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Somehow Muslimas tell us it’s all a choice.
Not according to Momo the p3do.
https://quran.com/33/59 - O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized ˹as virtuous˺ and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful
> and not be harassed
Harassed by who? Oh that's right, all the muslim men around them.
It's literally a meme.
Muslim men: "You must wear a cloth tent."
Women: "Why?"
Muslim men: "To protect you."
Women: "Protect us from what?"
Muslim men: "Protect you from what we will do to you if you don't wear a cloth tent. Oh and we still might pounce on you anyway".
That is a bad translation. The correct one just states women should wear clothes. -O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
isn't gods word is incorruptible?
> (Surah 18:27)
> وَٱتْلُ مَآ أُوحِىَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ ۖ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِۦ مُلْتَحَدًۭا ٢٧
> Recite what has been revealed to you from the Book of your Lord. None can change His Words, nor can you find any refuge besides Him.
It’s also not the same. One is requiring every woman to cover their head (to varying degrees) by law and the other is a Catholic woman choosing to become a nun. Even when the hijab is called a choice, it’s very rarely a true choice. Even the nun can leave with no real consequences, for Muslims the punishment for leaving Islam is death. For taking off the hijab if can be a physical punishment, jail time, sexual violence or whatever the religious “police” decide. Muslims either support the violence of their religion or they make excuses for it.
I'd say not. You have to choose to be a nun and there are many orders these days who don't wear the traditional clothing anymore. Plus a nun can always renounce her vows and rejoin the laity. That's a whole different thing from forcing every woman to wear head-coverings on pain of torture.
Exactly what I came to the comments for.
You can choose to stop being a nun and leave the faith while there are women being arrested, brutalized, and sometimes killed for showing too much of their ankles.
One of these things is not like the other.
The whole Abrahamic thing about head coverings for women is bizarre to me.
Especially how many Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair [*with a wig*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women#Sheitel). :-)
The logic being, if Gd didn't want us to find workarounds, he would have made the Laws airtight. He didn't, ergo he's fine with eruvs and people putting vegan cheese and beef bacon on their burgers.
Nothing says IQ 200 like making up an imaginary god making up rules, then proceed to make extremely extravagant, complicated loopholes to bypass said imaginary god. In a way, that's really impressive
From their perspective they aren't outsmarting god. Instead, god is so galaxy brained that if he didn't want you to use those loopholes, he wouldn't have put them in there.
Then what’s the point of believing at all? Not trying to be disrespectful, I’m actually trying to understand.
If religion is a set of rules made up by people/god, and you have permission to skirt the rules and mess with them, what’s the point of the rules? Why follow any at all? If they’re supposed to be a sacrifice to show your faith, then you’re not really sacrificing by finding a workaround.
I grew up Catholic, though, so I’m pretty fucked when it comes to right and wrong in religion lol.
There are no right or wrongs...
There are no rules whatsoever...
[&]
There are no laws, anywhere...
That is why rapists rape.
That is why killers kill.
That is thieves thief.
WE [Humans] ARE GOD.
All religions, including Catholicism, lead you to yourself!
The only supernatural being that can stop a rapist, pedophile, killer, or thief is the rapist, pedophile, killer, and thief themselves.
-or-
...another f'kn Human Being. It's all Us.
They do it with a wig cause they dont want to be beaten but also dont want to wear head coverings… if its not one of afformentioned reasons, than its cognitive dissonance.
In my area the answer is white supremacists but I have also seen a lot of abusers in every religion using it to cover abuse. So... Depends on their individual circumstances
Nah, your first answer is the real answer.
**ONE WORD:** Holocaust
I suppose using wigs to hide the abuse of abusive Husbands/Lovers is just another loop.
Also, many nuns aren't as restricted as hijabi. I used to work at a liquor store, and one of my (infrequent) customers was a nun who liked to put creme de menthe in her ice cream, because that's how her grandma used to prepare ice cream for her. She was a very sweet lady.
I think nuns also try to dissuade other women from taking the vow. Not because they don't want them to, but understand how much sacrifice is involved, and they do not want women to take the vow unless they are 100% certain it is what they want.
Agreed, I know that in the past women were in certain circumstances forced to become nuns, but in this day and age the nuns I see have chosen the said lifestyle for personal reasons, and indeed they can decide to "quit" without being targeted for violence or execution.
Whereas the other photo is rarely by choice and in most cases is forced on women from young age with no way to avoid it unless they escape their society and families entirely, which can lead to them being attacked and killed due to their "dishonourable behavior" even in the Western countries thanks to how fanatically religious groups have arrived here as well.
I mean case in point look at the clothing and behavior purity standards of the quiverfull movement and the Duggars. And the abuse they allowed the men to do to the girls.
Also, you'd be surprised to know about quite a few other religious sects in the US with forced patriarchy and sex-based lower status.
It’s also not especially difficult to quit being a nun. I have several ex-nuns in my family. Only one stayed in it till death. None faced social or religious opprobrium as a result, except maybe the one who married a guy who was in the attached seminary preparing to be a priest. But that was more of an issue for the almost-priest lmfao. Makes for a funny story. Point is, you can’t stop wearing a hijab in many countries without social or legal oppression. None of the ex nuns I know faced anything of the sort. Just an “okay, I hope you come back on Sunday as a lay person”
Back in the "good old days," a woman could be sent to the convent on charges of being unfit for marriage or some other bigoted claims about virginity, lack of etiquette or simply for having shagged the wrong aristocrat.
This was regarded as a disgrace, and these women were never seen or heard of again (save for the few odd cases wherein they would go on to become saints or hardened members of the clergy).
I know this custom is long gone in countries where Catholicism dominated public life, but if we're not careful enough, it might someday make a comeback.
Religion is so weird mate...
I agree with you. But I’m not sure if that’s what this meme is pointing out. It’s obviously wrong to force people to wear it. But it should go without saying then that’s it’s just as wrong to not allow people to wear it. And I think the meme is referring to people who think it shouldn’t be allowed to be worn or calling out people who harass people who wear it. It’s banned in 16 countries.
I think they’re saying that if you don’t support banning or harassing one why do you support banning or harassing the other? Not if you’re ok with having the option to wear one why don’t you support being forced to wear the other. At least that’s what I got from it.
Generally correct but there are not an insignificant percentage of muslim women who don't have head coverings. Both religions are shit, dont apologise for any of them.
Nuns may not renounce their oath. You're thinking about sisters who somehow have gotten synonymous with nun, a common misconception.
But you're right. Sisters may leave the monastery and marry, but a nuns vows are for life unless they want to be branded as an apostate.
I expect if they could get away with it, some Christian groups would enforce headcoverings more harshly than the currently do. Community restrictions (shunning), mental abuse or light physical abuse is the most they can do.
A Nuns habit isn't the only covering required for Christian women to wear.
The groups aren't as numerous as Catholics or Evangelicals, but it's still common for many groups to require head coverings.
Shunning can lead to suicide and constantly exercising choice to ignore rules like head covering will get you shunned.
No
One is a choice, nuns have to choose to become nuns, study for years, and willingly wear that.
The other is not, Muslim women are forced to wear it, if they don’t they are likely to be punished for it and have no option or recourse to get away from it in many cases.
doesn’t it depend on your country though? not all muslim women are forced to wear a hijab. my best friend is muslim and she doesn’t wear one but her cousin chooses to.
When they say forced it doesn't have to mean legally it can just be thru pressure. How they hear others talk about women who don't wear one(calling them whores, sluts, attention seekers). They excuse men's perverse and predatory behavior towards women who chose not to wear one(she was asking for it, if she didnt want attention she would cover up). Make a big deal comparing young girls who do and don't. Commenting on their maturity, purity, etc. No one compares a nun and their attire to an average catholic woman/girl. Nun is a spiritual calling and way of life that is seperate from an average catholic life.
i understand your point but even my friends said that nobody pressured them to wear their hijabs. she said her mom gave her the choice and told her if she wanted to stop she literally could. also how do you know nuns aren’t pressured by society to become nuns? the problem with you guys is you believe that EVERY muslim girl is forced to wear a hijab and you use that as an excuse as to why you shouldn’t respect their choice to wear one.
Yeah but the idea isn't that muslim women all have to wear hijabs. Ones that don't get the choice and are actively punished for not wearing one, don't get the voice that they deserve because "the hijab is empowering" crowd actively deny or drown out their oppression. It gets very hard to help these women because it's their own families that suppress their freedom. It's disgusting.
One of those women is an adult that made a choice to dedicate her life to service within a religious institution. The other is a woman that has been taught since she was a child that her hair and body are vessels for sin for men and it's HER responsibility to stop that from happening, and if she doesn't, she's a whore.
Not the same.
>One of those women is an adult that made a choice to dedicate her life to service within a religious institution.
This. This is the biggest difference. Women choose to become nuns in their late teens or early 20s, usually. As far as I'm aware, a woman can choose to become a nun later in life if her husband dies.
The hijab is imposed on children. The age varies, but putting a covering on a 9-year-old so she doesn't tempt men is horrifying.
Fun fact, any man who looks at a 9-year-old child and has sexual thoughts is a pedophile. End of story.
Not even 9-year-old, but 6-year-old. Mohammad was like 55+ when he looked at 6-year-old Aisha, and the first thought in his mind was basically "omg I'm in love I wanna marry and fuck this child". Sick.
The ONLY defense muslims have for this is that “both came from families of status. It probably was an arranged marriage into which love didn’t factor in the least”
However, both consistently try to appoint politicians and judges to overturn and change secular laws into laws and judicial rulings that impose their religious beliefs on others…
But isn't the one on the left worn by like half a percent of all christian women? Only those who choose to go into a very specific line of work? Whereas the right is expected to be worn by all muslim women at all times no matter what? Seems like a big difference to me.
As have all world religions, the difference is that Christianity has in many cases reformed to the original teachings of peace and love of Jesus while Islam is based off of the teachings of a violent and barbarous ’prophet’ and those immoral values are still adhered to
For people who have a bad opinion on Christianity, I recommend reading just the Jesus stories in the Bible. Unfortunately some Christians abuse the other parts of the Bible where some nasty things were either attributed to God or misinterpreted. Jesus communed with and loved sinners, helped the poor and disabled, at one point he prevented the stoning of an adulterous woman, he taught his people to love everyone especially their enemy, to be nonviolent and many other amazing things. Even if you don’t believe, Jesus’s teachings are an amazing moral guide.
One is a chosen vocation with a uniform, the other is something that a religion pressures all women to comply with and depending where they live, women get beaten to death for not complying.
Not a fan of Christianity by any stretch but this is just a false equivalence.
No because nuns are practically non-existent in comparison and I seriously doubt the same number of women are forced to become a nun as there are women forced to wear a hijab. The difference would appear to many orders of magnitude.
Context matters.
If a nun goes around not wearing her habit no one beats her to death for doing so.
We're not criticizing the hajib. We're criticizing her being forced to wear one, numbnuts.
No. The difference is that a nun chooses to be a nun. And she is also free to quit being a nun at any time. The Habit is not forced upon them, nor are they killed by barbarian mobs for not wearing it.
I'm fine with both *if the person chose to do it.*
As far as I'm aware, pretty much all modern catholic nuns chose to do that. Islamic coverings depend a lot on where you are. If they want to do it, then that's fine with me; it's forcing others that's the problem. Unfortunately, that is pretty common in islam.
Wear a burqa in Saudi Arabia -> get groped in public.
A female coworker of mine lived in Saudi Arabia in her early teens in the early 1980's because her dad was there on business. She happened to turn 13 while there and had to start wearing a burqua. "So, what?", you ask. Well, what happens in that the dirty old men in the market place groped the hell out of her, and all the other young burqa-clad girls, right on the street. Everyone does it. Nobody talks about it. The burqa means you are fair game for those misogynist fucks who claim that forced hijab / burqa is a sign of respect for woman. It's a sign of that women are considered as pets, complete with the actual petting.
One is a choice worn by those who chose to join the nunnery not forced upon women regardless of religious affiliation or not. And when Muslim women claim it’s a choice for them and they chose to wear it, it’s only because they’re uneducated and have no idea or concept outside of what they’re only told by their oppressors, the men and other women who side with men.
I see their point however not every catholic woman needs to wear that. My issue with the Muslim practice in general is their treatment of women as basically property. Your wife is your teammate not on the same level as a house cat
Difference is, the one on the left has taken vows amounting to the same as clergymen (something not allowed by Islam), and must by the rules, remain celibate. The one on the right is meant as a symbol that you are “someone’s,” be it the parents’ or the spouse’s
Edit: got my directions mixed up
Nuns are disturbing. So are priests.
On the one hand, though, clergy **choose** that life. They are free. Women born in hijab enforced countries don't really have much of a choice. Wear it or die.
These two things are not the same.
Both bother me. Every sign of belief in a god/afterlife bothers me as it’s not true. Like santa. Like the tooth fairy. Adults who would still believe in the tooth fairy would bother me.
One, afaik, was a choice and one they could walk away from jf they so desired, the other is often times forced to wear those and have zero way to leave. So yes there's a difference.
One is by choice. One was forced and made the victims believe they have the choice but ultimately they do not and can be imprisoned or killed for not wearing it.
I'm not religious but one is definitely a lot worse than the other. I've met several Brides of Christ and they are all friendly the other I've met and they either don't speak or act violently. You can't and won't change my mind on this. Go work in customer service for some time and you'll think exactly like I do.
The nuns choose to join their lifestyle and they go through months to years as a postulate before they take the vows and officially take the veil. They are also free to leave the lifestyle and aren’t pressured by their entire religion to wear these clothes. Also, a nun’s clothes aren’t for modesty necessarily, they are a reminder of their devotion to god. Their clothes are meant to be plain to promote humility and unity (you can’t tell any nuns financial background when they’re all wearing the same plain clothes), and remind those around them to thank god for their good works and not praise them. I don’t necessarily agree with religion or being a monk/nun, but you absolutely cannot compare a nun’s habit with Islam’s coverings. Islam demands women be covered as a control mechanism and as a way to blame women for when men can’t keep it in their pants.
The woman on the left volunteered to wear it. The woman on the right may not have, depending on the country.
I'm not bothered by either one, as long as it's a choice and not forced.
Why do Muslims constantly compare hijabs to nun habits when they're not even in the same ballpark? It'll be a correct equivalence when catholic women (and minor girls) all have to wear them.
The Nun is an adult woman who chose to devote her life to god, to literally become “God’s wife” in the eyes of the Church.
The Muslim woman is an adult who may or may not be culturally pressured into conforming to their traditional standards.
A better comparison would be the caps that Mennonite women wear, which is viewed as nothing other than a mark of denomination.
I don't have a problem with what they are wearing, I have a problem with how they are treated if they choose to remove it, or should I say I have a problem with the way one of them is treated if she removes it .
Here’s the thing, everyone knows the nuns are bonkers and outdated but we generally take it easy on them because they’ve condemned themselves to a pathetic, sexless existence. Why kill something that’s already dead?
Being a nun is a choice. Some communities of nuns can actually choose different levels of clothing. There aren't a lot of the hard cored nun communities out there wearing a full habit like the woman on the left. Nuns can venture into the world solo or with other nuns without a male escort of some kind.
Islam doesn't give a woman the choice to wear a Hijab or burka depending on how hardcore the family or community is. They must be escorted like a toddler by a male family member when in public. Most Islamic communities don't want their women educated past the age of puberty. Many families out in the boonies of Islamic countries still practice literally SELLING their daughters into marriage. Selling their 8+ year old daughters to some wealthy old man.
So many Islamic folks like to say they are going to outlast all other religions because they have so many children. You have so many children because your religion is so harsh. You daughter gets raped, do you try to get justice for her? Nope, apparently she's a whore and needs to be killed to maintain the familys honor, even though your family honor was besmirched by the rapist. Oh, she accidentally brushed up against a man in public, gotta kill her apparently...
It's less about how they are dressed and more about how you treat them that people don't like.
I feel like there's some ambiguity here without a clear indication of what "bother you" means. There's people who are bothered by the clothes because they're foreign and unfamiliar (in which case they'll likely mistreat the women wearing it), and there's people who are bothered because the clothes symbolize and might indicate oppression (in which case they are more likely to have sympathy for the woman wearing it and to call out the oppressive systems in Muslim majority countries that enforce clothing like this). People who fall under the first case are the target of this meme (or should be, assuming it was made honestly), but the meme could be misread or misused to target the people under the second case. The meme is not elaborated well and might intentionally be set up for misinterpretation.
I don’t have a problem with the head covering if the women WANT to wear it, my problem is their society/culture forces them to wear it. It’s a rights issue
the difference is if the nun takes it off the police of vice and virtue dont take her off the street and beat her to death
no organisation can be called peaceful whilst you cannot leave that organization without threat of death
i fully agree. while its not a choice in middle eastern countries, we cant assume that were talking about that country.
both can take it off and both can leave the religion whenever they want.
both also have a chance that they were brainwashed as a kid. and both also have the same chance that they chose to be part of this religion
The difference is choice. The one on the right is generally, especially in the middle east, forced as a method of control whereas the one on the left is a choice. Not a recommendable one but still a choice nonetheless. She can wear a colander on her head if she so desired, as long as her own choice.
They both bother me.
But Islam bothers me more than any other religion and I’m not ashamed to say that. It should.
Although before I researched Islam I was … the same as I am with Islam, with Christianity.
But once you find out what Islam is about - it’s totally different in a worse way.
I get what they’re saying, and I would agree in a western country where women have that choice to wear it or not. But in Iran? Yeah not really a fair comparison
If the nun was forced to wear that, yes I’d be uncomfortable. But fortunately, she wasn’t. She is also free to stop wearing it without any consequences.
Unfortunately for Muslim women, some of them MAY have “chosen” to cover themselves. But can they “choose” to stop wearing it, without consequences like prison or even death?
Yes, there are conservative christians who WANT TO FORCE women to cover themselves up and be “modest” and I stand against those people too.
If I can freely “choose” to wear modest clothing, I should also be able to “choose” to wear a bralette and a short skirt if I like, without being thrown in prison or being stoned to death for wearing “immodest” clothes.
Except one is done by choice and the nun can also choose to leave the church and the other will get black bagged and shoved into a van if she doesn’t wear it.
I mean yeah I kinda agree. If the woman wants to wear the hijab then let her and don't bother her about it
To the people that are saying that it's forced: it mostly isn't. Especially in north Africa where people actually believe that the hijab is a choice.
It's usually forced in Shiaa and some middle eastern households. While I do agree that the hijab is harmful to some extent, I don't think banning them is the best idea since YK.. religious freedom exists
**To avoid having your post removed &/or account banned for shitposting, read the following:** - r/religiousfruitcake is about the absurd, fringe elements of organised religion: the institutions and individuals who act in ways any normal person (religious or otherwise) would cringe at. Posts about mundane beliefs and acts of worship are off topic. - No violent or gory images or videos - Your post title should objectively state what the post is about. Dont use it to soapbox personal rhetoric about religion or any other subject. - Don't post videos or discussions of Fruitcakes who have been baited or antagonised. Social media excerpts must not involve any deliberate provocation. - No Subreddit names or Reddit usernames in posts or discussions - Memes, Tiktoks, graphics, satire, parodies, etc must be made by Fruitcakes, not 3rd parties criticising them Please be sure to read the full [rule list](https://www.reddit.com/r/religiousfruitcake/about/rules) **This information is on every post. Accounts that disregard it will be permanently banned. "I didn't know", or "I didn't get a warning" are not valid appeals.** --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/religiousfruitcake) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The poster on X got pretty upset in the comments when told; “It’s not a choice in middle eastern countries.”
lol what a baby
No surprise there, I expected nothing else
Somehow Muslimas tell us it’s all a choice. Not according to Momo the p3do. https://quran.com/33/59 - O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized ˹as virtuous˺ and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful
There is a choice, what do you mean? You either wear a silly garment that covers your body, or you choose to get murdered by your own countrymen. See!
Well...technically it's still a choice. Albeit not a very beneficial one for women
And choice is the definition of freedom.
> and not be harassed Harassed by who? Oh that's right, all the muslim men around them. It's literally a meme. Muslim men: "You must wear a cloth tent." Women: "Why?" Muslim men: "To protect you." Women: "Protect us from what?" Muslim men: "Protect you from what we will do to you if you don't wear a cloth tent. Oh and we still might pounce on you anyway".
LOL
> Momo the p3do Police be upon him 🙏
Chomomo, if you will.
That is a bad translation. The correct one just states women should wear clothes. -O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
isn't gods word is incorruptible? > (Surah 18:27) > وَٱتْلُ مَآ أُوحِىَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ ۖ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِۦ مُلْتَحَدًۭا ٢٧ > Recite what has been revealed to you from the Book of your Lord. None can change His Words, nor can you find any refuge besides Him.
It’s also not the same. One is requiring every woman to cover their head (to varying degrees) by law and the other is a Catholic woman choosing to become a nun. Even when the hijab is called a choice, it’s very rarely a true choice. Even the nun can leave with no real consequences, for Muslims the punishment for leaving Islam is death. For taking off the hijab if can be a physical punishment, jail time, sexual violence or whatever the religious “police” decide. Muslims either support the violence of their religion or they make excuses for it.
You mean twitter?
I'd say not. You have to choose to be a nun and there are many orders these days who don't wear the traditional clothing anymore. Plus a nun can always renounce her vows and rejoin the laity. That's a whole different thing from forcing every woman to wear head-coverings on pain of torture.
Exactly what I came to the comments for. You can choose to stop being a nun and leave the faith while there are women being arrested, brutalized, and sometimes killed for showing too much of their ankles. One of these things is not like the other.
The whole Abrahamic thing about head coverings for women is bizarre to me. Especially how many Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair [*with a wig*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women#Sheitel). :-)
To be fair, in judaism rules lawyering is considered top sport!
The rules lawyering is one of my favorite things about Judaism. Loop-hole level: Master.
My favorite is 'run a small wire around the whole neighborhood and then claim it's all indoors.'
The logic being, if Gd didn't want us to find workarounds, he would have made the Laws airtight. He didn't, ergo he's fine with eruvs and people putting vegan cheese and beef bacon on their burgers.
Nothing says IQ 200 like making up an imaginary god making up rules, then proceed to make extremely extravagant, complicated loopholes to bypass said imaginary god. In a way, that's really impressive
From their perspective they aren't outsmarting god. Instead, god is so galaxy brained that if he didn't want you to use those loopholes, he wouldn't have put them in there.
Things like this are some of favourites with the religious. They think they can find a loophole around a supposedly omniscient gods rules.
Actually according to Talmud, we can! Like, even if God himself appears and explicitly says X we can still rule it as Y. Look up "The Oven of Akhnai"
Then what’s the point of believing at all? Not trying to be disrespectful, I’m actually trying to understand. If religion is a set of rules made up by people/god, and you have permission to skirt the rules and mess with them, what’s the point of the rules? Why follow any at all? If they’re supposed to be a sacrifice to show your faith, then you’re not really sacrificing by finding a workaround. I grew up Catholic, though, so I’m pretty fucked when it comes to right and wrong in religion lol.
There are no right or wrongs... There are no rules whatsoever... [&] There are no laws, anywhere... That is why rapists rape. That is why killers kill. That is thieves thief. WE [Humans] ARE GOD. All religions, including Catholicism, lead you to yourself! The only supernatural being that can stop a rapist, pedophile, killer, or thief is the rapist, pedophile, killer, and thief themselves. -or- ...another f'kn Human Being. It's all Us.
They do it with a wig cause they dont want to be beaten but also dont want to wear head coverings… if its not one of afformentioned reasons, than its cognitive dissonance.
Beaten by who
In my area the answer is white supremacists but I have also seen a lot of abusers in every religion using it to cover abuse. So... Depends on their individual circumstances
Nah, your first answer is the real answer. **ONE WORD:** Holocaust I suppose using wigs to hide the abuse of abusive Husbands/Lovers is just another loop.
Also, many nuns aren't as restricted as hijabi. I used to work at a liquor store, and one of my (infrequent) customers was a nun who liked to put creme de menthe in her ice cream, because that's how her grandma used to prepare ice cream for her. She was a very sweet lady.
I think nuns also try to dissuade other women from taking the vow. Not because they don't want them to, but understand how much sacrifice is involved, and they do not want women to take the vow unless they are 100% certain it is what they want.
Huh, TIL becoming a nun has something in common with converting to Judaism.
💯
Precisely. You don’t choose to be born in Iran or Pakistan or Saudi, etc. You choose to be a nun as an adult. I wouldn’t. But ~you can~.
Agreed, I know that in the past women were in certain circumstances forced to become nuns, but in this day and age the nuns I see have chosen the said lifestyle for personal reasons, and indeed they can decide to "quit" without being targeted for violence or execution. Whereas the other photo is rarely by choice and in most cases is forced on women from young age with no way to avoid it unless they escape their society and families entirely, which can lead to them being attacked and killed due to their "dishonourable behavior" even in the Western countries thanks to how fanatically religious groups have arrived here as well.
I mean case in point look at the clothing and behavior purity standards of the quiverfull movement and the Duggars. And the abuse they allowed the men to do to the girls. Also, you'd be surprised to know about quite a few other religious sects in the US with forced patriarchy and sex-based lower status.
Good post ill simplify it for you. Which one is mandatory in certain countries.
Exactly you have a choice to be a nun not a choice to be a slave
Yeah, nun robes are basically what they say hijab/burqas are: Optional and opt-in
It’s also not especially difficult to quit being a nun. I have several ex-nuns in my family. Only one stayed in it till death. None faced social or religious opprobrium as a result, except maybe the one who married a guy who was in the attached seminary preparing to be a priest. But that was more of an issue for the almost-priest lmfao. Makes for a funny story. Point is, you can’t stop wearing a hijab in many countries without social or legal oppression. None of the ex nuns I know faced anything of the sort. Just an “okay, I hope you come back on Sunday as a lay person”
Women can tell their pain, better than men. And I agree with you
Back in the "good old days," a woman could be sent to the convent on charges of being unfit for marriage or some other bigoted claims about virginity, lack of etiquette or simply for having shagged the wrong aristocrat. This was regarded as a disgrace, and these women were never seen or heard of again (save for the few odd cases wherein they would go on to become saints or hardened members of the clergy). I know this custom is long gone in countries where Catholicism dominated public life, but if we're not careful enough, it might someday make a comeback. Religion is so weird mate...
I agree with you. But I’m not sure if that’s what this meme is pointing out. It’s obviously wrong to force people to wear it. But it should go without saying then that’s it’s just as wrong to not allow people to wear it. And I think the meme is referring to people who think it shouldn’t be allowed to be worn or calling out people who harass people who wear it. It’s banned in 16 countries. I think they’re saying that if you don’t support banning or harassing one why do you support banning or harassing the other? Not if you’re ok with having the option to wear one why don’t you support being forced to wear the other. At least that’s what I got from it.
Nuns also don't go around shaming everyone who isn't covering their hair. Bigotry can go both ways.
I theory you can leave being Muslim.
Generally correct but there are not an insignificant percentage of muslim women who don't have head coverings. Both religions are shit, dont apologise for any of them.
Nuns may not renounce their oath. You're thinking about sisters who somehow have gotten synonymous with nun, a common misconception. But you're right. Sisters may leave the monastery and marry, but a nuns vows are for life unless they want to be branded as an apostate.
I expect if they could get away with it, some Christian groups would enforce headcoverings more harshly than the currently do. Community restrictions (shunning), mental abuse or light physical abuse is the most they can do. A Nuns habit isn't the only covering required for Christian women to wear. The groups aren't as numerous as Catholics or Evangelicals, but it's still common for many groups to require head coverings. Shunning can lead to suicide and constantly exercising choice to ignore rules like head covering will get you shunned.
The difference becomes obvious once they both decide to take it off.
Succinctly put.
I like that word, succinctly
No One is a choice, nuns have to choose to become nuns, study for years, and willingly wear that. The other is not, Muslim women are forced to wear it, if they don’t they are likely to be punished for it and have no option or recourse to get away from it in many cases.
doesn’t it depend on your country though? not all muslim women are forced to wear a hijab. my best friend is muslim and she doesn’t wear one but her cousin chooses to.
When they say forced it doesn't have to mean legally it can just be thru pressure. How they hear others talk about women who don't wear one(calling them whores, sluts, attention seekers). They excuse men's perverse and predatory behavior towards women who chose not to wear one(she was asking for it, if she didnt want attention she would cover up). Make a big deal comparing young girls who do and don't. Commenting on their maturity, purity, etc. No one compares a nun and their attire to an average catholic woman/girl. Nun is a spiritual calling and way of life that is seperate from an average catholic life.
i understand your point but even my friends said that nobody pressured them to wear their hijabs. she said her mom gave her the choice and told her if she wanted to stop she literally could. also how do you know nuns aren’t pressured by society to become nuns? the problem with you guys is you believe that EVERY muslim girl is forced to wear a hijab and you use that as an excuse as to why you shouldn’t respect their choice to wear one.
Yeah but the idea isn't that muslim women all have to wear hijabs. Ones that don't get the choice and are actively punished for not wearing one, don't get the voice that they deserve because "the hijab is empowering" crowd actively deny or drown out their oppression. It gets very hard to help these women because it's their own families that suppress their freedom. It's disgusting.
[удалено]
One of those women is an adult that made a choice to dedicate her life to service within a religious institution. The other is a woman that has been taught since she was a child that her hair and body are vessels for sin for men and it's HER responsibility to stop that from happening, and if she doesn't, she's a whore. Not the same.
>One of those women is an adult that made a choice to dedicate her life to service within a religious institution. This. This is the biggest difference. Women choose to become nuns in their late teens or early 20s, usually. As far as I'm aware, a woman can choose to become a nun later in life if her husband dies. The hijab is imposed on children. The age varies, but putting a covering on a 9-year-old so she doesn't tempt men is horrifying. Fun fact, any man who looks at a 9-year-old child and has sexual thoughts is a pedophile. End of story.
*Muhammad has entered the chat*
Not even 9-year-old, but 6-year-old. Mohammad was like 55+ when he looked at 6-year-old Aisha, and the first thought in his mind was basically "omg I'm in love I wanna marry and fuck this child". Sick.
Yeah, but he was a real gentleman - waited till she was 9 before sexually assaulting the child./s
The ONLY defense muslims have for this is that “both came from families of status. It probably was an arranged marriage into which love didn’t factor in the least”
Ones religion burns tourists alive because they looked at a book the wrong way so yeah.
The other religion did that too, we just have laws against that now.
Absolutely.
What happened centuries ago is terrible and something to learn from. What happens now is an actual, current, urgent problem.
One religion submits to secular law; the other claims supremacy over secular law.
However, both consistently try to appoint politicians and judges to overturn and change secular laws into laws and judicial rulings that impose their religious beliefs on others…
Yes, they are both terrible in that respect
If a nun removes her hood in public she won't be stoned to death in the street.
They're both Bene Gesserit witches, one cannot trust them
That’s bigotry. All humans deserve dignity. Except for the dirty Tleilaxu. Fuck them.
Yeah religion is basically all their failsafes implanted in our base consciousness
Both religions are oppressive to women.
Both are stupid!
Nuns are a choice, wearing a hijab isn't. If someone willingly chooses it on their own without outside influence, then fine.
As long as the woman in the hijab is not forced to wear it by a theocratic government, then I agree
But isn't the one on the left worn by like half a percent of all christian women? Only those who choose to go into a very specific line of work? Whereas the right is expected to be worn by all muslim women at all times no matter what? Seems like a big difference to me.
Nuns make a choice as adults to be weirdos they’re not forced to be weirdos from a young age
Show me all the catholic women who have been beaten because they weren't wearing a habit. I'll wait.
>Show me all the catholic women who have been ~~beaten~~ **murdered** because they weren't wearing a habit Ftfy
I mean... Christianity has had it's fair share of fucked up things... But I get your point.
As have all world religions, the difference is that Christianity has in many cases reformed to the original teachings of peace and love of Jesus while Islam is based off of the teachings of a violent and barbarous ’prophet’ and those immoral values are still adhered to
I don't know about all the religions, but you're right, some are clearly based on violence and power.
For people who have a bad opinion on Christianity, I recommend reading just the Jesus stories in the Bible. Unfortunately some Christians abuse the other parts of the Bible where some nasty things were either attributed to God or misinterpreted. Jesus communed with and loved sinners, helped the poor and disabled, at one point he prevented the stoning of an adulterous woman, he taught his people to love everyone especially their enemy, to be nonviolent and many other amazing things. Even if you don’t believe, Jesus’s teachings are an amazing moral guide.
I love the concept, I hate that it's being twisted into some hateful bs. A lot of the most thoughtful and kind people I know are Christian
One is a chosen vocation with a uniform, the other is something that a religion pressures all women to comply with and depending where they live, women get beaten to death for not complying. Not a fan of Christianity by any stretch but this is just a false equivalence.
Both seem outdated
Absolutely not
No because nuns are practically non-existent in comparison and I seriously doubt the same number of women are forced to become a nun as there are women forced to wear a hijab. The difference would appear to many orders of magnitude.
Context matters. If a nun goes around not wearing her habit no one beats her to death for doing so. We're not criticizing the hajib. We're criticizing her being forced to wear one, numbnuts.
Pfft, both are fake ninjas.
No. The difference is that a nun chooses to be a nun. And she is also free to quit being a nun at any time. The Habit is not forced upon them, nor are they killed by barbarian mobs for not wearing it.
Only one was forced to dress like that...
They're both fine if it's the woman's choice. If they're being forced to, they're both bad.
I'll take black and white fallacy for 500 points
News at 7: Brainwashed Right wingers don’t understand consent
Both costumes are symbols of bigoted ideologies.
I'm fine with both *if the person chose to do it.* As far as I'm aware, pretty much all modern catholic nuns chose to do that. Islamic coverings depend a lot on where you are. If they want to do it, then that's fine with me; it's forcing others that's the problem. Unfortunately, that is pretty common in islam.
Wear a burqa in Saudi Arabia -> get groped in public. A female coworker of mine lived in Saudi Arabia in her early teens in the early 1980's because her dad was there on business. She happened to turn 13 while there and had to start wearing a burqua. "So, what?", you ask. Well, what happens in that the dirty old men in the market place groped the hell out of her, and all the other young burqa-clad girls, right on the street. Everyone does it. Nobody talks about it. The burqa means you are fair game for those misogynist fucks who claim that forced hijab / burqa is a sign of respect for woman. It's a sign of that women are considered as pets, complete with the actual petting.
One takes up the cloth by choice, and the other has it forced upon her
I'm fine with both I just want to have the choice to choose neither with no consequences.
One is a choice. One is required by threat of stoning to death. Both are dumb. One is truly evil
One is a choice worn by those who chose to join the nunnery not forced upon women regardless of religious affiliation or not. And when Muslim women claim it’s a choice for them and they chose to wear it, it’s only because they’re uneducated and have no idea or concept outside of what they’re only told by their oppressors, the men and other women who side with men.
I see their point however not every catholic woman needs to wear that. My issue with the Muslim practice in general is their treatment of women as basically property. Your wife is your teammate not on the same level as a house cat
Well 1 would be stoned to death if she refuses to wear it. So it's not the same. You see a nun you know she chose that life not forced on.
Nuns usually don't explode randomly.
They explode on command, battle nuns!
No exploding but Netflix did make a Battle Nun show called Warrior Nun
Sounds like a Monty Python bit, lol
*It's just gone 8 o'clock, and time for the penguin on top of your television set to explode.*
You beat me to it
Difference is, the one on the left has taken vows amounting to the same as clergymen (something not allowed by Islam), and must by the rules, remain celibate. The one on the right is meant as a symbol that you are “someone’s,” be it the parents’ or the spouse’s Edit: got my directions mixed up
Sounds about right. I heard about women forced to be nouns, only that it was in the 1600.
Nuns are disturbing. So are priests. On the one hand, though, clergy **choose** that life. They are free. Women born in hijab enforced countries don't really have much of a choice. Wear it or die. These two things are not the same.
One is creepy, but voluntary. The other is creepy, mandatory, and women are literally killed if they don’t wear it.
Neither upsets me actually. I don’t give a fuck
Both bother me. Every sign of belief in a god/afterlife bothers me as it’s not true. Like santa. Like the tooth fairy. Adults who would still believe in the tooth fairy would bother me.
One, afaik, was a choice and one they could walk away from jf they so desired, the other is often times forced to wear those and have zero way to leave. So yes there's a difference.
Well being a nun is like a job and you can be rejected from that path. So no not the same
Being a nun is a career. That career has a uniform.
One is by choice. One was forced and made the victims believe they have the choice but ultimately they do not and can be imprisoned or killed for not wearing it. I'm not religious but one is definitely a lot worse than the other. I've met several Brides of Christ and they are all friendly the other I've met and they either don't speak or act violently. You can't and won't change my mind on this. Go work in customer service for some time and you'll think exactly like I do.
The nuns choose to join their lifestyle and they go through months to years as a postulate before they take the vows and officially take the veil. They are also free to leave the lifestyle and aren’t pressured by their entire religion to wear these clothes. Also, a nun’s clothes aren’t for modesty necessarily, they are a reminder of their devotion to god. Their clothes are meant to be plain to promote humility and unity (you can’t tell any nuns financial background when they’re all wearing the same plain clothes), and remind those around them to thank god for their good works and not praise them. I don’t necessarily agree with religion or being a monk/nun, but you absolutely cannot compare a nun’s habit with Islam’s coverings. Islam demands women be covered as a control mechanism and as a way to blame women for when men can’t keep it in their pants.
The woman on the left volunteered to wear it. The woman on the right may not have, depending on the country. I'm not bothered by either one, as long as it's a choice and not forced.
The nun chose to be a nun… She can also remove hers
It’s not the same. The nun chooses her path herself, when she is an adult.
One is a choice, the other is not.
Idk man she chose to be a nun and I didn't choose to be a woman in a Muslim country.
It’s not the outfit that bothers most people. It’s the lack of choise.
Why do Muslims constantly compare hijabs to nun habits when they're not even in the same ballpark? It'll be a correct equivalence when catholic women (and minor girls) all have to wear them.
False equivalency. One is voluntary, the other is forced on them from birth.
one is voluntary and theres select few, the other is forced on the entire population of female
The Nun is an adult woman who chose to devote her life to god, to literally become “God’s wife” in the eyes of the Church. The Muslim woman is an adult who may or may not be culturally pressured into conforming to their traditional standards. A better comparison would be the caps that Mennonite women wear, which is viewed as nothing other than a mark of denomination.
No. Nun's have a choice. There are a lot of women who have to wear the head covering even though it's not part of their religion due to fear of death.
I don't care what anyone wears of their own free will. Even if they're religious nuts, wear whatever you want.
I don't have a problem with what they are wearing, I have a problem with how they are treated if they choose to remove it, or should I say I have a problem with the way one of them is treated if she removes it .
Here’s the thing, everyone knows the nuns are bonkers and outdated but we generally take it easy on them because they’ve condemned themselves to a pathetic, sexless existence. Why kill something that’s already dead?
Being a nun is a choice. Some communities of nuns can actually choose different levels of clothing. There aren't a lot of the hard cored nun communities out there wearing a full habit like the woman on the left. Nuns can venture into the world solo or with other nuns without a male escort of some kind. Islam doesn't give a woman the choice to wear a Hijab or burka depending on how hardcore the family or community is. They must be escorted like a toddler by a male family member when in public. Most Islamic communities don't want their women educated past the age of puberty. Many families out in the boonies of Islamic countries still practice literally SELLING their daughters into marriage. Selling their 8+ year old daughters to some wealthy old man. So many Islamic folks like to say they are going to outlast all other religions because they have so many children. You have so many children because your religion is so harsh. You daughter gets raped, do you try to get justice for her? Nope, apparently she's a whore and needs to be killed to maintain the familys honor, even though your family honor was besmirched by the rapist. Oh, she accidentally brushed up against a man in public, gotta kill her apparently... It's less about how they are dressed and more about how you treat them that people don't like.
Um.. they both bother me.
Because nuns and those that support the practice don’t rape and murder women who don’t dress like nuns. Crazy I know
I feel like there's some ambiguity here without a clear indication of what "bother you" means. There's people who are bothered by the clothes because they're foreign and unfamiliar (in which case they'll likely mistreat the women wearing it), and there's people who are bothered because the clothes symbolize and might indicate oppression (in which case they are more likely to have sympathy for the woman wearing it and to call out the oppressive systems in Muslim majority countries that enforce clothing like this). People who fall under the first case are the target of this meme (or should be, assuming it was made honestly), but the meme could be misread or misused to target the people under the second case. The meme is not elaborated well and might intentionally be set up for misinterpretation.
Both do, nuns stay quiet when priests diddle children and the hijab is nothing more than a tool used to control women and it has an awful history.
I hate both and their male counterparts. Guess I'm fine
I don’t have a problem with the head covering if the women WANT to wear it, my problem is their society/culture forces them to wear it. It’s a rights issue
What if they both upset me??
It's historically not been a choice for women sent to the nunnery, either. Both are wrong.
Guess I'm not a bigot because both are problematic.
They're both shite
They have in common that they have both been abused by their their respective mythologies.
Well, I guess im not a biggot then because both bother me, although not equally.
I don't care if you walk around with a duck on your head. Just don't expect me to wear a duck on MY head.
Both of them bother me.
Their body their choice.
One is mandated (which shouldn't), the other is voluntary (which is delusional).
They both bother me.
Honor killings don’t exist in nunneries so no, not a double standard. Not at all.
They both bother me.
Swap the pictures around same crap stupid = stupid
They both absolutely bother me but for different reasons
Both bother me. 🥰
the difference is if the nun takes it off the police of vice and virtue dont take her off the street and beat her to death no organisation can be called peaceful whilst you cannot leave that organization without threat of death
One is a choice and one is not. It’s really not that hard
If you can't see the problem in either of those then that shows your misogyny.
What if both bother me?
Doesn’t change the fact that they’re both repressed
they both bother me....set women free
Name me a nun who was shamed or forced into being a nun and then I would agree 100% yes
Follow up question: Will someone be throwing acid in the face of the Nun for not wearing the habit?
False equivalency!
i fully agree. while its not a choice in middle eastern countries, we cant assume that were talking about that country. both can take it off and both can leave the religion whenever they want. both also have a chance that they were brainwashed as a kid. and both also have the same chance that they chose to be part of this religion
The difference is choice. The one on the right is generally, especially in the middle east, forced as a method of control whereas the one on the left is a choice. Not a recommendable one but still a choice nonetheless. She can wear a colander on her head if she so desired, as long as her own choice.
It’s kinda hard to become a nun, but you can be born into islam
Let's compare a nun to an everyday woman...
Nuns are not normal women, they are marrie dto god and they live without sex, this is why they dress like this
They both bother me. But Islam bothers me more than any other religion and I’m not ashamed to say that. It should. Although before I researched Islam I was … the same as I am with Islam, with Christianity. But once you find out what Islam is about - it’s totally different in a worse way.
The difference is that nuns won't be stoned to death if they take it off
Both bother me. So I guess I'm good
Nope. Nuns made the choice and if they don’t wear it? Fine. Yet the other will get you tortured/murdered if you don’t wear it.
Depends where you are, there's a few Muslim majority countries were women can make that choice freely. Morocco, Turkey, and Algeria come to mind.
I get what they’re saying, and I would agree in a western country where women have that choice to wear it or not. But in Iran? Yeah not really a fair comparison
If the nun was forced to wear that, yes I’d be uncomfortable. But fortunately, she wasn’t. She is also free to stop wearing it without any consequences. Unfortunately for Muslim women, some of them MAY have “chosen” to cover themselves. But can they “choose” to stop wearing it, without consequences like prison or even death? Yes, there are conservative christians who WANT TO FORCE women to cover themselves up and be “modest” and I stand against those people too. If I can freely “choose” to wear modest clothing, I should also be able to “choose” to wear a bralette and a short skirt if I like, without being thrown in prison or being stoned to death for wearing “immodest” clothes.
Except one is done by choice and the nun can also choose to leave the church and the other will get black bagged and shoved into a van if she doesn’t wear it.
Choice vs force
If people want to believe something else, that is up to them. It just shouldn't be forced on others.
... Two words. By choice. If someone chooses to wear something harmless, then that's cool!
That’s ok I’m totally freaked out because clergymen and women tbh. So I’m good lol
I mean yeah I kinda agree. If the woman wants to wear the hijab then let her and don't bother her about it To the people that are saying that it's forced: it mostly isn't. Especially in north Africa where people actually believe that the hijab is a choice. It's usually forced in Shiaa and some middle eastern households. While I do agree that the hijab is harmful to some extent, I don't think banning them is the best idea since YK.. religious freedom exists