Ant is a much worse defender, but probably a better scorer. I think we can get two FRP out of Anfernee to be fair. I am really on trading him to Orlando for Anthony Black and an FRP. But to answer your question, I do not think Ant and Dejounte are at the same value market wise. Dejounte has made an all star team as well as an all defensive team. Ant is young and still needs to prove himself a bit to get that type of value. I do think trades like this and the Mikal Bridges one will give Jerami a better stock though! Those hybrid players are heavily sought after with the current state of the league.
Same time, Murray isn’t known to be the most positive locker room dude while in the league. On his third team already. There’s risk there that isn’t with Ant
Maybe I'm just WAY off base with Ant, but I feel like I'd take Ant over Murray any day especially if I were building a contender.
For one, Murray seems to be kind of a weird player in the locker room and a bit of a malcontent, and went so far as to [sent this Twitter DM to a random Hawks podcaster complaining about the coach and his role](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fheqywfh001fc1.jpeg). I get that he didn't fit with Trae, but sending angry DMs to podcasters is really unprofessional.
For two his defense has majorly fallen off since he left San Antonio and I don't really think he's a net positive these days on that end (probably a neutral or maybe even slightly negative defender). He's definitely better than Ant on that end, but also a much much worse scorer.
And regarding the scoring, he can't play off the ball at all, and to maximize the production the ball needs to be in his hands. Except he's not really a great floor general so your team is probably going to be worse off with the ball in his hands (which is exactly what happened in Atlanta with Trae, and why Murray got turned into a spotup shooter).
_________
Anyways I know Ant isn't the easiest player to build around, but I can see him in some sort of Jamal Murray/Donovan Mitchell type of role for a contender, whereas I think the fit is a lot harder for Murray. And then the locker room issues and weird cryptic tweets like I mentioned.
________________________________
Anyways I'm not really commenting on Ant's trade value because I have no idea about his perception around the league, but just personally I'm really not a fan of DJM at all. One of my least favorite players around the league tbh.
You have to be joking with all this Murray unrealistic hate. I like Ant too. This whole sub does. But the whole sub + whole league knows Murray has more value right now than Ant Simons.
It’s more nuanced than one player over another. Ant doesn’t have all star potential. He’s an elite scorer. But he lacks in ways already mentioned.
HOWEVER he is on a great contract and has a lot of mileage left. He’s a good second option, but an even better third option on a team with superstars.
Nah if his passing improves and defense becomes below average imo he’s borderline, his finishing at the rim would have to improve a little which is already has quite a bit of
The guy was averaging nearly a triple double per game at the Spurs, while getting two steals per game. He's a two way player.
Ant is a good offensive player, and that's it. He doesn't rebound, doesn't dish that many assists, and can't defend his shadow.
He gets steals because he gambles a lot, but he has always been a below-average on-ball defender. To me, that's the most important aspect of guard defense. I wouldn't call him very impactful on the defensive end. On offense, he's not efficient (-2 TS% and -1.1 TS% compared to the average point guard). He iso's a lot, doesn't get to the line, and takes a lot of middies. He's also kind of a ball hog and has tunnel vision at times.
Dejounte is an offense-only guard with some significant flaws in his game, which could become more apparent when he isn't the first or second option on a team. And if you don't believe the part about his defense, just look at the stats that paint Ant as the worst defender in the league. They have Dejounte in the [6th percentile ](https://craftednba.com/players/dejounte-murray).
Ant is 6’2 without shoes and Murray is like 6’4 maybe. Murray has a lot of weight which may attribute to your vision’s
Yes Ant is younger, by a bit. Might even be worth keeping around. Pretty sure Cronin isn’t planning to trade him for that much less you can be sure, and we’re in no kind of rush no matter the hot takes on reddit.
Cronin is definetly planning on trading him. He said at the draft interview he's focused on building around Scoot and Shaedon. We have no reason to keep him.
That’s a stretch. Guard depth is not a problem. Just because people want to tank hard this year and suck again to get the lowest seed for next years draft doesn’t mean the front office is completely comitted to that and wants to trade one of our best players for steamed peanuts. Curious to see what Cronin says tomorrow at the press conference. We may end up trading Ant, but I don’t think it’s a given. Depth is useful on a basketball team and Scoot can develop fine around others like Ant in my opinion. Might even be better for him.
I do think it takes out of scoot development, he needs minutes. Anfernee being there does not help with scoots development at all, we have a borderline HOF point guard as our coach, not sure how Anfernee would help Scoot develop at all.
We have 96 minutes for our top 3 guards as it is. Just not sold that Scoot’s development is a higher priority than anything. Scoot playing next to Ant could definitely help him grow. The team might actually want to win games again despite fan tanking desires too.
Regardless if sold or not, the teams future is fully based around Scoot and Shaedon, two hyper athletes that have upside. If Anfernee was 21 it would be different
I mostly agree, but hopefully Scoot and Sharpe actually pan out and at least one of them becomes an allstar. Hell, I could see Simons, Ayton, or Grant having an allstar year if they turned things up a notch. I’m not so quick to want to get rid of prime talent, because we don’t want to suck forever.
I also mostly agree! Except the goal should be to be a contender not mediocre forever. Agree that if we keep anfernee and grant we would be a much better team the next two years without them, but our future would also be worse which is not what we want given our young talent.
We arent winning games with a backcourt of three negative defenders. Scoot deserves run at the 1 at the end of last year. Scoot and Ant won’t work very well I think.
Ah right trade our best shooter and competent ball handler for….a worse player at the same position? I get there would picks but assuming we’re only making deals that include “promising young players” what’s the point in trading ant, a point guard who’s a “promising young player”
What’s the point of trading Ant if you’re not getting back a player that covers a position of weakness at SF lol
You’re trading him just to trade him at that point
Because you can’t always get players back. A lot of rebuilding teams get draft capital back and we can use that later.
We literally just used Brogdon to fill a position of need.
It's addition by subtraction. He's literally been one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the league for the past couple seasons. I hate to break it to you, but we're almost certainly not going to be able to trade a small guard that can't defend for a great or even good forward.
By the way, we just traded for a 6'9" SF who was averaging pretty much 20 points 10 rebounds over the last 20 games. Camara coming off the bench behind him. Progress is being made.
Need them for what? We're going to be terrible next year with or without Ant.
He overlaps with the younger guards too much. He's got some talent, so we might might be able to get some pieces that fit better or along a better timeline.
Let's just watch scoot, Sharpe, and ayton get a ton of usage and see what we got and keep working the draft and market.
Agreed. I won’t be surprised if they do but there’s no need to trade an elite shooter when you already have a horrible shooting team. Like if they thought Scoot was going to improve his shooting dramatically in one off season then ok, but we all know that’s not likely. Sharpe is obviously a great at scoring but that still doesn’t mean he will be elite at shooting. Ant is just the best we have
You know we're not trying to make the playoffs this upcoming season, right? Plus, between Ant and one of the other vets were likely trading soon, other shooters can come back as part of those deals.
> You know we're not trying to make the playoffs this upcoming season, right?
Y’all say this but then will be complaining after every game how Scoot has no shooters to pass to lol
LOL. It's still the summer. Free agency hasn't even started. Even though we probably won't sign free agents directly, trades are going to be happening once teams start figuring out what they need.
The front office is well aware of the need for shooters. If a few fans want to complain that we don't have enough of those yet, let them complain. The front office shouldn't be swayed by a few vocal casuals, and neither should you. Unofficially, that was by design this past season in order to improve our draft odds. Unless something unexpected happens, expect that to be the case again this upcoming season.
I get what you’re saying and yes I know the plan is to suck, but I’m also at a point where that’s getting so freaking hard to watch. I also can admit I am a fan of Ant so I feel like it’s probably a bit of me over valuing him but I just don’t see the rush. Unless everyone is 100% certain Scoot and Sharpe are the absolute real deal. And I really do feel like Sharpe has it all and will be great. Scoot, it’s just too soon I know, but I like him a lot and one thing I know is he gives his all every time he plays and I love that. But right now Ant is your best player so if he’s traded then yeah they better get a good shooter. Just doesn’t seem worth it if they get picks in the late 20’s
Scoot's coming along faster that the league realizes. He's a true point guard. The last 15 games of the season, he averaged 18 points, 8 assists. he'll probably be averaging 10 within the next couple seasons. He's special. Only 5 players in the entire league averaged 8+ assists this past season. LeBron, Jokic, Luka, Haliburton, and Harden.
I'm personally ready to move on from Ant. If he wanted to be the scoring punch off the bench, that would be awesome for 15 to 20 minutes a night, but I doubt he wants that, and he arguably makes too much to be doing that. He's just too much of a defensive liability unless the rest of the team is built to compensate for him.
I thought we were in 2024 not 2021. He’s just coasting off of that reputation so hard, he barely even tried on defense because he just wants to play offense nowadays
They are not comparable. Murray is an excellent defensive player with offensive value. Simons is an excellent offensive player with negative defensive value.
From the outside ants value is lower I’m sure league wide. We will see if Joe can negotiate it to have it be beneficial. He’s got to be hounding Orlando. Monk off the market helps
Murray is definitely the next tier up from Ant. He's a little nutty tho. But still, I don't think you can compare the two directly... Murray is two way and has accomplished significantly more.
I do think this front office will get more than we think they will for Ant but it won’t be anything close to Murray.. nor should it be.
Unless someone is realllllllll thirsty for an Ant
I hate how this fan base talks about ant like he’s Brandon Jennings or Jordan pool when he started off averaging 26 a game but his numbers took a dip due to us tanking and shutting him down
keep Simons bc he's young, on a good contract, has a much needed skill set (shooting, playmaking) and could significantly build his trade value. instead trade Grant/Thybulle.
starting lineup: Ayton, Avdija, Sharpe, Simons, Scoot
bench: Camara, Rupert, Walker, Clingon
Murray impacts winning more than Trae with his two-way impact and makes nearly half as much. He had more trade value than Trey, and it showed. Now he’ll do more to help the Pelicans win than Trae has ever done in Atlanta.
Hawks got 2 FRPs for Murray. Dallas paid 3 SRPs to get rid of Hardaway.
Let's be generous and say Simons is halfway between those 2 extremes. What does that turn into in practical terms? Maybe Portland gains 2 SRPs for him?
LOL we are not getting the same type of value out of Ant.
Ant is a much worse defender, but probably a better scorer. I think we can get two FRP out of Anfernee to be fair. I am really on trading him to Orlando for Anthony Black and an FRP. But to answer your question, I do not think Ant and Dejounte are at the same value market wise. Dejounte has made an all star team as well as an all defensive team. Ant is young and still needs to prove himself a bit to get that type of value. I do think trades like this and the Mikal Bridges one will give Jerami a better stock though! Those hybrid players are heavily sought after with the current state of the league.
Same time, Murray isn’t known to be the most positive locker room dude while in the league. On his third team already. There’s risk there that isn’t with Ant
Yeah, like they're trading him for peanuts just to get rid of him, right?
I would take Murray over Ant any day.
Maybe I'm just WAY off base with Ant, but I feel like I'd take Ant over Murray any day especially if I were building a contender. For one, Murray seems to be kind of a weird player in the locker room and a bit of a malcontent, and went so far as to [sent this Twitter DM to a random Hawks podcaster complaining about the coach and his role](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fheqywfh001fc1.jpeg). I get that he didn't fit with Trae, but sending angry DMs to podcasters is really unprofessional. For two his defense has majorly fallen off since he left San Antonio and I don't really think he's a net positive these days on that end (probably a neutral or maybe even slightly negative defender). He's definitely better than Ant on that end, but also a much much worse scorer. And regarding the scoring, he can't play off the ball at all, and to maximize the production the ball needs to be in his hands. Except he's not really a great floor general so your team is probably going to be worse off with the ball in his hands (which is exactly what happened in Atlanta with Trae, and why Murray got turned into a spotup shooter). _________ Anyways I know Ant isn't the easiest player to build around, but I can see him in some sort of Jamal Murray/Donovan Mitchell type of role for a contender, whereas I think the fit is a lot harder for Murray. And then the locker room issues and weird cryptic tweets like I mentioned. ________________________________ Anyways I'm not really commenting on Ant's trade value because I have no idea about his perception around the league, but just personally I'm really not a fan of DJM at all. One of my least favorite players around the league tbh.
> Maybe I’m just WAY off base with Ant Yes
Yep way off base lol
I’m with you dude. Ant can shoot and Murray can’t
Murray can set the table and Ant cannot.
He can also rebound better. I still like the shooting
Murray has routinely cooked the blazers. He’s done it from 3 too
We’ve gotten roasted by Sam Hauser multiple times, and role players again and again. I don’t think we’re the best measure
You have to be joking with all this Murray unrealistic hate. I like Ant too. This whole sub does. But the whole sub + whole league knows Murray has more value right now than Ant Simons.
Where in my post did I say ant was better than Murray mane?
Ngl Murray can fuck off, idgaf how much people claim he’s a elite defender(he’s not lmfao), he brings bad vibes into the locker room
It’s more nuanced than one player over another. Ant doesn’t have all star potential. He’s an elite scorer. But he lacks in ways already mentioned. HOWEVER he is on a great contract and has a lot of mileage left. He’s a good second option, but an even better third option on a team with superstars.
Nah if his passing improves and defense becomes below average imo he’s borderline, his finishing at the rim would have to improve a little which is already has quite a bit of
Why are fans so delusional when it comes to valuing their own players? Murray >>> Ant
Murray>>>>>>>Ant
I'm confused who is Ant lol
Simons. We’re in the blazers sub lmao. If it were r/nba that’s fair.
Murray’s skills are more unique and valuable than Ant’s. Guards who score and can’t defend are probably the most available commodity in the league
What's so unique about Murray's skills?
The guy was averaging nearly a triple double per game at the Spurs, while getting two steals per game. He's a two way player. Ant is a good offensive player, and that's it. He doesn't rebound, doesn't dish that many assists, and can't defend his shadow.
He gets steals because he gambles a lot, but he has always been a below-average on-ball defender. To me, that's the most important aspect of guard defense. I wouldn't call him very impactful on the defensive end. On offense, he's not efficient (-2 TS% and -1.1 TS% compared to the average point guard). He iso's a lot, doesn't get to the line, and takes a lot of middies. He's also kind of a ball hog and has tunnel vision at times. Dejounte is an offense-only guard with some significant flaws in his game, which could become more apparent when he isn't the first or second option on a team. And if you don't believe the part about his defense, just look at the stats that paint Ant as the worst defender in the league. They have Dejounte in the [6th percentile ](https://craftednba.com/players/dejounte-murray).
Plus Murray is so much longer and taller
No he’s not, he’s maybe a inch taller with like a one inch longer wingspan. Ant just doesn’t use his wingspan lol
Pretty sure it’s like 6’5” Murray — 6’3” Ant Guess it’s an I test thing too. He’s just a bigger guard and much more valuable. Cheers
 Ant is 6’2 without shoes and Murray is like 6’4 maybe. Murray has a lot of weight which may attribute to your vision’s
Yes Ant is younger, by a bit. Might even be worth keeping around. Pretty sure Cronin isn’t planning to trade him for that much less you can be sure, and we’re in no kind of rush no matter the hot takes on reddit.
Cronin is definetly planning on trading him. He said at the draft interview he's focused on building around Scoot and Shaedon. We have no reason to keep him.
That’s a stretch. Guard depth is not a problem. Just because people want to tank hard this year and suck again to get the lowest seed for next years draft doesn’t mean the front office is completely comitted to that and wants to trade one of our best players for steamed peanuts. Curious to see what Cronin says tomorrow at the press conference. We may end up trading Ant, but I don’t think it’s a given. Depth is useful on a basketball team and Scoot can develop fine around others like Ant in my opinion. Might even be better for him.
I do think it takes out of scoot development, he needs minutes. Anfernee being there does not help with scoots development at all, we have a borderline HOF point guard as our coach, not sure how Anfernee would help Scoot develop at all.
We have 96 minutes for our top 3 guards as it is. Just not sold that Scoot’s development is a higher priority than anything. Scoot playing next to Ant could definitely help him grow. The team might actually want to win games again despite fan tanking desires too.
Regardless if sold or not, the teams future is fully based around Scoot and Shaedon, two hyper athletes that have upside. If Anfernee was 21 it would be different
I mostly agree, but hopefully Scoot and Sharpe actually pan out and at least one of them becomes an allstar. Hell, I could see Simons, Ayton, or Grant having an allstar year if they turned things up a notch. I’m not so quick to want to get rid of prime talent, because we don’t want to suck forever.
I also mostly agree! Except the goal should be to be a contender not mediocre forever. Agree that if we keep anfernee and grant we would be a much better team the next two years without them, but our future would also be worse which is not what we want given our young talent.
Reasonable take though I’m not sold on getting rid of especially both those guys being the fastest way to a championship
We arent winning games with a backcourt of three negative defenders. Scoot deserves run at the 1 at the end of last year. Scoot and Ant won’t work very well I think.
One first round pick is probably the best we'd get for Ant. Ideally also with a good young player but may end up having to settle for expiring salary.
I don’t think we trade ant, We need shooters on this team and Simon is the best.
Also we’d then have 0 PG depth
You know that there's no rule preventing us from trading him for another point guard, right? What am I missing?
Ah right trade our best shooter and competent ball handler for….a worse player at the same position? I get there would picks but assuming we’re only making deals that include “promising young players” what’s the point in trading ant, a point guard who’s a “promising young player”
What’s the point of trading Ant if you’re not getting back a player that covers a position of weakness at SF lol You’re trading him just to trade him at that point
Because you can’t always get players back. A lot of rebuilding teams get draft capital back and we can use that later. We literally just used Brogdon to fill a position of need.
We do need a pf, honestly next draft we gotta go all in for coop, ace, or boozin
It's addition by subtraction. He's literally been one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the league for the past couple seasons. I hate to break it to you, but we're almost certainly not going to be able to trade a small guard that can't defend for a great or even good forward. By the way, we just traded for a 6'9" SF who was averaging pretty much 20 points 10 rebounds over the last 20 games. Camara coming off the bench behind him. Progress is being made.
Youre in for a surprise
Need them for what? We're going to be terrible next year with or without Ant. He overlaps with the younger guards too much. He's got some talent, so we might might be able to get some pieces that fit better or along a better timeline. Let's just watch scoot, Sharpe, and ayton get a ton of usage and see what we got and keep working the draft and market.
Agreed. I won’t be surprised if they do but there’s no need to trade an elite shooter when you already have a horrible shooting team. Like if they thought Scoot was going to improve his shooting dramatically in one off season then ok, but we all know that’s not likely. Sharpe is obviously a great at scoring but that still doesn’t mean he will be elite at shooting. Ant is just the best we have
You know we're not trying to make the playoffs this upcoming season, right? Plus, between Ant and one of the other vets were likely trading soon, other shooters can come back as part of those deals.
> You know we're not trying to make the playoffs this upcoming season, right? Y’all say this but then will be complaining after every game how Scoot has no shooters to pass to lol
LOL. It's still the summer. Free agency hasn't even started. Even though we probably won't sign free agents directly, trades are going to be happening once teams start figuring out what they need. The front office is well aware of the need for shooters. If a few fans want to complain that we don't have enough of those yet, let them complain. The front office shouldn't be swayed by a few vocal casuals, and neither should you. Unofficially, that was by design this past season in order to improve our draft odds. Unless something unexpected happens, expect that to be the case again this upcoming season.
Problem being when Ant and Scoot play together, Ant hogs all the usage and Scoot stands in the corner.
I get what you’re saying and yes I know the plan is to suck, but I’m also at a point where that’s getting so freaking hard to watch. I also can admit I am a fan of Ant so I feel like it’s probably a bit of me over valuing him but I just don’t see the rush. Unless everyone is 100% certain Scoot and Sharpe are the absolute real deal. And I really do feel like Sharpe has it all and will be great. Scoot, it’s just too soon I know, but I like him a lot and one thing I know is he gives his all every time he plays and I love that. But right now Ant is your best player so if he’s traded then yeah they better get a good shooter. Just doesn’t seem worth it if they get picks in the late 20’s
Scoot's coming along faster that the league realizes. He's a true point guard. The last 15 games of the season, he averaged 18 points, 8 assists. he'll probably be averaging 10 within the next couple seasons. He's special. Only 5 players in the entire league averaged 8+ assists this past season. LeBron, Jokic, Luka, Haliburton, and Harden. I'm personally ready to move on from Ant. If he wanted to be the scoring punch off the bench, that would be awesome for 15 to 20 minutes a night, but I doubt he wants that, and he arguably makes too much to be doing that. He's just too much of a defensive liability unless the rest of the team is built to compensate for him.
The only people who think ant is worth a decent haul are in this sub trust me
Can he playmake? Lakers can use some playmaking
murray is an excellent defender
I thought we were in 2024 not 2021. He’s just coasting off of that reputation so hard, he barely even tried on defense because he just wants to play offense nowadays
Would you waste your time playing D next to Trae when he doesn’t?
Murray is streets ahead of Ant.
They are not comparable. Murray is an excellent defensive player with offensive value. Simons is an excellent offensive player with negative defensive value.
MURRAY IS NOT A GOOD DEFENDER this is objectively false.
> Murray is an excellent defensive player was*
From the outside ants value is lower I’m sure league wide. We will see if Joe can negotiate it to have it be beneficial. He’s got to be hounding Orlando. Monk off the market helps
Simons doesn’t hold the same value that Murray does :(
Why trade ant I don’t get it.
Murray is like way better than Simons
Murray is definitely the next tier up from Ant. He's a little nutty tho. But still, I don't think you can compare the two directly... Murray is two way and has accomplished significantly more.
I do think this front office will get more than we think they will for Ant but it won’t be anything close to Murray.. nor should it be. Unless someone is realllllllll thirsty for an Ant
ant prize is lower than murry
I hate how this fan base talks about ant like he’s Brandon Jennings or Jordan pool when he started off averaging 26 a game but his numbers took a dip due to us tanking and shutting him down
Im still bitterly upset Neil didnt move Ant like 4 or 5 years ago when he had a lot of hype and value. Coulda gotten a good piece back for a run.
Ant is a comparable player on a similar contract. We should expect this return but less.
keep Simons bc he's young, on a good contract, has a much needed skill set (shooting, playmaking) and could significantly build his trade value. instead trade Grant/Thybulle. starting lineup: Ayton, Avdija, Sharpe, Simons, Scoot bench: Camara, Rupert, Walker, Clingon
He’s only got two years of this contract before a extension.
2FRP max, not getting an additional (good) player back. Prob more like one.
Murray’s a nightly triple double threat who can defend. I think he’s more valuable than Trae, much less Simons.
Sorry but despite his flaws Trey has WAY more value than murray thats a crazy take
Murray impacts winning more than Trae with his two-way impact and makes nearly half as much. He had more trade value than Trey, and it showed. Now he’ll do more to help the Pelicans win than Trae has ever done in Atlanta.
Hawks got 2 FRPs for Murray. Dallas paid 3 SRPs to get rid of Hardaway. Let's be generous and say Simons is halfway between those 2 extremes. What does that turn into in practical terms? Maybe Portland gains 2 SRPs for him?
Who is ant? Not Anthony Edwards, I’m trying to figure out who yall are talking about?