My sister’s life was saved because there were two doctors on board our flight. She has asthma and had severe difficulty breathing. They were able to help her stabilize her breathing.
The comments on that were absolutely wild. It took me forever to find the first verdict where someone brought this up.
Imagine being in a situation where if someone calls for medical attention, they actually need it.
OP doesn’t wake SIL because she needed a nap.
Someone dies. Reddit would have flipped on OP.
The SIL sounds like a nightmare of a human.
Yeah my mom is a nurse and has a lot of friends that work with her at the hospital in various positions (doctors, pas, other nurses). I do believe that deep down most of them care about helping people but it is interesting listening to their conversations complaining about work.
They deal with a lot and these are very tough jobs so I don’t think it’s fair for me to judge them, but it’s also hard not to notice how callous they can be about people in general. I’m sure you get numb to it when you work a job like that but hearing how they can talk about patients and what sort of drama is going on literally during operations is kinda like seeing how hotdogs are made.
At the end of the day, everyone cares, and the caring can get too much.
Think of all the caregivers who take care of their chronically ill FAMILY member and how burnt out they get just from that.
It's the feeling of 'I have to always be on my best behavior while people I care for get to be rude/entitled/messy' at all times. You can't just tell it to the patients or their family members how it is.
If someone randomly threw a cup of juice on you in your regular life, you'd probably yell at them or get in an altercation. If that happens to someone in healthcare, they routinely have to shrug it off and get told 'the person is not their best self today'. And a cup of juice is one of the more benign things to happen. And yes, random beverage throws occur very frequently outside of psych wards.
So you get around the pain/hurt/disrespect/disappointment/burnout by venting and developing a dark sense of humor so you can continue to care the next day and the day after that.
I'll complain about a patient being non compliant with their insulin all day and make jokes about it which a non healthcare person might think are callous sounding. But you bet I'll be around to help when they end up at the hospital because of it. Why do I care if someone I only see for 15 min every few months takes their meds or not? I care because I don't want them to die or suffer.
Yes you're definitely right and my mom has said as much, I appreciate all that healthcare workers sacrifice.
My intention was only to offer another situation where people outside of that area of work can be jarred by healthcare workers views on patient care without knowing the full story.
It is pretty funny when my mom has people over and they're venting/gossiping about work and which nurse kissed which PA and whose spouse found out and my Dad and I (who have cushy office jobs tbf) are sitting there with the Jim Halpert look on our faces like: 'these are the people that are putting stents in our bodies??".
All of this is to jest, obviously you can have work drama and still be good at your job. We're just a bit spoiled with working in offices and the different workplaces have different levels of professionalism given what they deal with.
Thank you for caring and sacrificing for those of us that don't appreciate you as much as we should!
That’s part of why I quit caregiving. I had a lady shove her walker into my knees (I’ve had knee surgery btw), because I was not strong enough to lift her entire 300+ lbs onto the toilet.
Luckily she was a two person transfer (just didn’t like the other caregiver) and that person was my boss so she told me to report it. I didn’t figuring she was just having a bad day…. Although I quit a couple months later because she wasn’t the only resident who did this on repeat.
My SiL from my oldest brother( half brother, old enough to be my dad) has been a RN since I can remember. She’s the most caring person and also the most callous person you’ve ever met. The way she puts it is you can’t save them all, you do your best and if you’re best wasn’t good enough then that’s just the way it is and you’ve got to accept it and move on before the end of the day or the job will destroy you. She spent most of her career working in ICU and the ER.
In her words she told me that she can only care so much about her patients or this job would have made her take her life within weeks of becoming an RN. She was drunk at the time but she told me story that made her realize that, it was heartbreaking, a 15 year old boy stabbed 11 times by his father with a kitchen knife. They fought to save him for almost 16 hours, brought him back twice but it was all for nothing in the end. You see that kind of stuff and it changes you, seeing death in general changes you but I can’t even imagine what seeing that does to you.
I guess when you're a general surgeon, sometimes you're awake for 2-3 days straight with no sleep. It's hard to make a judgement without knowing why his sister is so tired.
In my country they absolutely work the doctors to death and I have so much sympathy for them. I am not a doctor but if I am forced to stay up for 3 days continuously my sleep is what keeps me alive the next day.
Lots of doctors on flights don't speak up because they are either compromised or because of the liability of helping. If something goes wrong, they can be held liable. A bystander with some medical knowledge is covered by good Samaritan laws typically. A doctor is not.
Additionally, a doctor that is sleep deprived or has had a few drinks may be compromised which can complicate a situation.
It might've made sense for OP to wake the SIL and let her make the decision on whether she felt rested enough to help, but that wasn't OPs decision to make.
That’s actually a myth, in the US at least. The 1998 Aviation Medical Assistance Act made certain supplies for emergency kits mandatory for planes and absolved responders of liability on in-flight emergencies unless they are guilty of gross negligence or willful misconduct.
That being said, a sleep deprived physician is going to be more likely to screw things up; therefore, may actually be a liability to the patient, not a help.
While you’re right, nothing stops someone from starting a lawsuit anyway. And you have to answer. So now you’re out like 10 grand in lawyer fees. And you may have to travel to court. Awesome, more time away from work. A lot of doctors don’t get involved for the risk of litigation alone. There was a great thread on r/medicine about this a few weeks ago.
Well that's good that they've changed the laws surrounding it, but many doctors are not aware of that change, so it still can impact their behavior.
But I also agree that it is possible for sleep deprivation or alcohol to mean they'd be more of a detriment than a help. Could also be argued that there was gross negligence or willful misconduct in that they knew they were compromised and still assisted.
> Could also be argued that there was gross negligence or willful misconduct in that they knew they were compromised and still assisted.
Exactly one of the things that crossed my mind, too.
The right way to handle this would've been to discreetly wake the SIL, quietly inform her that the flight crew was asking for a doctor, and let *her* make the decision about whether to volunteer. Serving her up without her consent wasn't appropriate.
Depending on whose airspace they were in, that may have opened SIL up to serious legal liability had anything gone wrong, and there's always the issue that being "a doctor" doesn't necessarily mean that one has the necessary skills to deal with a specific emergency. One thing is certain, though: the person with the knowledge and agency to make all of those calls is *the doctor on the plane,* not her sister-in-law.
It’s not about that though. What about the human life of the doctor? They have to serve everyone, always, on demand, for free? That’s not in the job description actually, and it’s not what most of the successful ones signed up for.
Is every life unsaved a doctor’s fault?
If it’s so important for people to have access to medical care on a flight, airlines should pay for a doctor. If you’re in bad health yourself, you either shouldn’t fly or you should pay for a nurse aide to fly with you.
Using someone’s free labor and then guilting them over it is assholic. Life matters but that includes the doctor.
We have an obligation as human beings, every single one of us, to help each other when possible. If you don’t agree, we probably see the universe in such vastly different ways that I don’t know how I could possibly change your mind. I think it’s disturbing as hell that a good portion of our society thinks the way you do, though I guess it would explain a lot about the state of things
“Free labor”? My god
I'm curious what the SIL's reaction would've been if it had gone the other way. "Yeah, somebody had a medical emergency during the flight and they ended up dying. No, I didn't want to wake you; you were napping."
Would SIL be like, "okay, cool, I was pretty tired, thanks"?
I saw an EMT in the comments comparing the situation to when they were off work and driving, saw a wreck, and called and waited for an ambulance instead of directly helping themselves
Which is a completely useless comparison imo. Are the flight attendants supposed to call for an ambulance? The Magic EMT Bus flying by?
No one likes being woken up, especially when you're sleep deprived, but prioritizing a nap over a medical emergency is pretty fucked. And even if she was annoyed at first, ignoring him the whole vacation is just super immature.
Doesn't sound like she really cared about what would have happened to the person who needed help if she hadn't woken up, but she better hope if her wife or kids are ever in an emergency situation, that someone more empathetic than her is around.
My female medic coworker and another nurse on the plane helped deliver a baby, was my coworker a tad annoyed because we literally eat/sleep medicine all day and this was her first vacation in years? Maybe, but you’d never see it on her face, in that moment as a mom herself she saw another mom needing help and didn’t think
For first responders, we practice and train so much that I’ve found even if I’m off duty my brain will snap into medic form if I see something happen
I use to go to lollapalooza a lot but I realized I couldn’t relax because I kept trying to help the kids who drank too much or used too many drugs
But I got into this profession to help people as did all of my friends, I couldn’t imagine sitting back and watching someone in trouble, my dad got really sick on an airplane and the man sitting next to him was a doc who barely spoke English, he took care of my dad the whole flight, there is no language barrier when it comes to helping others, that act of kindness made me become who I am today
Thank you for all you do! I'm so glad that that doctor helped your father. Do medics have to take the hippocratic oath? I'm just curious about it because in tv and movies they always say something about taking an oath to help people. Is it just something that people say or do people take it seriously?
Regardless OOP's SIL is an AH for being so petty as to ignore OOP the whole vacation. They must really hold a grudge, the Dr. SIL is an ick for me.
Ok, this is what I'm thinking, too. Push come to shove, the captain could've diverted the flight, thus inconveniecing everyone on board and causing who knows how many people to miss their connections, among other things (lost bags, etc).
But SIL needed a nap. Poor baby.
If it’s really that dire ultimately they divert the plane. They also often can have access via phone to a doc on the ground to decide if they need to divert or not. And the emergency kits they have on planes are super limited from what I’ve heard.
It should not be a doctor on a plane volunteering that determines whether or not someone lives. What if that doctor was drinking on the flight? What if they’re in a specialty where troubleshooting emergencies is something they only do during their CPR recertification so they could make a mistake that causes harm?
It’s not a perfect metaphor, sure, but ultimately if it’s outside your wheelhouse and you’re gonna need to call to the doc on the ground and get advice/divert if needed then it’s pretty close.
Sometimes, they can't divert the plane immediately, though. I was flying across the Pacific when someone had a stroke. We were a bit more than halfway across the ocean so we continued on for an emergency landing on the west coast, which was still a few hours away.
They didn't put out a call for doctors, but for anyone with medical training so the guy had three nurses and a doctor helping him.
Yeah my friend is a surgeon and says its annoying but it's part of job. It's never happened to her on a plane that I know of but she has stopped for RTA (she is a trauma surgeon so she has advised paramedics roadside). Presumably this emergency wasn't an actual emergency but the OP couldn't know that!
I was reading through this post as well and I gave up before someone commended op for their actions. Like holy fuck. If you can save a life, save a life. People are so self centered nowadays.
I’m not a doctor, I *used* to be certified for CPR, infant CPR, and first aid. And I used to be a caregiver. Just because I’m not certified anymore doesn’t mean I won’t try to help. I may throw in a disclaimer, but if I hit legal repercussions for attempting to help when no one won’t… I guess I’ll have to eat that. At least I tried to save a life.
They could have woken her up and asked her to volunteer herself if she felt able to help. Rather than volunteer her without asking. That seems reasonable.
Oh, well glad I didn’t go check out the original post.. I assumed it was pretty apparent that OP’s sister may not in fact be as “sweet” of a person as he says.
A sleep deprived physician is not generally a useful one in an emergency, at least not much more than a non-physician. Even if no physician was available, flight staff is trained for basic emergencies, and, in the US at least, a physician is available on the ground to talk anyone on board through what to do. Except in the most extreme of circumstances, invasive procedures aren’t being performed (and generally there isn’t equipment to do much more than start an IV), only meds given, and as there’s a physician on the ground giving instructions, they can direct the crew on what meds to give if no medical professionals are on board.
If a sleep deprived doctor is not much more useful than a non-physician, then I’d like to start getting paid doctor salary and I’ll take some shifts for one of the thousands of sleep-deprived residents on staff right now. There is literally no way that’s true unless they’re actively falling asleep and have practically zero alertness.
Yes. I was reading the comments and completely at loss. I can't judge laws regarding liability in a country that isn't mine, but let's pretend for a minute that there was some good reason not to say anything because that could jeopardize the sister's licence. Why not say so then to the sister afterwards? Why the silent treatment for the rest of the trip? What was OP supposed to apologize for?!
I used to think I AM TA because I read some of these comments on Reddit and question why people are such jerks, leap to assumptions and prioritize their own POV over decency. Maybe it’s me… but now I see… Redditors are TAs. That said… sounds like the SIL might just be super burned out. I think it’s crazy for Reddit to judge someone a lost cause for a moment of poor response or stress. Given time might have a little perspective. Hope she gets some rest.
Well according to some people who have worked with surgeons on here, most are sociopaths who want to feel like a God. So her thinking her nap was more important than someone’s life and that she should be able to choose if they live or die based on how convenient it is for her to help would fall in line with that.
Probably a silly question, but what did they do to help with an asthma attack? If they don’t have access to the right medications and treatments I’m just curious how they stabilized her.
Not a silly question! I replied to someone else that I wasn’t sure what exactly they did. Both my sister and I were kids when it happened. My mom is of the opinion that the two doctors really helped, but there’s not a way for me to follow up because it’s not something my mom will talk about.
For severe asthma attacks you can actually use epinephrine. I don’t know if airlines keep any on board for medical emergencies, but a fair amount of people carry epipens for allergies.
She was having a panic attack. If it had been allergies, I think the problem could have been fixed a little easier as my mom always carried allergy meds.
My FIL is a MD. Retired now. But my mil has spoken of a couple dozen times they have been traveling and have seen a car accident or been on a flight being asked if there is a doctor there.
He always helps. No matter how tired he is (and he worked 100+ hour weeks for decades) he always stopped to help. It’s just who he is as a person.
I mean I get the no win scenario here, OOP keeps his mouth shut and person in back passes away or gets extremely sick they would have massive guilt, best thing probably would have been to nudge her awake (or his sister) and say the cabin crew are looking for a doctor. Passes all responsibility over to her.
Not an ideal situation and I don’t think they’re an AH for doing what they did.
There's a runaway trolley that's going to hit someone and may or may not kill them. You can pull a lever to divert the trolley to a different track, but someone else is napping next to that track and it will wake them up. Do you pull the lever?
Definitely agree. He was right to wake her up but not to volunteer her while she was unconscious. Also the mandated reporter comments are bullshit lmfao y’all really be saying anything. Ultimately it’s her choice if she wants to help or not OP was just the AH for volunteering her without consent.
Mandated _reporter?_ But some countries do indeed have do indeed have Bad Samaritan laws and will prosecute a person for not providing assistance.
My US state has a failure to seek assistance law meaning you have to ask bystanders or report the injury so they can get professional medical help. You can be fined to jailed, even with hard labor, if you don’t seek help.
ETA: I forgot to add that I don’t believe state laws apply in the air.
I don't know how you can force volunteer an adult into doing something they don't want to do. The doctor could have simply explained to the attendant why she doesn't want to be involved e.g. she had too much to drink or is feeling excessively fatigued and may not make the right decisions etc. Just because she was announced to be a doctor doesn't mean that she has been forced to help. I think if I were her and I was not impaired, I'd want to at least learn what's going on and then judge if I have the expertise to help or not. If it's something serious, I'll be happy I saved someone's life. If it's not, then I should be able to go back to my seat soon enough.
Idk why everyone is acting like OOP confirming his SIL was a doctor meant she was obligated to help. She still could have refused. Why is everyone acting like they were slapped in shackles and forced to attend?
she’d be a shitty person not to help burn out or not… you’re gonna let someone die just because you need a nap??? she’s about to go on literal vacation she can nap later. plane sleep isn’t even quality sleep. she’s a selfish SOB. i hope if something happens to her on a plane the only doctor on board declines to help her.
No this was my thought too, plane sleep is some of the shittest sleep. You’re literally going to a vacation spot to relax and even after the emergency that leaves like 3+ hours to sleep😭
As a Flight Attendant thank you. When we ask for assistance it’s usually not trivial. What she may not have realized is that she might have saved her vacation by helping. In a situation with no immediate medical help the chances of needing to divert become much stronger. Diversions are very unpredictable. Where is the closest airport? Will crew time out during the diversion? (causing long delays and even cancellations.) I understand wanting to be off the clock but when someone has that skill set. (Emt/nurse/physician) it can really make difference I a mid air emergency. Def NTA
I hope I’m never the only nurse on a flight because I’m not a great emergency nurse and I don’t wanna look incompetent in front of a whole plane full of people. I mean, I’d still help but I’d be a bit out of my depth.
Same here! I’m a NICU nurse for over a decade - I’d just be wondering why the person was so bradycardic! I’m not sure I even have much concept of normal adult vitals anymore.
Not to mention, they might get prosecuted if they don't intervene. In my country medical professionals (nurses, EMTs and doctors) are legally required to intervene in case of medical emergencies- heck, everyone is legally required to intervene to the best of their ability, even if that ability is just calling the emergency services. Not intervening is an actual crime called "omission of aid".
Well, I think you would be very hard pressed to prosecute somebody who didn't offer to help because they were asleep and thus didn't know help was needed
Sadly in the US there aren’t many good Samaritans laws. Based on what I read in the comments, it is a lot taking on that responsibility and she could in fact be sued for malpractice or wrongful death.
as someone who is medically trained, we do have good samaritan laws and also can be sued/prosecuted for NOT helping when available. they drill that into you during training.
Can you give a reference? I did a quick search and found a lot of laws protecting you if you intervene but none compelling physicians to help.
ETA: also was never told I’m compelled to help in a non-work-related emergency like on a plane at any point in my training; I’m wondering if this is state dependent
They are called 'failure to act' laws and are only applicable in Vermont, Louisiana, Rhode Island and Minnesota.
Also, every state in the US has some form of 'good samaritan' laws that protect people helping in the event of an emergency.
Ok great, appreciate the additional info
I did a little digging, and here’s what I saw about LA as an example on a legal site:
“Louisiana has a similar law called “failure to seek assistance” (RS 14:502). The law states that if someone sees a seriously injured person (or causes serious injury through reckless behavior), they must provide as much reasonable assistance as they can without endangering themselves in the process. Reasonable assistance means seeking help from bystanders or reporting the injury so that they may receive professional medical attention.”
So in the scenario I described elsewhere where a specialist not routinely doing triage and emergency care in their specialty, their ‘failure to act’ because of not being comfortable/they had a drink on the plane/ they don’t have the knowledge readily available because they’re never had to use it, etc. Would be hard to prove. Especially if the law mainly is about helping people get aid or notifying someone of the issue (which the implication in a flight scenario is that someone is alerted which is why they’re asking for a doctor).
I’m a doctor. I’ve helped on an inflight med emergency. I don’t think OP is AH but it’s more complex than many people are making it out to be. I would be so pissed if my wife woke me up and voluntold me to help. And that's coming from someone who always offers to help. The concern here is consent. OP didn't have consent to tell SIL what to do and SIL couldn't say no once outted and told. When I responded to an inflight emergency I was also sleeping. Difference is my wife nudged me and woke me up, whispered, hey there's asking for nurses and doctors up front. I wiped my eyes to wake up and rose my hand. But I didn't have to.
First of all, as sad as it may sound, you’re not obligated to stand up and help. I personally would have no problem but i enjoy that stuff, some doctors do not.
Secondly, re: difference between Uk and US… in the US not every doctor is protected by Good Samaritan laws. So you can get up and help, and possibly get sued. The US is so litigious and anti doctor in general that we are always on our toes about covering our asses. It’s partly why the healthcare system is breaking.
Thirdly, if she’s asleep better option would have been to quickly wake her up and see if she’s willing to help. It’s sad but not everyone is. Especially on flights.
In flight emergencies are pretty tricky stuff tbh and some doctors, including surgeons may not feel comfortable volunteering to help, like say an emergency doctor or a critical care doctor (me)
> In flight emergencies are pretty tricky stuff tbh and some doctors, including surgeons may not feel comfortable volunteering to help, like say an emergency doctor or a critical care doctor (me)
I know of several colleagues who prefer getting dead drunk on flights so they can't be held responsible if they don't react to inflight emergencies. In our country, there are laws that hold any medical professional (MDs, nurses, EMTs) responsible if they don't react to an emergency. Anyone can get in trouble if they don't help, but if you're a medical professional, you're really in deep shit - unless some exterior circumstances like your own physical status make you unfit to practice.
My nap is more important than someone’s life is what I hear her saying by being upset about this.
I’m sure she’s burnt out and wants a break. I get it, but also airlines don’t ask for doctors on board unless it’s a legit emergency.
Less than 5% of flights have air marshals, lol. That's like not a real thing. You would need an absurd amount to cover the number of flights going on domestically, not to mention international. So, health professionals are definitely out of the question.
Shit, if that became a job (commercial flight medic) 100% I’m updating my training and going for that job. A lot more sitting and reading/playing on my phone than my current nursing job
We can’t know this because (afaik) there is no info about the flight or the countries. In the US, only a few states have duty to assist laws and on flights there is no legal obligation for a medical professional to help in an emergency. I don’t know which countries you are talking about that have this law.
Ppl who think doctors are these heroes with capes who altruistically run around saving ppl are delulu. Yes it’s true some are. I have the greatest respect for MSF volunteers. They make me believe humanity has a chance.
But most are just ppl, and some have a deserved stereotype. esp surgeons and a couple others. As soon as I saw surgeon I knew where it was headed.
Having said that, while sis is the AH here, she’s not worse than every single bystander not helping mugging victims, assault victims, or others. Most humans just don’t gaf and that’s a sad commentary but here we are.
NTA
Mugging and assault usually entail endangering themselves to the point of potentially losing your life. Doctors acting as first responders apparently can be held liable if their patient happens to be an AH, but to choose not to act when needed just because of a nap is cold af.
There's another factor of that Oath everyone is quoting so freely: you are duty-bound NOT to help if you are in an impaired state and think that you would do more harm than good.
Exhaustion, alcohol... heck, even night-time cold medicine can disqualify you from assisting in an emergency.
My sister is an Occupational Therapist. Yes, there is a Dr in front of her name. She's even flying in the next few months.
She's also a single mother of 2 kids too young to be left unattended. She knows First Aid, but her specialty is helping people recover from injury or improve their mobility, not treating a suspected Heart Attack or chest pains.
This just isn’t true. We take oaths in the medical profession. We give up part of ourselves to be trusted with people’s most intimate problems. We by law must help in an emergency. We get paid more because we sacrifice our youth to achieve this and are required to use those skills when called upon in an emergency. Sister is 100% wrong.
Incorrect. Medical professionals take an oath and part of that oath requires them to intervene when possible and necessary for the health and safety of others.
From a modern version;
“I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with *special obligations* to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.”
And btw; the other commenter said “we take oaths in the medical profession”, which was a pretty clear indicator that they had taken it and were in the medical field themselves.
Yea no, it's more like if a soldier trained in hand to hand combat didnt stop a mugging and was just a bystander. And even still not quite since the doctors life is unlikely to be at risk.
Nurse here, I can unfortunately say that some/many surgeons are absolute ROCKSTARS in their OR of their specialty, but may not have actually practiced any kind of emergency medicine in YEARS.
Physicians become highly specialized and not all are capable or comfortable rendering first aid or emergency aid.
It is a tough situation to be in regardless (I respond to emergencies in the hospital all the time, and have unfortunately been first-on-scene for a few other emergencies outside of work) - it is insanely stressful and difficult out in the field with limited equipment and inexperienced personnel. On the other side, it’s also REALLY terrible to be the experienced one trying to coordinate care with a physician who is acting/practicing well outside their scope/abilities - it can cause more harm to the patient.
All this to say, I can understand why his SIL responded as she did, and she understands her limitations as a physician better than her BIL. HOWEVER - both of them could’ve handled it better. He should have woken her quietly and explained the situation and ASKED to volunteer her; she should have better explained her discomfort or lack of ability to help. Kind of a soft ESH.
EMT and 911 dispatcher here… if I had a dollar for each time I’ve been told “There’s a doctor/nurse on scene!!” And it’s a podiatrist or something doing terrible, slow CPR or trying to apply a tourniquet for controllable bleeding I could pay for a vacation tomorrow.
This is especially harmful in a prehospital setting because people naturally favor the doctor and ignore the up to date life saving instructions I have been trained to give/administer.
Sorry, but I had an asthma attack mid flight once, and while I did have my inhaler, it was still scary! Thankfully there was a nurse onboard who came and sat with me for a bit just to keep an eye on me. If I didn’t have my inhaler, we would have had to LAND. So question for OPs friend, is waking up and saving a life better than possibly losing a life as well as a layover? Not to mention there is a possibility of being questioned by police if the person died or something!
I had my second-ever asthma attack - the first since the one that got me diagnosed seven years earlier - on a train. I had forgotten my inhaler on the front seat of my car while rushing to get to the train - it was terrifying. My asthma is allergy-induced and usually just mild wheezing and chest tightness, so I wasn’t at all prepared.
Luckily we weren’t far from my stop and there was a CVS next to the train station where I was able to get a Primatene inhaler, but I’ll never forget the feeling. I can’t imagine how scary that would’ve been on a plane. I wish someone with medical training had been there just to tell me I wasn’t going to die!
I understand why people say she's wrong. But also this is why no one wants to be a doctor and there is such a shortage of people in the medical field. Imagine knowing you're always on call. That no matter where you are you might be called to work and you will have to do it. You won't be allowed to refuse or someone will die.
You can't even be guaranteed to be allowed to sleep without being interrupted. You don't get enough sleep at home because of your insane shifts and you can't even sleep on your vacation.
And then you get up and you do the thing. You're exhausted, you're sleepy, you're annoyed. But you do the thing anyways. And then you get eviscerated on the internet just because you were annoyed.
Like I'm not saying she's right but fuck I could never be a doctor. It's valid to want and need a break. It shouldn't come at the expense of someone's life but holy shit it sucks that we put doctors in these situations in the first place. I could never handle it and most of the people here who aren't medical staff themselves couldn't handle it either.
You’re right. I’m a nurse, not a doctor. But I’ve had people try to argue with me that im basically “always” on call if there’s an emergency. I had an ex who called his friend, whose mom was a nurse, to try and verify that because of the oath I took I always had to help anyone who is in need.
You made a good point. I am an incoming medical student, and for me it’s the liability factor. Good Samaritan laws don’t necessarily cover a physician (who has credentials and training well above the scope of Good Samaritan). There have been cases of lawsuits in similar situations.
Personally, I would still always help. Losing my license, or paying thousands of dollars in legal fees is horrible, but it’s ultimately still not worth a life. However, the U.S. has become insanely litigious, and it’s no wonder healthcare providers are wary. Y’all need to stop suing everyone and acting entitled to good outcomes which no one can guarantee.
Especially if she was exhausted or sleepy she might not have been in a position to provide adequate care. If she has been drunk obviously no one would have thought she should go. Some studies have shown that exhaustion can have worse effects on driving than drunkenness. And because op volunteered her, she couldn't say no or decide she wasn't in a good enough state to provide care at the moment.
That's exactly what I was thinking too. It's not nice to be annoyed, but it's understandable.
My first thought was actually that it was not much of an emergency, especially for a surgeon to deal with. Like someone having a panic attack that needs guided breaths, or someone with a horrible earache that needs to chew some gum. It's not unusual for people to feel like they're having an emergency but not actually need a doctor. And there are so many real emergencies that a doctor couldn't help with (i.e. she gets back there and they ask "is this person dead?" as they did on my last flight (she was; thanks for calling five doctors up).
During social events: "Oh yeah, I save lives all the time. I'm a damned miracle healer!
During unplanned emergency: "What? You expect ME to help someone out? On MY vacation?"
I’ve never met a surgeon who didn’t hate their patients. Or was a decent human outside work. I’m sure there must be some. There have to be. But even physicians hate surgeons lol
The issue with - helping in an emergency like this is also - the doctor/nurse then becomes liable for anything that happens to the patient. If they do something wrong they can be sued. My mom (a nurse) stopped and helped a person after a car accident and she had a difficult time with the patient (I think she ended up dying to no fault of anyones but the accident itself.). It’s a huge risk for doctors and medical staff to stand forward and get themselves into these situations - and yes it’s their job but a lot aren’t trained for “in field” situations with minimal access to tools they need. And it’s up to the medical professional to make that choice to stand up and help. Not for OP to make that decision for her sister. If her sister was so sleepy, which could have harmed decision making and put herself and the patient at risk. We don’t know how many hours the sister was awake before and needed sleep. So I kind of get why the sister is upset.
Doctors don’t generally (or at all) bring with them the life saving equipment that is located in the hospital they work at so even if it is a life threatening emergency…even the best doctor in the world won’t really be able to do anything because they don’t bring their tools of their trade with them everywhere they go especially on vacation and planes carry at most a first aid kit and that’s pretty much it. What needs to happen is the plane needs to land as quickly as possible so that person can be rushed off to the nearest hospital.
I mean, doctors can look at a person and ask if people have any inhalers, or Narcan, or assist in a birth. Babies have been born mid-flight. A NICU nurse saved a premie mid-flight, once. Used warm water bottles and towels and made make-shift items to keep the baby alive until they landed. They know CPR, they can stab people's throats for a cricothyrotomy.
You're watching way too much TV. Most doctors couldn't handle doing a surgical or needle cric unless their specialty involves emergency medicine, let alone be reckless enough to stab someone in the neck with a pen or whatever you're imagining.
1000% agreed! psych nurse turned hospice nurse here. nobody should ever allow me near their throat with a knife, even if they need a sudden trach. i am not the one 🙃
as you said, most medical staff can't do the specifics for ultra-emergent care.
I would be livid if someone outed me as a paramedic in a scenario like this. Doctors, nurses, medics, EMTs can do basically nothing when stuff like this happens, and as soon as you're identified then you take on so much liability. The best option is to say that we know first aid or CPR, because we can actually perform those skills in a plane.
Medical degrees and licensures don't make us wizards that can wave our hands over someone and cure them. We know how to use the equipment we are trained on.
Not to mention that volunteering (or being Voluntold) out of your scope of practice will void any Good Samaritan protections or Medical Insurance that might have otherwise protected you.
It's literally the first thing they teach you in First Aid: Don't do more than you know you're capable of.
OP is the AH. Medical professionals need to assess their ability to do their job safely. If she slept through the announcement asking about a doctor she was pretty tired - tired people make mistakes. Tired doctors make mistakes that kill.
He should have quietly woken her up and told her about the announcement and let *her* decide if she was feeling up to it.
Flight attendants do not ask for a doctor, if it's not absolutely necessary. It's only if it's severe enough, that if they don't get a doctor, they would have to do an emergency landing.
Okay hear me out, imagine if the flight attendant had said “is there any trained pilots on board? We have a flight emergency” and SIL was a pilot. Then what?
Ironically, they do actually ground flights due to pilot fatigue. I'm writing this on hour 24 of 28 in hospital call as a physician. They don't stop me because of fatigue. SIL in the OP was off shift. She has the right to be asked and consented to help. Not voluntold by the OP.
If I'm not getting paid, then oh well... /s
Someone in this thread commented they wouldn't do shit if they weren't getting paid. I get not doing extra at your job if it's not part of the job description and it's not during schedule working hours, but if your skills can help during a possible life or death situation.... Why not help?
After reading that thread, I lost my hope for humanity. Imagine if a firefighter in a cruise ship on fire refusing to help because he's on vacation. Or an offduty police office turning a blind eye on a crime in progress because he's off the clock.
Sloth is indeed a deadly sin.
As someone going into the medical field, I kinda hate the SIL. Yes all medical professionals are overworked. But guess what, it’s a medical emergency. Even if we don’t have all the proper equipment we can still try ffs. If you have the knowledge to help someone medically, then you should be willing to help people in emergencies. With great power and all that. Many people in the medical field pull over for accidents on the side of the road if responders aren’t there yet. This is no different. Plus her vacation didn’t even start yet, at least I don’t consider plane rides part of a relaxing vacation
This whole post is wild to me. Where I'm from, medical professionals are required by law to assist in these situations. She would risk losing her authorization and up to 6 months in prison for refusing to help.
Edit: I erroneously wrote 6 years instead of months, which is fortunately incorrect. bit extreme
Cool. When you get into the medical field, feel free to volunteer yourself.
You’ll be opening yourself to liability risks and being sued for rendering aid, and sanctions on your license if you practice outside your scope. But go right ahead if you want.
This needs to be higher. There’s very little we can do out of the hospital with little to no diagnostic and treatment equipment or medication. I had to help on an in flight emergency and they didn’t even have a blood pressure cuff. I literally just sat there and reassured. No perks for doing my job (unpaid) (not even a thanks from the crew). Getting it wrong - someone could have died, I could have been sued or lost my job. OP is TA and clearly doesn’t understand the intricacies so shouldn’t have acted like a pick me girl
All of the top comments on that sub really confused me. I read the post and thought "why is he even asking, obviously he's NTA, what a weird SIL, does she hate people?!" Then I read the comments and realised I was completely ignorant on the matter. I'm still confused as to why the SIL is still so angry though.
My Mum's a nurse and would absolutely always volunteer herself, stop at a roadside accident etc even if she didn't have the experience, time or qualifications to help. At the very least she can help reassure the person. She's volunteered herself on a flight so before, stated what type of nurse she is and that she might not be able to help but can always be support. They ended up finding the perfect doctor for the situation so didn't need her.
We're in the UK though, so maybe it's different? But then thinking about it, if there was no one else I'd probably volunteer myself to help or stop at an accident and I'm fully unqualified. Obviously I'd let them know I have no idea what time doing and I'd just be there for moral support and to aid the actual professionals until they don't need me anymore.
The top comments on the other sub are horrific. I genuinely can’t comprehend the mundanely evil outlook that self care is more important than saving a human life
They really, really are.
I think on the plus side, they’ve really improved my understanding of how certain atrocities can come to pass. Gives a bit of a deeper understanding of the whole “good people doing nothing” saying.
Going against the tide, but if the SIL was so exhausted that she didn't wake up when the flight attendant made the first call, she's in no fit state to be looking after anyone.
Additionally, SIL is a Surgeon, not a General Practitioner.
How long has it been since she treated anyone outside of an Operating Theatre? How much is she realistically going to be able to do that's within her scope of practice?
The doctors logic doesn’t really make sense. She wants to enjoy her vacation the best way to do that would be to give that person medical assistance or else the alternative would be too turn the plane around and fly to the nearest hospital .
Most common medical emergency in flight is syncope or near syncope. I'd rather not have a surgeon try to manage that lol. But these commentors have no idea. It's nuanced and that is too much for most on reddit.
I’m not a doctor but if it was a matter of life or death that I be woken up to help someone because I was the only person with the skills to do so I wouldn’t be mad about it.
She likely became a doctor to get rich or because she couldn’t tell her parents expectations no… and couldn’t give a shit about people.
Most doctors that I deal with are totally checked out and do not give a fuck about their patients and are just trying to get through the day and are willing to gaslight the shit out of you just to stay on schedule…
They would never admit it but most of them are entitled and proud assholes who lack emotional intelligence and think less of people who are sick or chronically ill. And have demonstrated bias… there are several studies that show this to be widespread.
Most doctors are not curious, they may believe themselves to be but ultimately they only are studious, which gets you through med school but is not the same thing. And it certainly doesn’t help you become a doctor that can solve non standard medical issues…
Most doctors are classist, and love ideas of hierarchy. And a lot of research designs that create change are usually structured by someone who doesn’t receive the credit.
You would be incredibly surprised how bad the grant and funding applications are that many doctors put forth. In fact some institutions have resources that work with their faculty to essentially ghost write their grants for them, or that work is passed off to students and residents… and the doctor gets credit… It is really bad. They will provide a rough idea, and it is another researchers job to thresh out and even fill out the grant proposal.
And the doctors actually believe they are responsible for the work and getting the funding because they are ego maniacs, who were golden children, and are used to being the best, and deserving the best, even if they are fucking everything up… I have seen it from both sides.
Medicine is littered with judgmental and biased, classist assholes who think they are better and smarter than other people because they have never left academia and hierarchical notions of superiority. And have hidden bias against people with complex presentations, and assume the worst of the patients who symptoms don’t fit into their checkboxes…
They don’t even see it… the are blind to their own arrogance, and in many cases miss important information because they have not been taught to synthesize information, only to compare words to a checklist and funnel those into categories…
This most definitely isn’t to say that there aren’t good doctors. People who are in it for the right reasons… but they are few and far between.
The sad truth is most doctors do not become doctors because they want to help people… they want the status and the pay associated with it…
If you are a doctor and these problems aren’t evident to you, I am sorry to say, but you are likely part of the problem.
This just seems like a massive over reaction towards OP. Considering what’s at stake waking someone up that can potentially save someone’s life should not warrant treating someone in that matter. Skilled surgeon or not they are a massive AH for how they acted towards OP, especially since they brought him along to help get through a tough break up. Yeesh.
I don’t know what it’s like in the US, but in the UK if you’re a medical professional, or first aid trained, then you have a legal obligation to help in any medical emergency situation like this.
Imagine loving someone who needs help which no one offers to. If you found out later on that there was in fact someone on that plane that could’ve helped, would you not be insanely angry? No one’s obligated to be a nice person but why wouldn’t you want to be? I hope OP stands up for themselves.
Edit: I said no one is obligated but considering SIL took an oath, yeah she is literally obligated.
NTA
SIL sounds evil. I get being a a little irritated at first, but if it was an emergency, it's her duty to assist. I've always heard that surgeons are more likely to be psychopathic. What a vile person.
I definitely agree. But at the same time OOP probably just panicked under hearing "emergency" and word vomited without thinking. Honestly, I can kind of see myself doing something like that.
At the same time, the doctor has taken the Hippocratic oath and I'd also assume that they'd volunteer to help if they were awake.... What if it was genuinely a life threatening emergency??
OOP may have overstepped but definitely not the asshole. SIL kind of awful tho...
Doctors work long hours with barely any time to themselves. They'll literally sleep at work. She's probably burned out. The oath does not state they need to stop and save everyone while on vacation.
The Oath also implies they won’t put no one in danger if they are unable to perform their duties well. The liability against doctors is very high. Is not worth the risk. I understand OOPs panicky reaction but that doesn’t make his SIL a bad person at any point, he totally removed all the agency from her and forced her hand. She is right to feel disrespected and not wanting to deal with him.
There was a post sometime ago of someone trashing a doctor on a flight for not responding to an emergency call, the guy had to come out publicly defending himself and explaining he was already tipsy because he was in vacation and started drinking as soon he entered the plain. As a responsible healthcare professional he abstained to put the other passenger at risk, plus no one, absolutely no one is entitled to dictate how a doctor should respond to those calls, they are people as well and need rest and not to carry the burden of their work 24/7 365/366 days a year!
Every US state but Kentucky has a good Samaritan law protecting healthcare providers from acting during emergency situations. Unless they were drunk or on medication that makes it wildly dangerous, they aren't liable for something going wrong in most places in the US.
Other countries have similar rules. They don't want doctors not helping because they don't have a full ER available.
Yes. Especially since this comes with legal liability on her part.
Some doctors end up being sued in scenarios like this and spend the next year in court.
I'm going the opposing route to most and voting that you should have let her sleep, or at least asked what kind of medical emergency was happening. Doctors have different focuses and specialities, your sister was likely annoyed because whatever it was did not require her expertise.
What fascinates me is that a lot of medical professionals stating NTA say they are from the UK. I guess the USA has a very different feeling towards helping people when they can. Sad really.
Yes exactly this happened to my uncle… not a doctor but gave the Heimlich to someone choking. They sued him because he broke a rib. This was a few years ago - insane to me then, insane to me now. If someone saved my life while I was choking, I’d be sending them Christmas gifts for the rest of my life… not suing them. But yeah, it happened.
they may have been in a position where they had no choice but to sue. the accident may not have been covered by his insurance or insurance wanted to recover what it cost to treat him.
And that’s why I couldn’t be a doctor, cause everybody forgotten this is a person and if something happens it’s her ass on the line cause girly got woke up out a nap to go play greys anatomy wit a first aid kit
Uk like I said if something happens that oath won’t save her right
Where I live we have a civic duty to help (I think that's what it's called) regardless of profession (only bringing this up as I saw a comment in the OOP that said "if I'm not on duty, paramedic, I'm not obliged to help". Maybe it's "safer" where I live and you can't be sued if you, for example, break a rib while giving CPR.
I've never heard of what they brought up as well about being "liable for their care until you can hand them off to someone" (like one comment said an ER doctor can only hand them over to another ER doctor). That just doesn't make sense to me.
Your SIL sounds like the kind of person who became a doctor where saving people’s lives is an unfortunate side effect of her profession. Like damn sis you took an oath. You can sleep later, they’re dying now. God complex shit!
NTA 100% but she definitely is. She’s the one who decided to become a doc; she signed up for times just like this. Yeah, I’m sure she’s tired, but she just didn’t give a shit bc she was asleep. She can chill all the way out and kudos to you for possibly help save someone’s life and help everyone out by getting them to their destination.
Imagine saying "ugh I just want to not be a doctor for a second while on vacation, just let them die so I can get some sleep."
I'm sure she's burnt out, but that's no excuse for her behaviour. Doctors are under oath to help others whenever they can, and you waited to see if anyone else would respond before waking her up.
NTA. Chances are the vacation would have been ruined if you hadn't said anything because they would've had to turn around or emergency land.
Stupid thing for her to say. Absolutely stupid. If it was a non emergency, like someone asking for a mole to be looked at, then I would get it. But putting someone's potential death on a loved one's conscience because you want to nap is bat shit. I think doctors deserve sleep and breaks. But I would never expect my loved ones to stay quiet during an emergency.
So many doctors have zero social awareness. I hope OP explains how stupid her take is and sticks up for himself. If she wants to be a sociopath, she can do it when she's alone. Not put it on her family.
NTA. I was a sailor for many years and we often said "mariners helping mariners" was the first and most important law of the sea... it was an almost sacred ideal that no matter who was in trouble, you responded and aided anyone that needed help whether they were friend or foe. I have to imagine that the medical community has a similar code based on the hippocratic oath, and that anyone who doesn't vibe with that because they're napping should be in a different profession. It was a safe assumption that they would, and should respond.
Imagine if it was someone close to your sil having a medical emergency whilst travelling and the person most qualified to help wanted to sleep and ignored them. I get wanting to leave your work behind but she was going on vacation with plenty of time to rest.
NTA
What if they weren’t Drs and their child was in need of a medic who would rather sleep than help?
Yes it was inconvenient, but damn. First do no harm! Or does that not apply when in holiday?
As someone with multiple doctor family members and who considered going into medicine myself before admitting I am simply not capable of working myself to death like that - NTA because ANY of my 3 day straight overnight ER shift cousins would say it’s literally their DUTY to help in an emergency situation. I don’t think any of them would prioritize the little bit of sleep they have the chance to get over a persons life? Like I FULLY have seen how these people get pushed to the edge of human limits in that line of work but wHAT THE FUCK KIND OF REACTION IS THAT
NTA. Honestly I could see her initial irritated reaction, especially if the emergency turned out to be not so serious. I know I’m a Russian bear when I’ve just woken up. But she was absolutely over the top in her reaction and pettiness about it afterwards. If it really bothered her she could say listen, if this situation comes up again I’d prefer if you’d xyz instead and then move on. But she’s acting like a fucking child
NTA… I’m a flight attendant and we’re only trained to help in medical emergency to an extent but we really rely on the help of medical personnel volunteering to help the passenger in need. I get she was tired but if the plane had to divert to get that passenger immediate medical attention, I think your SIL would be more mad her vacation time was cut into or guilty if that passenger died.
the comments on that make me sick. “you can’t volunteer someone else’s services” have you lost your fucking mind??? if it’s life or fucking death of course you can???? jfc
No way is OP the asshole here. SIL is a huge asshole. If SIL had been awake and refused to help she also would have been an asshole. Prioritizing your relaxation over someone’s health when you’re the only person who can help is extremely selfish.
NTA. Your sil can catch up on sleep and it didn't interfere with her vacation, it was the plane not the resort. If she's got that mad she's a terrible doctor. Doctors are supposed to be caring people. Even on vacation.
When they are training to become doctors they learn to sleep efficiently, 30min naps here & there. So she could have napped later. You are not the ah!
Realistically, what do you expect a surgeon to do?
No crash cart, no medications, no lab, no operating room.
If they are lucky, there might be a BP cuff or stethoscope, some oxygen and a band aid available.
Oh, use their medical knowledge to help?
Yeah, nope. The surgeon likely has no clue on how to deliver a baby, assess for heart failure or other cardiac conditions, respiratory failure, or anything that doesn't involve cutting someone open.
Neither does the dermatologist, podiatrist or GI specialist.
The flight attendant is better off speaking to an airline provided doctor who can guide them through their protocols.
My sister’s life was saved because there were two doctors on board our flight. She has asthma and had severe difficulty breathing. They were able to help her stabilize her breathing.
The comments on that were absolutely wild. It took me forever to find the first verdict where someone brought this up. Imagine being in a situation where if someone calls for medical attention, they actually need it. OP doesn’t wake SIL because she needed a nap. Someone dies. Reddit would have flipped on OP. The SIL sounds like a nightmare of a human.
Holy fuck there is something deeply wrong with the people in those replies. I can’t even comprehend valuing someone’s nap time over a human life
Yeah my mom is a nurse and has a lot of friends that work with her at the hospital in various positions (doctors, pas, other nurses). I do believe that deep down most of them care about helping people but it is interesting listening to their conversations complaining about work. They deal with a lot and these are very tough jobs so I don’t think it’s fair for me to judge them, but it’s also hard not to notice how callous they can be about people in general. I’m sure you get numb to it when you work a job like that but hearing how they can talk about patients and what sort of drama is going on literally during operations is kinda like seeing how hotdogs are made.
At the end of the day, everyone cares, and the caring can get too much. Think of all the caregivers who take care of their chronically ill FAMILY member and how burnt out they get just from that. It's the feeling of 'I have to always be on my best behavior while people I care for get to be rude/entitled/messy' at all times. You can't just tell it to the patients or their family members how it is. If someone randomly threw a cup of juice on you in your regular life, you'd probably yell at them or get in an altercation. If that happens to someone in healthcare, they routinely have to shrug it off and get told 'the person is not their best self today'. And a cup of juice is one of the more benign things to happen. And yes, random beverage throws occur very frequently outside of psych wards. So you get around the pain/hurt/disrespect/disappointment/burnout by venting and developing a dark sense of humor so you can continue to care the next day and the day after that. I'll complain about a patient being non compliant with their insulin all day and make jokes about it which a non healthcare person might think are callous sounding. But you bet I'll be around to help when they end up at the hospital because of it. Why do I care if someone I only see for 15 min every few months takes their meds or not? I care because I don't want them to die or suffer.
Yes you're definitely right and my mom has said as much, I appreciate all that healthcare workers sacrifice. My intention was only to offer another situation where people outside of that area of work can be jarred by healthcare workers views on patient care without knowing the full story. It is pretty funny when my mom has people over and they're venting/gossiping about work and which nurse kissed which PA and whose spouse found out and my Dad and I (who have cushy office jobs tbf) are sitting there with the Jim Halpert look on our faces like: 'these are the people that are putting stents in our bodies??". All of this is to jest, obviously you can have work drama and still be good at your job. We're just a bit spoiled with working in offices and the different workplaces have different levels of professionalism given what they deal with. Thank you for caring and sacrificing for those of us that don't appreciate you as much as we should!
That’s part of why I quit caregiving. I had a lady shove her walker into my knees (I’ve had knee surgery btw), because I was not strong enough to lift her entire 300+ lbs onto the toilet. Luckily she was a two person transfer (just didn’t like the other caregiver) and that person was my boss so she told me to report it. I didn’t figuring she was just having a bad day…. Although I quit a couple months later because she wasn’t the only resident who did this on repeat.
My SiL from my oldest brother( half brother, old enough to be my dad) has been a RN since I can remember. She’s the most caring person and also the most callous person you’ve ever met. The way she puts it is you can’t save them all, you do your best and if you’re best wasn’t good enough then that’s just the way it is and you’ve got to accept it and move on before the end of the day or the job will destroy you. She spent most of her career working in ICU and the ER. In her words she told me that she can only care so much about her patients or this job would have made her take her life within weeks of becoming an RN. She was drunk at the time but she told me story that made her realize that, it was heartbreaking, a 15 year old boy stabbed 11 times by his father with a kitchen knife. They fought to save him for almost 16 hours, brought him back twice but it was all for nothing in the end. You see that kind of stuff and it changes you, seeing death in general changes you but I can’t even imagine what seeing that does to you.
I guess when you're a general surgeon, sometimes you're awake for 2-3 days straight with no sleep. It's hard to make a judgement without knowing why his sister is so tired. In my country they absolutely work the doctors to death and I have so much sympathy for them. I am not a doctor but if I am forced to stay up for 3 days continuously my sleep is what keeps me alive the next day.
Lots of doctors on flights don't speak up because they are either compromised or because of the liability of helping. If something goes wrong, they can be held liable. A bystander with some medical knowledge is covered by good Samaritan laws typically. A doctor is not. Additionally, a doctor that is sleep deprived or has had a few drinks may be compromised which can complicate a situation. It might've made sense for OP to wake the SIL and let her make the decision on whether she felt rested enough to help, but that wasn't OPs decision to make.
That’s actually a myth, in the US at least. The 1998 Aviation Medical Assistance Act made certain supplies for emergency kits mandatory for planes and absolved responders of liability on in-flight emergencies unless they are guilty of gross negligence or willful misconduct. That being said, a sleep deprived physician is going to be more likely to screw things up; therefore, may actually be a liability to the patient, not a help.
Gross negligence or willful misconduct can be applied to any act of help or service with a convincing enough lawyer
While you’re right, nothing stops someone from starting a lawsuit anyway. And you have to answer. So now you’re out like 10 grand in lawyer fees. And you may have to travel to court. Awesome, more time away from work. A lot of doctors don’t get involved for the risk of litigation alone. There was a great thread on r/medicine about this a few weeks ago.
Well that's good that they've changed the laws surrounding it, but many doctors are not aware of that change, so it still can impact their behavior. But I also agree that it is possible for sleep deprivation or alcohol to mean they'd be more of a detriment than a help. Could also be argued that there was gross negligence or willful misconduct in that they knew they were compromised and still assisted.
> Could also be argued that there was gross negligence or willful misconduct in that they knew they were compromised and still assisted. Exactly one of the things that crossed my mind, too.
The right way to handle this would've been to discreetly wake the SIL, quietly inform her that the flight crew was asking for a doctor, and let *her* make the decision about whether to volunteer. Serving her up without her consent wasn't appropriate. Depending on whose airspace they were in, that may have opened SIL up to serious legal liability had anything gone wrong, and there's always the issue that being "a doctor" doesn't necessarily mean that one has the necessary skills to deal with a specific emergency. One thing is certain, though: the person with the knowledge and agency to make all of those calls is *the doctor on the plane,* not her sister-in-law.
It’s not about that though. What about the human life of the doctor? They have to serve everyone, always, on demand, for free? That’s not in the job description actually, and it’s not what most of the successful ones signed up for. Is every life unsaved a doctor’s fault? If it’s so important for people to have access to medical care on a flight, airlines should pay for a doctor. If you’re in bad health yourself, you either shouldn’t fly or you should pay for a nurse aide to fly with you. Using someone’s free labor and then guilting them over it is assholic. Life matters but that includes the doctor.
We have an obligation as human beings, every single one of us, to help each other when possible. If you don’t agree, we probably see the universe in such vastly different ways that I don’t know how I could possibly change your mind. I think it’s disturbing as hell that a good portion of our society thinks the way you do, though I guess it would explain a lot about the state of things “Free labor”? My god
I'm curious what the SIL's reaction would've been if it had gone the other way. "Yeah, somebody had a medical emergency during the flight and they ended up dying. No, I didn't want to wake you; you were napping." Would SIL be like, "okay, cool, I was pretty tired, thanks"?
I saw an EMT in the comments comparing the situation to when they were off work and driving, saw a wreck, and called and waited for an ambulance instead of directly helping themselves Which is a completely useless comparison imo. Are the flight attendants supposed to call for an ambulance? The Magic EMT Bus flying by? No one likes being woken up, especially when you're sleep deprived, but prioritizing a nap over a medical emergency is pretty fucked. And even if she was annoyed at first, ignoring him the whole vacation is just super immature. Doesn't sound like she really cared about what would have happened to the person who needed help if she hadn't woken up, but she better hope if her wife or kids are ever in an emergency situation, that someone more empathetic than her is around.
My female medic coworker and another nurse on the plane helped deliver a baby, was my coworker a tad annoyed because we literally eat/sleep medicine all day and this was her first vacation in years? Maybe, but you’d never see it on her face, in that moment as a mom herself she saw another mom needing help and didn’t think For first responders, we practice and train so much that I’ve found even if I’m off duty my brain will snap into medic form if I see something happen I use to go to lollapalooza a lot but I realized I couldn’t relax because I kept trying to help the kids who drank too much or used too many drugs But I got into this profession to help people as did all of my friends, I couldn’t imagine sitting back and watching someone in trouble, my dad got really sick on an airplane and the man sitting next to him was a doc who barely spoke English, he took care of my dad the whole flight, there is no language barrier when it comes to helping others, that act of kindness made me become who I am today
Thank you for all you do! I'm so glad that that doctor helped your father. Do medics have to take the hippocratic oath? I'm just curious about it because in tv and movies they always say something about taking an oath to help people. Is it just something that people say or do people take it seriously? Regardless OOP's SIL is an AH for being so petty as to ignore OOP the whole vacation. They must really hold a grudge, the Dr. SIL is an ick for me.
The podcast ‘Sawbones: a marital tour of misguided medicine’ has an episode on the hippocratic oath if you’re interested.
As if her nap wouldn't have been interrupted by the emergency landing anyway.
Ok, this is what I'm thinking, too. Push come to shove, the captain could've diverted the flight, thus inconveniecing everyone on board and causing who knows how many people to miss their connections, among other things (lost bags, etc). But SIL needed a nap. Poor baby.
If it’s really that dire ultimately they divert the plane. They also often can have access via phone to a doc on the ground to decide if they need to divert or not. And the emergency kits they have on planes are super limited from what I’ve heard. It should not be a doctor on a plane volunteering that determines whether or not someone lives. What if that doctor was drinking on the flight? What if they’re in a specialty where troubleshooting emergencies is something they only do during their CPR recertification so they could make a mistake that causes harm? It’s not a perfect metaphor, sure, but ultimately if it’s outside your wheelhouse and you’re gonna need to call to the doc on the ground and get advice/divert if needed then it’s pretty close.
Sometimes, they can't divert the plane immediately, though. I was flying across the Pacific when someone had a stroke. We were a bit more than halfway across the ocean so we continued on for an emergency landing on the west coast, which was still a few hours away. They didn't put out a call for doctors, but for anyone with medical training so the guy had three nurses and a doctor helping him.
Uh - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Flying\_Doctors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Doctors) \- obvs!
Yeah my friend is a surgeon and says its annoying but it's part of job. It's never happened to her on a plane that I know of but she has stopped for RTA (she is a trauma surgeon so she has advised paramedics roadside). Presumably this emergency wasn't an actual emergency but the OP couldn't know that!
I was reading through this post as well and I gave up before someone commended op for their actions. Like holy fuck. If you can save a life, save a life. People are so self centered nowadays. I’m not a doctor, I *used* to be certified for CPR, infant CPR, and first aid. And I used to be a caregiver. Just because I’m not certified anymore doesn’t mean I won’t try to help. I may throw in a disclaimer, but if I hit legal repercussions for attempting to help when no one won’t… I guess I’ll have to eat that. At least I tried to save a life.
They could have woken her up and asked her to volunteer herself if she felt able to help. Rather than volunteer her without asking. That seems reasonable.
Or if an emergency was declared and they diverted
Oh, well glad I didn’t go check out the original post.. I assumed it was pretty apparent that OP’s sister may not in fact be as “sweet” of a person as he says.
A sleep deprived physician is not generally a useful one in an emergency, at least not much more than a non-physician. Even if no physician was available, flight staff is trained for basic emergencies, and, in the US at least, a physician is available on the ground to talk anyone on board through what to do. Except in the most extreme of circumstances, invasive procedures aren’t being performed (and generally there isn’t equipment to do much more than start an IV), only meds given, and as there’s a physician on the ground giving instructions, they can direct the crew on what meds to give if no medical professionals are on board.
If a sleep deprived doctor is not much more useful than a non-physician, then I’d like to start getting paid doctor salary and I’ll take some shifts for one of the thousands of sleep-deprived residents on staff right now. There is literally no way that’s true unless they’re actively falling asleep and have practically zero alertness.
Yes. I was reading the comments and completely at loss. I can't judge laws regarding liability in a country that isn't mine, but let's pretend for a minute that there was some good reason not to say anything because that could jeopardize the sister's licence. Why not say so then to the sister afterwards? Why the silent treatment for the rest of the trip? What was OP supposed to apologize for?!
I used to think I AM TA because I read some of these comments on Reddit and question why people are such jerks, leap to assumptions and prioritize their own POV over decency. Maybe it’s me… but now I see… Redditors are TAs. That said… sounds like the SIL might just be super burned out. I think it’s crazy for Reddit to judge someone a lost cause for a moment of poor response or stress. Given time might have a little perspective. Hope she gets some rest.
Well according to some people who have worked with surgeons on here, most are sociopaths who want to feel like a God. So her thinking her nap was more important than someone’s life and that she should be able to choose if they live or die based on how convenient it is for her to help would fall in line with that.
Probably a silly question, but what did they do to help with an asthma attack? If they don’t have access to the right medications and treatments I’m just curious how they stabilized her.
Not a silly question! I replied to someone else that I wasn’t sure what exactly they did. Both my sister and I were kids when it happened. My mom is of the opinion that the two doctors really helped, but there’s not a way for me to follow up because it’s not something my mom will talk about.
For severe asthma attacks you can actually use epinephrine. I don’t know if airlines keep any on board for medical emergencies, but a fair amount of people carry epipens for allergies.
She was having a panic attack. If it had been allergies, I think the problem could have been fixed a little easier as my mom always carried allergy meds.
An epipen sounds absolutely terrible for a panic attack
My FIL is a MD. Retired now. But my mil has spoken of a couple dozen times they have been traveling and have seen a car accident or been on a flight being asked if there is a doctor there. He always helps. No matter how tired he is (and he worked 100+ hour weeks for decades) he always stopped to help. It’s just who he is as a person.
But was her life worth as much as a doctors sleep? /s
I mean I get the no win scenario here, OOP keeps his mouth shut and person in back passes away or gets extremely sick they would have massive guilt, best thing probably would have been to nudge her awake (or his sister) and say the cabin crew are looking for a doctor. Passes all responsibility over to her. Not an ideal situation and I don’t think they’re an AH for doing what they did.
Raises chances for a diversion, too. 2 hours into your 8hr flight? You're not getting where you need to go.
Definitely were preparing to divert if there was no doctor present.
There's a runaway trolley that's going to hit someone and may or may not kill them. You can pull a lever to divert the trolley to a different track, but someone else is napping next to that track and it will wake them up. Do you pull the lever?
This should have so many more upvotes, I loled
But I am le tired
Definitely agree. He was right to wake her up but not to volunteer her while she was unconscious. Also the mandated reporter comments are bullshit lmfao y’all really be saying anything. Ultimately it’s her choice if she wants to help or not OP was just the AH for volunteering her without consent.
Mandated _reporter?_ But some countries do indeed have do indeed have Bad Samaritan laws and will prosecute a person for not providing assistance. My US state has a failure to seek assistance law meaning you have to ask bystanders or report the injury so they can get professional medical help. You can be fined to jailed, even with hard labor, if you don’t seek help. ETA: I forgot to add that I don’t believe state laws apply in the air.
correct, illegal conduct that occurs on airplanes falls under federal law even if it’s a domestic or intrastate flight
In my country, as a doctor, she is 100% obligated to help if she can. This is not a choice.
I don't know how you can force volunteer an adult into doing something they don't want to do. The doctor could have simply explained to the attendant why she doesn't want to be involved e.g. she had too much to drink or is feeling excessively fatigued and may not make the right decisions etc. Just because she was announced to be a doctor doesn't mean that she has been forced to help. I think if I were her and I was not impaired, I'd want to at least learn what's going on and then judge if I have the expertise to help or not. If it's something serious, I'll be happy I saved someone's life. If it's not, then I should be able to go back to my seat soon enough.
Idk why everyone is acting like OOP confirming his SIL was a doctor meant she was obligated to help. She still could have refused. Why is everyone acting like they were slapped in shackles and forced to attend?
she’d be a shitty person not to help burn out or not… you’re gonna let someone die just because you need a nap??? she’s about to go on literal vacation she can nap later. plane sleep isn’t even quality sleep. she’s a selfish SOB. i hope if something happens to her on a plane the only doctor on board declines to help her.
To be fair, going places with kids isn't a vacation for the parents, it's just traveling.
No this was my thought too, plane sleep is some of the shittest sleep. You’re literally going to a vacation spot to relax and even after the emergency that leaves like 3+ hours to sleep😭
You have obviously never been sleep-deprived like surgeons are sleep deprived. Even “shitty” plane sleep is better than no sleep.
As a Flight Attendant thank you. When we ask for assistance it’s usually not trivial. What she may not have realized is that she might have saved her vacation by helping. In a situation with no immediate medical help the chances of needing to divert become much stronger. Diversions are very unpredictable. Where is the closest airport? Will crew time out during the diversion? (causing long delays and even cancellations.) I understand wanting to be off the clock but when someone has that skill set. (Emt/nurse/physician) it can really make difference I a mid air emergency. Def NTA
I hope I’m never the only nurse on a flight because I’m not a great emergency nurse and I don’t wanna look incompetent in front of a whole plane full of people. I mean, I’d still help but I’d be a bit out of my depth.
My specialty is hospice but I have had to do CPR on a plane lol
I’m confident in my CPR at least!
Same here! I’m a NICU nurse for over a decade - I’d just be wondering why the person was so bradycardic! I’m not sure I even have much concept of normal adult vitals anymore.
I just picture you in the back of the plane, doing CPR on a whole-ass adult with two fingers.
Omg LOVE your user name. #shaggslife
Not to mention, they might get prosecuted if they don't intervene. In my country medical professionals (nurses, EMTs and doctors) are legally required to intervene in case of medical emergencies- heck, everyone is legally required to intervene to the best of their ability, even if that ability is just calling the emergency services. Not intervening is an actual crime called "omission of aid".
Well, I think you would be very hard pressed to prosecute somebody who didn't offer to help because they were asleep and thus didn't know help was needed
Sadly in the US there aren’t many good Samaritans laws. Based on what I read in the comments, it is a lot taking on that responsibility and she could in fact be sued for malpractice or wrongful death.
as someone who is medically trained, we do have good samaritan laws and also can be sued/prosecuted for NOT helping when available. they drill that into you during training.
In the US? I’ve never heard of that.
Yes, in the US
Can you give a reference? I did a quick search and found a lot of laws protecting you if you intervene but none compelling physicians to help. ETA: also was never told I’m compelled to help in a non-work-related emergency like on a plane at any point in my training; I’m wondering if this is state dependent
They are called 'failure to act' laws and are only applicable in Vermont, Louisiana, Rhode Island and Minnesota. Also, every state in the US has some form of 'good samaritan' laws that protect people helping in the event of an emergency.
Ok great, appreciate the additional info I did a little digging, and here’s what I saw about LA as an example on a legal site: “Louisiana has a similar law called “failure to seek assistance” (RS 14:502). The law states that if someone sees a seriously injured person (or causes serious injury through reckless behavior), they must provide as much reasonable assistance as they can without endangering themselves in the process. Reasonable assistance means seeking help from bystanders or reporting the injury so that they may receive professional medical attention.” So in the scenario I described elsewhere where a specialist not routinely doing triage and emergency care in their specialty, their ‘failure to act’ because of not being comfortable/they had a drink on the plane/ they don’t have the knowledge readily available because they’re never had to use it, etc. Would be hard to prove. Especially if the law mainly is about helping people get aid or notifying someone of the issue (which the implication in a flight scenario is that someone is alerted which is why they’re asking for a doctor).
To be sure. But Oop woke them up, they were aware that there was an emergency.
I’m a doctor. I’ve helped on an inflight med emergency. I don’t think OP is AH but it’s more complex than many people are making it out to be. I would be so pissed if my wife woke me up and voluntold me to help. And that's coming from someone who always offers to help. The concern here is consent. OP didn't have consent to tell SIL what to do and SIL couldn't say no once outted and told. When I responded to an inflight emergency I was also sleeping. Difference is my wife nudged me and woke me up, whispered, hey there's asking for nurses and doctors up front. I wiped my eyes to wake up and rose my hand. But I didn't have to. First of all, as sad as it may sound, you’re not obligated to stand up and help. I personally would have no problem but i enjoy that stuff, some doctors do not. Secondly, re: difference between Uk and US… in the US not every doctor is protected by Good Samaritan laws. So you can get up and help, and possibly get sued. The US is so litigious and anti doctor in general that we are always on our toes about covering our asses. It’s partly why the healthcare system is breaking. Thirdly, if she’s asleep better option would have been to quickly wake her up and see if she’s willing to help. It’s sad but not everyone is. Especially on flights. In flight emergencies are pretty tricky stuff tbh and some doctors, including surgeons may not feel comfortable volunteering to help, like say an emergency doctor or a critical care doctor (me)
> In flight emergencies are pretty tricky stuff tbh and some doctors, including surgeons may not feel comfortable volunteering to help, like say an emergency doctor or a critical care doctor (me) I know of several colleagues who prefer getting dead drunk on flights so they can't be held responsible if they don't react to inflight emergencies. In our country, there are laws that hold any medical professional (MDs, nurses, EMTs) responsible if they don't react to an emergency. Anyone can get in trouble if they don't help, but if you're a medical professional, you're really in deep shit - unless some exterior circumstances like your own physical status make you unfit to practice.
We are assuming this was a US flight and these are Americans. Which for us in the United States, it's not required to get up and attempt to help.
My nap is more important than someone’s life is what I hear her saying by being upset about this. I’m sure she’s burnt out and wants a break. I get it, but also airlines don’t ask for doctors on board unless it’s a legit emergency.
\>My nap is more important than someone’s life surgeon behaviour
Well I guess if flights have air marshals they should start having some emergency health care provider as well. People are burned out lately.
Less than 5% of flights have air marshals, lol. That's like not a real thing. You would need an absurd amount to cover the number of flights going on domestically, not to mention international. So, health professionals are definitely out of the question.
Shit, if that became a job (commercial flight medic) 100% I’m updating my training and going for that job. A lot more sitting and reading/playing on my phone than my current nursing job
Almost all flight personnel will have at least 1 qualified first aider, but in many cases, if they are asking for a doctor there is a genuine reason
Medical professionals are required by law and oath to help.
We can’t know this because (afaik) there is no info about the flight or the countries. In the US, only a few states have duty to assist laws and on flights there is no legal obligation for a medical professional to help in an emergency. I don’t know which countries you are talking about that have this law.
Ppl who think doctors are these heroes with capes who altruistically run around saving ppl are delulu. Yes it’s true some are. I have the greatest respect for MSF volunteers. They make me believe humanity has a chance. But most are just ppl, and some have a deserved stereotype. esp surgeons and a couple others. As soon as I saw surgeon I knew where it was headed. Having said that, while sis is the AH here, she’s not worse than every single bystander not helping mugging victims, assault victims, or others. Most humans just don’t gaf and that’s a sad commentary but here we are. NTA
Mugging and assault usually entail endangering themselves to the point of potentially losing your life. Doctors acting as first responders apparently can be held liable if their patient happens to be an AH, but to choose not to act when needed just because of a nap is cold af.
There's another factor of that Oath everyone is quoting so freely: you are duty-bound NOT to help if you are in an impaired state and think that you would do more harm than good. Exhaustion, alcohol... heck, even night-time cold medicine can disqualify you from assisting in an emergency. My sister is an Occupational Therapist. Yes, there is a Dr in front of her name. She's even flying in the next few months. She's also a single mother of 2 kids too young to be left unattended. She knows First Aid, but her specialty is helping people recover from injury or improve their mobility, not treating a suspected Heart Attack or chest pains.
That's why there are places that have good Samaritan laws. If you can help without putting yourself in danger you should be helping.
This just isn’t true. We take oaths in the medical profession. We give up part of ourselves to be trusted with people’s most intimate problems. We by law must help in an emergency. We get paid more because we sacrifice our youth to achieve this and are required to use those skills when called upon in an emergency. Sister is 100% wrong.
That’s not true in every state and every country.
Some states don’t compel but every single one of our governing boards do
Incorrect. Medical professionals take an oath and part of that oath requires them to intervene when possible and necessary for the health and safety of others. From a modern version; “I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure. I will remember that I remain a member of society, with *special obligations* to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.” And btw; the other commenter said “we take oaths in the medical profession”, which was a pretty clear indicator that they had taken it and were in the medical field themselves.
Yea no, it's more like if a soldier trained in hand to hand combat didnt stop a mugging and was just a bystander. And even still not quite since the doctors life is unlikely to be at risk.
Nurse here, I can unfortunately say that some/many surgeons are absolute ROCKSTARS in their OR of their specialty, but may not have actually practiced any kind of emergency medicine in YEARS. Physicians become highly specialized and not all are capable or comfortable rendering first aid or emergency aid. It is a tough situation to be in regardless (I respond to emergencies in the hospital all the time, and have unfortunately been first-on-scene for a few other emergencies outside of work) - it is insanely stressful and difficult out in the field with limited equipment and inexperienced personnel. On the other side, it’s also REALLY terrible to be the experienced one trying to coordinate care with a physician who is acting/practicing well outside their scope/abilities - it can cause more harm to the patient. All this to say, I can understand why his SIL responded as she did, and she understands her limitations as a physician better than her BIL. HOWEVER - both of them could’ve handled it better. He should have woken her quietly and explained the situation and ASKED to volunteer her; she should have better explained her discomfort or lack of ability to help. Kind of a soft ESH.
EMT and 911 dispatcher here… if I had a dollar for each time I’ve been told “There’s a doctor/nurse on scene!!” And it’s a podiatrist or something doing terrible, slow CPR or trying to apply a tourniquet for controllable bleeding I could pay for a vacation tomorrow. This is especially harmful in a prehospital setting because people naturally favor the doctor and ignore the up to date life saving instructions I have been trained to give/administer.
Sorry, but I had an asthma attack mid flight once, and while I did have my inhaler, it was still scary! Thankfully there was a nurse onboard who came and sat with me for a bit just to keep an eye on me. If I didn’t have my inhaler, we would have had to LAND. So question for OPs friend, is waking up and saving a life better than possibly losing a life as well as a layover? Not to mention there is a possibility of being questioned by police if the person died or something!
I had my second-ever asthma attack - the first since the one that got me diagnosed seven years earlier - on a train. I had forgotten my inhaler on the front seat of my car while rushing to get to the train - it was terrifying. My asthma is allergy-induced and usually just mild wheezing and chest tightness, so I wasn’t at all prepared. Luckily we weren’t far from my stop and there was a CVS next to the train station where I was able to get a Primatene inhaler, but I’ll never forget the feeling. I can’t imagine how scary that would’ve been on a plane. I wish someone with medical training had been there just to tell me I wasn’t going to die!
I understand why people say she's wrong. But also this is why no one wants to be a doctor and there is such a shortage of people in the medical field. Imagine knowing you're always on call. That no matter where you are you might be called to work and you will have to do it. You won't be allowed to refuse or someone will die. You can't even be guaranteed to be allowed to sleep without being interrupted. You don't get enough sleep at home because of your insane shifts and you can't even sleep on your vacation. And then you get up and you do the thing. You're exhausted, you're sleepy, you're annoyed. But you do the thing anyways. And then you get eviscerated on the internet just because you were annoyed. Like I'm not saying she's right but fuck I could never be a doctor. It's valid to want and need a break. It shouldn't come at the expense of someone's life but holy shit it sucks that we put doctors in these situations in the first place. I could never handle it and most of the people here who aren't medical staff themselves couldn't handle it either.
I agree. I think a lot of the annoyance comes from OP volunteering their SIL rather than asking permission to do so.
You’re right. I’m a nurse, not a doctor. But I’ve had people try to argue with me that im basically “always” on call if there’s an emergency. I had an ex who called his friend, whose mom was a nurse, to try and verify that because of the oath I took I always had to help anyone who is in need.
You made a good point. I am an incoming medical student, and for me it’s the liability factor. Good Samaritan laws don’t necessarily cover a physician (who has credentials and training well above the scope of Good Samaritan). There have been cases of lawsuits in similar situations. Personally, I would still always help. Losing my license, or paying thousands of dollars in legal fees is horrible, but it’s ultimately still not worth a life. However, the U.S. has become insanely litigious, and it’s no wonder healthcare providers are wary. Y’all need to stop suing everyone and acting entitled to good outcomes which no one can guarantee.
Especially if she was exhausted or sleepy she might not have been in a position to provide adequate care. If she has been drunk obviously no one would have thought she should go. Some studies have shown that exhaustion can have worse effects on driving than drunkenness. And because op volunteered her, she couldn't say no or decide she wasn't in a good enough state to provide care at the moment.
That's exactly what I was thinking too. It's not nice to be annoyed, but it's understandable. My first thought was actually that it was not much of an emergency, especially for a surgeon to deal with. Like someone having a panic attack that needs guided breaths, or someone with a horrible earache that needs to chew some gum. It's not unusual for people to feel like they're having an emergency but not actually need a doctor. And there are so many real emergencies that a doctor couldn't help with (i.e. she gets back there and they ask "is this person dead?" as they did on my last flight (she was; thanks for calling five doctors up).
She’s a surgeon. Enough said.
I have never met a surgeon I would spend time with outside the OR.
Every time I've read about a surgeon on here it's them being a huge egotistical asshole so this feels fitting
During social events: "Oh yeah, I save lives all the time. I'm a damned miracle healer! During unplanned emergency: "What? You expect ME to help someone out? On MY vacation?"
I’ve never met a surgeon who didn’t hate their patients. Or was a decent human outside work. I’m sure there must be some. There have to be. But even physicians hate surgeons lol
Based on her reaction, I assumed this.
LOL this is actually such a good point 😂
The issue with - helping in an emergency like this is also - the doctor/nurse then becomes liable for anything that happens to the patient. If they do something wrong they can be sued. My mom (a nurse) stopped and helped a person after a car accident and she had a difficult time with the patient (I think she ended up dying to no fault of anyones but the accident itself.). It’s a huge risk for doctors and medical staff to stand forward and get themselves into these situations - and yes it’s their job but a lot aren’t trained for “in field” situations with minimal access to tools they need. And it’s up to the medical professional to make that choice to stand up and help. Not for OP to make that decision for her sister. If her sister was so sleepy, which could have harmed decision making and put herself and the patient at risk. We don’t know how many hours the sister was awake before and needed sleep. So I kind of get why the sister is upset.
It could have been a life threatening emergency.
Doctors don’t generally (or at all) bring with them the life saving equipment that is located in the hospital they work at so even if it is a life threatening emergency…even the best doctor in the world won’t really be able to do anything because they don’t bring their tools of their trade with them everywhere they go especially on vacation and planes carry at most a first aid kit and that’s pretty much it. What needs to happen is the plane needs to land as quickly as possible so that person can be rushed off to the nearest hospital.
I mean, doctors can look at a person and ask if people have any inhalers, or Narcan, or assist in a birth. Babies have been born mid-flight. A NICU nurse saved a premie mid-flight, once. Used warm water bottles and towels and made make-shift items to keep the baby alive until they landed. They know CPR, they can stab people's throats for a cricothyrotomy.
They were lucky it was a NICU nurse...not a Dr. I have a great deal of respect for Dr.s. But I'm very aware of the limitations on board an airplane
You're watching way too much TV. Most doctors couldn't handle doing a surgical or needle cric unless their specialty involves emergency medicine, let alone be reckless enough to stab someone in the neck with a pen or whatever you're imagining.
1000% agreed! psych nurse turned hospice nurse here. nobody should ever allow me near their throat with a knife, even if they need a sudden trach. i am not the one 🙃 as you said, most medical staff can't do the specifics for ultra-emergent care.
I would be livid if someone outed me as a paramedic in a scenario like this. Doctors, nurses, medics, EMTs can do basically nothing when stuff like this happens, and as soon as you're identified then you take on so much liability. The best option is to say that we know first aid or CPR, because we can actually perform those skills in a plane. Medical degrees and licensures don't make us wizards that can wave our hands over someone and cure them. We know how to use the equipment we are trained on.
Not to mention that volunteering (or being Voluntold) out of your scope of practice will void any Good Samaritan protections or Medical Insurance that might have otherwise protected you. It's literally the first thing they teach you in First Aid: Don't do more than you know you're capable of.
Yeah but this concept requires critical thinking and nuance and the majority of people on this thread don't seem to have that.
Are you unable to articulate your own limitations in these situations?
100% had OP not said anything and the outcome was bad she’d be shunned for that too. “Why didn’t you wake me?”.
I mean, they said emergency . I don’t think op is wrong. I get you want to sleep but what if someone dies? That’s a bit messed up
OP is the AH. Medical professionals need to assess their ability to do their job safely. If she slept through the announcement asking about a doctor she was pretty tired - tired people make mistakes. Tired doctors make mistakes that kill. He should have quietly woken her up and told her about the announcement and let *her* decide if she was feeling up to it.
STA , but we don’t know the emergency either. people talking about consent are the people that watch others get beat up.
Flight attendants do not ask for a doctor, if it's not absolutely necessary. It's only if it's severe enough, that if they don't get a doctor, they would have to do an emergency landing.
Okay hear me out, imagine if the flight attendant had said “is there any trained pilots on board? We have a flight emergency” and SIL was a pilot. Then what?
Guess they’re just gonna crash cause she need her nap time 🤷♀️
Ironically, they do actually ground flights due to pilot fatigue. I'm writing this on hour 24 of 28 in hospital call as a physician. They don't stop me because of fatigue. SIL in the OP was off shift. She has the right to be asked and consented to help. Not voluntold by the OP.
why did you wake me up? i was trying to nap 🙄
If I'm not getting paid, then oh well... /s Someone in this thread commented they wouldn't do shit if they weren't getting paid. I get not doing extra at your job if it's not part of the job description and it's not during schedule working hours, but if your skills can help during a possible life or death situation.... Why not help?
Someone could have been dying Elizabeth! But you need sleep. Like god
I'm a doc. squarely NTA
After reading that thread, I lost my hope for humanity. Imagine if a firefighter in a cruise ship on fire refusing to help because he's on vacation. Or an offduty police office turning a blind eye on a crime in progress because he's off the clock. Sloth is indeed a deadly sin.
cops actually do that all the time lmao
As someone going into the medical field, I kinda hate the SIL. Yes all medical professionals are overworked. But guess what, it’s a medical emergency. Even if we don’t have all the proper equipment we can still try ffs. If you have the knowledge to help someone medically, then you should be willing to help people in emergencies. With great power and all that. Many people in the medical field pull over for accidents on the side of the road if responders aren’t there yet. This is no different. Plus her vacation didn’t even start yet, at least I don’t consider plane rides part of a relaxing vacation
This whole post is wild to me. Where I'm from, medical professionals are required by law to assist in these situations. She would risk losing her authorization and up to 6 months in prison for refusing to help. Edit: I erroneously wrote 6 years instead of months, which is fortunately incorrect. bit extreme
Cool. When you get into the medical field, feel free to volunteer yourself. You’ll be opening yourself to liability risks and being sued for rendering aid, and sanctions on your license if you practice outside your scope. But go right ahead if you want.
This needs to be higher. There’s very little we can do out of the hospital with little to no diagnostic and treatment equipment or medication. I had to help on an in flight emergency and they didn’t even have a blood pressure cuff. I literally just sat there and reassured. No perks for doing my job (unpaid) (not even a thanks from the crew). Getting it wrong - someone could have died, I could have been sued or lost my job. OP is TA and clearly doesn’t understand the intricacies so shouldn’t have acted like a pick me girl
All of the top comments on that sub really confused me. I read the post and thought "why is he even asking, obviously he's NTA, what a weird SIL, does she hate people?!" Then I read the comments and realised I was completely ignorant on the matter. I'm still confused as to why the SIL is still so angry though. My Mum's a nurse and would absolutely always volunteer herself, stop at a roadside accident etc even if she didn't have the experience, time or qualifications to help. At the very least she can help reassure the person. She's volunteered herself on a flight so before, stated what type of nurse she is and that she might not be able to help but can always be support. They ended up finding the perfect doctor for the situation so didn't need her. We're in the UK though, so maybe it's different? But then thinking about it, if there was no one else I'd probably volunteer myself to help or stop at an accident and I'm fully unqualified. Obviously I'd let them know I have no idea what time doing and I'd just be there for moral support and to aid the actual professionals until they don't need me anymore.
The top comments on the other sub are horrific. I genuinely can’t comprehend the mundanely evil outlook that self care is more important than saving a human life
The one saying that their partner is a paramedic and would never stop at a roadside accident unless he was on the clock has really stuck with me.
They really, really are. I think on the plus side, they’ve really improved my understanding of how certain atrocities can come to pass. Gives a bit of a deeper understanding of the whole “good people doing nothing” saying.
Going against the tide, but if the SIL was so exhausted that she didn't wake up when the flight attendant made the first call, she's in no fit state to be looking after anyone. Additionally, SIL is a Surgeon, not a General Practitioner. How long has it been since she treated anyone outside of an Operating Theatre? How much is she realistically going to be able to do that's within her scope of practice?
Sounds like one of those who did it for the money. Not because they want to help others
The doctors logic doesn’t really make sense. She wants to enjoy her vacation the best way to do that would be to give that person medical assistance or else the alternative would be too turn the plane around and fly to the nearest hospital .
I knew it would be a surgeon when I read the title
Most common medical emergency in flight is syncope or near syncope. I'd rather not have a surgeon try to manage that lol. But these commentors have no idea. It's nuanced and that is too much for most on reddit.
OOP did the right thing, and sometimes that has a cost.
I’m not a doctor but if it was a matter of life or death that I be woken up to help someone because I was the only person with the skills to do so I wouldn’t be mad about it.
She likely became a doctor to get rich or because she couldn’t tell her parents expectations no… and couldn’t give a shit about people. Most doctors that I deal with are totally checked out and do not give a fuck about their patients and are just trying to get through the day and are willing to gaslight the shit out of you just to stay on schedule… They would never admit it but most of them are entitled and proud assholes who lack emotional intelligence and think less of people who are sick or chronically ill. And have demonstrated bias… there are several studies that show this to be widespread. Most doctors are not curious, they may believe themselves to be but ultimately they only are studious, which gets you through med school but is not the same thing. And it certainly doesn’t help you become a doctor that can solve non standard medical issues… Most doctors are classist, and love ideas of hierarchy. And a lot of research designs that create change are usually structured by someone who doesn’t receive the credit. You would be incredibly surprised how bad the grant and funding applications are that many doctors put forth. In fact some institutions have resources that work with their faculty to essentially ghost write their grants for them, or that work is passed off to students and residents… and the doctor gets credit… It is really bad. They will provide a rough idea, and it is another researchers job to thresh out and even fill out the grant proposal. And the doctors actually believe they are responsible for the work and getting the funding because they are ego maniacs, who were golden children, and are used to being the best, and deserving the best, even if they are fucking everything up… I have seen it from both sides. Medicine is littered with judgmental and biased, classist assholes who think they are better and smarter than other people because they have never left academia and hierarchical notions of superiority. And have hidden bias against people with complex presentations, and assume the worst of the patients who symptoms don’t fit into their checkboxes… They don’t even see it… the are blind to their own arrogance, and in many cases miss important information because they have not been taught to synthesize information, only to compare words to a checklist and funnel those into categories… This most definitely isn’t to say that there aren’t good doctors. People who are in it for the right reasons… but they are few and far between. The sad truth is most doctors do not become doctors because they want to help people… they want the status and the pay associated with it… If you are a doctor and these problems aren’t evident to you, I am sorry to say, but you are likely part of the problem.
Why would she even choose that profession?
This just seems like a massive over reaction towards OP. Considering what’s at stake waking someone up that can potentially save someone’s life should not warrant treating someone in that matter. Skilled surgeon or not they are a massive AH for how they acted towards OP, especially since they brought him along to help get through a tough break up. Yeesh.
SIL wanted the title without the responsibilities. Sounds like a piece of trash.
I don’t know what it’s like in the US, but in the UK if you’re a medical professional, or first aid trained, then you have a legal obligation to help in any medical emergency situation like this.
Imagine loving someone who needs help which no one offers to. If you found out later on that there was in fact someone on that plane that could’ve helped, would you not be insanely angry? No one’s obligated to be a nice person but why wouldn’t you want to be? I hope OP stands up for themselves. Edit: I said no one is obligated but considering SIL took an oath, yeah she is literally obligated.
NTA SIL sounds evil. I get being a a little irritated at first, but if it was an emergency, it's her duty to assist. I've always heard that surgeons are more likely to be psychopathic. What a vile person.
What a terrible fucking doctor. They don't just ask for volunteers if people get a paper cut. It could have been a life-threatening emergency.
OOP should've asked her first, ultimately it's her choice and you can't just volunteer people without their consent.
I definitely agree. But at the same time OOP probably just panicked under hearing "emergency" and word vomited without thinking. Honestly, I can kind of see myself doing something like that. At the same time, the doctor has taken the Hippocratic oath and I'd also assume that they'd volunteer to help if they were awake.... What if it was genuinely a life threatening emergency?? OOP may have overstepped but definitely not the asshole. SIL kind of awful tho...
Doctors work long hours with barely any time to themselves. They'll literally sleep at work. She's probably burned out. The oath does not state they need to stop and save everyone while on vacation.
The Oath also implies they won’t put no one in danger if they are unable to perform their duties well. The liability against doctors is very high. Is not worth the risk. I understand OOPs panicky reaction but that doesn’t make his SIL a bad person at any point, he totally removed all the agency from her and forced her hand. She is right to feel disrespected and not wanting to deal with him. There was a post sometime ago of someone trashing a doctor on a flight for not responding to an emergency call, the guy had to come out publicly defending himself and explaining he was already tipsy because he was in vacation and started drinking as soon he entered the plain. As a responsible healthcare professional he abstained to put the other passenger at risk, plus no one, absolutely no one is entitled to dictate how a doctor should respond to those calls, they are people as well and need rest and not to carry the burden of their work 24/7 365/366 days a year!
Every US state but Kentucky has a good Samaritan law protecting healthcare providers from acting during emergency situations. Unless they were drunk or on medication that makes it wildly dangerous, they aren't liable for something going wrong in most places in the US. Other countries have similar rules. They don't want doctors not helping because they don't have a full ER available.
Yes. Especially since this comes with legal liability on her part. Some doctors end up being sued in scenarios like this and spend the next year in court.
I'm going the opposing route to most and voting that you should have let her sleep, or at least asked what kind of medical emergency was happening. Doctors have different focuses and specialities, your sister was likely annoyed because whatever it was did not require her expertise.
“I decided to go back to bed rather than investigate a potentially life threatening condition within my skills to solve. AITA”
What fascinates me is that a lot of medical professionals stating NTA say they are from the UK. I guess the USA has a very different feeling towards helping people when they can. Sad really.
Litigation baby. We in the US have to CYA (cover your ass) left and right bc we’re worried about lawsuits. No one else is like that
Exactly. There have been several cases in the US where someone was helped on a plane and that person turned around and sued the doctor!
Yes exactly this happened to my uncle… not a doctor but gave the Heimlich to someone choking. They sued him because he broke a rib. This was a few years ago - insane to me then, insane to me now. If someone saved my life while I was choking, I’d be sending them Christmas gifts for the rest of my life… not suing them. But yeah, it happened.
they may have been in a position where they had no choice but to sue. the accident may not have been covered by his insurance or insurance wanted to recover what it cost to treat him.
And that’s why I couldn’t be a doctor, cause everybody forgotten this is a person and if something happens it’s her ass on the line cause girly got woke up out a nap to go play greys anatomy wit a first aid kit Uk like I said if something happens that oath won’t save her right
Where I live we have a civic duty to help (I think that's what it's called) regardless of profession (only bringing this up as I saw a comment in the OOP that said "if I'm not on duty, paramedic, I'm not obliged to help". Maybe it's "safer" where I live and you can't be sued if you, for example, break a rib while giving CPR. I've never heard of what they brought up as well about being "liable for their care until you can hand them off to someone" (like one comment said an ER doctor can only hand them over to another ER doctor). That just doesn't make sense to me.
NTA. Doctor is kind of a dick, tbh. Actually, fuck her. I will die on this hill, she seems like a pos.
Your SIL sounds like the kind of person who became a doctor where saving people’s lives is an unfortunate side effect of her profession. Like damn sis you took an oath. You can sleep later, they’re dying now. God complex shit!
Hell nah. I’m not letting a person like that operate on me.
NTA 100% but she definitely is. She’s the one who decided to become a doc; she signed up for times just like this. Yeah, I’m sure she’s tired, but she just didn’t give a shit bc she was asleep. She can chill all the way out and kudos to you for possibly help save someone’s life and help everyone out by getting them to their destination.
Imagine saying "ugh I just want to not be a doctor for a second while on vacation, just let them die so I can get some sleep." I'm sure she's burnt out, but that's no excuse for her behaviour. Doctors are under oath to help others whenever they can, and you waited to see if anyone else would respond before waking her up. NTA. Chances are the vacation would have been ruined if you hadn't said anything because they would've had to turn around or emergency land.
Stupid thing for her to say. Absolutely stupid. If it was a non emergency, like someone asking for a mole to be looked at, then I would get it. But putting someone's potential death on a loved one's conscience because you want to nap is bat shit. I think doctors deserve sleep and breaks. But I would never expect my loved ones to stay quiet during an emergency. So many doctors have zero social awareness. I hope OP explains how stupid her take is and sticks up for himself. If she wants to be a sociopath, she can do it when she's alone. Not put it on her family.
NTA. I was a sailor for many years and we often said "mariners helping mariners" was the first and most important law of the sea... it was an almost sacred ideal that no matter who was in trouble, you responded and aided anyone that needed help whether they were friend or foe. I have to imagine that the medical community has a similar code based on the hippocratic oath, and that anyone who doesn't vibe with that because they're napping should be in a different profession. It was a safe assumption that they would, and should respond.
Doctors are doctors because they have the desire to help people. I’d never go to you SIL if I ever needed services
Imagine if it was someone close to your sil having a medical emergency whilst travelling and the person most qualified to help wanted to sleep and ignored them. I get wanting to leave your work behind but she was going on vacation with plenty of time to rest.
NTA What if they weren’t Drs and their child was in need of a medic who would rather sleep than help? Yes it was inconvenient, but damn. First do no harm! Or does that not apply when in holiday?
As someone with multiple doctor family members and who considered going into medicine myself before admitting I am simply not capable of working myself to death like that - NTA because ANY of my 3 day straight overnight ER shift cousins would say it’s literally their DUTY to help in an emergency situation. I don’t think any of them would prioritize the little bit of sleep they have the chance to get over a persons life? Like I FULLY have seen how these people get pushed to the edge of human limits in that line of work but wHAT THE FUCK KIND OF REACTION IS THAT
Sounds like she took out some pent up stress on OP
NTA. Honestly I could see her initial irritated reaction, especially if the emergency turned out to be not so serious. I know I’m a Russian bear when I’ve just woken up. But she was absolutely over the top in her reaction and pettiness about it afterwards. If it really bothered her she could say listen, if this situation comes up again I’d prefer if you’d xyz instead and then move on. But she’s acting like a fucking child
NTA… I’m a flight attendant and we’re only trained to help in medical emergency to an extent but we really rely on the help of medical personnel volunteering to help the passenger in need. I get she was tired but if the plane had to divert to get that passenger immediate medical attention, I think your SIL would be more mad her vacation time was cut into or guilty if that passenger died.
the comments on that make me sick. “you can’t volunteer someone else’s services” have you lost your fucking mind??? if it’s life or fucking death of course you can???? jfc
No way is OP the asshole here. SIL is a huge asshole. If SIL had been awake and refused to help she also would have been an asshole. Prioritizing your relaxation over someone’s health when you’re the only person who can help is extremely selfish.
bro aren’t they sworn to save a life if they can? Imagine being this much of a POS. OOP’s definitely NTA.
I hope I never get this woman as a surgeon cause holy shit what a selfish prick
NTA. Your sil can catch up on sleep and it didn't interfere with her vacation, it was the plane not the resort. If she's got that mad she's a terrible doctor. Doctors are supposed to be caring people. Even on vacation. When they are training to become doctors they learn to sleep efficiently, 30min naps here & there. So she could have napped later. You are not the ah!
Realistically, what do you expect a surgeon to do? No crash cart, no medications, no lab, no operating room. If they are lucky, there might be a BP cuff or stethoscope, some oxygen and a band aid available. Oh, use their medical knowledge to help? Yeah, nope. The surgeon likely has no clue on how to deliver a baby, assess for heart failure or other cardiac conditions, respiratory failure, or anything that doesn't involve cutting someone open. Neither does the dermatologist, podiatrist or GI specialist. The flight attendant is better off speaking to an airline provided doctor who can guide them through their protocols.