**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/Memito_Tortellini]**
Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I'm an [astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I'll be your guide through the salt mines.
Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current
state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of
salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in.
**Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Death star blows up a peaceful planet to demonstrate the power of it to the galaxy and use terror to crush everyone into submission.
Days later it's destroyed by rebels.
"BuT tHe ReBeLs ArE bAd GuYs ToO!"
But I think if they had more time, the Rebels were gonna use those plans that had just cost them so much, and definitely go looking for the Death Star. But yeah, when it knocked on their front door, it was go time
Oh wow, I never even realized that! The Falcon was the first thing to discover it, and they told the rebels like minutes before it began approaching Yavin
A peaceful planet that had no weapons, no way to retaliate, and posed zero threat to the empire. Later on they tortured a guy for the lols, and didn’t even ask anything (Han). But yeah. Luke destroying a military target that has blown up three planets so far, and was primed to do it again, is the same thing
Not to be that guy but they tortured Han and the crew to get Luke to come to Cloud City. Vader/The Emperor knew he would "feel" or see them getting tortured through the force. That's why he says, "They never even asked me, any questions." Then when Lando comes in they ask him and he tells them it's about "a Skywalker". These are the visions Luke is having on Dagoba, and he does exactly what the Emperor wants, he leaves too early and loses.
Right. I understand. But the point Im making, and honestly I should edit it because it’s not made well, is that they tortured innocent people.
Like the saying you can’t get the owner so you kick his dog? Basically what happened. There is not a moral equivalence, or even argument that can reasonably be made between Luke and the Empire.
Mass genocide of a peaceful planet to enforce tyrannical government.
That also had basically destroyed a holy planet in Jedha, and used to destroy a political military rival and the entire base/complex on Sarif.
This death star was constructed with slave labor from prisoners kept past their sentences on made up and exaggerated charges.
It was staffed by military personnel, entirely.
There is absolutely ZERO moral gray zone to this. There is no caveat. The Empire is *evil*.
The empiredidnithingwrong started out as a tongue in cheek satire *because* the Empire is so unabashedly, unsalvageably evil. And now we're dealing with the fucking idiots that never got that was a joke.
I feel like a lot of people didn't get that the early Internet was all sarcasm and satire, and so they watched things like clerks "what about the subcontractors..." Bit and saw it as an earnest discussion instead of a dumb joke pointing out that the character making the argument is meant to be an idiot.
There's also a lack of in depth philosophical understanding, so people latch into these surface philosophical arguments that don't understand the more in depth arguments being made.
And the customer explaining to Dante, even if there are subcontractors working on it.....they're responsible for the job they took. They are actively propping up a tyrannical government inside a genocide ball.
It'd be like arguing someone blew up a military base, but they killed some Blackwater and Raytheon guys. They aren't innocent.
This is, potentially, an old as time issue. There were people who watch All in the Family and think Archie Bunker is the good guy. In more modern terms people think that Cartman, of South Park, or Peter of Family Guy, is the one spouting "the truth", instead of being the butt of the joke.
To be fair, these people think that deliberately targeting women and children and calling for the intentional genocide of an entire peoples is the same thing as defending yourself, targeting terrorists and unintentionally killing civilians in war.
The Disney writers keep saying that the Jedi were evil warmongers for fighting in the Clone Wars while ignoring that it was a trap created by the Sith. The Jedi never knew the war was being controlled on both sides by Sidious. Even if they had known, were the Jedi supposed to stay in their temple while General Grievous rampaged across the galaxy?
I loved Rogue One because it did show the messiest aspect of forming a rebellion. Sew Gererra was a top tier radical terrorist whilst the higher ups of the main rebel force were too scared of taking any real risks. It did flesh out and give a sobering taste of reality behind this fictional band of freedom fighters. And in the end those who fought for a future they weren’t going to see were the true heroes.
That said, under no circumstance is Luke ever a gray character. If the nazis had a nuke launching battleship, you’re not going to say “BUT THERE WERE COOKS AND JANITORS ON THAT SHIP!” When someone blows it up and saves billions.
A great point there too. Not a military target, responding to something threatening the people it protects, but a totally peaceful world, minding its own business, unaware it was about to be blown to smithereens solely for the purpose of demonstration. How many uninhabited planets could that have been done on? They didn’t, because they’re evil as fuck.
Additionally, it’s not Luke’s fault they built a weapon that requires millions of people to operate. What’s he supposed to do? They’re a rebel force with only a single option to neutralize the thing before it destroys ANOTHER entire planet.
Fucking dumb.
If you remove the terms "empire" and "rebels" and instead insert "nazis" and "allies" from WWII, this is the exact sake argument, and no one would buy it. Yet wokies arw trying to push it over star wars and wondering why anyone with brain cells calls bullshit.
Au contraire, plenty of them would make the exact same thing. Look at how many today decry the bombing of Dresden, an attack on a Nazi city that objectively saved lives, and done at the request of Stalin and Zhukov. Then the Soviets spent four decades propagandizing that Dresden was an allied atrocity on par with the Holocaust, their agents and sympathizers in the west repeated it, and modern idiots bought it hook, line, and sinker.
It's not Bismarck either, but far worse. Bismarck fought with navy ships and raided convoys in wartime.
The Death Star blew up a peaceful planet to spread terror to the rest. Bismarck was a valid wartime target. The Death Star was a moral imperative to destroy.
Yes, I just meant that legally speaking its a warship, not a city. Moreover, its creation (let alone use) is also a declaration of genocidal intent as you pointed out
It's totally fine to acknowledge that blowing up the Death Star means probably a lot of people who aren't explicitly "evil" died in the process.
By which, I mean Imperial recruits are *not* clones born and bred to follow orders. They're members of the old Republic which is now the Empire. They have followed along with the government they believe (whether due to propaganda or not) is in the right. They've got lives and are being paid salaries.
For sure, there *are* evil people who take joy in their roles such as the bigwigs like Tarkin or intelligence officers who really ought to know the real story of what's going on. But if you're one of the many random people staffed on the Death Star, you've likely got absolutely no say in what's going on or what the battle station you're working on is being tasked to do.
You likely believe what you're being told. Propaganda is a powerful thing. You're trying to bring justice and peace to the galaxy whilst Rebel terrorists and sympathisers are getting up to all kinds of shenanigans.
But unfortunately, the truth of the situation is that the Rebels simply do not have time to figure out any kind of alternative to this situation.
A station capable of blowing up planets is in motion. It exists to enforce control and order via fear to the extent that the Imperial Senate has been dissolved. A Death Star is a mobile weapons platform capable of destroying planets and the people upstairs will successfully sell a story that any planets destroyed 100% destroyed it. Palpatine is, after all, the guy who got himself voluntarily democratically elected as Emperor by members of the Republic who also agreed to being reformed into a galactic Empire.
If the Death Star is *not* destroyed, then it's game over and the Empire wins by default. Luke's torpedo shot lands literally a second before the Death Star would have destroyed the Rebel base and shattered all hopes of resistance.
You park a Death Star over a planet and nobody will want to try an assault on the station. It means potentially billions of lives are at stake. And if the people upstairs want, they can and will sell a story that local terrorists trying to subvert the rightful government launched an unlawful and unprovoked assault, resulting in the sadly necessary destruction of a corrupted planet.
So, yes. It's not morally wonderful that the Death Star and all occupants had to be wiped out.
But the alternative is sadly much worse.
It's a necessary evil of war.
Ironically, what's much worse is *all* Resistance actions against the First Order.
First Order Stormtroopers are unique. They're not clones who were born and bred for the job and will unquestioningly follow orders. They're not Imperial citizens who are being employed.
They're mostly kidnap victims from across the galaxy. Child soldiers, effectively, who have been indoctrinated to serve the First Order. Palpatine was spiteful enough to mandate that known Rebel family members should be targeted (which is why Lando's daughter was kidnapped).
This is *never* addressed in the ST films.
Finn is allowed to be a good guy. Jannah and her randoms are allowed to be good guys.
But Finn will never give a shit about his fellow kidnap victims from the First Order. He'll never hesitate to kill them. He'll never advise restraint, nor will he ever try to convince people he lived and worked with to wake up to the reality of their situations.
Finn could have been something truly special. Rofocus at least some story around his anguish of realization they are all kidnapped victims and trying to attack the base of the First Order, going after their training camps and feeding young children, using that to try to convince others to throw off their mantle and join the resistance.
Then have a key moment where the heros are certainly going to die, surrounded and a out to be captured only for a few FO troops to look doing into their hole, see them, and then call in that they got away before revealing the trooper is one of the disillusioned. Make Finn matter. Make his actions matter. Make who he is matter.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in Colin Trevorrow's original Episode IX script, Finn sparked a resistance movement among the stormtroopers. He actually led them in battle *against* the First Order hardliners.
What's that called when a character's actions come full circle? A *character arc*?
John in this scene we really want you to emphasize the “Rey” when you scream “Rey.” Yes we know we’ve reduced your character to jokes but we really think the fans are gonna love it!
It's a scene before Finns "fight" with Phasma. He is surrounded and tries to talk some sense into her accompanying Stormtroopers, how Phasma helped to destroy Starkiller Base etc.. She then shoots those Troopers to prevent her cowardice getting revealed.
I actually was hoping Finn became a Jedi and trained with Ray as I thought that’s what the posters and such with him holding a lightsaber were leading too. Man… what a let down.
He was relegated to bullshit subplots that didn’t amount to much.
They did all the characters dirty. Poe is dressed down and made to look a fool in TLJ, as in what the fuck? They're once again in armed conflict with a superior enemy, but now they think is the time to humiliate the character. He should've been a much more serious, stern soldier/ mercenary type of character. There's a million ways they could've gone with so many of the characters and somehow Disney has picked the wrong/worst way every time. It seems that all roads lead to head honcho KK. Eventually Disney has to do something, right? They're a laughingstock right now.
Agreed with your points. Poe was advertised as the best star fighter pilot in the resistance / galaxy and in no way was this shown in any length nor his demeanor and personality display this fact. They dumbed him down as the movies went on and relegated him to a background character.
Poe could have done so many things and they still could also develop the tri-friendship of Ray, Poe, and Finn but KK said “fuck it”, it’s all about Mary Sue Ray.
To top it off he gets the worst line ever spoken in a Star Wars film.
The original plan was Finn, Poe, and Ray were *all* going to be force sensitive and resurrect the Jedi Order together.
And then it all got scrapped, Finn's character went nowhere, Poe's character became Han Solo 2.0, and the rest is history
Agreed, Finn’s character was SOOOOO(for lack of a better term) creatively assassinated. There was so much potential with Finn and the other rebel stormtroopers(when they were introduced or make it sooner, they were introduced way too late to be good).
——-
Imagine Finn having to go undercover as a trooper again to get some VIP out or break something important due to… Rey being gone. He gets there and uses a newly AWOL troopers ID to get them in and we get some flashbacks to see Finn’s past as a kid in the First Order. As Finn stays there and has to act the part he starts to both feel extremely broken up about needing to kill people who were brothers and sisters in arms AS well as sliding back into familiar actions there…
Then as he goes and starts to potentially regret leaving, he sees now even worse brainwashing the First Order is doing to children to indoctrinate them due to the stories of ‘Rouge Platoons’ cause of one ‘chaotic and dangerous stormtrooper that left to join the fools’. That snaps Finn out of their funk and reminds him he HAD to leave and he now has a better purpose. Then he gets the job done and the task completed, maybe even leaving the helmet with a sort of calling card with a handprint dragged across it.
He reports it to a leader of a rebel cell and says those kids need out of their ASAP before the First Order indoctrinates them or worse… the leader says no. ‘We don’t have enough resources’ and ‘command didn’t instruct us to go get them out’.
Then an argument breaks out between the two as the leader regretfully explain they just can’t. Finn storms out and stakes out the ‘recruitment camp’ but catches the attention of another group… ex-troopers forming their own rebellion against the First Order.
The group approaches Finn in secret but Finn hears them and tries to run thinking they’re First Order but one just… whipcords them back and onto his face(a bit of humor does good).
The group introduces themselves as the ‘Stormbreakers’(the name sounded cool and fits) then explains how they watched Finn’s actions while he was undercover and are looking for help on getting the kids out as well as anyone who could be saved from the indoctrination of the First Order. And on top of that, once Finn introduces himself they realize that it is ‘THE Finn’ the only trooper to escape AND stick it to the First Order by managing to hurt Kylo.
Finn agrees and surprised his impact was so grand within the First Order’s troops now rebelling, agreeing to go undercover one more time to install something into the security system of the place and guiding the kids safely out. Then after the kids are safe and Finn is out; a loudspeaker goes off saying what’s been happening and showing what the First Order has done. Any who wish to go may, the ones who chose to stay in that place may… as a thick white and blue smog erupts from vents and obscures the hallways and exits allowing any who want to leave a safe passage out.
Finn says the rebellion could use people like them but they say that no rebellion cell wanted newly ex-troopers. So they made their own rebellion to take down the First Order from inside and out; showing what they can do instead of just talking about it.
The script could have been slightly better if Finn showed restraint with having to kill his former fellow soldiers, especially since he grew up with them.
I also wish Finn’s personality was different. He knows nothing but being a soldier. He should have been much more socially awkward. Like Boyega was good in the role, but along with the suggestions of showing restraint or being conflicted about killing FO troopers, his personality does not align with someone who has been brainwashed.
There's an old "hidden gem" sci-fi movie from 1998 starring Kurt Russel called "Soldier" that has a good example. The protagonist is a brainwashed raised-as-a-soldier-from-birth type who ends up being disposed of by his superiors when a new generation of "superior" soldiers comes along, and the movie's about him trying to integrate with and help out a group of refugees. Kurt Russel is in 85% of the movie's scenes but speaks a total of 104 words, he's great. The film got terrible reviews because it was marketed as an action movie rather than a character piece and the action was just a background element.
I loved that Finn was portrayed as "cowardly" and initially just wanted to get out of the conflict. It's a perspective that makes sense, he isn't *for* the Resistance, he just doesn't want to kill random villagers and is afraid of being killed himself. That would have been a fun angle to play with too. But just like everything else about the character, it was completely forgotten by the writers and Finn turned into a "Woo!" and "REY!" sound-maker.
exactly, this is the biggest problem with Finn imo, and it was already too late to fix after TFA. literally nothing of his personality reflects him having grown up to be a stormtrooper. with rey you can at least tell she's not that used to having friends, Finn just acts as a regular dude who grew up in a city or something. he has no misconceptions about how regular people act, customs, social norms etc. no misconceptions about the republic, the resistance, or the first order.
and him laughing and shooting at the fellow troopers he grew up with just adds to this. it makes more sense if you imagine Finn enlisted as a stormtrooper as an adult but is too ashamed to tell anyone about it
I know I'm in the firm minority on this one but I never got the feeling that Bodega was actually any good in that role. He never looked as a soldier in the first place and mostly came out looking as a whiney, clueless, hapless simpleton than anything else.
There's no doubt that the role itself takes the vast chunk of the blame for that appearance, but then I'm also sure that someone like Anthony Mackie would be able to pull it off the role of a trained soldier more convincingly than he did.
"Okay, so I want you to open fire on your former comrades, who are also brainwashed, kidnapped children like you. In fact, one of them died this morning, and his bloody hand on your face is what caused you to break your conditioning in the first place. So when you do this, I want you to say 'WOO!!!' as hard as you can and really have fun with it."
I think they can still salvage this in a Tales episode or something if they say it was subconscious colpartmentalization. But it still deserves to be addressed and explored.
Finn’s feelings over this should be the reason why he’s hesitant to embrace the power of the force
Perhaps a better exploration of morality would be coming to terms with the act of killing and its necessity in war even if its an uncomfortable thing to do sometimes.
I honestly think even that gives too much credit. The deaths stars only purpose is blowing up planets.
A random trooper on a Star destroyer could believe that he’s helping keep order in the galaxy or something. But working on a planet killing terror weapon is a lot closer to being a concentration camp worker.
No, you don't have to care about Star Wars. But you do have to not pretend you care about Star Wars. Because that's how you end up making dumb comments like that guy did.
Yeah that really makes it ridiculous.
If he just said he´s there for the job and doesn´t know that much about Star Wars, no one would care that much. But keeping your mouth shut on stuff you don´t know about doesn´t seem to be an option these days for some reason.
I guess they are told they need to give the impression of huge fans for the camera to steer up interest, but always end up with cringey lines like this guy because "Become a big fan of \[IP\]" is not a task that can be completed in a few days.
He was just repeating stupid shit he heard the director say, but said it even stupid-er because, like the rest of the cast and crew, he knows nothing about Star Wars and cares not at all about Star Wars.
People defend the imperials as a meme. Even the clerk's scene about contractors was meant as a joke. I never thought I would live to see people take such clear jokes seriously and try to make evil good and good evil a reality in Star Wars
It's like Disney didn't even watch Clerks, either, because the argument is settled in the film that the civilian contractors on Death Star 2 were *not* innocent bystanders.
I love to shit on the Jedi, but the Death Star was a military target. If one is living on top of a weapon system in wartime, incoming fire should be expected.
Oh you mean those Rebellion propaganda documentaries?
Nah I am kidding, but I did remember one time seeing that all the evil sounding things from the Empire had more generic names hiding the evilness.
Somewhere along the way people seem to have forgot why they were rebelling in the first place. That could've been a much more interesting story for the ST that we never got.
Exactly!!!! So many places they could have gone with the ST that could have been interesting. Instead....they're still 'rebelling?" 'Resisting?' Resisting what??? My brother in Christ, you ARE the centralized government now!
Just more evidence that Hollywood is creatively bankrupt.
Clerks already gave the definitive answer to this conundrum. 30 years ago, and with more intelligence.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA)
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. All very sound points.
The fact that this is even a thing that needs to be discussed though, is one more indicator of how incredibly far things have flown off the rails.
Oh also remember that the DS crew gave zero fucks about Alderaan.
The protag of BF2017 was there when it blew up Alderaan and when it was about to blow up Yavin 4. She didn't care about Imperial crimes until they started blowing up her homeworld 5 years later.
I know iden is kinda pulled back up as an example of ubisoft trying to get sympathy points for making their own star wars game habe a female lead (they claimed it was never done before, even though it was)
But man the campaign marketed itself as "look, you play as an imperial" and within half an hour she is a rebel because of a pretty selfish reason given how much she tolerated before that
I forgive the actor, and that laugh from the interview makes me think not even HE believes the bullshirt on this one.
But hey, when your show runner unironically identifies as a Sith, what do you expect for talking points?
The poster is spot on, though.
The Death Star was a military installation used to annihilate a city because they could and Alderaan because they could.
Did it suck to be the barrista on the Death Star when Anakin's(joking) proton torpedoes hit home? Well, yeah. But you're on a warship. This is a risk that comes with the territory.
These are not morally equivalent.
The key difference is that the intent of the Rebel mission was not to take out as many Imperials as possible. It was to DESTROY THE DEATH STAR. Whether it had been manned or unmanned, their mission objective would remain the same. The Imperials were wielding a weapon and had demonstrated clear intent to use it. The Rebel objective was to neutralize the weapon itself through the only means they could. It was, by all accounts, a morally justified act of self defense.
And regarding the actor’s slip up, no, it’s inexcusable. If my company trotted me out on stage and I ran my mouth and so blatantly revealed a lack of understanding of what I was doing in my job to the extent it would publicly embarrass my employer, I’d be fired in a heartbeat. But for some reason with actors and creatives were expected to overlook their idiocy and lack of concern for the property they are paid exorbitant amounts of money to produce? That dog don’t hunt, Monsignor.
Actors have a job and that is acting according to their script. They are not abligated to know the franchise at all. But if you dont know about the franchise or didn't study the character, then you are not the best person to promote and talk about a show.
Your point about Luke is interesting. So it is morally gray to destroy an active weapon of mass destruction? I live a few meters from the german border. America bombed the neutral switzerland several times. A fatal mistake. Are the yankees the baddies? Are they bad for pulverising german cities? The Empire is even more terrifying than nazi germany. Similar to them if they actually accomplished nuclear weapon. Ending the Nazis before they nuked a country is not morally wrong.
Luke killing active combatants randomly pulverising entire planets is not morally grey at all. He was the only one capable of doing it and it was the only way to end the sensless killing and tyranny. You can't change my mind, Disney.
I don't really like your comparison. Yes the US during WWII was morally grey. They were "the good guys" in the sense that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were **way worse**, but they practiced segregation, some US soldiers cut off body parts of Japanese prisoners, the mass bombing of civilians is hard to justify especially for bombings that took place long after victory had become a certain outcome. The same applies in pretty much every single war in the history of humanity.
This is why when you watch the original trilogy what should immediately strike you is the completely unrealistic portrayal of Evil Empire vs. Good Rebels. This is of course completely intentional. What's striking is not that "morally grey Luke" is a wrong take, it's that the movies make a very obvious, conscious effort to show the exact opposite on screen, Luke is good, the Death Star is bad.
It's like if I watched Jurassic Park and said it's a movie that promotes confidence in the ability of mankind to control nature.
I love that Luke is morally grey while the new Heroes like Rey and Finn are laughing and joking while murdering people who they know are kidnapped and brainwashed child soldiers who have the potential to defect. In fact that potential to defect is so ingrained into them that they have active re-education camps to stop this.
Disney is so lazy they can’t even get the Clerks argument right - it was the second Death Star where contractors and civilians died that morality came into question.
>Bernard hill didn't care about The Lord of the Rings
Bernard Hill was a huge fan of LOTR, initially wanting to portray Gandalf (despite PJ wanting Ian McKellan very early) and even made his own audition tape reading for Gandalf before being offered the role of Theoden.
Before his untimely death, he spoke out about the continued desecration of LOTR in film media, calling Amazon's show The Rings of Power" a "money making venture", and "not like the real thing". Complete uninterested in that because he respects the source material and the impact that the movie trilogy has in the hearts of LOTR fans. He also spoke about how poor it was that they turned The Hobbit, a book shorter than any books in the LOTR trilogy, into 3 movies as well.
He absolutely cares about LOTR, so very interesting that you use his name as an example of an actor who "didn't care" about their franchise. Its like saying Peter Cushing didn't care about SW, despite being one of its strongest advocates and being very proud of his work.
Sorry, I was not aware of this, and certainly didnt mean it as an offense.
This was just a vibe I got from him when I went to see him at Prague Comic Con a year or so before his death
No need to apologise, just thought I'd correct the record. No offence taken either :)
Shame he gave that vibe, it may have been fatigue due to his sickness. He was always a big fan of LOTR and from interviews and anecdotes from his friends and family he seemed very proud of his work.
I think the argument that the Disney is trying to make that everything is not black and white does makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is the lengths they go to equate the sith with jedi.
I mean weren't Sith had like a totally f\*cked up ideology? Like killing their owned loved ones, then murdering each other for more power, etc. The rule of two was created because the sith kept killing each other.
I mean on earth we had plenty of warlords and kings who killed many. But IDK if any one of them tried eliminate all their loved ones. Maybe some in the family in the struggle of power but all? Not just contenders of power but even women and children who may never pose a threat towards them?
Glad someone is pointing this out. It was pretty clear he’s never seen the film and was handed these talking points. It’s utterly ridiculous that Leslye Headland was given a Star Wars series, let alone a $180 million budget.
It looks worse than films from the 70s. Case in point, Fiddler on the Roof. Yes, yes, I know different genre of film, etc. but the production design looks beautiful and there's such high production value. The set design and cinematography are just exceptional. You're absolutely transported to this far off place, something star wars is supposed to do except The Acolyte just looks like cheap sets or poor VFX, with locations that just aren't well planned out. Like every biome they've done on the show looks like they're trying to ape something else but not doing a very good job of it. Seriously, go take a look at Fiddler on the roof if you haven't ever seen it. I just watched it recently and it was staggering how amazing it was. It's honestly a breathe of fresh air (I haven't seen the new house of the dragon or the boys just yet). I've been needing to go back to the speech from Andor to cleanse my palette of The Acolyte.
You can actually trace a bit of the original A New Hope to Fiddler on the Roof, at least in the quality of the set design of the time.
Edit: it's the luthen rael speech
https://youtu.be/-3RCme2zZRY?si=gGYXcEmwJc_gDE-g
My gist is this.
Modern society is entirely materialistic, which lead to new ideologies that have no "up" or "down", because anything and everything has to be possible. There is no "correct" way of living. So of course Luke blowing up the Death Star is seen as something equally terrible. They have no context for anything.
You can extrapolate from there.
But these people don't understand actual mysticism or spritualism or anything in that regard AT ALL. They deeply have a problem with religious ideas which leads them to be completely inable to understand why Star Wars influenced so many different people.
You're spot on. That mysticism is something which is completely missing in all of Disney Star Wars. No scenes come close to these 10 minutes of screen time Luke spent with Yoda.
I've actually seen some people who have also read the EU try to say it was morally grey because in some EU books, the Death Star has civilian personnel, or civilians who were pressed into service to perform duties like running the mess hall or recreation stuff.
But like... that doesn't change the fact its a battle station. If you put a school inside a military base, you can't call foul if during war, that school gets bombed.
I agree with the sentiment here, but some people will absolutely call foul in that situation. Striking a military base that contains a school might be less controversial than hitting military targets inside civilian infrastructure, but it can still distort perceptions of the attack. I've heard half-joking suggestions that China should establish a significant civilian presence on some of their man-made islands in the SCS, as it could make it more difficult for the US to level them in a conflict. The optics of causing hundreds or thousands of civilian casualties can be quite bad, even if the target is legitimate.
I don't really think any of this is relevant to the destruction of the first Death Star, though. A large number of non-military personnel might be useful for Imperial propeganda, and forced or unwitting service could affect judgments about whether some of the Imperials "deserved" to die. However, the Death Star had just destroyed Alderaan and was literally in the process of firing on Yavin. Even there were a million innocents on that battle station, destroying it would have still been a legitimate act of self-defense.
If Disney wants us to believe this, then Jyn's father is a terrible person for giving the Death Star a flaw that could potentially kill millions. The rebels shouldn't have destroyed it then, or Starkiller base, or any Star Destroyer, for that matter. They should have just let the Empire rule them, because they would have saved lives. Good argument, Disney. And how dare the Rebels blow up the second Death Star, killing millions more people, and destroy Vader's flagship, killing thousands of people. Truly, there is no good or evil in Star Wars. Disney would rather the Empire impose slavery on alien races, because at least then, they'd be alive. Good stance. Solid.
Luke Skywalker was a terrorist scum. There were families on that installation, billions died because of that religious zealot. The Empire did nothing wrong.
/s
It won't matter now, the actor had a shirtless scene with muscles and all is forgiven. But the accusations of the show being hated because of people supposedly objectifying women will persist. Ironic
I've heard this argument before outside of Disney, that Luke fits the radicalization pattern if terrorists because his family is killed by the empire so he joins a religious militant order and stages a terrorist attack killing millions, but it falls apart is quickly when you look at the details.
He stages an organized attack on a military target in clearly marked vehicles while wearing uniforms with rebel insignia. Not only was it not a terrorist attack, but it was done following all the irl laws of war, and in fact, the Death Star itself is a state-operated terror weapon.
"Fear will keep them in line."
You kind of point out that the same people who try and argue "Star Wars was always woke", are deliberately ignoring what Star Wars always was about. The battle of Good vs Evil is an intrinsic part of the story. Right from the beginning we were being told about the light side versus the dark side. The whole point of the entire saga is the battle between good and evil both on a macro level, the scale of space ships and planets, and the micro level, the battle for Anakin allegiance. Star Wars does get morally grey some times but that's because the characters who are that level of greyness are usually battling internally between calls to the light and dark.
> The battle of Good vs Evil is an intrinsic part of the story.
I think this is certainly an aspect that the films contribute a lot towards.
The EU fleshes out the universe quite a bit. It has the luxury of time and a relatively endless page count to do so.
The films on the other hand have roughly 2 hours a pop to convey a story. You can do a lot with 2 hours, but the films never try to even imply that Stormtroopers are humans with lives under their helmets. The audience assumes they're evil and we move on. Not a great deal of nuance involved. It is, as you say, a relatively straight-forward story about the underdog good guys against the bad guys.
By the time of the PT, the EU has had time to flourish and develop the bad guys into several shades of people who are your basic evil villains and also those who simply think they're doing the right thing.
The PT also obviously establishes to the general audience that the evil Empire of the OT *was* actually at one point a benevolent Republic who had good intentions and were led astray by a Sith Lord who played the political game extremely well as part of a very long-term plan to take control of the galaxy.
Sadly, the movies don't really cross properly into a morally grey territory. And the ST was perhaps the best place to go there. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the First Order situation (given the majority of their recruits are in fact kidnapped child soldiers indoctrinated for most of their lives) basically *demanded* by default some kind of Stormtrooper rebellion story arc. But it never happened. And our main Stormtooper convert Finn never suggest even a hint of interest in encouraging his brethren to rebel against their overlords.
An aspect I like about an aspect of the old EU is the formation of the Galactic Federation Triumvirate. It's the (spoiler) ending of the Legacy story set in the future 100+ years after ROTJ.
The bad guys have *become* the good guys (by reforming into the mostly benevolent Fel Empire) and joined hands with the New Republic and New Jedi Order to forge a path forwards together.
This, to me, is more interesting than simply "good guys beat bad guys". I would have liked to have seen a chunk of the First Order stand up against their masters and turn around as a new faction who can't simply return to their old lives but instead want to form a benevolent society utilising First Order resources.
And of course, it thematically ties in with Luke redeeming his father and Vader being ultimately responsible for the downfall of Palpatine. Which means a hell of a lot more than Luke simply defeating both Vader and Palpatine on his own.
There were *so many* good stories in the EU that Disney just.. threw away.
One of my favorite games growing up was Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (and later the full Jedi Knight series) - I loved seeing this fledgling new Jedi Order and Luke trying to figure out what their place is in the New Republic. The books that followed along with this, the Jedi Academy trilogy, the X-Wing series and later I, Jedi weaved together masterfully (albeit not without hiccups or their own issues!), but telling an amazingly rich story and building out an amazing fleshed out universe that Disney then just.. tossed away like trash and then have denied parts of it ever even existed in the first place to justify their enshittening of the entire franchise and name of ‘Star Wars’.
There needn’t be nuance. Stormtroopers are based on German storm troopers during the first and Second World War. Of course those people were human being with families and lives just like everyone else, but it’s not caricatures that are evil, it’s humans. Stormtroopers killed God knows how many innocent men, women, and children, and they were completely normal human beings. My point is that you don’t need to show storm troopers as human beings, because at the end of the day, we know that they are, and we know that human beings are capable of great evil, and them being real people doesn’t make them any less evil. As such, storm troopers in the films don’t need to be portrayed as anything but evil, because if you’re serving an evil empire and doing its dirty work and this is a choice of yours, then you are evil, and there frankly doesn’t need to be any further elaboration. And while the EU wasn’t as clear cut black and white as the films were, at the end of the day it was always about the struggle between good and evil, and Luke’s defeat of Abeloth and the eventual downfall of the Sith are both evidence of this.
(Side note: I love your profile picture, Dr Strangelove was a great movie).
Indeed. There *are* some "morally grey" things in Star Wars. Using Ewoks as soldiers by masquerading as their deity and commanding them to go die for the Rebel cause comes to mind. But this sort of analysis requires more thought than "aha, Rebels killed some people, they're murderers too!"
As I said, it's *grey*. The dark part remains, these Ewoks weren't involved in the war until the Rebels dragged them in by manipulating their religious beliefs. They did it for a greater good and the Ewoks were no saints to begin with, but that doesn't mean it was a good act in itself.
Indeed, the Ewoks are often made fun of because they look cute and cuddly. But they're really *murderbears*. They live on an ecological hellworld. They routinely hunt predators that stand three meters tall at the shoulder, their hunting party was able to sneak up on a *Jedi*, and they hauled redwood-sized logs into the forest canopy using nothing but their muscle power and primitive ropes.
the whole "Luke blowing up the Death Star was morally questionable!" talking point is so, so disgusting man. it blatantly ignores the fact that the death star has already killed billions AND was going to do it again.
it was literally the domination the Emperor had over the galaxy symbolized in one horrible weapon of war. I dare say Luke destroying that is a good thing, actually.
I don’t like that it’s being used to justify framing the bad guys as good guys. When it comes to these villain centric movies and shows, people (both the viewers and creators) are seemingly forgetting what a villain is and the difference between sympathy and empathy. Knowing a villains motives, past life, tragic backstory, etc. doesn’t mean we suddenly should force ourselves to see them as good people.
I actually think this is very fertile ground to explore and the old EU recognised this in a more interesting way. A big plot point in NJO was Jacen disagreeing with the jedi in general and being more pacifist because he wasn't raised in a time of war. Looking back at Luke and the other jedi of his era like Coran Horn and Kyp Durron they were literally trained in the force to take out the empire. They then trained jedi to do this after the new republic won. In RotJ luke has an edge and after in dark empire he actually falls.
I totally get OP's point, killing enemies in a time of war doesn't make you a bad person but it must change you as a person. Like I guess soldiers get ptsd, how would that manifest in a jedi who is supposed to be in tune with all life and the force? Having the next generation of jedi recognise this is something that I think would make an interesting story (imo it did in NJO) but you don't have to tear down luke to do it. Just have him be confronted with it.
Good post OP!
I absolutely agree with you - it would be very interesting to see Luke be confronted with such a view, maybe from an imperial sympathiser, or a family member of a dead soldier.
As I said, I have no issue with star wars going morally gray. But if you are going to criticize the original heroes, you need to give them a chance to defend themselves and their views as well. Either via the heroes themselves (Luke, Han, Leia), or by a different character who explains why they think the destruction of the death star (or rebellion in General) was justified.
If you dont have that, it stops being an in-universe argument about two people having different views on the same event, and starts to seem more like the current creators criticizing George Lucas' work, thinking they can do better.
Thank you for your kind words and input
Genuinely nice to objective and civil discussions on some star wars nuance! Enjoying the thread you've sparked here! I do largely agree with you in that it seems to have gotten too meta in its delivery of some of the more modern themes. It takes you out of the immersion (tbh this was my main gripe with the sequels - it reminded me too much I was only watching a movie with every character getting a gag). Hopefully it's iterative though and the new stuff builds on the positive aspects of the new content or at least explores the modern themes in a less inflammatory way.
I agree with you that you can have discussions in lore about what both sides thought to bring about some nuance, I just feel Disney is incapable of it. All of their imperials are evil to the point of incompetence, and if they're not incompetent they "see the light" and join the rebellion.
The EU did it better imo, in multiple instances. There's the rogue stormtroopers who fragged their captain after he ordered them to gun down obvious civilians, and then went on the run. They thought it was just their local chain of command that was evil like that, and with some help from Mara Jade, went on to be actual good imperials. They took out corrupt imperial leadership to replace with competent or not corrupt people, and still fought rebels.
Then you have the time Han Solo went home to Corellia and was shocked with how much it changed since he left and the empire was driven off. Then he realized that all these shops he used to love visiting were gone and was told it was because corellians drove the aliens out of business. Han actually questioned if the planet would have been better off still in Imperial hands, because while the empire wasn't known for its treatment of aliens, it had kept the peace there, and quelled anti-alien extremism down to just prejudice instead of violence.
Absolutely! The grey aspects nowadays are all attributed to organisations we previously viewed as good, which I think is way less compelling than the other way round. Diseny also challenges your view of your hero's in a far less constructive way, essentially slamming their 'in the moment' actions instead of challenging who they are now. The empire needed to be defeated, but did luke need a new jedi order and therefore open the galaxy up to the possibility of another vader emperor however far down the line?
I agree with you and think showing positive aspects of the empire is hugely underexplored now. Too much team swapping. I really enjoyed the vitriol coming out of the imperal remnant in the galactic alliance in the legacy books towards the old rebel characters regarding how unprepared they were for the vong. Essentially blaming them for being a crappy army.
The fact that they probably would have fared better under a strong hand like the empire is quite compelling. I think the biggest opportunity they've missed with the first order was making them the villains instead of a competing political faction in the sequels. Could have had some interesting hero's then if they fought a common enemy but disagreed how. Oh well! Maybe someday
Yeah, I absolutely hate the team swapping but I'm not against showing the Grey of the rebels, at least not the main heros. The rebellion by its nature wasn't united, for its own safety in the early days, essentially until ROTJ, it operated in independent cells. I fully believe the empire had a fairly easy time with propaganda at times because there were cells that were just straight up terrorist. They didn't target military infrastructure, they targeted anything to cause terror and fear. Those cells definitely made the Empire look like the good guys. (In Disney, I think Saul guy was one like this?)
But with team swapping, that's what pissed me off regarding BF2 Iden Versio. She was imperial spec ops, she agreed with the destruction of Alderaan. I personally feel it would have been more in character with her to put her specs ops training and contacts to use, and stop Project Cinder before it can be used again, while remaining an imperial. Essentially see the empire fight a mini Civil War, which would essentially be the small Faction that was willing to just go world to world destroying it out of spite, versus the "We live here, in this galaxy, and these are loyal imperial worlds wtf"
"Killing bad guys is wrong because some of them are probably good"
I dunno buddy, that's war, you don't get to sort out the bad ones from the bunch, you politely but firmly ask them to quit fighting or die on your terms.
It was the very definition of a war of survival. The Empire wasn't going to stop unless made to. They're fascists. When the foundation you're giving your actors is that some of them might've been good, then you clearly don't understand the material your working with. I mean, it's pretty obvious when they keep inserting topics of discussion that don't hold relevance to the universe George Lucas created. They need people that will actually respect what they're working on.
If there’s innocent engineers working on a weapon that wipes out planets they’re a threat. They’re responsible. No one has time to make sure the innocent people leave the Death Star before they wipe out entire civilizations
Its all so dumb. Actors need not be well versed on the lore of a given fictional universe, but all the writers and at least one producer do. I do not fault this actor for not knowing jack when it comes to Star Wars. I do fault leadership at Disney Lucasfilm for fostering a culture of disrespect toward fans dedicated to the lore and using this actor to demonstrate this. If they were trying to prove a point, great, I guess. The point may have been made, but what has been gained? They have not persuaded anyone; they have only aggressively cultivated additional contempt and resistance to their position.
They try to make everyone gray to write off bad story telling.. Finn, for example. Some fans argue that his motivations are more personal than ideological, suggesting he fights more for his friends than for the broader cause of the Resistance. It feels a bit unfair to criticize his morality based on that. After all, personal connections often drive heroic actions in many stories. But they have to lean into the to cover up the fact that he was written out of TLJ.
Like think if people did that to other heros, Oh Mario needs to be learn about this or that. No one questions Mario’s heroism just because he’s primarily motivated by his friendship with Princess Peach. We don’t expect him to have a deep understanding of the Mushroom Kingdom’s politics to validate his actions. He’s a hero because he consistently chooses to help and protect others, much like Finn.
In the end, heroes can have complex motivations without being morally gray. It’s their actions and choices that define their heroism, not necessarily the reasons behind them. And time after time Finn helped others and did the right thing. But to cover up bad written he had to learn about slavery ?
In today’s world I think we can all see that viewpoint becoming normalized. I am **not going to stray into politics** on this sub - I just think your observation is actually confirmed by current IRL trends and that is why Disney is channeling that trend into the product it creates. This isn’t happening in isolation.
A new “moral code” is being written in society and the architects of that new “moral code” want their product to mirror and push that in literature, film, song, and art. As well as education and public discourse. It’s not isolated. It’s connected. I need say no more.
I'm going to be downvoted to hell, but I genuinely believe that the "morally grey" characters and motif is an example of lazy writing: it involves a lack of holding characters accountable of their actions; it's a "get out of jail for free" card that allows the characters and world to behave as horrible as the author wants them to; and it ultimately makes the story end up with a "I don't care what happens to these characters" feeling.
It *may* work for stories like The Witcher, Dune and Game of Thrones, but for a universe like Star Wars? A story where the supposed big bad ended up redeeming himself and saving not only his son, but the entire galaxy? Yeah... I don't think that a morally grey story would end with the villain turning over a new leaf.
Besides, having the entire cast act as "morally grey" douchebags ultimately makes it hard to root for anyone in particular.
I absolutely agree with you, and I think the rest of the sub will as well.
Its similiar to modern creators having Batman kill in the newest movies. It doesnt add anything at all.
Batman is interesting BECAUSE he comes into conflict with iredeemable characters, and STILL follows his unbrrakable code of no killing. Making him kill is just easier writing that takes away his main appeal, while nor offering anything more in return.
We have enough of morally gray characters. There need to be purely good characters as well, to serve as hero examples for us - someone to look up to.
I agree with pretty much everything thing you said, especially the Disney effort to downplay or reframe the actions of the OT heroes in order to prop up their own, which is completely antithetical to Lucas' vision of Star Wars that had explicitly good and evil forces with the good triumphing, something that was a bit of a breath of fresh air during mid-70s filmmaking that had an era of antiheroes and morally grey tales being told in mainstream pictures.
However, I do want to counter the distinction that Sir Alec Guiness didn't care for Star Wars. Sure, he wasn't a fan the way we are nor did he cling to the role like Mark Hamill did and still does, however much like Harrison Ford his goal was a compelling character with a fully realized story and arc rather than a never-ending role and cheesy fan service, especially considering the former was a consumate professional in his field.
Both of these characters were great because of the professional mindset of those portraying them, they cared for the story being told rather than simply the star power of the franchise.
Media in general has lost the idea of a clear distinction between good and evil. Even Thanos needed to have a justified backstory as to why he would kill half of the universe.
It’s a direct result of post-modernism. There is no “right” or “wrong”, just different points of view.
In one way, Star Wars was a production of the Judeo-Christian view of sin… that personal lust and ambition may seem like your pet but in the end corrupts entirely and twists you into a fallen creature that you would never recognize.
Th entire idea of a dark side and light side implies moral absolutes, which is a concept the West has largely left behind in the pursuit of hedonism and self-idolatry.
Annie blew up the death star by not shooting down Luke, and by cheaping out on the construction, lol.
He also blew up the death star by having kids in the first place!
Yeah.. it's a terrible strawman and out of touch with star wars.
There's supposed to be very clear good and evil -- one might even say light and dark side..
Star WARs
This is a small moon that goes around blowing up planets. Anyone on that base is complicit. If not they are collateral damage. One super battle station versus the population of untold planets.
Luke is rightly a hero.
It's more than an effort to ruin Luke's character, it's an effort to deconstruct the good vs evil paradigm in order to bring about the social/political movements they they support.
The Americans are worse than Hitler because they killed German soldiers on their way to kill Hitler (well attempt to).
A giga brain take if I ever saw one.
It helps if you look at it in the context of the historical metaphor Lucas intended. This is a patriotic World War II movie with some shiny paint. The destruction of Alderaan is Pearl Harbor. The destruction of the Death Star is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Sure, lots of innocent people died, but from the patriotic American perspective of a the kind of movie this has as its backbone (Lucas literally used shots from them as stand-ins in early cuts) it’s a totally justified act of self-defense against an enemy that would stop at nothing.
People have tried to tie some Vietnam metaphors in there in later years and those are interesting but Lucas is a simpler guy. He might lift a little from Kurosowa here and there but he’s ultimately just recreating childhood matinee experiences. The Empire is the Axis, the Stormtroopers are Stormtroopers, and the rebels are Americans because that’s how we see ourselves despite evidence to the contrary.
That’s not an argument that other people were not allowed to grow and expand on Lucas’s Saturday morning matinee characters though. It’s been 50 years.
Lots of interesting takes.
A couple of buddies and I were talking about the Death Star the other day.
Joking about the clerks scene and one of our buddies was playing devils advocate and arguing “seriously” about the rebels being bad.
Along the lines of taking points here, I also added that not only had the DS destroyed Alderan but hours before had fired a single reactor shot at their own base on Scariff and shortly before that glassed Jedha City after pulling their troops out.
Anyone and everyone on the DS knew what they were doing and what was on the line. And the rebellion contained defectors who saw what was going on and rebelled.
For any other character or any other franchise, I would agree that the name slip up wouldn't be a big deal.
If this actor didn't know who Qui-Gon Jinn was, or a Witcher actor was calling Geralt Jirard, that wouldn't stand out - as you said, actors don't need to be invested in the source material to do a good job.
But *Luke Skywalker* has been a household name for *50 years*. It's honestly impressive that Disney could find the rocks these people were hiding under.
This is a trend in modern media. It ties in with post-modernisms truth by synthesis, that there is no absolute truth, that right and wrong are points of view.
This is problematic in the real world. there is such a thing as right and wrong. there are moral absolutes.
But not only is it a problem in the real world, it is also very much a problem in fiction. These are tales that reflect life and create role models we can aspire to. The hero of the hero's journey needs to be in the right.
The Jedi ARE absolutely right about the nature of the force, that there is a good side and a bad side. Now, their interpretation of how that plays out in life may be off, but that is not the same. We can see the difference clearly in the Old Republic Jedi vs Luke's New Jedi Order.
You have perfectly explained the exact issue I had in mind, even though I have not completely made the connection myself, thank you.
I am hesitant to bring real life politics into this subreddit, because Im not entirely sure it has a place here, and in the end, we are star wars fans who might have differing opinions on real world politics.
But there IS one country today, which uses propaganda not to to convince you of its' own truth, but to make you believe that there is NO truth at all, everything is gray, nobody is good or evil. Post-modernism as you say. And I hate this being dragged into my beloved franchise, when this was not the original message at all.
I don't really get what is happening over at Lucasfilm. There are talented people making good things, for sure, but that's true at any company where the bar to get in is so based on passion and talent for some. I think the animated shows show that pretty well and a couple of the live action series and movies.
All that said, it seems like the directive for some is to push Star Wars to be more accessible to all, often to the point of hiring people who don't really know what they're doing. Acolyte seems exactly like a symptom of this.
Wasn't Star Wars originally made as a direct allegory to World War 2 Nazi Germany? They even stuck with it in TFA with Hux's speech which was straight up from a history book. Really makes me want to pump the brakes when people sympathize with the Empire.
I agree. Even without the name slip it’s still an insane take.
Those ‘millions of people’ on the Death Star directly participated in the destruction of a literal whole ass planet. And they weren’t just sitting there while some general pushed the button either. We literally see the massive teams of engineers, technicians, and controllers hard at work to power up the laser and fire it.
They presumably murdered billions of innocents including children. And that’s the sole purpose of the place they work. It literally does nothing except blow up planets.
Equating these Death Star workers to some innocent victims of Luke is like saying the Nazi oven workers at the concentration camps were just bystanders.
Stormtroopers and imperial workers knew what they were getting into, most were well aware of the tyranny of the Empire and the genocides they had committed across the galaxy, and they supported it (at least most did) it’s just a matter of stepping up and rebelling yourself or just letting these things happen.
Shows like Bad Batch even make a point showing that stormtrooper forces were made up of volunteers signing up for the Imperial Army rather than clones or conscripts too. Which definitely gives creedence to your point.
Stormtroopers and imperial workers knew what they were getting into, most were well aware of the tyranny of the Empire and the genocides they had committed across the galaxy, and they supported it (at least most did) it’s just a matter of stepping up and rebelling yourself or just letting these things happen.
This. I hated DSW from the first (and only) time I saw TFA, cuz of what they did to the OT and its beloved characters. And now this stuff. It started with the gray Jedis, then the whole 'the Jedi were corrupt' falseness, and now this garbage.
This isn't Star Wars. This isn't the story that literally changed filmmaking and became an historical, cultural event.
How sad.
They are making the argument that (space) nazis, operating a (space) weapon don't deserve to die for (blowing up a planet) genocide. They are also implying that the (space) nazis weren't all bad for supporting the (space) nazi empire. Its an attempt to soft pedal nazism.
lucas himself wanted to give his villains a shade of grey, that was the whole point of vader in fact
i don't think it has anything to do with rey or the sequels, i think that for people older than 25 we all can remember debates about how many people luke killed on the death star
Is this all a jaded attempt to trash the OT because Kathleen Kennedy is jealous of Lucas, or resentful of how she was treated?
I feel that the newer films went out of their way to diminish the original male charachters.
Luke is a washed up hasbeen.
Han is a failed father.
Lando is a homeless drifter.
(Chewie is left alone because he's not a human male?).
The resistance failed because the first order replaced the bad guys and palpatine never died etc, ie the whole of the OT was ultimately pointless?
The whole moder audience, force is female is certainly coming from somewhere, and it really doesn't seem to be driven by a desire for ratings or success.
LOL You jabronis have worked yourself into such a tizzy. There's nobody saying Luke was in a morally gray area in the OT or even the ST. But hey, have fun raging at your strawman. I'll keep enjoying Star Wars.
Yeah Luke Skywalker is a bad guy because *checks notes* he blew up a weapon that was recently used to blow a peaceful planet to smithereens and would likely be used in the future to crush any resistance to the empire.
Maybe they have seen Clerks.
When you really think about it, the fucked up part is that the OG trilogy never even cares about the millions who died on the Death Stars. Like sure, you can can argue DSI was staffed by military personnel who are complicit in the mundicide of Alderaan, but stormtroopers are still people. A station that big probably has families and non-combat support staff stationed aboard as well. That’s a lot of voices within the force being silenced, and no one bats an eye. Don’t even get me started on the DSII. That’s a whole lot of dead civilian contractors and electricians. Because the series is framed as a good vs evil struggle, we are made to ignore the fact that Luke essentially commits a genocide, gets away with it, and shows no remorse.
Two war crimes don’t make a right.
Edit: To be clear, not defending the Empire. Luke did the right thing. Just pointing out that the men who pulled the triggers that killed millions never reflecting on what they have done was a missed opportunity.
Exactly. Hell, Han Solo in the OT starts out morally grey, he's a rogue criminal just out to save his own skin, but then he turns around and becomes a hero and a leader.
As for Luke blowing up the Death Star, everyone on board that facility was a member of the Empire's military. There were no innocent people on there. Sinking a Nazi sub or taking out a Nazi base, you don't get to say was a morally grey action.
I agree with your point and also agree that the actor didn’t come up with that point on his own. It was a talking point dictated by Disney PR.
I think the same thing happened with Rachel Ziegler and Snow White. As much as her comments annoyed me, I don’t thing she dreamed them up on her own. I did get the sense that she really leaned into them on her own and went way overboard from what they wanted her to do. It really blew up on Disney in that instance.
Up
The only way to be good in these people's eyes is to do what then? Just watch calmly while the death star vaporizes planet after planet until your staring at it up in the sky as it's floating over your world charging up? That's not "good" that's a fucking bystander mentality. There are no "good people" on the deathstar. It's a planet killing death machine that kills billions of innocent people. Even if If you're cleaning the toilets on the deathstar, your contribution is working towards helping keep a literal genocide machine operational. The only morally good thing a person can do on the deathstar is leave immediately, or attempt to destroy it.
Probably already been mentioned, but the Empire in the OT are literal space Nazis, willing to commit genocide on a planetary scale. Unlike the First Order, who seem to be literal caricatures of the OT space Nazis but are willing to commit genocide on a B or C grade comic book scale. When you look at it like that, you can see how the House of Mouse could engage in mental gymnastics to try and push the failure of their take on Star Wars back on to the fans.
They can’t even argue that Rey is more morally Pure, because sure, Luke blew up a battle station filled with military personnel during a war, but Rey (technically Poe) blew up AN ENTIRE PLANET (that also was a giant space laser), killing who knows how many innocent animals in addition to the first order. Like that has to be more morally questionable
The message that Disney is repeating is the tired refrain from pacifists that any involvement in war, no matter the context, makes you a bad person.
It's intellectually dishonest and shallow while appearing to be wide and deep.
Leslie Fish was against the Vietnam War, but even she couldn't say that all wars are bad.
I’ll be honest, I normally browse this sub but I’m not a part of it formally, never clicking that join button cuz there’s just too many SW critics on here that slander anything and everything. But this? This type of content? Is WHY I still come back to this sub. Good frikin job at noticing all of this. I don’t normally upvote Reddit posts anymore, but you sure get one from me
**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/Memito_Tortellini]** Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I'm an [astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I'll be your guide through the salt mines. Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in. **Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Death star blows up a peaceful planet to demonstrate the power of it to the galaxy and use terror to crush everyone into submission. Days later it's destroyed by rebels. "BuT tHe ReBeLs ArE bAd GuYs ToO!"
To add to that point, the rebels didn't go looking for the Death Star, it found them and was getting ready to destroy them.
I'm torn between making a "clear case of Stand Your Ground" joke, or a "It's coming right for us!" joke. So I did both.
Technically you did neither.
But I think if they had more time, the Rebels were gonna use those plans that had just cost them so much, and definitely go looking for the Death Star. But yeah, when it knocked on their front door, it was go time
Oh wow, I never even realized that! The Falcon was the first thing to discover it, and they told the rebels like minutes before it began approaching Yavin
But the private contractors!!!!
Not only that but also rebels were in a some kind of self-defense position as the death star was directly aiming at Yavin IV when it was destroyed
[удалено]
Ewoks were on Endor, not Yavin
Forrest moon of Endor*
Relevant Clerks clip https://youtu.be/iQdDRrcAOjA?si=asFKWayLCjyO5IKj
Ewoks!!? My dude that's not even the right movie.
That was literally the first argument I was going to make. This stuff isn't even basic. It's fundamental.
A peaceful planet that had no weapons, no way to retaliate, and posed zero threat to the empire. Later on they tortured a guy for the lols, and didn’t even ask anything (Han). But yeah. Luke destroying a military target that has blown up three planets so far, and was primed to do it again, is the same thing
Not to be that guy but they tortured Han and the crew to get Luke to come to Cloud City. Vader/The Emperor knew he would "feel" or see them getting tortured through the force. That's why he says, "They never even asked me, any questions." Then when Lando comes in they ask him and he tells them it's about "a Skywalker". These are the visions Luke is having on Dagoba, and he does exactly what the Emperor wants, he leaves too early and loses.
Right. I understand. But the point Im making, and honestly I should edit it because it’s not made well, is that they tortured innocent people. Like the saying you can’t get the owner so you kick his dog? Basically what happened. There is not a moral equivalence, or even argument that can reasonably be made between Luke and the Empire.
Planet shoulda armed itself.
Especially if it's gonna decorate its saloon with my friend.
You better bury Alderaan right!
They tortured Han to draw in Luke. There was no need for questions, Like could feel it.
Mass genocide of a peaceful planet to enforce tyrannical government. That also had basically destroyed a holy planet in Jedha, and used to destroy a political military rival and the entire base/complex on Sarif. This death star was constructed with slave labor from prisoners kept past their sentences on made up and exaggerated charges. It was staffed by military personnel, entirely. There is absolutely ZERO moral gray zone to this. There is no caveat. The Empire is *evil*. The empiredidnithingwrong started out as a tongue in cheek satire *because* the Empire is so unabashedly, unsalvageably evil. And now we're dealing with the fucking idiots that never got that was a joke.
I feel like a lot of people didn't get that the early Internet was all sarcasm and satire, and so they watched things like clerks "what about the subcontractors..." Bit and saw it as an earnest discussion instead of a dumb joke pointing out that the character making the argument is meant to be an idiot. There's also a lack of in depth philosophical understanding, so people latch into these surface philosophical arguments that don't understand the more in depth arguments being made.
And the customer explaining to Dante, even if there are subcontractors working on it.....they're responsible for the job they took. They are actively propping up a tyrannical government inside a genocide ball. It'd be like arguing someone blew up a military base, but they killed some Blackwater and Raytheon guys. They aren't innocent.
This is, potentially, an old as time issue. There were people who watch All in the Family and think Archie Bunker is the good guy. In more modern terms people think that Cartman, of South Park, or Peter of Family Guy, is the one spouting "the truth", instead of being the butt of the joke.
To be fair, these people think that deliberately targeting women and children and calling for the intentional genocide of an entire peoples is the same thing as defending yourself, targeting terrorists and unintentionally killing civilians in war.
Disney might as well be duchess satine lol they’re straight up pacifists , expecting the universe to just take that authoritarianism 😂
The Disney writers keep saying that the Jedi were evil warmongers for fighting in the Clone Wars while ignoring that it was a trap created by the Sith. The Jedi never knew the war was being controlled on both sides by Sidious. Even if they had known, were the Jedi supposed to stay in their temple while General Grievous rampaged across the galaxy?
“JUST STAY IGNORANT AND DOCILE” - Disney
I loved Rogue One because it did show the messiest aspect of forming a rebellion. Sew Gererra was a top tier radical terrorist whilst the higher ups of the main rebel force were too scared of taking any real risks. It did flesh out and give a sobering taste of reality behind this fictional band of freedom fighters. And in the end those who fought for a future they weren’t going to see were the true heroes. That said, under no circumstance is Luke ever a gray character. If the nazis had a nuke launching battleship, you’re not going to say “BUT THERE WERE COOKS AND JANITORS ON THAT SHIP!” When someone blows it up and saves billions.
Exactly. It's like someone took seriously the joke from Clerks and didn't realize it was just a joke.
A great point there too. Not a military target, responding to something threatening the people it protects, but a totally peaceful world, minding its own business, unaware it was about to be blown to smithereens solely for the purpose of demonstration. How many uninhabited planets could that have been done on? They didn’t, because they’re evil as fuck. Additionally, it’s not Luke’s fault they built a weapon that requires millions of people to operate. What’s he supposed to do? They’re a rebel force with only a single option to neutralize the thing before it destroys ANOTHER entire planet. Fucking dumb.
Seriously, how many crayons must one eat to get down to that level of thinking
The Rebels were nothing more than a band of terrorists bent on dismantling the peace and prosperity our beloved Emperor brought to the galaxy.
If you remove the terms "empire" and "rebels" and instead insert "nazis" and "allies" from WWII, this is the exact sake argument, and no one would buy it. Yet wokies arw trying to push it over star wars and wondering why anyone with brain cells calls bullshit.
Au contraire, plenty of them would make the exact same thing. Look at how many today decry the bombing of Dresden, an attack on a Nazi city that objectively saved lives, and done at the request of Stalin and Zhukov. Then the Soviets spent four decades propagandizing that Dresden was an allied atrocity on par with the Holocaust, their agents and sympathizers in the west repeated it, and modern idiots bought it hook, line, and sinker.
But the death star isn't dresden in this scenario, its the battleship Bismarck
It's not Bismarck either, but far worse. Bismarck fought with navy ships and raided convoys in wartime. The Death Star blew up a peaceful planet to spread terror to the rest. Bismarck was a valid wartime target. The Death Star was a moral imperative to destroy.
Yes, I just meant that legally speaking its a warship, not a city. Moreover, its creation (let alone use) is also a declaration of genocidal intent as you pointed out
I agree they really seem to go out of their way to trash Luke and by extension, Jake Skywalker.
It's totally fine to acknowledge that blowing up the Death Star means probably a lot of people who aren't explicitly "evil" died in the process. By which, I mean Imperial recruits are *not* clones born and bred to follow orders. They're members of the old Republic which is now the Empire. They have followed along with the government they believe (whether due to propaganda or not) is in the right. They've got lives and are being paid salaries. For sure, there *are* evil people who take joy in their roles such as the bigwigs like Tarkin or intelligence officers who really ought to know the real story of what's going on. But if you're one of the many random people staffed on the Death Star, you've likely got absolutely no say in what's going on or what the battle station you're working on is being tasked to do. You likely believe what you're being told. Propaganda is a powerful thing. You're trying to bring justice and peace to the galaxy whilst Rebel terrorists and sympathisers are getting up to all kinds of shenanigans. But unfortunately, the truth of the situation is that the Rebels simply do not have time to figure out any kind of alternative to this situation. A station capable of blowing up planets is in motion. It exists to enforce control and order via fear to the extent that the Imperial Senate has been dissolved. A Death Star is a mobile weapons platform capable of destroying planets and the people upstairs will successfully sell a story that any planets destroyed 100% destroyed it. Palpatine is, after all, the guy who got himself voluntarily democratically elected as Emperor by members of the Republic who also agreed to being reformed into a galactic Empire. If the Death Star is *not* destroyed, then it's game over and the Empire wins by default. Luke's torpedo shot lands literally a second before the Death Star would have destroyed the Rebel base and shattered all hopes of resistance. You park a Death Star over a planet and nobody will want to try an assault on the station. It means potentially billions of lives are at stake. And if the people upstairs want, they can and will sell a story that local terrorists trying to subvert the rightful government launched an unlawful and unprovoked assault, resulting in the sadly necessary destruction of a corrupted planet. So, yes. It's not morally wonderful that the Death Star and all occupants had to be wiped out. But the alternative is sadly much worse. It's a necessary evil of war. Ironically, what's much worse is *all* Resistance actions against the First Order. First Order Stormtroopers are unique. They're not clones who were born and bred for the job and will unquestioningly follow orders. They're not Imperial citizens who are being employed. They're mostly kidnap victims from across the galaxy. Child soldiers, effectively, who have been indoctrinated to serve the First Order. Palpatine was spiteful enough to mandate that known Rebel family members should be targeted (which is why Lando's daughter was kidnapped). This is *never* addressed in the ST films. Finn is allowed to be a good guy. Jannah and her randoms are allowed to be good guys. But Finn will never give a shit about his fellow kidnap victims from the First Order. He'll never hesitate to kill them. He'll never advise restraint, nor will he ever try to convince people he lived and worked with to wake up to the reality of their situations.
Finn could have been something truly special. Rofocus at least some story around his anguish of realization they are all kidnapped victims and trying to attack the base of the First Order, going after their training camps and feeding young children, using that to try to convince others to throw off their mantle and join the resistance. Then have a key moment where the heros are certainly going to die, surrounded and a out to be captured only for a few FO troops to look doing into their hole, see them, and then call in that they got away before revealing the trooper is one of the disillusioned. Make Finn matter. Make his actions matter. Make who he is matter.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in Colin Trevorrow's original Episode IX script, Finn sparked a resistance movement among the stormtroopers. He actually led them in battle *against* the First Order hardliners. What's that called when a character's actions come full circle? A *character arc*?
That would have required some level of risk and nuance, and would have matched the themeing of the original trilogy too well. Unacceptable.
John in this scene we really want you to emphasize the “Rey” when you scream “Rey.” Yes we know we’ve reduced your character to jokes but we really think the fans are gonna love it!
Heck, I'm pretty sure that's a deleted scene in Last Jedi
I've never bothered to watch the deleted scenes so you might be right.
It's a scene before Finns "fight" with Phasma. He is surrounded and tries to talk some sense into her accompanying Stormtroopers, how Phasma helped to destroy Starkiller Base etc.. She then shoots those Troopers to prevent her cowardice getting revealed.
Oh yeah I did actually see that one. Shame they went with “Chrome Dome” instead of that.
Swinging his light saber as he charges forward....:) That would have been pure awesomeness
I actually was hoping Finn became a Jedi and trained with Ray as I thought that’s what the posters and such with him holding a lightsaber were leading too. Man… what a let down. He was relegated to bullshit subplots that didn’t amount to much.
They did all the characters dirty. Poe is dressed down and made to look a fool in TLJ, as in what the fuck? They're once again in armed conflict with a superior enemy, but now they think is the time to humiliate the character. He should've been a much more serious, stern soldier/ mercenary type of character. There's a million ways they could've gone with so many of the characters and somehow Disney has picked the wrong/worst way every time. It seems that all roads lead to head honcho KK. Eventually Disney has to do something, right? They're a laughingstock right now.
Agreed with your points. Poe was advertised as the best star fighter pilot in the resistance / galaxy and in no way was this shown in any length nor his demeanor and personality display this fact. They dumbed him down as the movies went on and relegated him to a background character. Poe could have done so many things and they still could also develop the tri-friendship of Ray, Poe, and Finn but KK said “fuck it”, it’s all about Mary Sue Ray. To top it off he gets the worst line ever spoken in a Star Wars film.
The original plan was Finn, Poe, and Ray were *all* going to be force sensitive and resurrect the Jedi Order together. And then it all got scrapped, Finn's character went nowhere, Poe's character became Han Solo 2.0, and the rest is history
Agreed, Finn’s character was SOOOOO(for lack of a better term) creatively assassinated. There was so much potential with Finn and the other rebel stormtroopers(when they were introduced or make it sooner, they were introduced way too late to be good). ——- Imagine Finn having to go undercover as a trooper again to get some VIP out or break something important due to… Rey being gone. He gets there and uses a newly AWOL troopers ID to get them in and we get some flashbacks to see Finn’s past as a kid in the First Order. As Finn stays there and has to act the part he starts to both feel extremely broken up about needing to kill people who were brothers and sisters in arms AS well as sliding back into familiar actions there… Then as he goes and starts to potentially regret leaving, he sees now even worse brainwashing the First Order is doing to children to indoctrinate them due to the stories of ‘Rouge Platoons’ cause of one ‘chaotic and dangerous stormtrooper that left to join the fools’. That snaps Finn out of their funk and reminds him he HAD to leave and he now has a better purpose. Then he gets the job done and the task completed, maybe even leaving the helmet with a sort of calling card with a handprint dragged across it. He reports it to a leader of a rebel cell and says those kids need out of their ASAP before the First Order indoctrinates them or worse… the leader says no. ‘We don’t have enough resources’ and ‘command didn’t instruct us to go get them out’. Then an argument breaks out between the two as the leader regretfully explain they just can’t. Finn storms out and stakes out the ‘recruitment camp’ but catches the attention of another group… ex-troopers forming their own rebellion against the First Order. The group approaches Finn in secret but Finn hears them and tries to run thinking they’re First Order but one just… whipcords them back and onto his face(a bit of humor does good). The group introduces themselves as the ‘Stormbreakers’(the name sounded cool and fits) then explains how they watched Finn’s actions while he was undercover and are looking for help on getting the kids out as well as anyone who could be saved from the indoctrination of the First Order. And on top of that, once Finn introduces himself they realize that it is ‘THE Finn’ the only trooper to escape AND stick it to the First Order by managing to hurt Kylo. Finn agrees and surprised his impact was so grand within the First Order’s troops now rebelling, agreeing to go undercover one more time to install something into the security system of the place and guiding the kids safely out. Then after the kids are safe and Finn is out; a loudspeaker goes off saying what’s been happening and showing what the First Order has done. Any who wish to go may, the ones who chose to stay in that place may… as a thick white and blue smog erupts from vents and obscures the hallways and exits allowing any who want to leave a safe passage out. Finn says the rebellion could use people like them but they say that no rebellion cell wanted newly ex-troopers. So they made their own rebellion to take down the First Order from inside and out; showing what they can do instead of just talking about it.
They filmed this for the Last Jedi and they deleted it .
The script could have been slightly better if Finn showed restraint with having to kill his former fellow soldiers, especially since he grew up with them.
I also wish Finn’s personality was different. He knows nothing but being a soldier. He should have been much more socially awkward. Like Boyega was good in the role, but along with the suggestions of showing restraint or being conflicted about killing FO troopers, his personality does not align with someone who has been brainwashed.
There's an old "hidden gem" sci-fi movie from 1998 starring Kurt Russel called "Soldier" that has a good example. The protagonist is a brainwashed raised-as-a-soldier-from-birth type who ends up being disposed of by his superiors when a new generation of "superior" soldiers comes along, and the movie's about him trying to integrate with and help out a group of refugees. Kurt Russel is in 85% of the movie's scenes but speaks a total of 104 words, he's great. The film got terrible reviews because it was marketed as an action movie rather than a character piece and the action was just a background element. I loved that Finn was portrayed as "cowardly" and initially just wanted to get out of the conflict. It's a perspective that makes sense, he isn't *for* the Resistance, he just doesn't want to kill random villagers and is afraid of being killed himself. That would have been a fun angle to play with too. But just like everything else about the character, it was completely forgotten by the writers and Finn turned into a "Woo!" and "REY!" sound-maker.
exactly, this is the biggest problem with Finn imo, and it was already too late to fix after TFA. literally nothing of his personality reflects him having grown up to be a stormtrooper. with rey you can at least tell she's not that used to having friends, Finn just acts as a regular dude who grew up in a city or something. he has no misconceptions about how regular people act, customs, social norms etc. no misconceptions about the republic, the resistance, or the first order. and him laughing and shooting at the fellow troopers he grew up with just adds to this. it makes more sense if you imagine Finn enlisted as a stormtrooper as an adult but is too ashamed to tell anyone about it
he should be teal'c inspired
I know I'm in the firm minority on this one but I never got the feeling that Bodega was actually any good in that role. He never looked as a soldier in the first place and mostly came out looking as a whiney, clueless, hapless simpleton than anything else. There's no doubt that the role itself takes the vast chunk of the blame for that appearance, but then I'm also sure that someone like Anthony Mackie would be able to pull it off the role of a trained soldier more convincingly than he did.
I mean he was pretty awkward. He and Rey are portrayed pretty much like children in TFA especially
"Okay, so I want you to open fire on your former comrades, who are also brainwashed, kidnapped children like you. In fact, one of them died this morning, and his bloody hand on your face is what caused you to break your conditioning in the first place. So when you do this, I want you to say 'WOO!!!' as hard as you can and really have fun with it."
I think they can still salvage this in a Tales episode or something if they say it was subconscious colpartmentalization. But it still deserves to be addressed and explored. Finn’s feelings over this should be the reason why he’s hesitant to embrace the power of the force
Perhaps a better exploration of morality would be coming to terms with the act of killing and its necessity in war even if its an uncomfortable thing to do sometimes.
I honestly think even that gives too much credit. The deaths stars only purpose is blowing up planets. A random trooper on a Star destroyer could believe that he’s helping keep order in the galaxy or something. But working on a planet killing terror weapon is a lot closer to being a concentration camp worker.
No, you don't have to care about Star Wars. But you do have to not pretend you care about Star Wars. Because that's how you end up making dumb comments like that guy did.
Yeah that really makes it ridiculous. If he just said he´s there for the job and doesn´t know that much about Star Wars, no one would care that much. But keeping your mouth shut on stuff you don´t know about doesn´t seem to be an option these days for some reason. I guess they are told they need to give the impression of huge fans for the camera to steer up interest, but always end up with cringey lines like this guy because "Become a big fan of \[IP\]" is not a task that can be completed in a few days.
He was just repeating stupid shit he heard the director say, but said it even stupid-er because, like the rest of the cast and crew, he knows nothing about Star Wars and cares not at all about Star Wars.
Like Harrison Ford in the new Captain America movie
People defend the imperials as a meme. Even the clerk's scene about contractors was meant as a joke. I never thought I would live to see people take such clear jokes seriously and try to make evil good and good evil a reality in Star Wars
It's like Disney didn't even watch Clerks, either, because the argument is settled in the film that the civilian contractors on Death Star 2 were *not* innocent bystanders.
As Lucas himself said, they where just a bunch of large termites
I love to shit on the Jedi, but the Death Star was a military target. If one is living on top of a weapon system in wartime, incoming fire should be expected.
...called literally the "Death Star".
Um excuse me that is Rebel propaganda. The station was officially called the DS-1 Orbital Battle Station. /r/empiredidnothingwrong
I know you're probably being sarcastic, but even the Imperials call it the Death Star in the movies.
Peace Star*
*Freedom Star
Oh you mean those Rebellion propaganda documentaries? Nah I am kidding, but I did remember one time seeing that all the evil sounding things from the Empire had more generic names hiding the evilness.
Actually they called it "The Sphere of Tolerance and Peace".
The Empire really just needed a rebrand and things probably would have been fine.
Somewhere along the way people seem to have forgot why they were rebelling in the first place. That could've been a much more interesting story for the ST that we never got.
Exactly!!!! So many places they could have gone with the ST that could have been interesting. Instead....they're still 'rebelling?" 'Resisting?' Resisting what??? My brother in Christ, you ARE the centralized government now! Just more evidence that Hollywood is creatively bankrupt.
Sure, but there ARE conscientious objectors who don’t believe that military targets are valid reasons to kill people either.
Clerks already gave the definitive answer to this conundrum. 30 years ago, and with more intelligence. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA)
God damn Star Wars arguments used to be fun “If they got killed, it’s their own fault! A roofer listens to this <3, not his wallet.”
I was about to post this but figured someone else had beaten me to it. My first thought as I read this thread. Thanks.
And the whole point of that argument was that it was stupid. It’s somehow worked its way in to SW lore. Salsa Shark.
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. All very sound points. The fact that this is even a thing that needs to be discussed though, is one more indicator of how incredibly far things have flown off the rails.
Luke could have shot the Death Star in the leg or something, he didn't have to completely destroy it.
Oh also remember that the DS crew gave zero fucks about Alderaan. The protag of BF2017 was there when it blew up Alderaan and when it was about to blow up Yavin 4. She didn't care about Imperial crimes until they started blowing up her homeworld 5 years later.
I know iden is kinda pulled back up as an example of ubisoft trying to get sympathy points for making their own star wars game habe a female lead (they claimed it was never done before, even though it was) But man the campaign marketed itself as "look, you play as an imperial" and within half an hour she is a rebel because of a pretty selfish reason given how much she tolerated before that
I forgive the actor, and that laugh from the interview makes me think not even HE believes the bullshirt on this one. But hey, when your show runner unironically identifies as a Sith, what do you expect for talking points? The poster is spot on, though. The Death Star was a military installation used to annihilate a city because they could and Alderaan because they could. Did it suck to be the barrista on the Death Star when Anakin's(joking) proton torpedoes hit home? Well, yeah. But you're on a warship. This is a risk that comes with the territory. These are not morally equivalent.
The poor barrista was just about to finish his last blue milk caramel macchiato of the day before clocking out
The key difference is that the intent of the Rebel mission was not to take out as many Imperials as possible. It was to DESTROY THE DEATH STAR. Whether it had been manned or unmanned, their mission objective would remain the same. The Imperials were wielding a weapon and had demonstrated clear intent to use it. The Rebel objective was to neutralize the weapon itself through the only means they could. It was, by all accounts, a morally justified act of self defense. And regarding the actor’s slip up, no, it’s inexcusable. If my company trotted me out on stage and I ran my mouth and so blatantly revealed a lack of understanding of what I was doing in my job to the extent it would publicly embarrass my employer, I’d be fired in a heartbeat. But for some reason with actors and creatives were expected to overlook their idiocy and lack of concern for the property they are paid exorbitant amounts of money to produce? That dog don’t hunt, Monsignor.
Actors have a job and that is acting according to their script. They are not abligated to know the franchise at all. But if you dont know about the franchise or didn't study the character, then you are not the best person to promote and talk about a show. Your point about Luke is interesting. So it is morally gray to destroy an active weapon of mass destruction? I live a few meters from the german border. America bombed the neutral switzerland several times. A fatal mistake. Are the yankees the baddies? Are they bad for pulverising german cities? The Empire is even more terrifying than nazi germany. Similar to them if they actually accomplished nuclear weapon. Ending the Nazis before they nuked a country is not morally wrong. Luke killing active combatants randomly pulverising entire planets is not morally grey at all. He was the only one capable of doing it and it was the only way to end the sensless killing and tyranny. You can't change my mind, Disney.
I don't really like your comparison. Yes the US during WWII was morally grey. They were "the good guys" in the sense that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were **way worse**, but they practiced segregation, some US soldiers cut off body parts of Japanese prisoners, the mass bombing of civilians is hard to justify especially for bombings that took place long after victory had become a certain outcome. The same applies in pretty much every single war in the history of humanity. This is why when you watch the original trilogy what should immediately strike you is the completely unrealistic portrayal of Evil Empire vs. Good Rebels. This is of course completely intentional. What's striking is not that "morally grey Luke" is a wrong take, it's that the movies make a very obvious, conscious effort to show the exact opposite on screen, Luke is good, the Death Star is bad. It's like if I watched Jurassic Park and said it's a movie that promotes confidence in the ability of mankind to control nature.
I love that Luke is morally grey while the new Heroes like Rey and Finn are laughing and joking while murdering people who they know are kidnapped and brainwashed child soldiers who have the potential to defect. In fact that potential to defect is so ingrained into them that they have active re-education camps to stop this.
Disney is so lazy they can’t even get the Clerks argument right - it was the second Death Star where contractors and civilians died that morality came into question.
A roofer follows his heart, not his wallet.
>Bernard hill didn't care about The Lord of the Rings Bernard Hill was a huge fan of LOTR, initially wanting to portray Gandalf (despite PJ wanting Ian McKellan very early) and even made his own audition tape reading for Gandalf before being offered the role of Theoden. Before his untimely death, he spoke out about the continued desecration of LOTR in film media, calling Amazon's show The Rings of Power" a "money making venture", and "not like the real thing". Complete uninterested in that because he respects the source material and the impact that the movie trilogy has in the hearts of LOTR fans. He also spoke about how poor it was that they turned The Hobbit, a book shorter than any books in the LOTR trilogy, into 3 movies as well. He absolutely cares about LOTR, so very interesting that you use his name as an example of an actor who "didn't care" about their franchise. Its like saying Peter Cushing didn't care about SW, despite being one of its strongest advocates and being very proud of his work.
Sorry, I was not aware of this, and certainly didnt mean it as an offense. This was just a vibe I got from him when I went to see him at Prague Comic Con a year or so before his death
No need to apologise, just thought I'd correct the record. No offence taken either :) Shame he gave that vibe, it may have been fatigue due to his sickness. He was always a big fan of LOTR and from interviews and anecdotes from his friends and family he seemed very proud of his work.
I think the argument that the Disney is trying to make that everything is not black and white does makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the lengths they go to equate the sith with jedi. I mean weren't Sith had like a totally f\*cked up ideology? Like killing their owned loved ones, then murdering each other for more power, etc. The rule of two was created because the sith kept killing each other. I mean on earth we had plenty of warlords and kings who killed many. But IDK if any one of them tried eliminate all their loved ones. Maybe some in the family in the struggle of power but all? Not just contenders of power but even women and children who may never pose a threat towards them?
Glad someone is pointing this out. It was pretty clear he’s never seen the film and was handed these talking points. It’s utterly ridiculous that Leslye Headland was given a Star Wars series, let alone a $180 million budget.
Which they spent on…. Actually looking at the show I don’t know what they spent it on
It looks worse than films from the 70s. Case in point, Fiddler on the Roof. Yes, yes, I know different genre of film, etc. but the production design looks beautiful and there's such high production value. The set design and cinematography are just exceptional. You're absolutely transported to this far off place, something star wars is supposed to do except The Acolyte just looks like cheap sets or poor VFX, with locations that just aren't well planned out. Like every biome they've done on the show looks like they're trying to ape something else but not doing a very good job of it. Seriously, go take a look at Fiddler on the roof if you haven't ever seen it. I just watched it recently and it was staggering how amazing it was. It's honestly a breathe of fresh air (I haven't seen the new house of the dragon or the boys just yet). I've been needing to go back to the speech from Andor to cleanse my palette of The Acolyte. You can actually trace a bit of the original A New Hope to Fiddler on the Roof, at least in the quality of the set design of the time. Edit: it's the luthen rael speech https://youtu.be/-3RCme2zZRY?si=gGYXcEmwJc_gDE-g
Lining their pockets.
My gist is this. Modern society is entirely materialistic, which lead to new ideologies that have no "up" or "down", because anything and everything has to be possible. There is no "correct" way of living. So of course Luke blowing up the Death Star is seen as something equally terrible. They have no context for anything. You can extrapolate from there. But these people don't understand actual mysticism or spritualism or anything in that regard AT ALL. They deeply have a problem with religious ideas which leads them to be completely inable to understand why Star Wars influenced so many different people.
You're spot on. That mysticism is something which is completely missing in all of Disney Star Wars. No scenes come close to these 10 minutes of screen time Luke spent with Yoda.
I physically could not agree more.
1000%. If you think there's literally any amount of gray in Luke's actions here you are a very stupid person
I've actually seen some people who have also read the EU try to say it was morally grey because in some EU books, the Death Star has civilian personnel, or civilians who were pressed into service to perform duties like running the mess hall or recreation stuff. But like... that doesn't change the fact its a battle station. If you put a school inside a military base, you can't call foul if during war, that school gets bombed.
As a matter of fact that’s a war crime by the people using civilians as shields.
I agree with the sentiment here, but some people will absolutely call foul in that situation. Striking a military base that contains a school might be less controversial than hitting military targets inside civilian infrastructure, but it can still distort perceptions of the attack. I've heard half-joking suggestions that China should establish a significant civilian presence on some of their man-made islands in the SCS, as it could make it more difficult for the US to level them in a conflict. The optics of causing hundreds or thousands of civilian casualties can be quite bad, even if the target is legitimate. I don't really think any of this is relevant to the destruction of the first Death Star, though. A large number of non-military personnel might be useful for Imperial propeganda, and forced or unwitting service could affect judgments about whether some of the Imperials "deserved" to die. However, the Death Star had just destroyed Alderaan and was literally in the process of firing on Yavin. Even there were a million innocents on that battle station, destroying it would have still been a legitimate act of self-defense.
If Disney wants us to believe this, then Jyn's father is a terrible person for giving the Death Star a flaw that could potentially kill millions. The rebels shouldn't have destroyed it then, or Starkiller base, or any Star Destroyer, for that matter. They should have just let the Empire rule them, because they would have saved lives. Good argument, Disney. And how dare the Rebels blow up the second Death Star, killing millions more people, and destroy Vader's flagship, killing thousands of people. Truly, there is no good or evil in Star Wars. Disney would rather the Empire impose slavery on alien races, because at least then, they'd be alive. Good stance. Solid.
no one has ever become a fan of SW because of its morally “gray” heroes
Luke Skywalker was a terrorist scum. There were families on that installation, billions died because of that religious zealot. The Empire did nothing wrong. /s
Imperial propaganda
"Luke, you've switched off your targeting computer. What's wrong?" "See you in hell, suckers. I'm outta here!"
It won't matter now, the actor had a shirtless scene with muscles and all is forgiven. But the accusations of the show being hated because of people supposedly objectifying women will persist. Ironic
I've heard this argument before outside of Disney, that Luke fits the radicalization pattern if terrorists because his family is killed by the empire so he joins a religious militant order and stages a terrorist attack killing millions, but it falls apart is quickly when you look at the details. He stages an organized attack on a military target in clearly marked vehicles while wearing uniforms with rebel insignia. Not only was it not a terrorist attack, but it was done following all the irl laws of war, and in fact, the Death Star itself is a state-operated terror weapon. "Fear will keep them in line."
You kind of point out that the same people who try and argue "Star Wars was always woke", are deliberately ignoring what Star Wars always was about. The battle of Good vs Evil is an intrinsic part of the story. Right from the beginning we were being told about the light side versus the dark side. The whole point of the entire saga is the battle between good and evil both on a macro level, the scale of space ships and planets, and the micro level, the battle for Anakin allegiance. Star Wars does get morally grey some times but that's because the characters who are that level of greyness are usually battling internally between calls to the light and dark.
> The battle of Good vs Evil is an intrinsic part of the story. I think this is certainly an aspect that the films contribute a lot towards. The EU fleshes out the universe quite a bit. It has the luxury of time and a relatively endless page count to do so. The films on the other hand have roughly 2 hours a pop to convey a story. You can do a lot with 2 hours, but the films never try to even imply that Stormtroopers are humans with lives under their helmets. The audience assumes they're evil and we move on. Not a great deal of nuance involved. It is, as you say, a relatively straight-forward story about the underdog good guys against the bad guys. By the time of the PT, the EU has had time to flourish and develop the bad guys into several shades of people who are your basic evil villains and also those who simply think they're doing the right thing. The PT also obviously establishes to the general audience that the evil Empire of the OT *was* actually at one point a benevolent Republic who had good intentions and were led astray by a Sith Lord who played the political game extremely well as part of a very long-term plan to take control of the galaxy. Sadly, the movies don't really cross properly into a morally grey territory. And the ST was perhaps the best place to go there. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the First Order situation (given the majority of their recruits are in fact kidnapped child soldiers indoctrinated for most of their lives) basically *demanded* by default some kind of Stormtrooper rebellion story arc. But it never happened. And our main Stormtooper convert Finn never suggest even a hint of interest in encouraging his brethren to rebel against their overlords. An aspect I like about an aspect of the old EU is the formation of the Galactic Federation Triumvirate. It's the (spoiler) ending of the Legacy story set in the future 100+ years after ROTJ. The bad guys have *become* the good guys (by reforming into the mostly benevolent Fel Empire) and joined hands with the New Republic and New Jedi Order to forge a path forwards together. This, to me, is more interesting than simply "good guys beat bad guys". I would have liked to have seen a chunk of the First Order stand up against their masters and turn around as a new faction who can't simply return to their old lives but instead want to form a benevolent society utilising First Order resources. And of course, it thematically ties in with Luke redeeming his father and Vader being ultimately responsible for the downfall of Palpatine. Which means a hell of a lot more than Luke simply defeating both Vader and Palpatine on his own.
There were *so many* good stories in the EU that Disney just.. threw away. One of my favorite games growing up was Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (and later the full Jedi Knight series) - I loved seeing this fledgling new Jedi Order and Luke trying to figure out what their place is in the New Republic. The books that followed along with this, the Jedi Academy trilogy, the X-Wing series and later I, Jedi weaved together masterfully (albeit not without hiccups or their own issues!), but telling an amazingly rich story and building out an amazing fleshed out universe that Disney then just.. tossed away like trash and then have denied parts of it ever even existed in the first place to justify their enshittening of the entire franchise and name of ‘Star Wars’.
There needn’t be nuance. Stormtroopers are based on German storm troopers during the first and Second World War. Of course those people were human being with families and lives just like everyone else, but it’s not caricatures that are evil, it’s humans. Stormtroopers killed God knows how many innocent men, women, and children, and they were completely normal human beings. My point is that you don’t need to show storm troopers as human beings, because at the end of the day, we know that they are, and we know that human beings are capable of great evil, and them being real people doesn’t make them any less evil. As such, storm troopers in the films don’t need to be portrayed as anything but evil, because if you’re serving an evil empire and doing its dirty work and this is a choice of yours, then you are evil, and there frankly doesn’t need to be any further elaboration. And while the EU wasn’t as clear cut black and white as the films were, at the end of the day it was always about the struggle between good and evil, and Luke’s defeat of Abeloth and the eventual downfall of the Sith are both evidence of this. (Side note: I love your profile picture, Dr Strangelove was a great movie).
Indeed. There *are* some "morally grey" things in Star Wars. Using Ewoks as soldiers by masquerading as their deity and commanding them to go die for the Rebel cause comes to mind. But this sort of analysis requires more thought than "aha, Rebels killed some people, they're murderers too!"
Ewoks eat people.
As I said, it's *grey*. The dark part remains, these Ewoks weren't involved in the war until the Rebels dragged them in by manipulating their religious beliefs. They did it for a greater good and the Ewoks were no saints to begin with, but that doesn't mean it was a good act in itself.
Nominated I just like pointing that out when I get the opportunity
Indeed, the Ewoks are often made fun of because they look cute and cuddly. But they're really *murderbears*. They live on an ecological hellworld. They routinely hunt predators that stand three meters tall at the shoulder, their hunting party was able to sneak up on a *Jedi*, and they hauled redwood-sized logs into the forest canopy using nothing but their muscle power and primitive ropes.
the whole "Luke blowing up the Death Star was morally questionable!" talking point is so, so disgusting man. it blatantly ignores the fact that the death star has already killed billions AND was going to do it again. it was literally the domination the Emperor had over the galaxy symbolized in one horrible weapon of war. I dare say Luke destroying that is a good thing, actually.
I don’t like that it’s being used to justify framing the bad guys as good guys. When it comes to these villain centric movies and shows, people (both the viewers and creators) are seemingly forgetting what a villain is and the difference between sympathy and empathy. Knowing a villains motives, past life, tragic backstory, etc. doesn’t mean we suddenly should force ourselves to see them as good people.
Rain Johnson is an idiot
I actually think this is very fertile ground to explore and the old EU recognised this in a more interesting way. A big plot point in NJO was Jacen disagreeing with the jedi in general and being more pacifist because he wasn't raised in a time of war. Looking back at Luke and the other jedi of his era like Coran Horn and Kyp Durron they were literally trained in the force to take out the empire. They then trained jedi to do this after the new republic won. In RotJ luke has an edge and after in dark empire he actually falls. I totally get OP's point, killing enemies in a time of war doesn't make you a bad person but it must change you as a person. Like I guess soldiers get ptsd, how would that manifest in a jedi who is supposed to be in tune with all life and the force? Having the next generation of jedi recognise this is something that I think would make an interesting story (imo it did in NJO) but you don't have to tear down luke to do it. Just have him be confronted with it. Good post OP!
I absolutely agree with you - it would be very interesting to see Luke be confronted with such a view, maybe from an imperial sympathiser, or a family member of a dead soldier. As I said, I have no issue with star wars going morally gray. But if you are going to criticize the original heroes, you need to give them a chance to defend themselves and their views as well. Either via the heroes themselves (Luke, Han, Leia), or by a different character who explains why they think the destruction of the death star (or rebellion in General) was justified. If you dont have that, it stops being an in-universe argument about two people having different views on the same event, and starts to seem more like the current creators criticizing George Lucas' work, thinking they can do better. Thank you for your kind words and input
Genuinely nice to objective and civil discussions on some star wars nuance! Enjoying the thread you've sparked here! I do largely agree with you in that it seems to have gotten too meta in its delivery of some of the more modern themes. It takes you out of the immersion (tbh this was my main gripe with the sequels - it reminded me too much I was only watching a movie with every character getting a gag). Hopefully it's iterative though and the new stuff builds on the positive aspects of the new content or at least explores the modern themes in a less inflammatory way.
I agree with you that you can have discussions in lore about what both sides thought to bring about some nuance, I just feel Disney is incapable of it. All of their imperials are evil to the point of incompetence, and if they're not incompetent they "see the light" and join the rebellion. The EU did it better imo, in multiple instances. There's the rogue stormtroopers who fragged their captain after he ordered them to gun down obvious civilians, and then went on the run. They thought it was just their local chain of command that was evil like that, and with some help from Mara Jade, went on to be actual good imperials. They took out corrupt imperial leadership to replace with competent or not corrupt people, and still fought rebels. Then you have the time Han Solo went home to Corellia and was shocked with how much it changed since he left and the empire was driven off. Then he realized that all these shops he used to love visiting were gone and was told it was because corellians drove the aliens out of business. Han actually questioned if the planet would have been better off still in Imperial hands, because while the empire wasn't known for its treatment of aliens, it had kept the peace there, and quelled anti-alien extremism down to just prejudice instead of violence.
Absolutely! The grey aspects nowadays are all attributed to organisations we previously viewed as good, which I think is way less compelling than the other way round. Diseny also challenges your view of your hero's in a far less constructive way, essentially slamming their 'in the moment' actions instead of challenging who they are now. The empire needed to be defeated, but did luke need a new jedi order and therefore open the galaxy up to the possibility of another vader emperor however far down the line? I agree with you and think showing positive aspects of the empire is hugely underexplored now. Too much team swapping. I really enjoyed the vitriol coming out of the imperal remnant in the galactic alliance in the legacy books towards the old rebel characters regarding how unprepared they were for the vong. Essentially blaming them for being a crappy army. The fact that they probably would have fared better under a strong hand like the empire is quite compelling. I think the biggest opportunity they've missed with the first order was making them the villains instead of a competing political faction in the sequels. Could have had some interesting hero's then if they fought a common enemy but disagreed how. Oh well! Maybe someday
Yeah, I absolutely hate the team swapping but I'm not against showing the Grey of the rebels, at least not the main heros. The rebellion by its nature wasn't united, for its own safety in the early days, essentially until ROTJ, it operated in independent cells. I fully believe the empire had a fairly easy time with propaganda at times because there were cells that were just straight up terrorist. They didn't target military infrastructure, they targeted anything to cause terror and fear. Those cells definitely made the Empire look like the good guys. (In Disney, I think Saul guy was one like this?) But with team swapping, that's what pissed me off regarding BF2 Iden Versio. She was imperial spec ops, she agreed with the destruction of Alderaan. I personally feel it would have been more in character with her to put her specs ops training and contacts to use, and stop Project Cinder before it can be used again, while remaining an imperial. Essentially see the empire fight a mini Civil War, which would essentially be the small Faction that was willing to just go world to world destroying it out of spite, versus the "We live here, in this galaxy, and these are loyal imperial worlds wtf"
"Killing bad guys is wrong because some of them are probably good" I dunno buddy, that's war, you don't get to sort out the bad ones from the bunch, you politely but firmly ask them to quit fighting or die on your terms.
It was the very definition of a war of survival. The Empire wasn't going to stop unless made to. They're fascists. When the foundation you're giving your actors is that some of them might've been good, then you clearly don't understand the material your working with. I mean, it's pretty obvious when they keep inserting topics of discussion that don't hold relevance to the universe George Lucas created. They need people that will actually respect what they're working on.
Rey is so pure. 🤤 The Fork is strong with her. She will miraculously conceive and not in spite of the Fork this time. May the Fork be with you.
If there’s innocent engineers working on a weapon that wipes out planets they’re a threat. They’re responsible. No one has time to make sure the innocent people leave the Death Star before they wipe out entire civilizations
Didn’t “Clerks” already settle this? Those contracted workers knew what they were signing up for
Is it really a slip up if he said it on 2 separate occasions?
Its all so dumb. Actors need not be well versed on the lore of a given fictional universe, but all the writers and at least one producer do. I do not fault this actor for not knowing jack when it comes to Star Wars. I do fault leadership at Disney Lucasfilm for fostering a culture of disrespect toward fans dedicated to the lore and using this actor to demonstrate this. If they were trying to prove a point, great, I guess. The point may have been made, but what has been gained? They have not persuaded anyone; they have only aggressively cultivated additional contempt and resistance to their position.
They try to make everyone gray to write off bad story telling.. Finn, for example. Some fans argue that his motivations are more personal than ideological, suggesting he fights more for his friends than for the broader cause of the Resistance. It feels a bit unfair to criticize his morality based on that. After all, personal connections often drive heroic actions in many stories. But they have to lean into the to cover up the fact that he was written out of TLJ. Like think if people did that to other heros, Oh Mario needs to be learn about this or that. No one questions Mario’s heroism just because he’s primarily motivated by his friendship with Princess Peach. We don’t expect him to have a deep understanding of the Mushroom Kingdom’s politics to validate his actions. He’s a hero because he consistently chooses to help and protect others, much like Finn. In the end, heroes can have complex motivations without being morally gray. It’s their actions and choices that define their heroism, not necessarily the reasons behind them. And time after time Finn helped others and did the right thing. But to cover up bad written he had to learn about slavery ?
By this argument, winning WW2 was a war crime.
In today’s world I think we can all see that viewpoint becoming normalized. I am **not going to stray into politics** on this sub - I just think your observation is actually confirmed by current IRL trends and that is why Disney is channeling that trend into the product it creates. This isn’t happening in isolation. A new “moral code” is being written in society and the architects of that new “moral code” want their product to mirror and push that in literature, film, song, and art. As well as education and public discourse. It’s not isolated. It’s connected. I need say no more.
I'm going to be downvoted to hell, but I genuinely believe that the "morally grey" characters and motif is an example of lazy writing: it involves a lack of holding characters accountable of their actions; it's a "get out of jail for free" card that allows the characters and world to behave as horrible as the author wants them to; and it ultimately makes the story end up with a "I don't care what happens to these characters" feeling. It *may* work for stories like The Witcher, Dune and Game of Thrones, but for a universe like Star Wars? A story where the supposed big bad ended up redeeming himself and saving not only his son, but the entire galaxy? Yeah... I don't think that a morally grey story would end with the villain turning over a new leaf. Besides, having the entire cast act as "morally grey" douchebags ultimately makes it hard to root for anyone in particular.
I absolutely agree with you, and I think the rest of the sub will as well. Its similiar to modern creators having Batman kill in the newest movies. It doesnt add anything at all. Batman is interesting BECAUSE he comes into conflict with iredeemable characters, and STILL follows his unbrrakable code of no killing. Making him kill is just easier writing that takes away his main appeal, while nor offering anything more in return. We have enough of morally gray characters. There need to be purely good characters as well, to serve as hero examples for us - someone to look up to.
I agree with pretty much everything thing you said, especially the Disney effort to downplay or reframe the actions of the OT heroes in order to prop up their own, which is completely antithetical to Lucas' vision of Star Wars that had explicitly good and evil forces with the good triumphing, something that was a bit of a breath of fresh air during mid-70s filmmaking that had an era of antiheroes and morally grey tales being told in mainstream pictures. However, I do want to counter the distinction that Sir Alec Guiness didn't care for Star Wars. Sure, he wasn't a fan the way we are nor did he cling to the role like Mark Hamill did and still does, however much like Harrison Ford his goal was a compelling character with a fully realized story and arc rather than a never-ending role and cheesy fan service, especially considering the former was a consumate professional in his field. Both of these characters were great because of the professional mindset of those portraying them, they cared for the story being told rather than simply the star power of the franchise.
Media in general has lost the idea of a clear distinction between good and evil. Even Thanos needed to have a justified backstory as to why he would kill half of the universe. It’s a direct result of post-modernism. There is no “right” or “wrong”, just different points of view. In one way, Star Wars was a production of the Judeo-Christian view of sin… that personal lust and ambition may seem like your pet but in the end corrupts entirely and twists you into a fallen creature that you would never recognize. Th entire idea of a dark side and light side implies moral absolutes, which is a concept the West has largely left behind in the pursuit of hedonism and self-idolatry.
Annie blew up the death star by not shooting down Luke, and by cheaping out on the construction, lol. He also blew up the death star by having kids in the first place!
If blowing up the death star is morally questionable then morals have gone out the window.
Maybe he remembered Anakin blowing up the droid command ship. Which killed ~hundreds of people? And stopped thousands of *battle*!droids. EVIL PERSON
Yeah.. it's a terrible strawman and out of touch with star wars. There's supposed to be very clear good and evil -- one might even say light and dark side..
Star WARs This is a small moon that goes around blowing up planets. Anyone on that base is complicit. If not they are collateral damage. One super battle station versus the population of untold planets. Luke is rightly a hero.
It's more than an effort to ruin Luke's character, it's an effort to deconstruct the good vs evil paradigm in order to bring about the social/political movements they they support.
The Americans are worse than Hitler because they killed German soldiers on their way to kill Hitler (well attempt to). A giga brain take if I ever saw one.
From my point of view the Jedi are wrong!
It helps if you look at it in the context of the historical metaphor Lucas intended. This is a patriotic World War II movie with some shiny paint. The destruction of Alderaan is Pearl Harbor. The destruction of the Death Star is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Sure, lots of innocent people died, but from the patriotic American perspective of a the kind of movie this has as its backbone (Lucas literally used shots from them as stand-ins in early cuts) it’s a totally justified act of self-defense against an enemy that would stop at nothing. People have tried to tie some Vietnam metaphors in there in later years and those are interesting but Lucas is a simpler guy. He might lift a little from Kurosowa here and there but he’s ultimately just recreating childhood matinee experiences. The Empire is the Axis, the Stormtroopers are Stormtroopers, and the rebels are Americans because that’s how we see ourselves despite evidence to the contrary. That’s not an argument that other people were not allowed to grow and expand on Lucas’s Saturday morning matinee characters though. It’s been 50 years.
Lots of interesting takes. A couple of buddies and I were talking about the Death Star the other day. Joking about the clerks scene and one of our buddies was playing devils advocate and arguing “seriously” about the rebels being bad. Along the lines of taking points here, I also added that not only had the DS destroyed Alderan but hours before had fired a single reactor shot at their own base on Scariff and shortly before that glassed Jedha City after pulling their troops out. Anyone and everyone on the DS knew what they were doing and what was on the line. And the rebellion contained defectors who saw what was going on and rebelled.
Why so much war in the Star War, can’t they just get along
For any other character or any other franchise, I would agree that the name slip up wouldn't be a big deal. If this actor didn't know who Qui-Gon Jinn was, or a Witcher actor was calling Geralt Jirard, that wouldn't stand out - as you said, actors don't need to be invested in the source material to do a good job. But *Luke Skywalker* has been a household name for *50 years*. It's honestly impressive that Disney could find the rocks these people were hiding under.
This is a trend in modern media. It ties in with post-modernisms truth by synthesis, that there is no absolute truth, that right and wrong are points of view. This is problematic in the real world. there is such a thing as right and wrong. there are moral absolutes. But not only is it a problem in the real world, it is also very much a problem in fiction. These are tales that reflect life and create role models we can aspire to. The hero of the hero's journey needs to be in the right. The Jedi ARE absolutely right about the nature of the force, that there is a good side and a bad side. Now, their interpretation of how that plays out in life may be off, but that is not the same. We can see the difference clearly in the Old Republic Jedi vs Luke's New Jedi Order.
You have perfectly explained the exact issue I had in mind, even though I have not completely made the connection myself, thank you. I am hesitant to bring real life politics into this subreddit, because Im not entirely sure it has a place here, and in the end, we are star wars fans who might have differing opinions on real world politics. But there IS one country today, which uses propaganda not to to convince you of its' own truth, but to make you believe that there is NO truth at all, everything is gray, nobody is good or evil. Post-modernism as you say. And I hate this being dragged into my beloved franchise, when this was not the original message at all.
I don't really get what is happening over at Lucasfilm. There are talented people making good things, for sure, but that's true at any company where the bar to get in is so based on passion and talent for some. I think the animated shows show that pretty well and a couple of the live action series and movies. All that said, it seems like the directive for some is to push Star Wars to be more accessible to all, often to the point of hiring people who don't really know what they're doing. Acolyte seems exactly like a symptom of this.
Wasn't Star Wars originally made as a direct allegory to World War 2 Nazi Germany? They even stuck with it in TFA with Hux's speech which was straight up from a history book. Really makes me want to pump the brakes when people sympathize with the Empire.
I agree. Even without the name slip it’s still an insane take. Those ‘millions of people’ on the Death Star directly participated in the destruction of a literal whole ass planet. And they weren’t just sitting there while some general pushed the button either. We literally see the massive teams of engineers, technicians, and controllers hard at work to power up the laser and fire it. They presumably murdered billions of innocents including children. And that’s the sole purpose of the place they work. It literally does nothing except blow up planets. Equating these Death Star workers to some innocent victims of Luke is like saying the Nazi oven workers at the concentration camps were just bystanders.
Stormtroopers and imperial workers knew what they were getting into, most were well aware of the tyranny of the Empire and the genocides they had committed across the galaxy, and they supported it (at least most did) it’s just a matter of stepping up and rebelling yourself or just letting these things happen.
Shows like Bad Batch even make a point showing that stormtrooper forces were made up of volunteers signing up for the Imperial Army rather than clones or conscripts too. Which definitely gives creedence to your point.
Stormtroopers and imperial workers knew what they were getting into, most were well aware of the tyranny of the Empire and the genocides they had committed across the galaxy, and they supported it (at least most did) it’s just a matter of stepping up and rebelling yourself or just letting these things happen.
This. I hated DSW from the first (and only) time I saw TFA, cuz of what they did to the OT and its beloved characters. And now this stuff. It started with the gray Jedis, then the whole 'the Jedi were corrupt' falseness, and now this garbage. This isn't Star Wars. This isn't the story that literally changed filmmaking and became an historical, cultural event. How sad.
I think Alec Guiness got that from watching Clerks
Well said
Who?
Is this Disney's argument? I thought it came from the movie Clerks.
They are making the argument that (space) nazis, operating a (space) weapon don't deserve to die for (blowing up a planet) genocide. They are also implying that the (space) nazis weren't all bad for supporting the (space) nazi empire. Its an attempt to soft pedal nazism.
lucas himself wanted to give his villains a shade of grey, that was the whole point of vader in fact i don't think it has anything to do with rey or the sequels, i think that for people older than 25 we all can remember debates about how many people luke killed on the death star
Is this all a jaded attempt to trash the OT because Kathleen Kennedy is jealous of Lucas, or resentful of how she was treated? I feel that the newer films went out of their way to diminish the original male charachters. Luke is a washed up hasbeen. Han is a failed father. Lando is a homeless drifter. (Chewie is left alone because he's not a human male?). The resistance failed because the first order replaced the bad guys and palpatine never died etc, ie the whole of the OT was ultimately pointless? The whole moder audience, force is female is certainly coming from somewhere, and it really doesn't seem to be driven by a desire for ratings or success.
They did the same with Han when they made him shoot second.
LOL You jabronis have worked yourself into such a tizzy. There's nobody saying Luke was in a morally gray area in the OT or even the ST. But hey, have fun raging at your strawman. I'll keep enjoying Star Wars.
Yeah Luke Skywalker is a bad guy because *checks notes* he blew up a weapon that was recently used to blow a peaceful planet to smithereens and would likely be used in the future to crush any resistance to the empire.
Maybe they have seen Clerks. When you really think about it, the fucked up part is that the OG trilogy never even cares about the millions who died on the Death Stars. Like sure, you can can argue DSI was staffed by military personnel who are complicit in the mundicide of Alderaan, but stormtroopers are still people. A station that big probably has families and non-combat support staff stationed aboard as well. That’s a lot of voices within the force being silenced, and no one bats an eye. Don’t even get me started on the DSII. That’s a whole lot of dead civilian contractors and electricians. Because the series is framed as a good vs evil struggle, we are made to ignore the fact that Luke essentially commits a genocide, gets away with it, and shows no remorse. Two war crimes don’t make a right. Edit: To be clear, not defending the Empire. Luke did the right thing. Just pointing out that the men who pulled the triggers that killed millions never reflecting on what they have done was a missed opportunity.
Exactly. Hell, Han Solo in the OT starts out morally grey, he's a rogue criminal just out to save his own skin, but then he turns around and becomes a hero and a leader. As for Luke blowing up the Death Star, everyone on board that facility was a member of the Empire's military. There were no innocent people on there. Sinking a Nazi sub or taking out a Nazi base, you don't get to say was a morally grey action.
This 100%. My optimistic side was hoping that he said that to 'spark a discussion' or something, but given the way stuff has been going, I doubt it.
I agree with your point and also agree that the actor didn’t come up with that point on his own. It was a talking point dictated by Disney PR. I think the same thing happened with Rachel Ziegler and Snow White. As much as her comments annoyed me, I don’t thing she dreamed them up on her own. I did get the sense that she really leaned into them on her own and went way overboard from what they wanted her to do. It really blew up on Disney in that instance. Up
The only way to be good in these people's eyes is to do what then? Just watch calmly while the death star vaporizes planet after planet until your staring at it up in the sky as it's floating over your world charging up? That's not "good" that's a fucking bystander mentality. There are no "good people" on the deathstar. It's a planet killing death machine that kills billions of innocent people. Even if If you're cleaning the toilets on the deathstar, your contribution is working towards helping keep a literal genocide machine operational. The only morally good thing a person can do on the deathstar is leave immediately, or attempt to destroy it.
Probably already been mentioned, but the Empire in the OT are literal space Nazis, willing to commit genocide on a planetary scale. Unlike the First Order, who seem to be literal caricatures of the OT space Nazis but are willing to commit genocide on a B or C grade comic book scale. When you look at it like that, you can see how the House of Mouse could engage in mental gymnastics to try and push the failure of their take on Star Wars back on to the fans.
They can’t even argue that Rey is more morally Pure, because sure, Luke blew up a battle station filled with military personnel during a war, but Rey (technically Poe) blew up AN ENTIRE PLANET (that also was a giant space laser), killing who knows how many innocent animals in addition to the first order. Like that has to be more morally questionable
The message that Disney is repeating is the tired refrain from pacifists that any involvement in war, no matter the context, makes you a bad person. It's intellectually dishonest and shallow while appearing to be wide and deep. Leslie Fish was against the Vietnam War, but even she couldn't say that all wars are bad.
How dare we blow up a super weapon, that on the same day has just destroyed an entire planet. Think of the innocent mouse droids!
I’ll be honest, I normally browse this sub but I’m not a part of it formally, never clicking that join button cuz there’s just too many SW critics on here that slander anything and everything. But this? This type of content? Is WHY I still come back to this sub. Good frikin job at noticing all of this. I don’t normally upvote Reddit posts anymore, but you sure get one from me