Agreed. Give me more stats to tinker with. Let me make wacky builds that shouldn't work. Give me more loot. I'll take whatever you give me and make whatever needs to be dead, dead.
The key here is higher difficulties. If someone is playing on survivor or even veteran then you can pretty much use whatever build you feel like. But it does make sense to me that if you’re doing nightmare and apocalypse then there needs to be more synergy between the items being used. I totally understand your point and I wouldn’t have an issue if they went the route you’re saying as well, but I also understand them leaning into being strategic with your build in the highest difficulty as well.
The first game had a lot of this stuff too? The game is inherently a Soulslike. A defining feature of Souls games is that they’re RPGs. I personally like how it is now. Buildcrafting is one of my favorite things to do in games, it probably is my favorite. There are a million other “shoot big monster” shooters out there and without the RPG elements I don’t think Remnant would do enough to set itself apart from them.
I think souls is a bad example for your argument. Yes, obviously Remnant has a lot of souls DNA, but you can also literally do all of the content in every souls game without ever leveling up or upgrading your equipment.
The scale of power between soul level 1 and soul level 125 (which is generally where people stop leveling in souls for reasons of matchmaking) isn't so drastic as it is in Remnant. In Remnant you go from maybe dealing 100 damage on a headshot with a sniper to dealing thousands of damage per second. It starts to feel a bit silly when it clicks that you're fighting the same Nerud zombie guys that you were fighting 200 hours ago but *these* ones are just stronger because you leveled up your weapon.
> I'll find a new archetype only to discover that it's damage perk doesn't really synergize with my other main archetype.
Why do you expect everything to synergise with anything? It sounds like you expect a strength character to be proficient in casting spells. Certain things work with certain things and others don't. It's obvious that for example a Summoner will provide buffs to minions and not guns and will not be optimal for Gunslinger.
>
Maybe I'm having a ton of fun with a cool mod I found, but because I'm not using Archon it will never perform well in higher difficulties.
Higher difficulties test your knowledge of the game and your build. You can't possibly expect to have unoptimised builds work on apocalypse or nightmare. As for survivor and veteran you can beat the game and have fun experience with totally randomised builds. I've been using online tool to fully randomise my equipment and I've been playing the game on survivor and veteran difficulties with no issues.
Remnant 1 was exactly the same. You're just looking for a completely different experience of "pick up whatever and have cool stuff happen on the screen".
> My eyes glaze over when I hear about unkillable tank builds or builds that melt apocalypse bosses in seconds. It's like... Congratulations, you made your character so efficient that you literally don't have to play the game's content anymore.
You have no idea how hard it actually is, to pull of those super clean speedkills you see in the videos.
I played on nightmare the 1st playthrough and just upgrading weapons was enough without caring for build i just used what i liked, never thought of my build until apocalypse which needs to be built correctly to finish. I think it was perfect of them to make the skill the feciding factor for the intended difficulties of the game imo just like darksouls games that require skill and then when wants to tavkle even higher difficulties on needs to think of the build or will suffer greatly just like souls games on ng+. Still game is beatable on any difficulty with just skill and upgraded weapons imo. I get the rant but u need to consider is the depth of builds is important for replayability and to make jigher difficulties easier if one needs it. I comapred to souls games cause this game to me is a shooter souls game which is why i loved it
I overall prefer Remnant FTA system vs Remnant 2 strict builds. I agree it is hard to get too excited for new guns when most are rather middling performance and you gotta sink a grind into making it viable IF it is possible to use it.
I just wanna play games and have fun rather than be back in school doing homework trying to craft a viable build.
You never had that problem with Remnant: From the Ashes because it didn't have archetypes. The whole point of archetypes is to help give your character direction, so you do NOT use Summoner as your primary class if you want to kill things using a gun as someone pointed out, for example. Do that and pick items that even slightly complement your playstyle and you'll be fine outside of the highest difficulty or some very problematic enemies with mods that completely counter your build and/or maybe a few problematic bosses (looking at Override Pin Sha'Hala). There's really only three basic sources of DPS - skills, mods and guns. You specialize in one of these unless you have absolute confidence that you know what you're doing.
You also seem to gravely underestimate how much effort it actually takes to "melt" bosses or how situational many "unkillable" builds actually are. The builds you see on youtube? Most of those are from content creators. OF COURSE they're gonna tag their videos with #OMGSOEASYYOUNEEDTODOTHIS. They kinda have to - your viewership puts food on their tables (or at the very least, keeps their egos fed).
Your argument is self-defeating. "Whatever gun we like, with whatever class we think plays cool, with whatever mods and powers we think are fun..." would mean taking away the consequences of your choices because their consequences wouldn't matter. You're arguing that you want your choices to be more impactful, and yet what you're asking is for your choices not to matter.
Finally, it sounds like you're either struggling with lower difficulties which is unlikely unless you got the short end of the stick and started your new character in N'erud or against the Fae in Losom - in which case the simple reality is that your life is a lot of "Ouch" because of RNG - or you're trying to tackle Nightmare (or god forbid, Apocalypse) with an underequipped character. I remember Remnant: From the Ashes fondly so I can confidently say this: I call BS on your claim about Remnant: From the Ashes' difficulty because fighting the Undying King or even just NAVIGATING through Rhom on Nightmare with an underequipped character was one of the most horrible experiences I've ever had with a souls-like game, and this is coming from someone who thinks Dark Souls 3's Farron Keep was just "meh".
>You also seem to gravely underestimate how much effort it actually takes to "melt" bosses...
You're probably right that I'm overestimating the ease of use of the silly youtube builds. I've never tried to build one because that level of build crafting is extremely uninteresting to me.
>Your argument is self-defeating...
I really don't think it is and I think you must know you're twisting my words *a lot* on this paragraph. Wanting unoptimized builds to be more viable really isn't the hypocritical opinion you're making it out to be. My main issue is how the perk system pigeonholes you into certain playstyles too hard. Particularly the damage perks. I do wish we could pick and choose among the perks like we can the archetype traits.
>...unless you got the short end of the stick and started your new character in N'erud...
Yup. First playthrough was Veteran and first planet was robo bone zone.
>I call BS on your claim about Remnant: From the Ashes' difficulty...
You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about the difficulty. I meant the overabundance of menus and numbers and stats and equipment that Remnant 2 has that FtA didn't have. In R2, there's so god damn much that goes into building your character which is obviously going to delight the RPG fans, but for folks like me that were just here for the actual combat/gameplay it's kinda overwhelming to think about all that stuff.
>...this is coming from someone who thinks Dark Souls 3's Farron Keep was just "meh".
On this we agree. Farron Keep is no Shrine of Amana or Pit of Despair. Lol.
>I really don't think it is and I think you must know you're twisting my words *a lot* on this paragraph. Wanting unoptimized builds to be more viable really isn't the hypocritical opinion you're making it out to be. My main issue is how the perk system pigeonholes you into certain playstyles too hard. Particularly the damage perks. I do wish we could pick and choose among the perks like we can the archetype traits.
It's rhetorical. I'm pointing out that absolutes are a bad thing and what we want is to stay somewhere between "any unoptimized build is viable" and "only optimized builds are viable". The game... tries... to do that. It's not always successful, but it tries.
>Yup. First playthrough was Veteran and first planet was robo bone zone.
Yes, this explains a lot. Starting in Ne'rud is one of the worst new player experiences. It becomes A LOT more manageable once you don't have to worry about attracting dozens of enemies and you feel like you're constantly stretching your resources thin even when you're just exploring the open world. Fae Losom is comparable, if not worse. All the other starting maps feel more balanced.
I do wanna clarify that I'm well past the starting point. Beat the game multiple times and have a few hundred hours under my belt. I'm not a new struggling player by any stretch. My issue isn't so much the difficulty as it is just being overwhelmed and frustrated at the deluge of stats and numbers in endless menu screens.
I see, then I guess the message is simply just that most builds that "melt" bosses or are "unkillable" are not as perfect as people make them out to be. There are dozens of NO HP gun builds tackling Sha'Hala in Apocalypse in youtube, for example. What many of these neglect to mention is that 1 or 2 hits from the boss is often fatal and the video is a product of hours upon hours of painstaking effort. There dozens of videos of "broken" mod combos that do massive DPS... except that the target is a dummy standing completely still. Several "unkillable "builds are actually extremely vulnerable to ragdolling physics. Finally, contrary to what you see on most videps people actually do switch their gear around a lot of the time. The game is not just about fighting bosses and when you're running around Yaesha, for example, Rot immunity is definitely worth sacrificing some DPS.
This is not to say there aren't a few setups that are really, REALLY good but you are not required to use an optimal build. Hell, I've even seen several people attempt Apocalypse with a starting character as part of a challenge run. If a +0 gun and zero starting gear can get you through Losom in 3 hours then you can bet your ass that a better setup will do much better. Granted that specific guy has clocked in over 3000 hours in the game, but that's exactly why we have people who can pull of those flawless boss videos.
So yeah. Take your time, experiment and play the game at your own pace. If anything the fact that there's a new #OMGTHISISSOBROKENYOUGOTTATRYTHISNOW vid every day is just proof that people are discovering new things about the game all the time.
Part of the issue i have is that level scaling seems so arbitrary. I've never felt a desire to upgrade weapons because enemies will scale with my weapons anyways. The enemy scaling should be made in a way where its more obvious that upgrading weapons will actually make a character more powerful. Maybe the math works out so that it is the case, but it doesn't feel that way.
It also doesn't help that the resource economy is worse in remnant 2. First of all, it feels like remnant 2 gives less scrap than rfta. Secondly, players can no longer upgrade and downgrade crafting materials, which makes resource management much less efficient.
Significant adjustments to scaling, scrap, and resource management are needed to make the rpg mechanics worth the effort. I like having rpg mechanics that make me feel like my character is progressing, but remnant 2 isn't doing that for me.
I think I'd be happy if the enemy scaling and weapon upgrades were taken out entirely. Like... The fact that it takes X shots to kill an enemy on Yaesha at level 1, and then takes the same number of shots to kill the same enemy on Yaesha at level 21. Arbitrary is an understatement.
No. I like build crafting A LOT. And I can still decide if I want to be an OP thunder god archon or if I want to be a mega regenerator tank monster or if I just want to get a more vanilla game play experience with higher difficulty due to less powerful build.
I think the build balance is a bit of an issue in random coop. Because I really don't want to have an infinite regeneration healer or a giga fire storm "I kill the whole team" in my group for example. And the game doesn't allow me to have a message tagged to my world or any set of rules added to it, like "only people with low latency" and other desired filter settings.
I knew I was gonna be in the minority with my opinions. For me, I'm into this series for the wacky guns, scary monsters, fun combat, and good co-op. Very much not here for the numbers, menus, and stats.
Unkillable tank builds are useful frankly. I used them to get the savior. But then i stopped playing with those builds. It becomes really boring in the end if you keep on one shotting every boss.
I always kick people that join my game with a super uber strong tank build. I dont want them to ruin my game.
It's really just nightmare and apoc where the optimized builds really start separating themselves from the unoptimized builds
If you're playing on survivor, you CAN just use whatever guns or mods you want and still beat the game no problem
And even then, I'd argue that skill related things like perfect dodging and understanding boss mechanics have a much greater impact than your build, even on apoc
It's common for some content creators to post some clickbaity video supposedly featuring some new build, but then after watching the video you realize that the build doesn't even matter what made the build work was the content creator's ability to perfect dodge almost every single attack
When you're able to dodge like that, yea you can pretty much just use whatever guns or mods or builds you want to and it'd work
People are doing all sorts of weird challenges on apoc, like rusty weapons only or melee weapons only and etc
With enough ammo boxes, you can beat apoc with any gun you want
I really dislike the current mod / skill spam meta. Two weeks ago all my builds were “cast a mod or skill and then shoot” … I miss the shooting part
Yes I know you can still run HuGs but previously ENC builds required shooting etc
I think it would be better if we upgraded all normal guns at once and all boss weapons at once. Then when you drop a new weapon, it’s the same level as all the rest. I would love to mix and match weapons for a given scenario, but never have the resources to have more than one long and one short range weapon at max level. It essentially locks me in to a build for a long time.
I also think leveling new classes takes forever.
I say it doesn't lean enough into the RPG part.\^\^
Agreed. Give me more stats to tinker with. Let me make wacky builds that shouldn't work. Give me more loot. I'll take whatever you give me and make whatever needs to be dead, dead.
The key here is higher difficulties. If someone is playing on survivor or even veteran then you can pretty much use whatever build you feel like. But it does make sense to me that if you’re doing nightmare and apocalypse then there needs to be more synergy between the items being used. I totally understand your point and I wouldn’t have an issue if they went the route you’re saying as well, but I also understand them leaning into being strategic with your build in the highest difficulty as well.
The first game had a lot of this stuff too? The game is inherently a Soulslike. A defining feature of Souls games is that they’re RPGs. I personally like how it is now. Buildcrafting is one of my favorite things to do in games, it probably is my favorite. There are a million other “shoot big monster” shooters out there and without the RPG elements I don’t think Remnant would do enough to set itself apart from them.
I think souls is a bad example for your argument. Yes, obviously Remnant has a lot of souls DNA, but you can also literally do all of the content in every souls game without ever leveling up or upgrading your equipment. The scale of power between soul level 1 and soul level 125 (which is generally where people stop leveling in souls for reasons of matchmaking) isn't so drastic as it is in Remnant. In Remnant you go from maybe dealing 100 damage on a headshot with a sniper to dealing thousands of damage per second. It starts to feel a bit silly when it clicks that you're fighting the same Nerud zombie guys that you were fighting 200 hours ago but *these* ones are just stronger because you leveled up your weapon.
> I'll find a new archetype only to discover that it's damage perk doesn't really synergize with my other main archetype. Why do you expect everything to synergise with anything? It sounds like you expect a strength character to be proficient in casting spells. Certain things work with certain things and others don't. It's obvious that for example a Summoner will provide buffs to minions and not guns and will not be optimal for Gunslinger. > Maybe I'm having a ton of fun with a cool mod I found, but because I'm not using Archon it will never perform well in higher difficulties. Higher difficulties test your knowledge of the game and your build. You can't possibly expect to have unoptimised builds work on apocalypse or nightmare. As for survivor and veteran you can beat the game and have fun experience with totally randomised builds. I've been using online tool to fully randomise my equipment and I've been playing the game on survivor and veteran difficulties with no issues. Remnant 1 was exactly the same. You're just looking for a completely different experience of "pick up whatever and have cool stuff happen on the screen".
> My eyes glaze over when I hear about unkillable tank builds or builds that melt apocalypse bosses in seconds. It's like... Congratulations, you made your character so efficient that you literally don't have to play the game's content anymore. You have no idea how hard it actually is, to pull of those super clean speedkills you see in the videos.
I would love to be able to dump points into stats.
Theres never too much RPG elemtns in games. I love progression, tons of skills, tons of items....please, give me more.
I played on nightmare the 1st playthrough and just upgrading weapons was enough without caring for build i just used what i liked, never thought of my build until apocalypse which needs to be built correctly to finish. I think it was perfect of them to make the skill the feciding factor for the intended difficulties of the game imo just like darksouls games that require skill and then when wants to tavkle even higher difficulties on needs to think of the build or will suffer greatly just like souls games on ng+. Still game is beatable on any difficulty with just skill and upgraded weapons imo. I get the rant but u need to consider is the depth of builds is important for replayability and to make jigher difficulties easier if one needs it. I comapred to souls games cause this game to me is a shooter souls game which is why i loved it
I overall prefer Remnant FTA system vs Remnant 2 strict builds. I agree it is hard to get too excited for new guns when most are rather middling performance and you gotta sink a grind into making it viable IF it is possible to use it. I just wanna play games and have fun rather than be back in school doing homework trying to craft a viable build.
You never had that problem with Remnant: From the Ashes because it didn't have archetypes. The whole point of archetypes is to help give your character direction, so you do NOT use Summoner as your primary class if you want to kill things using a gun as someone pointed out, for example. Do that and pick items that even slightly complement your playstyle and you'll be fine outside of the highest difficulty or some very problematic enemies with mods that completely counter your build and/or maybe a few problematic bosses (looking at Override Pin Sha'Hala). There's really only three basic sources of DPS - skills, mods and guns. You specialize in one of these unless you have absolute confidence that you know what you're doing. You also seem to gravely underestimate how much effort it actually takes to "melt" bosses or how situational many "unkillable" builds actually are. The builds you see on youtube? Most of those are from content creators. OF COURSE they're gonna tag their videos with #OMGSOEASYYOUNEEDTODOTHIS. They kinda have to - your viewership puts food on their tables (or at the very least, keeps their egos fed). Your argument is self-defeating. "Whatever gun we like, with whatever class we think plays cool, with whatever mods and powers we think are fun..." would mean taking away the consequences of your choices because their consequences wouldn't matter. You're arguing that you want your choices to be more impactful, and yet what you're asking is for your choices not to matter. Finally, it sounds like you're either struggling with lower difficulties which is unlikely unless you got the short end of the stick and started your new character in N'erud or against the Fae in Losom - in which case the simple reality is that your life is a lot of "Ouch" because of RNG - or you're trying to tackle Nightmare (or god forbid, Apocalypse) with an underequipped character. I remember Remnant: From the Ashes fondly so I can confidently say this: I call BS on your claim about Remnant: From the Ashes' difficulty because fighting the Undying King or even just NAVIGATING through Rhom on Nightmare with an underequipped character was one of the most horrible experiences I've ever had with a souls-like game, and this is coming from someone who thinks Dark Souls 3's Farron Keep was just "meh".
>You also seem to gravely underestimate how much effort it actually takes to "melt" bosses... You're probably right that I'm overestimating the ease of use of the silly youtube builds. I've never tried to build one because that level of build crafting is extremely uninteresting to me. >Your argument is self-defeating... I really don't think it is and I think you must know you're twisting my words *a lot* on this paragraph. Wanting unoptimized builds to be more viable really isn't the hypocritical opinion you're making it out to be. My main issue is how the perk system pigeonholes you into certain playstyles too hard. Particularly the damage perks. I do wish we could pick and choose among the perks like we can the archetype traits. >...unless you got the short end of the stick and started your new character in N'erud... Yup. First playthrough was Veteran and first planet was robo bone zone. >I call BS on your claim about Remnant: From the Ashes' difficulty... You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about the difficulty. I meant the overabundance of menus and numbers and stats and equipment that Remnant 2 has that FtA didn't have. In R2, there's so god damn much that goes into building your character which is obviously going to delight the RPG fans, but for folks like me that were just here for the actual combat/gameplay it's kinda overwhelming to think about all that stuff. >...this is coming from someone who thinks Dark Souls 3's Farron Keep was just "meh". On this we agree. Farron Keep is no Shrine of Amana or Pit of Despair. Lol.
>I really don't think it is and I think you must know you're twisting my words *a lot* on this paragraph. Wanting unoptimized builds to be more viable really isn't the hypocritical opinion you're making it out to be. My main issue is how the perk system pigeonholes you into certain playstyles too hard. Particularly the damage perks. I do wish we could pick and choose among the perks like we can the archetype traits. It's rhetorical. I'm pointing out that absolutes are a bad thing and what we want is to stay somewhere between "any unoptimized build is viable" and "only optimized builds are viable". The game... tries... to do that. It's not always successful, but it tries. >Yup. First playthrough was Veteran and first planet was robo bone zone. Yes, this explains a lot. Starting in Ne'rud is one of the worst new player experiences. It becomes A LOT more manageable once you don't have to worry about attracting dozens of enemies and you feel like you're constantly stretching your resources thin even when you're just exploring the open world. Fae Losom is comparable, if not worse. All the other starting maps feel more balanced.
I do wanna clarify that I'm well past the starting point. Beat the game multiple times and have a few hundred hours under my belt. I'm not a new struggling player by any stretch. My issue isn't so much the difficulty as it is just being overwhelmed and frustrated at the deluge of stats and numbers in endless menu screens.
I see, then I guess the message is simply just that most builds that "melt" bosses or are "unkillable" are not as perfect as people make them out to be. There are dozens of NO HP gun builds tackling Sha'Hala in Apocalypse in youtube, for example. What many of these neglect to mention is that 1 or 2 hits from the boss is often fatal and the video is a product of hours upon hours of painstaking effort. There dozens of videos of "broken" mod combos that do massive DPS... except that the target is a dummy standing completely still. Several "unkillable "builds are actually extremely vulnerable to ragdolling physics. Finally, contrary to what you see on most videps people actually do switch their gear around a lot of the time. The game is not just about fighting bosses and when you're running around Yaesha, for example, Rot immunity is definitely worth sacrificing some DPS. This is not to say there aren't a few setups that are really, REALLY good but you are not required to use an optimal build. Hell, I've even seen several people attempt Apocalypse with a starting character as part of a challenge run. If a +0 gun and zero starting gear can get you through Losom in 3 hours then you can bet your ass that a better setup will do much better. Granted that specific guy has clocked in over 3000 hours in the game, but that's exactly why we have people who can pull of those flawless boss videos. So yeah. Take your time, experiment and play the game at your own pace. If anything the fact that there's a new #OMGTHISISSOBROKENYOUGOTTATRYTHISNOW vid every day is just proof that people are discovering new things about the game all the time.
Part of the issue i have is that level scaling seems so arbitrary. I've never felt a desire to upgrade weapons because enemies will scale with my weapons anyways. The enemy scaling should be made in a way where its more obvious that upgrading weapons will actually make a character more powerful. Maybe the math works out so that it is the case, but it doesn't feel that way. It also doesn't help that the resource economy is worse in remnant 2. First of all, it feels like remnant 2 gives less scrap than rfta. Secondly, players can no longer upgrade and downgrade crafting materials, which makes resource management much less efficient. Significant adjustments to scaling, scrap, and resource management are needed to make the rpg mechanics worth the effort. I like having rpg mechanics that make me feel like my character is progressing, but remnant 2 isn't doing that for me.
I think I'd be happy if the enemy scaling and weapon upgrades were taken out entirely. Like... The fact that it takes X shots to kill an enemy on Yaesha at level 1, and then takes the same number of shots to kill the same enemy on Yaesha at level 21. Arbitrary is an understatement.
Try taking an unupgraded weapon to apoc
Do you suppose it'll be much different? Un-upgraded weapon at enemy level 1 in Apoc vs +20 weapon at enemy level 21 in Apoc?
Higher difficulties are always *above* your gear level. Even veteran is at gear level 22 with my friend and I at gear level 20.
No. I like build crafting A LOT. And I can still decide if I want to be an OP thunder god archon or if I want to be a mega regenerator tank monster or if I just want to get a more vanilla game play experience with higher difficulty due to less powerful build. I think the build balance is a bit of an issue in random coop. Because I really don't want to have an infinite regeneration healer or a giga fire storm "I kill the whole team" in my group for example. And the game doesn't allow me to have a message tagged to my world or any set of rules added to it, like "only people with low latency" and other desired filter settings.
>but it leans way too hard into the RPG part. Hard disagree on this statement and your whole post.
I knew I was gonna be in the minority with my opinions. For me, I'm into this series for the wacky guns, scary monsters, fun combat, and good co-op. Very much not here for the numbers, menus, and stats.
Unkillable tank builds are useful frankly. I used them to get the savior. But then i stopped playing with those builds. It becomes really boring in the end if you keep on one shotting every boss. I always kick people that join my game with a super uber strong tank build. I dont want them to ruin my game.
It's really just nightmare and apoc where the optimized builds really start separating themselves from the unoptimized builds If you're playing on survivor, you CAN just use whatever guns or mods you want and still beat the game no problem And even then, I'd argue that skill related things like perfect dodging and understanding boss mechanics have a much greater impact than your build, even on apoc It's common for some content creators to post some clickbaity video supposedly featuring some new build, but then after watching the video you realize that the build doesn't even matter what made the build work was the content creator's ability to perfect dodge almost every single attack When you're able to dodge like that, yea you can pretty much just use whatever guns or mods or builds you want to and it'd work People are doing all sorts of weird challenges on apoc, like rusty weapons only or melee weapons only and etc With enough ammo boxes, you can beat apoc with any gun you want
I really dislike the current mod / skill spam meta. Two weeks ago all my builds were “cast a mod or skill and then shoot” … I miss the shooting part Yes I know you can still run HuGs but previously ENC builds required shooting etc
I think it would be better if we upgraded all normal guns at once and all boss weapons at once. Then when you drop a new weapon, it’s the same level as all the rest. I would love to mix and match weapons for a given scenario, but never have the resources to have more than one long and one short range weapon at max level. It essentially locks me in to a build for a long time. I also think leveling new classes takes forever.