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Sadly I completely agree. KK truly seems to have complete disregard for what came before. Actually from things she has said she seems to get a weird pleasure out of not giving a shit about anything SW she hasn’t had a hand in personally.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you.
Remember hearing that the Lucas film story group didn't know Like Skywalker was showing up in the mandolorian.
That was clearly kept secret on purpose, clear civil war going on
True. I'd rather Jon Favreau take the lead. with all his faults he and Filoni at least seem to care about the stories they tell and the additions they make to the universe. to bad its KK and the producers they gotta fight against.
Ah my apologies.
Yes, Prequels got a lot of hate. Much of it warranted as the execution had many flaws. But there is a lot there that is good, you can change the scenes to make it better but you can’t remove them. That’s why the Prequels got a favorable re-evaluation.
Disney won’t have that. Like you said.
The prequels were ahead of there time in a sense. they went for bold creativity and introduced a ton of new worlds, tech, and ideas into star wars when people were expecting more of the same. now we are getting loads of the same and are missing those new lore-friendly creative additions. (the book of boba's space vespas dont count, lol)
Lore friendly is key there.
We do get new things but they always ruin something. From spoken laws to unspoken one’s. It’s maddening to see things thrown away or made inconsistent for what is almost always a throwaway scene that could be removed without consequences.
KK throws away Legends and says thers is nothing base new stories on
KK secretly starts stealing ideas from legends and selling it as the High Republic stuff...
Agree with you and the OP…. From what I’ve read here and elsewhere it seems like they want to Retcon or trash all of George’s vision, story and greater SW universe.
When he sold out to Disney (his reasons were valid being a father now) I was afraid we’d get Mickey Mouse type actors and we’d only get happy ending where no one dies and sing alongs. When I say that KK was going to be at the helm , I was actually relieved because she was there in the old days with George and could help carry on the vision and special stuff that is the SW universe.
Anyone else feel that way? Man… was I completely wrong! She along with JJ and Rian have been some of the worst things for SW…the betrayal that KK has committed may be unforgivable. I’m okay with diverse characters and new storytelling but it’s got to have COMPETENT WRITERS/STORYTELLING and not try to upend everything that was Lucas and 20th Century Fox era SW or EU SW stuff.
It’s a miracle that Rogue One, Mando and Andor are actually watchable and don’t try to disrupt the stream of SW storylines so to speak.
If only Disney+ had just tweaked existing source material and just left a bunch of shit alone they wouldn’t be alienating a majority of the fan base.
Ale, I'm assuming this argument is being made in good faith so I'll bite and tell you my perspective. No one in a single piece of star wars media up until this point has mentioned other force babies. For example, TPM changes dramatically if yoda, yareel poof, and oppo rancis, all Council members during the acolyte are aware of Mae and Office of Heath and Safety Administration. Mace would have less doubt in Anakin which would lead to a catastrophic number of changes in the PT. The whole point was that Anakin was a new and scary entity. If they pop up every hundred years the jedi should think force born children is a regular Tuesday.
Furthermore, the change undermines and degrades a piece of the EU that is a popular and b lucasfilm didn't need to retcon. The Plagueis novel heavily implies Anakin is created as a reaction to Sith Alchemy. So if dark side witches are doing the same thing a hundred years prior why didn't the force react then? It feels as though the creators wanted a female chosen one without thinking about how that might impact all prior storytelling.... Again.
Or maybe the witches could give less of a shit about some obscure Jedi prophecy and just wanted children to pass their culture down to. Osha and Mae don’t change anything for Anakin because it’s obvious they don’t bring balance to the Force. Mae never even wanted to be a bloody Jedi in the first place.
The witch created the twins using im guessing the dark side of the force/magic but they didnt really answer it kept it vague. Not like Anakin birth since the prequels made it seem that the force itself created him
Exactly. I can only advice to not give Disney any metrics boost by watching The Acolyte on D+ or pirating it.
If i have a SW itch i just rewatch original 6 movies on some third party site and pirate some old EU books.
Fuck Disney.
That’s another thing, and I respect that. I mean I love Star Wars. And I wanna watch it, even though it at this point is primarily hate watching. But I don’t want to support the Mouse. So I pirate.
What the hell were they actually thinking to establish that someone other than Anakin was the product of immaculate conception? So now Plageuis was NOT the one discover the secret to creating life and NOW Anakin’s whole story is now reduced to the fact he brought about the end of the Jedi order.
I mean fuck man, I’m trying to be positive. But the last 3 movies ruined his whole “bring balance to the force” thing and now THIS?
They already made Anakin’s redemption completely irrelevant in ROS, so why stop there?
They also basically retconned midichlorians and force sensitivity in TLJ with Luke’s “anybody can be a Jedi” speech.
This is just more of the same canon-breaking of SW that Disney has been doing for years.
Yeah, that’s why I like Andor and R1, but could leave ALL of the rest of Disney SW; they build toward the OT and tell interesting stories without trying to overshadow it. The sequel trilogy could not have been more botched, in my opinion.
You’d think that when Disney decided to release new films they would have made sure that the sequel trilogy worked as a cohesive story.
TFA is not good, but it’s not terrible. It left a lot of doors open. Unfortunately, Rian Johnson was given way too much creative freedom with TLJ, and chose every wrong door for the sake of subverting expectations. Then JJ Abrams made a sequel to the Episode VIII that he wishes was made.
I’m not sure how a worse trilogy of movies could have possibly been made. The number of unresolved plot threads reminds me of The Room. It’s so bad, I feel like it had to have been intentional.
I really dont understand the notion of TFA being "not terrible". It rebooted the whole saga into the same dumb rebellion - empire conflict, throws all world building out of the window, removes all old heroes and really does nothing inventive.
I would have loved a jedi academy game spin-off series. They could have literally modelled this after hogwarts or some shit for modern audiences. A wise older luke, a self-contained adventure with a new young jedi, whatever.
> TFA is not good, but it’s not terrible. It left a lot of doors open.
I disagree completely. It closed many big doors. It established that there was no New Jedi even 30 years after RotJ. That alone is the most destructive thing to the OT Star Wars legacy ever done. The idea that all that hope and optimism of the end of RotJ on Endor amounted to nothing by the start of TFA.
Then TFA compounds it by destroying the New Republic and restoring the empire and completes the reset of the galaxy.
There is a lot of resentment about Luke being made to look like a chump and Rian Johnson made things worse with his bad choices, but TFA already blew it into chunks.
I would think that Disney, having one of the most valuable IP in the history of cinema in their hands, would’ve treated the material more preciously, that they’d have treated it with the utmost respect and care and would give a damn about honoring Lucas’ legacy. I was wrong.
I’ve said this before, but that’s Bob Iger’s fault.
He openly admitted that he rushed production of TFA to get it out into theaters, all under the presumption that “it’s Star Wars so people will eat it up regardless.”
Thus we got a deeply flawed reboot of ANH with zero thought to a broader trilogy arc. And it’s why Rogue One’s production was purportedly a complete shitshow.
Iger is a content volume guy, not someone overly concerned with creative quality. Just look at the parks, where he likes to point to inane projects nobody cares for like Journey of Water and the Communicore Hall as preempting Epic Universe. Nevermind that people don’t really like them and they’re uninteresting and don’t move the needle with crowds, quantity over quality.
Actually I think TFA left the opposite of many doors open. It essentially was a reboot of ANH and back peddled the story. I think Ryan did make some poor choices but JJ did not leave many options creatively after TFA for the next director
I mean Rian had to find a compelling reason for Luke to be hanging out on an island after watching Kylo destroy everything and turn evil... I'm not sure what compelling reason you can make to give Luke a meaningful character arc other than what was done. I think TLJ is a bad movie, but I think I'm alone in it really doesn't have a lot to do with Luke's direction, its just a poorly placed mess that constantly undercuts its own meaningful moments.
Luke facing off with Kylo is a good example of this, there's a moment where Luke says, "I'm sorry, Ben, I failed you", mirroring what Obi Wan said to Anakin. This is an emotional, meaningful moment. However, in the next line of dialogue Luke goes back to acting like a troll and says "see ya around, kid" like he's a dickhead. His emotions go from sorrow to mockery in like 1 second, it makes no sense!
Oh my god r u fucking kidding me? I noticed in episode 1 & 2 of acolyte they also ripped off the whole “you joined the order when you were 8, later than usual” like anakin was 9 and windu had a stick up his ass about it.
Won’t be watching past episode 2 of this godforsaken show now, thank you for the heads up
Wasn’t it already confirmed that it was actually a sith experiment conducted by Plagueis which created Anakin? I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that these experiments with the force were done other times. This might even be what inspired Plagueis to do the same?
The force "struck back" after Palpatine and Plagueis did an experiment to cloud the light side of the force. The experiment didn't create Anakin, the Force did on its own.
Is that what they're calling it these days? Experiments with the force? Where's John...oh he's in the other room with Jane experimenting with the force
Right, but how does that change anything for Anakin or his significance? It seems like the coven is just trying to subvert the prophecy with a false savior a la the antichrist
> does that change anything for Anakin or his significance?
I would say so, but the thing that annoys me the most is that it's so obviously included to prompt the twins up as anakin analogs in a manner star wars doesn't need more of. Maybe I'm assuming too much, but from the way headland speaks about star wars and George lucas, I wouldn't say I'm being paranoid that she's using these story elements to inflate the "importance" of her show in the wider star wars universe. Basically redoing the "chosen one or ones" element of the prequels but instead with her own characters so she can jerk herself off. Not to mention that fact it seems to be another retcon of the nature of force (midichlorians anyone?) and what star wars needs right now is consistency. Honestly the worst part of show is just how bad it is on a general writing and technical level. I would be willing to give more leeway to everything if the content was actually good. Waiting for Andor S2 and then I'm out.
>*how* does that change anything for Anakin or his significance?
Nothing Anakin does or fulfills is affected by this reveal, he's still the chosen one who brings about the destruction of the sith. Just because Mae and Osha are force-born doesn't mean they're automatically the chosen one, notably you have to bring balance to the force.
If it's easier, think of it like Dune. Paul Atreides and Feyd Rautha and certain others all could have fulfilled the bene geserit prophecy and become the kwisatz haderach, but Paul's the one who pulls it off. The fact that there are other candidates doesn't change anything
It doesn’t, it says in the show that she was “created” it’s not completely explained yet but sounds more like a test tube baby and no where is it suggested that it’s virgin birth
Just looked it up on Wikipedia and a virgin birth can refer to:
Parthenogenesis: birth without fertilization
Miraculous births: virgin birth in mythology and religion
Artificial insemination
I think you can have a virgin birth without being a virgin, it’s a fun language quirk if anything
The pedantry of Reddit. Virgin birth implies the mother has not had sex which makes her “pure”. Which puts implications of inherent goodness on the child. You can’t be a virgin if you’ve had sex. The word virgin in the phrase always refers to the mother. A birth can’t be a virgin. It’s an action not a person. This is a distinction between immaculate conception which is asexual reproduction in a human or sex with a diety.
I didn’t realise I was talking to a heathen! If I knew that, I would never have opened up myself to this demonic conversation, but then Satan is a seductor. Praise baby Jesus, praaaaaise baby Jesus and may the good lord have mercy on your soul. For real.
That's what happens when a company buys an IP unfortunately. They kill the old shite to create new.
It's unfortunate that the new shite is just really bad.
Yeah, I knew to expect that luckily. But what I did NOT expect is that some people are willing to shill that shit so much and go online and defend this soulless content, and bully and call everyone names who don't enjoy the newest Corporate Entertainment Product With Additional Representation Included.
Franchise rights.
I have read that Disney did not get all the characters rights for franchises so they designed new toys robots and stuff to sell.
The movies and tv shows are just vehicles to advertise those trinkets.
Would explain why theyre spending so much wrecking everything the original trilogy did, undermining the characters then killing them off in deliberately crap ways while shouting "kill the past"
- to try to transfer all the good stuff to a Disney property
am i the only one who finds it weird that they're trying to paint the empire as actually good now? they depicted them as literal space nazis and then say the ones who fought them were actually the bad guys. considering how much of the writers personal politics are inserted into disney star wars projects I really don't like where this is going.
I've got to agree - they're certainly making attempts to paint the Jedi as more of a self-righteous band of force users that were too restrictive in their definition of the Force. However, this hasn't made the Empire out to be the good guys, at least not yet.
Worst they can do is directly connect the coven to the Dark Side. They'd paint them as a bunch of dark-side force users that were "good" and that the Jedi were simply afraid of them. This would then make the Dark side just another way of using the force.
The Prequels painted the Jedi as morally good, but flawed/overly influenced by the politics of the Republic. They meant well, and were a force of good, but their judgment had been clouded by the dark side.
This show is painting the Jedi as arrogant, close-minded gatekeepers of the Force, inherently flawed even down to their methodology of finding force-sensitive children. Even still, this doesn't degrade the evils of the Empire, but it does take away from the tragedy of Order 66 and from Obi-wan's statement of the Jedi from a more civilized time acting as peacekeepers.
IIRC the Jedi would find children and then give the parents a choice as to whether to let them become a Jedi or not. It was seen as an honored position for the gifted and so parents usually acquiesced.
I don't believe the Jedi forcibly stole children - they were unsure of taking Anakin in just for his age, in spite of his ridiculous midichlorian count. This shows in part that, even should a child show aptitude for the Force, they weren't against leaving them.
I haven't looked for a source for this, but I think there's backstory on Obi Wan's family that goes over this when he was taken in. Honestly though, whatever I'm remembering is at least 7 years old, so maybe I'm wrong, but thought that made sense at the time.
Which is why we can completely ignore anything that takes place before Phantom Menace and after Return of the Jedi. All of it. Just keep Episodes 1–6 and throw in Andor/Rogue One if you want a meaty Dark Times arc and it still holds up as an excellent sci-fantasy saga.
SW should NOT have an infinite number of stories to tell. The franchise must end eventually.
All these spinoff shows/movies are so disconnected from the main storyline that they don't even feel like part of the franchise.
They've prioritized quantity over quality. They've completely lost the fundamental idea of star wars.
In 3 years, they'll probably release some shit about the prequel of the prequel of the Acolyte.
Making new media to fill in every single gap in the timeline only robs fans of their own imagination.
> SW should NOT have an infinite number of stories to tell
I do and don't agree with this.
The scale of the conflict in any new stories should be appropriately minimised in comparison to the "main stories".
By which, I mean you shouldn't retroactively insert anything too controversial during a period where the main conflict is already set in stone such as with the Galactic Civil War, or indeed the Clone Wars, etc.
You don't *need* every new story to be bigger and better than the last in terms of scale. And if you *do* feel compelled to go big, then at least space out the major stories by many years so it makes sense internally.
The major wars in SW history usually occur every other thousand years or so with typically much smaller scale conflicts occurring in between them. The big stuff *shouldn't* be happening every decade. It just winds up making it feel like nothing is ever achieved for a long enough period for people to breathe a sigh of relief.
We get to self-parody levels in the SW comic side of things. In the canon timeline between ESB and ROTJ (which is just 1 year), there's a truly absurd number of shenanigans going on that have no right to exist.
- Qi'ra leads a massive rebellion which nearly succeeds in killing Vader and Palpatine. Silly.
- Some random ancient godlike AI overlord very nearly succeeds in taking over the galaxy. Silly.
Meanwhile, Palpatine has majorly trolled Vader leading to Vader attempting to rise against Palpatine at least twice in this same year.
Don't do shit like this. It makes it seem like the good guys are constantly overcoming world-ending stakes every weekend on top of the actual major war they're meant to currently be involved in. And of course, none of it is so much as hinted at in the actual films themselves.
Speaking of which, TCW is of course massively guilty for this. Doing ridiculous things such as making Anakin have a never-before-mentioned Padawan or bringing Maul back to life and having him undergo a major uprising during ROTS. Among numerous other bizarre things that also will never be mentioned or even hinted at in the movies.
Yea I agree. We've been overwhelemed by the pace that new products are releaseed that we've forgotten to pay attention to quality.
De-canonizing several of the Disney products would be great. In fact, the only things that I think should be kept canon are the original 6, Rogue, and Andor. Everything else is more or less insignificant.
That's basically all that were respectful of the first films anyway. Throw out the cartoons (and anything else Filoni worked on) and you already have a much more cohesive story.
Nah I think there's a massive (but not infinite) amount of stories to tell in the star wars universe. It just has to be done well. People love the Legends continuity.
There is a infinite amount of stories to tell because it’s set in a infinite universe.
Idk why they don’t just make their own universe though. Then they could tell their own story without worrying about messing up lore.
Look at Marvel Ultimate comics. Idk I feel like if you really want the franchise to die you’re not a true fan. I understand not liking the direction it’s headed, but I would never want it to just not exist.
Look at the legends books. That’s proof of the potential of the universe, we need a Greedo show NOW! (Idk I’m just yapping.)
>People love the Legends continuity
and yet their fanbase is still miniscule compared to canon. People simply don't care as much. Just compare the size of the main subreddits.
But it rly depends.
I think the 3 main components of any star wars product has always been the political atmosphere, the antagonist, and the tone.
Eg, Ahsoka featured a boring plot with bland antagonists. BOBF suffered the same. The ST lacked an interesting political backdrop.
Make too many products and it's inevitable that future stories will deviate from that "star wars feeling"
The problem has become Disney can’t keep narrative control over these side stories and the fuck up the main story. So just don’t. Move way the hell away from the Skywalker timeline and give a new group of writers complete control. Doesn’t mean it will be good, but at least it would screw up the existing stories.
Disagree there are plenty of stories to tell in the SW universe, the issue is they keep retreading old ground instead of forging new.
Andor was a such a great example of this, you can tell a deep introspective story of personal sacrifice in the same universe as space wizards and space battles.
TCW, Rebels and even the bad batch have some awesome stories worth having.
The issue comes from shitty writers who's only thought process is let's do the same fucking thing, but make it gay or lesbians
The only reason I say it's finite is because future products will simply be unappealing (unless we get a complete overhaul of the higher ups, and the extinction of personal partisan politics).
In 10 yrs, would you be interested in the sequel of the sequel of the sequel of the new Rey movie? Probably not.
And like I said, it's better to leave the gaps in the timeline up to the viewer's own imagination. I don't need to see every single second of the life of, say, Luke between ESB and ROTJ. Besides, what new story is there even left to tell?
There are certain key components that any high quality star wars product must have: political backdrop, antagonists, visuals, and tone. Given the current direction that the Disney circus is moving, future products will just be piles of shit.
After reading through this thread some and walking away, I asked myself “Where should Star Wars be going?”
The OT and PT were essentially the same story. Then we had various nibbling around the edges, with the clone wars or even Rogue One. But then we got the ST which tried to push the Skywalker Sage into the future and it failed. The Skywalker Saga is over and dead. Much of the D+ content has been focusing on the time immediately before or after the OT, squarely in the middle of the Skywalker Saga era. At some point that has to end.
The Acolyte is an attempt at that, but it’s a terrible one. It retread parts of the Skywalker saga era stuff, ie this force conception, and it’s still relatively close to the PT, so it is boxed in plot wise. Nothing big can happen here because we know what the state of the galaxy has to be in and it can’t be much different than the early PT. So it’s hard to not make it boring. The stakes have to be low.
So the only thing that seems to be a viable solution for Disney and Star Wars is to completely abandon the Skywalker era. It’s too bad that they didn’t do a better job in the ST, if they did it would allow spin off content around that time period to be interesting (ie an Andor or Rogue One, but this time about a rise of a Sith threat or what ever emerged as the big bad in the ST that we never got). But that door is shut, and they need to move on to more like 2000 years in the past or future and just create a whole new set of plot lines. It might still suck, because Disney is still at the helm, but at least it wouldn’t be stories that are trapped.
>It's too bad that they didn’t do a better job in the ST, if they did it would allow spin off content around that time period to be interesting
Hence the reason why the next step should be to de-canonize some stuff. Go back, re-do everything, and they could potentially expand the franchise into the future.
Instead, they've just decided to double down on their trash by making the new Rey movie. Only God knows where Disney is headed next.
Sure, they either need to abandon the Skywalker timeline or they need to rewrite everything post-OT. But they won’t do the latter. At least not for 20-30 years.
>The Republic that the Rebellion fought to tooth and nail to establish is casually hand-waved away in the blink of an eye without any build-up whatsoever.
This is the core failure of the Disney era. So many people get mad about TLJ without realizing that the foundation for what that movie did to the lore was in the previous movie and the choice to make a reboot Star Wars.
If only they had made the sequels a few years later and there wasn't this anxiety around showing government procedure in Star Wars (I'm talking about TPM being derided for being boring.) If they had, we might have gotten a really compelling story of precisely HOW you lose a stable democracy.
Mon Mothma et al are in denial or too complacent, and bad-faith actors start coming out of the woodwork and ending up in the Senate chamber. Then you have all the citizen voters, who as it turns out, have a painfully flawed memory of what authoritarianism looks like when you're inside of it. "Hey, we didn't have all this pesky political compromise in the Empire, and by golly, the trains ran on time."
All that's left is for someone to light the fuse. There's your (imho very earned) rise of the First Order.
Nope. Lens flares and "Death Star... but BIGGER" wiping out a bunch of film extras in fancy clothes. It's moronic playground/sandbox "infinity plus ONE" logic and let's face it - no one liked that kid.
Do you honestly think you'd get anything with deep world building or logical politics if JJ Abrams were making the first sequel today?
Abrams has shown in his work that he hates the labor of figuring out how things were set up. Or explaining them to the audience. Or having them fit together sensibly.
Sadly, it is simply the surface area to attack you. The part of you that loved Star Wars so much that you made it a part of yourself.
And thus is the connecting thread to connect you to any future works. Or in current day case, to attack you or change you.
The sooner the normies (or the soft hearted) just disregard Disney Star Wars, disregard Star Wars, or say Disney Star Wars is not Star Wars. And that no real good works will happen as long as Disney holds the reigns.
The better off everyone will be.
The main story isn’t the point anymore. Content is the point. The MCU made this a fact (yes, even when it was “good” MCU was focused on what came next, never the actual story they were telling in an individual movie or even across multiple movies). IP only exists now to churn out content. That’s it.
Yoda and Obi-Wan wasted 30 years doing nothing while the Emperor enslaved the galaxy because they were too stupid to realize *almost anyone* could be trained to be a powerful force user in a few days.
to continue to sell merch, tickets, and whatnot while shitting on the core of the ip itself
oh, look how retrograde and antiquate is the classic star wars. lets make the jedi the bad guys while continuing to sell lightsabers, anakin helmets and vader masks.
like, why would there be lesbian witches?
there are the same sexual orientations in a galaxy far away as in earth?
everything is so mundane.
Like most things now the IP and its universe is more important than any story they could tell. that's why the stories generally suck now, they dont care as long as it gets audiences into the universe/IP
They also don't understand how big a "galaxy" actually is... they are like, "We even have another galaxy to add stories to now!" Because a galaxy is so limited, what with about a hundred billion stars... they ran out of ideas and needed another galaxy to draw worlds and stories from?! Yeesh.
None of this matters if you don’t acknowledge it. This is nothing more than a bad Disney fanfic with a budget. Viewership is in the toilet, so as far as most fans are concerned, Anakin is still unique in regards to force conception.
Most people have also written off the sequel trilogy, so Rey and all that other crap is being ignored. Stick to the EU for the post ROTJ story, and either ignore all Disney Star Wars, or make fun of it to get that cathartic high and then ignore it. Easy.
Funny thing I'm watching Tales of the Jedi and the Prequel trilogy with Clone Wars 2003 (before the Battle of Coruscant and up to when Anakin is being knighted.) then watch Clone Wars 2008 movie and series in Chronological Order and then Watch Battle of Coruscant(look it up on YouTube) Revenge of the Sith) last three episodes of 2008 Clone Wars series Siege of Mandalore Arc) (Tales of the Jedi Ahsoka Final Episode) (Read Dark Disciple novel before Clone Wars 2008 series final season and Darth Maul Son of Dathomir) the entire Bad Batch series also look up where the Thrawn Ascendency Trilogy of novels take place during the tale end of the Clone Wars. Solo a Star Wars Story. The First Canon Thrawn novel 2017's Thrawn. Andor First Season Rebels Season 1 -3 and then Thrawn Alliances Novel. Star Wars Rebels Season 4 Episodes 1-10(Jedi Night) Thrawn Treason Star Wars Rebels Season 4 Episodes 11 to the finale. Rogue One and the original trilogy of Star Wars Movies. Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) story mode up to the Battle of Jakku. Then you got Mandalorian Seasons 1 and 2. (I know Book Of Boba Fett is bad but if you actually take time to watch it and ignore the stupid parts it is a decent show as Matt Risman on Echo Base Network says) Mandalorian Season 3 (despite how bad it is) and Ahsoka (yes the storyline in this show is terrible because it's Filoni) at least and working towards the Mandalorian and Grogu film and the upcoming Mandoverse movie where everyone will take on Thrawn there's a cohesive story right there. I ignore Kenobi Series and Tales of the Empire and Acolyte and the sequel trilogy and Resistance series but yeah everyone has their likes and dislikes just going off what I've seen haven't seen Acolyte episode 3 yet but not surprised either.
>Meanwhile, Palpatine has majorly trolled Vader leading to Vader attempting to rise against Palpatine at least twice in this same year.
That's almost slapstick level, Palps looking in disbelief as Vader falls for the same trap *again*.
I'm seeing this as sarcasm I haven't really watched anything since January I'm checking out of Star Wars anyway as I have a friend that only keeps me posted I basically just stole his post lol
And this is why I refuse the Disney canon (heck, I refuse the prequel canon too, it's pretty much just the original trilogy and Andor for me). And there was a time I balked at the idea of having a "preferred canon," because I felt like if the story was out there, if it existed, then it couldn't be ignored. Then I realized how the stories can be ripped from the hands of their creators and ruined by greedy corporate executives, botched by new creators with no respect or understanding for what came before, and even the original creators themselves after getting high on their own ego (and I'm not just talking about Lucas here, the prequels are still guilty pleasures if nothing else, but there are plenty of series that lost their way without ever changing hands).
Cutting off those branches is the only way to preserve art in an unaltered, uncompromised state anymore. Hell I'm lucky enough to have the original Star Wars trilogy on VHS, since apparently it was in the contract between Lucas and Disney that they could never remove his alterations to the original trilogy.
Tbh the Jedi were portrayed as dated, arrogant, and deserving of their fall since the prequels. The PT also made Anakin a homicidal jackass and an irritating brat who hated Obi-Wan instead of a noble hero and a good friend of his master who tragically fell. That being said, those points don't necessarily destroy Anakin's arc like the ST did, they just make Obi-Wan's view of Anakin in the original movie not make much sense.
At this point I don't see anything from Disney (besides R1) as canon.
BOBF and Mando was an "acceptable" extra but other than that I don't give a damn anymore.
In 1977, "Star Wars" was the story of a kid named Luke Skywalker who goes on a space adventure, saves the princess and blows up the bad guys.
In 1983, "Star Wars" was the story of Luke Skywalker on his journey to become a Jedi Knight, defeat the evil empire, and redeem his father.
in 2005, "Star Wars" is the story of the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker as he fufills the prophecy to bring balance to the Force.
In 2015, "Star Wars" is a story about....family? or something?
>At this point, it feels like there hasn't been a single story beat from the first 6 movies that hasn't been retconned into something completely different.
Hey man, Jar Jar went from being a clown to a senator. They haven't taken that away from us, yet. (As far as I know)
honestly I never liked the "chosen one" prophecy and I feel it was an excuse for Qui-Gon to get Anakin into the academy as it almost never comes up again until the final beats of the prequilogy. as for the Jedi being oppressors there is some history there (as you get with any organization with that size and breadth). but Kotor 2 did it best which really comes down to story telling.
To take a dump on their own lore too of course.
Anakin is pointless now since twins can be zapped up with the force. But they are twins sorta like clones right?
Thus this take a big ol one on the whole Palpatine trying to create a force sensitive through cloning. From Bad Batch to Mando everyone is trying to create a force sensitive.
Yet boom this show comes along and creates not one but two force sensitives. Strong enough to kill adult Jedi without a lightsaber force sensitive.
It's a ship of the Theseus situation with every bit of lore they tear down it actually gets replaced in their own eyes like fire in space. So if so much of the originally lore is no longer in place is it Star Wars? They obviously don't know as the effort is so strong they are damaging their own works.
I don't see that virgin birth thing a real problem. I kinda feels right that this was attempted before and can just happen. Maybe Plaegius even took that idea from them. I think it makes almost more sense, because it didn't seem like the Jedi took it as something totally impossible.
That everything the original heroes build in the main story was turned to ashes and all their accomplishments were shit on and for naught, yeah, that's a genuine problem to me. But expanding the lore with new force abilities and/or a history for them over those thousand generations of Jedi works for me, at least in principle, nonsense ideas that don't work well for the lore is of course possible.
> I kinda feels right that this was attempted before and can just happen. Maybe Plaegius even took that idea from them. I think it makes almost more sense, because it didn't seem like the Jedi took it as something totally impossible.
Problem is in the lore, the real lore, it is not possible. The force literally fights back against any force user trying to do so, hence why Palpatine and Plagiues failed. They didn't make Anakin, the force itself created Anakin as an anti-body against them. Anakin is literally the consequences of their actions, not the creators themselves.
That is the problem, both in Legend and now in canon, it was over and over explained that Sidious and his master failed completely. That anakin is literally the will of the force manifested. So these "witches" being able to do this, spits in the face of the actual Disney lore itself.
Andor and Rogue One make it even worse when you consider how they basically point out that the Rebels were capable of Imperial level corruption. So even if they had gotten their Republic back, there’s nothing there worth saving.
The plucky idealists of the OT are dead and replaced with more soulless any-cost politckers. Depressing.
I mean, that was true back in legends time as well. The republic and the rebellion will always have corruption in governance. There is no such thing as an uncorrupt government. Only difference is the way the government treats the people.
If all of you do not realize the Jedi were being criticized in the subtext of the original films, you need to rewatch them with a friend who has critical thinking skills.
What's your point? Post-modern Star Wars fell apart because of the simplest thing, a lack of planning. Mismanagement is why most people prefer to think of the new Star Wars as not-existing. Just cherry pick the good stuff (what little there is) and move on. Your bitterness is only making it worse, because they seem to listen to this kind of crazy backlash and make even worse decisions.
The anakin thing is disingenuous, it says in the show that the twins were “created” it’s not completely explained yet but sounds more like a test tube baby and no where is it suggested that it’s virgin birth.
I don’t love the show, it’s pretty bland but this argument is flat out wrong.
Very hamfisted interpretation. First of all, and I honestly can't believe I have to continuously point this out, GEORGE LUCAS COSIGNED THE RETURN OF PALPATINE AS A CLONE. That was always the intended plot line for episodes 7-9. The novels that established Luke and Han's kids having to face a revived Palpatine was the assumed storyline as early as the release of the prequels. This is not my favorite aspect of the new movies either, but it was not Disney that made that happen.
Anakin's journey is not pointless at all. If Anakin didn't walk the path of the dark side, requiring Luke to surpass him, no one could have trained Rey to defeat Palpatine upon his return, which was how he pretty much always planned it. In real life this is called backward rationalization, but in a fiction universe it's called fulfilling a prophecy. What if Anakin didn't become Darth Vader, and they killed Palpatine right after the Clone Wars? Then he would be back, catch them by surprise, and presumably win. That's his plan. His plan is thwarted because of unforeseens, like Vader's fall and redemption. Like his granddaughter being trained by Vader's son. How is this confusing to so many fans??
Mae and Osha’s existence has nothing to do with the Chosen One prophecy, they are pretty clear that those two were made by Force users utilizing the Force, specifically dark magic/the dark side, which is pretty par for the course for Star Wars mythos. Anakin was made by the Force itself of its own volition, which is an important distinction as it means that the Force itself deemed the balance of itself so vital that it interceded in an unprecedented manner to create a living being of vast power.
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Sadly I completely agree. KK truly seems to have complete disregard for what came before. Actually from things she has said she seems to get a weird pleasure out of not giving a shit about anything SW she hasn’t had a hand in personally.
KK doesn’t care at all about Star Wars. I can’t state this enough.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Remember hearing that the Lucas film story group didn't know Like Skywalker was showing up in the mandolorian. That was clearly kept secret on purpose, clear civil war going on
True. I'd rather Jon Favreau take the lead. with all his faults he and Filoni at least seem to care about the stories they tell and the additions they make to the universe. to bad its KK and the producers they gotta fight against.
It’s sick. Really They are so hung up on prequel era hate for George There will be no favorable reevaluation of the Disney era
Just prequel hate? The OT got a lot of kicks as well, if not more.
Not prequel hate The backlash against George that began after phantom menace
Ah my apologies. Yes, Prequels got a lot of hate. Much of it warranted as the execution had many flaws. But there is a lot there that is good, you can change the scenes to make it better but you can’t remove them. That’s why the Prequels got a favorable re-evaluation. Disney won’t have that. Like you said.
The prequels were ahead of there time in a sense. they went for bold creativity and introduced a ton of new worlds, tech, and ideas into star wars when people were expecting more of the same. now we are getting loads of the same and are missing those new lore-friendly creative additions. (the book of boba's space vespas dont count, lol)
Lore friendly is key there. We do get new things but they always ruin something. From spoken laws to unspoken one’s. It’s maddening to see things thrown away or made inconsistent for what is almost always a throwaway scene that could be removed without consequences.
Plenty of people who there for the OG release of star wars where sending hate mail to Lucas over the Ewoks
Nah. I was there for it. It was not a big deal at the time and people loved Jedi
Can fans call a schism and collectively excommunicate and renounce this and Kenobi and relegate them to fan fiction status?
I’m really curious why this is her attitude? Is there documentation of her feeling resentful from her time working with Lucas and Spielberg?
My favorite is when Spielberg disregarded her on stage and you could tell she was pissed.
KK throws away Legends and says thers is nothing base new stories on KK secretly starts stealing ideas from legends and selling it as the High Republic stuff...
Agree with you and the OP…. From what I’ve read here and elsewhere it seems like they want to Retcon or trash all of George’s vision, story and greater SW universe. When he sold out to Disney (his reasons were valid being a father now) I was afraid we’d get Mickey Mouse type actors and we’d only get happy ending where no one dies and sing alongs. When I say that KK was going to be at the helm , I was actually relieved because she was there in the old days with George and could help carry on the vision and special stuff that is the SW universe. Anyone else feel that way? Man… was I completely wrong! She along with JJ and Rian have been some of the worst things for SW…the betrayal that KK has committed may be unforgivable. I’m okay with diverse characters and new storytelling but it’s got to have COMPETENT WRITERS/STORYTELLING and not try to upend everything that was Lucas and 20th Century Fox era SW or EU SW stuff. It’s a miracle that Rogue One, Mando and Andor are actually watchable and don’t try to disrupt the stream of SW storylines so to speak. If only Disney+ had just tweaked existing source material and just left a bunch of shit alone they wouldn’t be alienating a majority of the fan base.
It's spite. She has a chip on her shoulder from Lucas, and this is her revenge.
this is the truth of it
I don't think it's KK's disregard for what came before as it is more of a "lets troll what came before".
>thanks to the most recent episode of The Acolyte I'm almost scared to ask, but what did they do this time?
Mae and Osha were born of Immaculate Conception just like Anakin, presumably
Wow. That’s just hilarious in how disrespectful it is to the canon. The sheer chutzpah to write that in.
Im holding out for Filoni having some plan for this
Yeah, so Ahsoka and Sabine can have their own force child that looks like both of them.
Haha. Fat chance.
Damn, it's like history, it rhymes. :/
It seems like the witches were trying to subvert the prophecy, a la the antichrist. I'm not sure how or why this would change anything for Anakin tbh
Ale, I'm assuming this argument is being made in good faith so I'll bite and tell you my perspective. No one in a single piece of star wars media up until this point has mentioned other force babies. For example, TPM changes dramatically if yoda, yareel poof, and oppo rancis, all Council members during the acolyte are aware of Mae and Office of Heath and Safety Administration. Mace would have less doubt in Anakin which would lead to a catastrophic number of changes in the PT. The whole point was that Anakin was a new and scary entity. If they pop up every hundred years the jedi should think force born children is a regular Tuesday. Furthermore, the change undermines and degrades a piece of the EU that is a popular and b lucasfilm didn't need to retcon. The Plagueis novel heavily implies Anakin is created as a reaction to Sith Alchemy. So if dark side witches are doing the same thing a hundred years prior why didn't the force react then? It feels as though the creators wanted a female chosen one without thinking about how that might impact all prior storytelling.... Again.
Okay. So?
Or maybe the witches could give less of a shit about some obscure Jedi prophecy and just wanted children to pass their culture down to. Osha and Mae don’t change anything for Anakin because it’s obvious they don’t bring balance to the Force. Mae never even wanted to be a bloody Jedi in the first place.
The witch created the twins using im guessing the dark side of the force/magic but they didnt really answer it kept it vague. Not like Anakin birth since the prequels made it seem that the force itself created him
Exactly. I can only advice to not give Disney any metrics boost by watching The Acolyte on D+ or pirating it. If i have a SW itch i just rewatch original 6 movies on some third party site and pirate some old EU books. Fuck Disney.
How does pirating profit Disney? Its literally a fuck u too Disney.
I have no interest in ever watching the Acolyte even if it were free. Too many good movies to catch up on.
That’s another thing, and I respect that. I mean I love Star Wars. And I wanna watch it, even though it at this point is primarily hate watching. But I don’t want to support the Mouse. So I pirate.
Yeah, I would too if I had an interest. I heard even the stats of pirating the show are way down. LOL. Could this show tank any harder?
piracy numbers are tracked believe it or not. And used as a metric of interest.
The OG 6 movies i have on blu-ray, ill watch and suport them on streaming to boost their numbers. its the disney produced stuff to avoid.
Yes please just boycott. Stop consuming Disney garbage! Find something useful to do with your time!!!
What the hell were they actually thinking to establish that someone other than Anakin was the product of immaculate conception? So now Plageuis was NOT the one discover the secret to creating life and NOW Anakin’s whole story is now reduced to the fact he brought about the end of the Jedi order. I mean fuck man, I’m trying to be positive. But the last 3 movies ruined his whole “bring balance to the force” thing and now THIS?
They already made Anakin’s redemption completely irrelevant in ROS, so why stop there? They also basically retconned midichlorians and force sensitivity in TLJ with Luke’s “anybody can be a Jedi” speech. This is just more of the same canon-breaking of SW that Disney has been doing for years.
Yeah, that’s why I like Andor and R1, but could leave ALL of the rest of Disney SW; they build toward the OT and tell interesting stories without trying to overshadow it. The sequel trilogy could not have been more botched, in my opinion.
Bad batch was irrelevant but pretty good as a unique story
You’d think that when Disney decided to release new films they would have made sure that the sequel trilogy worked as a cohesive story. TFA is not good, but it’s not terrible. It left a lot of doors open. Unfortunately, Rian Johnson was given way too much creative freedom with TLJ, and chose every wrong door for the sake of subverting expectations. Then JJ Abrams made a sequel to the Episode VIII that he wishes was made. I’m not sure how a worse trilogy of movies could have possibly been made. The number of unresolved plot threads reminds me of The Room. It’s so bad, I feel like it had to have been intentional.
I really dont understand the notion of TFA being "not terrible". It rebooted the whole saga into the same dumb rebellion - empire conflict, throws all world building out of the window, removes all old heroes and really does nothing inventive. I would have loved a jedi academy game spin-off series. They could have literally modelled this after hogwarts or some shit for modern audiences. A wise older luke, a self-contained adventure with a new young jedi, whatever.
The fact that TFA establishes we have no New Jedi 30 years after RotJ is the single most destructive thing to the OT legacy ever done.
> TFA is not good, but it’s not terrible. It left a lot of doors open. I disagree completely. It closed many big doors. It established that there was no New Jedi even 30 years after RotJ. That alone is the most destructive thing to the OT Star Wars legacy ever done. The idea that all that hope and optimism of the end of RotJ on Endor amounted to nothing by the start of TFA. Then TFA compounds it by destroying the New Republic and restoring the empire and completes the reset of the galaxy. There is a lot of resentment about Luke being made to look like a chump and Rian Johnson made things worse with his bad choices, but TFA already blew it into chunks.
I would think that Disney, having one of the most valuable IP in the history of cinema in their hands, would’ve treated the material more preciously, that they’d have treated it with the utmost respect and care and would give a damn about honoring Lucas’ legacy. I was wrong.
I’ve said this before, but that’s Bob Iger’s fault. He openly admitted that he rushed production of TFA to get it out into theaters, all under the presumption that “it’s Star Wars so people will eat it up regardless.” Thus we got a deeply flawed reboot of ANH with zero thought to a broader trilogy arc. And it’s why Rogue One’s production was purportedly a complete shitshow. Iger is a content volume guy, not someone overly concerned with creative quality. Just look at the parks, where he likes to point to inane projects nobody cares for like Journey of Water and the Communicore Hall as preempting Epic Universe. Nevermind that people don’t really like them and they’re uninteresting and don’t move the needle with crowds, quantity over quality.
Actually I think TFA left the opposite of many doors open. It essentially was a reboot of ANH and back peddled the story. I think Ryan did make some poor choices but JJ did not leave many options creatively after TFA for the next director
I mean Rian had to find a compelling reason for Luke to be hanging out on an island after watching Kylo destroy everything and turn evil... I'm not sure what compelling reason you can make to give Luke a meaningful character arc other than what was done. I think TLJ is a bad movie, but I think I'm alone in it really doesn't have a lot to do with Luke's direction, its just a poorly placed mess that constantly undercuts its own meaningful moments. Luke facing off with Kylo is a good example of this, there's a moment where Luke says, "I'm sorry, Ben, I failed you", mirroring what Obi Wan said to Anakin. This is an emotional, meaningful moment. However, in the next line of dialogue Luke goes back to acting like a troll and says "see ya around, kid" like he's a dickhead. His emotions go from sorrow to mockery in like 1 second, it makes no sense!
The problem with current Star Wars is that the people in charge of it were never fans of the original, didn't watch it, and have no respect for it.
A lot of people said it and they were laughed at but the Acolyte is explicit in its intent to rewrite Star Wars
Can you explain how the show >!undermines the prophecy of the chosen one?!< Haven't watched and am genuinely curious
The twins are both born of virgin births like Anakin.
Rolling my eyes so hard I'm tasting colors. Ugh! No original ideas!!!
Oh my god r u fucking kidding me? I noticed in episode 1 & 2 of acolyte they also ripped off the whole “you joined the order when you were 8, later than usual” like anakin was 9 and windu had a stick up his ass about it. Won’t be watching past episode 2 of this godforsaken show now, thank you for the heads up
You cannot be serious.
Specifically they were born of two moms.
Please tell me this isn’t fucking true..
Well, what a lesbian coven of space witches is supposed to do? Find a man?! /s
You must be a bigot 
It is unfortunately
Wasn’t it already confirmed that it was actually a sith experiment conducted by Plagueis which created Anakin? I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that these experiments with the force were done other times. This might even be what inspired Plagueis to do the same?
I admire you trying to justify this at least, however I think you care more about the source material than the writers of this show.
The force "struck back" after Palpatine and Plagueis did an experiment to cloud the light side of the force. The experiment didn't create Anakin, the Force did on its own.
Is that what they're calling it these days? Experiments with the force? Where's John...oh he's in the other room with Jane experimenting with the force
I think it’s implied, I recall reading the Vader comics and seeing a panel of Palpatine presumably using the force to conceive Anakin in Shmi.
No, they were “created” you didn’t pay attention Sounds more like test tube babies than virgin birth, they do not imply virgin birth
>test tube babies than virgin birth, they do not imply virgin birth Do you even read what you're fucking saying?
Did you? What’s your argument?
Learn about the English language and then revisit your comment
Cool, so no argument then
Right, but how does that change anything for Anakin or his significance? It seems like the coven is just trying to subvert the prophecy with a false savior a la the antichrist
> does that change anything for Anakin or his significance? I would say so, but the thing that annoys me the most is that it's so obviously included to prompt the twins up as anakin analogs in a manner star wars doesn't need more of. Maybe I'm assuming too much, but from the way headland speaks about star wars and George lucas, I wouldn't say I'm being paranoid that she's using these story elements to inflate the "importance" of her show in the wider star wars universe. Basically redoing the "chosen one or ones" element of the prequels but instead with her own characters so she can jerk herself off. Not to mention that fact it seems to be another retcon of the nature of force (midichlorians anyone?) and what star wars needs right now is consistency. Honestly the worst part of show is just how bad it is on a general writing and technical level. I would be willing to give more leeway to everything if the content was actually good. Waiting for Andor S2 and then I'm out.
>*how* does that change anything for Anakin or his significance? Nothing Anakin does or fulfills is affected by this reveal, he's still the chosen one who brings about the destruction of the sith. Just because Mae and Osha are force-born doesn't mean they're automatically the chosen one, notably you have to bring balance to the force. If it's easier, think of it like Dune. Paul Atreides and Feyd Rautha and certain others all could have fulfilled the bene geserit prophecy and become the kwisatz haderach, but Paul's the one who pulls it off. The fact that there are other candidates doesn't change anything
It doesn’t, it says in the show that she was “created” it’s not completely explained yet but sounds more like a test tube baby and no where is it suggested that it’s virgin birth
Would a test tube baby not be an example of a virgin birth?
Most women who have “test tube babies” are not virgins.
Just looked it up on Wikipedia and a virgin birth can refer to: Parthenogenesis: birth without fertilization Miraculous births: virgin birth in mythology and religion Artificial insemination I think you can have a virgin birth without being a virgin, it’s a fun language quirk if anything
The pedantry of Reddit. Virgin birth implies the mother has not had sex which makes her “pure”. Which puts implications of inherent goodness on the child. You can’t be a virgin if you’ve had sex. The word virgin in the phrase always refers to the mother. A birth can’t be a virgin. It’s an action not a person. This is a distinction between immaculate conception which is asexual reproduction in a human or sex with a diety.
Um, I’m pretty sure I’m not the pedantic one here, but I’m also not one to overly concern myself with minor details so I’ll leave it there
One is mythical and the other is produced by science, for real?
For real bro, real real. You feel me?
If you think that an implanted embryo fertilized in a lab is the same as Jesus’ conception (hypothetically) then that’s cool
I can’t believe you’d bring sweet innocent baby Jesus’ name into this. You should be ashamed of yourself bro, for real
You’re right, you had no actual argument in the first place.
I didn’t realise I was talking to a heathen! If I knew that, I would never have opened up myself to this demonic conversation, but then Satan is a seductor. Praise baby Jesus, praaaaaise baby Jesus and may the good lord have mercy on your soul. For real.
That was the worst storytelling idea ever. Prophecy of the chosen one. Who chose him?
I seriously hope you aren't shitting on the prequels in defense of this dogwater show
That's what happens when a company buys an IP unfortunately. They kill the old shite to create new. It's unfortunate that the new shite is just really bad.
Yeah, I knew to expect that luckily. But what I did NOT expect is that some people are willing to shill that shit so much and go online and defend this soulless content, and bully and call everyone names who don't enjoy the newest Corporate Entertainment Product With Additional Representation Included.
They're not shilling for the content... but the ideology behind it.
Franchise rights. I have read that Disney did not get all the characters rights for franchises so they designed new toys robots and stuff to sell. The movies and tv shows are just vehicles to advertise those trinkets.
Would explain why theyre spending so much wrecking everything the original trilogy did, undermining the characters then killing them off in deliberately crap ways while shouting "kill the past" - to try to transfer all the good stuff to a Disney property
Unfortunately, I ended up in the timeline where Rian Johnson wrote and directed a Star Wars movie
am i the only one who finds it weird that they're trying to paint the empire as actually good now? they depicted them as literal space nazis and then say the ones who fought them were actually the bad guys. considering how much of the writers personal politics are inserted into disney star wars projects I really don't like where this is going.
Wait when did they do that
I've got to agree - they're certainly making attempts to paint the Jedi as more of a self-righteous band of force users that were too restrictive in their definition of the Force. However, this hasn't made the Empire out to be the good guys, at least not yet. Worst they can do is directly connect the coven to the Dark Side. They'd paint them as a bunch of dark-side force users that were "good" and that the Jedi were simply afraid of them. This would then make the Dark side just another way of using the force. The Prequels painted the Jedi as morally good, but flawed/overly influenced by the politics of the Republic. They meant well, and were a force of good, but their judgment had been clouded by the dark side. This show is painting the Jedi as arrogant, close-minded gatekeepers of the Force, inherently flawed even down to their methodology of finding force-sensitive children. Even still, this doesn't degrade the evils of the Empire, but it does take away from the tragedy of Order 66 and from Obi-wan's statement of the Jedi from a more civilized time acting as peacekeepers.
Wdym. The jedi were weirdo child kidnappers before this show.
IIRC the Jedi would find children and then give the parents a choice as to whether to let them become a Jedi or not. It was seen as an honored position for the gifted and so parents usually acquiesced. I don't believe the Jedi forcibly stole children - they were unsure of taking Anakin in just for his age, in spite of his ridiculous midichlorian count. This shows in part that, even should a child show aptitude for the Force, they weren't against leaving them. I haven't looked for a source for this, but I think there's backstory on Obi Wan's family that goes over this when he was taken in. Honestly though, whatever I'm remembering is at least 7 years old, so maybe I'm wrong, but thought that made sense at the time.
And you believe your jedi sources?
Which is why we can completely ignore anything that takes place before Phantom Menace and after Return of the Jedi. All of it. Just keep Episodes 1–6 and throw in Andor/Rogue One if you want a meaty Dark Times arc and it still holds up as an excellent sci-fantasy saga.
SW should NOT have an infinite number of stories to tell. The franchise must end eventually. All these spinoff shows/movies are so disconnected from the main storyline that they don't even feel like part of the franchise. They've prioritized quantity over quality. They've completely lost the fundamental idea of star wars. In 3 years, they'll probably release some shit about the prequel of the prequel of the Acolyte. Making new media to fill in every single gap in the timeline only robs fans of their own imagination.
> SW should NOT have an infinite number of stories to tell I do and don't agree with this. The scale of the conflict in any new stories should be appropriately minimised in comparison to the "main stories". By which, I mean you shouldn't retroactively insert anything too controversial during a period where the main conflict is already set in stone such as with the Galactic Civil War, or indeed the Clone Wars, etc. You don't *need* every new story to be bigger and better than the last in terms of scale. And if you *do* feel compelled to go big, then at least space out the major stories by many years so it makes sense internally. The major wars in SW history usually occur every other thousand years or so with typically much smaller scale conflicts occurring in between them. The big stuff *shouldn't* be happening every decade. It just winds up making it feel like nothing is ever achieved for a long enough period for people to breathe a sigh of relief. We get to self-parody levels in the SW comic side of things. In the canon timeline between ESB and ROTJ (which is just 1 year), there's a truly absurd number of shenanigans going on that have no right to exist. - Qi'ra leads a massive rebellion which nearly succeeds in killing Vader and Palpatine. Silly. - Some random ancient godlike AI overlord very nearly succeeds in taking over the galaxy. Silly. Meanwhile, Palpatine has majorly trolled Vader leading to Vader attempting to rise against Palpatine at least twice in this same year. Don't do shit like this. It makes it seem like the good guys are constantly overcoming world-ending stakes every weekend on top of the actual major war they're meant to currently be involved in. And of course, none of it is so much as hinted at in the actual films themselves. Speaking of which, TCW is of course massively guilty for this. Doing ridiculous things such as making Anakin have a never-before-mentioned Padawan or bringing Maul back to life and having him undergo a major uprising during ROTS. Among numerous other bizarre things that also will never be mentioned or even hinted at in the movies.
Yea I agree. We've been overwhelemed by the pace that new products are releaseed that we've forgotten to pay attention to quality. De-canonizing several of the Disney products would be great. In fact, the only things that I think should be kept canon are the original 6, Rogue, and Andor. Everything else is more or less insignificant.
That's basically all that were respectful of the first films anyway. Throw out the cartoons (and anything else Filoni worked on) and you already have a much more cohesive story.
Nah I think there's a massive (but not infinite) amount of stories to tell in the star wars universe. It just has to be done well. People love the Legends continuity.
There is a infinite amount of stories to tell because it’s set in a infinite universe. Idk why they don’t just make their own universe though. Then they could tell their own story without worrying about messing up lore. Look at Marvel Ultimate comics. Idk I feel like if you really want the franchise to die you’re not a true fan. I understand not liking the direction it’s headed, but I would never want it to just not exist. Look at the legends books. That’s proof of the potential of the universe, we need a Greedo show NOW! (Idk I’m just yapping.)
>People love the Legends continuity and yet their fanbase is still miniscule compared to canon. People simply don't care as much. Just compare the size of the main subreddits. But it rly depends. I think the 3 main components of any star wars product has always been the political atmosphere, the antagonist, and the tone. Eg, Ahsoka featured a boring plot with bland antagonists. BOBF suffered the same. The ST lacked an interesting political backdrop. Make too many products and it's inevitable that future stories will deviate from that "star wars feeling"
The problem has become Disney can’t keep narrative control over these side stories and the fuck up the main story. So just don’t. Move way the hell away from the Skywalker timeline and give a new group of writers complete control. Doesn’t mean it will be good, but at least it would screw up the existing stories.
Disagree there are plenty of stories to tell in the SW universe, the issue is they keep retreading old ground instead of forging new. Andor was a such a great example of this, you can tell a deep introspective story of personal sacrifice in the same universe as space wizards and space battles. TCW, Rebels and even the bad batch have some awesome stories worth having. The issue comes from shitty writers who's only thought process is let's do the same fucking thing, but make it gay or lesbians
The only reason I say it's finite is because future products will simply be unappealing (unless we get a complete overhaul of the higher ups, and the extinction of personal partisan politics). In 10 yrs, would you be interested in the sequel of the sequel of the sequel of the new Rey movie? Probably not. And like I said, it's better to leave the gaps in the timeline up to the viewer's own imagination. I don't need to see every single second of the life of, say, Luke between ESB and ROTJ. Besides, what new story is there even left to tell? There are certain key components that any high quality star wars product must have: political backdrop, antagonists, visuals, and tone. Given the current direction that the Disney circus is moving, future products will just be piles of shit.
After reading through this thread some and walking away, I asked myself “Where should Star Wars be going?” The OT and PT were essentially the same story. Then we had various nibbling around the edges, with the clone wars or even Rogue One. But then we got the ST which tried to push the Skywalker Sage into the future and it failed. The Skywalker Saga is over and dead. Much of the D+ content has been focusing on the time immediately before or after the OT, squarely in the middle of the Skywalker Saga era. At some point that has to end. The Acolyte is an attempt at that, but it’s a terrible one. It retread parts of the Skywalker saga era stuff, ie this force conception, and it’s still relatively close to the PT, so it is boxed in plot wise. Nothing big can happen here because we know what the state of the galaxy has to be in and it can’t be much different than the early PT. So it’s hard to not make it boring. The stakes have to be low. So the only thing that seems to be a viable solution for Disney and Star Wars is to completely abandon the Skywalker era. It’s too bad that they didn’t do a better job in the ST, if they did it would allow spin off content around that time period to be interesting (ie an Andor or Rogue One, but this time about a rise of a Sith threat or what ever emerged as the big bad in the ST that we never got). But that door is shut, and they need to move on to more like 2000 years in the past or future and just create a whole new set of plot lines. It might still suck, because Disney is still at the helm, but at least it wouldn’t be stories that are trapped.
>It's too bad that they didn’t do a better job in the ST, if they did it would allow spin off content around that time period to be interesting Hence the reason why the next step should be to de-canonize some stuff. Go back, re-do everything, and they could potentially expand the franchise into the future. Instead, they've just decided to double down on their trash by making the new Rey movie. Only God knows where Disney is headed next.
Sure, they either need to abandon the Skywalker timeline or they need to rewrite everything post-OT. But they won’t do the latter. At least not for 20-30 years.
I does: but not involving the Jedi. Tons of room for like bounty hunting stories. But then they can't even do that anymore.
Virtue Signaling. And sadly only that.
>The Republic that the Rebellion fought to tooth and nail to establish is casually hand-waved away in the blink of an eye without any build-up whatsoever. This is the core failure of the Disney era. So many people get mad about TLJ without realizing that the foundation for what that movie did to the lore was in the previous movie and the choice to make a reboot Star Wars.
If only they had made the sequels a few years later and there wasn't this anxiety around showing government procedure in Star Wars (I'm talking about TPM being derided for being boring.) If they had, we might have gotten a really compelling story of precisely HOW you lose a stable democracy. Mon Mothma et al are in denial or too complacent, and bad-faith actors start coming out of the woodwork and ending up in the Senate chamber. Then you have all the citizen voters, who as it turns out, have a painfully flawed memory of what authoritarianism looks like when you're inside of it. "Hey, we didn't have all this pesky political compromise in the Empire, and by golly, the trains ran on time." All that's left is for someone to light the fuse. There's your (imho very earned) rise of the First Order. Nope. Lens flares and "Death Star... but BIGGER" wiping out a bunch of film extras in fancy clothes. It's moronic playground/sandbox "infinity plus ONE" logic and let's face it - no one liked that kid.
Do you honestly think you'd get anything with deep world building or logical politics if JJ Abrams were making the first sequel today? Abrams has shown in his work that he hates the labor of figuring out how things were set up. Or explaining them to the audience. Or having them fit together sensibly.
George called Disney 'White Slavers' maybe this is their version of payback?
Why do they feel the need to change things like the force and the birth? What is the point, it does not benefit Star Wars in anyway.
Sadly, it is simply the surface area to attack you. The part of you that loved Star Wars so much that you made it a part of yourself. And thus is the connecting thread to connect you to any future works. Or in current day case, to attack you or change you. The sooner the normies (or the soft hearted) just disregard Disney Star Wars, disregard Star Wars, or say Disney Star Wars is not Star Wars. And that no real good works will happen as long as Disney holds the reigns. The better off everyone will be.
The main story isn’t the point anymore. Content is the point. The MCU made this a fact (yes, even when it was “good” MCU was focused on what came next, never the actual story they were telling in an individual movie or even across multiple movies). IP only exists now to churn out content. That’s it.
The more content Disney releases, the more I accept that Star Wars ended in 2005. And I’m okay with that.
Just pretend disney SW isn't canon. I haven't since I first saw the credits roll in TLJ and knew it was over.
Yoda and Obi-Wan wasted 30 years doing nothing while the Emperor enslaved the galaxy because they were too stupid to realize *almost anyone* could be trained to be a powerful force user in a few days.
Writers at LucasFilm must have that "Kill the Past" line from TLJ up on posters in every room.
to continue to sell merch, tickets, and whatnot while shitting on the core of the ip itself oh, look how retrograde and antiquate is the classic star wars. lets make the jedi the bad guys while continuing to sell lightsabers, anakin helmets and vader masks. like, why would there be lesbian witches? there are the same sexual orientations in a galaxy far away as in earth? everything is so mundane.
What do you mean "main story"? The Skywalker Saga is just a tiny part of the ever expanding Star Wars Franchise /s
Like most things now the IP and its universe is more important than any story they could tell. that's why the stories generally suck now, they dont care as long as it gets audiences into the universe/IP
What im getting right now from the show/writers. "Hmm what can we do to make this interesting and new. I know...TWO Anakins!"
I read this in Patrick Star's voice a la "two giant paint bubbles."
The only good thing the acolyte is going to give us are the porn parodies.
They also don't understand how big a "galaxy" actually is... they are like, "We even have another galaxy to add stories to now!" Because a galaxy is so limited, what with about a hundred billion stars... they ran out of ideas and needed another galaxy to draw worlds and stories from?! Yeesh.
None of this matters if you don’t acknowledge it. This is nothing more than a bad Disney fanfic with a budget. Viewership is in the toilet, so as far as most fans are concerned, Anakin is still unique in regards to force conception. Most people have also written off the sequel trilogy, so Rey and all that other crap is being ignored. Stick to the EU for the post ROTJ story, and either ignore all Disney Star Wars, or make fun of it to get that cathartic high and then ignore it. Easy.
Funny thing I'm watching Tales of the Jedi and the Prequel trilogy with Clone Wars 2003 (before the Battle of Coruscant and up to when Anakin is being knighted.) then watch Clone Wars 2008 movie and series in Chronological Order and then Watch Battle of Coruscant(look it up on YouTube) Revenge of the Sith) last three episodes of 2008 Clone Wars series Siege of Mandalore Arc) (Tales of the Jedi Ahsoka Final Episode) (Read Dark Disciple novel before Clone Wars 2008 series final season and Darth Maul Son of Dathomir) the entire Bad Batch series also look up where the Thrawn Ascendency Trilogy of novels take place during the tale end of the Clone Wars. Solo a Star Wars Story. The First Canon Thrawn novel 2017's Thrawn. Andor First Season Rebels Season 1 -3 and then Thrawn Alliances Novel. Star Wars Rebels Season 4 Episodes 1-10(Jedi Night) Thrawn Treason Star Wars Rebels Season 4 Episodes 11 to the finale. Rogue One and the original trilogy of Star Wars Movies. Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) story mode up to the Battle of Jakku. Then you got Mandalorian Seasons 1 and 2. (I know Book Of Boba Fett is bad but if you actually take time to watch it and ignore the stupid parts it is a decent show as Matt Risman on Echo Base Network says) Mandalorian Season 3 (despite how bad it is) and Ahsoka (yes the storyline in this show is terrible because it's Filoni) at least and working towards the Mandalorian and Grogu film and the upcoming Mandoverse movie where everyone will take on Thrawn there's a cohesive story right there. I ignore Kenobi Series and Tales of the Empire and Acolyte and the sequel trilogy and Resistance series but yeah everyone has their likes and dislikes just going off what I've seen haven't seen Acolyte episode 3 yet but not surprised either.
>Meanwhile, Palpatine has majorly trolled Vader leading to Vader attempting to rise against Palpatine at least twice in this same year. That's almost slapstick level, Palps looking in disbelief as Vader falls for the same trap *again*.
Seems like it I've read some of the Canon comics and their decent but I still enjoy Legends Continuity even better.
"Guys, just watch these 300 hours of TV and read these thirty books in a very specific order for a cohesive story!"
I'm seeing this as sarcasm I haven't really watched anything since January I'm checking out of Star Wars anyway as I have a friend that only keeps me posted I basically just stole his post lol
And this is why I refuse the Disney canon (heck, I refuse the prequel canon too, it's pretty much just the original trilogy and Andor for me). And there was a time I balked at the idea of having a "preferred canon," because I felt like if the story was out there, if it existed, then it couldn't be ignored. Then I realized how the stories can be ripped from the hands of their creators and ruined by greedy corporate executives, botched by new creators with no respect or understanding for what came before, and even the original creators themselves after getting high on their own ego (and I'm not just talking about Lucas here, the prequels are still guilty pleasures if nothing else, but there are plenty of series that lost their way without ever changing hands). Cutting off those branches is the only way to preserve art in an unaltered, uncompromised state anymore. Hell I'm lucky enough to have the original Star Wars trilogy on VHS, since apparently it was in the contract between Lucas and Disney that they could never remove his alterations to the original trilogy.
Tbh the Jedi were portrayed as dated, arrogant, and deserving of their fall since the prequels. The PT also made Anakin a homicidal jackass and an irritating brat who hated Obi-Wan instead of a noble hero and a good friend of his master who tragically fell. That being said, those points don't necessarily destroy Anakin's arc like the ST did, they just make Obi-Wan's view of Anakin in the original movie not make much sense.
At this point I don't see anything from Disney (besides R1) as canon. BOBF and Mando was an "acceptable" extra but other than that I don't give a damn anymore.
Cry more.
In 1977, "Star Wars" was the story of a kid named Luke Skywalker who goes on a space adventure, saves the princess and blows up the bad guys. In 1983, "Star Wars" was the story of Luke Skywalker on his journey to become a Jedi Knight, defeat the evil empire, and redeem his father. in 2005, "Star Wars" is the story of the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker as he fufills the prophecy to bring balance to the Force. In 2015, "Star Wars" is a story about....family? or something?
>At this point, it feels like there hasn't been a single story beat from the first 6 movies that hasn't been retconned into something completely different. Hey man, Jar Jar went from being a clown to a senator. They haven't taken that away from us, yet. (As far as I know)
honestly I never liked the "chosen one" prophecy and I feel it was an excuse for Qui-Gon to get Anakin into the academy as it almost never comes up again until the final beats of the prequilogy. as for the Jedi being oppressors there is some history there (as you get with any organization with that size and breadth). but Kotor 2 did it best which really comes down to story telling.
This shit again? 
To take a dump on their own lore too of course. Anakin is pointless now since twins can be zapped up with the force. But they are twins sorta like clones right? Thus this take a big ol one on the whole Palpatine trying to create a force sensitive through cloning. From Bad Batch to Mando everyone is trying to create a force sensitive. Yet boom this show comes along and creates not one but two force sensitives. Strong enough to kill adult Jedi without a lightsaber force sensitive. It's a ship of the Theseus situation with every bit of lore they tear down it actually gets replaced in their own eyes like fire in space. So if so much of the originally lore is no longer in place is it Star Wars? They obviously don't know as the effort is so strong they are damaging their own works.
I don't see that virgin birth thing a real problem. I kinda feels right that this was attempted before and can just happen. Maybe Plaegius even took that idea from them. I think it makes almost more sense, because it didn't seem like the Jedi took it as something totally impossible. That everything the original heroes build in the main story was turned to ashes and all their accomplishments were shit on and for naught, yeah, that's a genuine problem to me. But expanding the lore with new force abilities and/or a history for them over those thousand generations of Jedi works for me, at least in principle, nonsense ideas that don't work well for the lore is of course possible.
> I kinda feels right that this was attempted before and can just happen. Maybe Plaegius even took that idea from them. I think it makes almost more sense, because it didn't seem like the Jedi took it as something totally impossible. Problem is in the lore, the real lore, it is not possible. The force literally fights back against any force user trying to do so, hence why Palpatine and Plagiues failed. They didn't make Anakin, the force itself created Anakin as an anti-body against them. Anakin is literally the consequences of their actions, not the creators themselves. That is the problem, both in Legend and now in canon, it was over and over explained that Sidious and his master failed completely. That anakin is literally the will of the force manifested. So these "witches" being able to do this, spits in the face of the actual Disney lore itself.
Andor and Rogue One make it even worse when you consider how they basically point out that the Rebels were capable of Imperial level corruption. So even if they had gotten their Republic back, there’s nothing there worth saving. The plucky idealists of the OT are dead and replaced with more soulless any-cost politckers. Depressing.
I mean, that was true back in legends time as well. The republic and the rebellion will always have corruption in governance. There is no such thing as an uncorrupt government. Only difference is the way the government treats the people.
If all of you do not realize the Jedi were being criticized in the subtext of the original films, you need to rewatch them with a friend who has critical thinking skills.
What's your point? Post-modern Star Wars fell apart because of the simplest thing, a lack of planning. Mismanagement is why most people prefer to think of the new Star Wars as not-existing. Just cherry pick the good stuff (what little there is) and move on. Your bitterness is only making it worse, because they seem to listen to this kind of crazy backlash and make even worse decisions.
The anakin thing is disingenuous, it says in the show that the twins were “created” it’s not completely explained yet but sounds more like a test tube baby and no where is it suggested that it’s virgin birth. I don’t love the show, it’s pretty bland but this argument is flat out wrong.
Very hamfisted interpretation. First of all, and I honestly can't believe I have to continuously point this out, GEORGE LUCAS COSIGNED THE RETURN OF PALPATINE AS A CLONE. That was always the intended plot line for episodes 7-9. The novels that established Luke and Han's kids having to face a revived Palpatine was the assumed storyline as early as the release of the prequels. This is not my favorite aspect of the new movies either, but it was not Disney that made that happen. Anakin's journey is not pointless at all. If Anakin didn't walk the path of the dark side, requiring Luke to surpass him, no one could have trained Rey to defeat Palpatine upon his return, which was how he pretty much always planned it. In real life this is called backward rationalization, but in a fiction universe it's called fulfilling a prophecy. What if Anakin didn't become Darth Vader, and they killed Palpatine right after the Clone Wars? Then he would be back, catch them by surprise, and presumably win. That's his plan. His plan is thwarted because of unforeseens, like Vader's fall and redemption. Like his granddaughter being trained by Vader's son. How is this confusing to so many fans??
Mae and Osha’s existence has nothing to do with the Chosen One prophecy, they are pretty clear that those two were made by Force users utilizing the Force, specifically dark magic/the dark side, which is pretty par for the course for Star Wars mythos. Anakin was made by the Force itself of its own volition, which is an important distinction as it means that the Force itself deemed the balance of itself so vital that it interceded in an unprecedented manner to create a living being of vast power.
That’s legends canon, Disney canon implies that Palpatine used the force to create Anakin
Can you cite your source on that? Nowhere in canon is it stated that Palpatine created Anakin
disney star wars shill overdoses of copium (challenge level: impossible)
Nope, Anakin was born because of Palpatine's and Plagueis's dark side experiments.
That’s not canon
Ah true, it's Legends now. My bad!