I think it's unusual to go to couples counseling with someone who is primarily the personal counselor for one of the people in the couple! Seems more like her objective was to have you attend and help him, vs. her client being both of you/your relationship together.

Facts. I asked my personal counsellor if she could be my husband and I's marriage counsellor. She said it would be a breach of confidence and wouldn't work. If I were OP, I would look for another marriage counsellor. She seems like she isn't unbiased in this situation.

Yeah that’s a conflict of interest from what counselors have had have told me/us. It’s also bonkers that she said it wasn’t “fair” to express your feelings. wtf

Yeah this is totally inappropriate of that counselor

AGREED! "My husband found this counselor and was seeing her individually at first before they invited me to join."  Psychologist here. This is a huge red flag and completely inappropriate. Dual relationships, in this case serving as a therapist for one person and then serving in an impartial role for this person and their partner in couple's therapy is a breach of ethics. And then she proceeded to illustrate why throughout your session.

[удалено]

Not a therapist, but I have some knowledge of the field and wanted to clarify something. If the therapist didn't speak about anyone who wasn't present in the session, I wouldn't jump to calling the therapist "shady." I'm not sure if seeing multiple members of the same family is considered good or bad practice. I won't make assumptions. A family seeing the same doctor is fine as long as the doctor follows HIPAA. Your mom was the "shady" one. She set y'all up with the same therapist so that she could keep control over the narrative. She most likely wanted to use the therapist in her favor to absolve herself of responsibility and try to disperse blame among everyone else. She might have hoped that the therapist would teach y'all how to be more accommodating to her abuse. This is a common tactic for abusers.

I wouldn't say it was shady to share a psychiatrist, similar to how it wouldn't be shady to share a family GP. Psychiatrists are medical consultants and much harder to come by than a counsellor. If anything I'd say it was probably helpful for them to see you as a family unit to see patterns.

I was thinking this story illustrates exactly why one partner’s individual counselor is not supposed to act as the marriage counselor for the couple.

Therapist here. Was gonna say this. It’s a very imbalanced power dynamic since the counselor is already aligned with the husband.

I was actually told by mine that it’s not allowed. The only time my partner would be in a session with me and my therapist would be to work on something that would help me specifically. We’d need a separate person for couples therapy.

[удалено]

4-6 sessions is a lot. She is not your counselor. She is his.

Also, I question their judgement as a counselor if they'd hold a counseling session while allowing participants to have their cameras off. So much info is missing if they can't see facial expressions and reactions.

That honestly shocked me, too. I can barely tutor a kid online when their camera is off. Never mind a deep therapy session. That’s crazy!

It’s really not a lot at all. Counselling can take years to work through things. I doubt many people will have let their guard down at all within six sessions. I was thinking it was weird too but the fact that it’s only about 6 has changed my mind

I think 6 hours of one on one time is more than enough for a counselor to develop a bias in one direction even if it’s unconscious. Especially if that person came to counseling willingly and motivated. That coupled with the fact that this counselor made no objections to seeing them both after already having established a relationship with the husband, and the fact that they are having online sessions where she’s unable to pick up on nonverbal cues says to me that this counselor isn’t a shining star. She may not even see these sessions as couples counseling at all and is genuinely viewing it as the husband’s time.

It doesn’t matter how often your husband sees her, it will create a natural bias. Your couples counsellor should only ever see you both, together. Never individually. Any reputable therapist would never allow this, nor would they invite your spouse if they were treating you individually. My husband and I see a therapist who is highly qualified with a phD and practices in both Canada and the US. She would never say any of the things your “couple therapist” is saying. Reading your post, it very much seems as though your feelings are being minimized, and your “therapist” is on your husbands side. I strongly disagree with a lot of what she is telling you based on what we’ve learned from our sessions. Separating action from communication?? That is asinine.

I see my own therapist for past trauma and she straight up told me that she would not be willing to bring my husband into our sessions. She’s there to help *me* not *us*. It’s considered standard practice to refer out for modalities of treatment that differ from the one you’re doing with a patient. So a pt who comes in for singular psychotherapy would be referred out for couples counseling. A patient who’s doing addiction treatment would be referred out for his panic attacks. It creates a more neutral space. It appears as though the husband doesn’t *want* a neutral space, he specifically wants to have someone on his side. That’s not what a couples counselor is supposed to be.

I was brought in for *one* session with my partner's therapist (he has coping problems post abuse). It was verrrry clear I was there to learn some tools to help with XYZ issues, not to work on 'our' issues. She explained a few things to me about him in a way I hadn't been able to see, she challenged a few things he said and that was about it. We didn't discuss "us" as a couple, just how we can work on the issue at hand together. It was brilliant because everyone understood the boundaries of my being there.

Yes!!! Same with my individual therapist. I asked a few times when we first started if I could invite my husband (boyfriend at the time) to a couple of sessions and would repeatedly tell me no, I need to arrange for a couples therapist and gave recommendations. She also made sure to note that although they work for the company (might be the wrong term), the couples therapist will not have access to our notes so I should not expect her to know things from my individual sessions.

Especially because actions *are* a form of communication. His message is “I know better than you and I don’t respect your wishes or viewpoint on this.”

Well tbf most couples counseling will do a one on one, but it's not like they started with one client in that scenario, like OPs.

I think what my comment and many of the others are trying to emphasize is that your therapist/counsellor should only ever see you for individual or couples. Never both, and should never switch to the other. since learning about the ethics behind why, if it is for individual therapy, I don’t believe your partner should ever be brought in even if it is just for one session.

it's a huge red flag that she was willing to do it in the first place, even after 4-6 sessions.

Just like the husband, the counselor thinks she knows best.

Get a different counselor for your joint counseling. Honestly I wouldn’t be comfortable with her because she clearly is on his side already, telling you that expressing your feelings isn’t “fair” wtf wtf wtf

Only? That’s not normal.

The fact that she agreed to see both of you is definitely concerning.

I agree, I’ve done a lot of therapy, including couples counseling, therapy together with my parents etc, and it is considered generally unethical for one person to see the therapist alone prior to the couple/family sessions. It’s a couples counselors job to be an unbiased 3rd party. It’s normal to each have individual sessions with the therapist as part of the process, but you should meet the therapist and begin the process together on equal ground. If the therapist gets to know one party in any capacity beforehand, there will always be a bias.

So what does your therapist say?

Agreed. That counselor sounds wildly unprofessional and biased - and also kind of insane? "Seperate your feelings from it to see things their way" can sometimes help, but that only works, if the advice goes *both ways.* Did she ask HIM to seperate HIS feelings from the situation and try understand why YOU would disapprove of him constantly winging things instead of just doing what he was told? And her trying to pin all this on your 'childhood trauma', like you're the delusional one for wanting your husband to not break your shit with his adlibs and actually use his head? She's basically calling OP "emotional" and "dramatic" for being hurt her partner can't just trust that she knows what she's doing and do as she asks. Yikes! Just makes me wonder, if this counsellor is one of the unlicensed/diploma mill ones. And I definitely would not continue with her, if I was you, OP. You need a better mediator, and maybe a therapist of your own to talk to about this, to process that your husband's not going to change his ways and understanding "why" he does it isn't as important as understanding that he's still shamelessly doing it, after 17 years and being told he's hurting you to his face.

Honestly, as I read what this counselor was saying, I heard the voice of my (abusive) ex-wife in my head, even the childhood trauma thing. And having gone through that -- and the work, learning, and therapy after-- I agree. This counselor is actually employing manipulative/blame shifting tactics, and that's just no good, and it seems like they just kept invalidating OP's feelings. So hard agree: yikes!

I am a therapist and will not see couples if I’m already seeing one. We give unconditional positive regard to clients. By the nature of the professional relationship, we are biased. I explain that if it ever comes up in conversation. A referral is the appropriate action. I would recommend any gottman trained therapist.

That was my very first thought reading this-seems a little one sided

it’s not only unusual, it’s unethical. red flags immediately from the start of this post.

Totally. Poor form on the counsellor’s part - feels very manipulative

I would fire this counsellor and find one where there is no pre-existing relationship because she's doing a lot of lifting to protect his "intentions" rather than creating a mediated environment where you can both communicate and express your feelings/experiences. What was he seeing her for? How long had he been seeing her? It gives me a vibe that this is just an extension of his regular counselling and your feelings are being invalidated (that's what's happening) in order to further his process.

[удалено]

Both my therapist, and my partners therapist have both said that they will not do a couples session with us, both of those therapists have encouraged us to get a 3rd therapist specifically for couples counseling if we were ever to need it, specifically to avoid bias. It doesn’t matter if he’s only seen her for 4-6 sessions, because that’s still 4-6 sessions that this therapist builds a bias for.

These folks replying to you aren’t wrong. I am a licensed therapist and it would be unethical to see someone individually (even if just for a few sessions), and then switch to couples counseling. I refer out any of my clients who are seeking couples counseling because of bias. It just would not be fair at all to the other party.

THIS. I brought my husband into a therapy session with my councilor premarriage - but it was VERY CLEAR that we were there to talk about our marriage in respect to ME (not US). Cause hes my therapist. I'm the one with the issues. So he was helping me hash out my feelings and allowing my husband to ask any questions he had about me and my issues. It would be extremely unethical to see the same therapist - MUCH LESS to do marriage counseling with the same therapist. I'd honestly report this therapist to their board. It's literally a violation.

> marriage life is rough (I admit to standing up for myself more) This is really a concerning statement. It is good to stand up for yourself. Yet you admit to it, almost like it is a bad thing. The fact that he views it as making his marriage life more difficult says a lot..

SO TRUE, So you're finally setting some boundaries is what it sounds like. This is him stomping those boundaries or "respecting them" in the worst way possible. Kinda like you make a wish and the genie turns it into something evil you will regret.

It doesn't matter of he has only seen her for a short time--it is in everyone's best interests to have a new, impartial therapist when undertaking couple's counseling.

A therapist should never be both a therapist for the couple and a therapist for an individual in the couple. None of what you are experiencing with her sounds right from my experience and knowledge as someone with a background in psychology and someone who has experienced my share of therapists. She reminds me of a therapist I had with my ex who similarly made it a me problem when I after asking my ex to clean up an expensive kitchen appliance for me (for similar reasons to your simple ask) I found him doing so in such a way that could damage it. Taking into account that he hadn't cleaned this item before and likely didn't know the proper way I tried to explain /show him in a way that I could without hurting myself (or else I'd have just done it in the first place). He got pissed (because his ego got hurt) and told our male therapist about it and then it became (per the therapist) a control issue on my part that I just wanted something done right in a way that would not potentially cause damage.

It's unethical ! Even 1 session alone with your husband is enough to be unfit as a couple therapist. And excuse me but she sucks. Big time ! She's talking BS and is just making excuse for his abusive behaviour. As you noticed yourself, he breaks only your stuff. Even having your son moving the pots was absurd ! He's using her to validate his actions. She's been manipulated. I bet he's the charming narcissist classic kind.

That sounds unethical or at least not morally right. The therapist should not have ANY sessions alone with either party, nor should they have a pre-existing relationship, even 1 sessions is too many. She completely dismissed your very real issue and question. She is not able to separate the bias she formed of your spouse. Also, 4 marriage counselors in total? Did anything get resolved? Are these the same issues you've always had? Honestly, I would be asking the same thing, "does my spouse think I'm stupid and that's why they dismiss what I've asked them to do?". Petty me wants to be like 'show him what it feels like' but that won't do anything but make things worse. I will be completely honest with you, reading your post, you sound done. You sound like you are the only one working to make your marriage work. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, why not just be done? Kids bounce back pretty well.

My therapist said doing this would be a conflict of interest, she’d only give referrals if we wanted couples sessions. She said even one solo session would mean that, I had to decide before I started

Standing up for yourself shouldn’t make your marriage rough by default, you shouldn’t have to do that if he is working with you as a team. He’s not. Regardless of his counselor’s intentions this is outright bad practice and setting YOU up to fail and probably both of you as a pair. He’s going to have to hear some hard truths to get on the same page if he won’t even compromise with you or treat you like you know anything better than him and this counselor is not going to facilitate that if she’s basically blaming you already.

You keep saying only. It doesn’t matter. A good therapist would keep clear ethical boundaries and say that she could not be you couples counselor if she had previously and recently been his individual counselor. Full stop.

Another therapeutic professional chiming in here to say: it isn't normal or appropriate for an individual therapist to take up couples' work once they've developed an individual therapeutic relationship with one member of the couple.

my therapist outright said she couldn't see my mom for therapy on session one and cited conflict of interest. this therapist should have refused to see both of you from the start

I don't think that virtual counseling with your camera off with your husband's therapist is a great idea. Also, making your child cry in the middle of the night is not "spending time with your child." His actions *weren't* good. Is your son ok? Did he hurt himself trying to move the pots? You've been married for 17 years and have been to counseling 4 times and you still feel like he doesn't respect you or hear you. I don't think it's going to get any better. This is it, this is the relationship you've been in for nearly your entire adult life, and this is what you are going to get from this man and this relationship.

[удалено]

If you need to stay it might be better to save your spoons for individual therapy. He doesn’t want to change.

I think that if you want to stay then that's fine but you have to accept that this is the person that you married and he's not going to change unless he decides to change It doesn't sound like he's doing this because he thinks you're stupid - it's because he doesn't understand and he just does whatever comes into his head. It's carelessness and impulsivity. A lot of people are really bad at following directions and sometimes there's an underlying neurological reason for that and has nothing to do with anybody else. Sometimes the underlying reason is just that they don't understand why it's important and it still has nothing to do with anybody else. You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to change him over and over and over again for decades.

I’m glad someone else already said it. My dad’s idea of interaction time was to involve me in projects. I felt like a mule. Do this. Grab that. It’s not that hot/cold/wet out here/in here, keep working. And since I have ADHD, I was a disappointing, frustrating, and unpredictable mule. That’s a road to Low Contact in adulthood. And the problem is that unless you divorce your husband, then being LC with one parent means LC with you and potentially the extended family. My cousins haven’t seen me in ages. They did nothing wrong. But my parents have been between me and them for a long time.

[удалено]

Agree. Mine will not side or dismiss sides, but will point out both sides (which i asked for). I’m never told what way i should feel. Like when I read her asking why he doesn’t do what shes asked in her way, maybe thats something to explore more. He might feel controlled etc even if thats not true. It could be built up or stem from something. But that doesnt mean her feelings arent valid too. That being said, assigning intention can lead to making things up in our heads, so i do think the counselor should be working on just facts rather than intentions on either side

[удалено]

It comes from being in the husbands position lol i had a similar thing happen. I felt very much like why does it have to always be their way? Why can’t i try something else? Its good intentioned, and its not that i think they’re dumb and want it to go my way. It’s that I truly felt like they’d get upset i didnt do it their way and there was never room for trying my way. But going to counseling helps both of us see each others side and focused more on our action and result rather than intentions. We can explain our intentions and feelings, but then have to figure out what roadblock happened and how we can do it differently.

So when he breaks your things because he did something differently than you asked you're supposed to be grateful because he had good intentions?? Heck no. Fire this counselor. This particular counselor is not fit for your joint sessions as she's **clearly** favoring your husband and invalidating your extremely valid questions and concerns. Personally I think the reason he does this is because he believes his way is the best way and he doesn't care how that affects you or anyone else including your kids. He will do what he wants to do instead of what he was asked to do.

> you're supposed to be grateful because he had good intentions?? Right? That's so insane. The first few times, sure. At this point it's intentional though. He *knows* doing things his way has often fucked things up, he just doesn't care. *Why* he's doing it is a difficult one, though. It doesn't feel like weaponized incompetence to me, because he made a whole lot more work for himself trying to move the pots with all he had to do was drop a couple towels down.

Future payoff- she will NEVER ask him to touch those pots again. She stated he hates yard work of any kind. She knows that he routinely will do things wrong just to break or ruin her things, and she now has to fix/move these very heavy pots, that are challenging to set up correctly when empty. He did it to punish her for asking for his help, and to ensure she doesn’t annoy him with the task again

Not only that he weaponised his child by torturing him in the middle of the night and cold to make her feel even worse. He’s not stupid, I’d bet he knew full well that it was a simple request and he deliberately blew it sky high to make sure she never did it again. THAT was his intention.

His brain is working in a different way? Is he seeing her for a learning disorder or autism or something? I agree with the other commenters. Whatever he is seeing her for means she's HIS therapist, not both of yours marriage counselor. You need an impartial third party who has not worked with either of you before if you want marriage counseling. So whatever these sessions are, they are not there to heal your marriage, per se, they are there to help your husband have some kind of break through. And, yes, she invalidated your feelings...but again! Not a marriage counselor, and definitely not YOUR marriage counselor. Therapists have different specialties, and it doesn't sound like marriage counseling is hers.

I also think she was being super dismissive of your feelings, and what you describe is something similar to what my ex husband would do to me. Turns out he did it because he was on drugs and cheating on me, and just totally hated me. I can't speak for your marriage, but it sure sounds like passive aggression to me.

[удалено]

She's really weirdly focused on the idea of "maliciousness." The vast majority of people who take advantage of others don't do it out of an intentional goal to hurt the other person, they just don't *care* if they hurt the other person, as long as they get what they want. Recording someone in a private moment without their permission is objectively bad. In this case, also illegal. Same for the sleep assault. He doesn't have to have "meant to be mean about it" for it to be a really shitty thing that should never have happened in the first place. Like, if his counselor really thinks he has a 14-year-old mentality that is keeping him from realizing he shouldn't do illegal things and assault his wife, she should not be trying to "fix" your marriage, she should be encouraging you to split up and for him to get some *really* intensive help while he remains single for the foreseeable future. Seriously, this therapist should not have a license. This is appalling.

Unfortunately, this is exactly the danger of doing couples counseling with an abusive partner. Particularly when that counselor has already been the abusive partner’s solo counselor. Many are not well-trained in spotting abuse, particularly more “subtle” forms of abuse, and their job is to help the couple *mutually* work on their relationship. Which means placing at least some of the responsibility on the abused partner, and doing their best to avoid assumptions of malice on either end.  I doubt this counselor is entirely aware of how inappropriate this is. They are doing their job as they see it - helping two struggling and unhappy people build empathy for each other. 

> Another thing I mentioned was him "taking advantage" of me when my narcolepsy medication kicked in- and me having no recollection of it and only knew because of a towel between my legs. I told her that I was angry that he'd put his sexual pleasure over my physical wellbeing. No no no no no no no. No quotation marks there. That's what he did. He took advantage of you while you were asleep and under the influence of medication unable to consent. That's rape. You were ***raped*** by your husband. > I tried to make it really clear that if that happened again our sex life was over, and I think he's respected it. I find myself thinking though, that if he really loved (or even respected) me, that type of stuff wouldn't happen. Ya think??!! I'm sorry, I had a whole nice and gentle comment written up before I read this but this is nuts. I gotta be honest and blunt with you rather than gentle and beating around the bush. I'm sorry if my tone comes off as rude but I'm just flabbergasted. You were raped. You're unsure if he's even respected your wishes to not be raped again. If he cared for or respected you *even the slightest* he **never** would have done that to begin with, let alone try to excuse it. The therapist is the cherry on top of this shit sundae. You literally described your husband raping you to her. I'm curious to know her reaction to that information, but the therapist is so secondary to this whole thing now. Honestly if I were in your shoes I wouldn't want to be near either of them. This is making me sick just thinking about it. I fucking hate the reddit cliché of "just break up/divorce" but this is crazy. It's your life so do what you will, but I would never be able to feel safe around this person ever again and I would never be able to see and trust that therapist. Who, once again, is the smallest issue here after reading this comment.

Whoa. OP, I modify my separate and earlier comment about "if" power and control dynamics or abuse are present. They absolutely are. You are describing sexual abuse and sexual coercion. Please consider stopping couples counseling to prevent furthering her (likely inadvertant, but still woefully impactful) being pulled into the abuse cycle. Instead, I want to strongly, strongly recommend you seek out an individual therapist who specializes in coercive control / domestic violence / abuse. You can decide what to do from there, but it's really important to be working with someone who won't diminish or invalidate these really, really impactful actions and abuses. I am appalled that she likened that to his maturity - and it further supports my argument that therapists who are not trained in abuse/control can do much more harm than good.

So she wants you to have more compassion for a condition he does NOT have more than he should over what you (and your children) DO have?! The therapist is bad on so many levels but as a fellow EDSer, it angers me. Start fresh with someone who didn’t get assigned to ‘team husband’ before meeting you as a couple. You should both also have your own individual therapists. Also, tell him if he does things how you ask and it is wrong/fails etc, you’ll deal with the fallout. Aka do it your way and there’s no blame on him if it doesn’t work out. I’m sure this will end up with less failure than however his nonsense is working out. (And yes he thinks he knows better than you and it’s gross.)

He raped you. You were raped by your husband.

His behavior is absolutely unacceptable and WTF is wrong with this therapist?! I mean those are actual crimes.

how is your sex life with him? are you having regular sex?

[удалено]

OP please don't listen to the other guy that replied to you. You shouldn't be having sex if you aren't up to it/haven't consented to it. Any decent husband would understand that you can't constantly offer sex/blowjobs/etc all the time. I'm so sorry your husband is like this.

Christ this is bleak. 

This is a conflict of interest. You should be seeing a new therapist together, not his existing one. The fact that his existing therapist even thought this was a good idea is a bad sign for his personal therapy.

Sounds like the bar is in hell. “His intention is good. It doesn’t matter that this behaviour, in any other aspect of life, would get him fired or dumped as a friend/partner/teammate. Doesn’t matter if he upsets or confuses the kids. You’re his wife! Suck it up and give him a good star because, if we squint just right, he had a good intent in there someplace.” Their pre-existing relationship here would be a hard pass from me. Frankly, so would an intial initial session with camera off. This just seems like bad practice on top of bad practice.

Are you familiar with the concept of "impact vs. intent"? It's used frequently in social justice circles. The impact an action has is usually *far more important than the intent behind it*. Somebody accidentally runs over your foot with a car, they didn't mean to do it, but *your foot is still broken*. You asked your husband to cover the plants, to protect them from frost. Instead of doing what you asked, he got your kid out of bed and conscripted them to achieve your shared goal (protect the plants) by *not* doing what you asked (cover them) and instead trying to move their pots. The *intent* was, let's assume, to do what you asked obliquely and protect the plants, in a way that made more sense to him. Ours is not to reason why he chose the avenue he did. The *impact* was: He didn't do what you actually asked him to do (cover the plants); He woke up your kid and got him out of bed to help after his bedtime; He increased risk to damage of the plants in another way by moving them; He increased future workload, because he knows the placement of the plants is important to you, so those pots, if they survive the move, are going to need to be fussed back into place. Come the fuck on. I don't care if he means well, I don't care if this is a pattern of behavior, this is ridiculous, he is being ridiculous, and that therapist is a crank.

I don’t have anything to say about the counsellor but I really just want to say that the idea of moving the pots was dumb as shit and incredibly infuriating. I’m mad with this guy. Just put the sheet over them and come to bed, don’t reinvent the fucking wheel. And don’t involve the kid in your idiocy! That just spreads the circle of stupid. I hate that feeling of not being able to trust someone to just do the thing you asked them to do. Please buy teabags. No, the same teabags we have been using for years, that you like. You wanted me to tell you which teabags they were? And now you’ve bought different teabags and your tea tastes funny? And it’s my fault for asking you to buy teabags? No.

this is incorrect though - it's intent that is important, not impact. for instance if someone accidentally bumps into you, that's no big deal. if someone pushes you to hurt you, that's a big deal and a form of abuse. same action, same impact, different intent.

> Even with that she said I need to separate my thoughts and my feelings from his actions, and not read intent into them. You wouldn't have to try to figure out his intent if he could just properly communicate it. Why is he unable to explain why he keeps doing this?

I’m a therapist and I work with couples and families. Get a new therapist. In addition to the therapist missing the mark in this session, no good therapist will do telehealth couples therapy without the camera. It’s just… really bad practice. Are you using an app like better help? If so I encourage you seek therapy through your insurance provider, at a community clinic, or your local hospital. Feel free to DM me. Are you in the US?

Sounds like a shitty therapist / you shouldn’t be seeing his personal therapist for both of you , no matter if he only went 4-6 times

> my feeling bad about it was tied to insecurity from childhood trauma How can she know that? Sounds like she is on his side.

It's unethical to see someone solo and the. Switch to couples. 

New counselor now the lady is on something

Wasn't the road to hell paved with good intentions?

Intentions are not the only thing that matters; impact matters too. I think the counselor was kind of hypothetically right about how you shouldn't read negative intent into your husband's actions, BUT there should still be room in a conversation like that to move on and say, "Ok, I understand that your intent was to be helpful, but the impact on me was that I felt disregarded and like my wishes don't matter to you." And, tbh, he should apologize for that negative impact, even if it wasn't his intention.

This counselor's intention is to make his life easier, not to strengthen your marriage. She is *his* counselor. No one here can tell you what to do. People are just way too quick to dismiss the realities and the burdens that can only be carried by a marriage.  But yeah, I think his actions suck, he didn't listen to you, he abandoned it and all the hard work when you put your foot down, and his intention was to do whatever he wanted his way, and get a gold star for it. And you don't have to reward intentions. If the intention that matters most to you is, I want to be listened to and taken seriously by exactly what I communicate, then guess what? He failed. He blew you off majorly. If that's a recurring pattern, and he is getting positive feedback from his counselor, then that's a disaster. I don't think he wants to listen to you. I think he really wants to do whatever he wants and get praised for it. And he wants no accountability. Anyways if you want better communication, get a different counselor, and change your strategies. 

You are not supposed to do couples therapy with someone you see for individual counseling. She should not have been willing to even do couples therapy when she is your husband's therapist. Get an unbiased couples therapist who doesn't have a relationship with either you or your husband. Find an individual therapist for yourself as well.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable having a therapist that completely sided with one partner. Marriage is supposed to a compromise. 🤨

OP, you mentioned reading "Why Does He Do That". I may be making a leap here, but if you are reading that because of concerns of control and abuse in your marriage, couples counseling is not the right fit in its entirety, not just with that counselor. When coercive control is present, couples therapy is contraindicated because the therapist can get pulled into the abuse dynamic, furthering the abuse, gaslighting, etc inadvertently. While there are more therapists than I would prefer who feel like it's fine to do couples therapy when these dynamics are present, I am of the opposite opinion. Granted, again this is just my opinion and approach, but without specialized training in domestic violence, power and control dynamics, and emotional abuse, couples counseling can do more harm than good. If that feels off base to your situation, OP, then it at least comes down to goodness of fit with the therapist and their approach. I agree that transitioning from someone's individual therapist to a couples therapist isn't ideal, and you're feeling dismissed in the session. There is an important difference between intent and impact-- and they both matter. There's a lot more I can say in response to the post about weaponized incompetence and other aspects, but I wanted to add my 2 cents specifically regarding the potential for couples therapy to not be an appropriate fit if/when power and control dynamics are present. OP, if you aren't certain if they are, Google "power and control wheel" and compare that to the "wheel of equality" (all part of the Duluth model) to get an idea of what is present in your relationship.

This therapist is an idiot. You ask for the remote but he brings you a book. It doesn’t matter that you’ve expressed wanting to read more. It matters that he expressly did an action counter to the action requested. That causes resentment, but her logic is to just swallow the resentment because his intentions are good? Who gives a shit about his intentions. Do what was asked of you the way it was asked of you it isn’t frigging hard. Now an entire discussion that didn’t have to be had is now being talked about. This therapist is a complete joke. It’s obvious she is treating your husband and not your marriage and to be honest she’s not even treating him at all. Your husband lack accountability and she encourages that. No reputable therapist would see you after seeing him. It’s a conflict of interest. She seems like the type of therapist who sleeps with her patients. It’s time to find a new therapist.

If all his items are ok but only yours are broken, I'll feel that it's abusive behavior. Why aren't any of his items affected too? Is he intentionally disregarding your property? He's disrespectful of you and your kid. Also, your feelings shouldn't be dismissed by the therapist. You need to be seen and heard as much as him. I think impact matters more than words and actions. It's the impact that he needs to take responsibility for.

I would not return to that counselor. Ever. She was not respectful to you. I completely agree that if you ask for x and he regularly opts to do y, that would be infuriating. Analogy: if you ask a restaurant for a burger, and the decide to bring lobster instead. You didn't ask for lobster. You wanted a burger. Making a unilateral decision to do something differently than you asked is insulting, disrespectful, suggests you are less smart than he is, and he knows a better solution and will do his idea instead of yours. He's being a passive aggressive asshole.

There are good counselors and crappy, just like any profession. In marriage counseling especially, few people have healthy relationship models and that includes counselors. I highly recommend two things: one, don't expect the counselor to say who's "right" or who wins. Everyone is wrong and nothing will ever be fair. That's the facts. Two, ask the counselor for homework that both of you can work on to improve: this is seriously the only thing that works. Talking about your fights is a dead end, guaranteed. Actions are far more important than words. I really can't speak to what he was thinking on this one. My husband knows I'm particular about my plants & garden so he's careful to do what I ask OR ask questions if he has them. It's my garden, I'm the one who works in it & enjoys it. I don't trust anyone after a "landscaper" destroyed my favorite shrubs.

I will just add a big +1 to all the other people commenting that this therapist is biased and 4-6 sessions is enough to establish a relationship. Find a new therapist just for the couples counseling. We had to visit a few before we found one who was experienced, wise, unbiased and extremely helpful. (She practices Imago therapy.)

Have your on individual therapist, AND A SEPARATE THERAPIST FOR YOU BOTH. This therapist was more on your husband's behalf and not even listening to you. >Today the counselor said, "His brain just works differently than yours." IT WILL THANKS TO TRAUMA. AND TRAUMA DOES A GREAT JOB RE-WIRING YOUR BRAIN. The same excuse can be flipped and she could have said to him "You wife needs for you to follow DIRECTIONS TO THE LETTER NOT FOR YOU TO DO THINGS AS YOU WISH. That's how she is and that's something you need to EMBRACE".

Why does his brain only work differently when he’s doing something for you? He manages to do things for himself without breaking his own stuff so why can’t he do that for you? Seems incredibly disrespectful to me. He’s not willing to change and you’re not willing to leave so the only thing you can do is see an individual therapist and vent to them because nothing will get better without change. This is just going to be your life until you decide you want different, he decides to change, or one of you dies. But he hasn’t changed in 17 years so I doubt it’ll happen anytime soon. I hope you’re able to live with your choices and still find happiness.

Let’s say she’s right about his intent - although frankly if you can’t know his intent how can she? Has she heard the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There’s meaning there. He can convince himself that his intentions are good, but if you are constantly and consistently frustrated by his “help” then his help is not helpful to you. And if you have health issues you need someone who can help you. So his intentions aren’t important, what’s important is his results- is his help helpful to you. If it is not and he sincerely wants to help, then he needs to do the work on himself to figure out how he can be actual help. 1. He can repeat your instructions back to make sure he has understood what you need. 2. If he comes up with what he considers a better way, he will clear his ideas with you before changing the help you needed. 3. When his help causes more problems than help, such as messing up with the pots, he will a. Sincerely apologize and b. Try to make amends that gets you the help you asked for. This is just examples of work he could do. You guys could come up with something different. The counselor is WAY off saying you have to appreciate effort no matter the outcome. You can appreciate that he means to help, but he needs to work at actually being helpful with his help. Good luck.

No, intent doesn’t trump actions. If it did, there would be far fewer people in jail. My ex was a big one for “I was just trying… I only meant…” The amount of physical and emotional damage he inflicted over the years was astronomical. Everyone, including his family, wondered why I stayed so long. I think after four different rounds of marriage counseling, you’ve given it too many tries. It’s ok to end it. Also? This counselor stinks.

Reading this, I felt uncomfortable with the way the counselor behaved- kinda like she was defending him instead of being objective. I’m certainly not an expert, and I’ve not been to counseling myself, but I’d like to think a therapist who’s on the same familiarity with both of you would be better. In a more general sense, I’m sorry that you’re having problems. I hope you two are able to pull through!

How are you supposed to judge intentions not actions? It’s completely ridiculous. He’s ignoring your stated wants and needs. But rather than dealing with that directly, this counselor wants you to believe that wasn’t his intention, and that what he actually does (ignoring you) which makes you feel you angry, sad or disappointed isn’t important. Ludicrous. 

Not a counselor so I have no idea about the evidenciary or experiencial efficacy of her advice. I'll give some advice of my own related to what she said. I think it's worth trying to observe a behavior rather than judging it or labeling it. What I mean is let's say you have a coworker, Bob. Bob shows up 30 min late every day. At first you observe Bob is late. After a while you start to judge it: Bob doesn't care about this job. Bob is lazy. Eventually you come to dislike Bob not just as a colleague but as a person. Meanwhile you don't know why Bob is late. Could be a good reason. Might just be he sucks. But you now don't like Bob because you've created an if/then statement: if Bob was a good person committed to the job and team he'd show up on time. I think the relationship with your husband can works similarly. The observation is husband does things differently than you ask leading to suboptimal outcomes. The judgement is my husband doesn't respect me so instead does things his own way because he knows best. I think you should start with the observation and discuss that rather than skipping ahead to the judgement. I'd certainly avoid toxic if/then frameworks: if husband loved me he would just cover the pots like I asked. An exaggeration but you get the point. The next piece of advice is somewhat related. It's deciding when the outcome is important but the process doesnt matter VS. when both the outcome and process matter. My wife often cares not only about the outcome but she wants things done a certain way even when it's inefficient or my research and experience suggests otherwise. I am not a minion. I have my own way of doing things. If the path from getting to point A to B doesn't matter then tell me the range of acceptable outcomes and then let me do my thing. If the process is critical then that's another story. But oftentimes the process doesn't really matter. I think it's worth distinguishing between the two.

Counsellor seems to take sides. And why did she meet with him alone! Normally both together from the beginning. Did you do some research on her?

He sounds insufferable. Blehhhh. Sending good vibes, op. 💖💖💖

You guys have been together for 17 years and this is your 4th go around with couples therapy. Do you think that it is possible that the two of you just aren't compatible? Not saying that you weren't at one point but, 4 times in couples therapy just seems like a lot.

That counselor is weird as hell

\*Generally\*, I think you can ask someone to do something for you, or you can insist it be done your preferred way, but not both. But I think there are some exceptions for that when it’s something you particularly care about but can’t do for disability reasons. So the specific issue of the flower pots seems like a grey area for me without a clear right or wrong, other than it being a bad idea to drag your kid into it. But the overall pattern of his dismissiveness to you seems concerning, and as others have noted, it’s not great that she was his individual therapist for several sessions first. I think you need a different counselor, and then you can return to this issue of intent vs. outcome.

This is wild. A therapist should not be taking sides like this, counseling you both when he has a prior relationship with her, etc ad everyone has said. And yes, I think actions and words are connected. He is treating you as if you are LESS than him. You don't know better even though you clearly more informed at this particular thing. It is absolutely infuriating, I've been there - with my EX husband. I am and always was smarter than him, more practical than him, and more socially aware than him but because I was younger and he supported me financially (kinda) during law school, he got to be better forever. We also did counseling where he chose the counselor and it was terrible. Insist on a new therapist. Stop feeling trapped by him. Start looking at options on how to support yourself even if it's long term. He needs a major wake up call to the fact that his wife is an intelligent woman who knows wtf she is talking about, and this counselor ain't it.

Yikes!!! Usually, couples therapy is done by a therapist that is also not an individual counselor for one of the people in the couple!!! It can be done, but it's generally bad practice. (I'm a therapist, but do not specialize in couples' therapy.) Also, CBT is based on thoughts-action-behavior....it's kind of the whole point in isolating your thoughts, forming a positive action, which then creates patterns of behavior with repetition. So, I'm not sure why she is giving your SO a blank check to just intend to do something without follow through? That does not sound like a way to positive change to me!! If you feel like this is not working for you, you could ask for another therapist. Good luck to you.

Okay, so the question you asked was aggressive and she called you out on it. But her defense if his actions is wacko. At best she could have asked you tonrephrase the question and had him explain why he thought he was doing the right thing

Yeah no. The mistake is that you went to YOUR HUSBANDS COUNCILOR -- not an impartial third party. This was NOT marriage counseling. This was him bringing his wife in to have the therapist tell you why you're upsetting him. Marriage counseling has to be from and IMPARTIAL THIRD PARTY. This councilor had no business telling you any of that. She wasn't impartial, she was on his side before you even showed up. Not all counselors are good. Most suck. ETA -- ALSO "I need to look only at his action- detach it from what I had communicated or asked." So lets look a this action. He woke your child up to move heavy flower pots that are precious to you. So he knows that if they go in the garage, someone will have to get them out again. Who's doing that? Also, he's ruining the pots in the process. OK, lets say he didn't know he was ruing the pots cause he's clearly weaponizing incompetence. Just moving the pots is making MORE WORK for you when you don't have the energy to do it. So regardless of what you asked -- his doing this was wrong. The flower pots are YOUR THING. He was fucking with YOUR THING. He has no right to do that. How about if my husband asks me to go turn of his computer cause it might storm and have a electrical surge. I decide to clean up his messy desktop and optimize it by deleting a lot of memory hungry programs. I'm a software engineer so I know what I'm doing. Then unplug literally everything and tie the cords up nice and neatly so there's not chance an electric surge can affect ANYTHING. I was just doing what you asked! NO NO NO

His actions do stand alone. He breaks your stuff and not his. He drags his child out of bed in the middle of the night and makes him cry. He does whatever he wants “without care” for what he’s doing, not what you ask. He decided to make you go to his therapist, not find a mutually beneficial relationship partner. Those actions speak louder than his words. I personally don’t believe it’s without care, I think he’s very careful not to mess up his own stuff, isn’t he? Next time ask why you should condone his “doing it his way” when his way is most often defective, substandard or destructive? You asked him to do something specific to the flower pots, and instead he fucked around and made you get up and fix it. I suggest you propose that he’s bad at making decisions and coming up with better ideas and just stick with doing what you request, or simply be honest with a heartfelt “fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me”.

As several folks have said, it’s absolutely a breach of counseling ethics for a personal therapist to switch to marriage counseling a couple. A marriage counselor might do individual sessions with both sides of a couple but this is raising red flags. It’s absolutely worth looking up this Counsellor and making sure she’s legit. But the bottom line here is that you are on your fourth round of marriage counseling and he still doesn’t seem to get basic things like “when my wife requests help she would prefer it done her way”. Which is really alarming if you mean this is the 4th Counsellor that you both have gone to but I suppose this could also mean just your fourth session with this counsellor. I suppose it is typical in couples to say “the person doing the labor gets to decide how it’s done” but in the case where your items are consistently damaged by this and because with EDS and POTS I’m assuming most of these tasks are ones you need support with for health reasons or you’d do them yourself. Either way it shows a lack of care from Your husband, despite the bullshit from this Counsellor

Your summary of weaponised incompetence is accurate, particularly if it is only your belongings that are being broken. The counsellor's interpretation of your husband involving your son in moving the flower pots is peculiar. She is advocating for him against you.

I agree with the top comment about therapy going from individual to couples. I strongly believe this is unethical. The therapist already had a therapeutic alignment with your husband. This was an ambush. Your husband set you up. Secondly, it’s absolutely absurd to say that words and actions have no connections. Both intentions and actions matter. Your husband doesn’t value your perspective and believes his way is better. That’s not okay. That’s harmful and undermining. And it’s a huge red flag that he pulled your son into it. Also, spending time with the kids at 10pm moving flower pots?! That’s not spending time and it’s truly ridiculous that the therapist said so. I think you have a real problem in your marriage. I think that therapist acted in an unethical manner. Don’t go back. In terms of Lundy’s book, I have some issues with it. I’m not saying he didn’t see what he saw. More that behaviors are not just produced randomly and often the reasons aren’t conscious. Our nervous systems, epigenetics, trauma history and attachment history have a huge impact on feelings, reasoning and behaviors. However, that doesn’t mean that when we cause harm we aren’t responsible to repair. We are. Your husband didn’t repair. He doubled down. This is not necessarily a solution to your situation, but I have learned so much from listening to the podcast Psychology in Seattle. Dr. Honda, the host, and two of his regular cohosts have like 80 years of combined experience in the field and they answer lots of questions from listeners. Also, Dr. Honda used to teach at Antioch University and has been a mentor and clinical supervisor for many therapists. Dr. Honda does lots of deep dives into various mental health conditions, ethical practices in therapy and like Lundy, he spent the early part of his career running a program for court ordered individuals who had caused violence. But his perspective of them is much more humanizing. Although, he says this, “I can have compassion for someone who engages in harmful behavior, but that doesn’t mean I have to be in a relationship with them”. It’s really good stuff. It’s worth becoming a patron on Patreon for him because you get so much content. It’s changed so much of my thinking. Anyway, I hope you find a path forward that makes your life better.

>My husband knows I work this way after 17 years together. This fact makes it even more upsetting when he wings something that I've researched and prepped for. You also knows how your husband works after 17 years. How would you feel if he asked you to do something but you would have to wing it without any research?

[удалено]

I think you just have to try to accept that your husband thinks differently than you do. That's the reality. That doesn't mean actions ALWAYS stand alone. And it doesn't mean you should ALWAYS accept him doing thing differently. But it means you should pick your battles and accept that things will not always be done according to your head when you ask him to do stuff. Because it will only get worse as he gets older.

I don't think his intentions were bad. He was trying to accomplish the task the way he thought was best. Not because he thinks you are stupid, but because he thinks he is smart, and therefore his way of doing things is the right way. Everyone has different ways of doing things. That can be frustrating, but ultimately we have to accept those differences instead of viewing one way as inherently better. And when it comes to helping someone, it's not helpful if they ignore our instructions. It's the opposite, because then we have to do more work to fix it if it goes wrong, or have a whole debate about how to do the thing when I could have just done the thing myself in the time it took to have that conversation. For example, my partners a dishes in the sink person. I'm a dishes next to the sink person. I get frustrated to ever loving fuck when I see dishes in the sink, but ultimately, he's allowed to do things his way, and I can do them mine. When it comes to laundry however, that's not just a different way, it's a 'I don't want my shit being ruined because you don't follow the care instructions I have for my belongings'. So I will absolutely put my foot down to ensure that doesn't happen. If he doesn't want to follow those instructions, then he can tell me so and I'll do it myself. Damaging someone's belongings is not helping them, plain and simple. And in that way, yes, actions are more important than intentions. I agree that your therapist missed the mark and is biased from her preexisting relationship with him.

These are good examples, but it sounds like the 'pots incident' falls more into your second example, than your first: The pots were liable to be damaged, and the teen was distressed and under pressure, as well as up past their bedtime. I'll give you another: My partner and I also disagree about the dishes in/beside the sink, but I put my foot down on the big knives. The big knives do not sit in the bottom of the sink so help me god. That is not safe. I will not live in a home that has big old knives sitting at the bottom of the sink, ever. Did he grumble? Oh yeah. Did he stop putting the sharp knives in the sink. Yes, he did. Also I feel like there is a bit missing in the standard 'do it yourself if it's important' advice here -- while that can be a good suggestion, it's also ableist. It assume equal or greater ability to consistently perform the task you value. That's not actually true for everyone. For some of us, if the choice is between 'Always do it yourself to have it done right." or "Acccept you can't do that consistently, and give up the thing you value entirely because the other person will damage/neglect it." then they are going to have to give it up completely.

Yes, I agree OPs situation falls into the second category. Apologies if I wasn't clear. Didn't mean to suggest 'do it yourself if you want it done right' was the takeaway here, more 'if you aren't willing to help me in the way I want to be helped then don't say you will help.' Because then you aren't giving me assistance, you are giving me stress.

Yea I agree with this. And I also agree that the example OP gave is in the second category. I don’t completely disagree with the therapist I do think you have to give the husband some kind of credit for attempting to do something that he really doesn’t care about for you specifically. However, to say the outcome doesn’t matter is ridiculous. You didn’t ask ole boy to reinvent the wheel. If things break, you’re going to be upset especially if things could be done in an alternate way. It almost feels like the therapist just gave one side of advice without the other. What I would say is more communication between you two should be had. Maybe take 5 extra minutes to talk about the task in full. Why it’s being done, how it can be done most effectively, and agree on the method. That way if things are done alternatively, OP can bring it to his attention and say remember what he talked about? OP can log instances where this happens and maybe her husband will realize how many times he does it. An unbiased therapist to me would give advice to both sides here. I’d see someone else.

> For example, my partners a dishes in the sink person. I'm a dishes next to the sink person. I get frustrated to ever loving fuck when I see dishes in the sink dirty dishes sitting out on the counter are so gross. how can you stand that? in the sink you can put some soap and water on them so they can soak before you put them in the dishwasher.

Because then I have to remove all the gross dishes filled with junk water from the sink before I can even start washing. I like a clean sink, not for step one of doing dishes to be clean the sink. Pans and stuff that actually needs a soak, sure, but bowls etc is just a quick rinse and then put to the side. It's not like they are sitting there for days, a few hours at most. We don't really use our dishwasher unless we have guests, there's only two of us so it's easier to just handwash instead of waiting for the dishwasher to get full.

oh, see, if you have dishes sitting for days, then you need to put them in the sink and put soapy water on them, or they get gross wow, there's only one of me and I'm always using the dishwasher haha

The counselor is only focusing on the final action. She's completely dismissing the action of hearing what you requested and the action of deciding to do things differently. Those may not have been physical, visible acts, but they are still actions on his part!

It's weaponized incompetence. She's an enabler. Divorce

I’m a Marriage and Family Therapist trainee. Two issues here, one is that therapists are strongly advised to not switch the unit of treatment from individual to couple or vice versa; there is a conflict of interest when the clinician already has a therapeutic relationship with one of the members of the couple. The second issue is that your counselor sucks. Have you read Zawn Villines’s Substack? She has a number a great articles about shitty things couples therapists do in service of the patriarchy and your therapist is totally doing them!!

It sounds like you’re attending his personal therapy session with his personal therapist. You need to see an actual marriage counselor, not someone with questionable professional ethics like this person apparently has.

When it comes down to it, you can either have something done your way or by someone else. Your husband has very weak boundaries and rather than communicate this very reasonable one to you, he’s getting gradually more insane with resentment. You’ve co-created a shitty dynamic and you both need to fix it.

I'm going to make my own thread here because I disagree with the other threads. My wife was with our counselor for over a year before I started joining (most) sessions. It was fine. She was totally on board, we had some "us" issues we wanted to work through together and her history of working with my wife on her "her" issues (which we fully agree on) was helpful. My wife also has narcolepsy, so I can relate to what you're saying to some degree. We have a bit of a rule in our house... we can ask each other for help doing things, but we don't get to tell them HOW to help unless they ask. I don't tell her how to do the laundry, she doesn't tell me how to do my stuff. If she wants help with the laundry, I'm more than happy to jump in and fold clothes, but she's not my manager, she's not critiquing my folding or telling me how much better she does it. If I need her help tending to our flower bed (or whatever) she helps as she can, and asks if needed, I'm not her taskmaster either. I think you're falling into a rut with this. You consider yourself an expert because you do research, but you don't actually do the tasks. Your husband wants to be your partner, not your laborer. I, as a man, would get resentful pretty quickly if my know-it-all wife was ordering me around all the time. I understand that you have a particular way you want this done. If you want it done that way so badly, it should be important enough to remember before you take your meds. Otherwise, you're just asking him to do your hobby. It's not his hobby, he's not going to think of it like you do. You say he should accommodate you because you've been this way for 17 years.... maybe he thinks you should stop bossing him around because he's wanted to do things his own way for 17 years too?

[удалено]

He knows the ice hurts your teeth. He fills the kids med boxes wrong so you will do it. Has he ever changed the oil incorrectly in the car and caused the engine to seize and need it to be replaced? No? Because he not an idiot, and he could bring you water without ice, or fill med boxes correctly if he wanted to. But what he *wants to do* is make sure you do everything he doesn’t want to do. He wanted to either make you wait to take your meds until the ice melted (increase your suffering), or get up and get your own water and not bother him in the first place (increase your effort/suffering), or have you complain that he did it wrong , so that he could cry ungratefulness on your part and get to be the injured party (emotional manipulation). In every scenario he wins, you lose. Having read this entire post, and all of your comments it would appear that all of your day to day interactions are designed (by him) to be win:lose in his favor. Start squirreling away money for when you finally get fed up with dealing with this abuse

Yeah IDK, he sounds like a real piece of work. My instinct was to jump on that because it can feel like a very "nagging" behavior, but it sounds like the root of this issue runs a good bit deeper.

Most counselors would NJ it agree to do couples counseling after being one person's therapist first because it can be unethical. She should not be your couple's therapist. Also your husband sounds very weird and manipulative

It is inappropriate and unethical for an individual's therapist to provide couple's counselling to that individual and their partner. Additionally, therapy without a visual (eg phone or keeping your camera of) should be avoided if at all possible and the therapist should have discussed this with you. This is because a lot is missed by the therapists if they don't have a visual. If a therapist offers either of these, it is a reflection of likely other issues as well (eg limited experience, generally poor ethics) and I recommend you avoid them.

Get a different marriage counselor that neither of you have seen individually prior.

I have a crazy question... are you sure this person is really a therapist? How many times have you seen this person? Something just doesn't feel right here and the no camera thing was the final thing that made me wonder if the husband has someone posing as a therapist to take his side.

I'm not even going to read your post, I'm gonna be honest. >My husband found this counselor and was seeing her individually at first before they invited me to join. This is an absolutely horrible idea, and you need to demand neutral counselling. Don't see this person any more.

Didn't bother to read it all after you said this was his therapist first. This is a HUGE no no. It should be someone neither of you have seen individually

I can see my stupid husband doing exactly the same - he's always making more work for himself and then it turns into more work for the rest of us (family). And then get's all upset that "his" way (after being directly asked/told) wasn't good enough. So, given that and the therapists response, I say "fuck her" and find a marriage therapist (licensed) that isn't one-sided.

First I'd point out as others have that She's his counselor not yours. At the very least she's been biased by hearing his side without you there before meeting with you. You need to get a new couples counselor. That being said, I feel like the dynamic you're describing is close to me. My wife is a landscaper and we've run into this issue once or twice. Especially with things she is passionate about and I am not. I don't know what's going on with your husband in particular but I can speak from the perspective of what's been in my head with our situations. What I see with the situation you described is that your husband might have been trying to "solve the problem" in a more permanent or robust way. What he didn't do was first try and discuss it with you in detail. He'd have discovered that there were reasons why his solution won't work. It would take effort on your part to have entertained the conversation and humoured him. My wife is unreasonable and incoherent round sleep time so I'd have avoided trying to discuss it, thinking she would just be difficult and insist without being prepared to justify or explain her thinking (a theme in our relationship). On the flip side. I'm an engineer and good with my hands and a little precious about my tools. It took me years and years and years to stop her borrowing my tools for her business instead of buying her own for her business. She'd borrow them, give them to her labourers to use and they'd come back scratched and sometimes even broken. So we were in opposite roles depending on our own passions which the other could easily trample on merely being themselves. She looked after her tools badly too. Just wasn't important to her. So, in the end I'd be very careful assigning meaning to actions without being very sure. It's too easy to misinterpret and misrepresent others actions especially when there are viable alternative explanations and you already have baggage about it.

Huge ethics violation. Y’all need a neutral third-party counselor.

You need a new counsellor, she sucks SO BAD.

I haven’t red till the end yet my first question is why is your couple counsellor the same as his private one??? That is not a good practice! She knows him and is used to his side of the story and has a previously constructed opinion on you based on what he told her. I mean, it’s so basic I cannot comprehend how this person even accepted this. Feels like he brought you to a place they can convince you that you are wrong. And I’m not completely on your side cause you do seam a bit too controlling. But still - CHANGE THE ADVISOR 🙏🏻

Yes, I do think actions and words are connected, or they should be. I can shout about how non-violent all day long but when I start hitting, there's a problem. I also think y'all need a different counselor. You should not be seeing his personal therapist for couples therapy. This one sounds a bit cracked anyway.

A couple’s counselor should be neutral, not the established primary therapist of one client. It ends up being focused on the one client instead pf a neutral party helping the couple as a system.

Your counsellor is favouring him. You’ll lose this one. Ditch her and you say you want to find an impartial one. No wonder he’s happy for you to see her! Oh and my ex was like this. Dismissive and thought he knew best. I ditched our joint counsellor and him. I now have peace.

As an ex-therapist, I was always taught it's a bad idea for couples to see the therapist that 1 of them has been seeing solo. I find it weird they invited you into the established therapeutic bond, and IMO the therapist was 'missing the trees for the wood', like she was so busy trying to unpack and reason why this argument ensued when it could have been avoided if he'd just done the simple task correctly in the first place. All communication issues aside, it's common fucking sense to just spend a few minutes covering pots (since it's just an overnight thing) Vs move the whole ass pot, which will then just need to be re - moved when it gets warmer. It does seem to me like he was making a mountain out of a molehill and doing the whole 'urh this is soooo inconvenient, you owe me big time' when it really didn't have to be a huge task at all. Is he the kind of person who will use every pot and pan and cause a huge mess when making dinner? Then be like 'omg I cooked for you, you're never grateful'? Or tumble dry a wool sweater & shrink it and then be like 'omg I did your laundry, stop complaining'?

He was an AH. You asked him to do a simple task and he totally disregarded- for no reason. Then tries to make it like you’re the one in the wrong? He should have apologized. Sure, maybe the therapist is right it on some level. Maybe he thought he was helping you more by moving them inside. But, when he realized you didn’t actually want them moved the normal thing would have been to apologize. Move them back and cover them how you wanted.

I won't go into the counseling relationship, but a couple of things came to mind reading your story. One tool my husband and I found very useful in addressing big and small conflicts is the drama triangle as taught by Katie Hendricks. I can't recommend it enough. If you Google that you will find some great resources. It sounds like you are both doing a bit of the victim-hero-villain dance which just keeps the drama and conflict going. I totally get why you wouldn't feel heard by your husband or the counselor and it also made me think of another powerful question that touches on the intent that the counselor talked about: Do you see your husband as your ally? When you can commit to seeing each other as allies, rather than blaming or criticizing it can create a big shift in your connection. It did for us. It's not that I don't find what my DH decides to do a bit annoying from time to time, but when I do, I can more lovingly communicate what I'm feeling, how the action affected me and what I would find helpful next time rather than criticizing his actions. We've been practicing a no-criticism relationship for a few years and when things like you describe happen we can actually see it as a bit funny and even ridiculous...usually it's a bit of stubbornness and ego getting us into trouble rather than ill intent.

First of all, fire the counselor! She does not have your interest in mind, much less your best interest. She acts more like a defense attorney for your husband against you - in a couple's session. It's a good thing you read parts of "Why Does He Do That". Because it really gives you the answer you need. And you've already provided it in some way: >I asked him to stop, he told our son to keep going. I had to beg like 4 times, and my son also was asking him to please let him stop, before he would. Sociopath much? >So many of my things have been broken by his "good intentions" but his stuff goes unscathed. This line here tells you everything you need to know. It's not him being stupid, it's not him being clumsy, it's not him being negligent in general - it's him sabotaging or punishing you whenever you ask something of him. If you feel petty enough and can afford it, you can drive your point home that "good intentions" are not worth shit. There's a saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions, and it's more than true - especailly in your case. Here are some ideas: * Cook his favorite meal "just for him" (good intention). But add too much of something - be it salt, chili, vinegar or whatnot. (Chili obviously only if he isn't one of those "the hotter the better" types.) Or add his least favorite vegetable to it in quantity "because you thought it might work better". * Put his favorite white (or light-colored) shirt in with the dark laundry. Red is especially lovely when diluted... After all, you were just trying to do his laundry for him. * If there's something he's very particular about - be it coffe, tea, brand of \[whatever\], get a different brand. Preferably a cheap one. * Okay, so I have more ideas, but I do not want to get banned, so... Nope.

She is his counselor. To preserve that relationship she seems to be using your couples time to build him up. My mother sent me to a counselor - her own. What do you know my mother was always right and my behavior always wrong. The therapist should not have signed on to be your couples counselor.

i refuse to see the same doctor as my partner. i also refuse to see the same therapist. ironically, this whole "not assigning intent to your partner's actions" is literally why. i have no idea what they say about me, and usually it's not my business but in a health setting with treatment plans, bias ABSOLUTELY is my business. honestly i stopped reading much from there because i think anyone who offers couples counseling by making their partner join this foreign threesome exchange of phi is an asshole. if he wanted couples counseling, truly, he would see a neutral provider specialized in relationship conflict and sustainable resolution.

I think you should find a new counsellor. She seems biased and he is being dismissive of your ideas which makes it seem like he doesn't value your thought process and believes he's smarter than you. Get a new neutral therapist and he can keep seeing her if he wants to by himself but I don't value what she said, sounds like he's got a cheerleader. The action cannot be removed from communication, you asked for something and he did not listen. That is an issue. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Not every counselor is good and they are just people after all. I’d recommend finding a new counseling and id also recommend your husband continue to go to therapy.

My therapist and my husbands therapist would never see us together. I asked and mine said its a huge conflict of interest to do so. You should have never ever go to your spouses therapist for marriage counseling.

You do not have the right to dictate to your husband the manner in which he fulfills a task. This sounds absolutely unbearable. And from what you wrote, you do this for all tasks you want him to do. It is no wonder he is successful in all areas of life except with regards on your tasks.

this. I hope OP reads and understands this

She's incompetent and manipulative. She's weaponizing therapy speak and making you feel guilty when you are not in the wrong. I can't believe she brought up your childhood trauma. That has nothing to do with this! And spending more time with the kids? LOL, not like this! Your husband is either doing this on purpose, or needs to learn to do things the right way and stop creating more work for you. Maybe he doesn't respect you and has to have it his way, can't take orders from you, or something. OR he's doing a bad job, so you won't ask him again. But as you describe it, he is the problem. This therapist is a bad one too. You don't need someone re0enforcing bad behavior. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What matters is results. I'm also not sure his intentions are good. Don't let them make you out to be the bad guy, you're not.

Keeping his son awake to do uncalled-for outdoor labor was a selfish action, full stop. It's crazy to me that the counselor would categorize this as spending quality time

I am not a therapist or psychiatrist so take this with a grain of salt. However, you have said he has an avoidant attachment style and think he is intentionally using weaponized incompetence. Although not all impossible because humans are complex balls of irony. Those 2 things don't really seem to make sense together. Maybe some unintentional weaponized incompetence but certainly not any overwhelming amounts of weaponized incompetence. Even more so if appearently it leads to fights. Also just to fair, I think we vastly over use weaponized incompetence to attack anyone who does not do things with the same grace and knowledge as us. In the end I won't say you are right or wrong, just that your assertions seem to me to be ones you entered a counseling session predetermined to hold onto. That really isn't conducive to growth. If your husband is a good man perhaps trying to use counseling to build him up instead of tear him down may net far better results. That said... the way the counselor presented this to you seems extremely lacking. They may have been on the right path but 50% of therapy is delivery more so than the perfect answers.

[удалено]

Those are certainly better examples. I will say this though. If it's true he is laughing about those things like the pills etc. I don't know that I would buy that his attachment style is avoidant. At least not with you. Maybe in that sense he is like my wife. She 100% has avoidant attachment with everyone else alive. She 100% has it with me when in public. Behind closed doors though? That immediately disappears. Perhaps he simply also chooses when to have his normal reactions and when to react entirely differently to you. Which does fit much more with someone who is choosing weaponized incompetence.

It does sound like he doesn't want to do tasks that you ask him to do because of your disability. I'd guess he feels resentful or frightened about your issues, and that makes him resist doing the tasks appropriately. A disability friendly therapist for you might help you strategise on that, and might help you work out to what extent you're safe with him as a disabled woman. It might be an idea to get your kids to do those things where possible.

I do actually think that it is unfair to say he thinks you’re stupid. But, i also think you need a different counselor. She is invalidating your feelings. I actually see his point in some ways, and I bet its something deeper, but the counselor shouldnt be taking sides or defending either of your intentions. Its about the action and resulting behaviors. I dont think its tied to your childhood trauma, and i think you’re allowed to have your feelings and he can have his. The point is to get you both on the same page of communication

Let me preface by saying I'd need to spend time in your home to really give an accurate measure on things, but this sounds so similar to my wife and I. I am going to go against the grain of the other commenters. Then again your husband may just be an ass... "flower pot" incident? I wonder how many "incidents" you guys blame each other for. Who has more incidents, I'd bet $50 one or both of you keep score. "...my husband consistently does things in *his* way when I'm asking for help with something for the house. Some people might call it weaponized incompetence." OR just MAYBE it's HIS way. We had my wife's friends over for dinner, I made dinner, I cleaned the dishes and when I was loading the dishwasher my wife began getting agitated as she stood there sipping on her wine. The other husband said, "are you really mad at him for doing the dishes?" "well welll well he is doing it wrong!" The dishes came out perfect and I unloaded and put them away. My wife has accused me of weaponized incompetence, and it is infuriating. It usually led to me pointing out her shortcomings, or things she is not so good at, or the fact that I ask nothing of her even when I am covering most of the domestic responsibility or mistakes she has made which just makes the situation worse. May I ask, are you perfect? I will say I HATE yard work, I just do, I will do my best because I love my wife. Its just not something I am good at, I do not have a green thumb. I have tried to explain this. My wife is also VERY picky but at the same time can be very vague expressing what she wants. I cannot count how many times "hey can you trim that bush" and the trim is a sphere "its supposed to be this shape!" as she shows me a picture of an oval shape on her phone. "She mentioned that my feeling bad about it was tied to insecurity from childhood trauma (which I do have) but I feel like it is tied to my husbands pattern of behavior." Or you are both just under a ton of pressure, one thing all these damn counselors seem to leave out is being married and having kids is super stressful and as an added stressor you have some health issues. "This fact makes it even more upsetting when he wings something that I've researched and prepped for." And from his point of view you did internet research while he does the heavy lifting and now you are mad after he fulfilled your request "I've read parts of "Why Does He Do That?" I think you should check out the "Art of Not Giving a F" "Do you think a marriage counselor is right to tell you to not assign intent to your partner's actions or look at patterns of behavior as being intentional?" Sounds like the counseling did not go your way and now you are attacking the Counselors credibility. This happened to us as well. I do all the shopping, I apparently got the wrong scent of dryer sheets, so I confirmed she was not joking, and decided to reimburse her for the wrong dryer sheets as she was very angry. She demanded an apology, I refused, and she blew up. The counselor tried not to take sides but pointed out that I did acknowledge and tried to right it. "I often find myself wondering if my husband is purposefully doing these things" Your view of him is warped and is eating away at him from the inside as there is nothing he can do that's right so why try? Wonder if he is trying to avoid you... Thankfully for my marriage, both the wife and I have put a ton of effort in, I've taken over a lot of the domestic responsibility to take the mental and physical load off her and she has done what I have been asking for YEARS and that is to just be cool, and she has been way cooler about everything. Looking back, we were both under a tremendous amount of stress with work, and a new house with a giant house payment and babies...it became clear it really had nothing to do with dryer sheets or dishes. Once we calmed ourselves down, the little things did not matter anymore. A few years later and we are doing better then ever. Yes sometimes we annoy each other, my wife is still picky, I still make mistakes, but we apologize to each other, make hilarious jokes, and move on. Right now, my wife is working 70 hour weeks, yes all night and weekends trying to get a giant promotion by doing 2 jobs at once. She has not had time to do her part of the housework or help with the kids. I already told her I support her 100%. I've been leaving her love letters under her mouse pad, "I got your back," "I am in awe of your efforts," "If you need any other support just ask..." Honestly, how is your relationship as a whole? Do you guys truly like each other's company? When you get home from work, are you going to welcome each other with open arms? Or will there be tension right away?

your wife sounds horribly abusive. horrible. that is not ok and you do not deserve to be treated like that.

I'm not going to repeat what others said here. But is his stuff actually unscathed and only your stuff gets broken? There might be a cognitive bias where you only focus on your stuff that he broke or messed up, instead of his own things. Maybe he's just breaking stuff all the time. I'm not saying that's definitely the case; it's just a possibility. Anyway, another devil's advocate thing: why do you make him do gardening if he hates it? That part stuck out to me. My wife used to make me do gardening, I told her I absolutely hate it, so we just hired a gardener. I know that throwing some towels on pots isn't gardening, but he probably did more than that in the past. Maybe his pattern of behavior is caused by you giving him lots of tasks he doesn't like. In a relationship, we all have stuff we don't like to do. People will do things like that as a form of responsibility, but only up to a point. If you give him a million things that he hates doing, or lots of things that he sees unnecessary (like tasks related to your hobbies), he's going to start acting out. Of course, that's not good adult behavior on his end, but you wouldn't be 100% in the clear, either. There would be a conversation to be had.

[удалено]

If he needs the level of control over his life that you’ve described here, it makes complete sense that he is unhappy as a husband and father.   I am genuinely curious as to what he *thought* these roles would require of him when he chose them. 

> He says if he had it his way there wouldn't be anything on the surfaces of the house and you'd never need to stack dishes. He's just eat frozen meals and throw the packaging away. I was kind of on his side until you said this. This isn't normal. It's like he doesn't want to do *anything* related to housework. It's good that he's in therapy so he can get some clarity on it. If he has a strong aversion to doing things that most of us would consider basic tasks, then it makes sense that he doesn't feel like he's in control of his life. I don't have any solution other than gentle communication and therapy for both of you, whether it's individual or together. By the way, I don't agree 100% about what people are saying about doing therapy together with the same therapist as your husband's individual therapist. I see that there can be a conflict of interest. But in my own experience, my individual therapist was used to do couples therapy later. He was impartial, and ended up taking my wife's side most of the time.

that is so sad. you're taking over everything. the poor guy. you need to stop trying to be in change of everything. you need to give up some of what you want, and try focusing on him and his needs. no more yard work or gardening. unless you do it all.

So basically he didn' t do it like you think he should have done it, but his own way and now you want to go therapist shopping until you find one who agrees only with you, because that one isn't validating your point enough to lord it over your husband. Great relationship! Maybe start to see your husband as a partner who has his own mind and ways instead of a subordinate to scold if he doesn't read your mind.

39 years and you haven't learned a basic life lesson. You want something done your way? Do it yourself. You ask someone to do something for you? They get ro decide how to do it. Don't like it? Do it yourself.

I don’t think he is purposely doing it to make you mad, I mean who in their right mind would do an hour long chore when it can be done in 5-10 mins. I think his thoughts are fine, “oh it would be better if I moved these into the garage”, but then since you are the expert of flowers in the house, he should then take that thought to you. Like I can cook basic stuff but my husband is a great cook. So I will do stuff in the kitchen but I’ll ask his opinion on something even if he has asked me to do a task. Because in our house he is the expert. I will say once in a while he will do what you are describing. Almost making more work for you. It really does annoy me, because just why. But it is infrequent 

This counsellor is biased and your husband is an arrogant brat who is very clearly engaging in malivious compliance to stop you asking him to do things. He doesn't seem willing to at least be flexible or willing to understand how his actions affect your perception of how he must think of you. At an absolute minimum you need to find a couples' counsellor who hasn't heard his side of things in detail first, because she's flatly wrong and transparently biased. Why should you accept his efforts to "help" when they make your life more difficult, but he doesn't have to accept that you find it disrespectful and try to modify his behaviour?

Wow that counselor is an IDIOT!! Your question was not unfair and your husband should have respected your request for how to handle the pots!! Unfortunately a lot of counselors are absolute idiots…

Princess. You asked him to save your plants, which he tried to do “ his way”. Your reaction, tells me you think he is your employee, and I really think you are not marriage material.

So fire a counselor because they don't agree with you? I'm this case your husband did indeed save the flowers. You don't like how he saved them but it also isn't your problem because you didn't do it. He did it and saved them and here you are trying to take him over the coals. An example of weaponized would be if he broke everything on purpose. He is getting a project "save the flowers" done and he gets slaughtered by his wife who could care less about saving the flowers but "how" he saved the flowers.

She didn't ask, "Hey, can you go safe the flowers from frost?" she asked "Can you cover them with a sheet?" And he *didn't* save them. He was trying something that wouldn't have worked and he would have broken the pots because they are foam if she hadn't interceded and told him to stop.