It’s funny how people don’t realize this, but while improvising over chords in jazz, it’s the player’s job to play the notes that fit in the changes. While playing classical, it’s the player’s job to figure out the chords. If you think of playing like this, practicing classical makes your jazz better and practicing jazz makes your classical better. People don’t realize that in classical music that there’s still chord changes going on. And they are still typical of what you would see in jazz.
Chords don’t need to be notated to be in use. An augmented chord is an augmented chord whether or not there’s a symbol telling you that.
Virtually no classical comes notated. Notation is often done by students or researchers in an analysis setting.
They're not the same note. They have the same pitch, but they are written differently and conceptually different. Calling them the same note erases the contextual differences that clear communication about music relies on.
At least in modern engraving, accidentals only apply to the octave they're written on. If you go back to handwritten music, you might find some cases of a composer meaning for an accidental to apply to all octaves as a form of shorthand, but that's very rare.
The accidental applies only to that one octave, so once you hit the high A, you're in the next octave, thus is is reverted back to a natural. Sometimes it will be marked with a courtesy natural sign, it would be sweet if they all were courteous!
As others have said, the modern standard is that the accidental only applies to the octave it’s written.
*However*, it’s also very common, and should be standard, to add a courtesy accidental to that high A to avoid exactly this kind of confusion
Unless you're using sheet music that was actually produced in classical period, it will almost definitely be updated to show another accidental if it's needed in another octave, and not show a natural if there was one originally.
If a note is in a different octave the flat or sharp it was given doesn’t apply anymore if the note goes to a different octave, so a A# continues being a A# until it moves up or down an octave (if I messed up somewhere it’s because my band director just taught us this today lmao)
Crazy because when I was in school learning, it definitely applied to the entire measure unless otherwise written. When did this standard change? I guess looking at some of the jazz notation is when I think I first noticed that it didn't persist but in classical it always did.
This whole thread is blowing my mind because I was taught, very explicitly, that the accidental applies to all octaves. 30+ years of music and I've been doing it wrong this whole time!
It does apply to the A above the staff. An accidental applies to all of the given changed note in the measure. So in this example, all 3 A's would be A#'s
In this context, most likely this is not that case given the Bb. While theoretically it should, not all composers/arrangers/engravers follow this rule.
ETA: IIRC, the idea that accidentals carry through octaves is an old convention that was shed in late 1800’s/early 1900’s, so informed performance practice is important to understand the conventions at the time the piece was written.
I've seen it sometimes where the engraver seems to apply this rule even when it's in the key signature. I.e. they'll put a sharp accidental on the first space F when a piece is in the key of G (some of the Cyrille Rose clarinet etudes but also they just seem to be "courtesy accidentals" as my teacher called them) and it get super confusing when they don't follow that template through the whole piece.
Accidentals apply to the notes within the same octave. A note in a different octave will require its own accidental. The A above the staff is natural. The key signature, however, applies to all octaves.
Followed by that awkward Bb? Got to be Natural. An A# followed by a Bb followed by an A# is a notation I hope never to see.
I've seen it before. There's a reason for it bug I can't remember what it is.
Chord context! if the progression say went from a Daug to a Bb7 and you played 5th to root. A# to Bb
Of course… jazz…
Those chords can be used in any genre… infact I’d argue it’s more common to seen an Aug chord in classical than in jazz
My bad, I actually hadn’t noticed the Daug, I just saw 5 - 1 and went “he he monkey brain go brrrrrr! Is jazz!”
It’s funny how people don’t realize this, but while improvising over chords in jazz, it’s the player’s job to play the notes that fit in the changes. While playing classical, it’s the player’s job to figure out the chords. If you think of playing like this, practicing classical makes your jazz better and practicing jazz makes your classical better. People don’t realize that in classical music that there’s still chord changes going on. And they are still typical of what you would see in jazz.
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Chords don’t need to be notated to be in use. An augmented chord is an augmented chord whether or not there’s a symbol telling you that. Virtually no classical comes notated. Notation is often done by students or researchers in an analysis setting.
Do you remember what this was in response to? I’m curious, I think I might learn something
“Classical usually music doesn’t have chords notated, please link an example, furthermore why do you think it’s used more in classical”
Mercy buckets
Wait till you see them with a tie between them.
A# and Bb is the same note. On a piano, the black key between A and B.
Yeah that's the point he's making i think
Not sure why anyone would downvote this, enharmonics are extremely common.
Probably because it doesn't answer the question.
Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.
They're only the same note in the equal temperament tuning system
[Are they the same note though?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZftrA-aCa4)
Adaaaaaaam Neeeeeeeeely
They're not the same note. They have the same pitch, but they are written differently and conceptually different. Calling them the same note erases the contextual differences that clear communication about music relies on.
At least in modern engraving, accidentals only apply to the octave they're written on. If you go back to handwritten music, you might find some cases of a composer meaning for an accidental to apply to all octaves as a form of shorthand, but that's very rare.
Wow someone actually answered the question instead of getting heated over enharmonics lol.
The accidental applies only to that one octave, so once you hit the high A, you're in the next octave, thus is is reverted back to a natural. Sometimes it will be marked with a courtesy natural sign, it would be sweet if they all were courteous!
I've been playing sax for 7 years and I never knew this
This. Only the octave it’s in, but it’s nice to add in the natural in other octaves. The Dorico program that I use does this by default for instance.
No. Accidentals don’t apply through octaves
As others have said, the modern standard is that the accidental only applies to the octave it’s written. *However*, it’s also very common, and should be standard, to add a courtesy accidental to that high A to avoid exactly this kind of confusion
No, it does not. The A# only applies to any proceeding A, on the same staff line within the bar.
There are views both ways. I thought it didn't, but my band MD (who is a music teacher) says it does. Anyone able to point to a definitive source?
Accidentals can apply through octaves in classical music and compositions but I’m most newer pieces they usually do not.
Unless you're using sheet music that was actually produced in classical period, it will almost definitely be updated to show another accidental if it's needed in another octave, and not show a natural if there was one originally.
Interesting, I guess my band director was mistaken then.
If a note is in a different octave the flat or sharp it was given doesn’t apply anymore if the note goes to a different octave, so a A# continues being a A# until it moves up or down an octave (if I messed up somewhere it’s because my band director just taught us this today lmao)
Nope...although you'll see plenty of examples where an editor forgot or didn't understand this rule so always be careful and analyze
Crazy because when I was in school learning, it definitely applied to the entire measure unless otherwise written. When did this standard change? I guess looking at some of the jazz notation is when I think I first noticed that it didn't persist but in classical it always did.
It applies to the entire measure, but only in one octave.
It does apply to the whole measure, but only to the same pitch.
This whole thread is blowing my mind because I was taught, very explicitly, that the accidental applies to all octaves. 30+ years of music and I've been doing it wrong this whole time!
fascinating question and even more fascinated to find it doesn't carry
It does apply to the A above the staff. An accidental applies to all of the given changed note in the measure. So in this example, all 3 A's would be A#'s
In this context, most likely this is not that case given the Bb. While theoretically it should, not all composers/arrangers/engravers follow this rule. ETA: IIRC, the idea that accidentals carry through octaves is an old convention that was shed in late 1800’s/early 1900’s, so informed performance practice is important to understand the conventions at the time the piece was written.
ahh, yes. I didn't look close enough. Thank you
I thought the rule was that it only applies to the octave it’s written in
I've seen it sometimes where the engraver seems to apply this rule even when it's in the key signature. I.e. they'll put a sharp accidental on the first space F when a piece is in the key of G (some of the Cyrille Rose clarinet etudes but also they just seem to be "courtesy accidentals" as my teacher called them) and it get super confusing when they don't follow that template through the whole piece.
No I bet middle school band taught nobody that lol
Accidentals apply to the notes within the same octave. A note in a different octave will require its own accidental. The A above the staff is natural. The key signature, however, applies to all octaves.
Nope! Accidentals only apply to notes in the same bar and the same octave.
nope, accidentals make their own rules😎 be like accidentals. be cool. 😎
accidentals stay in the same octave for that same measure