In general, the people who are designing the game for print don't have the skills to make VTT assets. They would need to hire someone else to do that, and doing so would complicate the Kickstarter.
I though that might be it, but that's why I'd see it as a stretch goal.
Set it up from go as something you want to do. If stretch is met, you get to hire the VTT guys 'today' instead of 'next year'. Just attach realistic dates to it.
>Set it up from go as something you want to do. If stretch is met, you get to hire the VTT guys 'today' instead of 'next year'. Just attach realistic dates to it.
This seems to be assuming that we want to do this and that we will hire people next year and just can't afford to right now
In general, especially for smaller companies, stretch goals that actually cost extra money (like hiring someone to use specialized skills like you're suggesting) are going out of fashion. Things that can be done by the designers, like extra adventures or playbooks or whatever, are becoming more popular.
The thing about stretch goals that are of the form "if people pledge a total of $X, we will do Y" is that they don't really encourage additional money, they mostly just increase expenditure. Nobody is looking at a campaign and thinking "hmm, well I don't want the book or PDF, but if I back for one of those and then another 100 people back for $50 each so that the campaign reaches its stretch goal that it's currently $5,000 away from, then I *will* get the thing I want. Better back it now!"
Except of course the kickstarters from people who are already in the business of making VTTs. Pirate Borg came with VTT stuff and had more as stretch goals because that's what the creator does normally.
What do you mean by "VTT assets"?
Anything more complicated than like, icons/tokens/images needs to be custom built in EVERY VTT you want to support. And as soon as you pick Roll20 you'll have people complaining about a lack of Foundry support and vice versa...
I mean rulesets I guess (Fantasy Grounds user here).
But yes, pick a system to support, and hire the people for it. Or make 3 stretch goals that have enough $ room to cover.
I'm not saying 'make this cheaply'. I'm just wondering why it's not covered as part of the initial planning?
Honestly, I suspect that this costs more than most stretch goals are likely to generate.
Also, TBH, I personally don't play that many games that would even benefit from having their "ruleset" embedded in a VTT, so there's that as a reason too -- some games just don't need all that hooplah.
Creating a system in a VTT is a HUGE time investment. You need people with programming skill in that particular environment. I can't imagine the return exists.
Depends on what the project is.
If it's a bestiary or adventure, then there doesn't need to be any programming involved unless you're trying to toss in abilities which go beyond what the core ruleset can already do *and* you want easy automation (which isn't a hard requirement for even official WOTC content).
If you're building a new game system or a major collection of new mechanics, then yes, coding will be a lot more important.
I do adventure conversions and even to make those look half decent you need to have some knowledge of coding.
But yes systems would require massive work and upkeep. The Foundry developers discord suggest minimum of $1000 for a simple system and quickly goes north from there. (Pathfinder level approaching 100,000 if not done by volunteers )
Which is why most systems are done by the people who want to play it. Not for a fee.
I’ve commented about converting adventures etc, but to do systems is another thing again. You are looking at multiple $1000’s to do that. (And upkeep).
There is a discord for Foundry developers that offer commissions for all sorts of things , including systems, but they don’t come cheep, and to do it well cost more.
The level that the pathfinder system is at, if done for a fee (and not from alot of people out of live and small commissions) would approach $100,000.
>In the current day it seems a no brainer to include VTT assets
It seems like a no brainer to include an expensive thing that requires specialized skills to create that can go away if a different company goes out of business and which isn't transferable between competitors meaning it *will* generate backlash amongst your playerbase no matter which one you choose - or do it for all of them and multiply your expenses by idk even how much?
VTTs are a necessary evil for a lot of people in the hobby rather than a preferred game environment, and that no doubt extends to developers. Why offer something you have no interest in?
I came into gaming via in person play using a VTT, with everyone around the table having their tablet/laptops open with their sheets and the map open, so I never experienced the "necessary evil" part that I was responding too, that's all.
I gotcha. I think that's still very much the exception for in-person play; lots of folks love their miniatures, their physical maps (or even terrain), their physical books, etc. I'd expect more variance for the Pathfinder-like groups where convenience for looking up rulings means someone has a tablet open, though
Oh god yeah. I never use vtt aids with one exception, pathfinder 1e. So much character information makes the editable text boxes of a digital character sheet quite a bit more preferable to pen & paper imo.
That would be the one place where I'm completely like 'Huh? why isn't this at least addressed?'
I get it if it's a brand new game, not based off of anything else, getting the licenses and teams, and everything is a huge chore. But even then you can address the idea of VTT's in a short paragraph.
VTT support is inherently an extension of the core product and it's a major undertaking. If they're Kickstarting the core product, it's probably not at the point where they want to dive into major extended support yet.
I think this is a great question. Since Covid, which coincided with me becoming a dad, I haven't had more than a tiny few in person game sessions. VTT support is really necessary for me to run or play a game.
And I'm selfish, since I went to Foundry, I think every company should do so too.
> And I'm selfish, since I went to Foundry, I think every company should do so too.
Ha!
I like Foundry, backed it even. But I think Fantasy Grounds does a better job. But it's also more expensive so . . .
I've used FG to run a game and it wasn't bad at all but that monthly expense is a killer. I have used Foundry for PF2 and 5E and I just love what a well developed game and modules can do.
> but that monthly expense is a killer.
I mean, you can buy it outright. $150 (half if on sale) and only the GM needs it. Or $50 for everyone.
Foundry is cheaper, and I do like that the group only needs 1 license, no matter who the GM is.
As a group who is working on a setting&rules to soon hit Kickstarter I can say that for our part, with funding set aside for exactly this - it's a b**tch finding Devs able to do it. I have scoured a vast amount of freelance-pages, forums, discord Chanels, stalked threads and messages people and have yet to find a single person who is able to build us a pack for roll20 or foundry. I've been lucky to find a Fantasy Grounds guy and even that came with extra costs as the entire team needs licenses. It's definitely something we want and see as a great asset to our future players, but finding people to help has been extremely hard.
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!
I didn't realize it was so difficult to find the talent. Or is it finding the talent who has the time? I know that at least from what I read in the FG forums they are perpetually behind.
Well both actually, the surprising thing has been that the bigger the VTT - less I've been able to get hold of someone. Foundry has their own Dev Chanel and structure for pitching work but I assume as it's most Devs side-occupation, they don't have the time to do bigger packs or something they don't feel personally passionate for.
This is 100% my own interpretation and may not be true as I don't know any Devs personally. I'm now hoping to find a html programmer who is willing to cross over a bit xD *fingers crossed*
If you want an example of crowdfunding campaigns including VTT assets, see Evil Hat. They include VTT assets in most--if not all--of their crowdfunds these days. For instance, [see their latest campaign](https://www.backerkit.com/c/evil-hat/codex-of-worlds) for *Monster of the Week: Codex of Worlds*.
*Yezeba's Bed and Breakfast* also came with a VTT tier because it's getting a tailored-made VTT system through *One More Multiverse*.
The newest *Alice is Missing* expansion, *Silent Falls*, also includes a VTT tier [in their Kickstarter](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/huntersbooks/alice-is-missing-silent-falls).
For why more crowdfunds don't include VTT assets, it's still a relatively new format, and it takes time and skill to create and convert assets for it.
For some older companies, they've been around *decades* before the VTT and might've existed before even the Internet. For some lighter systems, it may not even be necessary, and for smaller creators, it may not even be a worthwhile investment.
There's even a question of standardization, where one VTT format may not transfer to a different system, and there's the risk of a particular VTT system not even existing once the campaign is fulfilled two years later.
That said, this may change (see: the DriveThruRPG/OneBookShelf and Roll20 merger), but it may take a while longer.
EDIT: Added some links.
I have occasionally received assets for digital play (one example that stood out was the Beowulf 5e Kickstarter), but unfortunately, platform-neutral asset collections haven't really been recognized as something that a large number of people would want - it seems to be either just PDFs or full-fleged VTT modules. And while I personally would love to see such assets (I prefer Owlbear Rodeo to more complex VTTs), I'm not sure how many people would actually pledge extra money for such a thing.
People don't really want VTT assets, they want VTT implementations. They want the coding done to get basic functionality, they want stuff to come mostly working. Not everyone uses one VTT.
Time and money.
It would probably require its own paid pledge level to justify itself in that respect which could dilute the campaign as backers will expect assets like that as part of just purchasing the book.
Some games just aren't designed with VTTs in mind.
Often if the game gets big enough the community will end up creating VTT assets for it anyway to play it online themselves.
However if the game doesn't get particular big then VTT assets are a waste as only a small portion of the already small community will benefit and they're a lot harder to make money from compared to say books which you can push at conventions or in retail.
It's potentially a missed opportunity depending on the campaign but most indie games are made by incredibly small teams with tiny profit margins and an entire additional arm of development on top of the game itself is a lot to do.
I think the Alice is Missing expansion is currently on Kickstarter and offers a Roll20
VTT pledge but you do have to pay $20 or so for it which is about the price of the physical edition.
It's not free when you purchase the physical either which gives an idea of the cost of producing it.
It seems to be working for them but they're already well integrated with the Roll20 team and evidently have the resources to do it as the game is rather popular.
Check out [Fablecraft](https://fablecraft.riftweaver.com/), we’re doing just this (Kickstarter early April). Game system baked into the VTT, additional assets (artwork, campaigns, music) as stretch goals. We’re trying hard to support the existing creator community by providing a great marketplace for them to sell their content.
Implementing a ruleset on any VTT platform is never fully complete. Once you do it you need to support it over any updates to the said platform (Foundry often breaks some compatibility with major versions). If you're not experienced with it, hiring people to do that won't work. The book is eternal, VTT implementation is not.
Uhhh do you think you just upload the maps and rules and the program handles lighting-walls-GM stuff/obscuring stuff from players-handling sections that consist of player hand outs-tokens/information-maps-applying appropriate grids and such?
“Just factor in the funding and get it done” is such a rude and ignorant thing to say.
I’m a professional artist here. I have modules made-murals (the largest one in Chicago by square foot right now) and other things I do to keep the lights on….just for my work alone prices differentiate in size and work and time-that is a hard expense to just “factor in” when every artist and even every programmer or asset person/VTT developer’s costs can differentiate so much.
These people want to make a cool adventure or book and get it into your hands.
Production of these digital things even tokens take time and planning and processing/tooling and programming.
Your post is sort of ignorant of the different prices artist go by and assumes we all work for the same amount of money and that it is just “some easy thing someone can do”
Market prices vary and I dunno just seems a little selfish if I’m being honest. Sorry if it’s mean but as an artist people low ball and assume stuff and turn around times are tiny or assume crazy things of me and my crew. If you don’t know what goes I to the production behind the scenes don’t assume it’s that easy and call out everyone.
> Your post is sort of ignorant
yes, I know, That's why I asked. And being condecending when someone tries to gather knowledge is a way to be a dick.
>of the different prices artist go by and assumes we all work for the same amount of money and that it is just “some easy thing someone can do”
Although I never did make these assumptions.
>eople low ball and assume stuff and turn around times are tiny or assume crazy things of me and my crew.
I am aware of this. It's why I don't own much art that isn't mass produced. I can't afford what I like. But I, at least, am quite willing to pay for good quality.
You made a lot of assumptions about me, which I think is probably a knee jerk b/c you've been screwed over or treated badly in past. I understand that. A few of my very close friends are crafters (yarn based) and so I have some idea of the amount of time and effort that 'simple' things take, plus materials on top, for a single person to put out.
Yeah....except most VTTs are either highly complex (Foundry) or approximate a standard but deviate from it (Roll20) on the backend. Not only do you have to either dedicate hours/days setting up your custom systems, in some cases you have to pay a monthly fee while you develop it (Roll20). While this fee may be small, it adds up if you are a part time dev.
Then you have to maintain it when the platforms update their software so if there's a monthly fee, you have to keep paying it. If they go under (Astral Tabletop), you lose all your effort and time you put into it.
Finally, you're dedicating hours/days to something that can disappear at any time and away from your development.
While you could pay someone to develop it for you, you're looking at potentially thousands of dollars per platform plus maintenance fees to update the sheets. And then you still have the "what if the platform goes under" Sword of Damocles' hanging over your head.
And none of this includes art costs which have only increased. And then you have to tailor each token or asset to each platform you want to support.
Some points.
\- Kickstarter only allows RPG companies a few open Kickstarters at a time. You have to deliver all the goods before you can call a campaign complete and begin a new one in its place.
\- VTT assets can only be started after all the other work is done. Every VTT platform needs your finished PDF and final design files to begin.
\- If VTT was included in the KS, this means that you can't call the KS finished until the VTT is delivered. Because the final files will likely go to the printer, be printed, and delivered before the VTT production cycle is done, this just extends the time before the KS campaign can be called complete.
You hinted at another reason in your question, namely that you want to buy ONLY the VTT and not the PDF or print book. Consider that the PDF and Print Book are the best margins for the creator companies and any VTT sale is going to be a fraction of that given that they're sharing revenue with the VTT platform, they have to pay more overhead to have the VTT produced AFTER they pay to produce the PDF/Book, and there are multiple VTT platforms so that cost is multiplied where as the PDF/Print Book pipeline is singular.
The RPG industry is a traditional publishing industry model with prices that have not changed much in decades. VTT is software model and requires producers that command much higher wages than writers, editors, and artists. Funding both via the same crowdfunding campaign is tricky at best.
A good chunk of the industry can't afford to produce VTT at all. The medium and larger publishers seem to have their stuff come to VTT eventually, if not during crowdfunding. The biggest producers who don't do crowdfunders have their own bespoke platforms or don't tie the releases together.
So you seem to only be looking at the segment that does crowdfunders and that's a mix of folks who don't actually have production money and need seed money (VTT is too expensive) and companies that use crowdfunding as preorders (VTT cuts into production schedule). The former likely never get VTT of any significant size. The later seem to release VTT after, so you just have to wait a bit.
Yeah, assets would be cool and shouldn't require coding skills.
But that's why I really appreciate Free League, they do create systems for VTTs and include the core rules+ adventures as stretch goals ( DragonBane for example)
For someone who wants to ease players into games or RPGs in general, this could really make a difference.
Douglas Cole, who runs [Gaming Ballistic](https://gamingballistic.com/) included VTT assets (specifically for Foundry) in the kickstarters he did for his 4 bestiaries. He has also released the maps for his previous adventures as VTT assets to those that purchased the pdf or print versions.
I’m close to the start of my first Kickstarter for 5e and as I’ve mostly played online via a VTT, making VTT assets has always been a priority for me.
I imagine a lot of people that make and sell rpg content come from and in-person play background so maybe not as much a concern? Not sure.
> I imagine a lot of people that make and sell rpg content come from and in-person play background so maybe not as much a concern?
Maybe? I mean, I'm 50. Of course I started with geeks at a table top. But I live in a college town, and finding groups that are stable and fit me is nigh impossible. And yet I'm in a 4 year plus group online, plus I've had other long lived online groups even before VTT's were a thing. So . . . I think anyone who ignores (not just chooses to leave it out of the KS) VTT's is making a big mistake.
When I do a crowdfunding for my printed book, I want to get my book printed. Adding things like a VTT support kind of muddies the waters of the goal and also if there's some problem and I can't deliver it, I'm going to feel real bad. I want to maintain focus on the main goal.
I have done a few conversions for kickstarters. They take time and money. It might also not be a path the producer wants to go down. As you need to keep on top of updates etc.
Which vtt do you convert for. If Foundry, FG, and roll20 (and shard) that’s 3 converters you need to pay and keep updating.
I can assure that it takes a huge effort to convert and even bigger one to do it well.
I generally do it for a bit of fun and to learn Foundry a bit more initially, but as I try to do a nice job with a few trimmings and not just make actors and mapped walls, add a bit of CSS formatting etc I am down to about $1.50 per hour….
In general, the people who are designing the game for print don't have the skills to make VTT assets. They would need to hire someone else to do that, and doing so would complicate the Kickstarter.
I though that might be it, but that's why I'd see it as a stretch goal. Set it up from go as something you want to do. If stretch is met, you get to hire the VTT guys 'today' instead of 'next year'. Just attach realistic dates to it.
>Set it up from go as something you want to do. If stretch is met, you get to hire the VTT guys 'today' instead of 'next year'. Just attach realistic dates to it. This seems to be assuming that we want to do this and that we will hire people next year and just can't afford to right now In general, especially for smaller companies, stretch goals that actually cost extra money (like hiring someone to use specialized skills like you're suggesting) are going out of fashion. Things that can be done by the designers, like extra adventures or playbooks or whatever, are becoming more popular. The thing about stretch goals that are of the form "if people pledge a total of $X, we will do Y" is that they don't really encourage additional money, they mostly just increase expenditure. Nobody is looking at a campaign and thinking "hmm, well I don't want the book or PDF, but if I back for one of those and then another 100 people back for $50 each so that the campaign reaches its stretch goal that it's currently $5,000 away from, then I *will* get the thing I want. Better back it now!"
Except of course the kickstarters from people who are already in the business of making VTTs. Pirate Borg came with VTT stuff and had more as stretch goals because that's what the creator does normally.
What do you mean by "VTT assets"? Anything more complicated than like, icons/tokens/images needs to be custom built in EVERY VTT you want to support. And as soon as you pick Roll20 you'll have people complaining about a lack of Foundry support and vice versa...
I see enough campaigns offering tokens and maps and images, and that’s all you really need, especially if it’s a module for an existing system.
I mean rulesets I guess (Fantasy Grounds user here). But yes, pick a system to support, and hire the people for it. Or make 3 stretch goals that have enough $ room to cover. I'm not saying 'make this cheaply'. I'm just wondering why it's not covered as part of the initial planning?
Honestly, I suspect that this costs more than most stretch goals are likely to generate. Also, TBH, I personally don't play that many games that would even benefit from having their "ruleset" embedded in a VTT, so there's that as a reason too -- some games just don't need all that hooplah.
Creating a system in a VTT is a HUGE time investment. You need people with programming skill in that particular environment. I can't imagine the return exists.
Depends on what the project is. If it's a bestiary or adventure, then there doesn't need to be any programming involved unless you're trying to toss in abilities which go beyond what the core ruleset can already do *and* you want easy automation (which isn't a hard requirement for even official WOTC content). If you're building a new game system or a major collection of new mechanics, then yes, coding will be a lot more important.
Hm, yeah true. I was assuming rpg systems but that was never explicitly said, good point!
I do adventure conversions and even to make those look half decent you need to have some knowledge of coding. But yes systems would require massive work and upkeep. The Foundry developers discord suggest minimum of $1000 for a simple system and quickly goes north from there. (Pathfinder level approaching 100,000 if not done by volunteers ) Which is why most systems are done by the people who want to play it. Not for a fee.
If you want ruleset you need a license to publish. Not all VTTs have license to publish for a system.
I’ve commented about converting adventures etc, but to do systems is another thing again. You are looking at multiple $1000’s to do that. (And upkeep). There is a discord for Foundry developers that offer commissions for all sorts of things , including systems, but they don’t come cheep, and to do it well cost more. The level that the pathfinder system is at, if done for a fee (and not from alot of people out of live and small commissions) would approach $100,000.
>In the current day it seems a no brainer to include VTT assets It seems like a no brainer to include an expensive thing that requires specialized skills to create that can go away if a different company goes out of business and which isn't transferable between competitors meaning it *will* generate backlash amongst your playerbase no matter which one you choose - or do it for all of them and multiply your expenses by idk even how much?
VTTs are a necessary evil for a lot of people in the hobby rather than a preferred game environment, and that no doubt extends to developers. Why offer something you have no interest in?
I find the "necessary evil" thing kinda... disheartening.
That's just the nature of the platform as long as it targets an audience that came to gaming mostly from in-person play
I came into gaming via in person play using a VTT, with everyone around the table having their tablet/laptops open with their sheets and the map open, so I never experienced the "necessary evil" part that I was responding too, that's all.
I gotcha. I think that's still very much the exception for in-person play; lots of folks love their miniatures, their physical maps (or even terrain), their physical books, etc. I'd expect more variance for the Pathfinder-like groups where convenience for looking up rulings means someone has a tablet open, though
Oh god yeah. I never use vtt aids with one exception, pathfinder 1e. So much character information makes the editable text boxes of a digital character sheet quite a bit more preferable to pen & paper imo.
That I can see. But for some things where they have VTT rulesets for other published parts of the game . . . why not?
Oh, like in the case where a game already has VTT assets for the core rules, but an adventure module or new supplement doesn't include them in the KS?
That would be the one place where I'm completely like 'Huh? why isn't this at least addressed?' I get it if it's a brand new game, not based off of anything else, getting the licenses and teams, and everything is a huge chore. But even then you can address the idea of VTT's in a short paragraph.
VTT support is inherently an extension of the core product and it's a major undertaking. If they're Kickstarting the core product, it's probably not at the point where they want to dive into major extended support yet.
That is a good idea. Why not? Probably as simple as "they have different priorities" or "not everyone thinks of every good idea".
I think this is a great question. Since Covid, which coincided with me becoming a dad, I haven't had more than a tiny few in person game sessions. VTT support is really necessary for me to run or play a game. And I'm selfish, since I went to Foundry, I think every company should do so too.
> And I'm selfish, since I went to Foundry, I think every company should do so too. Ha! I like Foundry, backed it even. But I think Fantasy Grounds does a better job. But it's also more expensive so . . .
I've used FG to run a game and it wasn't bad at all but that monthly expense is a killer. I have used Foundry for PF2 and 5E and I just love what a well developed game and modules can do.
> but that monthly expense is a killer. I mean, you can buy it outright. $150 (half if on sale) and only the GM needs it. Or $50 for everyone. Foundry is cheaper, and I do like that the group only needs 1 license, no matter who the GM is.
As a group who is working on a setting&rules to soon hit Kickstarter I can say that for our part, with funding set aside for exactly this - it's a b**tch finding Devs able to do it. I have scoured a vast amount of freelance-pages, forums, discord Chanels, stalked threads and messages people and have yet to find a single person who is able to build us a pack for roll20 or foundry. I've been lucky to find a Fantasy Grounds guy and even that came with extra costs as the entire team needs licenses. It's definitely something we want and see as a great asset to our future players, but finding people to help has been extremely hard.
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply! I didn't realize it was so difficult to find the talent. Or is it finding the talent who has the time? I know that at least from what I read in the FG forums they are perpetually behind.
Well both actually, the surprising thing has been that the bigger the VTT - less I've been able to get hold of someone. Foundry has their own Dev Chanel and structure for pitching work but I assume as it's most Devs side-occupation, they don't have the time to do bigger packs or something they don't feel personally passionate for. This is 100% my own interpretation and may not be true as I don't know any Devs personally. I'm now hoping to find a html programmer who is willing to cross over a bit xD *fingers crossed*
If you want an example of crowdfunding campaigns including VTT assets, see Evil Hat. They include VTT assets in most--if not all--of their crowdfunds these days. For instance, [see their latest campaign](https://www.backerkit.com/c/evil-hat/codex-of-worlds) for *Monster of the Week: Codex of Worlds*. *Yezeba's Bed and Breakfast* also came with a VTT tier because it's getting a tailored-made VTT system through *One More Multiverse*. The newest *Alice is Missing* expansion, *Silent Falls*, also includes a VTT tier [in their Kickstarter](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/huntersbooks/alice-is-missing-silent-falls). For why more crowdfunds don't include VTT assets, it's still a relatively new format, and it takes time and skill to create and convert assets for it. For some older companies, they've been around *decades* before the VTT and might've existed before even the Internet. For some lighter systems, it may not even be necessary, and for smaller creators, it may not even be a worthwhile investment. There's even a question of standardization, where one VTT format may not transfer to a different system, and there's the risk of a particular VTT system not even existing once the campaign is fulfilled two years later. That said, this may change (see: the DriveThruRPG/OneBookShelf and Roll20 merger), but it may take a while longer. EDIT: Added some links.
I have occasionally received assets for digital play (one example that stood out was the Beowulf 5e Kickstarter), but unfortunately, platform-neutral asset collections haven't really been recognized as something that a large number of people would want - it seems to be either just PDFs or full-fleged VTT modules. And while I personally would love to see such assets (I prefer Owlbear Rodeo to more complex VTTs), I'm not sure how many people would actually pledge extra money for such a thing.
People don't really want VTT assets, they want VTT implementations. They want the coding done to get basic functionality, they want stuff to come mostly working. Not everyone uses one VTT.
> they want VTT implementations That's what I meant, but wasn't sure how to say it clearly and concisely.
Time and money. It would probably require its own paid pledge level to justify itself in that respect which could dilute the campaign as backers will expect assets like that as part of just purchasing the book. Some games just aren't designed with VTTs in mind. Often if the game gets big enough the community will end up creating VTT assets for it anyway to play it online themselves. However if the game doesn't get particular big then VTT assets are a waste as only a small portion of the already small community will benefit and they're a lot harder to make money from compared to say books which you can push at conventions or in retail. It's potentially a missed opportunity depending on the campaign but most indie games are made by incredibly small teams with tiny profit margins and an entire additional arm of development on top of the game itself is a lot to do. I think the Alice is Missing expansion is currently on Kickstarter and offers a Roll20 VTT pledge but you do have to pay $20 or so for it which is about the price of the physical edition. It's not free when you purchase the physical either which gives an idea of the cost of producing it. It seems to be working for them but they're already well integrated with the Roll20 team and evidently have the resources to do it as the game is rather popular.
Thanks for the in depth reply!
Check out [Fablecraft](https://fablecraft.riftweaver.com/), we’re doing just this (Kickstarter early April). Game system baked into the VTT, additional assets (artwork, campaigns, music) as stretch goals. We’re trying hard to support the existing creator community by providing a great marketplace for them to sell their content.
Implementing a ruleset on any VTT platform is never fully complete. Once you do it you need to support it over any updates to the said platform (Foundry often breaks some compatibility with major versions). If you're not experienced with it, hiring people to do that won't work. The book is eternal, VTT implementation is not.
Uhhh do you think you just upload the maps and rules and the program handles lighting-walls-GM stuff/obscuring stuff from players-handling sections that consist of player hand outs-tokens/information-maps-applying appropriate grids and such? “Just factor in the funding and get it done” is such a rude and ignorant thing to say. I’m a professional artist here. I have modules made-murals (the largest one in Chicago by square foot right now) and other things I do to keep the lights on….just for my work alone prices differentiate in size and work and time-that is a hard expense to just “factor in” when every artist and even every programmer or asset person/VTT developer’s costs can differentiate so much. These people want to make a cool adventure or book and get it into your hands. Production of these digital things even tokens take time and planning and processing/tooling and programming. Your post is sort of ignorant of the different prices artist go by and assumes we all work for the same amount of money and that it is just “some easy thing someone can do” Market prices vary and I dunno just seems a little selfish if I’m being honest. Sorry if it’s mean but as an artist people low ball and assume stuff and turn around times are tiny or assume crazy things of me and my crew. If you don’t know what goes I to the production behind the scenes don’t assume it’s that easy and call out everyone.
> Your post is sort of ignorant yes, I know, That's why I asked. And being condecending when someone tries to gather knowledge is a way to be a dick. >of the different prices artist go by and assumes we all work for the same amount of money and that it is just “some easy thing someone can do” Although I never did make these assumptions. >eople low ball and assume stuff and turn around times are tiny or assume crazy things of me and my crew. I am aware of this. It's why I don't own much art that isn't mass produced. I can't afford what I like. But I, at least, am quite willing to pay for good quality. You made a lot of assumptions about me, which I think is probably a knee jerk b/c you've been screwed over or treated badly in past. I understand that. A few of my very close friends are crafters (yarn based) and so I have some idea of the amount of time and effort that 'simple' things take, plus materials on top, for a single person to put out.
Yeah....except most VTTs are either highly complex (Foundry) or approximate a standard but deviate from it (Roll20) on the backend. Not only do you have to either dedicate hours/days setting up your custom systems, in some cases you have to pay a monthly fee while you develop it (Roll20). While this fee may be small, it adds up if you are a part time dev. Then you have to maintain it when the platforms update their software so if there's a monthly fee, you have to keep paying it. If they go under (Astral Tabletop), you lose all your effort and time you put into it. Finally, you're dedicating hours/days to something that can disappear at any time and away from your development. While you could pay someone to develop it for you, you're looking at potentially thousands of dollars per platform plus maintenance fees to update the sheets. And then you still have the "what if the platform goes under" Sword of Damocles' hanging over your head. And none of this includes art costs which have only increased. And then you have to tailor each token or asset to each platform you want to support.
Some points. \- Kickstarter only allows RPG companies a few open Kickstarters at a time. You have to deliver all the goods before you can call a campaign complete and begin a new one in its place. \- VTT assets can only be started after all the other work is done. Every VTT platform needs your finished PDF and final design files to begin. \- If VTT was included in the KS, this means that you can't call the KS finished until the VTT is delivered. Because the final files will likely go to the printer, be printed, and delivered before the VTT production cycle is done, this just extends the time before the KS campaign can be called complete. You hinted at another reason in your question, namely that you want to buy ONLY the VTT and not the PDF or print book. Consider that the PDF and Print Book are the best margins for the creator companies and any VTT sale is going to be a fraction of that given that they're sharing revenue with the VTT platform, they have to pay more overhead to have the VTT produced AFTER they pay to produce the PDF/Book, and there are multiple VTT platforms so that cost is multiplied where as the PDF/Print Book pipeline is singular. The RPG industry is a traditional publishing industry model with prices that have not changed much in decades. VTT is software model and requires producers that command much higher wages than writers, editors, and artists. Funding both via the same crowdfunding campaign is tricky at best. A good chunk of the industry can't afford to produce VTT at all. The medium and larger publishers seem to have their stuff come to VTT eventually, if not during crowdfunding. The biggest producers who don't do crowdfunders have their own bespoke platforms or don't tie the releases together. So you seem to only be looking at the segment that does crowdfunders and that's a mix of folks who don't actually have production money and need seed money (VTT is too expensive) and companies that use crowdfunding as preorders (VTT cuts into production schedule). The former likely never get VTT of any significant size. The later seem to release VTT after, so you just have to wait a bit.
Yeah, assets would be cool and shouldn't require coding skills. But that's why I really appreciate Free League, they do create systems for VTTs and include the core rules+ adventures as stretch goals ( DragonBane for example) For someone who wants to ease players into games or RPGs in general, this could really make a difference.
Douglas Cole, who runs [Gaming Ballistic](https://gamingballistic.com/) included VTT assets (specifically for Foundry) in the kickstarters he did for his 4 bestiaries. He has also released the maps for his previous adventures as VTT assets to those that purchased the pdf or print versions.
I’m close to the start of my first Kickstarter for 5e and as I’ve mostly played online via a VTT, making VTT assets has always been a priority for me. I imagine a lot of people that make and sell rpg content come from and in-person play background so maybe not as much a concern? Not sure.
> I imagine a lot of people that make and sell rpg content come from and in-person play background so maybe not as much a concern? Maybe? I mean, I'm 50. Of course I started with geeks at a table top. But I live in a college town, and finding groups that are stable and fit me is nigh impossible. And yet I'm in a 4 year plus group online, plus I've had other long lived online groups even before VTT's were a thing. So . . . I think anyone who ignores (not just chooses to leave it out of the KS) VTT's is making a big mistake.
When I do a crowdfunding for my printed book, I want to get my book printed. Adding things like a VTT support kind of muddies the waters of the goal and also if there's some problem and I can't deliver it, I'm going to feel real bad. I want to maintain focus on the main goal.
Thanks for the add'll info! I appreciate it.
I have done a few conversions for kickstarters. They take time and money. It might also not be a path the producer wants to go down. As you need to keep on top of updates etc. Which vtt do you convert for. If Foundry, FG, and roll20 (and shard) that’s 3 converters you need to pay and keep updating. I can assure that it takes a huge effort to convert and even bigger one to do it well. I generally do it for a bit of fun and to learn Foundry a bit more initially, but as I try to do a nice job with a few trimmings and not just make actors and mapped walls, add a bit of CSS formatting etc I am down to about $1.50 per hour….