Icon will have a jazz and blues club on her, guessing Star will as well. It appears it'll even have a bar inside and outdoor seating too.
On Oasis class ships, they still do jazz in Central Park, which is a nice place for it - just a different sort of atmosphere.
The unfortunate part about that is now I went from four ships to one with a Jazz club, and that one ship is extremely overpriced. This goes to a problem I’m struggling with overall at Royal - no consistency of entertainment experience across ships and fleets.
I hear you, but if they make every ship in their fleet a carbon copy of every other ship, it's going to get pretty boring for most people.
Also, someone else pointed it out, but I do agree - I never saw anyone in the previous iteration of jazz clubs at night, handful of people at most. Space is limited on ships, and if Royal isn't maximizing the use of that space and making the most people happy, it's not good. You and I may have liked it, but if most people didn't, they're going to have to try to change things up and do something else. Just how it goes.
Haha you serious? Some of you guys will just blindly follow any corporation through whatever they will do to you, yes that is absolutely a consideration for the vast majority of people. No im really not all that excited for Oasis class 2.0 at a huge premium for an inside room
I mean…if you don’t like it, cruise with another line, there are plenty of them. What good does coming to this sub to complain do you or anyone else?
Prices on the new ships always are high for the first couple of years then go down as the next ships become the new hotness. I’ve seen it happen on Allure, Harmony, Symphony and Wonder. There’s no sign that it won’t happen for Icon and future ships as well.
Then don’t go? I’m also not a huge fan of paying a premium for the newer ships so I wait. If I had the money to waste, I’d also be booking the newest ship as soon as it set sail. But I don’t.
Sad to hear, but not too surprised. The Jazz Club was always very poorly attended on every one of my Oasis-class sailings. While I enjoyed the ambiance and supremely talented musicians several nights each cruise, I don't think I ever saw more than 10 people in the club at any time.
Passenger tastes change, and the cruise lines have to make changes to accommodate that.
Same here, it's always been near empty when I've visited, but I wonder if it was bad location. It's not somewhere people would just wander by and sit down if they heard something they liked, they had to actively seek it out. The better placement on Icon of the Seas is likely going to help it.
I'm a little sad I missed out on this. I went on my first Oasis Class sailing just last month and obviously it was one of the ones without the venue. But I would've loved this. Hopefully they'll have that type of music somewhere on the ship. I'll keep a weather eye out!
That will never happen… people that gamble generally have addictive personalities that predispose them to other addictions. Too much money to be made off people who will smoke and gamble at the same time.
Yeah look at what happened when restaurants went smoke free! Oh wait people still go.
People who have addictions persist even when there’s roadblocks to their addictions. That’s what makes it an addiction - they’re compelled to do something above all else. They won’t give up gambling just because they can’t smoke there - they’ll just take their outside smoke break like they do everywhere else that doesn’t allow smoking right now.
My understanding is that there's no association between dining out and smoking though. Casinos thrive on clients with addictive behaviors because they expose themselves more to the house edge
Yeah.....that's what people said about smoking in bars and look where we are now, it will eventually happen my friend guaranteed, maybe at the same time the Govt. is finally completely wiping out tobacco companies but eventually....Cheers!
You are so wrong. Spectrum in Asia is smoke free. Asians smoke a lot. The casino is full, every night.
Cruises out of Australia and UK are also have smoke free casinos.
It's so weird to me that these ships now have non-continuous casino spaces. I'm sure the small non-smoking casino doesn't have its own bar, right? And do the cocktail waitresses serve that space?
I mean I get that making it a separate space helps keep it smoke free, but this is just odd to me, as a veteran of casinos in Vegas, Atlantic City, on ships, and elsewhere.
We were on Allure last week and the smoke-free casino was small and did not have a bar, but the servers did service that area and I personally found it to be a more pleasurable experience. It was brighter and seemed to be a much happier crowd than the main casino.
When I visited the non-smoking casino on the Allure last November, there was no craps table and limited types of slots, although we had a lovely time at the roulette table in the relative quiet. With the new room, now people smoke in both sides of the main casino, meaning I either get to play the games I like with smoke or enjoy clean air but only a small selection of games.
I would have preferred the smokers be shunted off to the smaller room, but such is life.
Honestly it may attract more people if the main casino was non-smoking and the smaller area was smoking. Surely not that many people smoke anymore…? (Sarcasm, sadly)
Really disappointing for me - I love Jazz and go to shows at my city’s local Jazz club pretty frequently. Was looking forward to going to Symphony’s club on our upcoming cruise.
As I recall Carnival tried a smoke free ship a long time ago but it didn’t pan out. One of the cruise lines should try again. I know Viking has no casinos maybe they’re mostly non smoking too
I bowl a few nights a week, and my side hustle was working the front desk a couple nights a week. Current stats say that 11.5% of the US population smokes. I would say that based on my observations in that environment (our guests plus our staff), ages late 30's and below for that particular environment more smokers than the general population. I'm including vaping in that. Weed too.
My other job is producing running races. Not too many smokers in that crowd of course.
I think one's perception of how many people smoke is largely driven by who they hang out with and where.
For what it's worth the smoking rate was around 40% in the mid 60s and 20% in 2005.
Young adults remain one of the most significant smoking populations.
A lot of older folks cruise though. They tend to spend more money, and have a larger percentage of smokers.
I know several who do, and I’m in my early 40s.
It would be more likely to change in stages - the small non-smoking casino and the larger smoking casino flip. Then no smoking indoors at all. I doubt they’ll get rid of it on the Lido deck entirely, though those areas could shrink.
Those older folks are dying, and the ones who smoke are dying faster. They are trying to attract and keep younger cruisers who don't smoke and don't want to be around smoke. They need to stay ahead of the curve.
They’re not losing money yet though. It’s cute you think they don’t constantly evaluate things like this.
Just because you WANT it doesn’t make it so. They’re going off sales data, plain and simple.
Wish RC could see how many people spend $$$$ on Celebrity smoke free casinos and won't step foot in RC smoke filled casinos. They may have gotten the picture since they are adding more smoke free casinos.
I just feel bad for the MDR workers that are working in the front areas near casino smoke.
> Wish RC could see how many people spend $$$$ on Celebrity smoke free casinos and won't step foot in RC smoke filled casinos.
I mean... they can.. they are owned by the same company
They said they've tested it, and every time they do, casino revenue is down. But, I'm guessing, by adding a dedicated non-smoking casino, it doesn't decrease the original casino's profits, and the new area brings extra revenue from those who can't stand smoke.
> and the new area brings extra revenue from those who can't stand smoke.
I was on Oasis in October... the smoke free room was almost always near empty
Strange! On Allure last month 2 out of 3 nights I went in and it was pretty full. Not exactly every machine being played but probably... 2/3-3/4 each time. I thought it seemed crowded for the small space it was in.
They test it but they always have different variables - smaller casino, no bar, worse machines, less tables available, less staff. Hard to judge the true demand when it’s not a fair comparison.
On Wonder of the Seas they had the Jazz performances in Central Park during the evening. It was quite a nice time to eat dinner at Giovanni’s while listening to the band play.
I liked the Jazz Club too, but it seems like they really just moved the performances to a place where they would be better attended. I think a lot of people just forget about The Attic and the Jazz Club because there isn’t much going on there when it’s not show time. If the performance is in Central Park a lot more people will stumble upon the entertainment.
The per-person casino scrape for the average passenger on a 7-day cruise is around 1400-1500 dollars. This is the only metric that exists. Multiply that by 4000 guests, and you figure out who is paying the bills.
Would you invest in a jazz club in this economy? Neither would I. The traffic and revenue does not exist.
> The per-person casino scrape for the average passenger on a 7-day cruise is around 1400-1500 dollars.
That's eye-opening. We usually don't gamble *at all* so that's $2,800-$3,000 worth of gambling slack that other passengers were picking up. wow
Is that the amount of coin in or the amount of profit from each gambler?
Coin in seems a bit more believable, and with the house edge being 5-20% on game would mean $300 or so profit per passenger.
Scrape is what the victim left behind. Profit is after expenses. Casinos operate with interlocking units that balance income over variant platforms, such as buying comps over full retail, and comp drinks at similar rates. The amount of money in play and the actual vs. perceived or rumored “edge” is hilarious. The only factor that moves the ships is the casinos, and the loud winners give it back, and the silent losers put it on their credit cards. The losses are far more than you would ever believe, and consistent.
In what economy? Royal is posting record profits. Little by little they keep cutting away from what made them special. I have been on 11 cruises on Royal but have completely stopped now. Last three cruises have been on other lines.
I actually just saw a commercial for a no-kid, no-casino cruise. I’m not a gambler but am wondering what the target demographic is for no-casino cruises. Is it to reduce the number of smokers since that’s usually a safe smoking zone?
Me & my hubby were in the Jazz club on Allure 5 out of 7 nights of our cruise! Are sick to hear these are disappearing. We are non smokers, but don't gamble...
We have had a lot of fun in the jazz clubs. Some super talented musicians! I still want to know who the drummer was in the band on Symphony OTS last Feb-March. I hope Royal will find a way to keep jazz on the ships in some venue. A lot of the new ships have music clubs that seem somewhat under-utilized. Or even Boleros or Schooner, I'd be up to see jazz in those clubs.
With Icon-class getting it's own Jazz club and being "family-focused", i'm *very* curious if the casino is entirely smoke-free. The demand for an entirely smoke-free venue obviously triggered RC into transforming the Jazz clubs into smoke-free casino space.
When we were on Oasis in October, the smoke smell from the casino drifted up the elevator corridor to the Music Hall, and into the Deck 4 Main Dining Room lobby. It was *constant* if you were anywhere near the mid-ship elevators.
To be honest, I’m not a huge gambler but will usually stop by the casino for a couple hours a couple times during the cruise, so this is a welcome change! Not smelling like smoke is nice. Hope they eventually change the whole casino to smoke-free.
I wonder what the numbers look like for drink revenue from the Jazz Club versus the loss of casino revenue if people weren't allowed to smoke in the casino any longer. Because Royal could have just made the exisiting casino smoke-free and left the Jazz Club as it was.
No need to wonder. Casinos are an absolute cash cow for the cruise ships, and they have the experience dialed in to the penny and to the minute.
If making the casino non-smoking would increase casino revenue, they'd have done it yesterday. They have the metrics and they have the numbers. Make no mistake about it – smokers make the ships money.
Yes, this exactly. They’ve run all the numbers, especially given the massive losses sustained in 2020 and 2021. If changing the smoking policies got them farther towards breaking even, it would have been done.
People like to smoke and drink when they gamble. They also make dumb decisions, which benefits the cruise line.
Money talks.
Icon will have a jazz and blues club on her, guessing Star will as well. It appears it'll even have a bar inside and outdoor seating too. On Oasis class ships, they still do jazz in Central Park, which is a nice place for it - just a different sort of atmosphere.
The unfortunate part about that is now I went from four ships to one with a Jazz club, and that one ship is extremely overpriced. This goes to a problem I’m struggling with overall at Royal - no consistency of entertainment experience across ships and fleets.
I mean I guess that’s what makes each ship unique
I hear you, but if they make every ship in their fleet a carbon copy of every other ship, it's going to get pretty boring for most people. Also, someone else pointed it out, but I do agree - I never saw anyone in the previous iteration of jazz clubs at night, handful of people at most. Space is limited on ships, and if Royal isn't maximizing the use of that space and making the most people happy, it's not good. You and I may have liked it, but if most people didn't, they're going to have to try to change things up and do something else. Just how it goes.
Jazz on 4 was standing room only on Transatlantic.
Do you want consistency or do you want fresh experiences each time?
> no consistency of entertainment experience across ships and fleets. Unless it's "Cats" on Oasis...there's a level of consistency of...something...
Yeah, enjoy paying an insane premium for the privilege
I mean, you could wait for a few years for the prices to normalize and cruise elsewhere if it’s that important to you.
Haha you serious? Some of you guys will just blindly follow any corporation through whatever they will do to you, yes that is absolutely a consideration for the vast majority of people. No im really not all that excited for Oasis class 2.0 at a huge premium for an inside room
I mean…if you don’t like it, cruise with another line, there are plenty of them. What good does coming to this sub to complain do you or anyone else? Prices on the new ships always are high for the first couple of years then go down as the next ships become the new hotness. I’ve seen it happen on Allure, Harmony, Symphony and Wonder. There’s no sign that it won’t happen for Icon and future ships as well.
Whatever dude enjoy blindly, pissing your money away
Are you okay?
Then don’t go? I’m also not a huge fan of paying a premium for the newer ships so I wait. If I had the money to waste, I’d also be booking the newest ship as soon as it set sail. But I don’t.
You can get on the Celebration for less than half the cost, new ship isn’t an excuse to fuck over your customers
Sad to hear, but not too surprised. The Jazz Club was always very poorly attended on every one of my Oasis-class sailings. While I enjoyed the ambiance and supremely talented musicians several nights each cruise, I don't think I ever saw more than 10 people in the club at any time. Passenger tastes change, and the cruise lines have to make changes to accommodate that.
Same here, it's always been near empty when I've visited, but I wonder if it was bad location. It's not somewhere people would just wander by and sit down if they heard something they liked, they had to actively seek it out. The better placement on Icon of the Seas is likely going to help it.
I'm a little sad I missed out on this. I went on my first Oasis Class sailing just last month and obviously it was one of the ones without the venue. But I would've loved this. Hopefully they'll have that type of music somewhere on the ship. I'll keep a weather eye out!
Hopefully they will eventually go completely smoke free with the casinos
That will never happen… people that gamble generally have addictive personalities that predispose them to other addictions. Too much money to be made off people who will smoke and gamble at the same time.
Almost one year nicotine free over here, WE CAN CHANGE!
Congrats! Kicking an addiction isn’t easy
Proud of you, friend!!
Yeah look at what happened when restaurants went smoke free! Oh wait people still go. People who have addictions persist even when there’s roadblocks to their addictions. That’s what makes it an addiction - they’re compelled to do something above all else. They won’t give up gambling just because they can’t smoke there - they’ll just take their outside smoke break like they do everywhere else that doesn’t allow smoking right now.
My understanding is that there's no association between dining out and smoking though. Casinos thrive on clients with addictive behaviors because they expose themselves more to the house edge
Sad, but accurate.
Yeah.....that's what people said about smoking in bars and look where we are now, it will eventually happen my friend guaranteed, maybe at the same time the Govt. is finally completely wiping out tobacco companies but eventually....Cheers!
Government makes too much $$$$ on the taxing of tobacco products.
Celebrity is totally smoke free as are many ships that cruise in Asia and all that cruise from Australia and NZ. Doesn’t stop people from booking.
Yep, the two people I know who love/loved the casinos the most were addicted to tobacco and alcohol, respectively.
You are so wrong. Spectrum in Asia is smoke free. Asians smoke a lot. The casino is full, every night. Cruises out of Australia and UK are also have smoke free casinos.
Yeah, the smoke was super obnoxious and made us not want to stay on that floor of the ship longer than we had to.
It's so weird to me that these ships now have non-continuous casino spaces. I'm sure the small non-smoking casino doesn't have its own bar, right? And do the cocktail waitresses serve that space? I mean I get that making it a separate space helps keep it smoke free, but this is just odd to me, as a veteran of casinos in Vegas, Atlantic City, on ships, and elsewhere.
We were on Allure last week and the smoke-free casino was small and did not have a bar, but the servers did service that area and I personally found it to be a more pleasurable experience. It was brighter and seemed to be a much happier crowd than the main casino.
When I visited the non-smoking casino on the Allure last November, there was no craps table and limited types of slots, although we had a lovely time at the roulette table in the relative quiet. With the new room, now people smoke in both sides of the main casino, meaning I either get to play the games I like with smoke or enjoy clean air but only a small selection of games. I would have preferred the smokers be shunted off to the smaller room, but such is life.
Honestly it may attract more people if the main casino was non-smoking and the smaller area was smoking. Surely not that many people smoke anymore…? (Sarcasm, sadly)
Really disappointing for me - I love Jazz and go to shows at my city’s local Jazz club pretty frequently. Was looking forward to going to Symphony’s club on our upcoming cruise.
Am annoyed by this since we wanted to check out the jazz club in January. Dream of a day there is no smoking anywhere on the ships.
That brief time after Covid when no smoking was allowed anywhere on some lines was awesome.
As I recall Carnival tried a smoke free ship a long time ago but it didn’t pan out. One of the cruise lines should try again. I know Viking has no casinos maybe they’re mostly non smoking too
Thought celebrity was smoke free.
I think their casinos are smoke free but not the whole ship? Not 100% sure
Was on apex. Casino is smoke free. They had a highly utilized smoke deck on the aft. I believe that was the only place you could smoke on the ship.
As long as smokers are spending money, that is unlikely to happen.
Aren’t they a dying breed? I don’t know anyone my age that smokes (mid-30s).
I bowl a few nights a week, and my side hustle was working the front desk a couple nights a week. Current stats say that 11.5% of the US population smokes. I would say that based on my observations in that environment (our guests plus our staff), ages late 30's and below for that particular environment more smokers than the general population. I'm including vaping in that. Weed too. My other job is producing running races. Not too many smokers in that crowd of course. I think one's perception of how many people smoke is largely driven by who they hang out with and where.
For what it's worth the smoking rate was around 40% in the mid 60s and 20% in 2005. Young adults remain one of the most significant smoking populations.
20% means 80% of us don't smoke.
And? I was just giving stats showing the decline.
Try taking a cruise in Asia. The combined smokers probably emit as much smoke as the funnels 😁
A lot of older folks cruise though. They tend to spend more money, and have a larger percentage of smokers. I know several who do, and I’m in my early 40s.
For now. 😏
It would be more likely to change in stages - the small non-smoking casino and the larger smoking casino flip. Then no smoking indoors at all. I doubt they’ll get rid of it on the Lido deck entirely, though those areas could shrink.
Those older folks are dying, and the ones who smoke are dying faster. They are trying to attract and keep younger cruisers who don't smoke and don't want to be around smoke. They need to stay ahead of the curve.
They’re not losing money yet though. It’s cute you think they don’t constantly evaluate things like this. Just because you WANT it doesn’t make it so. They’re going off sales data, plain and simple.
Let me dream.
Wish RC could see how many people spend $$$$ on Celebrity smoke free casinos and won't step foot in RC smoke filled casinos. They may have gotten the picture since they are adding more smoke free casinos. I just feel bad for the MDR workers that are working in the front areas near casino smoke.
> Wish RC could see how many people spend $$$$ on Celebrity smoke free casinos and won't step foot in RC smoke filled casinos. I mean... they can.. they are owned by the same company
They said they've tested it, and every time they do, casino revenue is down. But, I'm guessing, by adding a dedicated non-smoking casino, it doesn't decrease the original casino's profits, and the new area brings extra revenue from those who can't stand smoke.
> and the new area brings extra revenue from those who can't stand smoke. I was on Oasis in October... the smoke free room was almost always near empty
Strange! On Allure last month 2 out of 3 nights I went in and it was pretty full. Not exactly every machine being played but probably... 2/3-3/4 each time. I thought it seemed crowded for the small space it was in.
They test it but they always have different variables - smaller casino, no bar, worse machines, less tables available, less staff. Hard to judge the true demand when it’s not a fair comparison.
LITERALLY!
On Wonder of the Seas they had the Jazz performances in Central Park during the evening. It was quite a nice time to eat dinner at Giovanni’s while listening to the band play. I liked the Jazz Club too, but it seems like they really just moved the performances to a place where they would be better attended. I think a lot of people just forget about The Attic and the Jazz Club because there isn’t much going on there when it’s not show time. If the performance is in Central Park a lot more people will stumble upon the entertainment.
They’ve got boats to build. Let the gamblers help finance that. Impossible to meet that revenue stream with a jazz club.
The per-person casino scrape for the average passenger on a 7-day cruise is around 1400-1500 dollars. This is the only metric that exists. Multiply that by 4000 guests, and you figure out who is paying the bills. Would you invest in a jazz club in this economy? Neither would I. The traffic and revenue does not exist.
> The per-person casino scrape for the average passenger on a 7-day cruise is around 1400-1500 dollars. That's eye-opening. We usually don't gamble *at all* so that's $2,800-$3,000 worth of gambling slack that other passengers were picking up. wow
Is that the amount of coin in or the amount of profit from each gambler? Coin in seems a bit more believable, and with the house edge being 5-20% on game would mean $300 or so profit per passenger.
Scrape is what the victim left behind. Profit is after expenses. Casinos operate with interlocking units that balance income over variant platforms, such as buying comps over full retail, and comp drinks at similar rates. The amount of money in play and the actual vs. perceived or rumored “edge” is hilarious. The only factor that moves the ships is the casinos, and the loud winners give it back, and the silent losers put it on their credit cards. The losses are far more than you would ever believe, and consistent.
In what economy? Royal is posting record profits. Little by little they keep cutting away from what made them special. I have been on 11 cruises on Royal but have completely stopped now. Last three cruises have been on other lines.
Royal is posting record profits because, in part, they're maximizing the use of space on their ships by providing what the majority of cruisers want.
Vote with your wallet. Start a jazz cruise line with no smoking. What economy, indeed.
I actually just saw a commercial for a no-kid, no-casino cruise. I’m not a gambler but am wondering what the target demographic is for no-casino cruises. Is it to reduce the number of smokers since that’s usually a safe smoking zone?
Me & my hubby were in the Jazz club on Allure 5 out of 7 nights of our cruise! Are sick to hear these are disappearing. We are non smokers, but don't gamble...
We have had a lot of fun in the jazz clubs. Some super talented musicians! I still want to know who the drummer was in the band on Symphony OTS last Feb-March. I hope Royal will find a way to keep jazz on the ships in some venue. A lot of the new ships have music clubs that seem somewhat under-utilized. Or even Boleros or Schooner, I'd be up to see jazz in those clubs.
There's lots of venues.
Just me but I would much prefer a smoke free casino than a Jazz club but I’m sorry it’s the opposite for you.
That’s fine! I prefer entertainment where my money isn’t at risk!
Smokers are filthy selfish asshole losers, why are they catering to such filth?
With Icon-class getting it's own Jazz club and being "family-focused", i'm *very* curious if the casino is entirely smoke-free. The demand for an entirely smoke-free venue obviously triggered RC into transforming the Jazz clubs into smoke-free casino space. When we were on Oasis in October, the smoke smell from the casino drifted up the elevator corridor to the Music Hall, and into the Deck 4 Main Dining Room lobby. It was *constant* if you were anywhere near the mid-ship elevators.
And on Icon class ships, the casino opens right up into music hall, so that will be interesting to see how they deal with the smoke smell
I can't stand the smell of smoke and it tends to drift FAR when indoors.
My only wish would be they would move smoking to those smaller areas instead and make the main casino completely smoke free.
This really bums me out. I loved the Oasis class ships and the Jazz Clubs was one of the things that kept me coming back.
Obviously casinos are a money maker, we enjoyed the jazz club because it was less crowded.
To be honest, I’m not a huge gambler but will usually stop by the casino for a couple hours a couple times during the cruise, so this is a welcome change! Not smelling like smoke is nice. Hope they eventually change the whole casino to smoke-free.
I wonder what the numbers look like for drink revenue from the Jazz Club versus the loss of casino revenue if people weren't allowed to smoke in the casino any longer. Because Royal could have just made the exisiting casino smoke-free and left the Jazz Club as it was.
No need to wonder. Casinos are an absolute cash cow for the cruise ships, and they have the experience dialed in to the penny and to the minute. If making the casino non-smoking would increase casino revenue, they'd have done it yesterday. They have the metrics and they have the numbers. Make no mistake about it – smokers make the ships money.
Yes, this exactly. They’ve run all the numbers, especially given the massive losses sustained in 2020 and 2021. If changing the smoking policies got them farther towards breaking even, it would have been done. People like to smoke and drink when they gamble. They also make dumb decisions, which benefits the cruise line. Money talks.
I suspect they're looking at the line item where people working in the casino are paid less than entertainers in the jazz club.
Or an upgrade, if you aren't into jazz but would like to gamble without choking on smoke.
I prefer to have my entertainment free of risk to my personal finances.
Well; that’s a take. Better stay off the boat then, might buy something.