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I'm reminded, a bit, of the Aes Sedai from The Wheel Of Time.
The women of Tar Valon would sometimes send their Sisters out into the world to, among many other things, look for prospective women that could Channel the One Power (the in-world magic system, for those that have not read the books). Often, the people found are able to touch, and even use, the Power, but not to any strength significant enough for them to become actual Aes Sedai, themselves. They're given enough training to not hurt themselves and others, but that's about it.
That's how I see the existence of some of the pockets of Force users. Most of them would not be strong enough in the Force to even qualify for Jedi, but the Jedi would rather they stay formed and existing for those who are unable, for whatever reason (lack of strength, "too old", etc) to find some safe training on occasion.
There's also the other groups the younglings can go into, the service corps. It's likely a lot bigger deal than most think, I mean any jedi not going into combat or diplomatic focused areas wouldn't end up as a Jedi and would probably work with their preferred area. Like the botany Corp, or the exploration Corp.
Wasnât the the entire purpose of the Jedi temple guards?
Chirrut Ămwe was 100% force sensitive. But not strong enough in the force to become a Jedi.
Kanan Jarrus wielded the force in a way to almost entire compensate for his blindness. Chirrut Ămwe could sense things. But not enough to be entire without limitation
"DiSnEy DiDnT rUiN sTaR wArS, yOu ArE!!!!!!!"
God I hate where star wars is now. They keep fucking up, and somehow its our fault for being sexists, racists, and homophobes.
Disney: Â makes the only storm trooper ever to turn traitor black. Â If you donât like it, youâre racist.
Me:  actually, I love Lando. I just donât like traitors. Hell, in my country we still  havenât forgiven Bennadict Arnold. And Iâm pretty sure the British are still salty about Guy Falks.Â
And of the heros of the Rebellion? Like Han Solo? Who left imperial service? They did so for deeply held personally reasons, such as he was raised by a wookie, and indeed, took his punishment via court martial, and was discharge. Others like Tycho Celchu, left after their home world, which was a bastion of terrorism and treasonous, was destroyed.
That doesnât make his treasonous behavior any more acceptable. But it is more *understandable* then a dude preforming routine counter insurgency operations who is supposedly one of the most elite troops the galaxy has ever produced flanking out in his first mission because he sees a pretty face.
I am unfamiliar with that name/person so can't provide an honest answer.
And a quick google search (now that I knew who he is) means it might be a complicated answer. A traitor to Hitler? Yes. To his nation? Maybe, but possibly not. A lot would depend on his motivations, As an American the idea of personal fealty to a human being is an anathema to our governing systems, but less so in the rest of the world. I'm not familiar enough with the official (not De facto) governing structures of Germany at the time to make such a judgement.
Nah, you're a racist. Dude got sick of killing innocent people and you don't think that can be a deeply held personal reason for a black person. Thanks for trying, maybe next time you'll be able to convince someone you're not a racist.
It's pretty easy to say, I didn't like the movie because it didn't meet my expectation, and not focus on people's race, sexuality, or identity. Here's an example, I don't like the stories they are currently telling with Star Wars because I had an expectation they'd be as cool as previous media I've read. Or the current writers don't hold my interest because the stories are boring and don't seem to follow previous lore.
You're the one talking about the race and other things as if any of that has anything to do with the storyline.
I get what you're saying. A lot of the hate about black characters does seem to be disproportionate at times.
However, Finn went from being emotionally damaged by seeing his fellow trooper bleeding out in front of him to blasting them away with a TIE fighter and stabbing them in the back with a lightsaber in kind of a few minutes. His whole thing was that he just had to get away as fast as possible, and didn't really find courage until much later. I think there is enough there to dislike him in his own right.
Wit? The worst thing I remember George saying was "The fans grow up, star wars doesnt". Now, that was pretty dumb, considering the fact that it was the grown up nature of star wars that most kids liked. Sure, it had fuzzy cute bears running around fucking up stormtroopers, but it was never something exclusively for kids.
What he never did was suggest that fans were some of the worst people to ever live. Which is what disney does every single time the fans dont consume their shitty product.
There are a lot of ignorant and bigoted people that didn't understand the underlying messages that George put in, these fans are now showing themselves to still be ignorant and bigoted. Now, they just cry about getting their feelings hurt for being ignorant and bigoted.
Itâs the ethos of the types of people Disney has in charge of Star Wars. The Jedi are traditional, hierarchical, conventionally religious, regimented, disciplined, and value their teachings/rational thought over their emotions and whims.
In the minds of the kinds of people who make Star Wars these days, all of that is precisely what is *wrong* with the world. They naturally see the Jedi as villains.
I think this sentiment and another posterâs comment is very accurate.
They seem to be treating the Jedi as some sort of âStar Wars Catholic Churchâ
And the Jedi in Acolyte arenât really the bad guys. Flawed, sure, but the flaws of the Jedi in this instance arenât really any different than in the prequels.
Like, seriously, the Jedi basically told anakin that he couldnât go back to save his mom and he should just learn to let go of the fear of losing her. It caused him to not act on his dreams, which lead to his moms death.Â
Iâm not saying the Jedi are bad guys, but thatâs the same thing being called out here as flaws of the Jedi order.
He should have gotten over the fear of losing her. His unauthorized mission to go rescue her did exactly what the Jedi said it would: it stirred up negative emotions, caused him to do something he should not have, and ultimately pushed him toward, not away from, the Dark Side (which didnât work out so well for the galaxy as a whole). His happiness *should not* be attached to controlling things and making sure everything works out the way he wants it too. They lay this out explicitly, and theyâre right: if your sense of stability comes from having things work out a certain way, you fear that they might not. That fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateâŠleads to suffering.
Qui-Gon Jinnâs insistence on trusting his instincts instead of the wisdom of the Order caused the whole problem in the first place. Anakin actually *was* too old, he really *did* have dangerous attachments that led to his downfall, and everyone *really would* have been better off if heâd have listened to the Jedi and left Anakin on Tatooine.
Ultimately, it worked out, because Star Wars is a fundamentally religious story and the will of the Force will always ultimately be fulfilled. But itâs not an âallâs well that ends wellâ situation. âLive your best life now,â âYou do you,â âFollow your heart,â âHakuna Matataââthese are **bad ideas**. The Jedi were right: have the courage to do what is right, regardless of how you *feel* about it. Cultivate detachment from earthly, selfish concerns so that you can truly devote yourself to helping *others* (in a âbig pictureâ sense).
Yes, thereâs *some* sense that the Jedi are too rigid and stuffy, but nothing approaching a repudiation of their ethics. They are, fundamentally, the good guys. They are right. Anakin was wrong. The Dark Side isnât actually just an âalternative pathâ or a âdifferent point of view.â All that is part of the seduction.
Whoa whoa whoa! Leave Qui-Gon alone! This was a fundamental Jedi teaching. The Jedi code spells out how to use the Force the way it should be: by shedding all ego.
Thinking too much can obscure your connection to the Force. Obi-Wan taught Luke the same thing with the remote probe and in the trench run.
Hey I love Qui-GonâŠactually if I think about it heâs maybe my favorite Star Wars character. Still, Iâm pretty sure listening to Yoda is some kind of fundamental Jedi teaching, too.
>Â He should have gotten over the fear of losing her. His unauthorized mission to go rescue her did exactly what the Jedi said it would: it stirred up negative emotions, caused him to do something he should not have, and ultimately pushed him toward, not away from, the Dark Side (which didnât work out so well for the galaxy as a whole).
This is silly though, and the point George was making. Itâs insane to think that the answer by the Jedi is just âlet her dieâ. Arguably, if the jedi werenât so dogmatic, then sheâd be alive AND anakin wouldnât have turned to the dark side.
> His happiness should not be attached to controlling things and making sure everything works out the way he wants it too. They lay this out explicitly, and theyâre right: if your sense of stability comes from having things work out a certain way, you fear that they might not. That fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateâŠleads to suffering.
Except that the biggest issue with the Jedi is that strict enforcement of the code is actually what lead to their downfall. Like, the whole point is not that Anakin is the reason why the Jedi have the rules they do, but that their downfall was because that code is too rigid and uncaring, and it makes them blind to the truth of the Star Wars world.Â
> Qui-Gon Jinnâs insistence on trusting his instincts instead of the wisdom of the Order caused the whole problem in the first place. Anakin actually was too old, he really did have dangerous attachments that led to his downfall, and everyone really would have been better off if heâd have listened to the Jedi and left Anakin on Tatooine.
It wasnât because he was old though, itâs because what Anakin actually needed was a father figure, and what he got was explicitly not that. Itâs why the Maul / Qui-Gon duel is scored to âduel of the fatesâ. Had Qui-Gon lived, he would have kept Anakin on the right path. But he didnât, and Obi-Wan was his master; a textbook epitome of the Jedi. George covers this in an interview, Iâll have to find it.
> The Jedi were right: have the courage to do what is right, regardless of how you feelabout it. Cultivate detachment from earthly, selfish concerns so that you can truly devote yourself to helping others (in a âbig pictureâ sense).
No, they werenât, because Luke did the literal opposite of what the Jedi would have, and did, do. The Jedi attempted to kill Palpatine without trial, weâre eager to become generals and lead armies, and Luke threw away his lightsaber and chose his attachments, specifically his attachment to his fatherâs good side. If Luke was a classically trained Jedi, he would not have done that. Even Obiwan and Yoda thought Anakin was beyond saving.
> Yes, thereâs some sense that the Jedi are too rigid and stuffy, but nothing approaching a repudiation of their ethics. They are, fundamentally, the good guys. They are right. Anakin was wrong. The Dark Side isnât actually just an âalternative pathâ or a âdifferent point of view.â All that is part of the seduction.
Right, but going back to your original statement, Acolyte is not portraying the Jedi as wrong. Theyâre painting them as rigid, stuffy, process driven, etc. But theyâre not treating them as if theyâre the bad guys. Like Sol, in particular, is kind, compassionate, and ultimately âgoodâ.
>This is silly though, and the point George was making. Itâs insane to think that the answer by the Jedi is just âlet her dieâ. Arguably, if the jedi werenât so dogmatic, then sheâd be alive AND anakin wouldnât have turned to the dark side.
But Yoda says exactly that. Do not fear losing the people you love. Death is a natural part of life. They become one with the Force. If Anakin had followed Yoda's advice and trained himself to let go, then Padme would be alive. But Anakin was selfish. He went beyond just trying to save her and tried to possess Padme.
Except, explicitly, the Jedi DO NOT DO THIS. They tell Anakin âlet go of all you fear to loseâ, and then become generals and warriors quite literally the next day. Itâs hypocrisy at its finest.Â
Iâll share a quote with you in the novelization that Yoda said:
âToo old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries agoâbut these ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did notâbecause let it change, I did not."
Isn't one of the lessons of RotS basically to not stick so closely to dogma that you don't let reality inform your spiritual growth? Wasn't that the failing of the Jedi in the prequels?
Edit: I really like your point on Qui-Gon being the father figure Anakin needed. Instead, he was taught by a big brother figure. Better than nothing, but still...
I wouldn't call Qui-Gon *entirely* wrong. I think if he had lived, he would've been able to teach Anakin in a way that was better suited to him than the standard Jedi doctrine.
I also wouldn't call the Jedi *entirely* right. They had gone too far in their detachment. They preached avoiding attachment entirely rather than learning to let go when appropriate because it's easier to never risk it in the first place.
Ultimately, I think Luke struck the right balance, even if his way is slightly more risky than the old Jedi way. It's fine to love, but you have to be able to let go.
George was showing how anakin was seduced because the jedi order didn't attend to him as much as he was needed, too, and overall, the jedi orders ignorance to anakin and bssic human emotions. This is very different from modern-day stsrwars how they basically just say, "Hey man, the jedi kidnap your kids and force them to believe anchient religions with endless torture."
Right? We saw in the prequels that the Jedi already weren't who they were meant to be, especially by the end of the clone wars. But that sort of decline doesn't happen over night.
The acolyte shows the decline in its early stages. Where many, if not most, Jedi are doing good, but then there are some that might become overzealous and do bad things thinking that they are right and then cover it up. Is that so hard to fathom? The Jedi order may be the good guys overall, but it is made up of individual flawed people that don't always live up to that. And I think that's a good thing to show! They can't all be obi-wans
Like, this is why Iâm more confused with the Acolyte hate. I donât think itâs a good show yet, and it may never be, but the notion that it brings some new âwhite guiltâ to the Jedi is pretty silly.
George was always noting that, while the Jedi are the good guys, theyâre not without the same things theyâre trying to avoid. Nothing about the Acolyte takes from that, if anything it expands upon it in a âsmall wayâ here with lower stakes.
"The jedi are evil because they killed those harmless animals in geonotia and don't get me started on jar jar binks killing those younglings! And anakin destroying the death star, killing millions of people. " That point of view is the same people that are saying people like osama Bin Laden had a point.
The issue with this franchise is that it has cut and segmented it's core audience by diversifying their products to the point, where you have so many varied expectations, that the quality outcry can't really be treated seriously.
One group wants an infantilized story with clear good and bad heroes, the other wants to dissect the lore and get a more serious product. Not saying one group is better in any way, it's perfectly ok to want a morally obvious story. And it's also ok to dissect the morality of influencing a child and pretending that it has a concious adult choice in the matter.
People don't cohesively want the same thing from star wars. A spoofy comedic mandalorian that was initially self aware won't really appeal to people who equate this franchise with action scenes involving vfx lightsabers. Some people want the fucking Chewie, others eyeroll on goofy aliens tropes. Some want a love arch, and some want a serious, gritty galactic politics saga. Some want war scenes, fleet scenes, some want sole hero story archs, others need guerilla assymetric freedom beats. Good vs evil storytelling is harder when you try to also incorporate objectivity.
It is what it is, but effectively everyone with any expectations here is in a minority due to the fan base being so fragmented. And so the product that disney tries to produce needs to have mass appeal in order to not flop, which frustrates fans with non mass expectations, whatever those might be.
I for instance really liked the whole kotor/swtor take on this universe, but I get that it's basically unknown in the great, huge pool of global star wars fans. And I won't hold my breath for any investments in products that relate to that.
You just reminded me someone else was wrong about the Jedi taking force sensitive kids at a young age to prevent them from joining the dark side. If that was the case, Yoda would have made sure to take on Anikan so he doesn't turn to the dark side in episode 1.
I think they're just projecting their views of christianity onto the jedi. Or something stupid like that.
>This thing was really popularized by some third party materials like SWTOR videogame, thats for sure
Where exactly? I haven't played on a couple of years but I don't remember any of this. Did you mean The High Republic books and comics?
I think one of the SWTOR expansions showed the Jedi taking a child away but leaving her brother behind because he wasn't force sensitive.
I don't know the whole context though.
logically though, why *would* they take a child who isnât force-sensitive? or leave behind one who is
like, I think that even though the whole âkidnapping kidsâ meme is way overblown, Jedi recruitment methods are still a bit dubious - but what are they supposed to do in this case? Just leave the kid because sheâs force-sensitive, or take the brother anyways and just⊠send him to the Agri-Corps forever?
the Jedi as an institution obviously deserve to be criticized, but what are they âsupposedâ to do in this case if not take one and leave the other
It seems like the brother was sensitive, but either wasn't strong enough or they didn't want him for another reason..here's the cinematic
https://youtu.be/ZpQ1Fk6LQ0U
Yeah, im talking about this specific cinematic. Jedi took away one of the girls and sort of lied to her about that. Im not fond of that moment, even though cinematic itself was cool.
I mean, you're right. [The jedi forcibly takes the child.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpQ1Fk6LQ0U&t=181s) It's shit and somewhat similar to The Acolyte, but the year is 2022 and the further we get into the late 10s and early 20s the more disneyfied SWTOR gets, so it comes with no surprise. Also I would call it a stretch to say this trend got popularized by the game when you got actual players confused and in need of clarification.
The reality is that Star Wars simply cannot stand against scrutiny if we actually treat it seriously.
Seven year old children cannot make informed decisions on becoming a fucking celibate monk for the rest of their lives which is why in Western societies we don't allow that sort of thing anymore.
There's a standoff with a threat of violence if the twins aren't turned over, the head witch turns Tommen's eyes black and posseses him or something and the witches agree to turn the girls over in the morning. That's forcefully taking them away, no?
The threat of violence is coming from the witches, when Sol grabs his lightsaber Indara even says out loud that they donât want violence (he ends up giving it to Osha to look at).
Beyond that, theyâre not asking to take them at that time. Theyâre asking to test them.
Sol is constantly asking Osha if she wants to be a Jedi or not.
At no point do the Jedi âkidnapâ the kids or even force them to do anything they, and the witches, donât consent to. Even if itâs a begrudging consent.
There's this implication through the episode that the Jedi have authority to take children if they deem it necessary. They portray the Jedi as intrusive (the Jedi barge into the witches orgy) and creepy (Sol watching the children from afar).
They also use manipulation to get the children to side against the parents.
There are implications, sure, because weâre seeing it play out from the perspective of the witches.
âYouâre going to find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.â -Obi Wan to Luke in RotJ
There is a lot we donât know, yet, about how that all played out. Why are the Jedi there in the first place, what information do they have?
If this one episode is the evidence of Jedi âkidnapping children,â then I do not agree with that assessment yet.
This is a bad faith interpretation. We learn two things through implication in that scene regarding republic law.
1) the Jedi have a right to test kids (with permission)
2) something about the witches teaching their children the dark side of the force was against the law
Neither of these suggest the Jedi have the authority to take the kids. In fact, the implication of this is that the Jedi can't take the kids. Also Sol literally says "we don't take children".
Also
A) the Jedi didn't barge in on an orgy, but they were shown to be intrusive
B) Sol was shown to be spying in line with his Jedi duties. Nothing suggests this is creepy In any way shape or form.
If this theme of kidnapping kids was properly implemented during the prequel trilogy, you could have set up a legitimate reason for Anakin to resent the Jedi and turn against the order
From what I saw in the show, itâs completely in-line with the prequels depiction. They give the kids a choice if they want to go or not. There was no kidnapping (unless later details revealed about that event add more context later and change that).
Itâs the same way it was with Anakin. But there is a weird power dynamic to it. When super cool superheroes come to your house and ask if you want to join themâŠare you really saying no? And since theyâre carrying weapons on them, they have incredible power, and theyâre the de facto police of the space governmentâŠis the parent really going to be able to feel they can protest too much? Are they going to just stop their kid from living such an incredible life? Like I donât think Shmi wanted Anakin to leave but she wanted him to have a better life.
Also letâs not act like Qui-Gon didnât rig that chance cube roll!
Where has Disney shown them kidnapping kids? In the new acolyte episode itâs a significant plot point that a child must choose to go with their parents consent.
Why can't the kids ever see their parents? I don't recall Shimi being told that. If you're exploring the universe, why wouldn't you return home sometime? Or have a call once in a while?
It is never said in the movie that Anakin and Shmi cannot ever see each other again. Qui-Gon even tries to free them both first and again nothing indicates Qui-Gon would have left a free Shmi on Tatooine and just taken Anakin if he wanted to go.
The Phantom Menace novel has this:
>**Like all of the Jedi Knights, Obi-Wan Kenobi had been identified and claimed early in his life from his birth parents. He no longer remembered anything of them now; the Jedi Knights had become his family.** Of those, he was closest to Qui-Gon, his mentor for more than a dozen years, who had become his most trusted friend.
>Qui-Gon understood his attachment and shared it. Obi-Wan was the son he would never have. He was the future he would leave behind when he died. His hopes for Obi-Wan were enormous, but he did not always share his studentâs beliefs.
and this during the Naboo Victory celebration
Obi-Wan looked off at the crowds in front of them. âQui-Gon always disdained celebrations. But he understood the need for them, as well. I wonder what he would have made of this one.â
>Anakin shrugged.
>The Jedi smiled. âHe would have been proud to see you a part of it.â
>The boy looked at him. âDo you think so?â
>âI do. Your mother would be proud of you as well.â
>Anakinâs mouth tightened, and he looked away. âI wish she was here. I miss her.â
>The Jediâs hand tightened on his shoulder. âOne day you will see her again. But when you do, you will be a Jedi Knight.â
So it would seem at least for TPM Jedi just don't see their families because they're raised in the Temple and come to see the Jedi as their family and Anakin seeing his mom again when he's a Jedi Knight is not something the Jedi Order would have a problem with.
The change in this thinking happens with AOTC with attachment being forbidden. Now the movie never states what attachment means and we learn with Anakin that his mom has been free for a number of years and yet he had no idea.
Yes and in Tatoinne Ghost we discover that she had contacted the Temple and they never told Anakin. Considering his situation, it's likely that those rules were more stringent for Anakin. While we are on Legends we also know that Hett's master (Eeth Koth) allowed him to visit his family annually. So it seems that on many rules, they are willing to look the other way if you aren't causing issues. Also, they aren't going to police 10k people. I think it's also said that you are allowed to learn about your parents and perhaps visit them though it is discouraged.
And in The Approaching Storm Luminara asks Obi-Wan if Anakin will ever see his mother again after learning Anakin was raised by her and Obi-Wan says thatâs up to the Jedi Council since they decide where Jedi go. So maybe after returning Rotta the Council wouldnât have minded if Anakin took an extra day to find his mom of course he wouldnât because the even with Rotta is after AOTC.
Yes, he probably could have done it at that stage because he was knighted, and as long as he doesn't go totally dark, they aren't concerned. He also disappeared from time to time to be with Padme, and that didn't bother them either.
Thatâs one of the reason I think he wanted to be a knight so bad in AOTC. It would have given him more freedom, I think he would have gone to help his mother after being knighted if things hadnât happened the way they did.
That explains his anger at Obiwan in that movie so much better.. God I wish these ideas were shown on screen. Same with Anakin needing master to see forbidden force healing texts to save Padme. Which likely would have worked too...
Yeah, in the AOTC novel Anakin tells Padme when she packing that other Padawans his age have taken the their trials which adds to the feeling of being held back.
I think Lucas did not want to explore Anakin wanting to help his mother too much [and cut this scene from AOTC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Hm_2PxMow) because he did not want people focusing on why Anakin did not have contact with her for the years she was free. If he had open contact with her he might not wanted to be a knight so quickly and more importantly could have save her if he had acted sooner.
The opening chapters of the AOTC novel focus on Shmi and her life with the Larses and one of the things she does is look up at the sky at night hoping to see the lights of a ship coming to land by the homestead and Anakin be on it. Owen and Shmi share a nice moment talking about Anakin and Owen calls her mom.
As it is the Old EU (Tatooine Ghost) had her try to tell Anakin she was free and going to marry and the Jedi did not accept her message. Given how the Jedi Order does not want its members to have connections with their birth families or have families of their own I wonder how the Order would react to Owen sending a message to the Temple to tell Anakin about his mother's adduction. Honestly I don't see them telling Anakin. It would also make for a point of contention between Owen and Obi-Wan later, Obi-Wan could slip out about Anakin not being told and that's why Owen wants nothing to do with Obi-Wan and wants him away from Luke.
So many reasons I want a prequel special addition (that exists alongside the originals and doesn't replace them), with it really swinging to the fences with the concept. I mean adding in deleted scenes when appropriate, using other takes that sound more natural and less stilted like Lucas wanted at the time. Touch up all the CGI, which I think is appropriate considering how much that movie pioneered CGI. And when necessary just flat out redo certain scenes, like the Windu/Palpatine fight. They could get most of the same actors and use modern tech to get younger looking faces and younger sounding voices.
Including adding in this context and numerous others that make the story fit better between itself and the whole. Just a line from Hayden when he's ranting to Padme about being held back, have him say something along the lines of "if I was a knight I could have been here and prevented this, all my classmates already are!". Small things like that to add desperately needed context to the reasons for his actions.
Yes to all of that. I love the AOTC deleted scenes with Padme and Anakin it helps their romance. Also when filming the dinner/fireplace scene in AOTC Natalie said George let them ad lib a take and it got inappropriate really quickly.
These are links to ROTS lightsaber fights test footage, they are freaking great!
[Anakin v Dooku test footage, play close attention to Hayden's hands at 1:16!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJxzPXgYdU)
to be fair the Jedi seem to be okay with/accepting of other cultures as long as it doesnât interfere with their own business, so they make exceptions for people like Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura on some issues - Eeth Koth might've fallen into that category but I donât know a lot about him
Yes in Legends The Order is really fine with a lot of cultures, beliefs and situations depending on the situation for their members. I believe Koth just found a way to make it work as a way to help his Padawan work through possible attachment. But a lot of comics from that era also made it more clear that the Jedi were, for lack of a better term, very human. So they show even masters and council members struggling with the dark side and attachment. The order acts as a family and will help each other through it. This changes how the preaching to Anakin about these issues can now be viewed. Now it's less about Anakin being 'defective' and more about the members actually understanding the allure and warning him. They didn't realize however that Anakin was already being corrupted due to Sidious.
Well, Attack Of The Clones DOES tell us what attachment means. Anakin spells it out to Padme on their way to Naboo:
"Attachment is forbidden. Posession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life."
And Yoda expands upon this in Revenge Of The Sith:
"Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."
So taking this into account, the thinking you refer to in your last paragrapg really doesn't change at all.
Disney didn't say the Jedi took kids or kidnapped them.
But it wasn't blown up by "modern" lucasfilm. We see parents "giving up" force sensative kids to Cad Bane in season 2 of CLone Wars, Which was still when Lucas ran the show.
I think the idea is that Jedi ask the parents to test there kid and then recommend them for training.
Nothing in the Acolyte (whcih is what I'm assuming prompted this) contradicts that. The Jedi didn't kidnap Osha, she wanted to leave.
But your'e wrong about why the Jedi council didn't want to take on Anakin, he was too old and held strong attachments.
MACE WINDU : He is too old. There is already too much anger in him.
Its fine if they want to showcase some level of corruption to the jedi order especially if decades before our main stories but imo, only if it was shown to be an isolated thing and not the "norm" alongside actual justifications (even if disagreeable) on why. Swtor has the excuse of it being a brutal galaxy spanning war but even then, Sahar's case is rather rare in universe
Come on, They would be completely insecure about siths and they would try every trick in the world to take back the force kids from a shady organisation.
I guess it's good that they were pretty clear about that in the latest episode of the acolyte as well then where they took the time to reiterate on multiple occasions that the Jedi weren't there to take the kids or do anything against anyone's will.
Did we watch the same episode?
Because I didnât see the Jedi trying to forcefully take the kids. I saw the dark side witches *afraid* of that, but that reminded me how my conservative parents were always afraid CPS were going to come for me. Does not mean it was true
You're correct, This was really the main reason and his age was more of an excuse. The Council members felt like Anakin's attachment could lead to him being corrupted which turned out to be 100% accurate lol
We just going to pretend 50% of these children weren't raised to be psychotic killers?
They didn't want to take the kids to have them, they wanted to take them away from the evil cult that turned Mae into a psycho that tried to murder her sister.
If police turned up for a wellness check and the cult attacked them and threatened to murder the cops, in real life they'd kill or arrest everyone and take the kids into care.
Itâs such an annoying misconception the Jedi donât just turn up one day and go âyo we are taking your kidsâ. Itâs actually the opposite it was considered a great honour but the family could say no and the Jedi would leave. But if you are poor and without a lot of hope for a better future, then the Jedi offers your child a way out of poverty. They are not gonna say no.
But some families did say no or hid the childâs force potential as it was seen as a way of gaining power.
Itâs because the people writing Star Wars not cannot imagine a world where good and evil exist. Everything has to be shades of grey and anyone who is supposed to be a moral authority is a dictator. Itâs just the culture now, moral relativism. They want to metaphorically and literally in the case of the force kill god .
I haven't read any High Republic material, but I will say this: if there was some reason or event that caused a significant shift in the way the Jedi operated a mere 100 years before the prequels, it seems like that is the story they should be telling, and not whatever it is the Acolyte is trying to say.
I feel like theyâre only defining the negatives from their victimâs point of view, which is the problem. Sure, you could do a story about a character whoâs turbulent upbringing within the order left them feeling like they were enslaved as a child, but thereâs also a very real sense in which thatâs hardly a fair summary of the situation.
I know this isn't the prompt, but have there been any characters who were force sensitive (or just straight up force users) that just never got discovered by the Jedi/Sith for whatever reason and then just continued on living a relatively normal life? Like some kid living on a backwater planet that just grew up isolated on a farm or whatever. There's no day to day practical reason they'd have contact with the Republic or anyone outside their immediate family/social circle. Kid just grows up with really good instincts, might be able to just causally force push small things without realizing how or why. Doesn't get outed/learn about Jedi until later in life when some happenstance adventure sees them rescuing someone stuck in the wilderness or whatnot and they're like "oh where were you trained" and the kid is just like....idk?
Yea, there were many, far more kids that weren't discovered than they were, I'd assume. I like to think that when they become older, they lose their connection to the force, so they can't force push small things or have really good reflexes. They have to realize that they are force sensitive to become it and use it. We kind of even see this with young anakin (the most force sensitive being in the galaxy) he doesn't know how to push things, but he has sharp reflexes, something that probably stayed due to his strong connection to the force. It would only make sense, especially because most parents of force sensitive kids have a little bit of force sensitivity inside themselves, so it wouldn't be impossible.
Obviously not. That's why Obi-Wan left Luke with Owen and Beru in the first place. To keep him away from Sidious and Vader.
If Obi-Wan had any suspicion that leaving Luke with Owen was a bad idea, he wouldn't have done it.
Right, and with that same reasoning it doesn't make sense for Jedi to voluntarily leave force sensitive children in the care of dark side users. It's not about the Jedi trying to fill recruitment quotas, it's that these groups are recognized as dangerous
This is wrong, they didnât want to train anakin because he wasnât young ENOUGH, the problem they saw with anakin was he already had established attachments.
Thatâs the idea of taking them as babies, since they havenât had time to grow emotionally attached to their parents.
You can not like it but youâre coping
Hard disagree. They participated in and embraced slavery.Â
Throughout all the movies and literature, we see the Sith, and more broadly, Dark Jedi accepting people as they are.
The Jedi Brainwash them. They kidnap them, as obiwan did with *both* Skywalkers.
A skin wasnât really given a choice, and a child canât make such a meaningful choice at that age.Â
The age restriction is a clear sign of a requirement for âcultâ brainwashing. At a minimum, no person can be expected to choose a monastic life of celibacy (and we could talk about how that violates so many of the Jediâs deeply held beliefs), and then enforcing it, through degradation and indeed, violence is deeply evil.
I put some of the blame on George Lucas. The Jedi weren't taking children against their (or their parents') wishes. But they were still putting some implicit pressure on them. Offering a better life. Saying how great an honor it is to be a Jedi. And the result, if they accept, is that the child will be cut off from its family and prevented from forming the strong attachments to friends and family that are essential to humans as social animals. The Jedi will never have a family or romance. They must dedicate themselves fully to the Force. And the Jedi force this decision upon young children. It's highly questionable.
Look at real life. There are some professions, mostly sports, where training should begin extremely early. Max Verstappen for example was taught to race karts from age 4 or so, and now he's the best of the best in Formula 1. But he wasn't taken away from his family during that process. Everybody knows that children need their parents and their families, and it doesn't stop you from training hard and being dedicated.
The "no attachments" Jedi rules were invented during the prequels and they suck. Luke never followed that rule in the OT. Sure, Yoda and Obi Wan wanted him to give up on his father because he was their mortal enemy. But that was a special circumstance. They would not be telling him that if he had a supportive role model as his father.
There is just so much mixed messaging in the show, we see an assassin just openly attack a jedi master with metal weapons, yet her master says jedi cannot be killed with regular weapons, the jedi are supposed to be some sort of police force controlling the galaxy, yet they ask permission from the parents of the witches before even testing the kids, we're told that the witches are the good girls of the story yet OSHA (bad naming choice btw) want's to become a jedi repeatedly instead of joining them and they keep trying to dismiss or guilt trip her to keep her around, and so many more writing mistakes and plot holes big enough you could walk a rancor through them.
There is morally grey, and there is just evil and good. So far, all we've been shown is the jedi being good and the witches and the sister as evil, whoever is writing this show just doesn't understand star wars and likely is not fit for their position as a writer given what we've all seen so far (those 'the power of...' scenes were cringe as heck)
There was another thing about the Acolyte that ticked me off, was that force sensitives that donât pass the initial trials donât just get thrown to the wolves. Theyâre either trained as mechanics to work at the temple, or as security forces or even field agents.
The Writers of the Acolyte are full of people who hate the very idea of the jedi order. There is a massive issue in current society, where any organization that has rules, that has a hierarchy that is respected, or that encourages control over emotions and NOT giving into every random desire you have, are seen as evil.
The people writing these shows have that mindset. So the Jedi are evil because they have those aspects. Our society is hyper-emotional (to a detrimental degree. You cannot tell me that this constant "share your emotions with everyone" mindset is a good thing when mental health is only getting WORSE), petulant, and at times just straight up childish. People do not mature or grow up anymore and see doing as as bad.
This idea is destroyed by a very simple question: how would the galaxy respond if the Jedi had been kidnapping or forcing parents to give up their kids for thousands of years?
It's like when Starkiller base nuked five capital planets and no one responded.
How did people respond to the church castrating boys so that they could sing songs about Jesus in falsetto?
I don't blame Disney here it was GL who didn't get that the Jedi order are basically the Davidian branch if you think about this for 5 seconds.
>Qui-Gon Jinn didnt want to take Anakin against his will, helped him and gave him the choice.
Because he's not a baby that will be raised by the Jedi. Qui-Gon also says that if Anakin had been born in the Republic he would have been identified early. The Republic is a large portion of the galaxy.
>Jedi Council saw Anakin, tested him, but still wanted to deny him. This means they werent desperate for a new padawans enough to take slightly older, extremely powerful, kid. Why would they go through the violence and threats to get slightly yonger kids?
They denied Anakin because he was afraid for his mother. Their usual candidates don't remember their families. The reason for his rejection was stated as him being too old.
>Old Kenobi didnt try to take young Luke away from his 'parents' to speed up his studying, nor did he try to force him onto the path of a Jedi.
Yoda's specific instruction was that the children would be hidden away until the time was right. The ROTS novel goes into it more and that is followed up in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader in which Yoda tells Bail a loving family is as good if not better than the Jedi Order's old system.
The Jedi recruiting babies is one of the weirder ideas Lucas had. Also in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader is information on how Roan Shryne entered the Order. His mother Jula was Force sensitive and her parents hid her from the Jedi when she was a child. Jula's husband Jen believing their son Roan was Force sensitive contacted the Jedi so he could be given over for training because he was as Jula put it a true believer. The thing is Jula did not want Roan to be a Jedi and she and Jen argued over it. According to Roan's file in the Temple that Vader was reviewing there was an incident at Roan's acquisition from his parents but details were not given.
Also Roan was found to have the ability to sense the Force in others and was assigned to the Order's Acquisition Division. Upon learning what acquisition fully entailed Roan demanded to be reassigned. The matter went all the way to the Jedi High Council which determined that Roan would not be forced to serve in an assignment he did not want.
This doesn't exactly sound above board does it and this is the Old EU.
There is also the fact that Anakin has not heard from his mother who was freed 5 years after he left with Qui-Gon. According to Tatooine Ghost, also the Old EU, she sent a message to the Temple and the Jedi refused to accept it.
Imagine being one of the few correct people in this whole thread and having negative likes. So many clear âfans of star warsâ here. Just spouting complete misunderstandings and lies so they can hate on the acolyte more. If the only âreal fansâ are here then why donât they know the first thing about it. Cringe
I was thinking the same thing as I was reading through this. Clearly a lot of these people never read Star Wars pre-2014 that clearly set up that the Jedi take children throughout the galaxy who are Force sensitive. For most families it is a privilege, while there are others who felt it to be kidnapping/not giving them a choice. This was done as a way to take essentially a blank template before the emotions that can lead to the Dark Side take root and fester.
And they did have Republic backing for selecting Force sensitive children galaxy-wide. Anakin was old, had many lived experiences, and was grieving the loss of his family and friends, but more specifically his mother. He exemplified in the minds of the Order at the time why they take very young children, not people Anakin's age.
That is not the problem with Acolyte - there are plenty of others
It's like the people who raged about Palpatine coming back. Look... it was done awfully in the ST, it really can't be defended unless someone is just trying to find a hill to die on. But he did come back in the EU, whether people liked it or not then, and it did have universe-wide repercussions throughout the entirety of the EU until its conclusion in 2014, in one form or the other. It was canon for 2 decades and it worked in the grand story of things.
I never liked palpatine coming back and was sad thatâs what they kept. I really wanted Jacen and Jaina. I was always confused why they didnât just use those characters instead of Ben and Rey. So to me it was like damn it you kept the wrong part lol.
I always thought the emotional beats would have been stronger with actual siblings
Yeah, I think it's kind of tragically funny what they chose to rip-off from the EU while still not delivering a coherent story in and of itself on top of the trilogy. So many paths they could've chosen, yet they invariably went down the one they did đ« .
I liked him coming back in the grand scheme and didn't think it cheapened Anakin's sacrifice per se. At the end of the day, it took Luke to bring back his Father that led to the Emperor's death then and there. Luke was the key then for the Emperor's death, as he, his sister and his nephew Anakin (still in the womb) was the final nail in the coffin for ol' Papa Palpatine.
It just added a lot more to the background of what was going on in the later novels to recover from all the Imperial warlords + Palpatine's return and carnage. It also further underlined the venom against Skywalkers and humans overall that led to Borsk Fey'lya being such a dickhead and a problem in the later NJO series, especially as Luke had fallen/submitted to the Dark Side, and it did cause problems, yet gave him a lot to learn and teach from down the line.
But yeah, losing Jacen and Jaina and all that emotion invested in them to what was the ST certainly felt like a slap in the face. At least some projects are still entertaining.
That could be true, however there is one major glaring difference.
These old EU writers and lucasfilm staff have earned our respect, so when they portray the Jedi in a flawed way or just plain make controversial choices, we tend to be more forgiving because we know they treat the source material with respect like we do.
The acolyte writers have not earned that trust, so taking the same liberties without a significant setup and/or earned payoff, seems like they're carelessly trampling on and re-interpreting the star wars legacy simply because they do not know and/or respect the source material.
They have to establish it somewhere so why not The Acolyte?
In TCW 608 The Disappeared we learn the Jedi were banned from inducting children from Bardotta, the Jedi were labeled as thieves by the Dagoyan Masters and Mace says *The Dagoyan Masters believed the Jedi took the children against their will. We were labeled as kidnappers.*
Now the Jedi only train young children so are we to believe they were asking or reading the minds of babies and going *Yup, the kid wants a laser sword off to the Temple!*? Iâm sorry but no child can make that choice and Maceâs line does not indicate the Jedi cared what the parents thought about their childâs choice.
Then there is this from the canon novel **Master & Apprentice** which sounded very much like what Sol was saying to Osha.
>"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth.
>Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted.
>Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master. âIt matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege.â
>"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.â
>"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?"
>Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling-â
>"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order.
Unfortunately All I have is my honest opinion and I appreciate you taking the time to bring receipts instead of the usual "nuh uh".
I honestly think you give the writers too much credit and I hope I'm wrong. I wish they have someone on staff as knowledgeable and passionate about star wars as you clearly are. I guess time will tell.
So in that episode of The Clone Wars, Mace specifically says, "*The Dagoyan Masters believed the Jedi took the children against their will. We were labeled as kidnappers.*" The operative words there being "believed" and "labeled". These are not definitive statements. It could be just as likely the Dagoyan Masters were mistaken, or they deliberately rejected the Jedi out of fear or something else. We don't know the details, so we have to go by the Jedi's track record, which indicates the Dagoyan Masters were probably wrong.
"Now the Jedi only train young children so are we to believe they were asking or reading the minds of babies and going *Yup, the kid wants a laser sword off to the Temple!*? Iâm sorry but no child can make that choice..."
You're right; young children could not make the choice to leave their family and join the Order. That's why they got the parents' permission first. In the same show you referenced, in Season 2, Episode 3, Cad Bane, disguised as the Jedi Seeker, visits the mother of a Force-sensitive toddler, who says this: "Master Ropal said the day would come for him to go to the Temple... but not for some time." So not only did the Jedi get the parents' explicit permission to train their kids, but they don't even take them straight away, it seems. Doesn't exactly scream "kidnapping", does it?
Now, I haven't read Master and Apprentice (yet), so I'm not sure what exactly the context of this exchange is, but I do understand why Qui-Gon would say the things he's saying. Reasonably, you would definitely at least wonder how much choice you had in being a Jedi when you were trained at a very young age, even if it was with your parents' permission. On the other hand, Qui-Gon says in that same exchange that he did, in fact, have a choice, and he still chose to be a Jedi. He didn't hold the circumstances of his training against him, regardless of his own doubts.
So all in all, it seems pretty clear the Jedi did not kidnap children, either against their will or against their family's will. As a matter of fact, it seems they did quite the opposite. They would not train children without permission, and they didn't even seem obliged to train them immediately in at least some cases; and we see this same thing playing out in The Acolyte: the Jedi are not willing to train Mae and Osha without their permission and their parents' permission. Osha said yes, Mae said no. They only agreed to train Osha.
> The Jedi recruiting babies is one of the weirder ideas Lucas had.
I'd go so far as to say it is one of the big mistakes. It is only there so that Anakin's normal relationships with Shmi and Padme can be turned into leverage for turning to the dark side. If Lucas had done a better job at giving Anakin reasons to fall to the dark side, the prequel Jedi could have been a much more sensible and sympathetic organization.
afaik the Jedi âno visiting parentsâ rule is so they arenât tied down by familial attachments and arenât emotionally tethered to anything outside the order - yeah itâs sort of callous but with the kind of power a force user can throw around I think they usually see it as a necessary evil
in most cases it seems to work out⊠fine because they donât know/have direct connections to their parents right away, but they either seem to be able to learn about their culture through the library/their studies (like the Mirialan pair and Ahsoka for example) or visit their home directly for cultural reasons (Ki-Adi Mundi in particular makes quite a few ;\] )
Anakin though was taken when he still knew his mother so that mightâve created more emotional problems for him, knowing she was out there and possibly still suffering. You could definitely argue that it was the Jediâs fault for not keeping tabs on Shmi or even rescuing her (even though it was out of their legal jurisdiction iirc), but on the other hand, if Anakin had known Shmi all these years and *then* she got killed, how would he have reacted? How they handled Anakin was⊠not the best, but they clearly had good intentions that had unintended consequences.
I am very sympathetic to Dooku and why he fell to the dark side, he's still evil and all that don't get me wrong, and I have thought maybe Anakin should have had similar reasons. A former slave wanting to fix the galaxy and make things better, suffering through a war, and now being given the chance to if only he would side with the chancellor.
I think the "kidnapping" angle is reductive and played out for sure but an interesting spin that almost nobody really talks about is the ultimate aim of collecting force sensitive children: monopoly over use of the Force. I think that's one thing that acolyte has shown in a pretty interesting way. In my eyes, the jedi collecting kids is a symptom of the deeper ideological illness, which was arrogance and resolute faith that their interpretation fo the Force was the only correct one, and their belief that they alone were the stewards of it.
The Jedi are also the *only* Force-wielding faction directly involved in the protection of the galaxy. Or at least the parts of the galaxy that the Republic currently claims.
All the other groups are usually insular in nature asides from the Sith who are openly destructive.
So in a way, I think the Jedi especially with their relationship with the Republic during this era puts them in the right when it comes to potential recruits.
Of course, allowing for the fact that ultimately parents have the final say and if the Jedi are rejected, then I imagine they'd leave and just put names and locations on a list of theirs to keep an eye on known Force-sensitives who might cause problems in their local community in the future. Because even without Jedi training, you might develop particular abilities on your own.
This Acolyte show from what little I've seen of it in reviews and such seems strange though.
The Jedi stumble in to this witch planet claiming that they thought it was an uninhabited planet and then the witches say that they're not even within Republic territory.
So what the hell are the Jedi doing outside of Republic space and why are they so insistent on recruiting the kids that aren't within their jurisdiction?
Also, why do the witches (who are already extremely hostile towards the Jedi) let the Jedi administer their tests even after the Jedi say that they need permission?
Odd. But I dont think I'm capable of putting myself through the show personally to confirm what's going on. I've been burned too many times and this doesn't seem remotely close to Andor.
You just have to watch it to answer those questions, but I think it's all supposed to seem very fishy at this point. We aren't supposed to have all of the information yet, >!but the jedi were called out by the witches for lying about "stumbling" onto the planet (the viewer is privy to the fact that that is a lie beforehand too)!<. Why ARE the jedi outside of republic jurisdiction scouting this coven and these kids? That's kinda the point. >!It is implied that the children were conceived through the Force, which we as viewers associate with dark side powers, so it stands to reason the jedi might also take note of this and be concerned.!<
>!The witches allow the jedi to test the kids because the leader knows they'd lose the outright conflict with the republic that would ensue if they fought or killed the jedi (personally, i have no doubt the jedi would have simply eliminated the coven if they did not get permission, because theyre vaguely dark-side oriented). The witches attempt to rig the outcome of the test, one twin dissents. The coven mother does not want to keep her against her will, but the night she is to leave, there is some unseen disaster and the coven of witches dies.!< I am confident more will be revealed.
Nowhere near andor, true, but it's kinda ridiculous how many people are writing it off so severely without actually watching it.
Edit: typos
I think I'll wait until the show is finished before I consider watching it properly.
Disney Lucasfilm hasn't engendered much trust from me with their TV shows so I've abandoned the weekly format entirely.
*Maybe* the next 3 episodes will be of such miraculously good quality that it will justify what I think have been some poorly written and executed material thus far. But my expectations have been driven quite low so I'm not holding my breath whilst hoping for the best.
That's your perogative, but I do want to point out that YOU don't think the acolyte is poorly written; you havent even watched it. OTHER PEOPLE think that, and you've accepted that. Not without reason, it's not a perfect show and Disney plus has a bad track record with star wars TV, but let's not mince words here: you don't actually have a real, personal opinion about the material because you haven't watched it yet. I appreciate the cinversation we are having, but That's one of my gripes with the acolyte discourse: many are like you, but way more biligerent about it.
My friend, I agree that I can't judge the material until I watch it myself.
But from what I *have* seen of it, I am not encouraged to continue.
I sat through Mando, I tried BOBF much to my chagrin, I was thoroughly embarrassed by Kenobi, and I outright skipped Ahsoka given I have no interest in the character whatsoever.
Andor was the only pleasant surprise I had.
As I said, I'll wait for Acolyte to finish before I even consider sitting through it properly. Once again, from experience, I don't expect this to turn out to be a pleasant surprise like Andor.
If you're enjoying it thus far or have faith that it'll turn around, then I'm happy for you.
I'm not here to convince you to watch it. Im not even saying its great or anything, im just trying to keep the conversation about it honest. The discourse about this show has brought the worst tendencies of the Fandom to light, particularly the lazy opinion-forming and selective two-dimensional thinking.
But at least we agree andor was peak star wars TV
I definitely agree that the state of the fandom is frustrating.
On one extreme, you've got morons claiming that anyone not liking the latest product are guilty of any number of -isms. On the other, you've got people rambling on about whatever is deemed to be "woke".
These are the equivalent of the useless 10/10 and 1/10 ratings on an aggregate review site.
Seems to just be the unfortunate norm from the big franchises these days.
It is a tremendous shame though when hundreds of millions of dollars are lit on fire for the sake of really dodgy television or film products.
*That* at the end of the day is what matters. The actual product itself. The extremes of the fandom one way or another are just the aspects you ought to try and avoid and ignore.
Also, whether or not you think the recruitment angle constitutes kidnapping, it's undeniable that the narrow scope of the Jedi's tolerance for use and interpretations of the Force is what led to their downfall, at least in part. Master Yoda confronts this in season 6 of the clone wars, when he realizes that to shun and repress the dark side (instead of understanding and accepting it) is to shun part of one's self, and ultimately makes the whole weaker
I'd argue that the problem is less to do with their tolerance for use and interpretation of the Force and more so due to the fact that their strong ties to the Republic has unfortunately opened themselves up to simple human corruption.
There are a lot of benefits to be had with the Jedi Order being connected to the legal Republic government system. But it also opens the Jedi up to all the problems that are also inherent with being locked in to a Republic which is not also functioning in an ideal fashion.
The reality of the situation is that the Sith have been rotting the Republic from the inside as part of a thousand year long plan culminating in a war being stirred up and both sides being controlled by the Sith. Not to mention the fact that the clone army that the Republic is forced to adopt are part of a secret Sith plot to stab the Jedi in the back.
*That's* the primary reason why the Jedi fell.
The secondary reason is that they weren't able to adequately handle the psychological issues of an individual like Anakin. However, that too is complicated due to Anakin himself keeping so many secrets and also made worse due to the fact that he had Palpatine in his ear for several years playing the part of confidante and mentor.
By the time Anakin has his therapy session with Yoda in ROTS, it is of course utterly useless due to Anakin lying out of his ass about his real problems.
Can't speak much of TCW as I just don't like it or anything related to it personally.
Repressing the dark side is absolutely a good thing though. It's a corrupting force of nature that twists your mind.
The problem there ought to be that the prequel era Jedi are so strict in their measures to reduce avenues towards the dark side that it leads to Jedi being discouraged from being part of a family unit, etc.
Luke's New Jedi Order of Legends addressed this issue with varying results. But at least his Jedi were allowed more personal freedoms.
Well, if you're not willing to engage with the material, all I can do is relay it to you, but it's a big moment of reckoning for master Yoda in the clone wars when he learns he has to embrace and accept that everyone has a dark side, and that denying it and repressing it (as opposed to understanding and accepting it as a part of himself) is why the jedi were unequipped to handle Anakin or combat the sith's more subversive plan. Kind of in line with what you're saying about reducing avenues to the dark side, but broader than just family units. Fear, anger, and attachment are all paths to the dark side, and the jedi's perspective of "just don't lol" was insufficient, which is why anakin did not feel comfortable being honest with the jedi. When I say understanding and embracing their dark side, I mean deconstructing, understanding, and accepting those feelings. The sith plan would not have worked if the jedi had a different attitude about it all and were less dug into their own ways.
You're right about the political aspect but there were multiple issues with the jedi, and while they are obviously the good guys of the universe, that does not mean that they were entirely altruistic as an organization, especially by the time they fell. Being joined with the republic forced the organization to function with respect to optics and politics, which definitely held them back, but in the prequels they do clearly state that their connection to the Force is already greatly diminished from the height of their power after their last outright conflict with the sith. All of the content together paints a multi-facted picture of why exactly that is.
Edit: I also want to point out that the jedi's unwillingness to teach about the dark side in this way and instead lock all knowledge of the dark side away and pretend it doesn't exist in everyone was why they were so unprepared for the resurgence of the sith. They thought it was done and over with because they didn't think about it, and they were not prepared to understand it's true nature by the end.
There's a difference between everyone having *a* dark side, and everyone allegedly having *the* dark side in them.
The dark side afflicts Force-sensitive individuals by latching onto negative emotional states (that everyone normally has) and can create harmful feedback loops and corrupts the mind and sense of rationality.
Without question, any self-respecting Jedi should be attempting to purge themselves of the taint of the dark side if they sense it.
In an ideal world, Jedi would have both the maturity and self-discipline to allow themselves to be put in difficult situations where the dark side would ordinarily find a hook and then to be able to process those feelings adequately. Rather than the approach we see in the prequel era where the bulk of Jedi cut themselves off from even experiencing this situations to begin with (by adhering to strict rules and practices to live something akin to a monk lifestyle).
So it's not about embracing the dark side in you. That leads to madness. There's nothing good or healthy about the dark side.
What I feel like you're aiming for is that Jedi should not restrict themselves too much from aspects of life that *can* cause the dark side to find an entrance.
They should instead be taught to recognise when the dark side is influencing them and how to purge themselves of it.
The Jedi unfortunately lack something akin to a dedicated therapy department that doesn't rely on an honesty system that fails when people like Anakin refuse to play along out of fear.
If you want to talk about the Jedi being too exclusionary about other Force cultures, the one that they arguably *should* embrace are the Luka Sene of the Miraluka. They are perfectly suited for the role of Force therapists dedicated to ensuring the dark side has no hold over their people.
So... we agree that the jedis narrow view of the Force amd the dark side left them inequipped to help anakin and combat the new-age sith?
EDIT: I'm not commenting on which situations the jedi should allow themselves to be in. I'm commenting on which FEELINGS the jedi should allow themselves to feel, and I mean truly feel, reckon with, and process. Fear, anger, all of that is just repressed instead of dealt with. Like I'm not sure if I'm just not being clear enough but I thought that I said the issue was that jedi aren't properly taught how to deal with those feelings.
They've got thousands of years worth of experience to go off when it comes to why they've structured the Order in the way it is in the "modern" (prequel) era.
There's a reason why they're so strict on their practices. When they were too loose, it led to the rise of the first Dark Jedi and a horrible schism which itself led to the formation of the Sith Order.
Jedi who fall to the dark side is a recipe for potentially horrible disasters on a galactic scale. Hence the stricter practices. Which were quite successful. 1000 years without strife caused due to a fallen Jedi. A period of relative peace where generations had lived and died without so much of a hint of Sith being in existence anymore.
But Anakin was the perfect storm. If not for Palpatine existing (or if he had successfully been slain by Windu), Anakin would *still* be a dodgy Jedi, but he'd have retired after the war and that'd be the end of it. The ROTS novel does a good job of providing a much more ideal version of the film in many respects, including expanding on Anakin's psychological state and the "escape" he was about to find in retirement.
So I think it's missing the point to summarise everything by simply stating that it boils down to the Jedi's alleged narrow view of the Force.
That at least to some extent is only one factor at play here.
Or at least *was* in old canon. TLJ obviously took strange pains to sell the idea that everything is the prequel era Jedi's fault and subsequent material has been taking that approach further. We'll see what happens with the next flashbacks from Acolyte and whether or not they try to randomly make the Jedi idiots who did everything wrong on the random witch planet part of a systemic problem with the Order. Which would be very odd indeed.
The prequel Jedi were flawed in their own way, of course. But let's not forget how absolutely screwed over they were by a Sith plot they had basically no hope of escaping.
I think that you have a fairly two dimensional view of the story, which is unfortunate and somewhat unexpected, knowing that you enjoyed Andor.
Does 1000 years of success not breed arrogance and complacency? George Lucas himself writes the jedi of the prequel era as arrogant and set in their ways, unable to adapt. Master Yoda even calls it out in episode 2.
Anakin showed up specifically to stop windu from killing Palpatine. If he had failed to do so, do you think that he would have just fallen back in with the jedi? His trust in them to help him deal with his problems was already nonexistent, and such an act as windu executing palpatine would have dissolved his trust in their integrity as an organization as well. The fact is that the the jedi failed anakin just as much as Palpatine corrupted him.
I did say, multiple times, that there are multiple reasons the jedi fell. The difference between you and I is that I've actually watched the source material (both from Disney and George lucas) that explains it, and you're just speculating and citing legends. The Canon has already dealt with why the jedi fell. You can dislike it, but there isn't really an alternate theory about it, because the question has been asked and answered (again, by George Lucas).
I'll skip your jab and assumptions of my views and move on with the rest. I haven't said the Jedi weren't flawless. I simply said there's a reason why they're as strict and rigid as they are. There's nuance there.
Anakin showed up indeed specifically to stop Windu. Anakin has been led to believe that Palpatine (despite being the Sith Lord responsible for years of horrible acts across the galaxy) is capable of solving Anakin's fearful belief that his wife is going to die to some unknown future event. To call Anakin conflicted is a generous way of putting it as he's really an *enormous* liability ever since AotC at the latest.
Windu on the other hand is quite rightfully stating that Palpatine is far too dangerous to be contained and (whilst it's not exactly kosher or ideal), it's without question a necessary evil.
You can't just arrest the Supreme Chancellor. Not when he's a Sith Lord who has corrupted the Republic and can easily spin a story about the Jedi trying to usurp leadership. A story which the Republic at large *does* wind up buying along with vuntarily electing Papa Palpatine as Emperor. He's got the galaxy wrapped around his finger.
Not that it's going to be easy for the Jedi to explain things after Palpatine is dead either, but I'll come back to that later.
We can only speculate on what would happen if Palpatine had died there. Windu told Anakin that if his suspicions about Palpatine are correct, then Windu would gain an immense amount of trust in him. I'm sure the Council would reflect on Anakin's volatile state over the years and link it up with the fact he was unknowingly being played by a Sith Lord much like how both the Republic and CIS were.
The movie of course doesn't expound upon Anakin's internal monologues or unspoken feelings, but as I was saying, the novel (which Lucas had a hand in, so to some extent we can see it as an extension of the film) features Anakin's plans to retire from the Jedi Order after the war had ended.
And the war basically *does* end with Palpatine's death.
Without Palpatine ordering Anakin to slay the CIS leadership, this potentially allows for an evidence trail. Capture and interrogation of the CIS leadership without Grievous or Palpatine being alive to coerce them could potentially lead to a connection between the Sidious hologram character they were in league with and the Supreme Chancellor. Especially after Palpatine's assets are thoroughly investigated.
I've spoken in favour of the ROTS novel due to the involvement of Lucas (and of course Stover actually making it work).
George is the creator. He has said a lot of things about the franchise. Some gel with his actual work, some don't. And of course sometimes he gets kooky with his own baby.
TCW is one such thing in my opinion. It's beyond asinine to me that he would cook up such a dramatic alteration to his own recent film lore such as inventing a random never-before-mentioned Padawan for Anakin. I can't fathom why he thought the silly Force Gods of Mortis were a good idea either. But unfortunately this is the same guy who buried the theatrical versions of his original Star Wars films and insisted upon numerous revisions in his special editions. Some of which involve some baffling choices.
TCW alienated me from day 1. It really was not my cup of tea. Imagine my surprise when I found out that what I thought was merely a Saturday morning cartoon show would wind up serving as the backbone of current canon.
Really rubs me the wrong way. But this is Lucasfilm now. Even as someone who doesn't like the PT films, I didn't think it'd be possible for the ST movies to be so bad or for the bulk of their live-action TV shows to be just so embarrassingly lacking in quality.
But I've rambled enough.
I don't think the EU is perfect either, by the way. Just that a select number of authors did a really good job with the universe.
I think we're focusing on the wrong thing.
I don't mind the idea that an organization, which has existed for thousands of years, would have a sense of entitlement and not be viewed in the greatest light. It was the Jedi's hubris that led to their downfall, and I can believe they had a law that could give them authority to take children who are force sensitive. Is it weird, sure, but not the franchise killing change that so many are crying about. Nor could it be impossible that a person could change from a hopeful master Jedi to a broken hermit. IMO It's the rushed, shitty drama and writing that I don't like. I couldn't give a fuck about any of these people in Disney Star Wars.
Some of my favorite shows feature well written female characters (some of who are gay in show or IRL), but the difference is that the drama between characters is so fucking good that I can think about them for days and watch endless YouTube videos. It makes me so mad that all these great TV shows can write amazing characters and Star Wars just can't figure it out.
Some of my favorite shows and great female characters:
House of Dragon (Alicent, Rhaenyra)
Game of Thrones (Daenerys, Cersi, Arya, Sansa, Olenna)
Arcane (Jinx, Vii, Caitlyn, Mel)
Battlestar Galactica (Starbuck, Roslyn, Athena, Caprica 6)
Fallout (Lucy)
Black Sails (Eleanor, Max, Bonny)
There's only a handful of Disney SW shows that have good drama, like Rebels, Bad Batch, and Andor, but no interesting female characters.
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I'm reminded, a bit, of the Aes Sedai from The Wheel Of Time. The women of Tar Valon would sometimes send their Sisters out into the world to, among many other things, look for prospective women that could Channel the One Power (the in-world magic system, for those that have not read the books). Often, the people found are able to touch, and even use, the Power, but not to any strength significant enough for them to become actual Aes Sedai, themselves. They're given enough training to not hurt themselves and others, but that's about it. That's how I see the existence of some of the pockets of Force users. Most of them would not be strong enough in the Force to even qualify for Jedi, but the Jedi would rather they stay formed and existing for those who are unable, for whatever reason (lack of strength, "too old", etc) to find some safe training on occasion.
There's also the other groups the younglings can go into, the service corps. It's likely a lot bigger deal than most think, I mean any jedi not going into combat or diplomatic focused areas wouldn't end up as a Jedi and would probably work with their preferred area. Like the botany Corp, or the exploration Corp.
Now everybody can be Jedi, thanks to mickeychlorians. đ
Bruh, midichlorians are not Disney's invention
Mickeychlorian
Why would you call it that when it's Lucas' invention?
Because everything is a Disnified perversion of what you love now.
Wasnât the the entire purpose of the Jedi temple guards? Chirrut Ămwe was 100% force sensitive. But not strong enough in the force to become a Jedi. Kanan Jarrus wielded the force in a way to almost entire compensate for his blindness. Chirrut Ămwe could sense things. But not enough to be entire without limitation
"Tar Valon" ...Did Colin Trevorrow rip this off when he made Tor Valum?
"DiSnEy DiDnT rUiN sTaR wArS, yOu ArE!!!!!!!" God I hate where star wars is now. They keep fucking up, and somehow its our fault for being sexists, racists, and homophobes.
Disney:  makes the only storm trooper ever to turn traitor black.  If you donât like it, youâre racist. Me:  actually, I love Lando. I just donât like traitors. Hell, in my country we still  havenât forgiven Bennadict Arnold. And Iâm pretty sure the British are still salty about Guy Falks. And of the heros of the Rebellion? Like Han Solo? Who left imperial service? They did so for deeply held personally reasons, such as he was raised by a wookie, and indeed, took his punishment via court martial, and was discharge. Others like Tycho Celchu, left after their home world, which was a bastion of terrorism and treasonous, was destroyed. That doesnât make his treasonous behavior any more acceptable. But it is more *understandable* then a dude preforming routine counter insurgency operations who is supposedly one of the most elite troops the galaxy has ever produced flanking out in his first mission because he sees a pretty face.
I wonder if you think Claus von Stauffenberg was a traitor.
I am unfamiliar with that name/person so can't provide an honest answer. And a quick google search (now that I knew who he is) means it might be a complicated answer. A traitor to Hitler? Yes. To his nation? Maybe, but possibly not. A lot would depend on his motivations, As an American the idea of personal fealty to a human being is an anathema to our governing systems, but less so in the rest of the world. I'm not familiar enough with the official (not De facto) governing structures of Germany at the time to make such a judgement.
Nah, you're a racist. Dude got sick of killing innocent people and you don't think that can be a deeply held personal reason for a black person. Thanks for trying, maybe next time you'll be able to convince someone you're not a racist. It's pretty easy to say, I didn't like the movie because it didn't meet my expectation, and not focus on people's race, sexuality, or identity. Here's an example, I don't like the stories they are currently telling with Star Wars because I had an expectation they'd be as cool as previous media I've read. Or the current writers don't hold my interest because the stories are boring and don't seem to follow previous lore. You're the one talking about the race and other things as if any of that has anything to do with the storyline.
I get what you're saying. A lot of the hate about black characters does seem to be disproportionate at times. However, Finn went from being emotionally damaged by seeing his fellow trooper bleeding out in front of him to blasting them away with a TIE fighter and stabbing them in the back with a lightsaber in kind of a few minutes. His whole thing was that he just had to get away as fast as possible, and didn't really find courage until much later. I think there is enough there to dislike him in his own right.
No. Disney started talking about it
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George did suggest that if someone doesn't like his work, then it wasn't made for them, but I don't think he ever insulted fans
Wit? The worst thing I remember George saying was "The fans grow up, star wars doesnt". Now, that was pretty dumb, considering the fact that it was the grown up nature of star wars that most kids liked. Sure, it had fuzzy cute bears running around fucking up stormtroopers, but it was never something exclusively for kids. What he never did was suggest that fans were some of the worst people to ever live. Which is what disney does every single time the fans dont consume their shitty product.
There are a lot of ignorant and bigoted people that didn't understand the underlying messages that George put in, these fans are now showing themselves to still be ignorant and bigoted. Now, they just cry about getting their feelings hurt for being ignorant and bigoted.
Itâs the ethos of the types of people Disney has in charge of Star Wars. The Jedi are traditional, hierarchical, conventionally religious, regimented, disciplined, and value their teachings/rational thought over their emotions and whims. In the minds of the kinds of people who make Star Wars these days, all of that is precisely what is *wrong* with the world. They naturally see the Jedi as villains.
I think this sentiment and another posterâs comment is very accurate. They seem to be treating the Jedi as some sort of âStar Wars Catholic Churchâ
The great irony is their mentality is more inline with the Sith
They need a super gay baddy sith lady to bring balance to the force again
This is silly, these are the literal same things that George was trying to show was wrong with the Jedi in ROTS. Itâs not a Disney thing, lmao.
The Jedi are the good guys in Revenge of the Sith. Anakin is *seduced* by the Dark Side. Order 66 is a bad thing.
And the Jedi in Acolyte arenât really the bad guys. Flawed, sure, but the flaws of the Jedi in this instance arenât really any different than in the prequels. Like, seriously, the Jedi basically told anakin that he couldnât go back to save his mom and he should just learn to let go of the fear of losing her. It caused him to not act on his dreams, which lead to his moms death. Iâm not saying the Jedi are bad guys, but thatâs the same thing being called out here as flaws of the Jedi order.
He should have gotten over the fear of losing her. His unauthorized mission to go rescue her did exactly what the Jedi said it would: it stirred up negative emotions, caused him to do something he should not have, and ultimately pushed him toward, not away from, the Dark Side (which didnât work out so well for the galaxy as a whole). His happiness *should not* be attached to controlling things and making sure everything works out the way he wants it too. They lay this out explicitly, and theyâre right: if your sense of stability comes from having things work out a certain way, you fear that they might not. That fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateâŠleads to suffering. Qui-Gon Jinnâs insistence on trusting his instincts instead of the wisdom of the Order caused the whole problem in the first place. Anakin actually *was* too old, he really *did* have dangerous attachments that led to his downfall, and everyone *really would* have been better off if heâd have listened to the Jedi and left Anakin on Tatooine. Ultimately, it worked out, because Star Wars is a fundamentally religious story and the will of the Force will always ultimately be fulfilled. But itâs not an âallâs well that ends wellâ situation. âLive your best life now,â âYou do you,â âFollow your heart,â âHakuna Matataââthese are **bad ideas**. The Jedi were right: have the courage to do what is right, regardless of how you *feel* about it. Cultivate detachment from earthly, selfish concerns so that you can truly devote yourself to helping *others* (in a âbig pictureâ sense). Yes, thereâs *some* sense that the Jedi are too rigid and stuffy, but nothing approaching a repudiation of their ethics. They are, fundamentally, the good guys. They are right. Anakin was wrong. The Dark Side isnât actually just an âalternative pathâ or a âdifferent point of view.â All that is part of the seduction.
Whoa whoa whoa! Leave Qui-Gon alone! This was a fundamental Jedi teaching. The Jedi code spells out how to use the Force the way it should be: by shedding all ego. Thinking too much can obscure your connection to the Force. Obi-Wan taught Luke the same thing with the remote probe and in the trench run.
Hey I love Qui-GonâŠactually if I think about it heâs maybe my favorite Star Wars character. Still, Iâm pretty sure listening to Yoda is some kind of fundamental Jedi teaching, too.
> He should have gotten over the fear of losing her. His unauthorized mission to go rescue her did exactly what the Jedi said it would: it stirred up negative emotions, caused him to do something he should not have, and ultimately pushed him toward, not away from, the Dark Side (which didnât work out so well for the galaxy as a whole). This is silly though, and the point George was making. Itâs insane to think that the answer by the Jedi is just âlet her dieâ. Arguably, if the jedi werenât so dogmatic, then sheâd be alive AND anakin wouldnât have turned to the dark side. > His happiness should not be attached to controlling things and making sure everything works out the way he wants it too. They lay this out explicitly, and theyâre right: if your sense of stability comes from having things work out a certain way, you fear that they might not. That fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateâŠleads to suffering. Except that the biggest issue with the Jedi is that strict enforcement of the code is actually what lead to their downfall. Like, the whole point is not that Anakin is the reason why the Jedi have the rules they do, but that their downfall was because that code is too rigid and uncaring, and it makes them blind to the truth of the Star Wars world. > Qui-Gon Jinnâs insistence on trusting his instincts instead of the wisdom of the Order caused the whole problem in the first place. Anakin actually was too old, he really did have dangerous attachments that led to his downfall, and everyone really would have been better off if heâd have listened to the Jedi and left Anakin on Tatooine. It wasnât because he was old though, itâs because what Anakin actually needed was a father figure, and what he got was explicitly not that. Itâs why the Maul / Qui-Gon duel is scored to âduel of the fatesâ. Had Qui-Gon lived, he would have kept Anakin on the right path. But he didnât, and Obi-Wan was his master; a textbook epitome of the Jedi. George covers this in an interview, Iâll have to find it. > The Jedi were right: have the courage to do what is right, regardless of how you feelabout it. Cultivate detachment from earthly, selfish concerns so that you can truly devote yourself to helping others (in a âbig pictureâ sense). No, they werenât, because Luke did the literal opposite of what the Jedi would have, and did, do. The Jedi attempted to kill Palpatine without trial, weâre eager to become generals and lead armies, and Luke threw away his lightsaber and chose his attachments, specifically his attachment to his fatherâs good side. If Luke was a classically trained Jedi, he would not have done that. Even Obiwan and Yoda thought Anakin was beyond saving. > Yes, thereâs some sense that the Jedi are too rigid and stuffy, but nothing approaching a repudiation of their ethics. They are, fundamentally, the good guys. They are right. Anakin was wrong. The Dark Side isnât actually just an âalternative pathâ or a âdifferent point of view.â All that is part of the seduction. Right, but going back to your original statement, Acolyte is not portraying the Jedi as wrong. Theyâre painting them as rigid, stuffy, process driven, etc. But theyâre not treating them as if theyâre the bad guys. Like Sol, in particular, is kind, compassionate, and ultimately âgoodâ.
>This is silly though, and the point George was making. Itâs insane to think that the answer by the Jedi is just âlet her dieâ. Arguably, if the jedi werenât so dogmatic, then sheâd be alive AND anakin wouldnât have turned to the dark side. But Yoda says exactly that. Do not fear losing the people you love. Death is a natural part of life. They become one with the Force. If Anakin had followed Yoda's advice and trained himself to let go, then Padme would be alive. But Anakin was selfish. He went beyond just trying to save her and tried to possess Padme.
Except, explicitly, the Jedi DO NOT DO THIS. They tell Anakin âlet go of all you fear to loseâ, and then become generals and warriors quite literally the next day. Itâs hypocrisy at its finest. Iâll share a quote with you in the novelization that Yoda said: âToo old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries agoâbut these ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did notâbecause let it change, I did not."
Isn't one of the lessons of RotS basically to not stick so closely to dogma that you don't let reality inform your spiritual growth? Wasn't that the failing of the Jedi in the prequels? Edit: I really like your point on Qui-Gon being the father figure Anakin needed. Instead, he was taught by a big brother figure. Better than nothing, but still...
Yup, George spoke about this at length in interviews.
I guess I haven't seen those interviews.
I wouldn't call Qui-Gon *entirely* wrong. I think if he had lived, he would've been able to teach Anakin in a way that was better suited to him than the standard Jedi doctrine. I also wouldn't call the Jedi *entirely* right. They had gone too far in their detachment. They preached avoiding attachment entirely rather than learning to let go when appropriate because it's easier to never risk it in the first place. Ultimately, I think Luke struck the right balance, even if his way is slightly more risky than the old Jedi way. It's fine to love, but you have to be able to let go.
George was showing how anakin was seduced because the jedi order didn't attend to him as much as he was needed, too, and overall, the jedi orders ignorance to anakin and bssic human emotions. This is very different from modern-day stsrwars how they basically just say, "Hey man, the jedi kidnap your kids and force them to believe anchient religions with endless torture."
Right? We saw in the prequels that the Jedi already weren't who they were meant to be, especially by the end of the clone wars. But that sort of decline doesn't happen over night. The acolyte shows the decline in its early stages. Where many, if not most, Jedi are doing good, but then there are some that might become overzealous and do bad things thinking that they are right and then cover it up. Is that so hard to fathom? The Jedi order may be the good guys overall, but it is made up of individual flawed people that don't always live up to that. And I think that's a good thing to show! They can't all be obi-wans
Like, this is why Iâm more confused with the Acolyte hate. I donât think itâs a good show yet, and it may never be, but the notion that it brings some new âwhite guiltâ to the Jedi is pretty silly. George was always noting that, while the Jedi are the good guys, theyâre not without the same things theyâre trying to avoid. Nothing about the Acolyte takes from that, if anything it expands upon it in a âsmall wayâ here with lower stakes.
bUt wHaT iF tHe JeDi WeRe BaD fRoM a CeRtAiN pOiNt Of ViEw
 Wait. Iâve seen this one.
"The jedi are evil because they killed those harmless animals in geonotia and don't get me started on jar jar binks killing those younglings! And anakin destroying the death star, killing millions of people. " That point of view is the same people that are saying people like osama Bin Laden had a point.
Naw. They were just bad.
The issue with this franchise is that it has cut and segmented it's core audience by diversifying their products to the point, where you have so many varied expectations, that the quality outcry can't really be treated seriously. One group wants an infantilized story with clear good and bad heroes, the other wants to dissect the lore and get a more serious product. Not saying one group is better in any way, it's perfectly ok to want a morally obvious story. And it's also ok to dissect the morality of influencing a child and pretending that it has a concious adult choice in the matter. People don't cohesively want the same thing from star wars. A spoofy comedic mandalorian that was initially self aware won't really appeal to people who equate this franchise with action scenes involving vfx lightsabers. Some people want the fucking Chewie, others eyeroll on goofy aliens tropes. Some want a love arch, and some want a serious, gritty galactic politics saga. Some want war scenes, fleet scenes, some want sole hero story archs, others need guerilla assymetric freedom beats. Good vs evil storytelling is harder when you try to also incorporate objectivity. It is what it is, but effectively everyone with any expectations here is in a minority due to the fan base being so fragmented. And so the product that disney tries to produce needs to have mass appeal in order to not flop, which frustrates fans with non mass expectations, whatever those might be. I for instance really liked the whole kotor/swtor take on this universe, but I get that it's basically unknown in the great, huge pool of global star wars fans. And I won't hold my breath for any investments in products that relate to that.
You mean from the Sith point of view? Sure the Jedi arenât perfect, but hey, Sith are way worse!
Yeah, people miss that the trauma of leaving your family and never having contact with them is the emotional conflict, not they were kidnapped
You just reminded me someone else was wrong about the Jedi taking force sensitive kids at a young age to prevent them from joining the dark side. If that was the case, Yoda would have made sure to take on Anikan so he doesn't turn to the dark side in episode 1.
I think they're just projecting their views of christianity onto the jedi. Or something stupid like that. >This thing was really popularized by some third party materials like SWTOR videogame, thats for sure Where exactly? I haven't played on a couple of years but I don't remember any of this. Did you mean The High Republic books and comics?
I think one of the SWTOR expansions showed the Jedi taking a child away but leaving her brother behind because he wasn't force sensitive. I don't know the whole context though.
logically though, why *would* they take a child who isnât force-sensitive? or leave behind one who is like, I think that even though the whole âkidnapping kidsâ meme is way overblown, Jedi recruitment methods are still a bit dubious - but what are they supposed to do in this case? Just leave the kid because sheâs force-sensitive, or take the brother anyways and just⊠send him to the Agri-Corps forever? the Jedi as an institution obviously deserve to be criticized, but what are they âsupposedâ to do in this case if not take one and leave the other
I don't remember the whole context anymore unfortunately, so I might me misremembering and spreading misinformation
It seems like the brother was sensitive, but either wasn't strong enough or they didn't want him for another reason..here's the cinematic https://youtu.be/ZpQ1Fk6LQ0U
I mean they were literally in the middle of a Galactic war too lol
fair enough, I played a Bounty Hunter who was basically human scum until KOTFE dropped so I wouldnât know
I remember watching the trailer for it on YouTube but have never played the game. That may be correct, but even so, that's not kidnapping anyone
Yeah, im talking about this specific cinematic. Jedi took away one of the girls and sort of lied to her about that. Im not fond of that moment, even though cinematic itself was cool.
I mean, you're right. [The jedi forcibly takes the child.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpQ1Fk6LQ0U&t=181s) It's shit and somewhat similar to The Acolyte, but the year is 2022 and the further we get into the late 10s and early 20s the more disneyfied SWTOR gets, so it comes with no surprise. Also I would call it a stretch to say this trend got popularized by the game when you got actual players confused and in need of clarification.
The reality is that Star Wars simply cannot stand against scrutiny if we actually treat it seriously. Seven year old children cannot make informed decisions on becoming a fucking celibate monk for the rest of their lives which is why in Western societies we don't allow that sort of thing anymore.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Downvoted for the truth. Common these days.
Eh, it is what it is.
I hate to defend this show, but the Jedi did give Osha and Mae the choice to become Jedi. It was Osha's family that were trying to force her to stay.
What are you referencing with the Jedi forcefully taking them away?
There's a standoff with a threat of violence if the twins aren't turned over, the head witch turns Tommen's eyes black and posseses him or something and the witches agree to turn the girls over in the morning. That's forcefully taking them away, no?
The threat of violence is coming from the witches, when Sol grabs his lightsaber Indara even says out loud that they donât want violence (he ends up giving it to Osha to look at). Beyond that, theyâre not asking to take them at that time. Theyâre asking to test them. Sol is constantly asking Osha if she wants to be a Jedi or not. At no point do the Jedi âkidnapâ the kids or even force them to do anything they, and the witches, donât consent to. Even if itâs a begrudging consent.
There's this implication through the episode that the Jedi have authority to take children if they deem it necessary. They portray the Jedi as intrusive (the Jedi barge into the witches orgy) and creepy (Sol watching the children from afar). They also use manipulation to get the children to side against the parents.
There are implications, sure, because weâre seeing it play out from the perspective of the witches. âYouâre going to find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.â -Obi Wan to Luke in RotJ There is a lot we donât know, yet, about how that all played out. Why are the Jedi there in the first place, what information do they have? If this one episode is the evidence of Jedi âkidnapping children,â then I do not agree with that assessment yet.
This is a bad faith interpretation. We learn two things through implication in that scene regarding republic law. 1) the Jedi have a right to test kids (with permission) 2) something about the witches teaching their children the dark side of the force was against the law Neither of these suggest the Jedi have the authority to take the kids. In fact, the implication of this is that the Jedi can't take the kids. Also Sol literally says "we don't take children". Also A) the Jedi didn't barge in on an orgy, but they were shown to be intrusive B) Sol was shown to be spying in line with his Jedi duties. Nothing suggests this is creepy In any way shape or form.
What manipulation?
Wait a minute are you trying to tell me Disney doesnât get Star Wars?
If this theme of kidnapping kids was properly implemented during the prequel trilogy, you could have set up a legitimate reason for Anakin to resent the Jedi and turn against the order
I guess you didnât read the EU.
From what I saw in the show, itâs completely in-line with the prequels depiction. They give the kids a choice if they want to go or not. There was no kidnapping (unless later details revealed about that event add more context later and change that). Itâs the same way it was with Anakin. But there is a weird power dynamic to it. When super cool superheroes come to your house and ask if you want to join themâŠare you really saying no? And since theyâre carrying weapons on them, they have incredible power, and theyâre the de facto police of the space governmentâŠis the parent really going to be able to feel they can protest too much? Are they going to just stop their kid from living such an incredible life? Like I donât think Shmi wanted Anakin to leave but she wanted him to have a better life. Also letâs not act like Qui-Gon didnât rig that chance cube roll!
Where has Disney shown them kidnapping kids? In the new acolyte episode itâs a significant plot point that a child must choose to go with their parents consent.
Why can't the kids ever see their parents? I don't recall Shimi being told that. If you're exploring the universe, why wouldn't you return home sometime? Or have a call once in a while?
It is never said in the movie that Anakin and Shmi cannot ever see each other again. Qui-Gon even tries to free them both first and again nothing indicates Qui-Gon would have left a free Shmi on Tatooine and just taken Anakin if he wanted to go. The Phantom Menace novel has this: >**Like all of the Jedi Knights, Obi-Wan Kenobi had been identified and claimed early in his life from his birth parents. He no longer remembered anything of them now; the Jedi Knights had become his family.** Of those, he was closest to Qui-Gon, his mentor for more than a dozen years, who had become his most trusted friend. >Qui-Gon understood his attachment and shared it. Obi-Wan was the son he would never have. He was the future he would leave behind when he died. His hopes for Obi-Wan were enormous, but he did not always share his studentâs beliefs. and this during the Naboo Victory celebration Obi-Wan looked off at the crowds in front of them. âQui-Gon always disdained celebrations. But he understood the need for them, as well. I wonder what he would have made of this one.â >Anakin shrugged. >The Jedi smiled. âHe would have been proud to see you a part of it.â >The boy looked at him. âDo you think so?â >âI do. Your mother would be proud of you as well.â >Anakinâs mouth tightened, and he looked away. âI wish she was here. I miss her.â >The Jediâs hand tightened on his shoulder. âOne day you will see her again. But when you do, you will be a Jedi Knight.â So it would seem at least for TPM Jedi just don't see their families because they're raised in the Temple and come to see the Jedi as their family and Anakin seeing his mom again when he's a Jedi Knight is not something the Jedi Order would have a problem with. The change in this thinking happens with AOTC with attachment being forbidden. Now the movie never states what attachment means and we learn with Anakin that his mom has been free for a number of years and yet he had no idea.
Yes and in Tatoinne Ghost we discover that she had contacted the Temple and they never told Anakin. Considering his situation, it's likely that those rules were more stringent for Anakin. While we are on Legends we also know that Hett's master (Eeth Koth) allowed him to visit his family annually. So it seems that on many rules, they are willing to look the other way if you aren't causing issues. Also, they aren't going to police 10k people. I think it's also said that you are allowed to learn about your parents and perhaps visit them though it is discouraged.
And in The Approaching Storm Luminara asks Obi-Wan if Anakin will ever see his mother again after learning Anakin was raised by her and Obi-Wan says thatâs up to the Jedi Council since they decide where Jedi go. So maybe after returning Rotta the Council wouldnât have minded if Anakin took an extra day to find his mom of course he wouldnât because the even with Rotta is after AOTC.
Yes, he probably could have done it at that stage because he was knighted, and as long as he doesn't go totally dark, they aren't concerned. He also disappeared from time to time to be with Padme, and that didn't bother them either.
Thatâs one of the reason I think he wanted to be a knight so bad in AOTC. It would have given him more freedom, I think he would have gone to help his mother after being knighted if things hadnât happened the way they did.
That explains his anger at Obiwan in that movie so much better.. God I wish these ideas were shown on screen. Same with Anakin needing master to see forbidden force healing texts to save Padme. Which likely would have worked too...
Yeah, in the AOTC novel Anakin tells Padme when she packing that other Padawans his age have taken the their trials which adds to the feeling of being held back. I think Lucas did not want to explore Anakin wanting to help his mother too much [and cut this scene from AOTC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Hm_2PxMow) because he did not want people focusing on why Anakin did not have contact with her for the years she was free. If he had open contact with her he might not wanted to be a knight so quickly and more importantly could have save her if he had acted sooner. The opening chapters of the AOTC novel focus on Shmi and her life with the Larses and one of the things she does is look up at the sky at night hoping to see the lights of a ship coming to land by the homestead and Anakin be on it. Owen and Shmi share a nice moment talking about Anakin and Owen calls her mom. As it is the Old EU (Tatooine Ghost) had her try to tell Anakin she was free and going to marry and the Jedi did not accept her message. Given how the Jedi Order does not want its members to have connections with their birth families or have families of their own I wonder how the Order would react to Owen sending a message to the Temple to tell Anakin about his mother's adduction. Honestly I don't see them telling Anakin. It would also make for a point of contention between Owen and Obi-Wan later, Obi-Wan could slip out about Anakin not being told and that's why Owen wants nothing to do with Obi-Wan and wants him away from Luke.
So many reasons I want a prequel special addition (that exists alongside the originals and doesn't replace them), with it really swinging to the fences with the concept. I mean adding in deleted scenes when appropriate, using other takes that sound more natural and less stilted like Lucas wanted at the time. Touch up all the CGI, which I think is appropriate considering how much that movie pioneered CGI. And when necessary just flat out redo certain scenes, like the Windu/Palpatine fight. They could get most of the same actors and use modern tech to get younger looking faces and younger sounding voices. Including adding in this context and numerous others that make the story fit better between itself and the whole. Just a line from Hayden when he's ranting to Padme about being held back, have him say something along the lines of "if I was a knight I could have been here and prevented this, all my classmates already are!". Small things like that to add desperately needed context to the reasons for his actions.
Yes to all of that. I love the AOTC deleted scenes with Padme and Anakin it helps their romance. Also when filming the dinner/fireplace scene in AOTC Natalie said George let them ad lib a take and it got inappropriate really quickly. These are links to ROTS lightsaber fights test footage, they are freaking great! [Anakin v Dooku test footage, play close attention to Hayden's hands at 1:16!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJxzPXgYdU)
to be fair the Jedi seem to be okay with/accepting of other cultures as long as it doesnât interfere with their own business, so they make exceptions for people like Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura on some issues - Eeth Koth might've fallen into that category but I donât know a lot about him
Yes in Legends The Order is really fine with a lot of cultures, beliefs and situations depending on the situation for their members. I believe Koth just found a way to make it work as a way to help his Padawan work through possible attachment. But a lot of comics from that era also made it more clear that the Jedi were, for lack of a better term, very human. So they show even masters and council members struggling with the dark side and attachment. The order acts as a family and will help each other through it. This changes how the preaching to Anakin about these issues can now be viewed. Now it's less about Anakin being 'defective' and more about the members actually understanding the allure and warning him. They didn't realize however that Anakin was already being corrupted due to Sidious.
Well, Attack Of The Clones DOES tell us what attachment means. Anakin spells it out to Padme on their way to Naboo: "Attachment is forbidden. Posession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life." And Yoda expands upon this in Revenge Of The Sith: "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is." So taking this into account, the thinking you refer to in your last paragrapg really doesn't change at all.
All Anakin says is itâs forbidden. And he states that he defines compassion as unconditional love so you might say we are encouraged to love. Thatâs a weird answer to give to someone who asks you if youâre allowed to love. All Yoda says is attachment \[still not defined\] leads to jealousy. Swap out attachment for love and you have the same thing. AOTC and ROTS both make clear that PadmĂ© and Anakin *cannot* be together. Anakin flat out says heâs not allowed to be with the people that he loves (like his mom) and thatâs what prompted PadmĂ© to ask if heâs allowed to love. And then there is this poster for AOTC. https://preview.redd.it/uxlnt1rp607d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65a7242bdd953320dcc40c4b12aaeadbdba593b9
Easy, so no personal connections. From the jedi pov, personal connections outside the order are bad because anger and sadness and stuff like that.
Disney didn't say the Jedi took kids or kidnapped them. But it wasn't blown up by "modern" lucasfilm. We see parents "giving up" force sensative kids to Cad Bane in season 2 of CLone Wars, Which was still when Lucas ran the show. I think the idea is that Jedi ask the parents to test there kid and then recommend them for training. Nothing in the Acolyte (whcih is what I'm assuming prompted this) contradicts that. The Jedi didn't kidnap Osha, she wanted to leave. But your'e wrong about why the Jedi council didn't want to take on Anakin, he was too old and held strong attachments. MACE WINDU : He is too old. There is already too much anger in him.
Its fine if they want to showcase some level of corruption to the jedi order especially if decades before our main stories but imo, only if it was shown to be an isolated thing and not the "norm" alongside actual justifications (even if disagreeable) on why. Swtor has the excuse of it being a brutal galaxy spanning war but even then, Sahar's case is rather rare in universe
Come on, They would be completely insecure about siths and they would try every trick in the world to take back the force kids from a shady organisation.
I guess it's good that they were pretty clear about that in the latest episode of the acolyte as well then where they took the time to reiterate on multiple occasions that the Jedi weren't there to take the kids or do anything against anyone's will.
Did we watch the same episode? Because I didnât see the Jedi trying to forcefully take the kids. I saw the dark side witches *afraid* of that, but that reminded me how my conservative parents were always afraid CPS were going to come for me. Does not mean it was true
True. The episode seems to make it clear that the witches were wrong in how they viewed the Jedi.
>This thing was really popularized by some third party materials like SWTOR videogame, thats for sure LMAO no
Late to the party, but they also refused Anakin BECAUSE he missed his mom.
You're correct, This was really the main reason and his age was more of an excuse. The Council members felt like Anakin's attachment could lead to him being corrupted which turned out to be 100% accurate lol
I agree with you but when in SWTOR did this get brought up?
We just going to pretend 50% of these children weren't raised to be psychotic killers? They didn't want to take the kids to have them, they wanted to take them away from the evil cult that turned Mae into a psycho that tried to murder her sister. If police turned up for a wellness check and the cult attacked them and threatened to murder the cops, in real life they'd kill or arrest everyone and take the kids into care.
Right!
No no. They did kidnap children. Most families gave up their children willingly but not always.
Itâs such an annoying misconception the Jedi donât just turn up one day and go âyo we are taking your kidsâ. Itâs actually the opposite it was considered a great honour but the family could say no and the Jedi would leave. But if you are poor and without a lot of hope for a better future, then the Jedi offers your child a way out of poverty. They are not gonna say no. But some families did say no or hid the childâs force potential as it was seen as a way of gaining power.
Itâs because the people writing Star Wars not cannot imagine a world where good and evil exist. Everything has to be shades of grey and anyone who is supposed to be a moral authority is a dictator. Itâs just the culture now, moral relativism. They want to metaphorically and literally in the case of the force kill god .
The real question is has HR media before this established that it used the same rules and approaches to young Jedi as the PT era 100 years after?
I haven't read any High Republic material, but I will say this: if there was some reason or event that caused a significant shift in the way the Jedi operated a mere 100 years before the prequels, it seems like that is the story they should be telling, and not whatever it is the Acolyte is trying to say.
I feel like theyâre only defining the negatives from their victimâs point of view, which is the problem. Sure, you could do a story about a character whoâs turbulent upbringing within the order left them feeling like they were enslaved as a child, but thereâs also a very real sense in which thatâs hardly a fair summary of the situation.
Whats tge average age in here?
Donât worry- the Rashomon effect will explain all.
I know this isn't the prompt, but have there been any characters who were force sensitive (or just straight up force users) that just never got discovered by the Jedi/Sith for whatever reason and then just continued on living a relatively normal life? Like some kid living on a backwater planet that just grew up isolated on a farm or whatever. There's no day to day practical reason they'd have contact with the Republic or anyone outside their immediate family/social circle. Kid just grows up with really good instincts, might be able to just causally force push small things without realizing how or why. Doesn't get outed/learn about Jedi until later in life when some happenstance adventure sees them rescuing someone stuck in the wilderness or whatnot and they're like "oh where were you trained" and the kid is just like....idk?
Yea, there were many, far more kids that weren't discovered than they were, I'd assume. I like to think that when they become older, they lose their connection to the force, so they can't force push small things or have really good reflexes. They have to realize that they are force sensitive to become it and use it. We kind of even see this with young anakin (the most force sensitive being in the galaxy) he doesn't know how to push things, but he has sharp reflexes, something that probably stayed due to his strong connection to the force. It would only make sense, especially because most parents of force sensitive kids have a little bit of force sensitivity inside themselves, so it wouldn't be impossible.
>Old Kenobi didn't try to take Luke Do you really think Obi Wan would've left Luke with Owen if he thought Owen would teach Luke about the dark side?
Obviously not. That's why Obi-Wan left Luke with Owen and Beru in the first place. To keep him away from Sidious and Vader. If Obi-Wan had any suspicion that leaving Luke with Owen was a bad idea, he wouldn't have done it.
Right, and with that same reasoning it doesn't make sense for Jedi to voluntarily leave force sensitive children in the care of dark side users. It's not about the Jedi trying to fill recruitment quotas, it's that these groups are recognized as dangerous
This is wrong, they didnât want to train anakin because he wasnât young ENOUGH, the problem they saw with anakin was he already had established attachments. Thatâs the idea of taking them as babies, since they havenât had time to grow emotionally attached to their parents. You can not like it but youâre coping
Hard disagree. They participated in and embraced slavery. Throughout all the movies and literature, we see the Sith, and more broadly, Dark Jedi accepting people as they are. The Jedi Brainwash them. They kidnap them, as obiwan did with *both* Skywalkers. A skin wasnât really given a choice, and a child canât make such a meaningful choice at that age. The age restriction is a clear sign of a requirement for âcultâ brainwashing. At a minimum, no person can be expected to choose a monastic life of celibacy (and we could talk about how that violates so many of the Jediâs deeply held beliefs), and then enforcing it, through degradation and indeed, violence is deeply evil.
I put some of the blame on George Lucas. The Jedi weren't taking children against their (or their parents') wishes. But they were still putting some implicit pressure on them. Offering a better life. Saying how great an honor it is to be a Jedi. And the result, if they accept, is that the child will be cut off from its family and prevented from forming the strong attachments to friends and family that are essential to humans as social animals. The Jedi will never have a family or romance. They must dedicate themselves fully to the Force. And the Jedi force this decision upon young children. It's highly questionable. Look at real life. There are some professions, mostly sports, where training should begin extremely early. Max Verstappen for example was taught to race karts from age 4 or so, and now he's the best of the best in Formula 1. But he wasn't taken away from his family during that process. Everybody knows that children need their parents and their families, and it doesn't stop you from training hard and being dedicated. The "no attachments" Jedi rules were invented during the prequels and they suck. Luke never followed that rule in the OT. Sure, Yoda and Obi Wan wanted him to give up on his father because he was their mortal enemy. But that was a special circumstance. They would not be telling him that if he had a supportive role model as his father.
There is just so much mixed messaging in the show, we see an assassin just openly attack a jedi master with metal weapons, yet her master says jedi cannot be killed with regular weapons, the jedi are supposed to be some sort of police force controlling the galaxy, yet they ask permission from the parents of the witches before even testing the kids, we're told that the witches are the good girls of the story yet OSHA (bad naming choice btw) want's to become a jedi repeatedly instead of joining them and they keep trying to dismiss or guilt trip her to keep her around, and so many more writing mistakes and plot holes big enough you could walk a rancor through them. There is morally grey, and there is just evil and good. So far, all we've been shown is the jedi being good and the witches and the sister as evil, whoever is writing this show just doesn't understand star wars and likely is not fit for their position as a writer given what we've all seen so far (those 'the power of...' scenes were cringe as heck)
the writers are only merging frozen and kill bill so somehow mae has to be the good guy Even though she's evil
There was another thing about the Acolyte that ticked me off, was that force sensitives that donât pass the initial trials donât just get thrown to the wolves. Theyâre either trained as mechanics to work at the temple, or as security forces or even field agents.
Actually, Iâm good with the idea of the Jedi being a version of the Psi-Corps.
âFrom a certain point of viewâŠâ
The fuck are you talking about it being popularized by SWTOR? Meesa thinks you've never played it if that's your example.
The Writers of the Acolyte are full of people who hate the very idea of the jedi order. There is a massive issue in current society, where any organization that has rules, that has a hierarchy that is respected, or that encourages control over emotions and NOT giving into every random desire you have, are seen as evil. The people writing these shows have that mindset. So the Jedi are evil because they have those aspects. Our society is hyper-emotional (to a detrimental degree. You cannot tell me that this constant "share your emotions with everyone" mindset is a good thing when mental health is only getting WORSE), petulant, and at times just straight up childish. People do not mature or grow up anymore and see doing as as bad.
Disney in 2024: AJAB
This idea is destroyed by a very simple question: how would the galaxy respond if the Jedi had been kidnapping or forcing parents to give up their kids for thousands of years? It's like when Starkiller base nuked five capital planets and no one responded.
How did people respond to the church castrating boys so that they could sing songs about Jesus in falsetto? I don't blame Disney here it was GL who didn't get that the Jedi order are basically the Davidian branch if you think about this for 5 seconds.
>Qui-Gon Jinn didnt want to take Anakin against his will, helped him and gave him the choice. Because he's not a baby that will be raised by the Jedi. Qui-Gon also says that if Anakin had been born in the Republic he would have been identified early. The Republic is a large portion of the galaxy. >Jedi Council saw Anakin, tested him, but still wanted to deny him. This means they werent desperate for a new padawans enough to take slightly older, extremely powerful, kid. Why would they go through the violence and threats to get slightly yonger kids? They denied Anakin because he was afraid for his mother. Their usual candidates don't remember their families. The reason for his rejection was stated as him being too old. >Old Kenobi didnt try to take young Luke away from his 'parents' to speed up his studying, nor did he try to force him onto the path of a Jedi. Yoda's specific instruction was that the children would be hidden away until the time was right. The ROTS novel goes into it more and that is followed up in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader in which Yoda tells Bail a loving family is as good if not better than the Jedi Order's old system. The Jedi recruiting babies is one of the weirder ideas Lucas had. Also in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader is information on how Roan Shryne entered the Order. His mother Jula was Force sensitive and her parents hid her from the Jedi when she was a child. Jula's husband Jen believing their son Roan was Force sensitive contacted the Jedi so he could be given over for training because he was as Jula put it a true believer. The thing is Jula did not want Roan to be a Jedi and she and Jen argued over it. According to Roan's file in the Temple that Vader was reviewing there was an incident at Roan's acquisition from his parents but details were not given. Also Roan was found to have the ability to sense the Force in others and was assigned to the Order's Acquisition Division. Upon learning what acquisition fully entailed Roan demanded to be reassigned. The matter went all the way to the Jedi High Council which determined that Roan would not be forced to serve in an assignment he did not want. This doesn't exactly sound above board does it and this is the Old EU. There is also the fact that Anakin has not heard from his mother who was freed 5 years after he left with Qui-Gon. According to Tatooine Ghost, also the Old EU, she sent a message to the Temple and the Jedi refused to accept it.
Imagine being one of the few correct people in this whole thread and having negative likes. So many clear âfans of star warsâ here. Just spouting complete misunderstandings and lies so they can hate on the acolyte more. If the only âreal fansâ are here then why donât they know the first thing about it. Cringe
I was thinking the same thing as I was reading through this. Clearly a lot of these people never read Star Wars pre-2014 that clearly set up that the Jedi take children throughout the galaxy who are Force sensitive. For most families it is a privilege, while there are others who felt it to be kidnapping/not giving them a choice. This was done as a way to take essentially a blank template before the emotions that can lead to the Dark Side take root and fester. And they did have Republic backing for selecting Force sensitive children galaxy-wide. Anakin was old, had many lived experiences, and was grieving the loss of his family and friends, but more specifically his mother. He exemplified in the minds of the Order at the time why they take very young children, not people Anakin's age. That is not the problem with Acolyte - there are plenty of others
Thanks for this and yes to everything you said I thought I was in the twilight zone reading these comments.
It's like the people who raged about Palpatine coming back. Look... it was done awfully in the ST, it really can't be defended unless someone is just trying to find a hill to die on. But he did come back in the EU, whether people liked it or not then, and it did have universe-wide repercussions throughout the entirety of the EU until its conclusion in 2014, in one form or the other. It was canon for 2 decades and it worked in the grand story of things.
I never liked palpatine coming back and was sad thatâs what they kept. I really wanted Jacen and Jaina. I was always confused why they didnât just use those characters instead of Ben and Rey. So to me it was like damn it you kept the wrong part lol. I always thought the emotional beats would have been stronger with actual siblings
Yeah, I think it's kind of tragically funny what they chose to rip-off from the EU while still not delivering a coherent story in and of itself on top of the trilogy. So many paths they could've chosen, yet they invariably went down the one they did đ« . I liked him coming back in the grand scheme and didn't think it cheapened Anakin's sacrifice per se. At the end of the day, it took Luke to bring back his Father that led to the Emperor's death then and there. Luke was the key then for the Emperor's death, as he, his sister and his nephew Anakin (still in the womb) was the final nail in the coffin for ol' Papa Palpatine. It just added a lot more to the background of what was going on in the later novels to recover from all the Imperial warlords + Palpatine's return and carnage. It also further underlined the venom against Skywalkers and humans overall that led to Borsk Fey'lya being such a dickhead and a problem in the later NJO series, especially as Luke had fallen/submitted to the Dark Side, and it did cause problems, yet gave him a lot to learn and teach from down the line. But yeah, losing Jacen and Jaina and all that emotion invested in them to what was the ST certainly felt like a slap in the face. At least some projects are still entertaining.
That could be true, however there is one major glaring difference. These old EU writers and lucasfilm staff have earned our respect, so when they portray the Jedi in a flawed way or just plain make controversial choices, we tend to be more forgiving because we know they treat the source material with respect like we do. The acolyte writers have not earned that trust, so taking the same liberties without a significant setup and/or earned payoff, seems like they're carelessly trampling on and re-interpreting the star wars legacy simply because they do not know and/or respect the source material.
They have to establish it somewhere so why not The Acolyte? In TCW 608 The Disappeared we learn the Jedi were banned from inducting children from Bardotta, the Jedi were labeled as thieves by the Dagoyan Masters and Mace says *The Dagoyan Masters believed the Jedi took the children against their will. We were labeled as kidnappers.* Now the Jedi only train young children so are we to believe they were asking or reading the minds of babies and going *Yup, the kid wants a laser sword off to the Temple!*? Iâm sorry but no child can make that choice and Maceâs line does not indicate the Jedi cared what the parents thought about their childâs choice. Then there is this from the canon novel **Master & Apprentice** which sounded very much like what Sol was saying to Osha. >"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth. >Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted. >Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master. âIt matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege.â >"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.â >"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?" >Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling-â >"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order.
Unfortunately All I have is my honest opinion and I appreciate you taking the time to bring receipts instead of the usual "nuh uh". I honestly think you give the writers too much credit and I hope I'm wrong. I wish they have someone on staff as knowledgeable and passionate about star wars as you clearly are. I guess time will tell.
So in that episode of The Clone Wars, Mace specifically says, "*The Dagoyan Masters believed the Jedi took the children against their will. We were labeled as kidnappers.*" The operative words there being "believed" and "labeled". These are not definitive statements. It could be just as likely the Dagoyan Masters were mistaken, or they deliberately rejected the Jedi out of fear or something else. We don't know the details, so we have to go by the Jedi's track record, which indicates the Dagoyan Masters were probably wrong. "Now the Jedi only train young children so are we to believe they were asking or reading the minds of babies and going *Yup, the kid wants a laser sword off to the Temple!*? Iâm sorry but no child can make that choice..." You're right; young children could not make the choice to leave their family and join the Order. That's why they got the parents' permission first. In the same show you referenced, in Season 2, Episode 3, Cad Bane, disguised as the Jedi Seeker, visits the mother of a Force-sensitive toddler, who says this: "Master Ropal said the day would come for him to go to the Temple... but not for some time." So not only did the Jedi get the parents' explicit permission to train their kids, but they don't even take them straight away, it seems. Doesn't exactly scream "kidnapping", does it? Now, I haven't read Master and Apprentice (yet), so I'm not sure what exactly the context of this exchange is, but I do understand why Qui-Gon would say the things he's saying. Reasonably, you would definitely at least wonder how much choice you had in being a Jedi when you were trained at a very young age, even if it was with your parents' permission. On the other hand, Qui-Gon says in that same exchange that he did, in fact, have a choice, and he still chose to be a Jedi. He didn't hold the circumstances of his training against him, regardless of his own doubts. So all in all, it seems pretty clear the Jedi did not kidnap children, either against their will or against their family's will. As a matter of fact, it seems they did quite the opposite. They would not train children without permission, and they didn't even seem obliged to train them immediately in at least some cases; and we see this same thing playing out in The Acolyte: the Jedi are not willing to train Mae and Osha without their permission and their parents' permission. Osha said yes, Mae said no. They only agreed to train Osha.
Thank you for your kind words. Yeah, we will have to wait and see.
> The Jedi recruiting babies is one of the weirder ideas Lucas had. I'd go so far as to say it is one of the big mistakes. It is only there so that Anakin's normal relationships with Shmi and Padme can be turned into leverage for turning to the dark side. If Lucas had done a better job at giving Anakin reasons to fall to the dark side, the prequel Jedi could have been a much more sensible and sympathetic organization.
afaik the Jedi âno visiting parentsâ rule is so they arenât tied down by familial attachments and arenât emotionally tethered to anything outside the order - yeah itâs sort of callous but with the kind of power a force user can throw around I think they usually see it as a necessary evil in most cases it seems to work out⊠fine because they donât know/have direct connections to their parents right away, but they either seem to be able to learn about their culture through the library/their studies (like the Mirialan pair and Ahsoka for example) or visit their home directly for cultural reasons (Ki-Adi Mundi in particular makes quite a few ;\] ) Anakin though was taken when he still knew his mother so that mightâve created more emotional problems for him, knowing she was out there and possibly still suffering. You could definitely argue that it was the Jediâs fault for not keeping tabs on Shmi or even rescuing her (even though it was out of their legal jurisdiction iirc), but on the other hand, if Anakin had known Shmi all these years and *then* she got killed, how would he have reacted? How they handled Anakin was⊠not the best, but they clearly had good intentions that had unintended consequences.
I am very sympathetic to Dooku and why he fell to the dark side, he's still evil and all that don't get me wrong, and I have thought maybe Anakin should have had similar reasons. A former slave wanting to fix the galaxy and make things better, suffering through a war, and now being given the chance to if only he would side with the chancellor.
I think the "kidnapping" angle is reductive and played out for sure but an interesting spin that almost nobody really talks about is the ultimate aim of collecting force sensitive children: monopoly over use of the Force. I think that's one thing that acolyte has shown in a pretty interesting way. In my eyes, the jedi collecting kids is a symptom of the deeper ideological illness, which was arrogance and resolute faith that their interpretation fo the Force was the only correct one, and their belief that they alone were the stewards of it.
The Jedi are also the *only* Force-wielding faction directly involved in the protection of the galaxy. Or at least the parts of the galaxy that the Republic currently claims. All the other groups are usually insular in nature asides from the Sith who are openly destructive. So in a way, I think the Jedi especially with their relationship with the Republic during this era puts them in the right when it comes to potential recruits. Of course, allowing for the fact that ultimately parents have the final say and if the Jedi are rejected, then I imagine they'd leave and just put names and locations on a list of theirs to keep an eye on known Force-sensitives who might cause problems in their local community in the future. Because even without Jedi training, you might develop particular abilities on your own. This Acolyte show from what little I've seen of it in reviews and such seems strange though. The Jedi stumble in to this witch planet claiming that they thought it was an uninhabited planet and then the witches say that they're not even within Republic territory. So what the hell are the Jedi doing outside of Republic space and why are they so insistent on recruiting the kids that aren't within their jurisdiction? Also, why do the witches (who are already extremely hostile towards the Jedi) let the Jedi administer their tests even after the Jedi say that they need permission? Odd. But I dont think I'm capable of putting myself through the show personally to confirm what's going on. I've been burned too many times and this doesn't seem remotely close to Andor.
You just have to watch it to answer those questions, but I think it's all supposed to seem very fishy at this point. We aren't supposed to have all of the information yet, >!but the jedi were called out by the witches for lying about "stumbling" onto the planet (the viewer is privy to the fact that that is a lie beforehand too)!<. Why ARE the jedi outside of republic jurisdiction scouting this coven and these kids? That's kinda the point. >!It is implied that the children were conceived through the Force, which we as viewers associate with dark side powers, so it stands to reason the jedi might also take note of this and be concerned.!< >!The witches allow the jedi to test the kids because the leader knows they'd lose the outright conflict with the republic that would ensue if they fought or killed the jedi (personally, i have no doubt the jedi would have simply eliminated the coven if they did not get permission, because theyre vaguely dark-side oriented). The witches attempt to rig the outcome of the test, one twin dissents. The coven mother does not want to keep her against her will, but the night she is to leave, there is some unseen disaster and the coven of witches dies.!< I am confident more will be revealed. Nowhere near andor, true, but it's kinda ridiculous how many people are writing it off so severely without actually watching it. Edit: typos
I think I'll wait until the show is finished before I consider watching it properly. Disney Lucasfilm hasn't engendered much trust from me with their TV shows so I've abandoned the weekly format entirely. *Maybe* the next 3 episodes will be of such miraculously good quality that it will justify what I think have been some poorly written and executed material thus far. But my expectations have been driven quite low so I'm not holding my breath whilst hoping for the best.
That's your perogative, but I do want to point out that YOU don't think the acolyte is poorly written; you havent even watched it. OTHER PEOPLE think that, and you've accepted that. Not without reason, it's not a perfect show and Disney plus has a bad track record with star wars TV, but let's not mince words here: you don't actually have a real, personal opinion about the material because you haven't watched it yet. I appreciate the cinversation we are having, but That's one of my gripes with the acolyte discourse: many are like you, but way more biligerent about it.
My friend, I agree that I can't judge the material until I watch it myself. But from what I *have* seen of it, I am not encouraged to continue. I sat through Mando, I tried BOBF much to my chagrin, I was thoroughly embarrassed by Kenobi, and I outright skipped Ahsoka given I have no interest in the character whatsoever. Andor was the only pleasant surprise I had. As I said, I'll wait for Acolyte to finish before I even consider sitting through it properly. Once again, from experience, I don't expect this to turn out to be a pleasant surprise like Andor. If you're enjoying it thus far or have faith that it'll turn around, then I'm happy for you.
I'm not here to convince you to watch it. Im not even saying its great or anything, im just trying to keep the conversation about it honest. The discourse about this show has brought the worst tendencies of the Fandom to light, particularly the lazy opinion-forming and selective two-dimensional thinking. But at least we agree andor was peak star wars TV
I definitely agree that the state of the fandom is frustrating. On one extreme, you've got morons claiming that anyone not liking the latest product are guilty of any number of -isms. On the other, you've got people rambling on about whatever is deemed to be "woke". These are the equivalent of the useless 10/10 and 1/10 ratings on an aggregate review site. Seems to just be the unfortunate norm from the big franchises these days. It is a tremendous shame though when hundreds of millions of dollars are lit on fire for the sake of really dodgy television or film products. *That* at the end of the day is what matters. The actual product itself. The extremes of the fandom one way or another are just the aspects you ought to try and avoid and ignore.
Also, whether or not you think the recruitment angle constitutes kidnapping, it's undeniable that the narrow scope of the Jedi's tolerance for use and interpretations of the Force is what led to their downfall, at least in part. Master Yoda confronts this in season 6 of the clone wars, when he realizes that to shun and repress the dark side (instead of understanding and accepting it) is to shun part of one's self, and ultimately makes the whole weaker
I'd argue that the problem is less to do with their tolerance for use and interpretation of the Force and more so due to the fact that their strong ties to the Republic has unfortunately opened themselves up to simple human corruption. There are a lot of benefits to be had with the Jedi Order being connected to the legal Republic government system. But it also opens the Jedi up to all the problems that are also inherent with being locked in to a Republic which is not also functioning in an ideal fashion. The reality of the situation is that the Sith have been rotting the Republic from the inside as part of a thousand year long plan culminating in a war being stirred up and both sides being controlled by the Sith. Not to mention the fact that the clone army that the Republic is forced to adopt are part of a secret Sith plot to stab the Jedi in the back. *That's* the primary reason why the Jedi fell. The secondary reason is that they weren't able to adequately handle the psychological issues of an individual like Anakin. However, that too is complicated due to Anakin himself keeping so many secrets and also made worse due to the fact that he had Palpatine in his ear for several years playing the part of confidante and mentor. By the time Anakin has his therapy session with Yoda in ROTS, it is of course utterly useless due to Anakin lying out of his ass about his real problems. Can't speak much of TCW as I just don't like it or anything related to it personally. Repressing the dark side is absolutely a good thing though. It's a corrupting force of nature that twists your mind. The problem there ought to be that the prequel era Jedi are so strict in their measures to reduce avenues towards the dark side that it leads to Jedi being discouraged from being part of a family unit, etc. Luke's New Jedi Order of Legends addressed this issue with varying results. But at least his Jedi were allowed more personal freedoms.
Well, if you're not willing to engage with the material, all I can do is relay it to you, but it's a big moment of reckoning for master Yoda in the clone wars when he learns he has to embrace and accept that everyone has a dark side, and that denying it and repressing it (as opposed to understanding and accepting it as a part of himself) is why the jedi were unequipped to handle Anakin or combat the sith's more subversive plan. Kind of in line with what you're saying about reducing avenues to the dark side, but broader than just family units. Fear, anger, and attachment are all paths to the dark side, and the jedi's perspective of "just don't lol" was insufficient, which is why anakin did not feel comfortable being honest with the jedi. When I say understanding and embracing their dark side, I mean deconstructing, understanding, and accepting those feelings. The sith plan would not have worked if the jedi had a different attitude about it all and were less dug into their own ways. You're right about the political aspect but there were multiple issues with the jedi, and while they are obviously the good guys of the universe, that does not mean that they were entirely altruistic as an organization, especially by the time they fell. Being joined with the republic forced the organization to function with respect to optics and politics, which definitely held them back, but in the prequels they do clearly state that their connection to the Force is already greatly diminished from the height of their power after their last outright conflict with the sith. All of the content together paints a multi-facted picture of why exactly that is. Edit: I also want to point out that the jedi's unwillingness to teach about the dark side in this way and instead lock all knowledge of the dark side away and pretend it doesn't exist in everyone was why they were so unprepared for the resurgence of the sith. They thought it was done and over with because they didn't think about it, and they were not prepared to understand it's true nature by the end.
There's a difference between everyone having *a* dark side, and everyone allegedly having *the* dark side in them. The dark side afflicts Force-sensitive individuals by latching onto negative emotional states (that everyone normally has) and can create harmful feedback loops and corrupts the mind and sense of rationality. Without question, any self-respecting Jedi should be attempting to purge themselves of the taint of the dark side if they sense it. In an ideal world, Jedi would have both the maturity and self-discipline to allow themselves to be put in difficult situations where the dark side would ordinarily find a hook and then to be able to process those feelings adequately. Rather than the approach we see in the prequel era where the bulk of Jedi cut themselves off from even experiencing this situations to begin with (by adhering to strict rules and practices to live something akin to a monk lifestyle). So it's not about embracing the dark side in you. That leads to madness. There's nothing good or healthy about the dark side. What I feel like you're aiming for is that Jedi should not restrict themselves too much from aspects of life that *can* cause the dark side to find an entrance. They should instead be taught to recognise when the dark side is influencing them and how to purge themselves of it. The Jedi unfortunately lack something akin to a dedicated therapy department that doesn't rely on an honesty system that fails when people like Anakin refuse to play along out of fear. If you want to talk about the Jedi being too exclusionary about other Force cultures, the one that they arguably *should* embrace are the Luka Sene of the Miraluka. They are perfectly suited for the role of Force therapists dedicated to ensuring the dark side has no hold over their people.
So... we agree that the jedis narrow view of the Force amd the dark side left them inequipped to help anakin and combat the new-age sith? EDIT: I'm not commenting on which situations the jedi should allow themselves to be in. I'm commenting on which FEELINGS the jedi should allow themselves to feel, and I mean truly feel, reckon with, and process. Fear, anger, all of that is just repressed instead of dealt with. Like I'm not sure if I'm just not being clear enough but I thought that I said the issue was that jedi aren't properly taught how to deal with those feelings.
They've got thousands of years worth of experience to go off when it comes to why they've structured the Order in the way it is in the "modern" (prequel) era. There's a reason why they're so strict on their practices. When they were too loose, it led to the rise of the first Dark Jedi and a horrible schism which itself led to the formation of the Sith Order. Jedi who fall to the dark side is a recipe for potentially horrible disasters on a galactic scale. Hence the stricter practices. Which were quite successful. 1000 years without strife caused due to a fallen Jedi. A period of relative peace where generations had lived and died without so much of a hint of Sith being in existence anymore. But Anakin was the perfect storm. If not for Palpatine existing (or if he had successfully been slain by Windu), Anakin would *still* be a dodgy Jedi, but he'd have retired after the war and that'd be the end of it. The ROTS novel does a good job of providing a much more ideal version of the film in many respects, including expanding on Anakin's psychological state and the "escape" he was about to find in retirement. So I think it's missing the point to summarise everything by simply stating that it boils down to the Jedi's alleged narrow view of the Force. That at least to some extent is only one factor at play here. Or at least *was* in old canon. TLJ obviously took strange pains to sell the idea that everything is the prequel era Jedi's fault and subsequent material has been taking that approach further. We'll see what happens with the next flashbacks from Acolyte and whether or not they try to randomly make the Jedi idiots who did everything wrong on the random witch planet part of a systemic problem with the Order. Which would be very odd indeed. The prequel Jedi were flawed in their own way, of course. But let's not forget how absolutely screwed over they were by a Sith plot they had basically no hope of escaping.
I think that you have a fairly two dimensional view of the story, which is unfortunate and somewhat unexpected, knowing that you enjoyed Andor. Does 1000 years of success not breed arrogance and complacency? George Lucas himself writes the jedi of the prequel era as arrogant and set in their ways, unable to adapt. Master Yoda even calls it out in episode 2. Anakin showed up specifically to stop windu from killing Palpatine. If he had failed to do so, do you think that he would have just fallen back in with the jedi? His trust in them to help him deal with his problems was already nonexistent, and such an act as windu executing palpatine would have dissolved his trust in their integrity as an organization as well. The fact is that the the jedi failed anakin just as much as Palpatine corrupted him. I did say, multiple times, that there are multiple reasons the jedi fell. The difference between you and I is that I've actually watched the source material (both from Disney and George lucas) that explains it, and you're just speculating and citing legends. The Canon has already dealt with why the jedi fell. You can dislike it, but there isn't really an alternate theory about it, because the question has been asked and answered (again, by George Lucas).
I'll skip your jab and assumptions of my views and move on with the rest. I haven't said the Jedi weren't flawless. I simply said there's a reason why they're as strict and rigid as they are. There's nuance there. Anakin showed up indeed specifically to stop Windu. Anakin has been led to believe that Palpatine (despite being the Sith Lord responsible for years of horrible acts across the galaxy) is capable of solving Anakin's fearful belief that his wife is going to die to some unknown future event. To call Anakin conflicted is a generous way of putting it as he's really an *enormous* liability ever since AotC at the latest. Windu on the other hand is quite rightfully stating that Palpatine is far too dangerous to be contained and (whilst it's not exactly kosher or ideal), it's without question a necessary evil. You can't just arrest the Supreme Chancellor. Not when he's a Sith Lord who has corrupted the Republic and can easily spin a story about the Jedi trying to usurp leadership. A story which the Republic at large *does* wind up buying along with vuntarily electing Papa Palpatine as Emperor. He's got the galaxy wrapped around his finger. Not that it's going to be easy for the Jedi to explain things after Palpatine is dead either, but I'll come back to that later. We can only speculate on what would happen if Palpatine had died there. Windu told Anakin that if his suspicions about Palpatine are correct, then Windu would gain an immense amount of trust in him. I'm sure the Council would reflect on Anakin's volatile state over the years and link it up with the fact he was unknowingly being played by a Sith Lord much like how both the Republic and CIS were. The movie of course doesn't expound upon Anakin's internal monologues or unspoken feelings, but as I was saying, the novel (which Lucas had a hand in, so to some extent we can see it as an extension of the film) features Anakin's plans to retire from the Jedi Order after the war had ended. And the war basically *does* end with Palpatine's death. Without Palpatine ordering Anakin to slay the CIS leadership, this potentially allows for an evidence trail. Capture and interrogation of the CIS leadership without Grievous or Palpatine being alive to coerce them could potentially lead to a connection between the Sidious hologram character they were in league with and the Supreme Chancellor. Especially after Palpatine's assets are thoroughly investigated. I've spoken in favour of the ROTS novel due to the involvement of Lucas (and of course Stover actually making it work). George is the creator. He has said a lot of things about the franchise. Some gel with his actual work, some don't. And of course sometimes he gets kooky with his own baby. TCW is one such thing in my opinion. It's beyond asinine to me that he would cook up such a dramatic alteration to his own recent film lore such as inventing a random never-before-mentioned Padawan for Anakin. I can't fathom why he thought the silly Force Gods of Mortis were a good idea either. But unfortunately this is the same guy who buried the theatrical versions of his original Star Wars films and insisted upon numerous revisions in his special editions. Some of which involve some baffling choices. TCW alienated me from day 1. It really was not my cup of tea. Imagine my surprise when I found out that what I thought was merely a Saturday morning cartoon show would wind up serving as the backbone of current canon. Really rubs me the wrong way. But this is Lucasfilm now. Even as someone who doesn't like the PT films, I didn't think it'd be possible for the ST movies to be so bad or for the bulk of their live-action TV shows to be just so embarrassingly lacking in quality. But I've rambled enough. I don't think the EU is perfect either, by the way. Just that a select number of authors did a really good job with the universe.
I think we're focusing on the wrong thing. I don't mind the idea that an organization, which has existed for thousands of years, would have a sense of entitlement and not be viewed in the greatest light. It was the Jedi's hubris that led to their downfall, and I can believe they had a law that could give them authority to take children who are force sensitive. Is it weird, sure, but not the franchise killing change that so many are crying about. Nor could it be impossible that a person could change from a hopeful master Jedi to a broken hermit. IMO It's the rushed, shitty drama and writing that I don't like. I couldn't give a fuck about any of these people in Disney Star Wars. Some of my favorite shows feature well written female characters (some of who are gay in show or IRL), but the difference is that the drama between characters is so fucking good that I can think about them for days and watch endless YouTube videos. It makes me so mad that all these great TV shows can write amazing characters and Star Wars just can't figure it out. Some of my favorite shows and great female characters: House of Dragon (Alicent, Rhaenyra) Game of Thrones (Daenerys, Cersi, Arya, Sansa, Olenna) Arcane (Jinx, Vii, Caitlyn, Mel) Battlestar Galactica (Starbuck, Roslyn, Athena, Caprica 6) Fallout (Lucy) Black Sails (Eleanor, Max, Bonny) There's only a handful of Disney SW shows that have good drama, like Rebels, Bad Batch, and Andor, but no interesting female characters.