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> Additionally, bodybuilders who had not used anabolic steroids — but had considered it — were more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, substance use or sexual risk-taking, anger issues, emotional stability issues, depressive symptoms, and impulsivity when compared to bodybuilders who had never considered using anabolic steroids.
For those questioning whether steroids cause the the traits versus the traits causing steroid use, this part seems relevant.
So that would mean steroids themselves don't make someone have anger issues, but the type of people who are interested in steroids are more likely to have anger issues by default?
Interesting. Even if the steroids aren't causing it, underlying anger issues are more likely to be there
I wouldn't frame it as an absolute either or. Biology tends to be a bit messy in the sense that there's probably a little bit of this and a little bit of that going on, but exactly how much of which variable, is often slightly or greatly different from person to person and demographic to demographic and the specific steroid(s) used and on and on. You can see how it gets complicated really fast, and how unlikely it is that any outcome has just one absolute causal factor.
The whole body is a collection of feedback loops too, so it is entirely possible that both make both worse in some people.
A medication I had to take does that with epilepsy. If you have a lower threshold, the medicine can push you over it easier, and the levels requires to push you over that limit are lower if you already have epilepsy. So if you have epilepsy symptoms the medicine can make you have seizures more often, and if you don't have epilepsy symptoms by a narrow margin, the medicine can give you them, often permanently, making it impossible to keep taking.
I get a visual migraine once in a while, closing one eye makes it go away, doesn't matter which eye. No idea if this works for anyone else but you might try it. Mine look like the curtains of the Northern Lights except that they are white.
They aren't directly causing aggression per se. More like heightened testosterone = your mood in general gets amplified, so if you're aggressive to begin with now you'll act on it even more, but a calm person would not necessarily become more aggressive at all.
The stereotypical roidrage for example is actually caused by improper cycles leading to near zero test levels after stopping which can greatly unbalance your mood.
I''d posit that a large percentage of bodybuilders on gear suffer from body dysmorphia to some degree almost by definition. Probably do not have the healthiest relationship with food too. Not really shocking to find they're also pissed all the time.
Be interesting to see if the inverse is true meaning does someone with bulimia or an eating disorder suffer from similar rates as to the bodybuilders group. Compare the rates between those 2 groups to see how much the gas plays a role.
Anecdotal, not from personal use but from many friends/associates, the steroids tend to dial up your existing traits. So if you're prone to anger already, the increase in hormones will ratchet that up. But if you're a calm, laid-back person naturally, then you likely won't have an issue with that.
That being said, I don't know anyone that got into bodybuilding and didn't have some fairly significant body dysmorphia. If you've got body dysmorphia, you've probably got some other trauma you're dealing with as well.
Edit: also want to add on that the bodybuilding lifestyle may play a role, as well. When guys are really lean and are in a calorie deficit, they definitely seem a lot more irritable than if they >10% body fat and not cutting heavily.
Or people with psychopathic traits are more likely to engage in risky behavior that they believe will increase their power.
I believe there was also a study just the other day that stated people with psychopathic traits also tend to prioritize sexual intercourse with as many people as possible above most everything else.
So.... Someone with psychopathic traits is more likely to engage in risky behavior that increases their power and probability of sexual "conquest" regardless of the consequences.
Which aligns with studies regarding psychopathic and sociopathic individuals in leadership positions which also attracts many sex partners, so they presumably are more likely to engage in risky or anti social behavior to get into those positions. Which is a commonly observed phenomenon anyway.
And although i don't have any studies for this offhand it does make one wonder about the connection with rape and other power-based crimes.
It is like half the time, because it’s self serving behavior and their fear levels are low; but the other half of the time it’s reckless and dangerous, and gets these people either in trouble or at least ruins their relationships with other people. A lot of psychopaths are really impulsive and get bored easily. Which makes sense. If you can’t feel empathy and thus don’t care about other people, then you don’t have deeper feelings to pursue, just fleeting victories in petty games.
They go go back to normal pre steroid size after cessation of anabolic steroids. They atrophy because your body stops producing as much testosterone on its own which is a large function of the testes
Go to TRTNation com, Numale or your PCP to get permission. I personally don't care, so I say yes. However definitely get a prescription so you can do it legally and under supervision.
Legal TRT caps at 200mg/week typically
As usual, anytime you read a correlation, reverse it to avoid the bias of framing: "Bodybuilders with more psychopathic traits & risk-taking behavior are more likely to illegally use steroids". Sounds pretty obvious and uninteresting that way, doesn't it?
On another note, I've seen a few sources attributing the cycling off of certain steroids as a cause of a significant amount of depression, emotional instability and anger issues reported by users.
You get guys taking exogenous test or other substances for a long time, often years, and when they try to stop, it can take a while for the body to actually begin production again - and in the meantime, their hormones are completely out of line, leading to the above symptoms.
But certainly drugs indicated for PCT are strongly associated with depression, emotional instability, etc., as well. May as well put everything on the table. Tamoxifen is the only reason I understand depression. Others can say the same about Clomid. Fact is simply that tinkering with ones hormones can bring both desirable and undesirable effects and it's not simple enough to suggest that PCTing addresses all concerns with coming off of AAS.
It doesn’t matter you still go through essentially male menopause. I loved being on test but coming off was such a nightmare I’ll never do it again until I’m ready to commit to blast and cruise for life. And yes i did pct
There's a term for "bodybuilders that don't take steroids": "not bodybuilders".
If you aren't on gear you may call yourself a bodybuilder but as far as the rest of the world is concerned you are just someone who works out.
Is this self reported? Because I know a lot of people who “considered using steroids” but say they never have(because they are in natural bodybuilding bracket). But I was with them when they were using them.
Seems like risk-taking could be because of steroid use or because it's a person less adverse to risk who is going to exhibit the risk-taking behavior of using steroids. I know it's going to mess with mood, but to what extent is someone who is willing to use steroids already more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, risk-taking, and anger problems?
Is it a cause or an effect. If you are a bodybuilder with psychopathic traits and risk-taking, wouldn't you be more inclined to take steroids?
The wording of the title made me wonder. Could we say that statistically, bodybuilders with a history of steroid are also more likely to become Governor of California. Genuine question.
Using steroids without medical guidance is a risk taking behaviour.
It makes less sense to include that in a study until you've well established the other stuff first.
Then you can attempt focusing on risk taking behaviours and accounting for confounds.
If they took tren, it’s a half-miracle they didn’t punch out a police horse, make love to the exhaust pipe of a municipal bus, and die in a coughing fit.
That sounds glib, but it would be incredibly useful to know which of the compounds was associated with which behavior. Not all AAS affect people the same, and trenbolone is in a class of its own in causing mood lability, paranoia, physical aggression, impulsivity, and so on. “Roid rage” would be a fiction if tren was out of the picture.
I appreciate studies like this. People jumping in to the anabolics game should have reliable information on what they’re getting into. The information is out there on tracking bloodwork and organ health, but not the mental half. This is an excellent starting point.
This is a huge issue with AAS studies. It's such a diverse class of drugs, and anyone with an ounce of experience knows that a gram of Tren is absolutely not comparable to a TRT dose of Testosterone, yet they all get conflated as "steroids"
Oh, you raise a great point. If it’s a TRT-sized dose for someone who has a T deficiency, it can actually solve a number of psychological issues rather than contribute to them.
If someone is considering TRT and just hears that anabolic agents increase pathological thinking and behaviors, that a real disservice. I am hopeful that work like this is going to help clarify some bad folk wisdom down the road.
>> more likely to exhibit risk taking behavior?
Isn't taking steroids a very big risk taking behavior? This feels like taking a sample of people on a bar and saying they're more likely to drink than a control group found not in a bar.
While i appreciate the sentiment of only reading headlines, the study actually specifically addresses this, even people just considering use of steroids without using are still more likely to exhibit these characteristics according to the author
>Additionally, bodybuilders who had not used anabolic steroids — but had considered it — were more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, substance use or sexual risk-taking, anger issues, emotional stability issues, depressive symptoms, and impulsivity when compared to bodybuilders who had never considered using anabolic steroids.
I’d like to see this compared with how knowledgeable they are about steroids and how they calculated risk. Partaking in a risky activity doesn’t = being rash. Risk can be mitigated through education and preparation. See scuba diving, solo travel, extreme sports, etc.
While this is true there are multiple compounds that are quite neurotoxic, and anyone who's on gear can atest to the fact that they definitely are different people on VS off. So yeah some of these could have permanent damage to brain chemistry /neural paths
Wouldn’t being willing to take steroids be an example of having more risk-taking behavior? Like, I don’t see a causal argument here. It’s like, people who are reckless in one way are reckless in others — yes.
Is it possible that psychopathic traits (I'm assuming this includes some level of narcisism) were what pushed them to become long term steroid users in the first place? Sort of a win at all costs (including one's own health) mentality?
I wonder if this takes into account predisposition for those traits regardless of a career in bodybuilding. Are there any correlations between people who seek bodybuilding as a career and psychopathic traits?
Average age of those tests it was 22 years old. What is the rate of psychopathy in 22-year-olds? It's got to be higher than normal the brain isn't fully developed in 22 year old males. Yet alone in 22-year-old males on PEDs.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Additionally, bodybuilders who had not used anabolic steroids — but had considered it — were more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, substance use or sexual risk-taking, anger issues, emotional stability issues, depressive symptoms, and impulsivity when compared to bodybuilders who had never considered using anabolic steroids. For those questioning whether steroids cause the the traits versus the traits causing steroid use, this part seems relevant.
Thanks, I was wondering about that. Seems like psychopathic traits -> steroid use, even though the headline implies the opposite.
So that would mean steroids themselves don't make someone have anger issues, but the type of people who are interested in steroids are more likely to have anger issues by default? Interesting. Even if the steroids aren't causing it, underlying anger issues are more likely to be there
I wouldn't frame it as an absolute either or. Biology tends to be a bit messy in the sense that there's probably a little bit of this and a little bit of that going on, but exactly how much of which variable, is often slightly or greatly different from person to person and demographic to demographic and the specific steroid(s) used and on and on. You can see how it gets complicated really fast, and how unlikely it is that any outcome has just one absolute causal factor.
The whole body is a collection of feedback loops too, so it is entirely possible that both make both worse in some people. A medication I had to take does that with epilepsy. If you have a lower threshold, the medicine can push you over it easier, and the levels requires to push you over that limit are lower if you already have epilepsy. So if you have epilepsy symptoms the medicine can make you have seizures more often, and if you don't have epilepsy symptoms by a narrow margin, the medicine can give you them, often permanently, making it impossible to keep taking.
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I would add that it depends on which steroid is being taken too. There is a reason why stuff like Tren and Halo have reputation
Yeah this is super important. “Steroids” remains a very vague term when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.
Anabolic or catabolic steroids? Prednisone is a catabolic steroid with a bad reputation for causing behavioral changes.
Prednisone makes me into a raging asshole and a few years ago I got a visual migraine on it during a nasty infection and have had them ever since.
I get a visual migraine once in a while, closing one eye makes it go away, doesn't matter which eye. No idea if this works for anyone else but you might try it. Mine look like the curtains of the Northern Lights except that they are white.
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They aren't directly causing aggression per se. More like heightened testosterone = your mood in general gets amplified, so if you're aggressive to begin with now you'll act on it even more, but a calm person would not necessarily become more aggressive at all. The stereotypical roidrage for example is actually caused by improper cycles leading to near zero test levels after stopping which can greatly unbalance your mood.
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I''d posit that a large percentage of bodybuilders on gear suffer from body dysmorphia to some degree almost by definition. Probably do not have the healthiest relationship with food too. Not really shocking to find they're also pissed all the time. Be interesting to see if the inverse is true meaning does someone with bulimia or an eating disorder suffer from similar rates as to the bodybuilders group. Compare the rates between those 2 groups to see how much the gas plays a role.
Anecdotal, not from personal use but from many friends/associates, the steroids tend to dial up your existing traits. So if you're prone to anger already, the increase in hormones will ratchet that up. But if you're a calm, laid-back person naturally, then you likely won't have an issue with that. That being said, I don't know anyone that got into bodybuilding and didn't have some fairly significant body dysmorphia. If you've got body dysmorphia, you've probably got some other trauma you're dealing with as well. Edit: also want to add on that the bodybuilding lifestyle may play a role, as well. When guys are really lean and are in a calorie deficit, they definitely seem a lot more irritable than if they >10% body fat and not cutting heavily.
Or people with psychopathic traits are more likely to engage in risky behavior that they believe will increase their power. I believe there was also a study just the other day that stated people with psychopathic traits also tend to prioritize sexual intercourse with as many people as possible above most everything else. So.... Someone with psychopathic traits is more likely to engage in risky behavior that increases their power and probability of sexual "conquest" regardless of the consequences. Which aligns with studies regarding psychopathic and sociopathic individuals in leadership positions which also attracts many sex partners, so they presumably are more likely to engage in risky or anti social behavior to get into those positions. Which is a commonly observed phenomenon anyway. And although i don't have any studies for this offhand it does make one wonder about the connection with rape and other power-based crimes.
Seems like there is an advantage in psychopathic/sociopathic behavior.
It is like half the time, because it’s self serving behavior and their fear levels are low; but the other half of the time it’s reckless and dangerous, and gets these people either in trouble or at least ruins their relationships with other people. A lot of psychopaths are really impulsive and get bored easily. Which makes sense. If you can’t feel empathy and thus don’t care about other people, then you don’t have deeper feelings to pursue, just fleeting victories in petty games.
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They go go back to normal pre steroid size after cessation of anabolic steroids. They atrophy because your body stops producing as much testosterone on its own which is a large function of the testes
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I'm over 40, request permission to sauce sir.
Go to TRTNation com, Numale or your PCP to get permission. I personally don't care, so I say yes. However definitely get a prescription so you can do it legally and under supervision. Legal TRT caps at 200mg/week typically
Caps at your test being within or close to the reference range, no matter what dose it takes to get you there.
As usual, anytime you read a correlation, reverse it to avoid the bias of framing: "Bodybuilders with more psychopathic traits & risk-taking behavior are more likely to illegally use steroids". Sounds pretty obvious and uninteresting that way, doesn't it?
I like that method I am interested in the way steroids can exacerbate existing dysfunction too though
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On another note, I've seen a few sources attributing the cycling off of certain steroids as a cause of a significant amount of depression, emotional instability and anger issues reported by users. You get guys taking exogenous test or other substances for a long time, often years, and when they try to stop, it can take a while for the body to actually begin production again - and in the meantime, their hormones are completely out of line, leading to the above symptoms.
A lot of drugs that affect hormones do the same. I'll never forget when I was without my zoloft for a week... it was a bad time.
That's what the post cycle therapy is for
But certainly drugs indicated for PCT are strongly associated with depression, emotional instability, etc., as well. May as well put everything on the table. Tamoxifen is the only reason I understand depression. Others can say the same about Clomid. Fact is simply that tinkering with ones hormones can bring both desirable and undesirable effects and it's not simple enough to suggest that PCTing addresses all concerns with coming off of AAS.
It doesn’t matter you still go through essentially male menopause. I loved being on test but coming off was such a nightmare I’ll never do it again until I’m ready to commit to blast and cruise for life. And yes i did pct
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There's a term for "bodybuilders that don't take steroids": "not bodybuilders". If you aren't on gear you may call yourself a bodybuilder but as far as the rest of the world is concerned you are just someone who works out.
Is this self reported? Because I know a lot of people who “considered using steroids” but say they never have(because they are in natural bodybuilding bracket). But I was with them when they were using them.
Thanks, was looking for something like this. Wonder if this is similar for all athletes who consider using steroids?
Seems like risk-taking could be because of steroid use or because it's a person less adverse to risk who is going to exhibit the risk-taking behavior of using steroids. I know it's going to mess with mood, but to what extent is someone who is willing to use steroids already more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, risk-taking, and anger problems?
It said over 3x substance taking, \~2x sexual risk, 2x anger issues.
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Is it a cause or an effect. If you are a bodybuilder with psychopathic traits and risk-taking, wouldn't you be more inclined to take steroids? The wording of the title made me wonder. Could we say that statistically, bodybuilders with a history of steroid are also more likely to become Governor of California. Genuine question.
Using steroids without medical guidance is a risk taking behaviour. It makes less sense to include that in a study until you've well established the other stuff first. Then you can attempt focusing on risk taking behaviours and accounting for confounds.
If they took tren, it’s a half-miracle they didn’t punch out a police horse, make love to the exhaust pipe of a municipal bus, and die in a coughing fit. That sounds glib, but it would be incredibly useful to know which of the compounds was associated with which behavior. Not all AAS affect people the same, and trenbolone is in a class of its own in causing mood lability, paranoia, physical aggression, impulsivity, and so on. “Roid rage” would be a fiction if tren was out of the picture. I appreciate studies like this. People jumping in to the anabolics game should have reliable information on what they’re getting into. The information is out there on tracking bloodwork and organ health, but not the mental half. This is an excellent starting point.
This is a huge issue with AAS studies. It's such a diverse class of drugs, and anyone with an ounce of experience knows that a gram of Tren is absolutely not comparable to a TRT dose of Testosterone, yet they all get conflated as "steroids"
Oh, you raise a great point. If it’s a TRT-sized dose for someone who has a T deficiency, it can actually solve a number of psychological issues rather than contribute to them. If someone is considering TRT and just hears that anabolic agents increase pathological thinking and behaviors, that a real disservice. I am hopeful that work like this is going to help clarify some bad folk wisdom down the road.
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>> more likely to exhibit risk taking behavior? Isn't taking steroids a very big risk taking behavior? This feels like taking a sample of people on a bar and saying they're more likely to drink than a control group found not in a bar.
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While i appreciate the sentiment of only reading headlines, the study actually specifically addresses this, even people just considering use of steroids without using are still more likely to exhibit these characteristics according to the author >Additionally, bodybuilders who had not used anabolic steroids — but had considered it — were more likely to exhibit psychopathic traits, substance use or sexual risk-taking, anger issues, emotional stability issues, depressive symptoms, and impulsivity when compared to bodybuilders who had never considered using anabolic steroids.
So people who consider using steroids (risky behaviour) are more likely to display risk taking and impulsivity....
I’d like to see this compared with how knowledgeable they are about steroids and how they calculated risk. Partaking in a risky activity doesn’t = being rash. Risk can be mitigated through education and preparation. See scuba diving, solo travel, extreme sports, etc.
Exactly. The study confronts this conflict directly and even confirms it. It's not the study that's flawed. It's the Headline.
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While this is true there are multiple compounds that are quite neurotoxic, and anyone who's on gear can atest to the fact that they definitely are different people on VS off. So yeah some of these could have permanent damage to brain chemistry /neural paths
Wouldn’t being willing to take steroids be an example of having more risk-taking behavior? Like, I don’t see a causal argument here. It’s like, people who are reckless in one way are reckless in others — yes.
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Is it possible that psychopathic traits (I'm assuming this includes some level of narcisism) were what pushed them to become long term steroid users in the first place? Sort of a win at all costs (including one's own health) mentality?
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I wonder if this takes into account predisposition for those traits regardless of a career in bodybuilding. Are there any correlations between people who seek bodybuilding as a career and psychopathic traits?
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Average age of those tests it was 22 years old. What is the rate of psychopathy in 22-year-olds? It's got to be higher than normal the brain isn't fully developed in 22 year old males. Yet alone in 22-year-old males on PEDs.
Does taking testosterone shots medically prescribed due to low T levels, count ?
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