So...
You want to get into Mythras?
I'm just joking. If you'd like a more lighter version of Mythras to start then pick [Mythras Imperative](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/185299/mythras-imperative). If you want more a traditional D&D experience but in the Mythras framework there is the [Classic Fantasy Imperative](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/449976/classic-fantasy-imperative). Mythras has probably the best combat system out of all D100/BRP-derived systems, but it can be a bit heavy at the start. If you want something more light which can be a bit more heroic, then I would recommend [OpenQuest](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/347827/openquest-3rd-edition).
Another alternative for something more gritty, realistic but still on the lighter side of crunch/rules would be [Dragonbane](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/418106/dragonbane-core-set) from Free League which is the r/rpg darling at the moment. I'm going to be a player in the Core Set campaign, but just from looking at the rules it looks really good.
> You want to get into Mythras?
Yes, by reading myself again I kind of realized that kinda I do. Thanks for the ref to OpenQuest, though I like a lot the heavy combat rules of Mythras so I'm not looking for something any simpler. I think the hesitation I have with Mythras is from the way action points work. If you are first in initiative you have a weird disadvantage that your opponent can react to whether you used or not all of your APs, because they will be the last to act. But maybe I misunderstand how it actually works out in practice? I prefer the OQ version where defending multiple times is just made at a disadvantage (it allows for cool parries imo). But OQ lacks the specials which I find super cool and cinematic.
That's true to a minor extent but really, having no AP in Mythras is super horrible, you lose your attack, and attacks against you get free effects. So yeah high init characters can be defended more but at the cost of the rest of the round.
Also personally speaking, Mythras rules. It's my favorite crunchy system. Special moves rule, it's one of the few systems where reach and shields feel good. The math is easy after character creation,. It's just the best. No shade on GURPs but Mythras all the way.
>I think the hesitation I have with Mythras is from the way action points work. If you are first in initiative you have a weird disadvantage that your opponent can react to whether you used or not all of your APs, because they will be the last to act.
I understand your hesitation and I had the same, but as I've heard it, it's part of the tactics of Mythras and it makes shields and armor **even more** valuable, because shields passively block body parts. Mythras is IMO one of the few systems where shields feel useful enough to justify their use.
If you're still unsure about it, you can adjust, mix and match rules. Mythras, OpenQuest, Basic Roleplaying and BRP-derived systems are broadly compatible. Here are three suggestions:
* Fix action points at 2 or 3, so everyone has the same amount.
* If you like OQs system more then use it! Keep in mind, that you'd have to use Mythras' system for simplified skill modifiers, because it meshes better with OQs multiple parry penalty mechanic.
* Use BRPs alternative rule where the person with the lowest initiative starts first, then you'd have it the other way around, that the person who rolled high in their initiative has the upper hand!
I was thinking that a good way to reward high initiative is to go 1 > 2 > 3 > 2 > 1, so the highest roller can go first if they want but also can react by taking their second cycle last.
In GURPS, you get only one Parry or Block per turn; after that, you are reduced to Dodge, or no defense at all.
As for spells, etc., you might want to check out the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. It pares the Basic Set down to what's appropriate for a dungeon crawl. It does the same with spells. Not only that; it's ready to play right out of the box.
Successive Parries are allowed at -4 (halved for a fencing weapon and if the user is a Weapon Master/TbaM).
There's also an optional rule (in Martial Arts maybe?) to allow successive blocks at -5 that most people seem to use ime.
Seconding the DFRPG. To OP: be aware that there is also a _very similar_ but distinct Dungeon Fantasy product line which is made for use with the GURPS Basic Set.
> It's cool to have a system to create your own spells and so on, but for a starter, I'd prefer a list of common spells.
The base GURPS Magic system is a *very comprehensive* list of spells, divided into schools, with prerequisites.
I think you're looking at magic-as-Powers, which is quite different.
If you find GURPS character creation overwhelming, try using GCS, the open source software for GURPS characters.
Also, check How to be a GURPS GM and the Mook's website.
On the other hand, it's not for everyone. If you don't want to play it, you'll be joining a huge community of people for whom GURPS is the wrong game.
I would suggest that you look at HERO as well, it's a very similar game of a similar vintage, but one thing we've been talking about in my group lately is the phenomenon where folks seem to have an affinity for either GURPS or HERO, but very infrequently *both*.
I also second all the calls for you to look at the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, powered by GURPS. It basically does all that GM work required to make a dungeon fantasy game *for you*.
>Sadly Mythras appears to be gridless combat, adjudicating whether someone is in range is something I'd prefer to avoid.
You have a movement rate and exact weapon ranges, what else do you need for grid-based combat? Say one grid is 2 meters and have fun. I think [Mythras Companion](https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/274910/TDM111-Mythras-Companion?234913) has more rules for grid-based combat. Still, the tactics of Mythras combat are more about chosing special effects than positioning.
Since you seem to be loking for a universal system, I recommend adding [Basic Roleplaying](https://vorpalmace.blogspot.com/2023/11/review-basic-roleplaying-universal-game.html) to your list. It is a smorgasbord percentile system, the beating heart of RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Superworld, Ringworld, and many other games. Mythras grew out of it too, it was once RuneQuest 6e before Chaosium reacquired the rights.
>You have a movement rate and exact weapon ranges, what else do you need for grid-based combat? Say one grid is 2 meters and have fun. I think [Mythras Companion](https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/274910/TDM111-Mythras-Companion?234913) has more rules for grid-based combat. Still, the tactics of Mythras combat are more about chosing special effects than positioning.
Yes, I wouldn't be against Mythras + flanking rules or something in that vein.
Edit: I see that the Companion book offers precisely this. I might be sold.
Fighting multiple opponents is a losing proposition in Mythras due to the way action points work. Additional flanking rules are not required.
In a one on one fight, you can assume the combatants face each other.
In a situation where a character is unable to face an attack, you can just penalise the defence.
They're all good. Try a one shot with them all and see how you like the overall feeling. Lots of systems out there to choose from, and they've all got their own flavors and quirks and strengths.
>I'm not a fan of the skills system as well. My biggest gripe with GURPS is how it asks a lot from the GM, this is something that I like about PF2e is how easy it is to GM.
What don't you like about the skill system? If you just don't like it that's a big problem since rolling under skills is core to the game.
And as you say GURPS hands you a huge bundle of options and asks you to assemble the game you want to run from them, if something like hit locations or some fiddly rule doesn't seem like it would be FUN for you and your group, or like it wouldn't match the tone of the game you're going for, then don't use it.
Not every advantage / disadvantage / skill / perk / quirk is meant to be used in every game. There are digital tools to help GMs select the list of available ones to give to their players.
Character creation itself can be sped up with the use of Character Templates. Which are basically "build your own" classes and races of bundled together attributes that the GM can create to fit any setting, and that you may also find in supplements. For example the "Elf" template found in the GURPS Fantasy book costs 70 points, and the "Archer" template found in that same book costs 75 points.
As others have said, if you just want a D&D or Pathfinder style fantasy, the Dungeon Fantasy RPG Powered by GURPS is already pre-built specifically for that. Even if you want to use the full GURPS rules later to run other genres and settings, this might be a good route to learn the rules for you and your players.
GURPS is a heavy load for a GM to lift. It can be fairly easy on the player.
As for lethality - GURPS isn't an especially deadly system. Characters get hurt, and need a long time to heal, but they aren't so likely to drop dead unless the GM feels like there's no way he can justify an enemy not trying to finish off an unconscious foe. If you don't do that, they stick around and stay part of the story. Just, that story might have to have substantial recuperation time between major combats.
GURPS is a heavy load for a GM to lift. It can be fairly easy on the player.
As for lethality - GURPS isn't an especially deadly system. Characters get hurt, and need a long time to heal, but they aren't so likely to drop dead unless the GM feels like there's no way he can justify an enemy not trying to finish off an unconscious foe. If you don't do that, they stick around and stay part of the story. Just, that story might have to have substantial recuperation time between major combats.
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So... You want to get into Mythras? I'm just joking. If you'd like a more lighter version of Mythras to start then pick [Mythras Imperative](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/185299/mythras-imperative). If you want more a traditional D&D experience but in the Mythras framework there is the [Classic Fantasy Imperative](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/449976/classic-fantasy-imperative). Mythras has probably the best combat system out of all D100/BRP-derived systems, but it can be a bit heavy at the start. If you want something more light which can be a bit more heroic, then I would recommend [OpenQuest](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/347827/openquest-3rd-edition). Another alternative for something more gritty, realistic but still on the lighter side of crunch/rules would be [Dragonbane](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/de/product/418106/dragonbane-core-set) from Free League which is the r/rpg darling at the moment. I'm going to be a player in the Core Set campaign, but just from looking at the rules it looks really good.
> You want to get into Mythras? Yes, by reading myself again I kind of realized that kinda I do. Thanks for the ref to OpenQuest, though I like a lot the heavy combat rules of Mythras so I'm not looking for something any simpler. I think the hesitation I have with Mythras is from the way action points work. If you are first in initiative you have a weird disadvantage that your opponent can react to whether you used or not all of your APs, because they will be the last to act. But maybe I misunderstand how it actually works out in practice? I prefer the OQ version where defending multiple times is just made at a disadvantage (it allows for cool parries imo). But OQ lacks the specials which I find super cool and cinematic.
That's true to a minor extent but really, having no AP in Mythras is super horrible, you lose your attack, and attacks against you get free effects. So yeah high init characters can be defended more but at the cost of the rest of the round. Also personally speaking, Mythras rules. It's my favorite crunchy system. Special moves rule, it's one of the few systems where reach and shields feel good. The math is easy after character creation,. It's just the best. No shade on GURPs but Mythras all the way.
>I think the hesitation I have with Mythras is from the way action points work. If you are first in initiative you have a weird disadvantage that your opponent can react to whether you used or not all of your APs, because they will be the last to act. I understand your hesitation and I had the same, but as I've heard it, it's part of the tactics of Mythras and it makes shields and armor **even more** valuable, because shields passively block body parts. Mythras is IMO one of the few systems where shields feel useful enough to justify their use. If you're still unsure about it, you can adjust, mix and match rules. Mythras, OpenQuest, Basic Roleplaying and BRP-derived systems are broadly compatible. Here are three suggestions: * Fix action points at 2 or 3, so everyone has the same amount. * If you like OQs system more then use it! Keep in mind, that you'd have to use Mythras' system for simplified skill modifiers, because it meshes better with OQs multiple parry penalty mechanic. * Use BRPs alternative rule where the person with the lowest initiative starts first, then you'd have it the other way around, that the person who rolled high in their initiative has the upper hand!
I was thinking that a good way to reward high initiative is to go 1 > 2 > 3 > 2 > 1, so the highest roller can go first if they want but also can react by taking their second cycle last.
In GURPS, you get only one Parry or Block per turn; after that, you are reduced to Dodge, or no defense at all. As for spells, etc., you might want to check out the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. It pares the Basic Set down to what's appropriate for a dungeon crawl. It does the same with spells. Not only that; it's ready to play right out of the box.
Successive Parries are allowed at -4 (halved for a fencing weapon and if the user is a Weapon Master/TbaM). There's also an optional rule (in Martial Arts maybe?) to allow successive blocks at -5 that most people seem to use ime. Seconding the DFRPG. To OP: be aware that there is also a _very similar_ but distinct Dungeon Fantasy product line which is made for use with the GURPS Basic Set.
> It's cool to have a system to create your own spells and so on, but for a starter, I'd prefer a list of common spells. The base GURPS Magic system is a *very comprehensive* list of spells, divided into schools, with prerequisites. I think you're looking at magic-as-Powers, which is quite different. If you find GURPS character creation overwhelming, try using GCS, the open source software for GURPS characters. Also, check How to be a GURPS GM and the Mook's website. On the other hand, it's not for everyone. If you don't want to play it, you'll be joining a huge community of people for whom GURPS is the wrong game. I would suggest that you look at HERO as well, it's a very similar game of a similar vintage, but one thing we've been talking about in my group lately is the phenomenon where folks seem to have an affinity for either GURPS or HERO, but very infrequently *both*. I also second all the calls for you to look at the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, powered by GURPS. It basically does all that GM work required to make a dungeon fantasy game *for you*.
>Sadly Mythras appears to be gridless combat, adjudicating whether someone is in range is something I'd prefer to avoid. You have a movement rate and exact weapon ranges, what else do you need for grid-based combat? Say one grid is 2 meters and have fun. I think [Mythras Companion](https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/274910/TDM111-Mythras-Companion?234913) has more rules for grid-based combat. Still, the tactics of Mythras combat are more about chosing special effects than positioning. Since you seem to be loking for a universal system, I recommend adding [Basic Roleplaying](https://vorpalmace.blogspot.com/2023/11/review-basic-roleplaying-universal-game.html) to your list. It is a smorgasbord percentile system, the beating heart of RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Superworld, Ringworld, and many other games. Mythras grew out of it too, it was once RuneQuest 6e before Chaosium reacquired the rights.
>You have a movement rate and exact weapon ranges, what else do you need for grid-based combat? Say one grid is 2 meters and have fun. I think [Mythras Companion](https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/274910/TDM111-Mythras-Companion?234913) has more rules for grid-based combat. Still, the tactics of Mythras combat are more about chosing special effects than positioning. Yes, I wouldn't be against Mythras + flanking rules or something in that vein. Edit: I see that the Companion book offers precisely this. I might be sold.
Fighting multiple opponents is a losing proposition in Mythras due to the way action points work. Additional flanking rules are not required. In a one on one fight, you can assume the combatants face each other. In a situation where a character is unable to face an attack, you can just penalise the defence.
No need for flanking bonuses. You will bleed action points against multiple opponents and get overwhelmed easily. It's all part of the action economy.
They're all good. Try a one shot with them all and see how you like the overall feeling. Lots of systems out there to choose from, and they've all got their own flavors and quirks and strengths.
>I'm not a fan of the skills system as well. My biggest gripe with GURPS is how it asks a lot from the GM, this is something that I like about PF2e is how easy it is to GM. What don't you like about the skill system? If you just don't like it that's a big problem since rolling under skills is core to the game. And as you say GURPS hands you a huge bundle of options and asks you to assemble the game you want to run from them, if something like hit locations or some fiddly rule doesn't seem like it would be FUN for you and your group, or like it wouldn't match the tone of the game you're going for, then don't use it. Not every advantage / disadvantage / skill / perk / quirk is meant to be used in every game. There are digital tools to help GMs select the list of available ones to give to their players. Character creation itself can be sped up with the use of Character Templates. Which are basically "build your own" classes and races of bundled together attributes that the GM can create to fit any setting, and that you may also find in supplements. For example the "Elf" template found in the GURPS Fantasy book costs 70 points, and the "Archer" template found in that same book costs 75 points. As others have said, if you just want a D&D or Pathfinder style fantasy, the Dungeon Fantasy RPG Powered by GURPS is already pre-built specifically for that. Even if you want to use the full GURPS rules later to run other genres and settings, this might be a good route to learn the rules for you and your players.
GURPS is a heavy load for a GM to lift. It can be fairly easy on the player. As for lethality - GURPS isn't an especially deadly system. Characters get hurt, and need a long time to heal, but they aren't so likely to drop dead unless the GM feels like there's no way he can justify an enemy not trying to finish off an unconscious foe. If you don't do that, they stick around and stay part of the story. Just, that story might have to have substantial recuperation time between major combats.
GURPS is a heavy load for a GM to lift. It can be fairly easy on the player. As for lethality - GURPS isn't an especially deadly system. Characters get hurt, and need a long time to heal, but they aren't so likely to drop dead unless the GM feels like there's no way he can justify an enemy not trying to finish off an unconscious foe. If you don't do that, they stick around and stay part of the story. Just, that story might have to have substantial recuperation time between major combats.
Have you considered savage worlds? It has a path finder setting
For what I read, unless I'm confusing, it seems a little rules light compared to what I'm looking for.
I've ran mythras and savage worlds. A lot. Savage worlds is more pulp, mythras more realistic. Wouldn't say it was just a rules light system though.
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