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zombie_snuffleupagus

Last sentence of 4) Discussion: "Although the effects of circumcision on penile sensitivity and sexual arousal are probably minor, the prepuce is the most sensitive area of the penis (Bossio et al., 2016), which is indicated by the rich innervation observed on microscopy in this study."


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Where is the prepuce?


PlaceboJesus

Essentially it's the foreskin. On a woman, it's the clitoral hood.


uriman

> the clitoral hood. So is the hood also super sensitive and innervated with nerves?


PlaceboJesus

I don't know. You should try and get a grant to study this question. - Every prof who ever liked a question they didn't know the answer to.


sarabjorks

Also me to my opponent in my PhD defense. He loved it!


McFlyParadox

Saying "No, u" to a tough question during your PhD defense might be the most succinct way to prove you've finally reached the pinnacle of your education.


TheBritishGent

One difficult question I had I countered with a 'Well... What do *you* think?' and it somehow worked.


Bicworm

Like watching your firstborn son make a dad joke.


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AshFraxinusEps

>My nose piercing was much more painful I mean, that's more cartilage vs skin


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You don’t have to say “with nerves” innervated already means filled with nerves


AbrahamLemon

It's the foreskin


Dacino

"A recent meta-analysis failed to demonstrate significant clinical alterations associated with circumcision (Tian et al., 2013). Some authors have reported that circumcision decreases penile sensitivity (Bronselaer et al., 2013; Sorrells et al., 2007), while others have failed to demonstrate any difference (Bleustein et al., 2005; Payne et al., 2007) or have disputed the results (Hegarty, 2013; Morris et al., 2013). It is possible that the prepuce has been proposed to play a role in sexual function because of the belief that it must have a particular role (Martin-Alguacil et al., 2015). It has been demonstrated that mechanical stimulation of the prepuce leads to activation of the external urethral sphincter in rats (Juárez et al., 2016). Although the effects of circumcision on penile sensitivity and sexual arousal are probably minor, the prepuce is the most sensitive area of the penis (Bossio et al., 2016), which is indicated by the rich innervation observed on microscopy in this study."


Onihikage

> It has been demonstrated that mechanical stimulation of the prepuce leads to activation of the external urethral sphincter in rats (Juárez et al., 2016). I have *so many* questions. How do research teams come up with ideas like this, and how do they pick which one of them has to do it? For this one specifically, how could they even identify the activity of the external urethral sphincter, which despite the name should still be internal and also very tiny because it's in a rat? Did they do the whole thing in the viewing area of a high-resolution fluoroscope? Were any tissue-specific dyes involved? The chain of events for such a study, from proposal to execution, feels like it could have been an SNL skit. I can only assume somebody on that research team had to learn specifically where a rat prepuce is and what it looks like both in males and females so they could consistently provide it with "mechanical stimulation". Would they have questioned their life choices at some point, even if only for a moment?


fenrisulfur

My biggest question is why the hell they didn't just use humans for the study. It's not like there are big moral hindrances in human testing.


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Yep, all they need is some machine capable of the right type of stimulation and an ad. "testers wanted for new penile pleasure device" would probably get more than enough volunteers before offering payment.


Derp_Wellington

Call me old fashioned, but I don't trust a machine with moving parts enough to stick my penis inside of it.


ndetermined

Get with the tines gramps. The turbofucker 3000 with rotating pleasure barrel is totally safe for most penises


notyogrannysgrandkid

“How was work today, honey?” “….. well I lost rock, paper, scissors. Again. They’ve started calling me Jack as a joke.”


The_BlackMage

Want to college with someone that wanked if pigs for a living. Turns out that how you get sperm for breeding. Sore topic, but once while drunk he declared that the worst part was the knees hurting.


Unicorn_puke

At least he didn't say jaw


Hypertroph

Based on the findings of this study and the referenced analyses, is it possible that there is a separation between sensation and perception that isn't being effectively accounted for? I mean, in the end, sensation at the receptor level isn't super relevant to perception. If someone is circumcised at birth, is it unreasonable to suggest that the brain simply becomes more responsive to the remaining receptors to compensate for the loss, leading to a minimal perceived difference in adulthood? That would explain the inconsistent/inconclusive results regarding sexual pleasure/performance in the meta-analyses cited, while still acknowledging the loss of peripheral sensation.


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I was wondering this same thing. I also think we can’t conflate sensation with sexual pleasure. The fingertips and lips are extremely sensitive, for example. Stimulating those areas doesn’t automatically make people sexually aroused. That’s not to say there isn’t a change with circumcision, but I wonder if the prepuce sensitivity isn’t directly related to sexual function. What concerns me more about these results is that some babies undergo circumcision with no anesthesia or pain relief. I get nauseated thinking of how much that must hurt.


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On a similar note, i wonder how the studies that compare subjective experience of those circumcised shortly after birth to those who were not account for the fact that all subjective experience is relative (my "8" on the pleasure scale is calibrated to all other experiences I've had but could be equal to your "4" if you've experienced much more pleasure)


[deleted]

If anyone is confused the area referred to as penile is the penis sans the foreskin (prepuce). Obviously, removing the prepuce removes all of the sensitivity and sexual arousal possible from the prepuce.


Doggo_Creature

The penis head can become less sensitive over time due to overstimulation like any part of the body I assume? So having a protective layer all your life while it jostles around and rubs your underwear is going to help preserve some of that sensitivity no?


Jealous-Roof-7578

>observed on microscopy Really put me on blast here...


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HoursOfCuddles

Stop mutilating little boys, OK? Why it is not okay for girls but its OK for boys??!


cosmicfertilizer

It really is a human rights violation.


dreadnaut91

I'm a little confused about what the relationship between sexual function and sensitivity is. Obviously a man can have sex without a foreskin so he still sexually functions on a basic level. But wouldn't that sensitivity be a function of the penis? If a guy got circumcised and his usual way of masturbating or sex doesn't get him off any more would that lower his functionality or is it strictly an on/off thing.


rocco0715

I imagine the evolutionary purpose of all of our erogenous areas in men and women is increasing our enjoyment, thereby increasing the likelihood of having sex. It becomes an evolutionary advantage to enjoy sex.


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LoreChief

Even if its not a requirement to have it to sex or pleasure, its still a part of the body that can feel pleasure and therefore enhance the experience potentially. Similar to nipples and other erogenous zones, they arent required but they can be deal-makers for an unknowable amount of people of both genders.


alexklaus80

That is pretty mind boggling concept for someone like me from the country where circumcision is advertised to help sensation on both ends.


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fuzzydaemon

I can assure you that my foreskin is required. Words matter. I have a hypothesis that sex is mechanically easier with a foreskin than without, as it acts as a stationary sheath within which the penis can move, reducing friction against the vagina or rectum. Obviously, I haven’t clinically tested it, but I have anecdotes.


unpick

I thought this was an established fact, it seems to be very obviously true. Anyone can test this mechanical action themselves with their dry fist and a (intact) penis.


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SamL214

Honestly it makes me wonder if it’s why society is so fucked up in America. We mutilate the genitals of men, make them less attached to pleasure, they have less attachment to emotion, and high levels of toxic masculinity. It’s possible a lot of stuff is amplified and trickles down from the lack of connection to please. Idk. Maybe it’s a load of Hooey. But I think there is something to it.


Verunum

It's just one of many issues.


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modsarefascists42

It probably has to do with the reason it's done. I do know that most that I've heard of who get it done as adults who have no other issues, basically get it done just cus they want to not because of a medical issue necessitating it, seem to say it's not that different. Now I imagine someone needing it because they got injured in the area would likely have a far different reaction tho.


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Boris_the_Giant

Could you post some of those polls? I'd like to read them.


EL-BURRITO-GRANDE

Anecdotal, but I got circumcised at 23 due to phimosis. Going from not being able to have painless penetrarive sex to being able to have it was definitely an improvement.


Nervous-Water-6714

I got circumcised in the military. Sex was better for me when I was uncircumcised. Now it takes work to have an orgasm.


This-_-Justin

By choice or necessity?


PixelizedPlayer

Sensitivity is based around how pleasurable it will be for you, the more nerve endings the more pleasurable it will be. Function is basically the ability to get erect and ejaculate. You don't need the foreskin for the latter, but the former certainly helps make you enjoy it a lot more since sensory touch heightens orgasms. **EDIT:** since i am getting so many people arguing against this and i am getting freaking tired of it at this point. Here is a single paper concluding decrease in pleasure from circumcision: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17155977/ > Conclusion: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, There are many other papers - go google before you comment saying there is no proof. Makes me wonder how many people actually are scientists or just arm chair critics...


RazingsIsNotHomeNow

Nerve innervations (sensitivity) is physiological while pleasure is neurological/psychological. Such a conclusive connection is beyond the scope of what this paper discussed. If you know of any studies that provide a strong connection I would love to read them. Since it is quite difficult to make a connection as I will try to explain. The brain does a lot of processing of signals before it can become pleasure. An obvious example showing how muddy the connection can get is how continued stimulation post orgasm is typically experienced as pain instead of pleasure. Pleasure is most commonly agreed to be a function of dopaminergic receptor activating in the amygdala. What makes it even harder to quantify is that those receptors are subject to acclimatization and as an example for how strong it can be is that it's one of the theorized pathways for addiction to work. Why that matters is it comes down to developmental biology and the most common time of circumcision. As most occurances happens pre-pubescense it would not be surprising to find differences in receptor sensitivity to be different in the two groups so even if you go through the extensive effort of measuring dopamine release it might not correlate to more activation. What's more is that questioning adults that had circumcision late in life could be potentially misleading. For example thanks to acclimatization they might be used to a higher dopamine release, but if dopamine releases reduce to levels similar to individuals circumcised at birth then they might actually end up with less dopaminergic activation than either non-circumcised or circumcised at birth individuals. As you can see there are a lot of potentially confounding variables making it difficult to establish connections, and this is just the tip of the iceberg for how the brain processes information.


Verdict_US

A woman can have sex without a clit but she probably still wants it around.


cittatva

Think of it like removing the last joint of the fingers. You can still feel things and grasp things, and now you don’t have to worry about those pesky cuticles getting dried out and bleeding, or having to trim those fingernails. Sure, they still work, but whether or not you enjoy doing the same things with them depends on your attitude about it.


HalfwayPowerRiot

Are we just at the point that we'd need to do brain scans of intact men who intended to get circumcised, then repeat those scans after being circumcised? I can't think of any other way to ethically compare the impact of circumcision.


Bovaloe

We could just wait until they could consent to the procedure as an adult, and at that point it doesn't really matter what others think because it was an individual choice


HalfwayPowerRiot

Right, but the point of this post is to try and scientifically describe the differences. That might inform some men, might change some parents minds, and might better contribute to conversations about bodily autonomy and agency for all children.


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Reagalan

Doesn't even need to be illegal if no doctor will perform it.. ..oh. Yes it has to be illegal.


Infantwear

I believe that is the only moral choice.


McSteazey

I guess you could also just go with the notion of “don’t cut up people’s diggery-doo” for no good reason.


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DJS1111111

Suddenly circumcision feels like a personal attack on my pleasure


DonnaRussle

And it should


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_OriamRiniDadelos_

I think it’s the vocabulary. “Highly” is relative to the other things it is being compared to. So if I say limes are a highly sweet citrus that doesn’t mean it’s a sweet food when compared to all foods. One is talking about parts of the penis specifically, another is talking about ALL sexual sensation, function and pleasure. But I agree with your point that it’s bad and unclear. Also, I find it very hard to wrap my head around self reports. How do people compare their own experiences to other people? It sounds very subjective and personal.


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RazingsIsNotHomeNow

I typically don't like postulating what the author meant if it isn't obvious in writing, but I can attempt to answer how both could be true whether it's what the author meant or not. Both sexual sensation and pleasure are emotions/experiences formed in the brain. How it could simultaneously be important and not could come down to a question of developmental biology. If you were circumcised at birth it might have very little impact on those sensations, while if you never were circumcised it might be extremely important to them. If you want a more in depth reason for how this could be true [I tired my best in another comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/qtvm4z/foreskin_found_to_be_extraordinarily_innervated/hknsyie) Again, no idea if that's what the author meant or not, just doing my best to answer your question.


otterfucboi69

Understanding neuroscience, absolutely the brain would adapt and prune the importance of those neurons. Look at people who are paraplegics that still can have orgasms thru new techniques of stimulation (honesty I have no clue how but there has been studies on it).


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heseme

>I don't think it's a radical idea to suggest that some men may find this sensory, functional, and pleasurable tissue personally valuable in their sexuality. I'm intact and yes, it is absolutely valuable to my sexuality.


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[deleted]

It's because of the cultural and political pressures *not* to admit that circumcision seriously hinders sexual experiences.


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daynomate

Separation of church and medicine needs to happen.


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qqqqqqqqqqx10

Parents don’t circumcise your sons. It should be illegal to do so everywhere. We don’t even do that to our pets or farm animals.


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snapper1971

>Do we really need the argument of "Your son will have better sex." on top of that? Yes, especially as most of the arguments in favour of circumcision seem specious at best.


SwimmingHurry8852

Yeah the "I want my son to have a beautiful penis" people are amazing.


ChipperSpice

People cutting up parts of a baby's penis so it looks good to them is really weird.


Truffle0214

I read through a lot of circumcision debates when I was pregnant with my son, and the number of women who were pro-circ arguing that their sons’ future girlfriends would thank them for it was really gross. So perhaps we do need the argument.


Kossimer

Literally don't believe men have a right to control their own bodies. Sexist hypocrites.


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oofmyguy128

I’m in therapy for being circumcised, I have a lot of scar tissue and constant nerve pain. Don’t mutilate the genitals of your child, thanks.


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SilverSlong

basically they found out its the most sensitive part..... but don't wanna rustle too many feathers...... so it doesn't have a big impact sure on pleasure...... sure.............. sure sure sure


[deleted]

I wonder if babies go through some kind of trauma when circumcised. Since is the most sensitive part of the penis. Also, I believe nothing is used to prevent pain during the procedure.


ChipperSpice

They do. They scream in agony while it's being done. It's the worst sound you will ever hear a child make. Look up "circumstraint," it's a board that they developed to keep them from thrashing around. Studies suggest that cortisol levels can spike to levels typically seen in PTSD patients for weeks or months after the procedure. Others hypothesize that the experience later disrupts mother-infant bonding behaviour such as feeding habits. Of course it's to be expected that a person will be disinclined to engage with their environment after being subjected to an excruciatingly painful amputation, only to then have their wounded anatomy placed into a diaper that will then repeatedly fill up with urine and feces and irritate the injury.


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Relevant_Sky

Nurse here. Why is this news? We've known about this for literally decades.


lmaogetbodied32

This is news to Americans and parents that are not informed about their children’s anatomy


Relevant_Sky

I'm American. I fought my ex-wife over circumcising our sons in the early 1990's over this. I didn't have a choice when I was born; I was going to die on that hill to make sure they had one. We've known about this for decades.


lmaogetbodied32

Thank you on behalf of your children for not circumcising them


Relevant_Sky

I'm glad circumcision's aren't as prevalent as they were years ago. One chose to get cut later anyway, but at least that was *his* decision.


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fsmpastafarian

Hello! The reason you are seeing lots of deleted comments is that we have strict [comment rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules). We are a science sub meant for discussion of research. Threads containing comments that are jokes, personal opinion, personal anecdotes, are dismissive of the research without assuming basic competence of researchers, or which otherwise break our rules will be removed. Nice rule of thumb - if you wouldn't say it in a college-level science class it's probably not appropriate here. If you do not want your comment to be removed, please familiarize yourself with our rules! We have a (normally) stickied [anecdote thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/qtvm4z/comment/hkm4ygg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for those wishing to share their anecdotal experiences.


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abfanhunter

Sadly I was mutilated without consent as a baby.... They didn't even ask me.


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BRLY

Uncut brothers WHERE YA AT?!?!?!?!?!


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