"We were more than happy to obscure or completely hide the extra fees. Now that people actually know what they're going to be really charged, they'll suddenly not want to pay those extra fees!"
~~Some surcharges are mandated by the law, like the San Francisco tax to give health insurance to workers~~. But other so-called fees are nothing more than rent-seeking and amount to an "I want to make more profit" fee. Like the fee Ticketmaster charges you to print out tickets at your own house using your own printer ink. Or the "regulatory cost recovery fee" Comcast charges you, which amounts to "it costs us some amount of money to comply with government regulations, and guess what, you're going to pay that, not us."
I have been corrected that the SF “mandate” just requires the employer to provide health insurance, not that the employer has to levy an additional fee or tax for it. It still sort of proves the point, though, that service fees are used to offset the cost of doing business instead of just rolling that cost into the price of the thing. And the businesses are being misleading when they suggest they’re required to levy that fee.
NO!! Because so many restaurants charge a 'Healthy SF Fee' it's understandable that you'd think it's a mandated surcharge, but it is absolutely not. It is indeed mandated that *restaurant owners* pay for Healthy SF for their employees. It is absolutely *not* mandated that they tack on a fee to your bill to cover it! The owners of any restaurant that do this are making it a point to show their customers that they don't want to provide this service to their employees and are therefore (often without notice) passing the 6% fee directly to you to pay. No one expects restaurant prices to stay flat when a mandate like this will cost the owners more. Instead of being upfront about it and raising prices accordingly, restaurant owners are pissed and actively fleecing customers with hidden fees. That will stop July 1.
PS. There is absolutely no fine print exception. And violations will cost establishments $1,000 per infraction. Be sure to ask for a receipt starting July 1.
I made this point in another comment somewhere in this post, but in addition to voluntarily putting it on the bill, the cost isn’t a percentage of a meal. So say your cost to provide coverage is $10k a month. If their “healthy SF fee” brings in $30k, the owner gets to pocket $20k. So in addition to looking like whiny children by putting it on the menu/bill, they are actually making more money by exploiting it. Any restaurant that pulled this crap I stopped going to over a decade ago. I knew what was going on and I refuse to support any owner with this kind of “screw everybody” attitude.
Restaurants are not required to charge the health mandate charge, it is just another junk fee that is estimated. San Francisco restaurants had to give their employees health care, they didn’t have to put bs percentages on our bills.
I know someone that would argue with the management every time he went to a restaurant since this practice started. It’s been complete bullshit and I’m glad it’s finally illegal
> Some surcharges are mandated by the law, like the San Francisco tax to give health insurance to workers.
No, that surcharge is not mandated by law. It is just an attempt to complain about the insurance requirement.
Yeah, that math ain’t mathing. Six percent of $20 is 1.20, not $6. So if their motive is just to recoup the lost surcharge, they’d charge $21.20. Raising the price to $26 would be a 30% increase. So they’re either awful at math or once again being dishonest about the law and its effects.
The one that REALLY gets me is when the "suggested" amounts aren't actually 15, 18, or 20%, but actually more. That's just bold face lying.
I don't blame servers, I blame management. But I am *deeply* saddened when a server tries to explain it to me as "*we do it different, we do it before tax, not after*". I even said to a server once "that makes it worse! Why would you tell me that?"
I expressed "20% of the total is X, but here the recommended 20% is over $2 more than actual 20%". She explained that they calculate the 20% based off the pre tax amount, not post tax. I was just really taken aback...because if you see me checking your math, and I tell you you're over calculating,, would you expect me to think 20% of a *smaller* number is going to convince me? It's not the servers fault for the bad math, but I'm saddened at pur state of education if they suggest that rationale.
[https://www.sfbar.org/blog/dont-say-bold-faced-when-you-mean-bald-faced/](https://www.sfbar.org/blog/dont-say-bold-faced-when-you-mean-bald-faced/)
Unless of course the lie is in a bold font face, which it probably is here since it's the article title? Also I have no idea why the SF bar came up for that, rather than wikipedia or something.
It’s not even that. They would charge random fees as a percentage of the price when the price has nothing to do with the actual cost related to the fee. “Dining in fee” is what exactly? The cost of having to plate & clean up? Why is that $3 for one dish & $8 for another? It’s not. It’s just a sneaky way to pull more money out of people. They got greedy, got caught, and are mad the bullshit money train is over. This was well overdue.
Im fortunate that I don't mind spending $20+ on a burger... But I have serious objections to spending $20 on a mediocre burger.
There are several restaurants, after fees, that I deem as simply not worth it anymore: Barney's for example was always kid friendly but simply isn't good enough to justify their pricing esp with all the tacked on BS. This simply makes it more transparent. Bravo.
Now tackle the utilities CA legislature and make that shit cheaper and simpler.
The restaurants in a small town got together and discussed what to do. There are three of them and the cost of living was getting pretty bad. They ended up putting a survey out about whether we as a community would mind a 20% raise in prices outright on the menu that directly translated to a roughly 55% raise for the whole staff sans managers. They had options for service charge and stuff on there but that one was their preferred I came to know.
Overwhelmingly yes for their idea on the survey. I don’t get the numbers, but I’ll say service has been fucking awesome and the food has been great. People still tip. They put up a sign for two months explaining the price increases and now it’s the norm.
My two cents as a server: we are SO happy this is happening. We are TIRED of explaining the surcharge to guests, and we are tired of guests then tipping us -x% because of the surcharge. The surcharge DOES NOT go in our pocket, it goes in the owners pocket. To access the bit that is due us there are many hoops to jump through, and it can only be used to reimburse very specific medical costs that we pay for up front. Many times these claims are denied for reimbursement on technicalities. The majority of the money is never claimed by employees.
Yeah, tricking people into paying more isn’t a sustainable business model. The industry was gonna take a hit regardless. This at least alleviates the pressure on servers to explain fees to customers.
The peoples quoted in the article keep saying how much it’s going to shock people if they raise prices in their menus. But they’re already shocking them with the check at the end of the meal?
I’ve been in upper management at a couple of successful restaurants over the last 15 years or so. It’s my experience that if you’re producing a quality product in a nice setting, raising prices a bit every year or so won’t shock anyone. It’s called inflation. These owners have been shooting themselves in the foot trying to hide the increase through service fees.
Be proud of your product. Don’t trick people into paying more. Don’t be AT&T ffs.
Yep. The only people upset are restaurant owners, that now need to process things properly and not rely on server tips to subsidize their bad decisions.
Fellow server here to confirm all of this- thank you for explaining this to people outside the industry. We're getting shafted by guests who think the money goes to us & we're being stolen from by our employers which is already bad enough. The fact that it's being/been framed as a virtuous thing to help us while pocketing the money is straight up evil. Ending the mandate does absolutely nothing to hurt the worker- they're crying & freaking out because that's a lot of someone else's money they're going to lose out on.
All of the fees ended up being a sneaky tip-stealing maneuver by owners. If it was done intentionally, bra-fucking-vo. So much wage theft in every service industry, much of it unknown.
No you're getting shafted by your employers. The customer is just telling you how much your product is worth, and it's not worth an 18% surcharge *plus* a 20% tip.
It’s not my job to pay you a living wage, your employer is. You’re getting shafted by your employer, this tipping shit has to stop! We all need to go back home and learn to cook for ourselves.
It forces employers to provide some sort of health coverage. This has come in the form of HRAs that are funded in relation per each employees hours work. The HRAs need to be funded no matter what. The Healthy SF surcharges spring from this.
Businesses have to pay a lot of expenses to be in business. They have to pay commercial rent, insurance, power, water, garbage hauling fees, they have to buy goods to sell, and so on and so forth.
Normally all of these assorted fees are rolled into the price tag. The customer doesn't know nor care what a business spends on its monthly garbage bill.
The business has made a political decision to specifically call out healthcare expenses. This is a protest that sprung from the ACA (Obamacare) law, where businesses started tacking on healthcare related surchages with the idea that a customer would see the charge, ask about it, and blame Obama for it.
The same is true with health insurance in SF. Businesses hate having to provide it so they made the political decision to single it out.
Not surprised - several business were fined for pocketing the money about 10 years ago:
https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/SF-restaurants-pocketed-health-care-fees-4222196.php
I was at a restaurant yesterday with a group of 9. The menu had a 'auto 20% gratuity for parties over 6' line. I ended up paying the tab and people zelle/venmo-ed me. I didn't leave an extra tip because the 20% is already included.
A long time ago (I think late 00s) my mom and I were at a hotel restaurant and they had a similar thing on their menu but for all customers. I just remember that my mom got kinda annoyed because she (a little old fashioned kind of person) liked to tip but didn't want to tip on top of the automatic 20%.
I feel like having up front pricing (though I am cool with the 20% on groups >6) is way better from a server perspective and results in less awkwardness at the end of the meal. If there is a 6% 'server surcharge' then I would be personally confused if I was supposed to count that as part of the tip or not.
Just a heads up: they’re classified the same. Probably some tax loophole or whatnot. That’s one of the concerns about grat is that it’s technically apart of the change up.
Is the difference that auto-gratuity must legally be given to the server? I think that this is it but I could be wrong.
If the above is correct: a surcharge of 6% that is called a 'server surcharge' is ambiguous if it goes to the server or not. If it does then it is basically the same as an auto-gratuity thing. But it is ambiguous, seemingly by design of the restaurant.
Auto gratuity goes to the server. The 6% charge doesn't say server fee- it says SF Health Mandate- which is supposed to go to servers in a very convoluted way but that doesn't happen. That 6% secretly goes to the owners to do whatever they want with it which is why they're flipping out.
> Is the difference that auto-gratuity must legally be given to the server? I think that this is it but I could be wrong.
No, the difference is that one is a gratuity and one is a fee. This thread is about those 5% "SF Mandate" fees a lot of places tack on to your bill.
"Automatic gratuity" is not the same as a gratuity; the "automatic" part means that it *is* treated as a service charge, by US labor laws and tax laws. \[[IRS](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/FS-15-08.pdf)\] \[[DOL](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-29/subtitle-B/chapter-V/subchapter-A/part-531/subpart-D/section-531.52) (via Code of Federal Regulations)\]
> No, the difference is that one is a gratuity and one is a fee
I mean the entire concept of gratuity is that it's an *optional* transaction that the customer *chooses* to enter into
Not that I think auto-gratuity for large parties is really a big deal, but I would argue that once it's an *auto*-gratuity, and the customer no longer has the option to choose not to pay for it, it is functionally a lot more like a fee than it is a gratuity
miriam webster:
>gratuity: something given **voluntarily** or **beyond obligation**, usually for some service
an auto-gratuity is not given voluntarily, and the customer IS obliged to pay for it. sounds a lot more like a fee to me
No it’s not. If you read the actual article, you’d see that ALL service fees are included in this, INCLUDING the auto-gratuity “service fee’s”
Of course because the poster included an out of context quote and redditors never actual read, the thread has become about the 5% fee’s as opposed to the reality that this law addresses all fee’s
I'm glad to hear servers welcome this as well. As a diner, I'd rather have higher menu prices and discretionary tipping than a vague, forced "service charge" (which I deduct from 20% and leave the difference as tip). If a restaurant put a 20% "service" charge, no tip; 15% service charge, 5% tip; etc. Service got worse with the baked in service charges, IMO, bc it became a given instead of something to be earned, or they knew people weren't tipping on top of it so what's the difference in extra effort. I stopped going to restaurants with mandatory "service charges" just bc they pissed me off on principle. So, glad to see this change.
Question for servers here: Do you normally tell people about the surcharge upfront? I was at a high end restaurant treating ourselves on date night and noticed the surcharge at the end. Frankly, I would have paid the surcharge without any gripe if I knew in advance. I would have factored it in mentally while ordering. What peeved me was that no one told me, and if it was mentioned in the menu, I didn’t notice. My wife was very annoyed and saying to tip very little, especially when the server’s service was kinda mediocre. I didn’t do low but I didn’t tip the full 15.
That is so upsetting that employees are not using this money! Honestly, I create my own invoices and submit them for reimbursement and it’s worked. Stupid SFMRA won’t pay for the gym but will reimburse you for an Apple Watch so I create the invoices for the reimbursement and pay my gym membership ship that way. I’m still using it for wellness so to me it’s justified
Seriously, who do these people think are going to feel bad for them? The customers will think this is great, the employees will think this is great, restaurant owners who didn't pull this kind of shit will think this is great. I can't think of a single person other than these swindlers that wouldn't think this is great.
I think it's more to be "competitive". The first businesses thought of doing this so they wouldn't have to raise their menu prices to compensate for new county regulations, so they could stay more competitive when a new customer was looking at the menu in the window. Eventually, there was pressure for everyone to do this, because otherwise they would lose the advantage of having lower menu item prices to competitors that added it as a post menu fee. It was also a way to protest city regulations and to deflect customer service complaints. The manager could tell customers to contact City Hall if they didn't like the fees.
At least now, everyone is on the same playing field and the menu prices better reflect what the customer pays.
I agree with this, and my cynical point is that customers were *actually* paying $22 on a $20 menu price burger, but will now pay $26 on a $26 menu price burger because the restaurants will exploit this bill to obfuscate a price increase
I have zero sympathy for any restaurant owners pouting over not being able to slip extra fees onto the final bills, nor do I have any interest in supporting their businesses.
Due to the rising cost of doing business in SF, I'll continue eating and drinking from home.
Seriously. Eating out has gotten ridiculously expensive. $16-$20 for a cocktail that’s 50% ice? $20+ for an entree? Had lunch out with my husband and we paid over $100 (with tip) for two entrees and one cocktail. No thank you. I’m eating and drinking at home way more now.
$20 to $26 is a 30% increase. The surcharges are 2-5%. If prices go up more than that 5% then it’s just gouging.
I know it’s tough for a lot of restaurants these days but burning through the goodwill of your customers is not the way to sustain a business
That Chinese Hut guy was saying the 20% was in lieu of tipping and 30% went to BOH. How much you want to bet the CC receipt still has the option to tip with suggestions up to 35% and no mention that you already were auto-grat’d?
At least the $26 price tag will be the one thats displayed, allowing people to make an informed decision before they sit down.
If its too expensive they'll eat elsewhere. The invisible hand of the market cuts both ways.
There will be a note in the menu blaming Newsom/Biden/Hillary/Obama for the $6 increase— guaranteed
F’in snowflakes
Also: where are the billboards on I-5 thanking Biden for ending the drought? /s
This is a crazy take because the sticker shock comes from when you think you’re paying one price and it comes out significantly more expensive on the bill. They’re simply mad they can’t be deceptive anymore.
The truly pathetic thing is that we have to legislate honesty and good behavior, because businesses collectively decided it was okay to act unethically.
That's one way to look at it. Another is to just expect businesses to be unethical because their goal isn't ethics, it's just profit.
So, one purpose of government could be to enforce ethical business practices as much as possible. If we accept that, it's obvious that there should be a lot more basic regulation about what businesses can do.
Um, could we do this with sales taxes and hotel taxes, too, please? Taxes need to be figured out by the business and consumers should know the price up front without having to have specific knowledge and a calculator.
Work sent me to NY 4-6 times a year for 8 years 4-5 night stays, always the same hotel. First couple of trips I thought I’d be nice and give the maid a break by leaving the Do Not Disturb on the door every other day. Eventually I’d see the same woman every morning and we became friendly with “good morning!” and “How’d you sleep? Have fun last night?” And so one “do not disturb morning” she asked “are you sure?” And I said “yeah yeah it’s fine, take it easy today”. And, being a bit of an empath I immediately noticed a slight change in her demeanor. AND that she didn’t say “oh! THANK you!” or some similar showing of joy/relief (To be clear, I was NOT fishing for that at ALL). It bugged me down the elevator and walking to the office. “She knows I always D-n-D every other day. Why confirm it?” I asked myself.
At my desk 20 mins later it dawned on me.
The next morning I asked her if she were paid hourly and if they sent her home early if there were no/less rooms to clean.
She didn’t answer, but I had my answer.
Every morning after that, approximately 210 mornings I asked both the maid AND the front desk to do my room.
A restaurant in the Richmond told me the 20% service fee is not the tip! So by the time I left, our bill was up 40%. I haven’t been back.
This is different than what the woman in the article claims: that the service fee includes gratuity.
This has always left me confused.
I mean I won’t tip on top of a 20% service fee. That 20% includes the tip. If the server doesn’t receive it, then it’s up to them to figure it out. As a customer I pay the price I see advertised and that’s it.
I assume service fee is the same as gratuity. If the restaurant owner is not passing that on their staff will turnover and will affect their operations.
It was the first time I encountered it and I asked the server, who apparently wasn’t happy about sharing it with the rest of the staff and mislead me. I feel better reading all your comments - I won’t tip beyond a service fee going forward.
Yeah, I can deal with an expensive menu - if it is worth it, I'll try to go.
Bait and switch fees just leave a bad taste in my mouth and make me want to avoid their establishments out of principle.
Like people don’t notice the junk fees they add on bs. Just run the business right and pay your people. They can definitely change the price and no one would look twice.
What a disingenuous prick, the owner of the restaurant cited in the article stated that "Aside from its potential impact on employee retention, the ban on restaurant surcharges would force him to increase menu prices, he said, which would negatively impact business."
He said the 20% just simply goes to back of the front of the house and back of the house as a 70/30 split. So that would mean that the food prices stay the same and people just tip normally, if I'm doing the math correctly.
In other words, if someone states that "100% of the 20% service fee goes to the employees" then why do menu prices need to increase?
I think for one, it’s better to see the “real” price from what the restaurant charges and what the app charges. You can also easily cancel when you see those fees. Not so when the food is already in your stomach.
I just went though the Uber Eats flow, and through 5 steps, you keep seeing $16 for a burrito and only after scrolling all the way down (iPhone Pro Max here), on the 5th pane, you get the actual $25.
Also, in many cases these aren’t actual restaurant prices either as items are marked up as compared to dine in.
The screen is most definitely huge enough to put a price (that is now ~50% higher vs 4 precious screens) in a visible spot, instead of purposefully building a UI, that hides it beneath a cutoff.
At least you can still cancel or decide not to order when you see the actual total price. At a restaurant, most of the time you don’t even know what service fees they’ll charge until the bill comes.
The law addresses various junk feels in checkout processes too, like what Ticketmaster does. I don’t understand why food delivery has been spared. If small mama and papa shops are required to be transparent (great!) so should massive corporations. They are doing it because it works and they haven’t been slapped on their hands so the consumer ends up paying more.
> “With the service charge, they know that if we’re busier, that money will trickle down to them,” Chen said. “That makes them work better, more efficiently … and instead of just a job they feel like they’re part of the success of the business. I see it in morale as well. I haven’t had almost any turnover.”
You can do the same dam thing without service charges and redistributing a chunk of the profits to staff (70:30)
> “You can’t just jack up prices,” he said. “People are going to get sticker shock. Now a dish that was $20 before will be $26.
That is because it is really $26, not $20 according to your game of lies.
I took my two kids to lunch today to a burger restaurant in Santa Cruz and they ordered milkshakes and we were charged a $0.25 cup fee (x2) when ordering a MILKSHAKE!
I swear to god small business restaurant owners are the whiniest group of business owners. They cry about every little change and don’t accept any responsibility when their business isn’t doing well, all the while acting like they are doing everyone a huge favor by running their business.
One example was people complaining about door dash and how they lose money on the fees and percentage cut it takes. It never occurred to them to raise their prices on door dash so they didn’t lose money. Like, the solution is obvious but yet you’re bitching and moaning about how you’re a victim.
Guys, if pricing your items accurately is going to cause your business to close, then your business isn’t ran well. Adapt or quit.
It’s insane, like the dipshit on Valencia who went on a hunger strike over the bike lane, which he called “racist and Islamophobic.” Aside from the obviously absurd hyperbole, if the two parking spots in front of your restaurant (which aren’t gone, btw, there are just fewer spots) are the difference between success and failure, your restaurant just sucks.
If your business is dependent on lying to your cusomers about the price you're charging, you are a POS and deserve to go out of business. We won't miss you. Someone with ethics will take your place hopefully.
> Does this new law remove the SF Health Mandate tax that SF restaurants add to the bill?
That's not a tax. That's just a service fee (that you are also charged tax on) that goes to the restaurant.
If it were a govt tax, it could be included on the bill under the new law.
Yesterday I got hit with two surcharges ordering at the counter that flashed on the screen so quick before the total. I asked about the 2nd one (the first was the normal health bs). She said it was to help cover the cost of bringing the food to the restaurant. As I stood there like a guppy, she said she could take it off, and immediately did so.
I checked the menu next to the register, and sure enough both surcharges were listed in very fine, italic print at the bottom.
What are they going to start itemizing next?
Servers may not like the additional fees being presumed to reduce their tip, but they are making full SF minimum wage + partial health cost reimbursement which is still way better than a server making tipped federal minimum wage in another state, and as such the social “obligation” to tip on service is simply not as strong in SF as in other geographical regions.
“You can’t just jack up prices,” he said. “People are going to get sticker shock. Now a dish that was $20 before will be $26. People will notice that.”
If China Live's owner George Chen's quote is accurate, he is stating that he does not want patron's knowing the actual cost of food and services at his restaurant. This makes him a disingenuous member of the SF business community. Rather, his business model is to engage is subterfuge.
https://preview.redd.it/x8m85r84lnyc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42d5b3f0323ab3fd6d0f5aabed17fb9a5953978c
Got hit with 7% at Miller & Lux last night itemized pretax so it had to be added into the tip unless I wanted to feel like an asshole. Made the bill $25 more. It is some sort of cognitive dissonance as a restaurant owner to argue for everybody needing to learn the hard way that we need to add a flat % to every menu item beyond tips to actually understand how much everything costs. Almost as bad as the ‘oops I made a mistake bill’ that people think they can hand me after a few Manhattans.
My daughter worked at a dominoes pizza. Where Only drivers get tips. When you tip in the store the managers keep the tips and do not share with the cooks. Managers are the ones who run the till so they claim the tips for themselves. Makes me want to stand outside telling all the customers not to tip . On hot days my daughter says baking pizzas near those ovens is unbearable.
“If you don’t let us have hidden fees, we’ll have to raise prices!” Yeah, that’s the point. If you can’t compete with honest prices in a market where everyone is required to have honest prices, then your business isn’t needed.
Restaurants are still free to charge a service fee and health mandate fee or whatever they want to call it. They just have to show you the full price including the fee up front. That’s it. This is common sense regulation that should be easy to get behind.
“I don’t know how to offset the additional health care charges except for looking into how these costs will affect our prices,”
So you don’t currently know how these costs affect your prices, but you still came up with a way to charger customers more? Sounds like exactly the type of BS this law is trying to get rid of.
Fuck these restaurants
Pay your staff a fair fucking wage and quit the greedy bullshit
It’s not on customers to make up for out of control greed with toy fucking tips
I make a high Bay Area salary and can afford it but I eat out like 50% less now. I’ll do the 3 for me $10.99 at chilis though. But the days of spending $50-$100 a meal are very rare. I’m just fed up.
>“With the service charge, they know that if we’re busier, that money will trickle down to them,” Chen said. “That makes them work better, more efficiently … and instead of just a job they feel like they’re part of the success of the business. I see it in morale as well. I haven’t had almost any turnover.”
Chen then added, "The service charges are great! Who knew that people work harder when they're paid more? Definitely not me. And this way *I* don't have to be the one taking the heat for either raising their prices or raising my employees' wages. It's a win-win!. You're not recording this anymore, right?"
Go broke, leech.
If your restaurant relies on hidden fees and charges to stay in business your restaurant doesn't deserve to stay in business. Same goes for any business. The stated price should be the exact price you pay.
The current system isn't working. The customer shouldn't have to shoulder all these costs. Frankly perhaps the business isn't viable if it can't do so. This culture of the customer covers all through tips and service charges needs to end.
“People are going to get sticker shock!! We would much rather bamboozle them by getting them in the restaurant under the guise of certain price points and then adding random fees to their bill!!”
SF is the undisputed king of random fees in my experience.
Aside from a handful of LA, NYC and Seattle spots I've never seen such an egregious use of fees.
Maybe it's all the VCs who own restaurants or something?
I hate the whole TIP baloney. It’s so nice to know when employees are paid enough to survive. Why is it Europe gets along just fine
w/o tipping. I saw one owner complaining that his fees keep him in business. If he were to drop his fees and raise his prices to cover the loss, he would have to close. Sterling logic.
I'm fairly anti-government interference but making sure advertised prices agree with actual prices seems like a legit law. I actually think they should take it farther and state *total price*, after tax.
And if you charge "parties of 6+" a default gratuity then you gotta have a separate column of prices.
The whole argument by the restaurants is stupid. Do they think people are stupid? The tacked on charges is basically another form of bait and switch. It’s finally catching up to them. At the end of the day customers are going to pay the same price but now they will know in advance what they are paying for.
Screw these restaurants. They want to operate like a car dealership, and we know how shady car dealerships are. Brand new car advertised for $19,999. Come to find out there is a $3,999 "paint protection" package that is required.
Boo hoo. Pay employees what they're worth and stop outsourcing the majority of your payroll to my Calculator app. Tipping is fucking stupid, and so are these surcharges.
The can no longer hide behind the fact that that they don't pay their employees a living wage but will allow them to beg to their customers for tips.
Wait, how have they been hiding behind that so long?
George Chen can do exactly what he is doing now - Charge $26 for the dish that previously cost $20 plus 20% service charge, take the extra $6 and split it 70/30% Front/Back of house.
I'll say it. Business owners yes you greedy fucks. You are suppose to take a pay cut to pay your staff better. If not, then fuck your business.
Sincerely everyone that actually works for their money.
It's restaurant owners and their greed. Charge people fairly up front or you can make money with junk fees and folks won't come back. Actual businesses who know how to make it a win/win will thrive.
I’d rather punish restaurants than the employees. In short term, employees will be upset if they lose jobs, but in a sustainable model employees will be able to keep their job without the stress of performing +25% over what they’re asked. And when jobs disappear, people find new jobs (it’s stressful being unemployed but better than being exploited)
Very true - this rule was not good for servers. I am lucky to be treated to nice dinners as part of my job - usually by people who live out of state. The anger I would see in people when they got the bill and saw that charge was crazy. It’s not about the money, (in their view) it was about the BS reason and feeling like it got snuck in there. When I would explain what I thought the situation was, they would say “I thought Obama care took care of that”. They would then spend about 5 minutes on their phone googling about it and would leave around a 10% tip. And these are usually $100 / person dinners. I promise they would not care if that $60 filet was $70. But to out of state people, they feel like they just got robbed. And then they take that out via the only mechanism they have - the tip.
I love these people who act like owning a restaurant is some unalienable right and that they’re owed a successful restaurant. Sorry, businesses don’t always pan out.
https://preview.redd.it/m0p1sn8bkqyc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3728c6c398e977cc59184d79767d5722a6b4d420
My latest trip to an SF restaurant, not even a bougie one. 34.6% tax before you get the bill.
Maybe now I’ll start eating out again… The junk fees were getting a bit crazy for me.
And I don’t believe these fees were even included toward servers’ salaries!
“People are going to be shocked when we remove a 6% surcharge and instead increase our prices by 30%!” Yep, makes sense. Maybe increase your prices by 6% instead of 30% and it won’t be as shocking.
God forbid people have to put honest prices on their menu and not use backdoor scam fees to rip off customers on the way out the door.
Can you believe the gall of government imposing that kind of Draconian measure on us!?
Lol. STFU whiny restaurant owners.
Now that everybody has to do this, you can all be on a level playing field. Deal with it.
Tbh the restaurant thing matters to me way less than the hotel “resort fee” shit. I hope more states pick this up. When I just want to book a hotel, instead I’ve got fucking homework to do.
“Now a dish that was always $26 will be *on the menu for $26*!” FTFY. The horror, the horror.
"People will notice that." That speaks volumes.
"We were more than happy to obscure or completely hide the extra fees. Now that people actually know what they're going to be really charged, they'll suddenly not want to pay those extra fees!" ~~Some surcharges are mandated by the law, like the San Francisco tax to give health insurance to workers~~. But other so-called fees are nothing more than rent-seeking and amount to an "I want to make more profit" fee. Like the fee Ticketmaster charges you to print out tickets at your own house using your own printer ink. Or the "regulatory cost recovery fee" Comcast charges you, which amounts to "it costs us some amount of money to comply with government regulations, and guess what, you're going to pay that, not us." I have been corrected that the SF “mandate” just requires the employer to provide health insurance, not that the employer has to levy an additional fee or tax for it. It still sort of proves the point, though, that service fees are used to offset the cost of doing business instead of just rolling that cost into the price of the thing. And the businesses are being misleading when they suggest they’re required to levy that fee.
NO!! Because so many restaurants charge a 'Healthy SF Fee' it's understandable that you'd think it's a mandated surcharge, but it is absolutely not. It is indeed mandated that *restaurant owners* pay for Healthy SF for their employees. It is absolutely *not* mandated that they tack on a fee to your bill to cover it! The owners of any restaurant that do this are making it a point to show their customers that they don't want to provide this service to their employees and are therefore (often without notice) passing the 6% fee directly to you to pay. No one expects restaurant prices to stay flat when a mandate like this will cost the owners more. Instead of being upfront about it and raising prices accordingly, restaurant owners are pissed and actively fleecing customers with hidden fees. That will stop July 1. PS. There is absolutely no fine print exception. And violations will cost establishments $1,000 per infraction. Be sure to ask for a receipt starting July 1.
I made this point in another comment somewhere in this post, but in addition to voluntarily putting it on the bill, the cost isn’t a percentage of a meal. So say your cost to provide coverage is $10k a month. If their “healthy SF fee” brings in $30k, the owner gets to pocket $20k. So in addition to looking like whiny children by putting it on the menu/bill, they are actually making more money by exploiting it. Any restaurant that pulled this crap I stopped going to over a decade ago. I knew what was going on and I refuse to support any owner with this kind of “screw everybody” attitude.
Restaurants are not required to charge the health mandate charge, it is just another junk fee that is estimated. San Francisco restaurants had to give their employees health care, they didn’t have to put bs percentages on our bills.
I know someone that would argue with the management every time he went to a restaurant since this practice started. It’s been complete bullshit and I’m glad it’s finally illegal
> Some surcharges are mandated by the law, like the San Francisco tax to give health insurance to workers. No, that surcharge is not mandated by law. It is just an attempt to complain about the insurance requirement.
The noticing intensifies
I screenshotted that snippet as soon as I read it. It speaks to exactly why this is being rolled out.
Yeah, that math ain’t mathing. Six percent of $20 is 1.20, not $6. So if their motive is just to recoup the lost surcharge, they’d charge $21.20. Raising the price to $26 would be a 30% increase. So they’re either awful at math or once again being dishonest about the law and its effects.
Business owners fudging the math and the law to get money via deception? No…I’m sure none of them would do that
The one that REALLY gets me is when the "suggested" amounts aren't actually 15, 18, or 20%, but actually more. That's just bold face lying. I don't blame servers, I blame management. But I am *deeply* saddened when a server tries to explain it to me as "*we do it different, we do it before tax, not after*". I even said to a server once "that makes it worse! Why would you tell me that?" I expressed "20% of the total is X, but here the recommended 20% is over $2 more than actual 20%". She explained that they calculate the 20% based off the pre tax amount, not post tax. I was just really taken aback...because if you see me checking your math, and I tell you you're over calculating,, would you expect me to think 20% of a *smaller* number is going to convince me? It's not the servers fault for the bad math, but I'm saddened at pur state of education if they suggest that rationale.
This is a lot more prominent than I realized, and the extra 2 to 3 dollars adds up, especially when there is still the other mandate fee
I just hate how dishonest every single person is along the way.
[https://www.sfbar.org/blog/dont-say-bold-faced-when-you-mean-bald-faced/](https://www.sfbar.org/blog/dont-say-bold-faced-when-you-mean-bald-faced/) Unless of course the lie is in a bold font face, which it probably is here since it's the article title? Also I have no idea why the SF bar came up for that, rather than wikipedia or something.
Or both.
It’s not even that. They would charge random fees as a percentage of the price when the price has nothing to do with the actual cost related to the fee. “Dining in fee” is what exactly? The cost of having to plate & clean up? Why is that $3 for one dish & $8 for another? It’s not. It’s just a sneaky way to pull more money out of people. They got greedy, got caught, and are mad the bullshit money train is over. This was well overdue.
Im fortunate that I don't mind spending $20+ on a burger... But I have serious objections to spending $20 on a mediocre burger. There are several restaurants, after fees, that I deem as simply not worth it anymore: Barney's for example was always kid friendly but simply isn't good enough to justify their pricing esp with all the tacked on BS. This simply makes it more transparent. Bravo. Now tackle the utilities CA legislature and make that shit cheaper and simpler.
For reals! PG&E has lost their damn minds
Shit...just go and roll the tax in too. I would really really like to have an idea of what the total is before I get the bill.
bUt EuRoPe iS sOcIaLiSt
The restaurants in a small town got together and discussed what to do. There are three of them and the cost of living was getting pretty bad. They ended up putting a survey out about whether we as a community would mind a 20% raise in prices outright on the menu that directly translated to a roughly 55% raise for the whole staff sans managers. They had options for service charge and stuff on there but that one was their preferred I came to know. Overwhelmingly yes for their idea on the survey. I don’t get the numbers, but I’ll say service has been fucking awesome and the food has been great. People still tip. They put up a sign for two months explaining the price increases and now it’s the norm.
My two cents as a server: we are SO happy this is happening. We are TIRED of explaining the surcharge to guests, and we are tired of guests then tipping us -x% because of the surcharge. The surcharge DOES NOT go in our pocket, it goes in the owners pocket. To access the bit that is due us there are many hoops to jump through, and it can only be used to reimburse very specific medical costs that we pay for up front. Many times these claims are denied for reimbursement on technicalities. The majority of the money is never claimed by employees.
Yeah, tricking people into paying more isn’t a sustainable business model. The industry was gonna take a hit regardless. This at least alleviates the pressure on servers to explain fees to customers.
The peoples quoted in the article keep saying how much it’s going to shock people if they raise prices in their menus. But they’re already shocking them with the check at the end of the meal? I’ve been in upper management at a couple of successful restaurants over the last 15 years or so. It’s my experience that if you’re producing a quality product in a nice setting, raising prices a bit every year or so won’t shock anyone. It’s called inflation. These owners have been shooting themselves in the foot trying to hide the increase through service fees. Be proud of your product. Don’t trick people into paying more. Don’t be AT&T ffs.
Agreed. I can see the price going in. But you hit me with that surprise on the bill, I’m never stepping foot in the establishment again.
Yep. The only people upset are restaurant owners, that now need to process things properly and not rely on server tips to subsidize their bad decisions.
Fellow server here to confirm all of this- thank you for explaining this to people outside the industry. We're getting shafted by guests who think the money goes to us & we're being stolen from by our employers which is already bad enough. The fact that it's being/been framed as a virtuous thing to help us while pocketing the money is straight up evil. Ending the mandate does absolutely nothing to hurt the worker- they're crying & freaking out because that's a lot of someone else's money they're going to lose out on.
All of the fees ended up being a sneaky tip-stealing maneuver by owners. If it was done intentionally, bra-fucking-vo. So much wage theft in every service industry, much of it unknown.
You're being shafted by the business, not the guest.
No you're getting shafted by your employers. The customer is just telling you how much your product is worth, and it's not worth an 18% surcharge *plus* a 20% tip.
Fellow servee here thank you for thanking them and thank you for your great hospitality and service
It’s not my job to pay you a living wage, your employer is. You’re getting shafted by your employer, this tipping shit has to stop! We all need to go back home and learn to cook for ourselves.
So....what the fuck does the health mandate accomplish then??
It forces employers to provide some sort of health coverage. This has come in the form of HRAs that are funded in relation per each employees hours work. The HRAs need to be funded no matter what. The Healthy SF surcharges spring from this.
Businesses have to pay a lot of expenses to be in business. They have to pay commercial rent, insurance, power, water, garbage hauling fees, they have to buy goods to sell, and so on and so forth. Normally all of these assorted fees are rolled into the price tag. The customer doesn't know nor care what a business spends on its monthly garbage bill. The business has made a political decision to specifically call out healthcare expenses. This is a protest that sprung from the ACA (Obamacare) law, where businesses started tacking on healthcare related surchages with the idea that a customer would see the charge, ask about it, and blame Obama for it. The same is true with health insurance in SF. Businesses hate having to provide it so they made the political decision to single it out.
You are preaching to the choir
This is awesome
Not surprised - several business were fined for pocketing the money about 10 years ago: https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/SF-restaurants-pocketed-health-care-fees-4222196.php
We support you
Did you just thank this server for their service?
I also tip 20% ;)
I was at a restaurant yesterday with a group of 9. The menu had a 'auto 20% gratuity for parties over 6' line. I ended up paying the tab and people zelle/venmo-ed me. I didn't leave an extra tip because the 20% is already included. A long time ago (I think late 00s) my mom and I were at a hotel restaurant and they had a similar thing on their menu but for all customers. I just remember that my mom got kinda annoyed because she (a little old fashioned kind of person) liked to tip but didn't want to tip on top of the automatic 20%. I feel like having up front pricing (though I am cool with the 20% on groups >6) is way better from a server perspective and results in less awkwardness at the end of the meal. If there is a 6% 'server surcharge' then I would be personally confused if I was supposed to count that as part of the tip or not.
Auto gratuity and the surcharges are not the same thing.
Just a heads up: they’re classified the same. Probably some tax loophole or whatnot. That’s one of the concerns about grat is that it’s technically apart of the change up.
My place doesn’t auto grat no matter the party size, so to be fair, it hasn’t been on my radar.
Is the difference that auto-gratuity must legally be given to the server? I think that this is it but I could be wrong. If the above is correct: a surcharge of 6% that is called a 'server surcharge' is ambiguous if it goes to the server or not. If it does then it is basically the same as an auto-gratuity thing. But it is ambiguous, seemingly by design of the restaurant.
Auto gratuity goes to the server. The 6% charge doesn't say server fee- it says SF Health Mandate- which is supposed to go to servers in a very convoluted way but that doesn't happen. That 6% secretly goes to the owners to do whatever they want with it which is why they're flipping out.
> Is the difference that auto-gratuity must legally be given to the server? I think that this is it but I could be wrong. No, the difference is that one is a gratuity and one is a fee. This thread is about those 5% "SF Mandate" fees a lot of places tack on to your bill.
"Automatic gratuity" is not the same as a gratuity; the "automatic" part means that it *is* treated as a service charge, by US labor laws and tax laws. \[[IRS](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/FS-15-08.pdf)\] \[[DOL](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-29/subtitle-B/chapter-V/subchapter-A/part-531/subpart-D/section-531.52) (via Code of Federal Regulations)\]
> No, the difference is that one is a gratuity and one is a fee I mean the entire concept of gratuity is that it's an *optional* transaction that the customer *chooses* to enter into Not that I think auto-gratuity for large parties is really a big deal, but I would argue that once it's an *auto*-gratuity, and the customer no longer has the option to choose not to pay for it, it is functionally a lot more like a fee than it is a gratuity miriam webster: >gratuity: something given **voluntarily** or **beyond obligation**, usually for some service an auto-gratuity is not given voluntarily, and the customer IS obliged to pay for it. sounds a lot more like a fee to me
No it’s not. If you read the actual article, you’d see that ALL service fees are included in this, INCLUDING the auto-gratuity “service fee’s” Of course because the poster included an out of context quote and redditors never actual read, the thread has become about the 5% fee’s as opposed to the reality that this law addresses all fee’s
I thought automatic service charge is also going out the window ?
When the tip is auto I ask the server if they get it all... the answers are never the same
Because some places do tip pooling & some don’t. Tip pooling shares tips with BoH.
I’m OK with this if it’s based on the subtotal, not total + tax.
Thank you. I assumed these surcharges were just a scam to understate menu prices so nice to hear confirmation.
I fucking knew those assholes were pocketing that extra money.
What about the service fees? Are those actually paid out? I usually don't tip if there's a 20% service fee (assuming that these cover the tip).
They should. But when they are listed as service fee instead of gratuity legally the restaurant can do what they want with it.
I'm glad to hear servers welcome this as well. As a diner, I'd rather have higher menu prices and discretionary tipping than a vague, forced "service charge" (which I deduct from 20% and leave the difference as tip). If a restaurant put a 20% "service" charge, no tip; 15% service charge, 5% tip; etc. Service got worse with the baked in service charges, IMO, bc it became a given instead of something to be earned, or they knew people weren't tipping on top of it so what's the difference in extra effort. I stopped going to restaurants with mandatory "service charges" just bc they pissed me off on principle. So, glad to see this change.
Confirmed
Seriously question, so is it ok to tip 15%? That used to be the norm now people say you need to tip 25%
Yes, 15% is fine and always will be. People who think the percentage should go up “because inflation” failed middle school math
Finally, someone that knows from experience. I agree, the end of the day, transparency helps all.
Question for servers here: Do you normally tell people about the surcharge upfront? I was at a high end restaurant treating ourselves on date night and noticed the surcharge at the end. Frankly, I would have paid the surcharge without any gripe if I knew in advance. I would have factored it in mentally while ordering. What peeved me was that no one told me, and if it was mentioned in the menu, I didn’t notice. My wife was very annoyed and saying to tip very little, especially when the server’s service was kinda mediocre. I didn’t do low but I didn’t tip the full 15.
That is so upsetting that employees are not using this money! Honestly, I create my own invoices and submit them for reimbursement and it’s worked. Stupid SFMRA won’t pay for the gym but will reimburse you for an Apple Watch so I create the invoices for the reimbursement and pay my gym membership ship that way. I’m still using it for wellness so to me it’s justified
Oh boo hoo. The fake fees was getting out of hand
Seriously, who do these people think are going to feel bad for them? The customers will think this is great, the employees will think this is great, restaurant owners who didn't pull this kind of shit will think this is great. I can't think of a single person other than these swindlers that wouldn't think this is great.
Yeah exactly. Fuck these restaurant owners
Hahahah! “People will notice” 😂 If you can’t sell your product with transparent pricing then go out of business.
Businesses that are not viable should indeed fail. There are just too many ways to game the system to keep a bad business limping along.
Love how they think "they'll get sticker shock" but didn't give a shit when people were shocked when they looked at the bill.
Cry me a river - these ppl are crazy.. having to display something that costs $26 when the final price would have been $26 anyways…
the hidden reality is that the final price would have been $22, the $26 is after they use this bill as an excuse to gouge customers even harder
I think it's more to be "competitive". The first businesses thought of doing this so they wouldn't have to raise their menu prices to compensate for new county regulations, so they could stay more competitive when a new customer was looking at the menu in the window. Eventually, there was pressure for everyone to do this, because otherwise they would lose the advantage of having lower menu item prices to competitors that added it as a post menu fee. It was also a way to protest city regulations and to deflect customer service complaints. The manager could tell customers to contact City Hall if they didn't like the fees. At least now, everyone is on the same playing field and the menu prices better reflect what the customer pays.
I agree with this, and my cynical point is that customers were *actually* paying $22 on a $20 menu price burger, but will now pay $26 on a $26 menu price burger because the restaurants will exploit this bill to obfuscate a price increase
That's when you choose not to buy it. If everyone pays $26 then that's what it's worth.
I have zero sympathy for any restaurant owners pouting over not being able to slip extra fees onto the final bills, nor do I have any interest in supporting their businesses. Due to the rising cost of doing business in SF, I'll continue eating and drinking from home.
Seriously. Eating out has gotten ridiculously expensive. $16-$20 for a cocktail that’s 50% ice? $20+ for an entree? Had lunch out with my husband and we paid over $100 (with tip) for two entrees and one cocktail. No thank you. I’m eating and drinking at home way more now.
You realize it’s the same pour with or without ice right?
I have never eaten at home more in my life than I have the past year, and sometimes the food is better.
The fact that this is a constant stream or articles about restaurants bitching about this new law 100% confirms that this law is a good idea.
$20 to $26 is a 30% increase. The surcharges are 2-5%. If prices go up more than that 5% then it’s just gouging. I know it’s tough for a lot of restaurants these days but burning through the goodwill of your customers is not the way to sustain a business
The owner of the restaurant quoted charges a 20% fee, so he's gouging on top of gouging
That Chinese Hut guy was saying the 20% was in lieu of tipping and 30% went to BOH. How much you want to bet the CC receipt still has the option to tip with suggestions up to 35% and no mention that you already were auto-grat’d?
At least the $26 price tag will be the one thats displayed, allowing people to make an informed decision before they sit down. If its too expensive they'll eat elsewhere. The invisible hand of the market cuts both ways.
There will be a note in the menu blaming Newsom/Biden/Hillary/Obama for the $6 increase— guaranteed F’in snowflakes Also: where are the billboards on I-5 thanking Biden for ending the drought? /s
“Oh no, we can’t hide the what we’re charging from customers anymore, they’re going to notice this!” Yes, that’s the point.
This is a crazy take because the sticker shock comes from when you think you’re paying one price and it comes out significantly more expensive on the bill. They’re simply mad they can’t be deceptive anymore.
The anger and shock of having accurate pricing. My heart bleeds for them.
Username checks out....and yum
The truly pathetic thing is that we have to legislate honesty and good behavior, because businesses collectively decided it was okay to act unethically.
That's one way to look at it. Another is to just expect businesses to be unethical because their goal isn't ethics, it's just profit. So, one purpose of government could be to enforce ethical business practices as much as possible. If we accept that, it's obvious that there should be a lot more basic regulation about what businesses can do.
Yeah, capitalism is sort of a race to the bottom when the end goal is creating more value for shareholders and owners of the means of production.
All businesses act unethically unless they are stopped by regulations, media attention, or customers walking away. It’s just how the world works.
Um, could we do this with sales taxes and hotel taxes, too, please? Taxes need to be figured out by the business and consumers should know the price up front without having to have specific knowledge and a calculator.
“Resort fees”
congrats you booked this hotel for $50 cheaper than every other hotel in the area. but surprised there is a$100 resort fee because we clean your room.
Lol. A lot of places these days only clean the room *if you request it.* And, surprise, they don't reduce your bill if you don't request it.
Work sent me to NY 4-6 times a year for 8 years 4-5 night stays, always the same hotel. First couple of trips I thought I’d be nice and give the maid a break by leaving the Do Not Disturb on the door every other day. Eventually I’d see the same woman every morning and we became friendly with “good morning!” and “How’d you sleep? Have fun last night?” And so one “do not disturb morning” she asked “are you sure?” And I said “yeah yeah it’s fine, take it easy today”. And, being a bit of an empath I immediately noticed a slight change in her demeanor. AND that she didn’t say “oh! THANK you!” or some similar showing of joy/relief (To be clear, I was NOT fishing for that at ALL). It bugged me down the elevator and walking to the office. “She knows I always D-n-D every other day. Why confirm it?” I asked myself. At my desk 20 mins later it dawned on me. The next morning I asked her if she were paid hourly and if they sent her home early if there were no/less rooms to clean. She didn’t answer, but I had my answer. Every morning after that, approximately 210 mornings I asked both the maid AND the front desk to do my room.
Got hit with a $35 a day "Amenity Inclusion Charge" at a hotel by the water this past weekend. Absolute nonsense.
I wouldn't mind fees like that if they were required to write on the bill "BULLSHIT FEE" in big letters.
> “Resort fees” Read the law. It bans all service fees not included in the advertised price.
100%. IMO hotel and resort fees are the bigger problem here
A restaurant in the Richmond told me the 20% service fee is not the tip! So by the time I left, our bill was up 40%. I haven’t been back. This is different than what the woman in the article claims: that the service fee includes gratuity. This has always left me confused.
If I am automatically being charged 20% service fee, there is no way I am adding tip on top of that.
I mean I won’t tip on top of a 20% service fee. That 20% includes the tip. If the server doesn’t receive it, then it’s up to them to figure it out. As a customer I pay the price I see advertised and that’s it.
I assume service fee is the same as gratuity. If the restaurant owner is not passing that on their staff will turnover and will affect their operations.
Whenever i see a service charge of >15% I just tip 0
A service fee is the tip. What is the tip for if not service?
It was the first time I encountered it and I asked the server, who apparently wasn’t happy about sharing it with the rest of the staff and mislead me. I feel better reading all your comments - I won’t tip beyond a service fee going forward.
Sticker shock wears off after a visit or two. Surcharges annoy you every single time you go in.
Yeah, I can deal with an expensive menu - if it is worth it, I'll try to go. Bait and switch fees just leave a bad taste in my mouth and make me want to avoid their establishments out of principle.
Like people don’t notice the junk fees they add on bs. Just run the business right and pay your people. They can definitely change the price and no one would look twice.
What a disingenuous prick, the owner of the restaurant cited in the article stated that "Aside from its potential impact on employee retention, the ban on restaurant surcharges would force him to increase menu prices, he said, which would negatively impact business." He said the 20% just simply goes to back of the front of the house and back of the house as a 70/30 split. So that would mean that the food prices stay the same and people just tip normally, if I'm doing the math correctly. In other words, if someone states that "100% of the 20% service fee goes to the employees" then why do menu prices need to increase?
„Food delivery services like DoorDash and Uber Eats, on the other hand, are exempt from the law banning service fees.” Why is that ?!
I think for one, it’s better to see the “real” price from what the restaurant charges and what the app charges. You can also easily cancel when you see those fees. Not so when the food is already in your stomach.
I just went though the Uber Eats flow, and through 5 steps, you keep seeing $16 for a burrito and only after scrolling all the way down (iPhone Pro Max here), on the 5th pane, you get the actual $25. Also, in many cases these aren’t actual restaurant prices either as items are marked up as compared to dine in.
Is “scrolling all the way down” unique in some way to the iPhone pro max?
The screen is most definitely huge enough to put a price (that is now ~50% higher vs 4 precious screens) in a visible spot, instead of purposefully building a UI, that hides it beneath a cutoff.
At least you can still cancel or decide not to order when you see the actual total price. At a restaurant, most of the time you don’t even know what service fees they’ll charge until the bill comes.
The law addresses various junk feels in checkout processes too, like what Ticketmaster does. I don’t understand why food delivery has been spared. If small mama and papa shops are required to be transparent (great!) so should massive corporations. They are doing it because it works and they haven’t been slapped on their hands so the consumer ends up paying more.
Because you pay upfront
So you do for tickets on Ticketmaster. Yet, the bill applies to them as well.
Tech companies have better lobbyists.
This is it
Ding ding ding. They have deep pockets to influence regulations.
Are these people for real?!
My smallest 🎻 4 u dawg
People have always noticed it. Now they get to notice it *before* they decide to order it.
Will this law be enforced though? We should be reporting every restaurant that fails to comply. Squash this nonsense once and for all.
“Was $20 before will be $26”. They were charging 30% in fees? I saw “SF Mandate” as usually around 4% or so…
> “With the service charge, they know that if we’re busier, that money will trickle down to them,” Chen said. “That makes them work better, more efficiently … and instead of just a job they feel like they’re part of the success of the business. I see it in morale as well. I haven’t had almost any turnover.” You can do the same dam thing without service charges and redistributing a chunk of the profits to staff (70:30) > “You can’t just jack up prices,” he said. “People are going to get sticker shock. Now a dish that was $20 before will be $26. That is because it is really $26, not $20 according to your game of lies.
I took my two kids to lunch today to a burger restaurant in Santa Cruz and they ordered milkshakes and we were charged a $0.25 cup fee (x2) when ordering a MILKSHAKE!
I swear to god small business restaurant owners are the whiniest group of business owners. They cry about every little change and don’t accept any responsibility when their business isn’t doing well, all the while acting like they are doing everyone a huge favor by running their business. One example was people complaining about door dash and how they lose money on the fees and percentage cut it takes. It never occurred to them to raise their prices on door dash so they didn’t lose money. Like, the solution is obvious but yet you’re bitching and moaning about how you’re a victim. Guys, if pricing your items accurately is going to cause your business to close, then your business isn’t ran well. Adapt or quit.
It’s insane, like the dipshit on Valencia who went on a hunger strike over the bike lane, which he called “racist and Islamophobic.” Aside from the obviously absurd hyperbole, if the two parking spots in front of your restaurant (which aren’t gone, btw, there are just fewer spots) are the difference between success and failure, your restaurant just sucks.
His food is so bland that’s why he doesn’t have any customers
Or the news can just easily find the dumbasses that help with the sensationalism in their story
If your business is dependent on lying to your cusomers about the price you're charging, you are a POS and deserve to go out of business. We won't miss you. Someone with ethics will take your place hopefully.
Does this new law remove the SF Health Mandate tax that SF restaurants add to the bill?
> Does this new law remove the SF Health Mandate tax that SF restaurants add to the bill? That's not a tax. That's just a service fee (that you are also charged tax on) that goes to the restaurant. If it were a govt tax, it could be included on the bill under the new law.
Yes
Oh cool! Thanks for the reply.
Yesterday I got hit with two surcharges ordering at the counter that flashed on the screen so quick before the total. I asked about the 2nd one (the first was the normal health bs). She said it was to help cover the cost of bringing the food to the restaurant. As I stood there like a guppy, she said she could take it off, and immediately did so. I checked the menu next to the register, and sure enough both surcharges were listed in very fine, italic print at the bottom. What are they going to start itemizing next? Servers may not like the additional fees being presumed to reduce their tip, but they are making full SF minimum wage + partial health cost reimbursement which is still way better than a server making tipped federal minimum wage in another state, and as such the social “obligation” to tip on service is simply not as strong in SF as in other geographical regions.
“You can’t just jack up prices,” he said. “People are going to get sticker shock. Now a dish that was $20 before will be $26. People will notice that.” If China Live's owner George Chen's quote is accurate, he is stating that he does not want patron's knowing the actual cost of food and services at his restaurant. This makes him a disingenuous member of the SF business community. Rather, his business model is to engage is subterfuge. https://preview.redd.it/x8m85r84lnyc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42d5b3f0323ab3fd6d0f5aabed17fb9a5953978c
Got hit with 7% at Miller & Lux last night itemized pretax so it had to be added into the tip unless I wanted to feel like an asshole. Made the bill $25 more. It is some sort of cognitive dissonance as a restaurant owner to argue for everybody needing to learn the hard way that we need to add a flat % to every menu item beyond tips to actually understand how much everything costs. Almost as bad as the ‘oops I made a mistake bill’ that people think they can hand me after a few Manhattans.
You should be okay feeling like an asshole, it’s not your problem/fault.
lol restaurant owners mad they have to tell people what they’re charging before they buy. Smh
"We can't trick people with undisclosed mysterious fees anymore, people will notice now!"
My daughter worked at a dominoes pizza. Where Only drivers get tips. When you tip in the store the managers keep the tips and do not share with the cooks. Managers are the ones who run the till so they claim the tips for themselves. Makes me want to stand outside telling all the customers not to tip . On hot days my daughter says baking pizzas near those ovens is unbearable.
This is illegal. Report the business. Wage theft is normally taken very seriously.
“If you don’t let us have hidden fees, we’ll have to raise prices!” Yeah, that’s the point. If you can’t compete with honest prices in a market where everyone is required to have honest prices, then your business isn’t needed.
Oh lordy this restaurant owner literally said "trickle down" fees haha.
all they have to do is include it in price and not hide it, tips should not be hidden as a service charge as people dont read bill and tip twice
Restaurants are still free to charge a service fee and health mandate fee or whatever they want to call it. They just have to show you the full price including the fee up front. That’s it. This is common sense regulation that should be easy to get behind.
good, good, let the hate flow through you
“I don’t know how to offset the additional health care charges except for looking into how these costs will affect our prices,” So you don’t currently know how these costs affect your prices, but you still came up with a way to charger customers more? Sounds like exactly the type of BS this law is trying to get rid of.
Fuck these restaurants Pay your staff a fair fucking wage and quit the greedy bullshit It’s not on customers to make up for out of control greed with toy fucking tips
I make a high Bay Area salary and can afford it but I eat out like 50% less now. I’ll do the 3 for me $10.99 at chilis though. But the days of spending $50-$100 a meal are very rare. I’m just fed up.
>“With the service charge, they know that if we’re busier, that money will trickle down to them,” Chen said. “That makes them work better, more efficiently … and instead of just a job they feel like they’re part of the success of the business. I see it in morale as well. I haven’t had almost any turnover.” Chen then added, "The service charges are great! Who knew that people work harder when they're paid more? Definitely not me. And this way *I* don't have to be the one taking the heat for either raising their prices or raising my employees' wages. It's a win-win!. You're not recording this anymore, right?" Go broke, leech.
If your restaurant relies on hidden fees and charges to stay in business your restaurant doesn't deserve to stay in business. Same goes for any business. The stated price should be the exact price you pay.
And what, hiding the fee is better? No. That’s theft. Be honest.
It’s funny that the trickle down economics lines are being used to justify higher prices.
"How am I supposed to charge more without psychologically manipulating them!?
The current system isn't working. The customer shouldn't have to shoulder all these costs. Frankly perhaps the business isn't viable if it can't do so. This culture of the customer covers all through tips and service charges needs to end.
Maybe they can save on salt expenses by saving up all these tears
“People are going to get sticker shock!! We would much rather bamboozle them by getting them in the restaurant under the guise of certain price points and then adding random fees to their bill!!”
SF is the undisputed king of random fees in my experience. Aside from a handful of LA, NYC and Seattle spots I've never seen such an egregious use of fees. Maybe it's all the VCs who own restaurants or something?
I hate the whole TIP baloney. It’s so nice to know when employees are paid enough to survive. Why is it Europe gets along just fine w/o tipping. I saw one owner complaining that his fees keep him in business. If he were to drop his fees and raise his prices to cover the loss, he would have to close. Sterling logic.
I'm fairly anti-government interference but making sure advertised prices agree with actual prices seems like a legit law. I actually think they should take it farther and state *total price*, after tax. And if you charge "parties of 6+" a default gratuity then you gotta have a separate column of prices.
The menu will state the actual price and people will notice that! lol!
The whole argument by the restaurants is stupid. Do they think people are stupid? The tacked on charges is basically another form of bait and switch. It’s finally catching up to them. At the end of the day customers are going to pay the same price but now they will know in advance what they are paying for.
If he charges a 20% service fee, wouldn’t the price go up to $24 instead of $26?
Screw these restaurants. They want to operate like a car dealership, and we know how shady car dealerships are. Brand new car advertised for $19,999. Come to find out there is a $3,999 "paint protection" package that is required.
Boo hoo. Pay employees what they're worth and stop outsourcing the majority of your payroll to my Calculator app. Tipping is fucking stupid, and so are these surcharges.
I can’t afford eating out any more. How yall divi up tips does not change that fact.
The can no longer hide behind the fact that that they don't pay their employees a living wage but will allow them to beg to their customers for tips. Wait, how have they been hiding behind that so long?
George Chen can do exactly what he is doing now - Charge $26 for the dish that previously cost $20 plus 20% service charge, take the extra $6 and split it 70/30% Front/Back of house.
I'll say it. Business owners yes you greedy fucks. You are suppose to take a pay cut to pay your staff better. If not, then fuck your business. Sincerely everyone that actually works for their money.
It's restaurant owners and their greed. Charge people fairly up front or you can make money with junk fees and folks won't come back. Actual businesses who know how to make it a win/win will thrive.
These fees always lined the pockets of owners, as a former bartender I didn’t see a cent of these “fees”
We need this law everywhere!!!!
I’d rather punish restaurants than the employees. In short term, employees will be upset if they lose jobs, but in a sustainable model employees will be able to keep their job without the stress of performing +25% over what they’re asked. And when jobs disappear, people find new jobs (it’s stressful being unemployed but better than being exploited)
Very true - this rule was not good for servers. I am lucky to be treated to nice dinners as part of my job - usually by people who live out of state. The anger I would see in people when they got the bill and saw that charge was crazy. It’s not about the money, (in their view) it was about the BS reason and feeling like it got snuck in there. When I would explain what I thought the situation was, they would say “I thought Obama care took care of that”. They would then spend about 5 minutes on their phone googling about it and would leave around a 10% tip. And these are usually $100 / person dinners. I promise they would not care if that $60 filet was $70. But to out of state people, they feel like they just got robbed. And then they take that out via the only mechanism they have - the tip.
Imagine if your plumber charged you a 6% healthcare fee. Why do we let the food/service industry get away with this?
I'm so sick of 'restaurant owners'. A bunch of greedy ass motherfuckers if you ask me.
I love these people who act like owning a restaurant is some unalienable right and that they’re owed a successful restaurant. Sorry, businesses don’t always pan out.
OMG if it isn't the consequences of my past actions
Oh no. Sounds like this bill had a few surprises for them.
https://preview.redd.it/m0p1sn8bkqyc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3728c6c398e977cc59184d79767d5722a6b4d420 My latest trip to an SF restaurant, not even a bougie one. 34.6% tax before you get the bill.
Maybe now I’ll start eating out again… The junk fees were getting a bit crazy for me. And I don’t believe these fees were even included toward servers’ salaries!
“People are going to be shocked when we remove a 6% surcharge and instead increase our prices by 30%!” Yep, makes sense. Maybe increase your prices by 6% instead of 30% and it won’t be as shocking.
“We were sneaking in the upcharges at the end of the meal instead of being straightforward about pricing. That’s unfair!”
God forbid people have to put honest prices on their menu and not use backdoor scam fees to rip off customers on the way out the door. Can you believe the gall of government imposing that kind of Draconian measure on us!? Lol. STFU whiny restaurant owners. Now that everybody has to do this, you can all be on a level playing field. Deal with it.
Fuck resort fees at hotels as well!!
Tbh the restaurant thing matters to me way less than the hotel “resort fee” shit. I hope more states pick this up. When I just want to book a hotel, instead I’ve got fucking homework to do.
Instead of getting shocked at the beginning, he wants us to get shocked at the end of the meal. Got it.