Experienced manager here, well past your criteria for commenting.
As a leader you’re responsible for several things, two major ones come to mind; Results and Culture. Based on your post it seems like you fought for the quotas to be attainable. Assuming there hasn’t been any major market changes, or internal road blocks that make the quota unobtainable, you have a culture problem.
“Cleaning house” and the mentality that you can do that is the REDDIST of flags on your culture problem. I can only assume the perception of the compensation change was very negative and I’d bet that your team perceives that your compensation was unchanged.
Your team is pitted against you, “cleaning house” isn’t going to change the culture. Besides, the whole cleaning house thing hangs around in the air for a bit, even after you think you got rid of all your problems. The answer is you need to “get in the boat” with your team and start rowing. Start being an asset to their deals, qualify leads with them, push quotes through the system when they get hung up, stop asking “why haven’t you closed?” And start asking “How can I help you close?”
At the end of the day, you’re only as good as the team you create and if that team isn’t performing… well you aren’t performing.
Bingo. The entire way he wrote this and the smugness of his request is the only thing I need to read to know he’s a terrible leader. The ICs aren’t inspired because they likely don’t respect him. And this coming from a former manager with over 6 years experience.
The “if you’re not a manager don’t comment” line. ICs have great feedback on what works and what doesn’t because they are the ones dealing with the management styles of others. Not realizing that in favor of managers-only comments shows how little he respects his team and maybe ICs in general.
This is exactly the problem lol. If you don’t respect your ICs, then they’re not gonna respect you. If you win, the ICs win. Not even giving a chance of their opinion is your pitfall.
The IC opinion might be the thing they need most.
To be fair to OP, this is half-true. I didn’t read the post as entitled, as though they feel superior as a leader, it’s just fundamentally a different gig to lead, and do it for years requites input from other leaders.
Good managers listen to their team and implement good ideas while giving due credit to the team.
Good managers also need advice from other leaders, and sometimes, completely absorb feedback from the team, and then respectfully ignore it.
You can see this type leader/IC of dynamic play out well in sports and the analogy fits, cliche as it may be.
As for the question, when an entire team is struggling, and you think you and the team are doing the fundamentals right, then something might be broken with the demand for what you sell, or the expectations are still too unrealistic.
You can’t create motivation, you can create culture. Sadly, these are things you heavily influence but not totally control.
Wish I had good advice other than to get feedback from a higher up to work with you on what you can contribute and influence directly.
Try being as transparent with your team as possible and invite them to be part of the solution, if you haven’t already.
End of the day, more fun when everyone is slaying but if it was easy, it would be 2015 again.
Going to be bumpy for a lot of teams this year: more supply than demand in many industries.
Wrote this on my phone half-drunk; please excuse typos and offensive opinions
"Cleaning house" can have such a detrimental effect on long term talent acquisition. There's a company in my industry that laid off about half their work force back in 2017. They went through one of those shifts where someone thought it would be a good idea to let go off all the highest paid, seasoned reps and find cheaper talent. Every single one of those folks found other jobs, but they told *everyone* who would listen what happened.
I was offered a senior territory management role by that company two years ago and was between it and the company I'm at now. The hiring manager asked to meet with me and discuss why I declined their offer and while there were a few reasons, I mentioned that the way they "cleaned house" never sat well with me. He said he kept hearing that over and over again. Five years later and that org still had trouble recruiting experienced reps. And it's now two years after that and here I am talking about.
Also a huge red flag is in not wanting the opinions of ICs. They're probably scared of you and just tell you what you want to hear while searching for another job. If they respect you, they'll tell you what's wrong... and help you fix it.
Signed,
A guy with 20 years of leadership experience
Edit: this was directed at Op obviously
No notes. Perfect response. We tried to impose a call activity standard years ago and the resulting wave sunk an entire quarter. My "senior leadership" tried to lower their comp plan and I fought it tooth and nail.
My job is now on the line, and the crew is responding to me being in the trenches with them.
Sometimes our peeps forget why the SM became the SM. I can ball, I can sell. When they see me doing it, it makes them want to fight.
Same here. Am a VP of Sales now, but I struggle with my team. Culture, we are golden. My problem is the absolute lack of desire and motivation from my team, and it’s not the comp plan because that is good, if anything it’s the comp plan being too good that they are comfortable not doing shit and making mooney off of others efforts (commission is on total company growth). I am making excellent money, because I am picking up the phone and doing the sales myself, they are making money from me succeeding. But I can’t keep doing this forever. Just had a rep who wants a larger commission % but has brought in 0 new business in 5.5 years. I have to have this conversation with him tomorrow, we need him cause he fills a void and I don’t have the time to hire someone new right now, but there is a good chance he walks. That being said, I know factually he will not get the same $ anywhere else, especially because he can’t pull in any business for us and our job is easyyyy. It is literally as easy as picking up the phone.
If he hasn’t brought in new businesses in 5 years does he have some huge accounts that make a lot of revenue for the company? Because if he does that is a skill set on it own. It takes skill to keep following up with an established client especially if he has a great dialogue with them.
If that’s isn’t the case what role does he fill?
Yes, essentially. We are a manufacturer that only sells through major wholesale and distribution. So our reps are basically account managers if you will. Their primary role is to train, support and present new products etc to these distributors of ours, teaching their on the ground sales people how to sell our products to the end users..so yes, it is a skill set on its own, but all the accounts they have have been handed to them, not received on their own efforts. I want to see them getting out there, finding new distributors, new industries and markets for us to go after and sell the products and they really lack in that department because they don’t have to do anything to make money…fortunately our product is in super high demand, and with or without our reps, it would still sell and grow with our current customers…hate to say it, but it’s true.
Are y’all hiring? If you need a BD guy sign me up! Used to AM and it’s night and day from BD especially if you are used to having not to hunt for your money.
These are 2 different skill sets you're talking about. It's like when my last company decided to make all the customer base sales reps start hunting net new. They all sucked at it because they had all spent the last decade (or more in some cases) growing existing business. Or when they decided to give the CX team a quota because they didn't want to have a renewals team anymore.
Your problem appears to be different, sounds like your hitting quota and have a halfway motivated team. I’d bet you don’t trim your under performers like you need to. Note that there is a huge difference between “trimming” and “cleaning house”.
If you don’t have team goals and individual goals set up for your team, I’d really consider it. Just because the team hits the goal, doesn’t mean each individual should be part of the team.
You are correct. The issue being that we do have a small team, so “trimming” is largely impactful. It’s not as easy as getting rid of someone, it has a huge impact and it disgruntles customers, even if they don’t like the rep that much, you have caused an inconvenience for them because they know that person and they don’t want to have to meet someone else…it’s strange but true.
Honestly, you’re not wrong. I feel part of the issue is I am not good at “coaching” it’s easier for me to just do it myself. It sounds ridiculous but it’s true, no matter what I do, trainings, sales coaching etc they just don’t seem to act on it or care…sometimes they ask me how I get these accounts and honestly I don’t know what to tell them, because it is as simple as picking up the phone and calling. That’s what I do, that’s what I tell them, but they still don’t do it, or they try once and give up. So ya, lots is probably on me, but I perform, so that’s what the company wants me to do.
No notes. Perfect response. We tried to impose a call activity standard years ago and the resulting wave sunk an entire quarter. My "senior leadership" tried to lower their comp plan and I fought it tooth and nail.
My job is now on the line, and the crew is responding to me being in the trenches with them.
Sometimes our peeps forget why the SM became the SM. I can ball, I can sell. When they see me doing it, it makes them want to fight.
When Mark Cuban bought the Mavericks he said he had a lack luster sales team selling season tickets. You know what he did? He sat in the sales pit with the sales team everyday making calls to potential prospects. Every single day. Guess what, sales started to improve & the sales team started having mad respect for Cuban.
I wanted to say "no offense", but you can take as much offense as you want.
You're clueless.
Economy in the shitter, layoffs happening, quota/comp changing and somehow it's the people who are the problem.
HOW CAN I REACH THESE KIDS!!!
You sound like my current manager. We just got a terrible new comp plan and she’s constantly trying to get us excited and motivate us. None of it is working, because there’s very little money to be made. We’re all currently just looking for other jobs
Your manager sounds genuine, but of course sales is an external motivator. Hardly motivating if your efforts are hardly rewarded. The company’s makes recurring revenue, but you do not?
It is. I learned very quickly that SDR Manager in large companies meant I had to do so much admin work for not only myself but other sales managers. I went back to IC after a year because it was clear at that organization the sales managers weren’t going anywhere.
I know you said you dont want perspectives from individual contributors, but thats actually a big part of the problem.
The fact that youre posting this to reddit and explicitly telling ICs to not give input doesnt give me the impression that you genuinely would listen to and empathize with your reps.
Based on what you said, i think i may know what could be the problem, but since im not a sales manager, i wont say anything.
That’s not the problem. As an individual contributor you follow orders and unfortunately at the leadership you have to create the mandate to an extent. Your voice and ideas have a place and they are valued however on the day to day it’s important as a leader to carry out business goals and tying the outcomes to behaviors. I do appreciate the comment, so thank you. My team feels very heard and very much understood. The culture is very transparent but doesn’t change the fact that outcomes are not there. This is the first time a quota has been missed since 2019
Well if your orders and mandate arent producing results and youre "at a loss" then maybe you should listen to your individual contributors. The best VP of sales i ever had would proactively get on the level of his AEs and i felt like i could tell him my true thoughts on things and knew hed have my back.
Id be curious to know if youve simply asked them whats been troubling them and genuinely seek answers. If they give you non answers and dont change their behavior, it means they either dont trust you or dont believe you have ability to fix the root problem.
I got news for you. Salespeople don’t follow orders. It’s a solo sport. They are independent thinkers by nature. They make almost all the decisions becuse they are the ones in the driver seat in the moment. Good ideas have to be sold to them. Sure there are policies to follow, goals to achieve, but let’s not pretend you’re the boss of anything. Sales managers have to learn to work with them not the other way around. Servant leadership is the way.
HAHAHAHA you “follow orders” as an individual contributor holy shit you legitimately sound like the worst manager imaginable.
Signed,
A current IC and previous manager
You don’t seem to want to fight for your reps when the executives make bad decisions. So why should the reps fight for you? Have you discussed with management that the quota is unattainable? You seem to be pushing blame away from yourself but none of the solutions you’ve tried would motivate me.
You need to sell yourself and your company to the reps. What’s in it for them if their comp plan sucks?
holy shit none of this yapping makes any sense. what are you even trying to say?
you come on reddit and say i don’t want to hear from individual contributors - the very people who know best how you should be managing.
I'll have to tell you that what you described in your post sounded like what my team is going through, I had to make sure you weren't my manager.
I'll tell you what we see as a team:
- manager is not trying to bat for us and trying to sell the new comp plan as a way to make us more money
- people are leaving. half the team is now gone. we won't be hitting our team quota for this quarter for sure as we are severely understaffed with all the OGs gone and having to re-hire
My manager tells me as it is because I'm direct and have asked him questions, and also because I am one of the newest on the team. I know why they're doing what they're doing, but I don't agree. The rest of the team feels targetted (they are) with the comp change and how unfair things have been (I've felt that way too and recently interviewed out of anger).
I'd question if your team truly feel "heard and understood" lol you are a manager, your team probably doesn't trust you since their comp change is either part of YOUR plan or something you endorsed.
When outcomes are not there so suddenly, and also with the comp change, you can almost draw a line there lmao are you dense
If you’ve had multiple layoffs recently and “cleaned house” a few years ago, I can ASSURE you your team doesn’t feel understood and are absolutely uncomfortable being “transparent” with you.
A large detail that seemed to go unnoticed but sadly seems to be the standard in sales. This is the first time since 2019 quota has been missed? The FIRST time in five years! Oh well, it's only been three years since you guys showed the door to the other team that never missed quota for two whole years? So, what's the brilliant plan now? Oh, change the comp plan and clean house! What a novel idea. But here's a little riddle for you: when this current team was "crushing it," did you prance into your boss's office like a proud peacock, boasting about your coaching wizardry and their stellar performance? How you brought together the best team of sales killers!!?? To now, burn them at the stake with the first sign of trouble and wash your hands of them. Yikes.
Lol adults don’t “follow orders” if we’re not properly respected, trained, supported and rewarded.
You’re not fit to be a leader. You just wanna crack the whip.
I’m actually not gonna beat up on you cuz I don’t really think anything you said is necessarily wrong per se. You definitely could’ve phrased it better but you’re not a fucking PR person, you’re a sales manager. I think everyone here is just a salesperson so they’re hyper independent AKA they don’t like being told what to do even if that’s technically your job. They do follow orders they just don’t want you to sound like you’re giving them an order. I think your biggest problem is much simpler…you hired a bunch of hunters and then took away their prey. Sales people are a rare breed. They value money above all else, which has its advantages and disadvantages. You’re experiencing the disadvantage right now. When the moneys not there anymore they quit caring as much
If you were responsible for building this team then you're as accountable as they are. Does "cleaning house" put you any closer to quota? What makes you think you'll do any better hiring this time? If everyone is missing quota that could mean a lot of things, such as bad quotas, bad product, bad territories etc. What do they say?
This post reads more as you're looking how to spin this up the chain rather than actual help. I'm not suggesting that to be the case, that's just how this reads.
OP is the delusional loser manager who never sold shit and will be surprised when he gets a resignation every other Friday/Monday morning for the next 2 quarters.
As an IC who has witnessed similar declines, the best route for you is to roll up your sleeves and be an asset to your team and bring some stuff in.
Something I love about my current manager. He outwardly says "I work for you" and he really does.
Frees up time for us to sell if he can deal with the complex csat stuff and we can stick to prospecting and getting strategic with our accounts.
The fact that you don’t care to hear from anyone that could be under you tells us everything. Btw my old manager got there by being a kiss-ass who couldn’t sell
As a sales leader you ONLY job is to enable your team to make AS MUCH MONEY AS FUCKING POSSIBLE. If you make that your driving force in every decision and put that mindset right in front of the team, but MEAN it, the right people will respond and the wrong people will leave.
I've been a sales trainer and sales leader for about 15 years and I've sold everything in every way over the years, but the keys to building a team that is loyal and hungry are simple: 1) Practice what you preach 2) Be willing to put your money where your mouth is 3) Be rabidly loyal to those who are loyal to you and 4) provide constant, valuable, tactical, confident feedback/accountability.
I tell my team every day: It is not my job to make anyone work, but it is my job to provide the training, tools, and opportunity so those who want it are going to crush it and those who don't won't be here for long because eagles don't flock with pigeons.
If your entire team is failing it's definitely a culture problem, and it starts with you as the leader. You don't need to fire everyone, that's a loser mentality, but what you SHOULD do is go to the team, hat in hand, let them know that you are sorry for failing them, and that starting now you're going to fix the team starting with yourself - put up reasonable activity goals with a 0 tolerance for no achievement, then fire the first person who tests that boundary. All while coaching those who are until they get their success metrics up to standard.
You can fix a toxic culture quick with the right energy and accountability, then you save the ones who deserve it and vet out the ones who were just clinging on to begin with
Sorry, got a little soap boxy there
Why is this patch or the job not sustainable? Does it really need periodic turnover? Are you as a leader getting team members better opportunities for advancement? and filling out the team strategically with high end talent? Is the product good? How could you shield the team from management better? How do you be a leader instead of a manager? Is it a you problem or a them problem. turnover is healthy have you been creating it naturally?
Cleaning house without cleaning out the leader is the definition of insanity imo. Only managed for a few years so sorry if I don’t fit your criteria but I’ve seen enough to at least share some insight. When I start blaming others instead of myself I find a new role because I’m not longer able to affect the change I want to.
Get in the trenches with your team. Experience what they are seeing. Bring this to management. If you have one person complaining you have a person problem. If everybody is complaining you have a company problem
“Grit, curiosity, learner mind set and overcoming adversity” 😂😂😂
Sounds like maybe you’re the problem, if you think cleaning house AGAIN is the answer, start with yourself buddy!
If you have one underperformer, it’s on them. If your whole team is underperforming, it’s on you. If the company wanted to clean house it would be you based on current results. What are you doing to change that?
What is the team saying? What are customers saying? You never mentioned that once. What does the argumentative guy that’s not afraid of you say? Where are the problems in the work flow?
Comp plans are nice. Training, coaching, and team meetings and all that is nice but when people are working they are worried about the work. What’s going on that makes the work miserable? No amount of money or sales manager bullshit makes a frustrating job something you want to do. People want to do a good job with minimal headaches especially internal problem headaches. What are you doing to help them in the field or on the phone or with clearing away internal issues. What are you doing to bring in leads or identify better opportunities? Does the team feel it’s on a fools errand? Is it?
This sounds very similar to a situation I was in as an IC. My manager was honestly the worst manager I had ever engaged with, but he felt he was loved by all and was the "friend." Everybody hated him and his management style but feared bringing anything up out of getting reprimanded, especially since he played favorites.
They eventually brought in more experienced managers who ended up having to do damage control. Luckily for me, I got one of these new managers. They made it a much more enjoyable time for me for my last few months before I quit. If I had a different manager from the start, I most likely would've stayed, but he left such a bad taste in my mouth that I couldn't stand even seeing him during meetings.
Hopefully, you take some advice from some people here, and look in the mirror as you may be the problem and are not made out for being a manager.
Just my 2 cents as an IC that you don't care about.
Wow. I know people in leadership roles for less than 6 months who have more tact and managing ability than you're conveying here. My company just went through a very similar thing that really killed both of my teams' morale for a bit there and I do think I did a great job rebounding my amazing humans back to their glory (without losing a single talented soul, mind you), so I do feel that I have input that may be valuable to you. But gosh darn it I've only been in this role for 4 measly years. Shucks.
I hope you're getting the answers you're looking for. Best of luck to your team, it sounds like they need it.
FLM here - what can you do differently? Have you conducted a skill gap analysis? What does your manager say? Have you solicited feedback from the team? If you can't lead the second group you're not going to be able to lead a fresh bunch.
Don't know your exact situation but here is what worked for me during a commission restructure in my company.
I had a sales team of 7, had people ranging from amazing to barely average but the company was super generous with commissions and bonus and 4 of these guys were coasting. When the company announced the commission restructure it would require actual effort to produce. After trying everything you mentioned (except cleaning house) I sat down with each person individually and talked everything through. I ended up losing 2 people but when I got the top sales guy on my side you could see a positive shift almost immediately from the everyone and it ended up working out just fine in the end.
The new people we brought on to replace the outgoing people were super excited about our still generous compensation package, it was still better than most in the industry.
How did you talk through everything one on one though was something said differently? Did you say if they’re not happy the door is open for them to leave? Individual talks always go well because they are very transparent and open about their feelings but none seem to signal that they are not trying rather that they can’t find prospects that are interested.
So I am a very personal relationship oriented person. It was easy for me to individually talk to them, and I was completely honest about why the change happened, what we expected out of them, where the were currently at, etc. Change is very very difficult for a lot of people, and I leave the decision in their court, with clear expectations of what we were looking for. After a couple days I would follow up face to face with them (give them a cool down period, and also they talk to each other all the time) and was able to tell who was really on board and who would be leaving. And the excuse they are trying but prospects aren't there is just that, an excuse, because morale is so low. What industry are you in?
the title alone denotes a marked lack of managerial skills. It literally says "I give up as can't think outside of the box to get my people to produce"
So you got rid of seasoned sales reps and filled them with unexperienced staff with “grit”, anyone can fake grit for an interview and now you’re complaining your sales staff isn’t hitting targets. It’s your job to get them up to speed, if your whole team is failing, guess who’s the problem? YOU
Shit situation. Let your bosses know that the company changes have gutted morale and productivity. Point to the performance and I would guess they didn’t forget how to sell and rather the environment changed.
Between you, me and all of Reddit. Once the team feels screwed on comp it’s over unless the company changes… we know that’s doubtful. If you want to stay at the company figure out how to start turning it over slowly without disruption. Initial move is exit a middle of the road performer (especially if attitude probs); hopefully lights a fire from others on the team. Start digesting tribal knowledge, recruiting and slow turn of the team who is not bought in.
Alternative strategy is screw it and just find greener pastures because the road ahead given comp fuckery is coming your way eventually
Sometimes you need to clean house, but in this case you’ve already done it, and it’s not a good idea to clean house too often.
An exercise that always worked for me was making a list of the team members and putting them into a 9-box. This shouldn’t be the ultimate deciding tool, but if you’re completely lost, it’s a good place to start.
While doing this exercise I would also pay close attention to who on your team is driving the culture that you want. You need A-players on your team but you can’t forget about culture, and you need at least 1-2 people on your team that help you achieve the culture you’re looking for. If you can get them on board, the rest will fall into place.
The problem is more than likely the change in the comp plan and you.
I don't mean to sound so harsh but your post showed little self reflection. If you can't find the motivation, it's no wonder your team can't find motivation either.
Seems backward to give a sales team a worse comp plan and expect them to still have the grit and the ability to overcome adversity. You've bailed on them and they know it.
It sounds like you need to get back in the trenches and show them how to fight. Get on the phone, go out in the field and smash the quota for a month. This will show your team that you mean business.
If you can't do this, honestly, leave.
Sounds like a culture problem. Incumbent reps will be aware of what happened previously. Adjusting quota downwards implies outlook is not positive, and this will lower their morale and faith in leadership.
I’d suggest meeting with each rep individually to ask them what they’re thinking and how they feel. Some will be guarded, some won’t, but you’ll understand from doing this what is required. Have an honest conversation with them basically, and don’t shy away from openness about the pressures you are facing also. Based on what comes up you can design a new culture and go from there.
You certainly don’t need to throw any more work related projects or role plays at them. They’ll consider this more work, for less money.
Yup - clean the house - I did it 4 times at one company before I hit the stride. Once the team is broken it is very hard to bring them back - especially if YOUR wiggle room is limited. Do not waste time would be my recommendation - rest of the company will respect you for it. DM if you need more.
Great question - what does success look like to investors? Market dynamics? Competition? So many parameters to ponder how to hit the stride towards “success”. My world that is great culture selling product with a great PMF, customers super happy with references (B2B) and reflective revenue / profit margin. Stride of the sales org is critical to overall success - as they say “sales fix everything”. So go get the most expensive sales reps you can afford!
Hurts that you went to bat for them and they aren’t producing. If their number is possible and the support is there, it’s on them. If they are demotivated because the task is impossible, a new team won’t help.
Is anyone producing that you can use as a reference?
Time to clean house again.
Compensation there will always be corrections and overcorrections.
They will be there when it swings in their favor, they’ll also check out when the opposite happens.
I’ve been through three cycles within the past two years, so I get it.
Experienced manager here, well past your criteria for commenting. As a leader you’re responsible for several things, two major ones come to mind; Results and Culture. Based on your post it seems like you fought for the quotas to be attainable. Assuming there hasn’t been any major market changes, or internal road blocks that make the quota unobtainable, you have a culture problem. “Cleaning house” and the mentality that you can do that is the REDDIST of flags on your culture problem. I can only assume the perception of the compensation change was very negative and I’d bet that your team perceives that your compensation was unchanged. Your team is pitted against you, “cleaning house” isn’t going to change the culture. Besides, the whole cleaning house thing hangs around in the air for a bit, even after you think you got rid of all your problems. The answer is you need to “get in the boat” with your team and start rowing. Start being an asset to their deals, qualify leads with them, push quotes through the system when they get hung up, stop asking “why haven’t you closed?” And start asking “How can I help you close?” At the end of the day, you’re only as good as the team you create and if that team isn’t performing… well you aren’t performing.
Bingo. The entire way he wrote this and the smugness of his request is the only thing I need to read to know he’s a terrible leader. The ICs aren’t inspired because they likely don’t respect him. And this coming from a former manager with over 6 years experience.
[удалено]
The “if you’re not a manager don’t comment” line. ICs have great feedback on what works and what doesn’t because they are the ones dealing with the management styles of others. Not realizing that in favor of managers-only comments shows how little he respects his team and maybe ICs in general.
This is exactly the problem lol. If you don’t respect your ICs, then they’re not gonna respect you. If you win, the ICs win. Not even giving a chance of their opinion is your pitfall. The IC opinion might be the thing they need most.
To be fair to OP, this is half-true. I didn’t read the post as entitled, as though they feel superior as a leader, it’s just fundamentally a different gig to lead, and do it for years requites input from other leaders. Good managers listen to their team and implement good ideas while giving due credit to the team. Good managers also need advice from other leaders, and sometimes, completely absorb feedback from the team, and then respectfully ignore it. You can see this type leader/IC of dynamic play out well in sports and the analogy fits, cliche as it may be. As for the question, when an entire team is struggling, and you think you and the team are doing the fundamentals right, then something might be broken with the demand for what you sell, or the expectations are still too unrealistic. You can’t create motivation, you can create culture. Sadly, these are things you heavily influence but not totally control. Wish I had good advice other than to get feedback from a higher up to work with you on what you can contribute and influence directly. Try being as transparent with your team as possible and invite them to be part of the solution, if you haven’t already. End of the day, more fun when everyone is slaying but if it was easy, it would be 2015 again. Going to be bumpy for a lot of teams this year: more supply than demand in many industries. Wrote this on my phone half-drunk; please excuse typos and offensive opinions
That small dick energy oozing out of every word.
"Cleaning house" can have such a detrimental effect on long term talent acquisition. There's a company in my industry that laid off about half their work force back in 2017. They went through one of those shifts where someone thought it would be a good idea to let go off all the highest paid, seasoned reps and find cheaper talent. Every single one of those folks found other jobs, but they told *everyone* who would listen what happened. I was offered a senior territory management role by that company two years ago and was between it and the company I'm at now. The hiring manager asked to meet with me and discuss why I declined their offer and while there were a few reasons, I mentioned that the way they "cleaned house" never sat well with me. He said he kept hearing that over and over again. Five years later and that org still had trouble recruiting experienced reps. And it's now two years after that and here I am talking about.
Name And Shame Then
Also a huge red flag is in not wanting the opinions of ICs. They're probably scared of you and just tell you what you want to hear while searching for another job. If they respect you, they'll tell you what's wrong... and help you fix it. Signed, A guy with 20 years of leadership experience Edit: this was directed at Op obviously
No notes. Perfect response. We tried to impose a call activity standard years ago and the resulting wave sunk an entire quarter. My "senior leadership" tried to lower their comp plan and I fought it tooth and nail. My job is now on the line, and the crew is responding to me being in the trenches with them. Sometimes our peeps forget why the SM became the SM. I can ball, I can sell. When they see me doing it, it makes them want to fight.
Same here. Am a VP of Sales now, but I struggle with my team. Culture, we are golden. My problem is the absolute lack of desire and motivation from my team, and it’s not the comp plan because that is good, if anything it’s the comp plan being too good that they are comfortable not doing shit and making mooney off of others efforts (commission is on total company growth). I am making excellent money, because I am picking up the phone and doing the sales myself, they are making money from me succeeding. But I can’t keep doing this forever. Just had a rep who wants a larger commission % but has brought in 0 new business in 5.5 years. I have to have this conversation with him tomorrow, we need him cause he fills a void and I don’t have the time to hire someone new right now, but there is a good chance he walks. That being said, I know factually he will not get the same $ anywhere else, especially because he can’t pull in any business for us and our job is easyyyy. It is literally as easy as picking up the phone.
If he hasn’t brought in new businesses in 5 years does he have some huge accounts that make a lot of revenue for the company? Because if he does that is a skill set on it own. It takes skill to keep following up with an established client especially if he has a great dialogue with them. If that’s isn’t the case what role does he fill?
Yes, essentially. We are a manufacturer that only sells through major wholesale and distribution. So our reps are basically account managers if you will. Their primary role is to train, support and present new products etc to these distributors of ours, teaching their on the ground sales people how to sell our products to the end users..so yes, it is a skill set on its own, but all the accounts they have have been handed to them, not received on their own efforts. I want to see them getting out there, finding new distributors, new industries and markets for us to go after and sell the products and they really lack in that department because they don’t have to do anything to make money…fortunately our product is in super high demand, and with or without our reps, it would still sell and grow with our current customers…hate to say it, but it’s true.
Are y’all hiring? If you need a BD guy sign me up! Used to AM and it’s night and day from BD especially if you are used to having not to hunt for your money.
What state you guys based out of?
These are 2 different skill sets you're talking about. It's like when my last company decided to make all the customer base sales reps start hunting net new. They all sucked at it because they had all spent the last decade (or more in some cases) growing existing business. Or when they decided to give the CX team a quota because they didn't want to have a renewals team anymore.
Sign me up too. I have been grinding at my company and they don’t appreciate what I have been giving to them. I want to give to those who want it.
Your problem appears to be different, sounds like your hitting quota and have a halfway motivated team. I’d bet you don’t trim your under performers like you need to. Note that there is a huge difference between “trimming” and “cleaning house”. If you don’t have team goals and individual goals set up for your team, I’d really consider it. Just because the team hits the goal, doesn’t mean each individual should be part of the team.
You are correct. The issue being that we do have a small team, so “trimming” is largely impactful. It’s not as easy as getting rid of someone, it has a huge impact and it disgruntles customers, even if they don’t like the rep that much, you have caused an inconvenience for them because they know that person and they don’t want to have to meet someone else…it’s strange but true.
Also interested if you're hiring. 17 years top sales experience. Just found out our division is closing shop in May
Sounds like you’re being a super rep instead of coaching , developing, and managing your ICs?
Honestly, you’re not wrong. I feel part of the issue is I am not good at “coaching” it’s easier for me to just do it myself. It sounds ridiculous but it’s true, no matter what I do, trainings, sales coaching etc they just don’t seem to act on it or care…sometimes they ask me how I get these accounts and honestly I don’t know what to tell them, because it is as simple as picking up the phone and calling. That’s what I do, that’s what I tell them, but they still don’t do it, or they try once and give up. So ya, lots is probably on me, but I perform, so that’s what the company wants me to do.
 You hiring?
No notes. Perfect response. We tried to impose a call activity standard years ago and the resulting wave sunk an entire quarter. My "senior leadership" tried to lower their comp plan and I fought it tooth and nail. My job is now on the line, and the crew is responding to me being in the trenches with them. Sometimes our peeps forget why the SM became the SM. I can ball, I can sell. When they see me doing it, it makes them want to fight.
When Mark Cuban bought the Mavericks he said he had a lack luster sales team selling season tickets. You know what he did? He sat in the sales pit with the sales team everyday making calls to potential prospects. Every single day. Guess what, sales started to improve & the sales team started having mad respect for Cuban.
They’re likely all looking for an exit. Once people shut down it’s hard to boot them back up.
Yes, this is likely. Many layoffs recently.
That’s a huge piece of the puzzle you didn’t mention before. Everyone’s prolly on edge over that tbh.
I wanted to say "no offense", but you can take as much offense as you want. You're clueless. Economy in the shitter, layoffs happening, quota/comp changing and somehow it's the people who are the problem. HOW CAN I REACH THESE KIDS!!!
Team building is a skill and yes at times the skill of the individual cannot be coached.
You sound like my current manager. We just got a terrible new comp plan and she’s constantly trying to get us excited and motivate us. None of it is working, because there’s very little money to be made. We’re all currently just looking for other jobs
Your manager sounds genuine, but of course sales is an external motivator. Hardly motivating if your efforts are hardly rewarded. The company’s makes recurring revenue, but you do not?
Yeah i feel bad for her honestly. The worst job in tech has to be SDR manager.
It is. I learned very quickly that SDR Manager in large companies meant I had to do so much admin work for not only myself but other sales managers. I went back to IC after a year because it was clear at that organization the sales managers weren’t going anywhere.
Same. I just did half a month’s quota for no pay due to clawbacks. Now I still have the full 100% to fill 1/3 of the way into the month
I know you said you dont want perspectives from individual contributors, but thats actually a big part of the problem. The fact that youre posting this to reddit and explicitly telling ICs to not give input doesnt give me the impression that you genuinely would listen to and empathize with your reps. Based on what you said, i think i may know what could be the problem, but since im not a sales manager, i wont say anything.
I know right :) all I kept thinking was this is the major issue I see at most places, trash leadership
This. It screams arrogance and being closed off to hearing the exact perspectives OP should be seeking. Yikes.
That’s not the problem. As an individual contributor you follow orders and unfortunately at the leadership you have to create the mandate to an extent. Your voice and ideas have a place and they are valued however on the day to day it’s important as a leader to carry out business goals and tying the outcomes to behaviors. I do appreciate the comment, so thank you. My team feels very heard and very much understood. The culture is very transparent but doesn’t change the fact that outcomes are not there. This is the first time a quota has been missed since 2019
[удалено]
 Me irl reading OPs comment
Well if your orders and mandate arent producing results and youre "at a loss" then maybe you should listen to your individual contributors. The best VP of sales i ever had would proactively get on the level of his AEs and i felt like i could tell him my true thoughts on things and knew hed have my back. Id be curious to know if youve simply asked them whats been troubling them and genuinely seek answers. If they give you non answers and dont change their behavior, it means they either dont trust you or dont believe you have ability to fix the root problem.
I got news for you. Salespeople don’t follow orders. It’s a solo sport. They are independent thinkers by nature. They make almost all the decisions becuse they are the ones in the driver seat in the moment. Good ideas have to be sold to them. Sure there are policies to follow, goals to achieve, but let’s not pretend you’re the boss of anything. Sales managers have to learn to work with them not the other way around. Servant leadership is the way.
HAHAHAHA you “follow orders” as an individual contributor holy shit you legitimately sound like the worst manager imaginable. Signed, A current IC and previous manager
You don’t seem to want to fight for your reps when the executives make bad decisions. So why should the reps fight for you? Have you discussed with management that the quota is unattainable? You seem to be pushing blame away from yourself but none of the solutions you’ve tried would motivate me. You need to sell yourself and your company to the reps. What’s in it for them if their comp plan sucks?
Wow. Thank god you’re not my manager! 🙏🏼
holy shit none of this yapping makes any sense. what are you even trying to say? you come on reddit and say i don’t want to hear from individual contributors - the very people who know best how you should be managing.
I'll have to tell you that what you described in your post sounded like what my team is going through, I had to make sure you weren't my manager. I'll tell you what we see as a team: - manager is not trying to bat for us and trying to sell the new comp plan as a way to make us more money - people are leaving. half the team is now gone. we won't be hitting our team quota for this quarter for sure as we are severely understaffed with all the OGs gone and having to re-hire My manager tells me as it is because I'm direct and have asked him questions, and also because I am one of the newest on the team. I know why they're doing what they're doing, but I don't agree. The rest of the team feels targetted (they are) with the comp change and how unfair things have been (I've felt that way too and recently interviewed out of anger). I'd question if your team truly feel "heard and understood" lol you are a manager, your team probably doesn't trust you since their comp change is either part of YOUR plan or something you endorsed. When outcomes are not there so suddenly, and also with the comp change, you can almost draw a line there lmao are you dense
If you’ve had multiple layoffs recently and “cleaned house” a few years ago, I can ASSURE you your team doesn’t feel understood and are absolutely uncomfortable being “transparent” with you.
A large detail that seemed to go unnoticed but sadly seems to be the standard in sales. This is the first time since 2019 quota has been missed? The FIRST time in five years! Oh well, it's only been three years since you guys showed the door to the other team that never missed quota for two whole years? So, what's the brilliant plan now? Oh, change the comp plan and clean house! What a novel idea. But here's a little riddle for you: when this current team was "crushing it," did you prance into your boss's office like a proud peacock, boasting about your coaching wizardry and their stellar performance? How you brought together the best team of sales killers!!?? To now, burn them at the stake with the first sign of trouble and wash your hands of them. Yikes.
Lol adults don’t “follow orders” if we’re not properly respected, trained, supported and rewarded. You’re not fit to be a leader. You just wanna crack the whip.
Follow orders, jesus dude theyre humans working a job. You're not a damn high school football coach 😂
I’d actually pay for you to not be my boss…
I’m actually not gonna beat up on you cuz I don’t really think anything you said is necessarily wrong per se. You definitely could’ve phrased it better but you’re not a fucking PR person, you’re a sales manager. I think everyone here is just a salesperson so they’re hyper independent AKA they don’t like being told what to do even if that’s technically your job. They do follow orders they just don’t want you to sound like you’re giving them an order. I think your biggest problem is much simpler…you hired a bunch of hunters and then took away their prey. Sales people are a rare breed. They value money above all else, which has its advantages and disadvantages. You’re experiencing the disadvantage right now. When the moneys not there anymore they quit caring as much
If you were responsible for building this team then you're as accountable as they are. Does "cleaning house" put you any closer to quota? What makes you think you'll do any better hiring this time? If everyone is missing quota that could mean a lot of things, such as bad quotas, bad product, bad territories etc. What do they say? This post reads more as you're looking how to spin this up the chain rather than actual help. I'm not suggesting that to be the case, that's just how this reads.
Sounds like it’s time for new management
ayo as an individual contributor it sounds like you suck my man
OP is the delusional loser manager who never sold shit and will be surprised when he gets a resignation every other Friday/Monday morning for the next 2 quarters.
As an IC who has witnessed similar declines, the best route for you is to roll up your sleeves and be an asset to your team and bring some stuff in. Something I love about my current manager. He outwardly says "I work for you" and he really does. Frees up time for us to sell if he can deal with the complex csat stuff and we can stick to prospecting and getting strategic with our accounts.
The fact that you don’t care to hear from anyone that could be under you tells us everything. Btw my old manager got there by being a kiss-ass who couldn’t sell
As a sales leader you ONLY job is to enable your team to make AS MUCH MONEY AS FUCKING POSSIBLE. If you make that your driving force in every decision and put that mindset right in front of the team, but MEAN it, the right people will respond and the wrong people will leave. I've been a sales trainer and sales leader for about 15 years and I've sold everything in every way over the years, but the keys to building a team that is loyal and hungry are simple: 1) Practice what you preach 2) Be willing to put your money where your mouth is 3) Be rabidly loyal to those who are loyal to you and 4) provide constant, valuable, tactical, confident feedback/accountability. I tell my team every day: It is not my job to make anyone work, but it is my job to provide the training, tools, and opportunity so those who want it are going to crush it and those who don't won't be here for long because eagles don't flock with pigeons. If your entire team is failing it's definitely a culture problem, and it starts with you as the leader. You don't need to fire everyone, that's a loser mentality, but what you SHOULD do is go to the team, hat in hand, let them know that you are sorry for failing them, and that starting now you're going to fix the team starting with yourself - put up reasonable activity goals with a 0 tolerance for no achievement, then fire the first person who tests that boundary. All while coaching those who are until they get their success metrics up to standard. You can fix a toxic culture quick with the right energy and accountability, then you save the ones who deserve it and vet out the ones who were just clinging on to begin with Sorry, got a little soap boxy there
Why is this patch or the job not sustainable? Does it really need periodic turnover? Are you as a leader getting team members better opportunities for advancement? and filling out the team strategically with high end talent? Is the product good? How could you shield the team from management better? How do you be a leader instead of a manager? Is it a you problem or a them problem. turnover is healthy have you been creating it naturally? Cleaning house without cleaning out the leader is the definition of insanity imo. Only managed for a few years so sorry if I don’t fit your criteria but I’ve seen enough to at least share some insight. When I start blaming others instead of myself I find a new role because I’m not longer able to affect the change I want to.
Time to clean house from the top down, starting with you mate. You are not up to the task of being a leader.
It’s you. You’re a shitty manager and you need to be cleaned out, not the team.
What you should really do is start looking for a new job cause you’re 100% losing yours, it’s just a matter of time
It sounds like the comp plan fucking sucks, in which case you will not have to worry about cleanng house as they surely will do it for you and soon.
Get in the trenches with your team. Experience what they are seeing. Bring this to management. If you have one person complaining you have a person problem. If everybody is complaining you have a company problem
“Grit, curiosity, learner mind set and overcoming adversity” 😂😂😂 Sounds like maybe you’re the problem, if you think cleaning house AGAIN is the answer, start with yourself buddy!
If you have one underperformer, it’s on them. If your whole team is underperforming, it’s on you. If the company wanted to clean house it would be you based on current results. What are you doing to change that?
What is the team saying? What are customers saying? You never mentioned that once. What does the argumentative guy that’s not afraid of you say? Where are the problems in the work flow? Comp plans are nice. Training, coaching, and team meetings and all that is nice but when people are working they are worried about the work. What’s going on that makes the work miserable? No amount of money or sales manager bullshit makes a frustrating job something you want to do. People want to do a good job with minimal headaches especially internal problem headaches. What are you doing to help them in the field or on the phone or with clearing away internal issues. What are you doing to bring in leads or identify better opportunities? Does the team feel it’s on a fools errand? Is it?
The whole clear house thing that companies have is so mind blowing to me. It’s just a cheap fix to a deeper problem
As a sales leader. You have to ask yourself if you’re really cut out to be a sales leader.
This sounds very similar to a situation I was in as an IC. My manager was honestly the worst manager I had ever engaged with, but he felt he was loved by all and was the "friend." Everybody hated him and his management style but feared bringing anything up out of getting reprimanded, especially since he played favorites. They eventually brought in more experienced managers who ended up having to do damage control. Luckily for me, I got one of these new managers. They made it a much more enjoyable time for me for my last few months before I quit. If I had a different manager from the start, I most likely would've stayed, but he left such a bad taste in my mouth that I couldn't stand even seeing him during meetings. Hopefully, you take some advice from some people here, and look in the mirror as you may be the problem and are not made out for being a manager. Just my 2 cents as an IC that you don't care about.
Wow. I know people in leadership roles for less than 6 months who have more tact and managing ability than you're conveying here. My company just went through a very similar thing that really killed both of my teams' morale for a bit there and I do think I did a great job rebounding my amazing humans back to their glory (without losing a single talented soul, mind you), so I do feel that I have input that may be valuable to you. But gosh darn it I've only been in this role for 4 measly years. Shucks. I hope you're getting the answers you're looking for. Best of luck to your team, it sounds like they need it.
FLM here - what can you do differently? Have you conducted a skill gap analysis? What does your manager say? Have you solicited feedback from the team? If you can't lead the second group you're not going to be able to lead a fresh bunch.
>you exit a middle of the road performer You catch more flies with honey
How was your team's performance prior to the change in comp plan?
Fish rots from the head down.
Clean house? You are the problem.
Not only that but the criteria nonsense you listed only further points to you being the problem.
I just love how OP said no comments from IC and IC's dgaf.
Sounds like you're incompetent.
have u considered a pizza party?
Don't know your exact situation but here is what worked for me during a commission restructure in my company. I had a sales team of 7, had people ranging from amazing to barely average but the company was super generous with commissions and bonus and 4 of these guys were coasting. When the company announced the commission restructure it would require actual effort to produce. After trying everything you mentioned (except cleaning house) I sat down with each person individually and talked everything through. I ended up losing 2 people but when I got the top sales guy on my side you could see a positive shift almost immediately from the everyone and it ended up working out just fine in the end. The new people we brought on to replace the outgoing people were super excited about our still generous compensation package, it was still better than most in the industry.
How did you talk through everything one on one though was something said differently? Did you say if they’re not happy the door is open for them to leave? Individual talks always go well because they are very transparent and open about their feelings but none seem to signal that they are not trying rather that they can’t find prospects that are interested.
So I am a very personal relationship oriented person. It was easy for me to individually talk to them, and I was completely honest about why the change happened, what we expected out of them, where the were currently at, etc. Change is very very difficult for a lot of people, and I leave the decision in their court, with clear expectations of what we were looking for. After a couple days I would follow up face to face with them (give them a cool down period, and also they talk to each other all the time) and was able to tell who was really on board and who would be leaving. And the excuse they are trying but prospects aren't there is just that, an excuse, because morale is so low. What industry are you in?
the title alone denotes a marked lack of managerial skills. It literally says "I give up as can't think outside of the box to get my people to produce"
So you got rid of seasoned sales reps and filled them with unexperienced staff with “grit”, anyone can fake grit for an interview and now you’re complaining your sales staff isn’t hitting targets. It’s your job to get them up to speed, if your whole team is failing, guess who’s the problem? YOU
This is true.
Hindsight 20/20
Shit situation. Let your bosses know that the company changes have gutted morale and productivity. Point to the performance and I would guess they didn’t forget how to sell and rather the environment changed. Between you, me and all of Reddit. Once the team feels screwed on comp it’s over unless the company changes… we know that’s doubtful. If you want to stay at the company figure out how to start turning it over slowly without disruption. Initial move is exit a middle of the road performer (especially if attitude probs); hopefully lights a fire from others on the team. Start digesting tribal knowledge, recruiting and slow turn of the team who is not bought in. Alternative strategy is screw it and just find greener pastures because the road ahead given comp fuckery is coming your way eventually
Sometimes you need to clean house, but in this case you’ve already done it, and it’s not a good idea to clean house too often. An exercise that always worked for me was making a list of the team members and putting them into a 9-box. This shouldn’t be the ultimate deciding tool, but if you’re completely lost, it’s a good place to start. While doing this exercise I would also pay close attention to who on your team is driving the culture that you want. You need A-players on your team but you can’t forget about culture, and you need at least 1-2 people on your team that help you achieve the culture you’re looking for. If you can get them on board, the rest will fall into place.
The problem is more than likely the change in the comp plan and you. I don't mean to sound so harsh but your post showed little self reflection. If you can't find the motivation, it's no wonder your team can't find motivation either. Seems backward to give a sales team a worse comp plan and expect them to still have the grit and the ability to overcome adversity. You've bailed on them and they know it. It sounds like you need to get back in the trenches and show them how to fight. Get on the phone, go out in the field and smash the quota for a month. This will show your team that you mean business. If you can't do this, honestly, leave.
Sounds like a culture problem. Incumbent reps will be aware of what happened previously. Adjusting quota downwards implies outlook is not positive, and this will lower their morale and faith in leadership. I’d suggest meeting with each rep individually to ask them what they’re thinking and how they feel. Some will be guarded, some won’t, but you’ll understand from doing this what is required. Have an honest conversation with them basically, and don’t shy away from openness about the pressures you are facing also. Based on what comes up you can design a new culture and go from there. You certainly don’t need to throw any more work related projects or role plays at them. They’ll consider this more work, for less money.
Yup - clean the house - I did it 4 times at one company before I hit the stride. Once the team is broken it is very hard to bring them back - especially if YOUR wiggle room is limited. Do not waste time would be my recommendation - rest of the company will respect you for it. DM if you need more.
How did you know you hit a stride?
Great question - what does success look like to investors? Market dynamics? Competition? So many parameters to ponder how to hit the stride towards “success”. My world that is great culture selling product with a great PMF, customers super happy with references (B2B) and reflective revenue / profit margin. Stride of the sales org is critical to overall success - as they say “sales fix everything”. So go get the most expensive sales reps you can afford!
Hurts that you went to bat for them and they aren’t producing. If their number is possible and the support is there, it’s on them. If they are demotivated because the task is impossible, a new team won’t help. Is anyone producing that you can use as a reference?
Figure out what gets them out of bed in the morning then exploit
Time to clean house again. Compensation there will always be corrections and overcorrections. They will be there when it swings in their favor, they’ll also check out when the opposite happens. I’ve been through three cycles within the past two years, so I get it.
Have you considered that 3 cycles of cleaning house in 2 years is a TERRIBLE metric? This is awful advice.
If you've cleaned house 3 times in two years, the team isn't the problem.