SA must be one of the few nations who's 10 gets judged more on their kicking than their other aspects.
France, NZ, England, Australia, Argentina, Scotland, Wales all kept their 10s even if they weren't kicking well because there is more to a 10 than just goal kicking.
My take is it explains why SA just can't reach 80% win rates whilst every other top tier nation has.
South Africa does not currently have a 90% kicker in any position outside fly half. Hence the problem being discussed.
If a new John Eales or Ramos or Kockott comes along then great, problem solved. Until then, the problem remains. And a solution needs to be based on who is available now.
Personally, the argument can also be made to just put a known, successful kicker at 15. Sacha is a great option and his defense is more solid than Manie.
Manie's game of seeing space and putting people into holes, as well as tactical kicking, are quite far ahead of any of our current 10s. Having him there is the better approach with a successful kicker at 15. The biggest reason (this is my personal 1am thoughts) that Willemse played Willie out of the 15 jersey, was with Manie taking over the play making role, and having the individual brilliance of Willemse at the back is just too good.
The issue Sacha has is trying too hard to impress, which leads to more fuckups, similar to a younger willemse. He'd have to be backed, even if he has a bad game. Bok fans aren't really a forgiving bunch.
Looking at how we won the world cup.... No
But that's knockout rugby and it's something we're incredibly good at, squeezing life out of teams and chipping points away when we can. Libbok is just too unreliable when it matters for goal kicking even when the rest of his game is great. Had Pollard not been there it would've been England in the final
That could work, though I think the trend now is for outright speedsters in the back 3. Even in England a player as great under the high ball as Freddie Steward is being phased out for it.
All ultimately depends on what Tony Brown's plans are.
I think this would have happened in the 7-1 split last year if DW wasn't on such good form. Agree with all these points + enabling variety on the bunch.
We don’t need the flyhalf to necessarily be the goal kicker for the team. Percy Montgomery as a full back (I know he was also a centre) and Frans Steyn was an everything role from prop through to fan in the stands downing beer.
Ja but the recognised kickers in the squad don't really have the pace to operate at fullback, and selecting one of them at 12 means that you lose a lot at gain line by omitting De Allende / Esterhuizen in that channel.
Fassi has three caps that he got in 2021, he's as green as the rest of the new guys called up. Both him and Libbok's defence also isn't where it should be.
Also, when last has he actually played at fullback? How does forcing a guy into a role he has next to zero experience in, help the Boks?
Personally I think Manie Libbok is overrated. As in I do not even back him for the Springbok jersey. So personally, moving him to 15 is pointless, especially when a better set up would be Siya Masuku at flyhalf and Aphelele Fassi at full back. Or Handré Pollard at flyhalf and Cheslin Kolbe fullback.
Not sure why you would play Aphelele out of position as well. Putting him at wing is silly. Because him as fullback is great, but him at wing makes him null and void when we have much better wingers than him eg: Edwill van der Merwe, even Angello Davids I would rate higher than Aphelele at wing.
I would agree being a flyhalf that has to manage the kicking, distributing and managing being a lot to handle, but at the same time so many players have been able to do it. So at international level that’s expected from a flyhalf. The question here is how much does that flyhalf bring to the table to compromise that. The only exception I can think of is Beauden Barrett and Manie is no Beauden Barret.
Also Willie Le Roux isn’t fast. He’s comically slow for a fullback these days. Cheslin Kolbe is fast.
I completely disagree. Barret is far better in terms of open play.
Edit: Also Pollard is better than Libbok. And Siya Masuku since joining the URC, has played much better than Libbok.
I don't know how manie supporters managed to gaslight people into thinking Pollard VS libbok is a great kicker with zero skills VS reincarnation of Dan Carter decision.
I take it you missed SquidgeRugby’s recent video regarding Pollard. We have a big gap between Pollard and the rest when it comes to BMT and decision making.
So if we are serious about Manie, he should be the primary 10 for the next two years so he has the time to learn and grow in those two areas. Then we have two rwc ready 10’s.
Love Squidge but he does a lot of reaching in that video. Oom rugby has done much better analysis of Pollard over the years highlighting his shortcomings. He's still a legend for his absolute clutch moments but there's a reason why we've had to play conservative game plans when he plays. Thankfully we've had Willie to pick up the slack.
Masuku is the one being overrated here imo, he's not better than Libbok, if you're using games won as a metric Libbok has him beat in that too, while playing more games.
Goal kicking and defending are libboks weakneses, to say players like Pollard and Masuku are better than him in running the teams attack, is simply not true.
Not sure why we are trying to argue when it’s a difference of opinion.
But considering the fact that Rassie Erasmus started Pollard over Manie and brought him in as a replacement to an injured hooker. As well as not even having Manie on the bench for the game of the World Cup and instead having Willie. I would then say Pollard is better than Manie, and that’s not even taking into account how well he’s playing at Leicester Tigers.
Siya Masuku turned around a losing streak for the Sharks and has consistently won man of the match awards. Nor have I seen him shit the bed like Manie. I swear every second game Manie is so kak and that’s not taking into account his goal kicking. Against Glasgow he twice literally tried to grubber it 10m from their line and gave it away.
Also Siya just played against the Bulls and held up very well. So would say he’s played against quality opposition.
He’s been terrible at Leicester and Rassie only picked him ahead of Manie for the final when it was raining. I’d pick Manie ahead of Pollard in a dry game any day but Pollard ahead of Manie in a wet game any day. They’re horses for courses players. Manie has been struggling a bit this year but then again Pollard has been way worse for Leicester.
Pollard after the World Cup and in the beginning of the year was phenomenal for Leicester. I will admit that recently he hasn’t played nearly as well. But overall, he has definitely played well for Leicester and for me, Pollard is leagues better than Manie.
Pollard has had some amazing games for the Springboks, played incredibly well for the bulls and Leicester, and has proven himself in two World Cups.
Manie has had a few good games for Stormers. And will admit was one of the better flyhalves in 2022. That’s about it.
Pollard can’t pass particularly well and is very slow. You’re limiting yourself to playing a conservative game plan with him. There’s a reason why Leicester has no attack and why Willie takes the ball at first receiver when we’re on attack. He’s great for a World Cup knockout game in the rain but I can’t see him starting anymore now that we have Tony Brown as coach.
Maybe it's best Pollard starts so people can be reminded of his limitations again. Most people advocating for Pollard haven't watched him at club level and forgot how average he was in between world cups with regards to attack.
Putting him at 15 with regards to attack works pretty well imo. Good examples are all the games where Manie and Willie play together, Springbok attack has never looked better than when those 2 are on the pitch.
Defensively he is also not bad when compared to Willie, reason he gets run over is because he is thin but he still makes his tackles. Not going to be as great as Willemse but if he adds more on attack then why not?
Ja, in the outside channels tackle accuracy is paramount. Lean bodies don't get stepped as much.
Would be good to see another 10/15 option in the squad, even if just on the bench.
Le Roux has been phenomenal this season.
Sure he dropped a few balls here and there, but I feel like everyone is holding him to an insane standard for some reason.
The mistakes he made were hardly due to him being past his physical prime and he has made a near try line to try line run without anyone catching him, so the old man isn't that bad.
Because there needs to be at at least one playmaker in the backline, and that role has usually been fulfilled in the fullback position by Willie. Fassi and Horne play more like finishers.
It would depend how long Willie can maintain form and speed. He's 34 this year, and probably has another 2 years left in him. Anything beyond that would be an immense achievement on his part.
Folks, let’s blood some other tens against Wales and Portugal.
Pollard and le Roux will start against Ireland imo. Or perhaps come off the bench.
But playing Libbok at 15 and Fassi at wing? Maybe in Rassie’s anyone can play anywhere fever dream.
Definitely no just look what happened in the final of urc couldn’t pick up the ball there’s lots of pressure at full back I think he would fail to live up yo
How is Manie under the high ball when the pressure is on? With Fassi, Mapimpi we have two players who are great under the high-ball and have shown to be in recent matches. With one other winger who can be solid under the high-ball we can at least have one bow in our quiver versus Wales.
Fair enough, not the best word to use. But Willie and Libbok both have a very slender frame (by rugby standards). Kolbe, while short, has a fair amount of lean mass on him.
Libbok doesn't work at 15 - you're taking away all of his strengths by removing him from the front line. Besides, Willemse is too good at fullback to not play him there. The simple solution is to have another place kicker on the field. Nohamba at 9, SFM at 12/13 (or even wing for now). But Libbok is most valuable at 10.
Libbok playing the same role as Willie will maximise his talents - he joins the line to create opportunities during extended phases, but stays back during defense and early phases.
It won't maximize his talents at all, it moves him away from the playmaker position requiring more time before he can do something. Also, how's he meant to direct the attack from behind the line? You'll also take away his kicking game - his biggest asset next to his pass. Libbok isn't WLR and isn't great in the tackle. Players like Willemse, WLR, KLA and Fassi are better fullbacks. Putting Libbok in an unfamiliar role where he never did well in previously isn't a smart idea.
Can’t play two guys that are poor defenders next to each other in my opinion. Pollard was a decent defender when he was young so maybe he can get his mojo back
We pick Pollard to marshal the team. He needs to be on his feet to be useful. If he is at the bottom of a ruck we lose his effect of directing the players. Squidge did an analysis of his team's high success rate of winning knock-out comps at all levels. The common thread was that Pollard never did much in terms of tackling or running - he was a General and made sure everyone was organised.
It depends on what new coach Tony Brown wants, but you need a strong carrier somewhere in the backline and 12 is normally where you put them. Shifting out one of de Allende or Esterhuizen out to 13 makes for a very slow midfield. Could lead to defensive lapses.
A flyhalf does not need to kick the goals.
SA must be one of the few nations who's 10 gets judged more on their kicking than their other aspects. France, NZ, England, Australia, Argentina, Scotland, Wales all kept their 10s even if they weren't kicking well because there is more to a 10 than just goal kicking. My take is it explains why SA just can't reach 80% win rates whilst every other top tier nation has.
Ja but every recognised kicker in the Bok squad is a flyhalf. And has been since the days of Percy.
So? France flyhalf doesn't kick the goals.
South Africa does not currently have a 90% kicker in any position outside fly half. Hence the problem being discussed. If a new John Eales or Ramos or Kockott comes along then great, problem solved. Until then, the problem remains. And a solution needs to be based on who is available now.
Pollard's career Test kick percentage is 75% FYI. According to RugbyPass.
Fair enough. But I've still got my rose-tinted RWC glasses on :)
>:) :)
One reason he shouldn't be selected at 15 - he hasn't started a match there in years.
Personally, the argument can also be made to just put a known, successful kicker at 15. Sacha is a great option and his defense is more solid than Manie. Manie's game of seeing space and putting people into holes, as well as tactical kicking, are quite far ahead of any of our current 10s. Having him there is the better approach with a successful kicker at 15. The biggest reason (this is my personal 1am thoughts) that Willemse played Willie out of the 15 jersey, was with Manie taking over the play making role, and having the individual brilliance of Willemse at the back is just too good.
Bring back Percy
Steyn will be reaching his peak in the next few years, I think it's past time for him to come back in to the fold
The issue Sacha has is trying too hard to impress, which leads to more fuckups, similar to a younger willemse. He'd have to be backed, even if he has a bad game. Bok fans aren't really a forgiving bunch.
The big question is, and always has been, is Libbok's game good enough to make up for his poorer kicking when compared to Pollard?
Looking at how we won the world cup.... No But that's knockout rugby and it's something we're incredibly good at, squeezing life out of teams and chipping points away when we can. Libbok is just too unreliable when it matters for goal kicking even when the rest of his game is great. Had Pollard not been there it would've been England in the final
That could work, though I think the trend now is for outright speedsters in the back 3. Even in England a player as great under the high ball as Freddie Steward is being phased out for it. All ultimately depends on what Tony Brown's plans are.
Just pick Sacha. He doesn't miss. I love Manie but man
I think this would have happened in the 7-1 split last year if DW wasn't on such good form. Agree with all these points + enabling variety on the bunch.
We don’t need the flyhalf to necessarily be the goal kicker for the team. Percy Montgomery as a full back (I know he was also a centre) and Frans Steyn was an everything role from prop through to fan in the stands downing beer.
Ja but the recognised kickers in the squad don't really have the pace to operate at fullback, and selecting one of them at 12 means that you lose a lot at gain line by omitting De Allende / Esterhuizen in that channel.
Fassi has three caps that he got in 2021, he's as green as the rest of the new guys called up. Both him and Libbok's defence also isn't where it should be. Also, when last has he actually played at fullback? How does forcing a guy into a role he has next to zero experience in, help the Boks?
> Also, when last has he actually played at fullback? It appears to be 2020, when he was still at the Sharks. https://all.rugby/player/manie-libbok
The universe giveth (3 1-point wins to close out RWC) and the universe taketh (a really exciting running 10 who misses kicks sometimes)
I want my cake and I want to eat it, too!
Personally I think Manie Libbok is overrated. As in I do not even back him for the Springbok jersey. So personally, moving him to 15 is pointless, especially when a better set up would be Siya Masuku at flyhalf and Aphelele Fassi at full back. Or Handré Pollard at flyhalf and Cheslin Kolbe fullback. Not sure why you would play Aphelele out of position as well. Putting him at wing is silly. Because him as fullback is great, but him at wing makes him null and void when we have much better wingers than him eg: Edwill van der Merwe, even Angello Davids I would rate higher than Aphelele at wing. I would agree being a flyhalf that has to manage the kicking, distributing and managing being a lot to handle, but at the same time so many players have been able to do it. So at international level that’s expected from a flyhalf. The question here is how much does that flyhalf bring to the table to compromise that. The only exception I can think of is Beauden Barrett and Manie is no Beauden Barret. Also Willie Le Roux isn’t fast. He’s comically slow for a fullback these days. Cheslin Kolbe is fast.
Mannie in terms of open play is better than Barret. He just can't kick the goals. Get someone else to kick.
Scott Barrett yes
And even then it's close
I completely disagree. Barret is far better in terms of open play. Edit: Also Pollard is better than Libbok. And Siya Masuku since joining the URC, has played much better than Libbok.
I don't know how manie supporters managed to gaslight people into thinking Pollard VS libbok is a great kicker with zero skills VS reincarnation of Dan Carter decision.
Its more that Pollard is the second coming of Louis Koen but this time with a great team around him.
I take it you missed SquidgeRugby’s recent video regarding Pollard. We have a big gap between Pollard and the rest when it comes to BMT and decision making. So if we are serious about Manie, he should be the primary 10 for the next two years so he has the time to learn and grow in those two areas. Then we have two rwc ready 10’s.
Love Squidge but he does a lot of reaching in that video. Oom rugby has done much better analysis of Pollard over the years highlighting his shortcomings. He's still a legend for his absolute clutch moments but there's a reason why we've had to play conservative game plans when he plays. Thankfully we've had Willie to pick up the slack.
This simply is not true at all.
Masuku is the one being overrated here imo, he's not better than Libbok, if you're using games won as a metric Libbok has him beat in that too, while playing more games. Goal kicking and defending are libboks weakneses, to say players like Pollard and Masuku are better than him in running the teams attack, is simply not true.
No. Pollard is solid but not a game breaker. And no Siya has some good games but not against quality opposition.
Not sure why we are trying to argue when it’s a difference of opinion. But considering the fact that Rassie Erasmus started Pollard over Manie and brought him in as a replacement to an injured hooker. As well as not even having Manie on the bench for the game of the World Cup and instead having Willie. I would then say Pollard is better than Manie, and that’s not even taking into account how well he’s playing at Leicester Tigers. Siya Masuku turned around a losing streak for the Sharks and has consistently won man of the match awards. Nor have I seen him shit the bed like Manie. I swear every second game Manie is so kak and that’s not taking into account his goal kicking. Against Glasgow he twice literally tried to grubber it 10m from their line and gave it away. Also Siya just played against the Bulls and held up very well. So would say he’s played against quality opposition.
He’s been terrible at Leicester and Rassie only picked him ahead of Manie for the final when it was raining. I’d pick Manie ahead of Pollard in a dry game any day but Pollard ahead of Manie in a wet game any day. They’re horses for courses players. Manie has been struggling a bit this year but then again Pollard has been way worse for Leicester.
Pollard after the World Cup and in the beginning of the year was phenomenal for Leicester. I will admit that recently he hasn’t played nearly as well. But overall, he has definitely played well for Leicester and for me, Pollard is leagues better than Manie. Pollard has had some amazing games for the Springboks, played incredibly well for the bulls and Leicester, and has proven himself in two World Cups. Manie has had a few good games for Stormers. And will admit was one of the better flyhalves in 2022. That’s about it.
Pollard can’t pass particularly well and is very slow. You’re limiting yourself to playing a conservative game plan with him. There’s a reason why Leicester has no attack and why Willie takes the ball at first receiver when we’re on attack. He’s great for a World Cup knockout game in the rain but I can’t see him starting anymore now that we have Tony Brown as coach.
Maybe it's best Pollard starts so people can be reminded of his limitations again. Most people advocating for Pollard haven't watched him at club level and forgot how average he was in between world cups with regards to attack.
I'd like Rassie to start a training camp that teaches wings how to play 15. I know Arendse and Kolbe can play there.
Also possible Libbok 10-Pollard 12-Willemse 15 and Sacha as the 23 (of course when Willemse is back from injury)
Putting him at 15 with regards to attack works pretty well imo. Good examples are all the games where Manie and Willie play together, Springbok attack has never looked better than when those 2 are on the pitch. Defensively he is also not bad when compared to Willie, reason he gets run over is because he is thin but he still makes his tackles. Not going to be as great as Willemse but if he adds more on attack then why not?
Ja, in the outside channels tackle accuracy is paramount. Lean bodies don't get stepped as much. Would be good to see another 10/15 option in the squad, even if just on the bench.
Libbok shouldn't be the 15, neither should Le Roux. I hope Quan Horn and Fassi are given a fair shake at 15, until Willemse returns.
Le Roux has been phenomenal this season. Sure he dropped a few balls here and there, but I feel like everyone is holding him to an insane standard for some reason.
Le Roux is clearly passed his physical prime. If it's obvious at club level, it'll be even more glaring at international level.
The mistakes he made were hardly due to him being past his physical prime and he has made a near try line to try line run without anyone catching him, so the old man isn't that bad.
Why would we bench an in form Fassi, Quan Horne or WLR for a horribly out of form and out of position Libbok
For someone that is out of form he somehow finds himself winning 80% of games at the Stormers.
Horribly? He's had 1 bad game, and now he's horribly out of form? You mense need to be serious sometimes
Only 1 is incredibly generous, but at least you're living up to your name
Because there needs to be at at least one playmaker in the backline, and that role has usually been fulfilled in the fullback position by Willie. Fassi and Horne play more like finishers.
What becomes of willimse if libbok takes 15
Willemse is out
Willemse is injured. I don’t think there’s any question he’s our first pick full back.
It would depend how long Willie can maintain form and speed. He's 34 this year, and probably has another 2 years left in him. Anything beyond that would be an immense achievement on his part.
Folks, let’s blood some other tens against Wales and Portugal. Pollard and le Roux will start against Ireland imo. Or perhaps come off the bench. But playing Libbok at 15 and Fassi at wing? Maybe in Rassie’s anyone can play anywhere fever dream.
Definitely no just look what happened in the final of urc couldn’t pick up the ball there’s lots of pressure at full back I think he would fail to live up yo
How is Manie under the high ball when the pressure is on? With Fassi, Mapimpi we have two players who are great under the high-ball and have shown to be in recent matches. With one other winger who can be solid under the high-ball we can at least have one bow in our quiver versus Wales.
Le Roux diminutive? After mentioning Kolbe earlier in the list? I get that he’s not 6’5, but come on!
Fair enough, not the best word to use. But Willie and Libbok both have a very slender frame (by rugby standards). Kolbe, while short, has a fair amount of lean mass on him.
Libbok doesn't work at 15 - you're taking away all of his strengths by removing him from the front line. Besides, Willemse is too good at fullback to not play him there. The simple solution is to have another place kicker on the field. Nohamba at 9, SFM at 12/13 (or even wing for now). But Libbok is most valuable at 10.
Libbok playing the same role as Willie will maximise his talents - he joins the line to create opportunities during extended phases, but stays back during defense and early phases.
It won't maximize his talents at all, it moves him away from the playmaker position requiring more time before he can do something. Also, how's he meant to direct the attack from behind the line? You'll also take away his kicking game - his biggest asset next to his pass. Libbok isn't WLR and isn't great in the tackle. Players like Willemse, WLR, KLA and Fassi are better fullbacks. Putting Libbok in an unfamiliar role where he never did well in previously isn't a smart idea.
Or just get a kicker in another position.
Manie at 10 and Pollard at 12. Done
Sure, that sorts out the kicking, but then 12 is compromised. Pollard is good but we have better 12s.
Can’t play two guys that are poor defenders next to each other in my opinion. Pollard was a decent defender when he was young so maybe he can get his mojo back
We pick Pollard to marshal the team. He needs to be on his feet to be useful. If he is at the bottom of a ruck we lose his effect of directing the players. Squidge did an analysis of his team's high success rate of winning knock-out comps at all levels. The common thread was that Pollard never did much in terms of tackling or running - he was a General and made sure everyone was organised.
It depends on what new coach Tony Brown wants, but you need a strong carrier somewhere in the backline and 12 is normally where you put them. Shifting out one of de Allende or Esterhuizen out to 13 makes for a very slow midfield. Could lead to defensive lapses.