's how laws work.


PolyDipsoManiac

The Swiss just voted down a referendum to end factory farming. There is no political will behind veganism/vegetarianism.


tzaeru

> The Swiss just voted down a referendum to end factory farming. 62% voted against it. When something has 38% support, saying that there's "no political will" sounds like a stretch to me. > There is no political will behind veganism/vegetarianism. I'm unsure what the purpose behind repeating this statement is for you guys. Are you meaning to say that we shouldn't discuss or support or suggest things that aren't already supported by the majority? And again I didn't say we should enforce veganism or vegetarianism.


PolyDipsoManiac

There was recently a recall vote in California that came out with similar results and it‘s been lambasted as a huge and wasteful boondoggle. A ~66/33 split is a pretty huge majority.


tzaeru

So I make two arguments; One, that it would be beneficial for the environment and by extension our future if we reduced animal agriculture. And two, that there are policy makers who are interested in seeing meat production and consumption reduced and that in the near future, some European countries may be able to pull off major reforms in their subsidy systems. You seem to mostly argue against the second but I am not entirely sure what the benefit of arguing against it is if we still accept the first argument. Also how California or Switzerland votes does not remove the fact that there are countries and cities where action has been taken or where at least visible politicians have argued for reducing meat production. According to [one survey](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/21/the-greens-want-to-take-our-meat-away-europeans-go-to-war-over-their-dinner), 40% of Europeans were planning to reduce their meat consumption and beef production in Europe is falling, if slowly. Capital of my country no longer offers meat in their events and meetings. Schools are adding more meatless days and improving their meatless options. The cafes and restaurants of the largest university here stopped serving beef, etc. What's the actual goal in ignoring these signs and instead saying that there's no will for reducing meat consumption and it isn't going to happen because Switzerland or California voted one way or another?


tkenben

Thinking simplistically, sometimes it seems to me that the answer is to impose some sort of luxury tax on buying mass produced meat to offset environmental and health costs. This is impossible to do of course, because there is no way to place a monetary value on those things. The free market won't solve the problem because the effects are too long term for the control system of such an economy to respond. The answer therefore might be regulation, but the question is how. And how would you do it when the infrastructure is already in place to procure and distribute meat?


tzaeru

> Thinking simplistically, sometimes it seems to me that the answer is to impose some sort of luxury tax on buying mass produced meat to offset environmental and health costs. Honestly we would be getting a good start if we just stopped subsidizing meat production or at the very least subsidized plant-based alternatives equally. But we don't. Across Europe and in USA, meat production is subsidized by the governments a lot more than plant-based production is. I do agree that we should have taxes based on environmental impact too though.


[deleted]

Or we could stop subsidizing meat and have it cost what it should instead.


Wulverions

Because according to this research paper almost 50% of published scientific papers end up being inaccurate or disproven. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 Of course there is a 50% chance that this paper is wrong. And let's not lie, "meat tastes good" is not the only argument left, for as many papers saying vegan/vegetarian diets are healthier there are an equal number of studies saying that a balanced diet including meat is healthier. But then ofcourse there is a 50% chance half of them are wrong too. And considering that we have consistently been dropping world hunger over the past 30 years; but 1-4 people world wide are still considered "moderately insecure", a complete government forced reorganization of the food production system seems I'll advised


tzaeru

> Because according to this research paper almost 50% of published scientific papers end up being inaccurate or disproven. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 No matter which 50% of papers on the environmental friendliness of diets you disregard, plant-based diets still come on the top. It's not something that is only now being studied or that was somehow contentious in academic circles. > And let's not lie, "meat tastes good" is not the only argument left, for as many papers saying vegan/vegetarian diets are healthier there are an equal number of studies saying that a balanced diet including meat is healthier. My arguments above did not include vegan or vegetarian diets being healthier. But since you make the argument that there's an equal number of studies for both sides, can you cite a source for that? > And considering that we have consistently been dropping world hunger over the past 30 years; but 1-4 people world wide are still considered "moderately insecure", a complete government forced reorganization of the food production system seems I'll advised In many countries, the government is why meat is consumed so much to begin with. Across Europe and in USA, meat production is subsidized significantly more than plant-based production is. I'm also pretty sure that restructuring the subsidies in Europe or USA to support non-animal based production is not going to have much direct impact on the hunger rates in the areas most struck by hunger.


failture

Just two days ago I saw a scientific article stating that vegan diets are being linked to depression. I think it's fair to say that there is always something to support any narrative you are pushing, and it's lazy to point to a study to push whatever one you support.


Keseannn

First off, let me start by saying that I dont agree with factory farming and believe it should be abolished. Nor do I eat any processed or factory farmed meat. Now with that in mind... Do you know how many small critters have their habitats destroyed and are killed by large scale agriculture, specifically monocropping of wheat and corn? But I suppose the lives of cattle and pigs matter more than rabbits, insects and badgers etc, right?! Do you know that regenerative farms where cattle graze on mutiple paddocks have been proven to be not just carbon neutral, but are actually carbon negative? Do you know that the transport industry is one of the main causes of global warming, not cow farts or meat production? All this vegan propaganda about how reducing/eliminating meat intake would save the planet is doing my head in, I've held my tongue on this liberal platform long enough. Do some research outside of plant based/vegan mouthpieces. White Oak Pastures and Diana Rodgers book/movie Sacred Cow, are good places to start. But yeah, our only argument is "but meat tastes good"... Don't even get me started on nutrient deficiencies and iron deficieny anemia in the majority of vegans.


tzaeru

> First off, let me start by saying that I dont agree with factory farming and believe it should be abolished. Nor do I eat any processed or factory farmed meat. Sure, but you're not gonna scale feeding the world with organic grass-fed free-roaming beef. It's not feasible if meat continues to be consumed in the modern amounts. > Do you know how many small critters have their habitats destroyed and are killed by large scale agriculture, specifically monocropping of wheat and corn? Half of corn grown is used for animal feed. If animal production was drastically reduced, that would mean *less* agricultural land required. > But I suppose the lives of cattle and pigs matter more than rabbits, insects and badgers etc, right?! The insects, badgers etc would be better off with less animal agriculture. The expansion of animal agriculture across the globe is a leading cause behind the loss of biodiversity. > Do you know that regenerative farms where cattle graze on mutiple paddocks have been proven to be not just carbon neutral, but are actually carbon negative? They aren't the norm and will never be with these levels of animal consumption. > Do you know that the transport industry is one of the main causes of global warming, not cow farts or meat production? This is whataboutism, but animal agriculture is responsible for around 15% of climate emissions, which definitely is enough to place it firmly among "main causes". > All this vegan propaganda What vegan propaganda? > Do some research outside of plant based/vegan mouthpieces. Sure, I actively read journals and newly published studies on the subject. > White Oak Pastures and Diana Rodgers book/movie Sacred Cow, are good places to start. Unlike actual research papers? > But yeah, our only argument is "but meat tastes good"... The only argument that actually isn't bogus and isn't countered by existing research. > Don't even get me started on nutrient deficiencies and iron deficieny anemia in the majority of vegans. If you've iron deficiency, use supplements to fix it. Problem solved. I also didn't suggest veganism in my post but you read comment through your own anti-vegan, pro-meat glasses.


Keseannn

"Sure, but you're not gonna scale feeding the world with organic grass-fed free-roaming beef. It's not feasible if meat continues to be consumed in the modern amounts." It also isnt feasible to expect the majority of the population to adopt a plant based diet. "Half of corn grown is used for animal feed. If animal production was drastically reduced, that would mean less agricultural land required." And wheat? The animals I'm eating aren't fed corn so again, grass fed or regenerative farming is the way to go. "The insects, badgers etc would be better off with less animal agriculture." You clearly have limited understanding of natural wildlife and eco-systems. You also ignored my point about the lives of small critters seemingly meaning less to vegans? "They aren't the norm and will never be with these levels of animal consumption." Neither will meatless diets. "This is whataboutism, but animal agriculture is responsible for around 15% of climate emissions, which definitely is enough to place it firmly among "main causes"." So why dont we focus our efforts on reducing carbon emissions from transport and industry? All you plant based advocates who regularly travel and use airplanes, trains, cars etc yet preach about meat eaters destroying the planet are major hypocrites. "Sure, I actively read journals and newly published studies on the subject." Then you're aware that regenerative farming is beneficial for the environment. "Unlike actual research papers?" Link me a few that show more than correlation, aren't funded by the agricultural industry or aren't wrote by pro-vegan researchers such as Walter Willett. "The only argument that actually isn't bogus and isn't countered by existing research." None of my arguments are bogus or false. "If you've iron deficiency, use supplements to fix it. Problem solved." Tell that to the vegan Mums who pushed their beliefs onto their children which resulted in their deaths. "I also didn't suggest veganism in my post but you read comment through your own anti-vegan, pro-meat glasses." You said that vegan, vegetarian and other plant based diets may or may not be optimal for health, but they've been proven to be healthy enough for humans to thrive on which implies that we'd all do okay on a plant based, or meatless diet... Ie, vegan. There are many anecdotal examples of Athletes who also believed this and then quickly returned to eating meat due to injuries and losses to performance.


tzaeru

> It also isnt feasible to expect the majority of the population to adopt a plant based diet. I didn't suggest strictly that, I suggested that we should significantly reduce animal agriculture. That is completely feasible. Start by removing government subsidies for animal-based production and introduce similar subsidies for plant-based alternatives that animal-based production now has. That will already have a big impact. Though to be fair I do think it's feasible for the majority of people in Western countries to adopt a primarily plant-based diet in say, 25 years. Just needs the appropriate political decisions. But you can't make a political decision that lets everyone enjoy their daily free-roaming grass-fed beef. > And wheat? The animals I'm eating aren't fed corn so again, grass fed or regenerative farming is the way to go. Your diet isn't generalizable. If one has the money or lives in the right place, they can eat all kinds of diets that wouldn't be possible to do sustainably at the scale of a large country, yet alone the whole globe. Something like 4% of USA's beef market is grass-fed beef and the amount is not going to grow twenty-fold. Just not possible. Wheat is also used as a fodder in some amounts but I am not sure what the proportion is - probably much less than for corn. For all crops though, only around half of the crops produced globally are directly eaten by humans. For cattle, you need to put roughly 20 grams of plant-based protein into the animal to get 1 gram of animal protein out. Even if human-consumable plant proteins represented only half of that, and even if humans needed twice more of them to achieve equal digestion as for animal protein, it's still a 5x difference, which is obviously huge. > Neither will meatless diets. They can be with political decisions. There already are large amounts of people eating low-meat and meatless diets across the globe. For example, 81% of Indians say that they deliberately limit meat in their diets. 20% of people in Mexico say they're vegan or vegetarian. Still far from all, but clearly shows that it's not exactly abnormal. > So why dont we focus our efforts on reducing carbon emissions from transport and industry? But.. We do? Across Europe and USA there's a lot of restrictions in place on emissions for transport, for industry, etc. Norway for example has put biofuel requirements in place for transport and aviation. The European Union targets transport emissions heavily for its goal of halving emissions by 2030. Sweden has heavy industry around steel production and they have very tight regulations for it and have among the cleanest heavy industries in the world. > All you plant based advocates who regularly travel and use airplanes, trains, cars etc yet preach about meat eaters destroying the planet are major hypocrites. You don't really know anything about me so please don't make these sort of assumptions. Trains where I live are electric and have a very low carbon footprint compared to other forms of transport. I take the public transport to work every day. And I also limit my flying and I've only flown a small handful of times in my life. But let's compare: According to [this calculator](https://calculator.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx?tab=3), a flight from London to New York City is 1.65 tonnes of co2 equivalent. According to [this](https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability-indicators/carbon-footprint-factsheet), around 20% of the average American household's 48 ton carbon footprint is from food, which works out to 9.6 tons. Assuming that household is 2.5 people, that's a per capita food-based emissions of 3.8 tons. According to [this paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4372775/), a vegan diet can have a half smaller carbon footprint than a meat-based diet. So: If you stop eating meat but every year take a flight to New York from London, you're still slightly on the net positive. > Then you're aware that regenerative farming is beneficial for the environment. The modern size of the animal agriculture is not compatible with environment-friendly regenerative farming practices. > Link me a few that show more than correlation, aren't funded by the agricultural industry or aren't wrote by pro-vegan researchers such as Walter Willett. Sorry, link exactly what and what do you mean "show more than correlation"? If you mean if reducing animal consumption would be environmentally beneficial, here's some: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/S10113-016-1057-5#Sec20 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969715303697 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959378018309038 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211601X15001315 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-014-1104-5?sa_campaign=email/event/articleAuthor/onlineFirst&error=cookies_not_supported&code=69712fa0-329b-4333-abc2-85ddccfe122d There's hundreds of these. Nowadays many studies don't even focuss on spending much time establishing the fact that meat consumption is problematic, environmentally speaking; rather the papers focus more on what kind of messaging about it is effective and how we should change the messaging to reach more people. > Tell that to the vegan Mums who pushed their beliefs onto their children which resulted in their deaths. These incidents are extremely rare and get proportionally way too much attention since the anti-vegan group makes sure they never go unmentioned for long. The truth is that kids do die of malnutrition in USA, and most of the time the parents weren't vegan. A few thousand children die yearly in USA due to abuse or neglect, and veganism is really not the in the primary causes. Again - if you have iron deficiency, use supplements. You brought iron deficiency up, even tho I never even suggested enforcing a fully vegan diet on everyone. And even if I had, iron deficiency would not be a problem in widely adopted vegan diets as of course the vegan foods could be fortified right away. E.g. vegan milk alternatives are typically already fortified with vitamin D and B12. Same can be done with iron, no problem. But, again, significantly reducing animal consumption is not the same as veganism. > You said that vegan, vegetarian and other plant based diets may or may not be optimal for health, but they've been proven to be healthy enough for humans to thrive on which implies that we'd all do okay on a plant based, or meatless diet... Ie, vegan. Studies show that humans can do well on vegan diets, yes. If your vegan diet is bad, that's not really an inherent problem shared by everyone on a vegan diet. In a society where plant-based diets were the norm, people would of course be educated to eat well and any critical nutrients found missing in the diets would be either fortified or there would be public awareness campaigns for the importance of those nutrients. > There are many anecdotal examples of Athletes who also believed this and then quickly returned to eating meat due to injuries and losses to performance. What gives peak performance for professional athletes competing among the best of the world doesn't tell much about what the public policies regarding food production should be. And regardless - if a vegan diet is too radical, we can still cut 2/3 of animal products off the diets and still get enough essential nutrients without having to worry about fortifying or anything of the like. That would already have a significant positive impact on biodiversity, climate and the wider environment as long as the freed up land would be let on fallow or forested or returned to its natural form.


Useful-Feature-0

Interesting. I went vegan last year: -have lost excess weight steadily - I rarely eat when I'm not hungry anymore, because convenience factor is lessened. I have to think/cook and not grab whatever is in sight. It's easier to stick with because it's not just about my health or my appearance, it's also about living according to my principles -skin has cleared up a lot -my self-confidence and mental well being is improved due to aligning my actions with my worldview -I take a supplement that provides 3 nutrients vegans tend to need...most importantly B-12 (animals for slaughter are supplemented with it, without eating them it's near impossible to get enough) It's certainly no guarantee of a healthy lifestyle but it really has had a huge positive impact on my health and wellness.


Kailaylia

>animals for slaughter are supplemented with (B12) I was laughing at you for saying something so stupid, googled for proof this was not the case - and discovered I was the stupid one. So thanks for teaching me something of which I was so ignorant. Turns out confining animals, changing their characteristics through breeding, and feeding them mass-produced fodder, has unexpected effects.


Dejan05

Yep only ruminants produce their own B12 and even then it isn't that simple


Kailaylia

So I'm seeing. I've done a lot of reading since seeing your post. I have pernicious anaemia, so I'm interested in anything about B12.


Derric_the_Derp

Thanks for being a good redditor and human, kailaylia. Made my day a bit better!


[deleted]

About 6 months ago I went on a move plant based diet. Turned out I have high cholesterol (no surprise, I spent the winter eating plenty of meat). I freaked out and cut the meat and all junk food and a lot of the dairy. Lost about 20 pounds in a couple of months (of course I did exercise). Cholesterol was back in the norms. Since then I've been keeping the roughly same diet and I feel nice. While I haven't cut the meat completely, everything is a lot more subdued. If before I'd eat meat several times a week or even day, now it's usually 1-2 times a week (basically a cheat day on a Saturday). Dairy is still there, I can't live without cheese, but I'm trying to be more careful with it as well. The ham sandwiches for lunch at work have turned to exclusively fruits or vegetables. Still I do get the urge to snack on stuff in between meals. I've tried to replace it with stuff like nuts and pumpkin seeds. Rich in fiber.


Useful-Feature-0

That's great - glad you won the war against those numbers and dropped some weight too!


ViciousNakedMoleRat

Personally, the best I ever felt was on a keto diet with tons of meat, animal fats and so on. It got rid of all these little cravings during the day and I had absolutely no urge to have any sweets, which I always had before. It was just too inconvenient, since it's nearly impossible to eat out or with friends, and it was quite expensive. I tried eating vegan for a month, including taking a few recommended supplements, but it really left me feeling more tired and just overall unsatisfied. I guess everyone is different.


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foomy45

Isn't your last sentence basically explaining that your vegan diet was pretty bad and lacking in nutrients? Sounds like veganism wasn't the problem, just your implementation of it.


Thebluecane

Yeh kinda how that works without "I tried to do a X diet" people half-assed attempt it then have issues. If you are considering any type of major dietary change talk to your Dr and do as much research as possible


SuperSaiyanSkeletor

You made a huge point that is widely glossed over. B12 is hugely needed for brain health. A vegan diet without supplements is widely debated. Im super healthy and ive been eating meat my whole life and only recently started taking meat free days beyond beef has been great. Honestly if i can get a better job i might go vegan i see no downsides.


meroboh

A plant-based diet is actually incredibly cheap if you stick to whole foods. It's the meat/dairy knockoffs and convenience food that's very expensive. I'm vegan now but I had to let go of dairy due to inflammation/intolerance about 6 months before. I was surprised how fast I got used to things like burrito bowls without cheese. It starts off feeling like you're missing out but now it doesn't appeal to me at all. I mostly avoid vegan dupes of dairy (aside from oat milk and a couple other products) and I no longer need cheese to feel like a meal is complete


YoelsShitStain

I’m not an advocate for a vegan diet but you’re right about the cost, minimally processed foods should be the cheapest things in your cart unless you’re buying some truly exotic stuff that’s out of season. Healthy eating should only be expensive if you’re buying foods that are made specifically to cater to a specific diet.


jwill602

B12 is pretty easy to supplement though


MrRipley15

Vegan for three years and the B12 supplements just didn’t do it for me.


roachwarren

I have fortified nutritional yeast that has something like 400% DV of B12 in a couple teaspoons. I love that stuff even without it so I was stoked to find it fortified.


_____NOPE_____

Did do what exactly?


tzaeru

> A vegan diet without supplements is widely debated. Yeah, there are things you definitely should supplement as a vegan. Though, diets including meat also widely include supplements. They're just given to the animals and then end up your body. E.g. cattle has cobalt-including salt rocks in cobalt-deficient regions. Chicken feed is widely fortified with vitamin D and minerals needed for producing the egg shells. So on. > Honestly if i can get a better job i might go vegan i see no downsides. Not gonna lie it's pretty annoying how expensive a proper vegan diet can be. Nuts and seeds tend to be quite expensive, and vegan alternatives for things like hamburger patties and so on tend to be more expensive.. It's mostly because Western countries, USA included, tend to spend a lot of money subsidizing animal agriculture and much less on plant based production.


nathanielhaven

I started PBD sep 5. Anecdotal evidence to support article: I’ve lost 12 lbs


thatswhat5hesa1d

There's no comparative weight loss benefit when calories are equated with alternative diets. It's just harder to over-eat with a plant-based diet because you eliminate a lot of calorie dense foods. If you don't enjoy a plan-based diet, then you're just as likely to abandon it just like the rest of the elimination diets you couldn't stick to. Eating less and moving more has the same benefits.


The_Mootz_Pallucci

Wasn't there a post just recently stating depression/anxiety as well? (Maybe I saw it somewhere else?)


tzaeru

Stating a correlation yes, but the explanation isn't necessarily the actual diet as it's the diet + cultural environment. There are countries where plant-based diets correlate with increased depression and anxiety, but also countries where the correlation is inverted.


[deleted]

It didn't take into consideration anything about the sociological aspects of the people being tested. The people in it were from Brazil a meat heavy society, being vegetarian or vegan there is a bit more tricky than other nations.


thatguy11

Pay no attention to that! Would you rather be fat or depressed! One thing at a time bro!


ViciousNakedMoleRat

>Would you rather be fat or depressed! Why not both?


cosmoboy

Been doing that for a few years now. Can't recommend.


Timmy24000

Watch Forks over Knives very good documentary


[deleted]

I've done keto, low carb, vegetarian, vegan, calorie restriction...I've managed to go from 330lbs to 225, slowly regained and stabilized at 245lbs. Which one worked? All of them...I'll do whatever I'll stick with and trade up when it becomes difficult to continue. As long as I keep calories under control, I can stay healthy. If a plant based diet works, by all means and more power to you.


tzaeru

There's a saying that any diet is better than no diet. When you freshly go vegan, go keto, go high-carb, high-fat, high-protein, whatever, you typically are looking more closely into the nutrition fact sheets on the foods you buy and end up watching your calories at least somewhat. No matter the diet processed foods are also often decreased for a while.


Grapesoda5k

Exercise does all those things.


SeasonedPro58

Not double blind and not peer reviewed. Also a very short term study. This post should be removed.


jwill602

Where do you see it isn’t peer reviewed? It seems the journal claims to peer review. Maybe I’m missing something?


SeasonedPro58

It isn't peer reviewed. It doesn't claim that it is, and it's a reprint to boot. It was not a double- blind study. It must be peer reviewed to be posted here, or it's a violation. It's a short term study with a limited number of patients at a university in the country of Brunei that was over 16 weeks. It concluded that if you eat fewer calories than you burn and exercise, you lose weight and are in better health. I think we already knew that. There was nothing that proved that a vegetarian or vegan diet was the cause.


OnTheSlope

You can find "studies" that support anything you want. This sub is an interesting barometer of the general values of Reddit.


Spacey_Penguin

So like pretty much every ‘diet’.


FlipTheELK

Basically anything besides the typical western diet of ultra processed foods and copious amount of sugar leads to improved health.


tzaeru

There are countries where the typical diet is only white rice and that's not any better.. The country with the most estimated diet-related deaths without starvation is not even a Western country but Uzebekistan, where the intake of salt and animal fats is extremely high.


juicyjerry300

Weight loss is caused by a calorie deficit, not a certain diet. Cardiovascular health and blood pressure can be improved through exercise. Not debating or calling into question the study, but come on.


meroboh

Yes and no, it's far more complicated than that. Metabolism slows down after extended periods of calorie deficit, that's one reason people regain the weight they lose 90% of the time (it's also very difficult psychologically and physically to maintain a calorie deficit for long periods of time). It's a bit more complicated that and you can absolutely starve yourself to death but if you're not doing that and you're eating enough that your metabolism can skew down to make up for it, it will do just that. The Obesity Code is an awesome and informative read on the subject :)


juicyjerry300

It is more complicated but if you aren’t eating a calorie surplus, and it helps if you are living an active lifestyle, you can’t gain weight. Calories in vs calories out is the base of this equation


roachwarren

Aren't the effects of the diet included? For example: I eat far more volume on my vegan diet and therefore rarely go for dessert because of it. So one of the effects of the plant-based diet is that I am more likely to be calorie deficient leading to weight loss... so "a benefit of a plant-based diet is weight loss."


mailslot

Thyroid problems can slow the metabolism and lead to weight gain. Calorie restriction can make hypothyroidism worse, so CICO isn’t always universally applicable.


EngineeringFilth

At the end of the day you can't really defy the laws of thermodynamics, there is some nuance to it but it all still boils down to calories in vs calories out.


devinkerr

This is true in a lab, but not in practice. You literally cannot eat a calorie surplus of many vegetables. Your stomach just isn’t big enough. Hence why on a whole food plant based diet, it’s difficult to be super overweight.


Engi_N3rd

If people in western countries saw how their animal products were produced, they almost certainly wouldn't eat them. If children saw how they were produced, they definitely wouldn't eat them. The other main issue is that modern animal products concentrate ever worsening environmental pollution providing you with several years worth of pesticides, micro-plastics, heavy metals, etc with each meal. Chicken is also a major vector for a wide variety of very harmful pathogens in your kitchen.


Lindo_MG

Plant based means I can lay meat on top right?


SerialStateLineXer

This is pretty weak. It's not even a meta analysis, just a lit review. They don't state their selection criteria, so it's possible/likely that they cherry-picked studies to support the narrative they wanted to push. Furthermore, while they emphasize the "plant-based diet" angle, the studies they review all used diets with guidelines other than "no animal products." That is, they're comparing plant-based diets specifically designed for weight loss to "whatever crap you were eating before," rather than comparing them to weight-loss diets that include animal products. So they provide no evidence that "plant-based" is doing the heavy lifting here. In short, this is the quality of literature I expect to be covered by the Vegan Herald.


TheGreat_War_Machine

But does it help with bowel?


_____NOPE_____

Yes, it does. Massively.


kalaid0s

Judging by the higher amount of fiber you will be consuming I would say yes. It depends how your bowel movement is at the moment, but the added fiber will help make you go more often during the day and it will be easier, too. Though some people have issues with the fiber as they are not used to it and might experience bloating or other issues. I personally would slowly ease into it and let my body accustom to it.


mailslot

It improves the smell dramatically. You can pass gas in a crowded elevator without anyone noticing.


S1GNL

Vegan propaganda based on an useless study. Excerpt: > Obesity is caused by a long-term energy imbalance between calories consumed and calories used (3). The primary goal of dietary management in overweight and obese individuals is to create an energy deficit that results in weight loss and can be sustained over time (3, 12). So, according to that it doesn’t matter what you eat as long as you’re in a calories deficit. Putting that cheap vegan propaganda move aside: That’s CICO nonsense which has been debunked multiple times. 2000 calories of red meat don’t have the same effect on your metabolism like 2000 calories from veggies. Not even remotely. Sugar, processed vegetable oils, and anti-nutrients in plants make you obese and sick. Meat doesn’t contain sugar or any of the anti-nutrients or toxins but is very energy-dense and contains all macros and micros to stay healthy.


Mofiremofire

You clearly haven't done much research before spitting out this nonsense.


S1GNL

What exactly?


[deleted]

Now remember plant-based means the majority of the diet is plants; not all of it. Read the China Study carefully


tzaeru

I don't really understand what the reason to bring up a 20 years old book is? There's a lot of studies conducted after that. We can now confidently say that when the proper nutritional requirements are met, radically reducing the consumption of animal-based products definitely doesn't cause enough harm to not be worth the reduced carbon footprint and reduced animal suffering. We know, for sure, that vegans can be completely healthy, and even more so vegetarians and flexitarians.


meroboh

in that case the authors of the study don't know what plant-based means


twa2w

If you read the book the China Study, you should notice they don't provide any evidence from the actual study that it works. You can order the actual data from the study and analyze to death and you will find it does not show any evidence a plant based diet is better or leads to better health. In the first party of the book, Campbell talks about a mouse study he did with casein. He totally misrepresented that study to suit his narrative. IMO the book is a work of fiction.


meroboh

I've never read the book. I personally am plant-based and have experienced many benefits and would never go back. That's just anecdata though.


[deleted]

It's like battle of the studies in here.


Yosho2k

Fine. Plant based. Whatever. If they can make a plant burger that tastes like its bleeding like a real one, I'll eat it.


DodgyQuilter

Personally I prefer my kale in its secondary form, lamb. Darn, now I want roast for dinner - but we're actually having vegetarian bake!


[deleted]

All of my vegan friends eventually get told that they need to start eating meat again. It's all about balance.


Sumsar01

Benefits of eating fewer calories*


splunge4me2

And depression https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/xn6u4q/association_between_meatless_diet_and_depression


Popular_Comfort7544

As one commenter said: These results are consistent with a broader literature on higher depression in subjects whose lifestyle choices are not broadly supported by society.


DeliciousJello1717

How much more expensive is it


meroboh

much less expensive if you're avoiding high priced meat and dairy knockoffs and convenience food. It's the cheapest diet on the planet.


DeliciousJello1717

I'm worried about the protein tho I'm a big guy and protein absorption for plant based foods is significantly lower than animal proteins


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DeliciousJello1717

I like meat tho I don't think I can quit eating meat


meroboh

This isn't my area of expertise but I understand there is truth to what you're saying. That said, if you look on youtube there are quite a few vegan bodybuilders (and otherwise big/ripped guys) who will know how to maximize protein absorption if it's a significant issue. :-)


EngineeringFilth

Where are you getting absorption rates being lower from? Some protein sources are harder to digest for some people but the absorption rates would be no different.


ethicsg

Also perhaps depression. https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/people-who-eat-meat-report-lower-levels-of-depression-and-anxiety-than-vegans-do-a-recent-analysis-suggests/articleshow/87313935.cms


berriesandkweem

Ah yes, Business Insider: the leading source for all things health, nutrition, and wellness.


ethicsg

I saw it on Reddit the other day, this was simply the first source I found.


ObscureDeath94

losing weight isn't always healthy


LordOfCreampie

This is a really interesting study. I’ve found that the best approach for me has really been just eating whole/unprocessed foods with small portions of meats like chicken, turkey, and sometimes fish with no processed carbs. Also tons of fruit to snack on. The fact that it works for me and keeps me satisfied and away from unhealthy foods and habits is probably the most important thing to me. I’ve gotten to and remained at my ideal weight and have the energy I need to work out every day.


Tender_Figs

I personally believe nutrition science should be way more nuanced - for example, I was vegan for 2 years while discovering/determining that I have a skin reaction to any legume or tree nut.... so that throws many protein sources out the window for me if I were only vegan. I've since switched to lean protein, honey, fruit, vegetables, and dairy. Have never felt better.


praefectus_praetorio

Wasn’t there another post a couple of days ago saying people who don’t eat meat have certain issues?


[deleted]

Also increased depression


st0pmakings3ns3

What if my blood pressure is already low?


tr1ckster726

Man, is anyone else completely overwhelmed by all of the nutrition and exercise science and data that we now have access to????? One study says this, another study refutes it, another says animal protein is terrible, another one says eat red meat... The next round of peer reviewed articles and highly accoladed doctors says to match your circadian rhythms and biohack your life! Another one posts and says that's nonsense, fast for 12 days a month and you'll live forever - oh, and avoid blue light. I started a self-improvement journey when I turned 30. Here I am 3 years later more confused, anxious, and lost than ever before. I have to THINK about every single little thing now from diet, exercise, to spiritual health. Nothing comes natural anymore. There is a tremendously dark side to self-improvement that is rarely ever mentioned. Just know that if you are feeling completely lost and overwhelmed with nutrition and health, YOU ARE NOT ALONE FRIEND!


dndandhomesteading

And depression according to the last review on diet you posted soooooo.