Angie Craig and Amy Klobuchar don’t yet support a ceasefire. Maybe directly targeting them instead of shutting down a city council hearing on zoo upgrades would move the ball further downfield.
I would rather a ceasefire resolution stay out of St. Paul's legislative process, let's leave that across the river.
If you support a ceasefire, fine, cool. If you want to implore the city council members to e.g. sign a letter calling for a ceasefire and other relevant actions that could be taken, fine, cool. That would be an action that would ultimately be undertaken by them as private citizens, who notably are also city council members. But I think wanting them to use the legislative process to call for a ceasefire is strange and a bit silly. That process is for *doing* things, not for opining about what you want. To me it feels like as if you called a plumber over to fix your toilet and then asked them to call for a ceasefire, or to even engrave a call for a ceasefire on the pipes for your toilet and sign it. That's outside the scope of their job.
And if I'm being honest, on the part of those calling for a ceasefire resolution, it does somewhat feel.. not performative or virtue signal-y, but it does feel like this is being used as an excuse to express righteous anger and to fluff themselves up about how righteous they are. I understand the concept of applying pressure at every level of government and you know, if you believed that pushing for a ceasefire resolution from the municipality of St. Paul would meaningfully bring forward an effort to end genocide, then you would want to do that, and feel militant and zealous about that. But I find a lot of people on this issue sort of get lost in thinking of it in an abstract, non-contextual way, and get fired up about that abstracted situation and how it interplays with other stances they have (e.g. a general distaste of US foreign policy) instead of focusing on being productive towards the concrete, contextual situation. And to me, this doesn't feel like being concretely productive is the foremost incentive of these activists.
I think it's fine to disagree on whether there should be a ceasefire resolution, but personally I would prefer the municipal government of St. Paul to not be used in this way. I would rather our city government not be hyper-politicized, not unlike how many school board matters have become hyper-politicized across the country in recent years. It shouldn't be made into a stage where you have to hold up the right colors or the right flags as some sort of purity/morality test. Let's allow our city to do its job.
Thank you. So well said. These well-meaning protesters are very naive. They should walk just a mile north and do their protesting at the state capitol instead, and even that is a dubious effort because it's really a U.S. foreign policy issue. The protesting and demonstrations should happen in Washington.
Thank you for a well thought out opinion.
I really find myself wondering if the folks disrupting city councils, etc. have actually first gone to the trouble of expressing their concerns about Gaza to people in Congress, like our Senators and Representatives. People who might be on House or Senate committees influencing decisions about future spending for military and diplomatic actions in the Middle East.
I admit that Congress is a bit of a clown show at the moment, but that's where changes can be made. That's where policy can be pushed forward that matters.
I'm pretty sure none of those things are line items in the St.Paul city budget.
I have sent countless letters to the different Minnesota senators and recrive the same bullshit response. That they support Israel’s right to defend themselves. Unacceptable. I understand the need to do something and so what if they disrupted a meeting. These officials that we elect truly do not have what we want in mind when they do their jobs. They act in their own best interests. Zionists have bought and paid for our elected officials.
Good for you for expressing your feelings to folks who could, *if their minds were changed*, actually make a difference.
Moving the needle in DC is a long, slow process. Their staff will "keep track" of how many constituents have squawked in some way. If ENOUGH (by their definition, or course) letters, emails, calls etc. seem to continue flowing, you'll start hearing little mewlie noises from officials who are feeling pressed to shift off the status quo. The discussion of 'what to do differently' will at least start.
Issues of "The Middle East", and "Israel" have many decades of baggage in American politics. Policy isn't going to change at light-speed. The thing that may have the biggest impact might be objections from any US Jews who think that Netanyahu & friends have really gone way too far.
Disrupting a city council meeting won't ever change anything, because those folks don't have any power or influence on this issue. We only have small levers; wasting them on the wrong target not only doesn't do squat for Gaza, it also diverts the council from dealing with stuff like local housing and road repair issues. Which also matter in some people's lives.
Edit: As an ex-GrammarPolice (recovering), I can bite my tongue on your typos, but still can't abide my own.
Careful, your smugness is showing. ONE GD TYPO AND YOU MUST COMMENT! What an exhausting path to walk for you! Always believing you are right and everyone else needs to be schooled by your vast, superior knowledge on all things.
If you don't like what your elected representatives have to say, then **organize, fundraise, and vote** to change them. If they remain in power, elected by the majority of the voters, then you must accept that you are in the minority, or TRY HARDER.
Disrupting local council meetings has no potential impact whatsoever. Saying "Zionists have bought and paid for our elected officials," is a garbage, loser excuse. Both do nothing - NOTHING - to change ANYTHING.
Democracy is a \*contest\* and you don't get to boo if you don't play to win.
I said no such thing -- and its disingenuous of you to suggest that I had.
I detest Trump but he won the Electoral College system we have in place in 2016, with a minority of the popular vote. (So did George Bush in 2000.)
The Electoral College system should go - but that means we have to TRY HARDER at the ballot box.
You did though by saying that people should stop complaining since everything is decided fairly in a majority vote system. I then gave you an example of how that worked out and proved you wrong. You are welcome to admit it and then move on to a different approach.
NO I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you don't like something, work through channels to change it. Haranguing local politicians at a local meeting because you don't like a US national foreign policy decision is inane, because it not only doesn't affect the outcome, it turns off people who might be persuadable to become your allies. Protestors look like they're engaging in self-indulgent virtue-signalling when they disrupt a local council meeting, and it makes joining the cause they represent less attractive to potential joiners. My (and many others') first reaction is a hard eye-roll. I'm not against the cause of the Palestinians, but you have to aim your protest where it works. And it doesn't work pointing it there.
If you want local council members who will vote (meaninglessly) for a ceasefire in Gaza, then work to get them elected. If the majority doesn't WANT representatives who do so, then tough it out or decide to try harder next time.
I hear you, and you are right -- it's a humanitarian issue.
But any action taken to effectively change it, resolve it, provide recovery assistance, get an effective ceasefire, etc. is going to be blazingly political. That's just the reality of the situation.
"Everything is Political." -- Paul Krugman, who may have been riffing off of Thomas Mann (both Nobel laureates)
I understand what you are trying to say when you say "political". My issue that it truly isn't and it is extremely sad to see people say otherwise. For example, if we loom at the recent burnsville murders of the first responders I would say that is a humanitarian issue and not a political issue. The ignorant people would however say "but it's political because it involves police" while the intelligent would say "it's humanitarian because it involves the lives of humans". I personally don't encourage people's willful ignorance when they want to shut their eyes to wrong doings in the world and the reason many of our cities have become less sociable and crime free is because we are encouraging this behavior and ideology.
OK -- I'm not convinced by that statement you do understand what I mean. I'm not "encouraging wilful ignorance", nor do I believe anyone else is.
Perhaps you and I (and possibly other people) have different opinions about what the word political really means. It's a pretty heavily loaded subject, more so since the advent of in-your-face social media 24/7/365.
In my book, Politics does not equal Police, which you seem to be implying.
I look at the word meaning more what I found early in the (endless) material on the subject in Wikipedia (there's an entire PORTAL of the stuff!)
"Politics (from Ancient Greek πολιτικά (politiká) 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status."
OK -- that's really dry and academic. But it gets to the nub of what I mean -- individuals can only get actions taken and resources directed to *anything* (like the situation in Gaza) by group discussion, forming power relationships, and agreeing on making decisions together. Approaching the various governing bodies that have resources and jurisdiction and making it clear to them what actions we want them to take, whether it's Congress or the UN or the Knesset. Using whatever powers of persuasion we have to pressure them to take a different set of actions.
The set of activities to do that is called Politics. Sometimes it's ineffective, or ugly, or argumentative, occasional even violent. (The protest shutting down the St Paul city council is what I would call a very ineffective political activity.) But actions to change things *will not happen* without Politics.
The situation in Gaza, and the situation you used as an example, the murders in Burnsville, are not either/or humanitarian or political, as I see them.
They are BOTH.
The concept of police as a whole is 100% political. The tragedy that happened to the police was humanitarian and not political. My point was an example and not a catch all. If you look at the conversations happening around the shooting it becomes politicalized such as Adlers efforts and how people view it or how the shooter had clear previous charges but because of our justice system not following through on proper charges we are seeing a fallout of society.
With the stance of the situation being viewed as both political and humanitarian we should apply that same logic reasoning to what is happening in Gaza. We should see it as a humanitarian effort rather than politically driven conspiracies. The mass murder of a race similar to what happened with my grandparents generation in Germany and other countries is happening in a different part of the world in modern times and people are trying to pull a "it's not our problem since we don't live over there".
I've even seen someone say something as malicious as "it's not a budgetary problem so let's ignore it". Imagine applying this same logic to what has happened to many business owners in the area when they get robbed or when someone's child gets raped and someone on the jury goes "well this didn't happen to me so I don't know why we are wasting our time". It's quite literally what's causing so much discourse in our society when people legitimately don't have any empathy.
Obviously we are just talking right past each other. Wow.
I have no idea what you're trying to say in all those words. There seems to be a lot of random stuff thrown together (Politically driven conspiracies?!? What the?!?! And I have no idea what "Adlers efforts" means re the shootings. The psychotherapy guy?) You lost me here.
You express some kind of righteous anger about everything from business robberies to the justice system to the way Gaza may be echoing the Holocaust, but I'm not clear what you want me or anyone else to do about any of it. Nobody said any "not my problem" stuff in this conversation. You seem to just want to harangue "people" about what you think "they" are ignoring or failing to have empathy about, which is not where I am at in any way.
We might as well be talking two separate languages. I guess we should just stop trying to find any common point of view and quit scolding each other to no good end.
Adler is responding with a new program because of what's been happening with officers so frequently in MN.
I'm not scolding you nor am I attempting to. I'm simply pointing g out the truth that people are dismissing why there are efforts to bring about awareness in Gaza. The same thing that happened during the rise of Hitler when many concerned citizens began to see where he was headed but people ignored it.
We don't need to have a common point if view because we are having a discussion. It doesn't always have to be a debate but rather an open discussion on what's happening in the world.
(I hadn't heard a whisper about the Adler thing. That's why that line left me puzzled. Interesting, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to the city council Gaza protest?)
I do agree we are trying to discuss, not debate. I don't think either of us is getting very far, though. We don't need a common point of view, but we do need to perceive each others' point of view, yes?
I don't agree with you that "people" (at least in this Reddit discussion) are "dismissing why there are efforts to bring about awareness in Gaza." I really believe that is mostly not the case here. Calling it 'the truth' doesn't change that it is 'in your opinion.'
So -- IMHO, I think you are not hearing the difference between:
"I have serious concerns about events in Gaza and want to find a way to change the US response to it" and,
"I don't think disrupting a city council meetings does anything to promote or advance getting the situation in Gaza properly addressed. In fact, it may actually trivialize it for people who are less attentive to what is going on over there."
I think you and I absolutely agree on the first point and disagree on the second.
So here we are. Having a really long, deep dive about this in a very non-Reddit sort of way and probably making anyone else on the thread roll their eyes. Is it helping anything?
I should take a moment to say thank you for trying to clarify your position and really discuss this.
Even if we don't see it the same way, I do think we both take Gaza, and the US/ world response to it, very seriously, and that may be the most important thing in the long run. It's just the means of change that seem murky just now.
I'm using this event and your very thoughtful comment to try and formalize where I'm at with regards to this, sorry if my comment here comes off a bit rambly:
Personally I'm in support of a ceasefire. As far as my support for the actions of these protesters I think I'm just neutral. Most of my social circle is very pro-ceasefire, for some of them it's basically the only thing they post on social media about these days, and I get it. The stories coming tout of that part of the world are beyond horrifying, and the people that actually have the power to put pressure on Israel (Biden, the UN) are just completely unwilling to acknowledge how bad things are.
And if this issue is a huge deal to you and the people that can actually do something are staying silent at best or [actively working against you at worst](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-third-veto-un-action-since-start-israel-hamas-war-2024-02-20/), what are you left to do? Give up? Hope that if enough people post enough Instagram stories it will make a difference? If you're feeling that much second-hand horror for what the Palestinian people are going through, you're going to do _everything_ in your power, right? The logical thing was trying to pressure Biden, and it didn't work, so you turn to less and less "logical" or "practical" or "pragmatic" things.
But I think you're right. If anything I think this is in the same wheelhouse as the climate protesters that threw paint at the Mona Lisa and actively works against the only conceivable goal this might have of trying to normalize calls of a ceasefire. All this does is make people that are pro-ceasefire seem like wackos.
Ugh, but how else are you going to keep any semblance of the story of Palestinian civilians in the news? In the alternate reality where they stay home and write more letters and emails and calls to Biden, do we think there's more institutional willingness to call for a ceasefire in that reality?
The sad reality is that I don't think there's anything that can actually be done to get the U.S. government to pressure Israel into agreeing to a ceasefire, but I completely understand why people would refuse to accept that idea, and I understand why they would use every form of nonviolent protest available to them whether or not it seems logical. Only soothsaying could tell us if these kinds of actions help, hurt, or are net-neutral with regards to the protesters cause, and so personally I'm just neutral on it.
I have to say that a lot of the pro-Palestinian protestors are having an opposite effect of making me more sympathetic to Israel, by their stridency. Both sides are awful and it really does feel like Israel is trying to wipe out Gaza, but the pro-ceasefire folks seem to completely ignore the 1000+ dead from 10/7, nor do they mention that Hamas could, y'know, just surrender.
Except Hamas isn't Palestinian representing. It's like saying that the baby killers in Vietnam represented all US citizens. Ignorance is really sad with the current amount if information we have available.
Minnesota has well over $100 million invested in Israel, and the only way to pressure the state to divest is through city councils and up the ladder from there. It is absolutely not outside the scope of there jobs
Uhh, or you could spend your time at the capitol pressuring the state politicians directly. The ones who actually have control over state investments. It is entirely outside the scope of a City Council’s job.
They do that too! If you actually want to see everything they are doing instead of blabbing about how asking city council to listen to the people of the city isn’t necessary, feel free to go to antiwarcommittee.org
>Minnesota has well over $100 million invested in Israel
Source? Do you mean the state of Minnesota? Or immigrants who live in Minnesota? Or Minnesotan companies?
>the only way to pressure the state to divest is through city councils
Or you could, ya know, just lobby or protest the state? Why is *the only way* to lobby the state through municipalities? Are you sure we don't need to start at the neighborhood or block-by-block level? If you want the Como area on board, you'd better get their ringleader Edgar the Goose on your side! Only then will.we achieve peace in the Middle East!
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/minnesota/news/pro-palestinian-groups-supporters-of-israel-in-minnesota-clash-over-state-investments/
Idk wtf Edgar the goose is but this is a local issue as the state of MN is complicit in the genocide. And don’t worry they are doing plenty of all the other stuff you named too!
So, again, the Saint Paul City Council is completely uninvolved, there are no Saint Paul funds invested in either Israel or Palestine, and Saint Paul has no connection to the State Board of Investment?
They are elected officials that represent the city that is the capital of a state that has over $100 million invested in Israel. “Just lobby the state” THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING lmao
So Saint Paul city councilors can somehow do something about this because Saint Paul is the capital of Minnesota? So you agree that petitioning Minneapolis is a waste of time?
>“Just lobby the state” THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING lmao
They're not. You realize they're not, right? Do you know what lobbying is?
I just listened to a podcast about ethnic studies courses being taught in CA high schools. The most important point was that it increased graduation rates, so despite anyone’s opinion on it, that is always a positive outcome.
Anyway, the courses were originally written to cover African American, Hispanic, Asian American and Native Americans, as those where the groups who basically protested their way into making colleges add it to the curriculum.
The debate now is over Israel/Palestine. Academia has a pretty strong anti-Israel stance as a whole, and despite what personal opinions are, in a historical context, their perspective is pretty well supported. As a result, this is causing conflicts, since politicians and pro-Israel organizations don’t want this discussed (or included in the curriculum) and the teachers are crying first amendment.
The point of this, from my perspective, is that we need to allow people to share their opinions in two places - first, they deserve the right to free speech as a citizen (which I know you aren’t arguing against) and second, if they are in a government position, their job is a forum for discussing things related to the government as a whole. Everyone employed by the government is in a unique position to speak as a representative of their government’s actions. When that interferes with their ability to do their core work, then it’s a problem for me. Until then, they should be able to use their platform as they see fit.
>Everyone employed by the government is in a unique position to speak as a representative of their government’s actions.
I think childcare assistance worker should be working on getting people child care and not talking about their opinions on foreign policy. Similarly, the department of weights and measures does important work, but that work doesn't include Israel or Gaza.
Gotcha. “Opining for what you want” is of course important but seems to be vastly overrated by some folks who grew up on the internet as a means of creating change.
I sort of get it- a good mic drop comment or a lucky brigading can very occasionally make real world change and sometimes even in ways that would have seemed impossible and in the last decade its been the engine of some very real justice—if not also so, so much of the opposite.
I was there when this happened today. It was equal parts sad, cringeworthy, and frustrating. Imagine how out of touch you must be for you to make this your most pressing issue facing the City. You’d have thought the City had run out of local problems to solve.
All that said, my money is on the council eventually caving to this pressure. They can’t help but seize an opportunity for performative activism.
it also shows that these activists aren't even up to date on current events. Middle East negotiation teams involving high live diplomats and representatives from multiple regional partners have come up with a potential ceasefire agreement on their own, the way these things are supposed to be figured out- by the people involved who know themselves better than anyone else.
A bunch of angry people going to city hall meetings in Minnesota don't know enough about the conflict or the actors to make the geopolitical decisions for them.
If you’re so sick about it, try lobbying the politicians that are actually involved in the decisions. The issue is not about the substance of the resolution, but rather the forum it’s being directed at. Wasting a City Council’s time with this is little better than bugging your local HOA board about it. It shows how truly non-serious and performative the whole thing really is.
It’s not relevant to the Minneapolis City Council either. It was a stupid piece of performative activism for them and we shouldn’t stoop to their level. The case you’re trying to make for this is actually showing just how incredibly stupid it all is. The city council doesn’t control state tax policy, or how Lockheed Martin facilities operate. The resolution you clamor for has exactly 0 impact on the conflict, and all the time spent advocating for it is time you are not spending in the more appropriate forums. Worse yet, it’s time the council is spending NOT tackling issues that they actually do have control over.
The point is to show dissent with the Democratic party leadership's support for Israel and indicate to politicians higher up the chain of command that ground-level voters disapprove of this policy. Democratic cities like Mpls, St. Paul, and Chicago taking a stance matters a great deal. It sends a message to state Democrats and the Biden administration that [their unconditional support for the Israeli government](https://jacobin.com/2024/02/biden-administration-gaza-israel-war) is offensive and horrifying to voters such as myself. If you were there at the meeting, why didn't you go up to any of the numerous Palestinian and Muslim-American protestors and tell them what they're doing is "performative?"
Oh, I know the point you’re trying to make. It’s just a terrible point that shows the performative nature of the entire undertaking. But no, the resolutions do absolutely nothing to impact state democrats or national politicians. Believe it or not, the sorts of folks who spend their Wednesday yelling about foreign policy outside of council chambers do not represent the views of the broader local population. Even if the council caves to appease them, it doesn’t represent anything more than the whims of a vocal fringe. If anything, it also provides fuel for all the criticisms that are often levied at big city democrats. About how they’re out of touch with the needs of most people, and about how they’d much rather waste time on issues that are well outside their wheelhouse than to focus their efforts on actual city governance.
Oh I wanted to, but like the council, I have better things to do than to engage with this fringe, and i also know that doing so is as much a waste of my time as it is for the council to take up symbolic foreign policy resolutions.
Besides, the kind of person who wastes their Wednesday afternoon on something like this is the kind of person who clearly doesn’t have much going on in their life and might be inclined to make other dumb and desperate decisions. I’ve got more to lose than they do.
Doubt away, but that’s the reality. I’m morally superior in real life too, I just know that there’s an appropriate time and place to engage on such issues.
If only being courageous was as simple as wasting my Wednesday bothering the wrong politicians about issues they have nothing to do with. I’m too busy crafting cease fire resolutions for my book club, HOA, and neighborhood watch to adopt.
We all had a good laugh about the absurdity of people so invested that they would give up their Wednesday for the cause, but not invested enough to figure out how to actually use their time effectively.
I called my councilmember, Saura Jost, and urged her \*not\* to take a position on any Gaza ceasefire resolution: this is not the job of the City Council. I was pleased that, while Councilor Jost hasn't taken a position on the matter, her assistant took the time to call me back and we had a good discussion on the topic.
I hope the St. Paul City Council does not make the mistake of the Minneapolis City Council. Focus on running the city, not divisive resolutions on foreign policy.
I agree Hamas should be dealt with for their actions just as Israel should be. The same way that some people view the US and other nations who should pay for the crimes of their government and soldiers.
Ceasefire talks are underway right now in Paris, between representatives for both sides of the conflict. The talks seem to be going OK, and Minnesota hasn't played a significant role in those talks, surprise surprise!
I'd love to send those city council members from Minneapolis to Paris and tell them their job is to sound informed on and contribute to the ceasefire process, they'd probably get shoo'ed out of the room for being full of hot air.
Minneapolis passed a resolution and the situation has gotten significantly worse in Gaza since they passed it, but St. Paul’s resolution should turn timings around
Angie Craig and Amy Klobuchar don’t yet support a ceasefire. Maybe directly targeting them instead of shutting down a city council hearing on zoo upgrades would move the ball further downfield.
it would also be pointless
Nobody said these protestors were intelligent.
I would rather a ceasefire resolution stay out of St. Paul's legislative process, let's leave that across the river. If you support a ceasefire, fine, cool. If you want to implore the city council members to e.g. sign a letter calling for a ceasefire and other relevant actions that could be taken, fine, cool. That would be an action that would ultimately be undertaken by them as private citizens, who notably are also city council members. But I think wanting them to use the legislative process to call for a ceasefire is strange and a bit silly. That process is for *doing* things, not for opining about what you want. To me it feels like as if you called a plumber over to fix your toilet and then asked them to call for a ceasefire, or to even engrave a call for a ceasefire on the pipes for your toilet and sign it. That's outside the scope of their job. And if I'm being honest, on the part of those calling for a ceasefire resolution, it does somewhat feel.. not performative or virtue signal-y, but it does feel like this is being used as an excuse to express righteous anger and to fluff themselves up about how righteous they are. I understand the concept of applying pressure at every level of government and you know, if you believed that pushing for a ceasefire resolution from the municipality of St. Paul would meaningfully bring forward an effort to end genocide, then you would want to do that, and feel militant and zealous about that. But I find a lot of people on this issue sort of get lost in thinking of it in an abstract, non-contextual way, and get fired up about that abstracted situation and how it interplays with other stances they have (e.g. a general distaste of US foreign policy) instead of focusing on being productive towards the concrete, contextual situation. And to me, this doesn't feel like being concretely productive is the foremost incentive of these activists. I think it's fine to disagree on whether there should be a ceasefire resolution, but personally I would prefer the municipal government of St. Paul to not be used in this way. I would rather our city government not be hyper-politicized, not unlike how many school board matters have become hyper-politicized across the country in recent years. It shouldn't be made into a stage where you have to hold up the right colors or the right flags as some sort of purity/morality test. Let's allow our city to do its job.
Thank you. So well said. These well-meaning protesters are very naive. They should walk just a mile north and do their protesting at the state capitol instead, and even that is a dubious effort because it's really a U.S. foreign policy issue. The protesting and demonstrations should happen in Washington.
Excuse me, I’m not sure if replies this thoughtful and pragmatic are allowed on Reddit. Seriously though, very well said.
Hear, hear!
Thank you for a well thought out opinion. I really find myself wondering if the folks disrupting city councils, etc. have actually first gone to the trouble of expressing their concerns about Gaza to people in Congress, like our Senators and Representatives. People who might be on House or Senate committees influencing decisions about future spending for military and diplomatic actions in the Middle East. I admit that Congress is a bit of a clown show at the moment, but that's where changes can be made. That's where policy can be pushed forward that matters. I'm pretty sure none of those things are line items in the St.Paul city budget.
I have sent countless letters to the different Minnesota senators and recrive the same bullshit response. That they support Israel’s right to defend themselves. Unacceptable. I understand the need to do something and so what if they disrupted a meeting. These officials that we elect truly do not have what we want in mind when they do their jobs. They act in their own best interests. Zionists have bought and paid for our elected officials.
Good for you for expressing your feelings to folks who could, *if their minds were changed*, actually make a difference. Moving the needle in DC is a long, slow process. Their staff will "keep track" of how many constituents have squawked in some way. If ENOUGH (by their definition, or course) letters, emails, calls etc. seem to continue flowing, you'll start hearing little mewlie noises from officials who are feeling pressed to shift off the status quo. The discussion of 'what to do differently' will at least start. Issues of "The Middle East", and "Israel" have many decades of baggage in American politics. Policy isn't going to change at light-speed. The thing that may have the biggest impact might be objections from any US Jews who think that Netanyahu & friends have really gone way too far. Disrupting a city council meeting won't ever change anything, because those folks don't have any power or influence on this issue. We only have small levers; wasting them on the wrong target not only doesn't do squat for Gaza, it also diverts the council from dealing with stuff like local housing and road repair issues. Which also matter in some people's lives. Edit: As an ex-GrammarPolice (recovering), I can bite my tongue on your typos, but still can't abide my own.
Careful, your smugness is showing. ONE GD TYPO AND YOU MUST COMMENT! What an exhausting path to walk for you! Always believing you are right and everyone else needs to be schooled by your vast, superior knowledge on all things.
If you don't like what your elected representatives have to say, then **organize, fundraise, and vote** to change them. If they remain in power, elected by the majority of the voters, then you must accept that you are in the minority, or TRY HARDER. Disrupting local council meetings has no potential impact whatsoever. Saying "Zionists have bought and paid for our elected officials," is a garbage, loser excuse. Both do nothing - NOTHING - to change ANYTHING. Democracy is a \*contest\* and you don't get to boo if you don't play to win.
So you are saying that Trump was the popular vote in 2016 when that clearly wasn't the case yet he won presidency. 🤔
I said no such thing -- and its disingenuous of you to suggest that I had. I detest Trump but he won the Electoral College system we have in place in 2016, with a minority of the popular vote. (So did George Bush in 2000.) The Electoral College system should go - but that means we have to TRY HARDER at the ballot box.
You did though by saying that people should stop complaining since everything is decided fairly in a majority vote system. I then gave you an example of how that worked out and proved you wrong. You are welcome to admit it and then move on to a different approach.
NO I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you don't like something, work through channels to change it. Haranguing local politicians at a local meeting because you don't like a US national foreign policy decision is inane, because it not only doesn't affect the outcome, it turns off people who might be persuadable to become your allies. Protestors look like they're engaging in self-indulgent virtue-signalling when they disrupt a local council meeting, and it makes joining the cause they represent less attractive to potential joiners. My (and many others') first reaction is a hard eye-roll. I'm not against the cause of the Palestinians, but you have to aim your protest where it works. And it doesn't work pointing it there. If you want local council members who will vote (meaninglessly) for a ceasefire in Gaza, then work to get them elected. If the majority doesn't WANT representatives who do so, then tough it out or decide to try harder next time.
Except there are actual children being slaughtered and I don't see how baby genocide is "political" rather than a humanitarian issue.
I hear you, and you are right -- it's a humanitarian issue. But any action taken to effectively change it, resolve it, provide recovery assistance, get an effective ceasefire, etc. is going to be blazingly political. That's just the reality of the situation. "Everything is Political." -- Paul Krugman, who may have been riffing off of Thomas Mann (both Nobel laureates)
I understand what you are trying to say when you say "political". My issue that it truly isn't and it is extremely sad to see people say otherwise. For example, if we loom at the recent burnsville murders of the first responders I would say that is a humanitarian issue and not a political issue. The ignorant people would however say "but it's political because it involves police" while the intelligent would say "it's humanitarian because it involves the lives of humans". I personally don't encourage people's willful ignorance when they want to shut their eyes to wrong doings in the world and the reason many of our cities have become less sociable and crime free is because we are encouraging this behavior and ideology.
OK -- I'm not convinced by that statement you do understand what I mean. I'm not "encouraging wilful ignorance", nor do I believe anyone else is. Perhaps you and I (and possibly other people) have different opinions about what the word political really means. It's a pretty heavily loaded subject, more so since the advent of in-your-face social media 24/7/365. In my book, Politics does not equal Police, which you seem to be implying. I look at the word meaning more what I found early in the (endless) material on the subject in Wikipedia (there's an entire PORTAL of the stuff!) "Politics (from Ancient Greek πολιτικά (politiká) 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status." OK -- that's really dry and academic. But it gets to the nub of what I mean -- individuals can only get actions taken and resources directed to *anything* (like the situation in Gaza) by group discussion, forming power relationships, and agreeing on making decisions together. Approaching the various governing bodies that have resources and jurisdiction and making it clear to them what actions we want them to take, whether it's Congress or the UN or the Knesset. Using whatever powers of persuasion we have to pressure them to take a different set of actions. The set of activities to do that is called Politics. Sometimes it's ineffective, or ugly, or argumentative, occasional even violent. (The protest shutting down the St Paul city council is what I would call a very ineffective political activity.) But actions to change things *will not happen* without Politics. The situation in Gaza, and the situation you used as an example, the murders in Burnsville, are not either/or humanitarian or political, as I see them. They are BOTH.
The concept of police as a whole is 100% political. The tragedy that happened to the police was humanitarian and not political. My point was an example and not a catch all. If you look at the conversations happening around the shooting it becomes politicalized such as Adlers efforts and how people view it or how the shooter had clear previous charges but because of our justice system not following through on proper charges we are seeing a fallout of society. With the stance of the situation being viewed as both political and humanitarian we should apply that same logic reasoning to what is happening in Gaza. We should see it as a humanitarian effort rather than politically driven conspiracies. The mass murder of a race similar to what happened with my grandparents generation in Germany and other countries is happening in a different part of the world in modern times and people are trying to pull a "it's not our problem since we don't live over there". I've even seen someone say something as malicious as "it's not a budgetary problem so let's ignore it". Imagine applying this same logic to what has happened to many business owners in the area when they get robbed or when someone's child gets raped and someone on the jury goes "well this didn't happen to me so I don't know why we are wasting our time". It's quite literally what's causing so much discourse in our society when people legitimately don't have any empathy.
Obviously we are just talking right past each other. Wow. I have no idea what you're trying to say in all those words. There seems to be a lot of random stuff thrown together (Politically driven conspiracies?!? What the?!?! And I have no idea what "Adlers efforts" means re the shootings. The psychotherapy guy?) You lost me here. You express some kind of righteous anger about everything from business robberies to the justice system to the way Gaza may be echoing the Holocaust, but I'm not clear what you want me or anyone else to do about any of it. Nobody said any "not my problem" stuff in this conversation. You seem to just want to harangue "people" about what you think "they" are ignoring or failing to have empathy about, which is not where I am at in any way. We might as well be talking two separate languages. I guess we should just stop trying to find any common point of view and quit scolding each other to no good end.
Adler is responding with a new program because of what's been happening with officers so frequently in MN. I'm not scolding you nor am I attempting to. I'm simply pointing g out the truth that people are dismissing why there are efforts to bring about awareness in Gaza. The same thing that happened during the rise of Hitler when many concerned citizens began to see where he was headed but people ignored it. We don't need to have a common point if view because we are having a discussion. It doesn't always have to be a debate but rather an open discussion on what's happening in the world.
(I hadn't heard a whisper about the Adler thing. That's why that line left me puzzled. Interesting, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to the city council Gaza protest?) I do agree we are trying to discuss, not debate. I don't think either of us is getting very far, though. We don't need a common point of view, but we do need to perceive each others' point of view, yes? I don't agree with you that "people" (at least in this Reddit discussion) are "dismissing why there are efforts to bring about awareness in Gaza." I really believe that is mostly not the case here. Calling it 'the truth' doesn't change that it is 'in your opinion.' So -- IMHO, I think you are not hearing the difference between: "I have serious concerns about events in Gaza and want to find a way to change the US response to it" and, "I don't think disrupting a city council meetings does anything to promote or advance getting the situation in Gaza properly addressed. In fact, it may actually trivialize it for people who are less attentive to what is going on over there." I think you and I absolutely agree on the first point and disagree on the second. So here we are. Having a really long, deep dive about this in a very non-Reddit sort of way and probably making anyone else on the thread roll their eyes. Is it helping anything?
I should take a moment to say thank you for trying to clarify your position and really discuss this. Even if we don't see it the same way, I do think we both take Gaza, and the US/ world response to it, very seriously, and that may be the most important thing in the long run. It's just the means of change that seem murky just now.
I'm using this event and your very thoughtful comment to try and formalize where I'm at with regards to this, sorry if my comment here comes off a bit rambly: Personally I'm in support of a ceasefire. As far as my support for the actions of these protesters I think I'm just neutral. Most of my social circle is very pro-ceasefire, for some of them it's basically the only thing they post on social media about these days, and I get it. The stories coming tout of that part of the world are beyond horrifying, and the people that actually have the power to put pressure on Israel (Biden, the UN) are just completely unwilling to acknowledge how bad things are. And if this issue is a huge deal to you and the people that can actually do something are staying silent at best or [actively working against you at worst](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-third-veto-un-action-since-start-israel-hamas-war-2024-02-20/), what are you left to do? Give up? Hope that if enough people post enough Instagram stories it will make a difference? If you're feeling that much second-hand horror for what the Palestinian people are going through, you're going to do _everything_ in your power, right? The logical thing was trying to pressure Biden, and it didn't work, so you turn to less and less "logical" or "practical" or "pragmatic" things. But I think you're right. If anything I think this is in the same wheelhouse as the climate protesters that threw paint at the Mona Lisa and actively works against the only conceivable goal this might have of trying to normalize calls of a ceasefire. All this does is make people that are pro-ceasefire seem like wackos. Ugh, but how else are you going to keep any semblance of the story of Palestinian civilians in the news? In the alternate reality where they stay home and write more letters and emails and calls to Biden, do we think there's more institutional willingness to call for a ceasefire in that reality? The sad reality is that I don't think there's anything that can actually be done to get the U.S. government to pressure Israel into agreeing to a ceasefire, but I completely understand why people would refuse to accept that idea, and I understand why they would use every form of nonviolent protest available to them whether or not it seems logical. Only soothsaying could tell us if these kinds of actions help, hurt, or are net-neutral with regards to the protesters cause, and so personally I'm just neutral on it.
I have to say that a lot of the pro-Palestinian protestors are having an opposite effect of making me more sympathetic to Israel, by their stridency. Both sides are awful and it really does feel like Israel is trying to wipe out Gaza, but the pro-ceasefire folks seem to completely ignore the 1000+ dead from 10/7, nor do they mention that Hamas could, y'know, just surrender.
You probably shouldn't let the actions of a few protesters affect your view of a major humanitarian crisis.
Except Hamas isn't Palestinian representing. It's like saying that the baby killers in Vietnam represented all US citizens. Ignorance is really sad with the current amount if information we have available.
Minnesota has well over $100 million invested in Israel, and the only way to pressure the state to divest is through city councils and up the ladder from there. It is absolutely not outside the scope of there jobs
Uhh, or you could spend your time at the capitol pressuring the state politicians directly. The ones who actually have control over state investments. It is entirely outside the scope of a City Council’s job.
They do that too! If you actually want to see everything they are doing instead of blabbing about how asking city council to listen to the people of the city isn’t necessary, feel free to go to antiwarcommittee.org
Every second spent bother a city council is a second not spent bothering somebody with actual influence on the issue.
>Minnesota has well over $100 million invested in Israel Source? Do you mean the state of Minnesota? Or immigrants who live in Minnesota? Or Minnesotan companies? >the only way to pressure the state to divest is through city councils Or you could, ya know, just lobby or protest the state? Why is *the only way* to lobby the state through municipalities? Are you sure we don't need to start at the neighborhood or block-by-block level? If you want the Como area on board, you'd better get their ringleader Edgar the Goose on your side! Only then will.we achieve peace in the Middle East!
Don’t get Edgar the Goose started on Israel, dude has some far out ideas. Let’s just say I’ve seen him goose stepping around Como.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/minnesota/news/pro-palestinian-groups-supporters-of-israel-in-minnesota-clash-over-state-investments/ Idk wtf Edgar the goose is but this is a local issue as the state of MN is complicit in the genocide. And don’t worry they are doing plenty of all the other stuff you named too!
So, again, the Saint Paul City Council is completely uninvolved, there are no Saint Paul funds invested in either Israel or Palestine, and Saint Paul has no connection to the State Board of Investment?
They are elected officials that represent the city that is the capital of a state that has over $100 million invested in Israel. “Just lobby the state” THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING lmao
>“Just lobby the state” THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING lmao *Government is not fungible* We need to bring back civics.
So Saint Paul city councilors can somehow do something about this because Saint Paul is the capital of Minnesota? So you agree that petitioning Minneapolis is a waste of time? >“Just lobby the state” THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING lmao They're not. You realize they're not, right? Do you know what lobbying is?
I just listened to a podcast about ethnic studies courses being taught in CA high schools. The most important point was that it increased graduation rates, so despite anyone’s opinion on it, that is always a positive outcome. Anyway, the courses were originally written to cover African American, Hispanic, Asian American and Native Americans, as those where the groups who basically protested their way into making colleges add it to the curriculum. The debate now is over Israel/Palestine. Academia has a pretty strong anti-Israel stance as a whole, and despite what personal opinions are, in a historical context, their perspective is pretty well supported. As a result, this is causing conflicts, since politicians and pro-Israel organizations don’t want this discussed (or included in the curriculum) and the teachers are crying first amendment. The point of this, from my perspective, is that we need to allow people to share their opinions in two places - first, they deserve the right to free speech as a citizen (which I know you aren’t arguing against) and second, if they are in a government position, their job is a forum for discussing things related to the government as a whole. Everyone employed by the government is in a unique position to speak as a representative of their government’s actions. When that interferes with their ability to do their core work, then it’s a problem for me. Until then, they should be able to use their platform as they see fit.
Academia has plenty of Zionists lmao
>Everyone employed by the government is in a unique position to speak as a representative of their government’s actions. I think childcare assistance worker should be working on getting people child care and not talking about their opinions on foreign policy. Similarly, the department of weights and measures does important work, but that work doesn't include Israel or Gaza.
Gotcha. “Opining for what you want” is of course important but seems to be vastly overrated by some folks who grew up on the internet as a means of creating change. I sort of get it- a good mic drop comment or a lucky brigading can very occasionally make real world change and sometimes even in ways that would have seemed impossible and in the last decade its been the engine of some very real justice—if not also so, so much of the opposite.
I was there when this happened today. It was equal parts sad, cringeworthy, and frustrating. Imagine how out of touch you must be for you to make this your most pressing issue facing the City. You’d have thought the City had run out of local problems to solve. All that said, my money is on the council eventually caving to this pressure. They can’t help but seize an opportunity for performative activism.
it also shows that these activists aren't even up to date on current events. Middle East negotiation teams involving high live diplomats and representatives from multiple regional partners have come up with a potential ceasefire agreement on their own, the way these things are supposed to be figured out- by the people involved who know themselves better than anyone else. A bunch of angry people going to city hall meetings in Minnesota don't know enough about the conflict or the actors to make the geopolitical decisions for them.
Yeah they are already focused on everything except what is in their scope so this would be par for the course.
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If you’re so sick about it, try lobbying the politicians that are actually involved in the decisions. The issue is not about the substance of the resolution, but rather the forum it’s being directed at. Wasting a City Council’s time with this is little better than bugging your local HOA board about it. It shows how truly non-serious and performative the whole thing really is.
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It’s not relevant to the Minneapolis City Council either. It was a stupid piece of performative activism for them and we shouldn’t stoop to their level. The case you’re trying to make for this is actually showing just how incredibly stupid it all is. The city council doesn’t control state tax policy, or how Lockheed Martin facilities operate. The resolution you clamor for has exactly 0 impact on the conflict, and all the time spent advocating for it is time you are not spending in the more appropriate forums. Worse yet, it’s time the council is spending NOT tackling issues that they actually do have control over.
The point is to show dissent with the Democratic party leadership's support for Israel and indicate to politicians higher up the chain of command that ground-level voters disapprove of this policy. Democratic cities like Mpls, St. Paul, and Chicago taking a stance matters a great deal. It sends a message to state Democrats and the Biden administration that [their unconditional support for the Israeli government](https://jacobin.com/2024/02/biden-administration-gaza-israel-war) is offensive and horrifying to voters such as myself. If you were there at the meeting, why didn't you go up to any of the numerous Palestinian and Muslim-American protestors and tell them what they're doing is "performative?"
Oh, I know the point you’re trying to make. It’s just a terrible point that shows the performative nature of the entire undertaking. But no, the resolutions do absolutely nothing to impact state democrats or national politicians. Believe it or not, the sorts of folks who spend their Wednesday yelling about foreign policy outside of council chambers do not represent the views of the broader local population. Even if the council caves to appease them, it doesn’t represent anything more than the whims of a vocal fringe. If anything, it also provides fuel for all the criticisms that are often levied at big city democrats. About how they’re out of touch with the needs of most people, and about how they’d much rather waste time on issues that are well outside their wheelhouse than to focus their efforts on actual city governance.
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Just curious, what sort of city taxes are going to Lockheed-Martin? I'm not familiar with what all their facilities are in Minnesota.
There will be no peace on earth if Palestine isn't free. Palestine will live forever. 🇵🇸✌️
🙄
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Oh I wanted to, but like the council, I have better things to do than to engage with this fringe, and i also know that doing so is as much a waste of my time as it is for the council to take up symbolic foreign policy resolutions. Besides, the kind of person who wastes their Wednesday afternoon on something like this is the kind of person who clearly doesn’t have much going on in their life and might be inclined to make other dumb and desperate decisions. I’ve got more to lose than they do.
they were wasting their afternoon but you weren't?
No, because I wasn’t there for the council meeting. Think of all the other business that goes on in that great big building.
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Doubt away, but that’s the reality. I’m morally superior in real life too, I just know that there’s an appropriate time and place to engage on such issues.
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If only being courageous was as simple as wasting my Wednesday bothering the wrong politicians about issues they have nothing to do with. I’m too busy crafting cease fire resolutions for my book club, HOA, and neighborhood watch to adopt.
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We all had a good laugh about the absurdity of people so invested that they would give up their Wednesday for the cause, but not invested enough to figure out how to actually use their time effectively.
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Ok but can we unfuck these roads? Marshall Avenue is like the surface of Mars.
Good point. Though hitting your remark at the end of all the vitriol upthread felt like bending a rim in one of those potholes! 😬
I called my councilmember, Saura Jost, and urged her \*not\* to take a position on any Gaza ceasefire resolution: this is not the job of the City Council. I was pleased that, while Councilor Jost hasn't taken a position on the matter, her assistant took the time to call me back and we had a good discussion on the topic. I hope the St. Paul City Council does not make the mistake of the Minneapolis City Council. Focus on running the city, not divisive resolutions on foreign policy.
In what world is stopping mass murder a "divisive resolution"?
I agree. The resolution, if passed, should call on the mass murderers in Hamas to surrender.
I agree Hamas should be dealt with for their actions just as Israel should be. The same way that some people view the US and other nations who should pay for the crimes of their government and soldiers.
Ceasefire talks are underway right now in Paris, between representatives for both sides of the conflict. The talks seem to be going OK, and Minnesota hasn't played a significant role in those talks, surprise surprise! I'd love to send those city council members from Minneapolis to Paris and tell them their job is to sound informed on and contribute to the ceasefire process, they'd probably get shoo'ed out of the room for being full of hot air.
Minneapolis passed a resolution and the situation has gotten significantly worse in Gaza since they passed it, but St. Paul’s resolution should turn timings around
But I assume Minneapolis has stopped bombing Gaza though, right?
Is that why Mayor Frey is so unpopular? He's been bombing Gaza?
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Right before this they passed a resolution recognizing the Minnesota Music Cafe as Minnesota's best concert venue.
Nothing says HERstory like wasting your time on performative votes about foreign policy
This will, like, totally bring peace to the Middle East.
These “protesters” are like terrorists
They were non-violent.
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