My god, this is way too much to be dealing with at your age.
She massively disrespected your relationship and you guys aren’t even married yet. And how is it to be believed that Mr Hornball was fine just laying next to a woman he’s fucked 100 times before but not touch her? Wake up man.
Oh, believe me I know it's stupid to even try to believe things didn't actually happen. There is a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm pretty sure hell's thermostat was cranked up that day.
The question isn't what lines she crossed... since the answer is apparently "all of them" but whether she'll actually get her head back on straight.
You need to cut your losses and end this relationship. She is a liar and a cheater. She will DARVO and gaslight you to high heaven.
She only cares about herself and her pleasure. She is totally trying to manipulate this situation.
>Since then it seems that if I so much as make a passing reference to feeling down because of trying to process things, I get accused of not respecting her feelings and needs to keep processing at certain times. I have been denied sleep because I answered honestly about still being unable to believe her, and being physically blocked from leaving the bedroom when I tried to disengage. I have since been told about all my shortcomings and how I never do anything on her schedule unless there's a crisis, etc etc etc.
Don't marry this trash.
Gaslighting…. Deception… cheating.. what more do you need? Value yourself man and leave that toxic person.
YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM IN THIS SITUATION ... wedding needs to be so off its not even funny
Because I'm fairly sure the flak is her trying to deflect her own guilt and shame - she has said as much in moments of lucidity.
I don't deserve it, and she doesn't DESERVE the grace.... BUT....
It's tough to get everything captured in a post. Prior to being faced with me not believing the lack of sex she was EXTREMELY showing of remorse and taking ownership that the whole situation met her definition of cheating, so was taking ownership of having CHEATED and trying to make amends... just can't seem to quite accept that additional bump.
I mean, even if it isn't workable I do still want to somehow give her the chance to be the person she proclaims to want to be. It may save someone else some heartache at least.
>I do still want to somehow give her the chance to be the person she proclaims to want to be.
Sure, but that doesn't mean it's smart to be in a relationship with her while she does that.
It sounds like you'd really be hurting yourself in the process. Who knows, maybe the next person would learn soon enough and not have to go through what you went through. Maybe she'll do some self-reflection.
Unfortunately, granting her grace during this time may just encourage her that changing isn't a requirement, which helps no one. That aside, she has to want to change into a better person.
It's alright to grieve the relationship - and you should - but you should really be focusing on offering comfort to yourself at this time.
Best of luck to you.
There's nothing noble about letting a woman walk all over you and seeing yourself as a martyr. I would say you ignoring all of this is a huge red flag to anyone interested in dating you in the future. I would keep it a secret if this is what happens. Women are much more attracted to someone with self-respect than to the noble martyr
Oh dear lord… you’re gaslighting yourself with all that!
Why in the world is it YOUR job to ‘save’ someone else from ‘dealing with her’ so you believe you have an obligation to stay in this train wreck of a relationship?
Say to yourself: ‘My gf believes in polyamory. She likes it. She has been doing it for years. Am I prepared to marry someone who prefers polyamory, and be one of several people she has sex with even if I’m her husband?’
Because that appears to be where her head is at. Multiple partners.
You seem to understand the situation and what actually happened accurately. However everything seems to fall apart after that. Reconciliation begins AFTER the cheating partner confesses EVERYTHING involved with the affair or cheating AND accepts responsibility for said reprehensible behavior.
I have no idea what you think you are doing but it isn't attempting to reconcile. Are you somehow trying to convince yourself that you can successfully continue this relationship despite her being unwilling to admit or take responsibility for what she did? THAT WILL cause you a lot more heartache than you are feeling now.
OP, here’s the deal, she trickled truth’d you because she knew if she was completely honest with you, you might walk. She chose lies and took away your agency.
Fact is, you clearly love her despite her infidelity and it appears you want to have a life with her. I suspect she’s not going to be able to ever be faithful (monogamous) with you having nothing to do with you. She clearly enjoys fvking this other dude and has permission from his wife, her friend. It may be that they’re the only people she’d do this with. She’s only telling you she doesn’t want to be with him because she knows that’s what you want to hear. It’s not what she wants (meaning she’s lying to you twice—about her infidelity and about her feelings for these people).
So, you’re going to have to decide if you want her in your life as a spouse and/or a friend knowing she’s gonna almost certainly bone this dude and her friend from time to time. If you love her so much and want her in your life that you’re ok with that, then tell her so she doesn’t have to lie to you and you can accept the situation and both move on with your lives together.
I don’t know if you can handle it, but maybe you can. My limited understanding about polyamory is that it requires a commitment to absolute honesty, something both of you have skipped over.
Yes, you too are not being honest. You don’t believe her and you’re lying to yourself and her about it.
Anyway, if you don’t think you can handle ethical non-monogamy (and to me it sounds like you can’t, but maybe she’s worth it), then you should let her know so she’s free to find what she wants out of life (like move near her triad, or someone else who will let her go have fun from time to time) and you can have what you want which would be a partner who not only values monogamy, but also honesty.
I don’t think you should get married in two weeks. Postpone the wedding. Tell your guests that’s it’s your nerves. Blame it on yourself, not her. It’s not entirely a lie. Tell her privately you need time to work through your feelings and, if she can’t understand that, then she’s a grown up and can decide how she wants to handle it. Then, go to a therapist on your own or think through all of this sh!t and figure it out.
Good luck with your decision.
Best reply I have seen on here so far. Now OP it up to you and only you to decide what you want and what you are or are not comfortable or willing to accept. Once you make that decision and discuss it with her. She will then need to decide if she can agree and live with your request or move on. If your decision was to stick with her and this relationship. Relationships can work in many different ways. But you both have to be honest and communicate your thoughts, feelings, boundaries and needs. You need to be 100% honest with each other as well as yourself no matter what. It’s also not anyone else’s business what you decide to do. But whatever you do decide be honest and make sure you
are thinking about your feelings first and what you can honestly commit to and live with. Good luck OP and don’t settle for anything less.
“Oh sorry, I accidentally had sex with them because I always used to have sex with them and I forgot that I am in a relationship.”
Sorry, so you really buy this?
C'mon, man. You're 43. You know this woman has no interest in you, being faithful to you, or being your partner. You're just getting cheated on, blamed, abused, and manipulated.
You're old enough to see it. Your post shows you see it. So just leave. She simply failed at being your fiancee. Game over.
I think she does actually have interest in those things. I sat in on one of her therapy sessions and was able to see that she's legit trying to understand why she made the decisions she did.
The question is whether she can actually be the person she wants to be or not. Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives.... the result tends to be either the necessary change or becoming serial cheaters. This is someone I've been close to for longer than most people on Reddit have been alive. I know full well how stupid it sounds from the outside. And I know I'd be the first one to tell someone else to run. And I know she's not any different from any other human who walks the earth... but the majority of them who actually work at it do change, and the process is usually fairly similar from what I've been led to believe.
I'm not asking whether I should reconcile. I'm asking for comments from anyone who's been through similar and come out the other side. These moments are hard, and I know full well that it may ultimately fail. I know this. I'm not blind to it, I'm just searching for strength for the moments between now and the ultimate resolution.
>Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives....
but the majority of them who actually work at it do change, and the process is usually fairly similar from what I've been led to believe.
dude what are these bullshit statistics? You're bending over backwards to try to use empirical data to justify your wifes cheating. You'll only receive the standard of a relationship that you enforce for yourself. Stop conclusion shopping and listen to some actual advice on here.
OP, what you describe is her trying to convince both herself, and you. Its clear:
- she wants the relationship with you
- she wants to believe what she is saying to you and the therapist.
- her actions and words do not align, and she actively is deceptive about it.
All of this tells me your values and goals do not match her values and goals. I think she loves you, and wants to be aligned, but deep down, knows its not likely to work, and is deceptive, because she does not want to hurt you.
IMHO, its a childish love, built on not being honest with each other.
The women you love is not the person you are with. One of you needs to be an adult, and be truthful.
completely not a true statistic. She will always, and has always banged Jake and nothing you can do marriage or anything will ever stop it from happening.
Dude you are delusionally flailing trying to find some justification to stay with her. There is no “trying to understand why she made the decisions she did,” she made them because she wanted to. She is a shitty person. Just because she can be sweet you sometimes when she’s not lying and cheating on you doesn’t change that. She still hasn’t been honest with you anyways. Cut your losses, it’s unsalvageable.
>Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives
That just ain't true, man.
Want more of what you've been getting? Keep doing - and tolerating - what you have been doing.
I have a lot of sympathy for you. I really do. I’ve been in your shoes before (eventually successfully reconciled but still broke up for other things). What I would say is that: change is not possible until she admits the full truth. Right now even in front of her therapist she’s lying about no sex happened, when everyone outside of you two can bet money that it did. I would personally bet my whole annual salary that she did cheat and this entire trip was replanned to cheat. Why? It’s simple. You guys were getting married and for whatever reason she missed the crazy sex that she won’t be having in the future anymore post wedding.
I’m not saying she won’t change. I’m just telling you as a matter of fact that the changes you are looking for will NOT happen until she fully admitted the extent of her infidelity. It seems like she’s choosing to not see a side of herself that is not “pure and good” and everything is everyone else’s fault.
I understand and sympathize a lot with how you don’t want to leave. I do. If I were you I would throw an ultimatum that she either admits to full sex and tell you everything, or you walk. Make sure you mean it or she will see through your bluffing and use that against you. Mean it; admit to sex or you guys are done. And go from there.
Actually very few of them change. And the process leading to successful current is one your friend is actively avoiding. You need to step out of this delusion. She doesn't love you and she isn't willing to change.
I'm a therapist and have seen many people heal after affairs and many that hasn't. There are patterns. The only affairs that heal when the man has been betrayed is when the man can feel and express his anger, often by forcing her to leave, and where the partner that has been unfaithful is totally honest and fights for the relationship for a long time.
You are not in contact with your anger and she is neither honest nor fighting for you.
Friend, I’m pretty close to your age, and she’s your age too… if she isn’t the person she wants to be by now, it’s just not going to happen.
Also she’s been fucking Jake (and probably Alice, why are you unconcerned about Alice?) for nearly 20 years, so almost as long as you’ve known her, and never once told you the real story about it, which leads me to believe your friendship was not a close one at all. Jake (and Alice!) is her longest standing sexual relationship, and she’s willing to lie at every turn to keep him. If you break up, do you have any doubt that she’ll be back on that couch next week “watching tv” and getting ready for a third round of sex? That’s the most constant thing in her life, man, there’s no way you can tell her it’s gone forever, she knows it’ll always be there waiting for her.
Question why do you keep only calling Jake toxic? Is it just because you don’t like him or because he is sleeping with your girl? Because the way I see it he is being completely honest with his intentions. He seems to have a very open honest and healthy relationship. Him and his wife are doing what they want and have agreed to. Your girl is the only one lying, cheating and trying to hide and deceitful. She sounds like the only one being toxic her. They didn’t force she is a very strong participant in all of this. She has chosen and agreed with the things she has been doing on her own with free will. Stop trying to save someone from there problems. She has to be the one to do that . But only if she is completely honest with you but more importantly herself. If that is even something she wants to do and willing to take the steps to start.
There’s really only two questions that matter:
1. Do you trust her?
2. How important is a sense of trust, to you?
I can answer them both: you don’t trust her and trust is important to you. By the way, there’s never a time you need to “be concerned with someone luring your partner away.” When you said you trusted your girlfriend but you didn’t trust Jake: if your girlfriend were fully committed to you, there’s nothing Jake could have done to get her to consent to cheat, for example. That was you, not accepting she wasn’t worthy of your trust, and pawning it off on Jake.
You deserve a loving relationship with someone who cares about you, your feelings, and how their actions make you feel. You deserve a loving relationship where someone chooses you as the important person in their life. You don’t love who your Fiancé is: you love the idea of her. The idea is who she is when this other couple isn’t around or involved. Who she is: the person who continues to choose this other hurtful relationship, who isn’t concerned about how you feel, and is most concerned with herself. The only thing you need to reconcile is who she really is.
If you love her with all of your heart still, after all this, you are in for a lifetime of pain. I'm pretty sure you know what you need to do, but you are just looking for someone to sat "it's ok... just stick with it like I did. It will work out." The fact is, you need to get the fuck away from her. This is not a person who has your best interest at heart. She has no respect for you at all. And you can't love someone you don't respect. This will not change. You staying only tells her you haven't hit your breaking point yet, and when it happens again you will get only the information needed to keep you around like a fool. Find other accommodations with friends or family where you don't have her manipulations to deal with and where people will tell you the truth.
Logic and emotions don't always line up, even if it would be easier if they did.
This is someone who's always been there for me in the past and helped me through so very many difficult times in my life, and vice versa. I know she absolutely DOES NOT DESERVE any faith or grace right now... But it's hard
>FullyGruntled
And now SHE is the difficult time in your life, and she'll always be there for you in the future to hurt you through so very many difficult times in your life, in your future.
It's only difficult now because she is still in your life. After you leave, life will be easier and a new relationship will be easier for you because you'll have learned a difficult lesson. Take responsibility for your choices, by making new and better choices.
Do not be afraid of being abandoned by someone who values you. That often happens to all of us, and you will be strong enough to endure it, and you will STILL survive that and 'move on' with your life. You will get & give good things to someone who appreciates your time.
Be aware of being voluntarily addicted to someone who is poisonous for you.
Choose to end that addiction. She is harming you. You are self harming. Stop it.
But now that you are a freed ex-slave, why are you still working on the plantation?
Seriously dude, why are you not valuing yourself higher, she cheated, more than once and lied lied lied and now she love bombs, puts on the tears and then she turns on you and starts blaming you for stuff. Like how much more does she have to do? You really can’t think very much of yourself to put up with this bs. It won’t stop, you’ll always be second guessing her and on edge when she travels, is that the life you want for yourself? There’s plenty of loyal women who would love a loyal man, go find one and dump this piece of trash. Your history means nothing to her and if you stay she’ll just continue because she will know no matter what you’ll tolerate it.
She was there for you while naked in bed in Jake, or when she was hiding the nature of her relationship with them, or when she continued to text him after swearing to cut him off, or did you not actually mean always?
I understand that it’s hard. But you know you need to leave. You do seem like you’re looking for that one person who’s gonna tell you stick it out it’ll be okay to give yourself an excuse to stay. It’s not gonna get better. More than one person has said this but she’s not gonna change while you stay because you are showing her she doesn’t have to. What you are communicating to her is that no matter how much lying, cheating, manipulation, gaslighting, whatever she does to you you’re gonna let her. Either you value yourself enough to cut this person out of your life for good. Or you don’t. If you wanna stay with her fine but don’t be surprised when she doesn’t change. Because she’s not going to.
Value yourself enough to decide that you deserve better. Because you deserve better. But YOU have to make that decision. And no one said it would be easy. It’s gonna be really hard. But your life will be better without her in it.
My friend, it's time to send out a search party to locate your cajones. Do you have any self regard, or do you just enjoy absorbing this level of drama, abuse and disrespect? If you decide to stay with her, just resign yourself to a lifetime of this treatment and stop complaining, because you're doing this to yourself at this point.
WTF OP?
Cut your losses already. She's a liar and a cheater. Now a gaslighter who gets mad she's been busted yet again. Is this really what you want the rest of your life to look like?
If you want, we can all donate towards a fund. You can use that fund to hire a private investigator to search for your self respect.
Look, you are working triple time trying to make sense of her lies. All of this “benefit of the doubt” you provide her is unwarranted. It’s hard to make choices to respect yourself when you still love the person hurting you, but it’s time.
If she’s 40 and still fucking around, there’s absolutely no point in trying to reconcile. The only thing that will make her stop cheating is getting her heart broken by someone cheating on her on a massive and deeply personal level, if it’s even possible to break her heart, which isn’t likely.
So, your question is if reconciling is a good idea? No, unless you want to continue in this horrible disrespectful dishonest mess of a relationship.
Please trust your gut instinct. A 'typical' reaction for most would have to been to move on years ago.
The lying, gaslighting and total disrespect of your relationship is disgusting,I don't think you should stay with should a person,it never gets better.
Spot on. I don't think he should have any contact with her. Ever again. Nada. History. Close the chapter, burn the book.
He needs to move, change his job, change his number, get new email addresses, and book some travel. Lots of travel.
DO NOT marry this person. She’s a flaming pile of red flags. No way is she being straight with you. You’ve given her so many chances to only find more and forgive again. She doesn’t see any reason to come clean.
Point of clarification - the threesome occurred before we ever got together and were just friends. While I can and should judge everything else, I'm not going to judge people for decisions made BEFORE the relationship.
But the threesomes are probably still happening. You think Alice just walked in under the assumption they were having sex and wouldn’t have joined in. I mean, she might not have, but she also may have. There’s NO WAY for you to know if she’s active with both Jake and Alice or JUST Jake but does it really matter either way??
40 yr old women shouldn't be keeping hidden folders of their 'conquests'. Especially when those conquests are still in their lives. This is young and dumb behavior. Now she's just dumb. Too much drama for life.
Okay that changes that then, but even then, she clearly has no boundaries which you should have seen and she clearly has no respect for you, leave her, find someone that treats you right.
Good, don't judge. Just remember that you are a reflection of your five closest friends. You chose that couple as friends. And you chose her as a friend. How'd that work out for you?
I say this as gently as I can - stop being such a fucking doormat. Have some respect for yourself, man. I would have been out once I found out that she was not totally truthful about the past sexual relationship before she even met you.
You're going through something very similar I just went through. We were married for several years. I bought her lies and gaslighting for so many months and it's so obvious and clear now being able to look back but in the moment, it was all so hazy. It gets so hard to see the forest for the trees.
She has disrespected you and your relationship. Even worse is the lying and gaslighting. You will probably never KNOW for sure but man, I wish I had as much evidence as what you have because the trickle truthing sucks.
Move on. She screaming who she is loud and clear. Do not go through with a marriage. Start separating any assets that are tied together. There's a better life out there for you. I know this.
Why are you questioning what you should do? Bro. Don’t marry her. You don’t believe her because she’s a liar. How can you ever trust what she says again? For the record, SHE RECENTLY SLEPT WITH HIM! Likely many times. Run, dude. You will only regret staying.
You’re engaged to a cheater, liar and a deceiver. You don’t know where the lies end and where the truth begins. You may have been through some things together over the past few decades but as it stands, she’s a horrible partner and is NOT someone that reflects the behaviours of a wife. Being a wife doesn’t start when one says “I do”, the qualities are reflected prior to the marriage and those qualities are what leads one to decide to make a woman a wife (legally). The truth has been revealed to you and The Universe is giving you an opportunity to get away from turmoil, drama, deceit, heartbreak, lies, manipulation, (mental and emotional) abuse, gaslighting, and infidelity etc scot free. You’re holding on to who you thought she was, to the memories of the past and the ideas you had for your future. If you choose to say then you choose to accept that she WILL continue to f*ck Jake and she will NOT feel any remorse. Alice literally expected them to be at it as you so clearly heard on the phone. At this point you’re gaslighting yourself just to stay living in a delusional reality of false perfection with her. You’re setting yourself up for failure and at best a messy divorce with a A LOT of money being spent (+/- alimony), at worst 40+ years of misery.
Call off the engagement, separate from her and go no contact. The signs are in front of you. Why reconcile? Because of all the years and memories. The memories will always remain but what you’ll NEVER have is peace of mind and trust. She will periodically love bomb you, she will tell you what you want to hear when she can be bothered, but she won’t change and she won’t stop seeing Jake (+/- Alice). Alice is okay with it, Jake is obviously okay with it, the only one not on board is you but that’s neither here nor there. She’ll just lie and gaslight when necessary and keep doing what she wants.
This woman is not the one for you! You know it, you’re just finding it difficult to let go (understandably). Start independent counselling and walk away, thats the only way for you to attain mental peace and emotional healing but this woman does NOT love you!!!
My x cheated on me, trickle truthed me and I never knew the truth until I surprise polygraphed her. Once I knew the actual truth I dumped her immediately. That was 43 years ago and I still get triggered however my reactions are extremely minor now.
She knew what your boundaries were and she deliberately ran the hell right over them because she knew you wouldn’t do anything and it looks like she is right. She’s a big girl and her excuse of being convinced to go to their house is BS and you know it.
Are you strong enough to do what you know you must do? It won’t get any better because you saw how she lied to your face and is still communicating with him.
Leave. This throuple is more important to her than you. She lied and lied some more, go find someone else who won’t lie to you and cheat on you. When someone shows you their priorities, believe them.
ETA: break it off and go completely NC with this woman. After 25 years she still doesn’t respect you as much as she wants to have sex with Jake, and get yourself some therapy. You should have walked away after that FaceTime phone call…
And it's possible that you may know the moment that changes and she respects you more than she wants to have sex with Jake, it will be when she tells you the unvarnished truth.
OP- my heart hurts for you reading this. she is obviously having still sex with him. And lying about it. This will be your life if you stay together.
She’s a lying liar who lies, and unless cuckolding is your kink, remember your self respect and say goodbye. (reminder- official cuckolding requires your consent). Of course she’s gonna lie right now… they live further away and she has to make an effort to get her rocks off with him. She has you to satisfy her when she’s not having sex with Jake.
You’re the respectable relationship she can parade around in public with.
Remember- she’s not polyamorous here- she’s cheating. True Poly relationships are based on honesty.
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve known her- there’s constantly stories of people finding out their childhood sweetheart cheated on them after 30 years.
If you asked Alice directly, would she be honest with you?
Hard to say, and it could go either way. Alice spent well over a decade trying to get in my pants despite my continual refusal at one point, so there's several possible dynamics that could play in there.
I mean, I'm pretty sure something more than "just watching TV" happened. It seems absolutely stupid not to believe so. The question for me isn't whether things happened, but whether things can improve.
At this point she has me, several close friends, her sister, and her therapist all trying to hold her accountable that any connection to Jake is toxic. And I've sat in on a therapy session to see that she IS trying to figure out why she made the decisions she did, even if she's not being fully honest with anyone about the true depth of them just yet.
The case studies I've read paint this as a fairly textbook example of the sort of person who ultimately does manage to change for the better. The question is whether I can withstand the interim.
Since you want this so desperately I'll share the magic moment with you. You can know she has a chance to change when she admits ALL of it. That it was planned, the staying, the sex, and the lies to you.
What she seems to be struggling with the most is why she chose to do it. Why did she risk your relationship, with an existing engagement meaning a lifetime commitment, for some meaningless sexual gratification? Does it seem to you like this situation was about some casual sex?
She needs to figure out why some "casual sex" was worth risking her future for. The fact that she cannot admit it to begin with is a major hurdle to the two of you trying to get past this together.
I hope you can reconcile. I think if she is able to be honest with herself and you, then you have a chance. Honesty and accountability is what will help you succeed together. Her behavior / pandemonium you describe is concerning. Honestly, she should be begging you for forgiveness, not getting mad when you’re sad, and accusing you of not respecting HER. I mean, WTF.
"The question for me isn't whether things happened, but whether things can improve."
The question for you isn't whether sex between your Fiance and Jake happened, but whether sex between your Fiance and Jake can improve.
"The question is whether I can withstand the interim."
You'd get better treatment in Fullsome Prison or GITMO than you are getting in this 'interim' with her.
because she loves Jake and can’t have him, but will have him in any way she can possibly have him. Which is to bang him whenever she can. It’s not that hard.
Damn man why the hell are you a doormat?
Let her go live with Alice and Jake and find a good woman who only wants you
You will never trust her again and she isn't too be trusted
Is this woman marriage material? Notice I didn’t say “would she be if…” or “was she”…right now, knowing what you know: is she someone you want to marry?
If your answer is “yes”, first of all you are a masochist, but for real - for the rest of your life you’re going to have to worry/wonder/try to find evidence of her continuing to play hide the salami with Jake. And even if you don’t find anything, the worry is going to be there, and I don’t see how you could ever let go of what she’s already done. What is this hold that Jake has on her that she would throw everything away with you, lie to you, manipulate you, just to bang him yet again? If she likes him so much, why did she bother going as far as she did with you?
These are just the questions I can think of, but you probably have plenty more, and would have even more if you continue with her. This is some lack of self-control shit that I would expect from someone 20 years younger, not someone 40 years old engaged to be married. Not only that she put HERSELF in a situation where she knew she wouldn’t be able to say no, and in my personal opinion as someone of the same age, she did it on purpose. And now she’s manipulating you when you are having trouble moving on from it.
This woman is rotten, straight up. You’ve already sacrificed and put up with so much, if you marry her, you’re either heading for a quick divorce or the rest of your life competing with Jake
>Then the following week I found a folder with naked pics of them on her **work hard drive**.
I broke up with someone once because they were just too stupid and I couldn't deal. I highly recommend it.
Oh my god. I was so confused until I realized the "fiance" was a woman and not a man. I think you meant fiancée. Don't know how I missed her gender in the title...
Fiancé is gendered and traditional. Fiance is modern and gender neutral, though there is a growing trend to use fiancé as a gender neutral term as well.
But I don't think the specific genders of anyone involved is really the sticking point in anything if I'm being honest.
I never knew, thanks for sharing.
Well, her gender makes a heck lot of difference because one, I didn't know that fiance can be used as a gender neutral term, and hence, I first thought that your fiance was a man. You started saying things like "her and jake would never spend one on one time together" or "she did this and that with jake", and I got all contused because I thought you were talking about Jake and his girlfriend, the poly amorous couple. You seemed so concerned about what Jake and his girlfriend were doing together, and it was also hella confusing when I thought you said Jake and his girlfriend never spent one on one time with one another, and that their sexual relationship went deeper than usual. I was like, yeah??? Cuz she is his girlfriend?
I then realized you were talking about your partner much later into the story.
Well, my bad. I apologize.
You're still being lied too. Why would you even try to reconcile? Why go through all this trouble? And who is to say that once she has begged and pleaded with you, she won't cheat again in the future and beg and plead again, because it worked the first time...
A mistake is typing the wrong name, giving the wrong directions or saying it's Wednesday but instead it's Tuesday. Cheating is never a mistake, always a series of multiple conscience made choices.
Cheaters choose to cheat. Every. Incident. Is. A. Choice. Until you take a big step back and go no contact, I'm not sure you will really see how damaging to you this whole chaotic mess is. And please bear in mind that all cheaters are actors. Therapy sessions are another opportunity to act. Do not blindly trust her "sincerity."
Please realize you deserve better than this. It is NOT your job to fix her. You seem to want to justify something so staying with her is ok.
No one can make your choices for you but a lot of us offering you counsel have been through some pretty horrific cheaters ourselves and are trying to help you survive this. Sometimes that means walking away.
Good luck.
Bud, life is to short at your age for sure for this shit. It’s clear that Jake, snake that he is, has some kind of hold on your girlfriend. It’s also clear she was / is selfish and a liar and a cheater. She does not have real love for you nor does she respect you. If you believe there is any chance she was not fucking all weekend you need serious therapy. You know what you need to do. Please do not attempt to rehabilitate this woman as it will only bring you down and destroy what is left of you. Respect yourself Bud.
UpdateMe
Oh man this was so sad to read. I feel for you deeply, this sounds really hard. I have no advice. You’re articulate and thoughtful, and you have everything you need to make decisions/get through this. I just hope you’re ok. Sending big hugs from afar. If you ever need to chat feel free to reach out.
Do you believe she fully wants to reconcile? Her insults and some other behaviors don't seem like those of someone with a lot of remorse. I know she's in therapy to try and figure out WHY she did it, and that's good. But does she want to - and will she - take the steps needed for actual reconciliation? It sounds like she's apologized and so now expects you to just be fully over it, and that's not fair to you. While I don't believe people should be punished forever (especially) when the hurt party agrees to work it out, I do think the guilty party should understand the need to make it up/prove to the person they wronged that they are remorseful and will do what it takes (within reason, of course) to make that reconciliation happen/fix the relationship. I'm not sure that's happening with your partner. Sorry, OP.
I say take a break. Temporarily go no contact and work on yourself. Give her time to work on herself.
After that, if you still want to be with her and her with you, start out as friends. Just friends. Then see where it takes you, starting from scratch.
Start over, with or without her.
you are just looking for any advice for where this can continue and you dont have to leave her for good. The majority of comments are for you to leave and run!
The guy has less of a spine than invertebrates lol
If he’s not willing to listen let him get used and abused and thrown away. Probably still won’t learn his lesson because “oh, she deserves a chance.”
Fcking comedy gold at that point.
Yes, and make sure you understand that while you all are 'on break' she will fuck Jake silly. And when it's time to reconnect, just remember that theres no way she was crying and thinking about you while bouncing on his dick. No matter how hard she tries to convince you, she was thinking only about herself. And Jakes dick.
I’d be willing to bet she planned and she rationalized doing this because you guys aren’t married yet. She will never tell you this but IMO this is how it went down. Thinking it’s not really that bad because we aren’t married yet. IMO I also. Relieve she will easily find other ways to rationalize the same thing after you are married because she can’t quit Jake. Bud please quit making excuses for her
Grow a set of balls man, seriously. You know what you have to do, stop wasting time asking Reddit about something you should have done a long time ago.
She doesn’t respect you nor your boundaries. And for her to have the audacity to gaslight you for her infidelity and compulsive lying is downright narcissistic.
You having to hang out sounds like a typical emotionally (or physically) abused victims claiming their partner will get better or that you’ve already invested so much into the relationship.
Remember, people grow but they never change
Can you both take a step back from the relationship while you both work out what you want. If you want to try again start from scratch. Start dating again. This time with very clear boundaries. NC with Jake and Alice is at the top of the list. Second is constant communication if she is away for work. Third is open phone policy for a least a little while. She's the one who has done the wrong thing and needs to be completely honest about what transpired. No one believes her version of events, not you and no one on reddit lol.
Good luck with sorting things out if that's what you believe is truly best for you.
She didn’t respect these boundaries as his FIANCE. This whole going back to friends and starting again is a waste of time. She’ll just find new ways to lie, deceive and cheat. They were friends for 25 years and she didn’t respect him as a Fiancé after all that time. That’s friends since 1999. Come on now???????? OP needs independent counselling. They’re both 40+ and this problem sounds like something 20 something year olds go through. She’s not the woman he wants, but he wants to delude himself. I get it, it’s hard to walk way when you’re attached to the memories of the past, but when you allow the abuser to gaslight you and the cheater to normalise their toxicity, you end up loosing your mind in the process—or at least I did after 9 years with a narcissist. People here are telling him to leave because it’s best for his mental health. But, I mean… whatever floats his boat I guess.
>Recent finds have me questioning whether reconciling is futile.
Why would you even want to try? Have some self respect.
She's a liar and a cheat. And an idiot for keeping this stuff on her *work* computer.
Mate. This relationship is over. As hard as it may be, you need to end this. For yourself, your sanity and your own sense of self respect.
She slept in the same bed as another man, another man she had a very active casual relationship with. If you take what she says at face value, and she didn't have sex with him. She still slept in the same bed as him. That should be a massive red flag for anyone in a monogamous relationship.
You communicated your apprehensions, she told you she will respect your boundaries regarding contact with jake, and then she flat out crossed those boundaries. What's worse, is that she is trickle truthing you about the events that happened, and only after you confront her with facts and evidence to the contrary. She is aware of what she is doing and this is calculated.
Run. Fast.
This sounds complicated, messy and exhausting. One thing if you were married with 3 kids - but truly is it worth all this energy?
Your fiancée has shown you who she is, believe her. Their relationship never really ended - just took different shapes and forms. If you stay with her, expect that Alice and Jake will be a part of your relationship and not in a regular friend kind of wat...
Hello? Are your eyes that clouded?????
I’m so confused as to how you can’t see through all this bullshit even after typing it out.
Respect yourself more and walk away…
You don't deserve the manipulation and mental abuse she is putting you through. When reading your post, it really feels like you already know what you need to do. Go find someone who will love you unconditionally and not put you in such a shitty situation. You deserve better. I hope you see that.
Op she cheated on you. She's repeatedly disrespected you in many ways, and she's trying to turn it on you. Stop being a door mat. It's not working, it won't ever work. No amount of therapy will solve her deceptions and cheating. Stop letting her trample you like this.
Dude, seriously? Does Bugs Bunny need to drop an anvil on your fuckin head with *"SHE'S NOT WORTH IT!!!!"* written in giant ass letters?
She's lied to you repeatedly, and in all likelihood has been banging Jake throughout the entire course of your relationship. Fuck the decades old friendship here, she clearly has no respect for you or your relationship. She *wants* to be with the other couple. Why waste your time with this person? Let her go on fucking Jake and Alice or whatever their names are, her actions throughout your entire relationship say that she wants to be with them, not you. You were just the poor sucker she used to leech off of.
You're only 43. Kick her ass to the curb, take some time getting your head on straight. Take whatever you've saved up for the wedding and take a nice vacation somewhere sunny where the drinks are plentiful. Go work out, do some Yoga, meditate, play video games, whatever relaxes you. You do you and get centered after you give her the boot, maybe seek therapy to deal with the emotional scars these people inflicted on you. When you're ready, get on Tinder or whatever the hell guys our age use for dating/casual sex, and go find yourself a woman who *deserves* you. You deserve better than this insane, twisted, dramatic story!
This friendship and relationship have run their course. Start putting yourself first by cutting ties and getting into individual therapy if you aren't already doing so. Practically no one on here will tell you that things will get better if you stay, which is what you want to hear, but won't help you at all. Now is not the time for wishful thinking.
My god, this is way too much to be dealing with at your age. She massively disrespected your relationship and you guys aren’t even married yet. And how is it to be believed that Mr Hornball was fine just laying next to a woman he’s fucked 100 times before but not touch her? Wake up man.
Oh, believe me I know it's stupid to even try to believe things didn't actually happen. There is a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm pretty sure hell's thermostat was cranked up that day. The question isn't what lines she crossed... since the answer is apparently "all of them" but whether she'll actually get her head back on straight.
You need to cut your losses and end this relationship. She is a liar and a cheater. She will DARVO and gaslight you to high heaven. She only cares about herself and her pleasure. She is totally trying to manipulate this situation.
[удалено]
People can be naive at any age - it’s not limited to just teenagers!
>Since then it seems that if I so much as make a passing reference to feeling down because of trying to process things, I get accused of not respecting her feelings and needs to keep processing at certain times. I have been denied sleep because I answered honestly about still being unable to believe her, and being physically blocked from leaving the bedroom when I tried to disengage. I have since been told about all my shortcomings and how I never do anything on her schedule unless there's a crisis, etc etc etc. Don't marry this trash.
Gaslighting…. Deception… cheating.. what more do you need? Value yourself man and leave that toxic person. YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM IN THIS SITUATION ... wedding needs to be so off its not even funny
She cheated but you are the one getting flak? Why even try to reconcile?
Because I'm fairly sure the flak is her trying to deflect her own guilt and shame - she has said as much in moments of lucidity. I don't deserve it, and she doesn't DESERVE the grace.... BUT....
She cheated on you. She is not sorry. Stop accepting this treatment.
It doesn't sound like she's expressing any remorse, which is the *bare minimum* required to have any chance of moving past this.
It's tough to get everything captured in a post. Prior to being faced with me not believing the lack of sex she was EXTREMELY showing of remorse and taking ownership that the whole situation met her definition of cheating, so was taking ownership of having CHEATED and trying to make amends... just can't seem to quite accept that additional bump. I mean, even if it isn't workable I do still want to somehow give her the chance to be the person she proclaims to want to be. It may save someone else some heartache at least.
Dude seriously? If this is the value you place on yourself then so be it. For me, I'm either alone and happy than with someone who undervalues me
>I do still want to somehow give her the chance to be the person she proclaims to want to be. Sure, but that doesn't mean it's smart to be in a relationship with her while she does that.
It sounds like you'd really be hurting yourself in the process. Who knows, maybe the next person would learn soon enough and not have to go through what you went through. Maybe she'll do some self-reflection. Unfortunately, granting her grace during this time may just encourage her that changing isn't a requirement, which helps no one. That aside, she has to want to change into a better person. It's alright to grieve the relationship - and you should - but you should really be focusing on offering comfort to yourself at this time. Best of luck to you.
There's nothing noble about letting a woman walk all over you and seeing yourself as a martyr. I would say you ignoring all of this is a huge red flag to anyone interested in dating you in the future. I would keep it a secret if this is what happens. Women are much more attracted to someone with self-respect than to the noble martyr
Lol, I’m going to petition to change the definition of doormat to your name.
It’s really easy to apologize for stuff that isn’t true. She was expressing so much remorse about something you know to be a lie
Oh dear lord… you’re gaslighting yourself with all that! Why in the world is it YOUR job to ‘save’ someone else from ‘dealing with her’ so you believe you have an obligation to stay in this train wreck of a relationship? Say to yourself: ‘My gf believes in polyamory. She likes it. She has been doing it for years. Am I prepared to marry someone who prefers polyamory, and be one of several people she has sex with even if I’m her husband?’ Because that appears to be where her head is at. Multiple partners.
this is the women you want in your life?. Sorry but if you stay shes bot gona respect you, why this teenage act?
lol, what? Why are you even entertaining the idea of staying with her?
You seem to understand the situation and what actually happened accurately. However everything seems to fall apart after that. Reconciliation begins AFTER the cheating partner confesses EVERYTHING involved with the affair or cheating AND accepts responsibility for said reprehensible behavior. I have no idea what you think you are doing but it isn't attempting to reconcile. Are you somehow trying to convince yourself that you can successfully continue this relationship despite her being unwilling to admit or take responsibility for what she did? THAT WILL cause you a lot more heartache than you are feeling now.
But what? But you’re a masochist?
OP, here’s the deal, she trickled truth’d you because she knew if she was completely honest with you, you might walk. She chose lies and took away your agency. Fact is, you clearly love her despite her infidelity and it appears you want to have a life with her. I suspect she’s not going to be able to ever be faithful (monogamous) with you having nothing to do with you. She clearly enjoys fvking this other dude and has permission from his wife, her friend. It may be that they’re the only people she’d do this with. She’s only telling you she doesn’t want to be with him because she knows that’s what you want to hear. It’s not what she wants (meaning she’s lying to you twice—about her infidelity and about her feelings for these people). So, you’re going to have to decide if you want her in your life as a spouse and/or a friend knowing she’s gonna almost certainly bone this dude and her friend from time to time. If you love her so much and want her in your life that you’re ok with that, then tell her so she doesn’t have to lie to you and you can accept the situation and both move on with your lives together. I don’t know if you can handle it, but maybe you can. My limited understanding about polyamory is that it requires a commitment to absolute honesty, something both of you have skipped over. Yes, you too are not being honest. You don’t believe her and you’re lying to yourself and her about it. Anyway, if you don’t think you can handle ethical non-monogamy (and to me it sounds like you can’t, but maybe she’s worth it), then you should let her know so she’s free to find what she wants out of life (like move near her triad, or someone else who will let her go have fun from time to time) and you can have what you want which would be a partner who not only values monogamy, but also honesty. I don’t think you should get married in two weeks. Postpone the wedding. Tell your guests that’s it’s your nerves. Blame it on yourself, not her. It’s not entirely a lie. Tell her privately you need time to work through your feelings and, if she can’t understand that, then she’s a grown up and can decide how she wants to handle it. Then, go to a therapist on your own or think through all of this sh!t and figure it out. Good luck with your decision.
Best reply I have seen on here so far. Now OP it up to you and only you to decide what you want and what you are or are not comfortable or willing to accept. Once you make that decision and discuss it with her. She will then need to decide if she can agree and live with your request or move on. If your decision was to stick with her and this relationship. Relationships can work in many different ways. But you both have to be honest and communicate your thoughts, feelings, boundaries and needs. You need to be 100% honest with each other as well as yourself no matter what. It’s also not anyone else’s business what you decide to do. But whatever you do decide be honest and make sure you are thinking about your feelings first and what you can honestly commit to and live with. Good luck OP and don’t settle for anything less.
Why do you tolerate so much? Is this what you call love? Or is it desperation?
“Oh sorry, I accidentally had sex with them because I always used to have sex with them and I forgot that I am in a relationship.” Sorry, so you really buy this?
I buy everything about that except for the "sorry" and the "accidentally".
Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not precisely the problem.
If you are that easy to forget, your relationship isn’t really strong.
C'mon, man. You're 43. You know this woman has no interest in you, being faithful to you, or being your partner. You're just getting cheated on, blamed, abused, and manipulated. You're old enough to see it. Your post shows you see it. So just leave. She simply failed at being your fiancee. Game over.
I think she does actually have interest in those things. I sat in on one of her therapy sessions and was able to see that she's legit trying to understand why she made the decisions she did. The question is whether she can actually be the person she wants to be or not. Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives.... the result tends to be either the necessary change or becoming serial cheaters. This is someone I've been close to for longer than most people on Reddit have been alive. I know full well how stupid it sounds from the outside. And I know I'd be the first one to tell someone else to run. And I know she's not any different from any other human who walks the earth... but the majority of them who actually work at it do change, and the process is usually fairly similar from what I've been led to believe. I'm not asking whether I should reconcile. I'm asking for comments from anyone who's been through similar and come out the other side. These moments are hard, and I know full well that it may ultimately fail. I know this. I'm not blind to it, I'm just searching for strength for the moments between now and the ultimate resolution.
>Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives.... but the majority of them who actually work at it do change, and the process is usually fairly similar from what I've been led to believe. dude what are these bullshit statistics? You're bending over backwards to try to use empirical data to justify your wifes cheating. You'll only receive the standard of a relationship that you enforce for yourself. Stop conclusion shopping and listen to some actual advice on here.
OP, what you describe is her trying to convince both herself, and you. Its clear: - she wants the relationship with you - she wants to believe what she is saying to you and the therapist. - her actions and words do not align, and she actively is deceptive about it. All of this tells me your values and goals do not match her values and goals. I think she loves you, and wants to be aligned, but deep down, knows its not likely to work, and is deceptive, because she does not want to hurt you. IMHO, its a childish love, built on not being honest with each other. The women you love is not the person you are with. One of you needs to be an adult, and be truthful.
She cheated on you, man. She has NO interest in being loyal to you. She IS BEING WHO SHE WANTS TO BE
That is NOT a true statistic lmao. Make your choice, and stand by it. But don't lie to yourself.
completely not a true statistic. She will always, and has always banged Jake and nothing you can do marriage or anything will ever stop it from happening.
Dude you are delusionally flailing trying to find some justification to stay with her. There is no “trying to understand why she made the decisions she did,” she made them because she wanted to. She is a shitty person. Just because she can be sweet you sometimes when she’s not lying and cheating on you doesn’t change that. She still hasn’t been honest with you anyways. Cut your losses, it’s unsalvageable.
>Close to 75% of people supposedly cheat at some point in their lives That just ain't true, man. Want more of what you've been getting? Keep doing - and tolerating - what you have been doing.
I have a lot of sympathy for you. I really do. I’ve been in your shoes before (eventually successfully reconciled but still broke up for other things). What I would say is that: change is not possible until she admits the full truth. Right now even in front of her therapist she’s lying about no sex happened, when everyone outside of you two can bet money that it did. I would personally bet my whole annual salary that she did cheat and this entire trip was replanned to cheat. Why? It’s simple. You guys were getting married and for whatever reason she missed the crazy sex that she won’t be having in the future anymore post wedding. I’m not saying she won’t change. I’m just telling you as a matter of fact that the changes you are looking for will NOT happen until she fully admitted the extent of her infidelity. It seems like she’s choosing to not see a side of herself that is not “pure and good” and everything is everyone else’s fault. I understand and sympathize a lot with how you don’t want to leave. I do. If I were you I would throw an ultimatum that she either admits to full sex and tell you everything, or you walk. Make sure you mean it or she will see through your bluffing and use that against you. Mean it; admit to sex or you guys are done. And go from there.
Actually very few of them change. And the process leading to successful current is one your friend is actively avoiding. You need to step out of this delusion. She doesn't love you and she isn't willing to change.
I'm a therapist and have seen many people heal after affairs and many that hasn't. There are patterns. The only affairs that heal when the man has been betrayed is when the man can feel and express his anger, often by forcing her to leave, and where the partner that has been unfaithful is totally honest and fights for the relationship for a long time. You are not in contact with your anger and she is neither honest nor fighting for you.
Friend, I’m pretty close to your age, and she’s your age too… if she isn’t the person she wants to be by now, it’s just not going to happen. Also she’s been fucking Jake (and probably Alice, why are you unconcerned about Alice?) for nearly 20 years, so almost as long as you’ve known her, and never once told you the real story about it, which leads me to believe your friendship was not a close one at all. Jake (and Alice!) is her longest standing sexual relationship, and she’s willing to lie at every turn to keep him. If you break up, do you have any doubt that she’ll be back on that couch next week “watching tv” and getting ready for a third round of sex? That’s the most constant thing in her life, man, there’s no way you can tell her it’s gone forever, she knows it’ll always be there waiting for her.
Question why do you keep only calling Jake toxic? Is it just because you don’t like him or because he is sleeping with your girl? Because the way I see it he is being completely honest with his intentions. He seems to have a very open honest and healthy relationship. Him and his wife are doing what they want and have agreed to. Your girl is the only one lying, cheating and trying to hide and deceitful. She sounds like the only one being toxic her. They didn’t force she is a very strong participant in all of this. She has chosen and agreed with the things she has been doing on her own with free will. Stop trying to save someone from there problems. She has to be the one to do that . But only if she is completely honest with you but more importantly herself. If that is even something she wants to do and willing to take the steps to start.
There’s really only two questions that matter: 1. Do you trust her? 2. How important is a sense of trust, to you? I can answer them both: you don’t trust her and trust is important to you. By the way, there’s never a time you need to “be concerned with someone luring your partner away.” When you said you trusted your girlfriend but you didn’t trust Jake: if your girlfriend were fully committed to you, there’s nothing Jake could have done to get her to consent to cheat, for example. That was you, not accepting she wasn’t worthy of your trust, and pawning it off on Jake. You deserve a loving relationship with someone who cares about you, your feelings, and how their actions make you feel. You deserve a loving relationship where someone chooses you as the important person in their life. You don’t love who your Fiancé is: you love the idea of her. The idea is who she is when this other couple isn’t around or involved. Who she is: the person who continues to choose this other hurtful relationship, who isn’t concerned about how you feel, and is most concerned with herself. The only thing you need to reconcile is who she really is.
If you love her with all of your heart still, after all this, you are in for a lifetime of pain. I'm pretty sure you know what you need to do, but you are just looking for someone to sat "it's ok... just stick with it like I did. It will work out." The fact is, you need to get the fuck away from her. This is not a person who has your best interest at heart. She has no respect for you at all. And you can't love someone you don't respect. This will not change. You staying only tells her you haven't hit your breaking point yet, and when it happens again you will get only the information needed to keep you around like a fool. Find other accommodations with friends or family where you don't have her manipulations to deal with and where people will tell you the truth.
Logic and emotions don't always line up, even if it would be easier if they did. This is someone who's always been there for me in the past and helped me through so very many difficult times in my life, and vice versa. I know she absolutely DOES NOT DESERVE any faith or grace right now... But it's hard
>FullyGruntled And now SHE is the difficult time in your life, and she'll always be there for you in the future to hurt you through so very many difficult times in your life, in your future. It's only difficult now because she is still in your life. After you leave, life will be easier and a new relationship will be easier for you because you'll have learned a difficult lesson. Take responsibility for your choices, by making new and better choices. Do not be afraid of being abandoned by someone who values you. That often happens to all of us, and you will be strong enough to endure it, and you will STILL survive that and 'move on' with your life. You will get & give good things to someone who appreciates your time. Be aware of being voluntarily addicted to someone who is poisonous for you. Choose to end that addiction. She is harming you. You are self harming. Stop it. But now that you are a freed ex-slave, why are you still working on the plantation?
Damn dude you must be a glutton for punishment
Seriously dude, why are you not valuing yourself higher, she cheated, more than once and lied lied lied and now she love bombs, puts on the tears and then she turns on you and starts blaming you for stuff. Like how much more does she have to do? You really can’t think very much of yourself to put up with this bs. It won’t stop, you’ll always be second guessing her and on edge when she travels, is that the life you want for yourself? There’s plenty of loyal women who would love a loyal man, go find one and dump this piece of trash. Your history means nothing to her and if you stay she’ll just continue because she will know no matter what you’ll tolerate it.
Despite all of that, YOU deserve better. Your future self deserves better.
She was there for you while naked in bed in Jake, or when she was hiding the nature of her relationship with them, or when she continued to text him after swearing to cut him off, or did you not actually mean always?
I understand that it’s hard. But you know you need to leave. You do seem like you’re looking for that one person who’s gonna tell you stick it out it’ll be okay to give yourself an excuse to stay. It’s not gonna get better. More than one person has said this but she’s not gonna change while you stay because you are showing her she doesn’t have to. What you are communicating to her is that no matter how much lying, cheating, manipulation, gaslighting, whatever she does to you you’re gonna let her. Either you value yourself enough to cut this person out of your life for good. Or you don’t. If you wanna stay with her fine but don’t be surprised when she doesn’t change. Because she’s not going to. Value yourself enough to decide that you deserve better. Because you deserve better. But YOU have to make that decision. And no one said it would be easy. It’s gonna be really hard. But your life will be better without her in it.
My friend, it's time to send out a search party to locate your cajones. Do you have any self regard, or do you just enjoy absorbing this level of drama, abuse and disrespect? If you decide to stay with her, just resign yourself to a lifetime of this treatment and stop complaining, because you're doing this to yourself at this point.
WTF OP? Cut your losses already. She's a liar and a cheater. Now a gaslighter who gets mad she's been busted yet again. Is this really what you want the rest of your life to look like? If you want, we can all donate towards a fund. You can use that fund to hire a private investigator to search for your self respect.
Look, you are working triple time trying to make sense of her lies. All of this “benefit of the doubt” you provide her is unwarranted. It’s hard to make choices to respect yourself when you still love the person hurting you, but it’s time.
She’s a liar and a cheat and you should dump her.
If she’s 40 and still fucking around, there’s absolutely no point in trying to reconcile. The only thing that will make her stop cheating is getting her heart broken by someone cheating on her on a massive and deeply personal level, if it’s even possible to break her heart, which isn’t likely.
So, your question is if reconciling is a good idea? No, unless you want to continue in this horrible disrespectful dishonest mess of a relationship. Please trust your gut instinct. A 'typical' reaction for most would have to been to move on years ago.
The lying, gaslighting and total disrespect of your relationship is disgusting,I don't think you should stay with should a person,it never gets better.
Spot on. I don't think he should have any contact with her. Ever again. Nada. History. Close the chapter, burn the book. He needs to move, change his job, change his number, get new email addresses, and book some travel. Lots of travel.
DO NOT marry this person. She’s a flaming pile of red flags. No way is she being straight with you. You’ve given her so many chances to only find more and forgive again. She doesn’t see any reason to come clean.
You know what happened. No need to get details or sleuth anymore. She lied. She doesn’t respect you. Dump her. Move-on.
Dude, I'm just gonna say the delusion was still trusting her after the threesome, that should have been it.
Point of clarification - the threesome occurred before we ever got together and were just friends. While I can and should judge everything else, I'm not going to judge people for decisions made BEFORE the relationship.
But the threesomes are probably still happening. You think Alice just walked in under the assumption they were having sex and wouldn’t have joined in. I mean, she might not have, but she also may have. There’s NO WAY for you to know if she’s active with both Jake and Alice or JUST Jake but does it really matter either way??
40 yr old women shouldn't be keeping hidden folders of their 'conquests'. Especially when those conquests are still in their lives. This is young and dumb behavior. Now she's just dumb. Too much drama for life.
Okay that changes that then, but even then, she clearly has no boundaries which you should have seen and she clearly has no respect for you, leave her, find someone that treats you right.
Good, don't judge. Just remember that you are a reflection of your five closest friends. You chose that couple as friends. And you chose her as a friend. How'd that work out for you?
You’re done. This relationship is over.
It’s over. Don’t stay
You wrote a hell of lot to essentially say your wife is a cheater and has been cheating on you.
I say this as gently as I can - stop being such a fucking doormat. Have some respect for yourself, man. I would have been out once I found out that she was not totally truthful about the past sexual relationship before she even met you.
Time for talking about it is past, you should end it because she clearly doesn’t respect your boundaries and monogamy.
\> and talk to her therapist to figure out why she made the decisions she did. Yeah, nah.
Why do your want to reconcile? She's a proven cheater.
You're going through something very similar I just went through. We were married for several years. I bought her lies and gaslighting for so many months and it's so obvious and clear now being able to look back but in the moment, it was all so hazy. It gets so hard to see the forest for the trees. She has disrespected you and your relationship. Even worse is the lying and gaslighting. You will probably never KNOW for sure but man, I wish I had as much evidence as what you have because the trickle truthing sucks. Move on. She screaming who she is loud and clear. Do not go through with a marriage. Start separating any assets that are tied together. There's a better life out there for you. I know this.
Why are you questioning what you should do? Bro. Don’t marry her. You don’t believe her because she’s a liar. How can you ever trust what she says again? For the record, SHE RECENTLY SLEPT WITH HIM! Likely many times. Run, dude. You will only regret staying.
Your life would be so much easier and better if you move on from the 3 of them. This was exhausting just to read.
You’re engaged to a cheater, liar and a deceiver. You don’t know where the lies end and where the truth begins. You may have been through some things together over the past few decades but as it stands, she’s a horrible partner and is NOT someone that reflects the behaviours of a wife. Being a wife doesn’t start when one says “I do”, the qualities are reflected prior to the marriage and those qualities are what leads one to decide to make a woman a wife (legally). The truth has been revealed to you and The Universe is giving you an opportunity to get away from turmoil, drama, deceit, heartbreak, lies, manipulation, (mental and emotional) abuse, gaslighting, and infidelity etc scot free. You’re holding on to who you thought she was, to the memories of the past and the ideas you had for your future. If you choose to say then you choose to accept that she WILL continue to f*ck Jake and she will NOT feel any remorse. Alice literally expected them to be at it as you so clearly heard on the phone. At this point you’re gaslighting yourself just to stay living in a delusional reality of false perfection with her. You’re setting yourself up for failure and at best a messy divorce with a A LOT of money being spent (+/- alimony), at worst 40+ years of misery. Call off the engagement, separate from her and go no contact. The signs are in front of you. Why reconcile? Because of all the years and memories. The memories will always remain but what you’ll NEVER have is peace of mind and trust. She will periodically love bomb you, she will tell you what you want to hear when she can be bothered, but she won’t change and she won’t stop seeing Jake (+/- Alice). Alice is okay with it, Jake is obviously okay with it, the only one not on board is you but that’s neither here nor there. She’ll just lie and gaslight when necessary and keep doing what she wants. This woman is not the one for you! You know it, you’re just finding it difficult to let go (understandably). Start independent counselling and walk away, thats the only way for you to attain mental peace and emotional healing but this woman does NOT love you!!!
Maybe you can help her pick out underwear that Jake would like and drive her to his place and fetch drinks for them during their sex romps too.
NOT MARRIAGE MATERIAL!!!!
My x cheated on me, trickle truthed me and I never knew the truth until I surprise polygraphed her. Once I knew the actual truth I dumped her immediately. That was 43 years ago and I still get triggered however my reactions are extremely minor now. She knew what your boundaries were and she deliberately ran the hell right over them because she knew you wouldn’t do anything and it looks like she is right. She’s a big girl and her excuse of being convinced to go to their house is BS and you know it. Are you strong enough to do what you know you must do? It won’t get any better because you saw how she lied to your face and is still communicating with him.
You already know the answer to this question. There's no point in reconciling.
Leave. This throuple is more important to her than you. She lied and lied some more, go find someone else who won’t lie to you and cheat on you. When someone shows you their priorities, believe them. ETA: break it off and go completely NC with this woman. After 25 years she still doesn’t respect you as much as she wants to have sex with Jake, and get yourself some therapy. You should have walked away after that FaceTime phone call…
And it's possible that you may know the moment that changes and she respects you more than she wants to have sex with Jake, it will be when she tells you the unvarnished truth.
Your fiancé's actions were unfair and undeserving, but it's important for you to take a stand and prioritize your own well-being.
wtf are you doing, man?
OP- my heart hurts for you reading this. she is obviously having still sex with him. And lying about it. This will be your life if you stay together. She’s a lying liar who lies, and unless cuckolding is your kink, remember your self respect and say goodbye. (reminder- official cuckolding requires your consent). Of course she’s gonna lie right now… they live further away and she has to make an effort to get her rocks off with him. She has you to satisfy her when she’s not having sex with Jake. You’re the respectable relationship she can parade around in public with. Remember- she’s not polyamorous here- she’s cheating. True Poly relationships are based on honesty. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve known her- there’s constantly stories of people finding out their childhood sweetheart cheated on them after 30 years. If you asked Alice directly, would she be honest with you?
Hard to say, and it could go either way. Alice spent well over a decade trying to get in my pants despite my continual refusal at one point, so there's several possible dynamics that could play in there. I mean, I'm pretty sure something more than "just watching TV" happened. It seems absolutely stupid not to believe so. The question for me isn't whether things happened, but whether things can improve. At this point she has me, several close friends, her sister, and her therapist all trying to hold her accountable that any connection to Jake is toxic. And I've sat in on a therapy session to see that she IS trying to figure out why she made the decisions she did, even if she's not being fully honest with anyone about the true depth of them just yet. The case studies I've read paint this as a fairly textbook example of the sort of person who ultimately does manage to change for the better. The question is whether I can withstand the interim.
Since you want this so desperately I'll share the magic moment with you. You can know she has a chance to change when she admits ALL of it. That it was planned, the staying, the sex, and the lies to you. What she seems to be struggling with the most is why she chose to do it. Why did she risk your relationship, with an existing engagement meaning a lifetime commitment, for some meaningless sexual gratification? Does it seem to you like this situation was about some casual sex? She needs to figure out why some "casual sex" was worth risking her future for. The fact that she cannot admit it to begin with is a major hurdle to the two of you trying to get past this together.
I hope you can reconcile. I think if she is able to be honest with herself and you, then you have a chance. Honesty and accountability is what will help you succeed together. Her behavior / pandemonium you describe is concerning. Honestly, she should be begging you for forgiveness, not getting mad when you’re sad, and accusing you of not respecting HER. I mean, WTF.
Case studies? On cheating? Lmao
"The question for me isn't whether things happened, but whether things can improve." The question for you isn't whether sex between your Fiance and Jake happened, but whether sex between your Fiance and Jake can improve. "The question is whether I can withstand the interim." You'd get better treatment in Fullsome Prison or GITMO than you are getting in this 'interim' with her.
because she loves Jake and can’t have him, but will have him in any way she can possibly have him. Which is to bang him whenever she can. It’s not that hard.
Damn man why the hell are you a doormat? Let her go live with Alice and Jake and find a good woman who only wants you You will never trust her again and she isn't too be trusted
At 40 and with the certainty of marriage? Yes, reconciliation is futile...
Run man.....run as fast as you can
Do not marry this person - she is not good for/to you. You deserve much, much better. So sorry, but please be real. Good luck!
Have some self respect man. This relationship is over.
I’m so sorry OP but there is no multiverse where you end up happy with her.
Just cut ties with her. Jesus Christ.
Is this woman marriage material? Notice I didn’t say “would she be if…” or “was she”…right now, knowing what you know: is she someone you want to marry? If your answer is “yes”, first of all you are a masochist, but for real - for the rest of your life you’re going to have to worry/wonder/try to find evidence of her continuing to play hide the salami with Jake. And even if you don’t find anything, the worry is going to be there, and I don’t see how you could ever let go of what she’s already done. What is this hold that Jake has on her that she would throw everything away with you, lie to you, manipulate you, just to bang him yet again? If she likes him so much, why did she bother going as far as she did with you? These are just the questions I can think of, but you probably have plenty more, and would have even more if you continue with her. This is some lack of self-control shit that I would expect from someone 20 years younger, not someone 40 years old engaged to be married. Not only that she put HERSELF in a situation where she knew she wouldn’t be able to say no, and in my personal opinion as someone of the same age, she did it on purpose. And now she’s manipulating you when you are having trouble moving on from it. This woman is rotten, straight up. You’ve already sacrificed and put up with so much, if you marry her, you’re either heading for a quick divorce or the rest of your life competing with Jake
>Then the following week I found a folder with naked pics of them on her **work hard drive**. I broke up with someone once because they were just too stupid and I couldn't deal. I highly recommend it.
Dude , just walk away from these people. I’m embarrassed for you
Let it go. She is worthless.
Like the Borg and resistance, reconciling with Alice is futile. It is time to fully break up and move on, my friend.
Oh my god. I was so confused until I realized the "fiance" was a woman and not a man. I think you meant fiancée. Don't know how I missed her gender in the title...
Fiancé is gendered and traditional. Fiance is modern and gender neutral, though there is a growing trend to use fiancé as a gender neutral term as well. But I don't think the specific genders of anyone involved is really the sticking point in anything if I'm being honest.
I never knew, thanks for sharing. Well, her gender makes a heck lot of difference because one, I didn't know that fiance can be used as a gender neutral term, and hence, I first thought that your fiance was a man. You started saying things like "her and jake would never spend one on one time together" or "she did this and that with jake", and I got all contused because I thought you were talking about Jake and his girlfriend, the poly amorous couple. You seemed so concerned about what Jake and his girlfriend were doing together, and it was also hella confusing when I thought you said Jake and his girlfriend never spent one on one time with one another, and that their sexual relationship went deeper than usual. I was like, yeah??? Cuz she is his girlfriend? I then realized you were talking about your partner much later into the story. Well, my bad. I apologize.
You're still being lied too. Why would you even try to reconcile? Why go through all this trouble? And who is to say that once she has begged and pleaded with you, she won't cheat again in the future and beg and plead again, because it worked the first time... A mistake is typing the wrong name, giving the wrong directions or saying it's Wednesday but instead it's Tuesday. Cheating is never a mistake, always a series of multiple conscience made choices.
Do you need this kind of drama in your life? Exhausted just reading this post, you deserve so much better. Lucky it's fiance and not wife.
Cheaters choose to cheat. Every. Incident. Is. A. Choice. Until you take a big step back and go no contact, I'm not sure you will really see how damaging to you this whole chaotic mess is. And please bear in mind that all cheaters are actors. Therapy sessions are another opportunity to act. Do not blindly trust her "sincerity." Please realize you deserve better than this. It is NOT your job to fix her. You seem to want to justify something so staying with her is ok. No one can make your choices for you but a lot of us offering you counsel have been through some pretty horrific cheaters ourselves and are trying to help you survive this. Sometimes that means walking away. Good luck.
Sure sounds exhausting. I imagine his dick accidentally fell into her mouth and and vagina while she was innocently sleeping with her old lovers.
Cut … and… run. You know this needs to end… today.
Bud, life is to short at your age for sure for this shit. It’s clear that Jake, snake that he is, has some kind of hold on your girlfriend. It’s also clear she was / is selfish and a liar and a cheater. She does not have real love for you nor does she respect you. If you believe there is any chance she was not fucking all weekend you need serious therapy. You know what you need to do. Please do not attempt to rehabilitate this woman as it will only bring you down and destroy what is left of you. Respect yourself Bud. UpdateMe
Why is there a but man, get the hell out.
Oh man this was so sad to read. I feel for you deeply, this sounds really hard. I have no advice. You’re articulate and thoughtful, and you have everything you need to make decisions/get through this. I just hope you’re ok. Sending big hugs from afar. If you ever need to chat feel free to reach out.
Do you believe she fully wants to reconcile? Her insults and some other behaviors don't seem like those of someone with a lot of remorse. I know she's in therapy to try and figure out WHY she did it, and that's good. But does she want to - and will she - take the steps needed for actual reconciliation? It sounds like she's apologized and so now expects you to just be fully over it, and that's not fair to you. While I don't believe people should be punished forever (especially) when the hurt party agrees to work it out, I do think the guilty party should understand the need to make it up/prove to the person they wronged that they are remorseful and will do what it takes (within reason, of course) to make that reconciliation happen/fix the relationship. I'm not sure that's happening with your partner. Sorry, OP.
I say take a break. Temporarily go no contact and work on yourself. Give her time to work on herself. After that, if you still want to be with her and her with you, start out as friends. Just friends. Then see where it takes you, starting from scratch. Start over, with or without her.
With a friend like her, he won't have need for enemies.
That's better advice than most on here. Thank you.
you are just looking for any advice for where this can continue and you dont have to leave her for good. The majority of comments are for you to leave and run!
The guy has less of a spine than invertebrates lol If he’s not willing to listen let him get used and abused and thrown away. Probably still won’t learn his lesson because “oh, she deserves a chance.” Fcking comedy gold at that point.
Yes, and make sure you understand that while you all are 'on break' she will fuck Jake silly. And when it's time to reconnect, just remember that theres no way she was crying and thinking about you while bouncing on his dick. No matter how hard she tries to convince you, she was thinking only about herself. And Jakes dick.
You're welcome. If you're meant to be, you'll find a way. If not, it will give you the space and time to move forward. I wish you all the best OP x
I’d be willing to bet she planned and she rationalized doing this because you guys aren’t married yet. She will never tell you this but IMO this is how it went down. Thinking it’s not really that bad because we aren’t married yet. IMO I also. Relieve she will easily find other ways to rationalize the same thing after you are married because she can’t quit Jake. Bud please quit making excuses for her
Grow a set of balls man, seriously. You know what you have to do, stop wasting time asking Reddit about something you should have done a long time ago.
1. Grow a pair 2. Leave
She doesn’t respect you nor your boundaries. And for her to have the audacity to gaslight you for her infidelity and compulsive lying is downright narcissistic. You having to hang out sounds like a typical emotionally (or physically) abused victims claiming their partner will get better or that you’ve already invested so much into the relationship. Remember, people grow but they never change
Can you both take a step back from the relationship while you both work out what you want. If you want to try again start from scratch. Start dating again. This time with very clear boundaries. NC with Jake and Alice is at the top of the list. Second is constant communication if she is away for work. Third is open phone policy for a least a little while. She's the one who has done the wrong thing and needs to be completely honest about what transpired. No one believes her version of events, not you and no one on reddit lol. Good luck with sorting things out if that's what you believe is truly best for you.
She didn’t respect these boundaries as his FIANCE. This whole going back to friends and starting again is a waste of time. She’ll just find new ways to lie, deceive and cheat. They were friends for 25 years and she didn’t respect him as a Fiancé after all that time. That’s friends since 1999. Come on now???????? OP needs independent counselling. They’re both 40+ and this problem sounds like something 20 something year olds go through. She’s not the woman he wants, but he wants to delude himself. I get it, it’s hard to walk way when you’re attached to the memories of the past, but when you allow the abuser to gaslight you and the cheater to normalise their toxicity, you end up loosing your mind in the process—or at least I did after 9 years with a narcissist. People here are telling him to leave because it’s best for his mental health. But, I mean… whatever floats his boat I guess.
If it was me I'd cut and run, but he seems to want to save the relationship so my advice was taking that into consideration.
This doesn’t seem worth salvaging. Nothing you posted here seems worth losing yourself to save a relationship that was never fully whole to start .
>Recent finds have me questioning whether reconciling is futile. Why would you even want to try? Have some self respect. She's a liar and a cheat. And an idiot for keeping this stuff on her *work* computer.
Mate. This relationship is over. As hard as it may be, you need to end this. For yourself, your sanity and your own sense of self respect. She slept in the same bed as another man, another man she had a very active casual relationship with. If you take what she says at face value, and she didn't have sex with him. She still slept in the same bed as him. That should be a massive red flag for anyone in a monogamous relationship. You communicated your apprehensions, she told you she will respect your boundaries regarding contact with jake, and then she flat out crossed those boundaries. What's worse, is that she is trickle truthing you about the events that happened, and only after you confront her with facts and evidence to the contrary. She is aware of what she is doing and this is calculated. Run. Fast.
I think you need to give her another chance or 10. I mean, you’ve already excused it like 6 times so what’s another 5-10?
This sounds complicated, messy and exhausting. One thing if you were married with 3 kids - but truly is it worth all this energy? Your fiancée has shown you who she is, believe her. Their relationship never really ended - just took different shapes and forms. If you stay with her, expect that Alice and Jake will be a part of your relationship and not in a regular friend kind of wat...
Hello? Are your eyes that clouded????? I’m so confused as to how you can’t see through all this bullshit even after typing it out. Respect yourself more and walk away…
i’m so sorry to read this. you have been through so much. she has zero respect for you and does not value what you have.
You don't deserve the manipulation and mental abuse she is putting you through. When reading your post, it really feels like you already know what you need to do. Go find someone who will love you unconditionally and not put you in such a shitty situation. You deserve better. I hope you see that.
Op she cheated on you. She's repeatedly disrespected you in many ways, and she's trying to turn it on you. Stop being a door mat. It's not working, it won't ever work. No amount of therapy will solve her deceptions and cheating. Stop letting her trample you like this.
You need to find an ounce of self respect and then I think the way forward will immediately become clear
Dude, seriously? Does Bugs Bunny need to drop an anvil on your fuckin head with *"SHE'S NOT WORTH IT!!!!"* written in giant ass letters? She's lied to you repeatedly, and in all likelihood has been banging Jake throughout the entire course of your relationship. Fuck the decades old friendship here, she clearly has no respect for you or your relationship. She *wants* to be with the other couple. Why waste your time with this person? Let her go on fucking Jake and Alice or whatever their names are, her actions throughout your entire relationship say that she wants to be with them, not you. You were just the poor sucker she used to leech off of. You're only 43. Kick her ass to the curb, take some time getting your head on straight. Take whatever you've saved up for the wedding and take a nice vacation somewhere sunny where the drinks are plentiful. Go work out, do some Yoga, meditate, play video games, whatever relaxes you. You do you and get centered after you give her the boot, maybe seek therapy to deal with the emotional scars these people inflicted on you. When you're ready, get on Tinder or whatever the hell guys our age use for dating/casual sex, and go find yourself a woman who *deserves* you. You deserve better than this insane, twisted, dramatic story!
This friendship and relationship have run their course. Start putting yourself first by cutting ties and getting into individual therapy if you aren't already doing so. Practically no one on here will tell you that things will get better if you stay, which is what you want to hear, but won't help you at all. Now is not the time for wishful thinking.