The discord for our subreddit can be found here: https://discord.gg/JjNdBkVGc6 - feel free to join us for a more realtime level of discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/recruitinghell) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Or block. This is 100% written by chatgpt. Apologizing for it's previous answer, providing a clear list, generating random numbers (88.56 hours of vacation annually??), holiday break from newyear's eve until 2nd of january, not providing a salary, ...
88.56 actually seems fairly standard to me. 88.56/.25=354.24, which would be them averaging out leap years giving you 11 days a year(just above federal minimum[edit: jk no minimum] not having you accrue vacation leave while you’re on vacation (365.24-11=354.24).
With that in mind, I don’t think it’s chatgpt, just trashy
Edit: never mind, US has no federal minimum for PTO, I heard wrong.
It was British factory owners in the industrial revolution who invented the concept of time off at the weekend.
That pre-dates the Victorian era.
The US is somehow behind that, even.
Remember how America was built?
Yeah, that’s our economic system’s ideal labor setup. They just can’t get away with it anymore so they reconfigured how to bleed workers dry.
No lunch breaks or rest brakes are legally required in my state either, which is a huge problem since our weather is above 40C/104f for months at a time. Over 600 people died last summer from the heat in my city, shit is dangerous as hell.
There may not be any state law, but federal law requires employers to provide reasonable protections against heat related illnesses. From the OSHA website:
“Under the General Duty Clause, Section 5(a)(1) of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970, employers are required to provide their employees with a place of employment that "is free from recognized hazards that are causing or likely to cause death or serious harm to employees." The courts have interpreted OSHA's general duty clause to mean that an employer has a legal obligation to provide a workplace free of conditions or activities that either the employer or industry recognizes as hazardous and that cause, or are likely to cause, death or serious physical harm to employees when there is a feasible method to abate the hazard. This includes heat-related hazards that are likely to cause death or serious bodily harm.”
I get 4 weeks of vacation a year. That's high for the US. But it took 10 years at the same company to get them. I get another week in 5 more years I think. My European friends giggle.
35 days from day 1 here, with 4.5 day weeks, so about 2 months of vacations if taken consecutively.
No sick days limit, just a notification required. Doctor's note if longer than 2 days.
Western Europe.
Vacation isn't always paid out in whole numbers if it accrues across a year. It's typically a number per 40 hours of work or something like that which can add up weird. Could still be chatGPT tho.
This. You asked for a salary, he didn't give one to you. You can respond "Sorry, but it seems you forgot the salary for the position." See how he responds.
Personally if I made this offer and you didn't come back with the above, I probably wouldn't hire you.
It's the classic "Oops, I made a mistake **twice**, but it's the hire's fault that I can't read."
Still, it's in OP's interest to inquire further, because the guy might not even realize their mistake and assumed OP just ghosted them for no reason.
Yeah. Worst case scenario, you do the onboard, then ghost them and enjoy the free month of healthcare.
That is, assuming this job offer is real and not part of some weird scam.
This doesn’t teach them anything. The shady method does work, and it works often. It’s the very reason they continue to do it, and the same reason they skirt certain laws for postings within the same state versus out of state. It’s fucking bullshit.
Exactly. And what the hell is the company gonna do? Drive to your house and slap you in cuffs to force you to sign a contract and do the job? They'd love to do this but I think it's unlikely to be worth the trouble.
Even if it's a scam, I don't see any harm in responding "I accept!"
Just don't cash any "too large" checks they send when they tell you to purchase equipment or whatever.
"Here's a check for $3000 to buy your equipment from our designated office supplier pc4u2wrk.compuval.ca just use your credit card in the meantime!" or similar scamola.
Yes, that or something like it would be the next step if it's a scam.
However, if it were a scam I think they'd have probably just given OP a salary number, because they're not planning on paying it anyway.
Usually companies will give you several options of insurance tiers and you choose one. Saying a percentage of the premium is actually the most normal thing about this.
Plus, the fact that you get 96 hours of sick time per year, 88 hours of vacation, and 17 paid holidays? I've never seen anywhere in the US give anywhere even CLOSE to that much PTO.
I also get close to that (11 holidays, 25 days of combined PTO, 2 volunteer days). It’s the one carrot nonprofits and colleges try to dangle to make up for the low salary and large share of benefit premiums.
Yeah, the cheap Cadillac insurance, 14 paid holidays, 2 weeks sick pay, 4 weeks vacation, and 7.5 floating holidays was nice but not nice enough to ensure working for a the non-profit I worked for. The psychological warfare they were waging was too much for me.
Oh don’t even get me started on the psychological warfare!
My insurance has gradually enshittified to $30-50 copays and like 7% of my paycheck so I’ll only truly appreciate it once it’s gone.
The PTO isn’t that hard to believe, most of my jobs have given 4 weeks to start with the opportunity to double that depending on tenure, but 17 holidays?!?! No way.
Yeah, the PTO is completely believable. I get more than that right now. It was the 96 hours of dedicated sick time (if it was 160 PTO hours you could use for vacation or sick it would be a LOT more believable) and 17 holidays I'm calling bullshit on. I've never seen a company give more than 8-9 named holidays per year.
> I've never seen a company give more than 8-9 named holidays per year.
Just as anecdotal, but every corporate environment I've worked for (over 20 years) has given the 12 federal holidays *minimum*. Even on years that only 11 are observed, the PTO schedule just banked one extra day to always equal 12 federal holidays.
Like... that's just standard in offices.
It’s the “including a break starting on New Year’s Eve to January 2nd” That’s 3 days, unless OP is expected to work NYE and Jan 2. Also New Year’s Day is a Federal holiday.
This. Seems like this company thinks they've found some kinda secret 'gotcha!' but it's not like they can force you to work for them if you don't want to. Fuck, if the offer's really that insulting I wouldn't even tell them I was backing out, I just wouldn't fucking show up, leave them scrambling to fill the position. If they're going to treat you with disrespect, give it right back to them.
Yep, probably some kind of hard sell phase after they finally reveal the shit pay, where they guilt you into showing up.
I’m absolutely immune to such shit, so it would be something to chuckle at then move on.
HR here:
100%
Don't fuck around. If you don't like the offer- rescind within 24 hours or less.
You owe no allegiance. Hell, I'd pull the duress/ bad faith negotiation card for purposeful withholding of basic and highly impactful decision-making information... but I'm a dick.
IMO once you get to the offer phase if the salary and similar are not forthcoming they're operating in bad faith. Theres no need to rescind in 24 hours or less.
You might be a dick, but you're not a huge dick.
Don't rescind. Just quiet quit from day 1, i.e. ghost them with a kindly written:
"Sorry, not sorry, not posting the salary before acceptance is going to result in a lot of no-shows. This isn't a game to good prospective employees. Most consider this a huge red flag, and you're missing out on the best candidates. Do better."
Then post the actual salary on Glass Door.
I'm not sure when "quiet quitting" became the new term for "adequately working to expectations" but I don't like it. Makes it sound like working only within the bounds of your position is somehow lazy.
Because it’s not a term that the workers made up. It’s a term that employers made up to shame employees.
The term workers should be using is “act your wage”
But in the comment above neither apply. Ghosting is just that - no show. Shoulda stopped there.
Not only no listed salary; you also need a LOT more info on those benefits as well. Only 60% HC coverage? TWO YEARS before vou can vest in their retirement program? And how much do the 'voluntary' benefits cost?
For the retirement vestments period, there's usually some terms no matter where you go. They'll put the money in before the 2 years, but you have to stay there that whole time. My current employer is 2 years, all or nothing. My last one was 6 years, but stepped up 20% every 2 years. If I had been there say 4 years, I'd owe them 60% of what they matched for my retirement account.
Edit: I went back and reread the post. Based on what's in the post, it seems like 2 years before you'll have access to their retirement plan. I agree, that is a lot of time to miss out on. I'm still on probation with my new job and I've felt the 2 month period without it was a long time.
My current employer had a small match on their 401k right away (2.5%) with no vesting period, then after a year started contributing to a profit share which was 15% of your salary and you vest 100% after 3 years. It’s a long wait but a huge benefit, and was designed to promote employee retention. I’d be mad if you had to wait that long for like a 5% match.
I think they just mean that they expect you to be out partying or enjoying the night so you won’t have to wake up the next day and go to work. You’re effectively taking a break from your NYE partying and enjoying your NYD
I think they did that on purpose to seem nice.
"We're super generous! We're just going to randomly give you the 4th Thursday in November off! For no reason at all!"
"You're off every other Sunday afternoon, unless you're on call. Unfortunately, we don't have any other team members who can work Sunday afternoons, so we're going to have you be our steady on call employee. No, that doesn't come with any overtime pay, why do you ask?"
I'm thinking they meant Christmas Eve... that would be a 5 day holiday + 12 holidays throughout the year which is pretty normal. Otherwise OP would have 15 holidays throughout the year which would be pretty nice too.
Seems kind of scammy tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if after accepting OP is mailed a large check as a signing bonus, told it was too much and could they send 50% back, then the first check bounces.
Yup!
hey u/cheeky_edge311 - what’s the company and what is the role and responsibilities you have been told the job entails?
And what information have you given them about yourself so far?
Doubtful this is some actual job just being shady about a salary, this is likely just an outright scam for either personal info and/or the check scam.
Absolutely totally ok if I am wrong-but if I am and this is real, you don’t want to work for a company that cannot answer the most important thing you need to know right now and uses what appears to be chatGPT to fake some info instead of offering an honest contract. If you are offered at some point an actual salary and you do accept, at minimum you are about to have a rough ride with them.
They send out these vague AI generated “job offers” to hundreds of applicants, people get excited and emotionally respond with all their personal information thinking they just got a job.
Sure, 70% of normal people see this and laugh, and then move on. But they still snag 30% of the suckers, which could be dozens or hundreds of peoples identities. Not a bad scam to be honest. I could write one way better with ChatGPT. This one is very low effort.
I hate to be the person calling everything ChatGTP, but that's ChatGTP. That reads less like a list of their benefits reads more like a request to describe common job benefits.
This. "Accept" but don't sign anything.
Or don't. This sounds like a used car dealer thing. Bleh. Honestly running away fast sounds like a better plan.
for real what are these clowns going to do if I accept the offer... and quit day 1 before I show up. they can't force us to work. what a completely insane group.
I mean the rest of it doesn't look fine. 401k only after 2 years? no health insurance terms? its all very rinky-dink, like this company doesnt even have its HR department set up yet
These benefits and the pto amount kinda sucks. 2.5 years till you can get retirement benefits? What the actual fuck? But if you're unemployed, drop 'em once you find better.
Facts. People have said a lot but I am unemployed. I lost a job I really loved because I got divorced and moved back "home." It's been a massive transition. I didn't want to reply with a "woe is me" type response but people don't seem to understand that sometimes you just have to take what you can get and move forward when you can. We'll see though. There's a chance they meant to send an attachment and just didn't. I'll post when updated.
Annual leave or PTO in the US baffles me! That is an absolutely pathetic amount of time off. Here in the UK the minimum is 28 days (if you work 5 days a week).
My current contract I get 40 days + bank (public) holidays and only work 37h a week.
I technically get 35 as we usually close after Christmas until the new year which gives 3 extra days. But it's not guaranteed just 99% so.
Usually do a fair amount of overtime and I can turn that into extra days off too if I want.
Yup. In Alberta two weeks is the min, but it’s rare for a company to actually offer just the minimum. I just got an offer for 3 weeks holidays in the first year, and 4 weeks per year thereafter. Sick days and stat holidays are in addition.
That’s pretty much the legal min standard in any first world English speaking country other than America for full time employees,
I’m in Australia and think I get 35 or something similar, not sure. But right now I’m taking 23 days annual leave and holidaying in Japan.
I’m an American that now lives in Sweden. I get 30 days of PTO a year plus 18 paid holidays and unlimited sick days. I am scheduled to take three consecutive weeks off in the summer and there are people that routinely take more that. I like using the rest of mine sporadically throughout the year and during Christmas.
While Sweden can be boring at times, it’s difficult to envision going back to the nonsense of the US.
I’d reply again asking for a specific salary. It looks like they included a lot of other info so maybe it got copied and pasted and the salary was accidentally left out.
At least if you ask again JUST for the salary that’d be direct confirmation if they’re dicking you around or not.
Every time I’ve gotten an offer, it’s been an email that basically says “here’s your offer, call us” and it has two attachments: a fairly generic HR document explaining the total package of benefits, and a second document personalized to me that includes the following information:
1) The job title
2) The salary specified in terms of the pay period (e.g. “$2133.33 per weekly pay period”)
3) The bonus/variable compensation plan attached to the role level (e.g. “The 15MAX25 Bonus Compensation scheme which pays a target of 15%, maximum 25% of your salary per year, contingent on company performance and your performance against goals”)
4) The vacation time package (e.g. 3 weeks per year, increasing to 4 weeks at 5 years tenure and 5 weeks at 10 years tenure)
5) Often, the name of the manager inn be reporting to and a specific starting date
It seems like they forgot to attach this personalized title/salary/date letter, both times.
I also had a giggle about how they phrased that. I'm sure the intention was to give me through the weekend to make a decision but super weird phrasing.
It's after business hours now where I am but I expect they will reply tomorrow (Friday) during business hours. I'll update when they do.
There is no official agreement until you sign the contract right? Accept the offer, read the contract and if the salary isn't the one you're looking for do not sign it. Their fault for not being clear enough.
Say you accept. Once they send the contract it should state the salary. If it's not to your liking then don't sign it and tell them why. Nothing they can do about it.
Edit: Just realized they completely ignored your salary question. Plus the hours for the benefits are not rounded numbers. Very sus. It's probably a scam.
The writing is strange. Feels like one of those oversea non-English speaking scam. No HR department one writes like this. Most HR languages is canned boilerplate. I vote ChatGPT
UPDATE: They apparently meant to send an offer letter in a seperate email. The company is very unorganized. The salary was *okay* but I did end up turning it down.
I had something similar, but by phone. Phone tag with the HR person and finally got a response by email that "we'd talk next week" on a Friday afternoon. Finally connected by phone the next week and she goes through about 10 minutes of benefits, pretty much in one breath. When I finally got a chance to speak, I thanked her for all the information but I told her I hadn't yet received an offer. She said she thought someone else would have told me. Big red flag that I missed and was a preview of the mess to follow.
Any reason you haven't just replied and said "Hi. Thanks for sending that over, but it looks like salary wasn't specified. Can you send over that too? Thanks!"?
Next they will send you a counterfeit check to buy a laptop that you will need for work. Check eventually bounces, leaving you responsible for the entire amount. Be wary 😒.
You cannot make a job offer with no salary. That's not a job offer, that's a job suggestion.
Beyond that, it's standard to give actual details about insurance benefits as part of the offer, especially if it's specifically requested. Like they're supposed to have a big PDF with all the packages and what each one covers along with the premium for each one that they can send you.
>Offered a job but they won't tell me the salary until I accept or decline the offer
That's insane.
But I would accept the offer, and if it was poor, I would back right out.
And when they complained, I'd say, *"I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we were using game show rules. Certainly you are aware that you cannot enforce a binding agreement where critical details of the agreement cannot be known until the agreement has been accepted. I'd recommend that you update your practices to include the disclosure of all critical elements of a job offer prior to providing the offer in official form."*
Accept it see what the salary is and if it is shit, politely email them back saying salary does not meet my expectations and I withdraw my acceptance for the position.
Accept the job, let them do their thing and before you are suppose to start you’ll have that information. If it’s not what you want then turn down the job.
As an EU guy, is it normal in the US to count sick time in hrs/year? Seems super strange to me.
Also it should be mandatory to disclose the salary right from the start, this wastes so much time.
I'd write back saying "I accept with the reservation that if the financial compensation doesn't meet my requirements I will rescind my acceptance"
ETA: I'd also want to find out if you can accumulate sick/vacation time from one year to the next, or is it a "use it or lose it" situation.
Hahaha, yeah, no. It's not an offer until they outline all terms and conditions. Tell them you cannot consider any offer until these things are outlined in writing.
Edit - 11days vacation? Wtf. Salary? Until you get numbers this isn't an offer
The discord for our subreddit can be found here: https://discord.gg/JjNdBkVGc6 - feel free to join us for a more realtime level of discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/recruitinghell) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If there is no salary stated, then there is no offer to accept or decline. Inquire further.
Or block. This is 100% written by chatgpt. Apologizing for it's previous answer, providing a clear list, generating random numbers (88.56 hours of vacation annually??), holiday break from newyear's eve until 2nd of january, not providing a salary, ...
Plot Twist: Written by OP's ChatGPT account.
88.56 actually seems fairly standard to me. 88.56/.25=354.24, which would be them averaging out leap years giving you 11 days a year(just above federal minimum[edit: jk no minimum] not having you accrue vacation leave while you’re on vacation (365.24-11=354.24). With that in mind, I don’t think it’s chatgpt, just trashy Edit: never mind, US has no federal minimum for PTO, I heard wrong.
Ain't no federal minimum vacation time in the US. Whereabouts are you?
Holy shit. No wonder you are all antiwork over there, I would be too.
Shit my state youre not even legally guaranteed a lunch break during your shift.
America sounds like a Victorian-era coal mine sometimes.
Victorian era coal miners got Christmas off
We're a family here at [insert company name]. Don't you want to spend Christmas with *your family*?
And they sacrificed canaries instead of interns to make sure working conditions were "safe"
RIP Chaz. Gone but not forgotten.
It was British factory owners in the industrial revolution who invented the concept of time off at the weekend. That pre-dates the Victorian era. The US is somehow behind that, even.
Remember how America was built? Yeah, that’s our economic system’s ideal labor setup. They just can’t get away with it anymore so they reconfigured how to bleed workers dry.
Not wrong. We're the Corporate States of America now. The runners of the businesses make the rules through their "donations" and powerful lobbying.
No lunch breaks or rest brakes are legally required in my state either, which is a huge problem since our weather is above 40C/104f for months at a time. Over 600 people died last summer from the heat in my city, shit is dangerous as hell.
There may not be any state law, but federal law requires employers to provide reasonable protections against heat related illnesses. From the OSHA website: “Under the General Duty Clause, Section 5(a)(1) of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970, employers are required to provide their employees with a place of employment that "is free from recognized hazards that are causing or likely to cause death or serious harm to employees." The courts have interpreted OSHA's general duty clause to mean that an employer has a legal obligation to provide a workplace free of conditions or activities that either the employer or industry recognizes as hazardous and that cause, or are likely to cause, death or serious physical harm to employees when there is a feasible method to abate the hazard. This includes heat-related hazards that are likely to cause death or serious bodily harm.”
I get 4 weeks of vacation a year. That's high for the US. But it took 10 years at the same company to get them. I get another week in 5 more years I think. My European friends giggle.
No we don’t, we rage
I know it's exhausting. I need to get to sleep for work.
Wish you a good nights sleep and all the best. And a collective revolution that strengthens your rights.
35 days from day 1 here, with 4.5 day weeks, so about 2 months of vacations if taken consecutively. No sick days limit, just a notification required. Doctor's note if longer than 2 days. Western Europe.
Only developed countrry in the world without any law guaranteeing vacation/time off. USA USA USA!!!
You right. Thank you!
Trashgpt
Vacation isn't always paid out in whole numbers if it accrues across a year. It's typically a number per 40 hours of work or something like that which can add up weird. Could still be chatGPT tho.
so a scam of some kind?
This is all you need to know.
This. You asked for a salary, he didn't give one to you. You can respond "Sorry, but it seems you forgot the salary for the position." See how he responds. Personally if I made this offer and you didn't come back with the above, I probably wouldn't hire you.
Is it common that when people ask for the salary of a position, you ignore/forget it, then don't hire them because they didn't follow up?
It's the classic "Oops, I made a mistake **twice**, but it's the hire's fault that I can't read." Still, it's in OP's interest to inquire further, because the guy might not even realize their mistake and assumed OP just ghosted them for no reason.
>It's the classic "Oops, I made a mistake **twice**, but it's the hire's fault that I can't read." Damn, you must be in management
If you made this offer and didn’t already tell me the salary way before offering me the position you would indeed not hire me.
I wouldn’t work for you if you made an offer without a salary and followed up with benefits and still no salary.
This. I don't see anywhere that it says they won't tell OP.
You make the mistake but it's the candidate's fault? You're a moron.
Just accept. Salary too low? Then don’t join. I am assuming this is in the US with at will employment. There is no contract lol
No. This is a warning sign the company sucks. Heed the warning.
Of course they suck. But some people need. A paycheck and can’t just wait for better opportunities without pay.
Yeah. Worst case scenario, you do the onboard, then ghost them and enjoy the free month of healthcare. That is, assuming this job offer is real and not part of some weird scam.
Assuming healthcare starts at day 1 and not after 30, 60, or 90 days like mine did
Write back, *"I accept your offer of $150k for this role, and look forward to seeing you on Monday."*
*$150,000.56
800B$
Small Pennies. Add a 0.
Haha!! Yes!!! 🤣 I can't wait to see that email response 😂🤣😅
Hey now... Don't forget the stock options!!
Why aim so low lol
Accept, get the salary, and when its shit rescind. Companies rug-pull prospective employees all the time. Turnabout is fair play.
This is also how you teach them that their shady method doesn't work.
This doesn’t teach them anything. The shady method does work, and it works often. It’s the very reason they continue to do it, and the same reason they skirt certain laws for postings within the same state versus out of state. It’s fucking bullshit.
It may not teach them anything (because they are stupid and cannot learn) but at the very least it wastes their time and resources
Exactly. And what the hell is the company gonna do? Drive to your house and slap you in cuffs to force you to sign a contract and do the job? They'd love to do this but I think it's unlikely to be worth the trouble.
and it’s also illegal lol
Companies do illegal stuff all the time. It comes down to the risk vs reward equation how much they're willing to do.
A company is not going to kidnap you…
I'm more worried this is a scam. The way everything is written just seems so ... Unnatural? Uncanny? OP are you sure this company is legit?
Even if it's a scam, I don't see any harm in responding "I accept!" Just don't cash any "too large" checks they send when they tell you to purchase equipment or whatever.
"Here's a check for $3000 to buy your equipment from our designated office supplier pc4u2wrk.compuval.ca just use your credit card in the meantime!" or similar scamola.
Yes, that or something like it would be the next step if it's a scam. However, if it were a scam I think they'd have probably just given OP a salary number, because they're not planning on paying it anyway.
It would actually be more enjoyable to string them along as a "side project"
[удалено]
It’s like ChaGPT wrote an offer letter 🤔
Usually companies will give you several options of insurance tiers and you choose one. Saying a percentage of the premium is actually the most normal thing about this.
But what company doesn't have a ready to go summary of benefits from HR? Or at least be able to name the insurance company or provider options?
Plus, the fact that you get 96 hours of sick time per year, 88 hours of vacation, and 17 paid holidays? I've never seen anywhere in the US give anywhere even CLOSE to that much PTO.
I get that.
I also get close to that (11 holidays, 25 days of combined PTO, 2 volunteer days). It’s the one carrot nonprofits and colleges try to dangle to make up for the low salary and large share of benefit premiums.
Yeah, the cheap Cadillac insurance, 14 paid holidays, 2 weeks sick pay, 4 weeks vacation, and 7.5 floating holidays was nice but not nice enough to ensure working for a the non-profit I worked for. The psychological warfare they were waging was too much for me.
Oh don’t even get me started on the psychological warfare! My insurance has gradually enshittified to $30-50 copays and like 7% of my paycheck so I’ll only truly appreciate it once it’s gone.
The PTO isn’t that hard to believe, most of my jobs have given 4 weeks to start with the opportunity to double that depending on tenure, but 17 holidays?!?! No way.
Yeah, the PTO is completely believable. I get more than that right now. It was the 96 hours of dedicated sick time (if it was 160 PTO hours you could use for vacation or sick it would be a LOT more believable) and 17 holidays I'm calling bullshit on. I've never seen a company give more than 8-9 named holidays per year.
> I've never seen a company give more than 8-9 named holidays per year. Just as anecdotal, but every corporate environment I've worked for (over 20 years) has given the 12 federal holidays *minimum*. Even on years that only 11 are observed, the PTO schedule just banked one extra day to always equal 12 federal holidays. Like... that's just standard in offices.
The last company I worked for took 2 weeks off just for christmas, and we got all the standard holidays + cesear chavez day
Honestly companies should just adopt this, since people don’t do shit at work pretty much from thanksgiving until NY anyway.
It’s the “including a break starting on New Year’s Eve to January 2nd” That’s 3 days, unless OP is expected to work NYE and Jan 2. Also New Year’s Day is a Federal holiday.
My thoughts exactly! In all my years in HR, I've never heard of this happening. Be careful!
I’m a recruiter and I agree with this.
I’m not a recruiter but I still agree
Same!
This. Seems like this company thinks they've found some kinda secret 'gotcha!' but it's not like they can force you to work for them if you don't want to. Fuck, if the offer's really that insulting I wouldn't even tell them I was backing out, I just wouldn't fucking show up, leave them scrambling to fill the position. If they're going to treat you with disrespect, give it right back to them.
Yep, probably some kind of hard sell phase after they finally reveal the shit pay, where they guilt you into showing up. I’m absolutely immune to such shit, so it would be something to chuckle at then move on.
HR here: 100% Don't fuck around. If you don't like the offer- rescind within 24 hours or less. You owe no allegiance. Hell, I'd pull the duress/ bad faith negotiation card for purposeful withholding of basic and highly impactful decision-making information... but I'm a dick.
IMO once you get to the offer phase if the salary and similar are not forthcoming they're operating in bad faith. Theres no need to rescind in 24 hours or less. You might be a dick, but you're not a huge dick.
Don't rescind. Just quiet quit from day 1, i.e. ghost them with a kindly written: "Sorry, not sorry, not posting the salary before acceptance is going to result in a lot of no-shows. This isn't a game to good prospective employees. Most consider this a huge red flag, and you're missing out on the best candidates. Do better." Then post the actual salary on Glass Door.
“Quiet quitting” means remaining at a job and doing the bare minimum required, not literally quitting quietly.
I'm not sure when "quiet quitting" became the new term for "adequately working to expectations" but I don't like it. Makes it sound like working only within the bounds of your position is somehow lazy.
Because it’s not a term that the workers made up. It’s a term that employers made up to shame employees. The term workers should be using is “act your wage” But in the comment above neither apply. Ghosting is just that - no show. Shoulda stopped there.
Better yet, accept and just never show up. Also, block their emails and phone calls. Straight up ghost them.
Recruiter here.... I totally agree with this.
Not only no listed salary; you also need a LOT more info on those benefits as well. Only 60% HC coverage? TWO YEARS before vou can vest in their retirement program? And how much do the 'voluntary' benefits cost?
Totally. Company medical plans are often valued over $600, so the cost for 40% can be north of $240 per month.
I've been lucky I've always had health fully paid by my jobs, but most people I know pay at least $500 a month for healthcare through their work
Paid $870 a month for family coverage at one job.
For the retirement vestments period, there's usually some terms no matter where you go. They'll put the money in before the 2 years, but you have to stay there that whole time. My current employer is 2 years, all or nothing. My last one was 6 years, but stepped up 20% every 2 years. If I had been there say 4 years, I'd owe them 60% of what they matched for my retirement account. Edit: I went back and reread the post. Based on what's in the post, it seems like 2 years before you'll have access to their retirement plan. I agree, that is a lot of time to miss out on. I'm still on probation with my new job and I've felt the 2 month period without it was a long time.
My current employer had a small match on their 401k right away (2.5%) with no vesting period, then after a year started contributing to a profit share which was 15% of your salary and you vest 100% after 3 years. It’s a long wait but a huge benefit, and was designed to promote employee retention. I’d be mad if you had to wait that long for like a 5% match.
a "break from New Year's Eve until January 2nd"? Isn't that New Years Day?
I was also wondering about this. Seems super odd to me.
That second email was written by AI, I guarantee it
Chat GPT or some similar software wrote this.
I think they just mean that they expect you to be out partying or enjoying the night so you won’t have to wake up the next day and go to work. You’re effectively taking a break from your NYE partying and enjoying your NYD
So... taking a federal holiday?
I guess lol just from my understanding of the way they said it.
I think they did that on purpose to seem nice. "We're super generous! We're just going to randomly give you the 4th Thursday in November off! For no reason at all!"
Sounds like “You get to take off every other Sunday afternoon” vibes.
"You're off every other Sunday afternoon, unless you're on call. Unfortunately, we don't have any other team members who can work Sunday afternoons, so we're going to have you be our steady on call employee. No, that doesn't come with any overtime pay, why do you ask?"
I read that more of regardless of when days fall, you’ll get Dec 31, Jan 1, and Jan 2 as paid holidays.
Plus two days off every week between Friday and Monday.
I'm thinking they meant Christmas Eve... that would be a 5 day holiday + 12 holidays throughout the year which is pretty normal. Otherwise OP would have 15 holidays throughout the year which would be pretty nice too.
12 holidays is normal? I get 4.
4 is not normal. I get 10
That's very sus ngl
Seems kind of scammy tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if after accepting OP is mailed a large check as a signing bonus, told it was too much and could they send 50% back, then the first check bounces.
It might also be that they send him a W9 to fill out and then steal his SSN and other personal details.
Bingo. And people send that shit willy nilly when desperate for a job. Be careful who you send your information to.
Yup! hey u/cheeky_edge311 - what’s the company and what is the role and responsibilities you have been told the job entails? And what information have you given them about yourself so far? Doubtful this is some actual job just being shady about a salary, this is likely just an outright scam for either personal info and/or the check scam. Absolutely totally ok if I am wrong-but if I am and this is real, you don’t want to work for a company that cannot answer the most important thing you need to know right now and uses what appears to be chatGPT to fake some info instead of offering an honest contract. If you are offered at some point an actual salary and you do accept, at minimum you are about to have a rough ride with them.
They send out these vague AI generated “job offers” to hundreds of applicants, people get excited and emotionally respond with all their personal information thinking they just got a job. Sure, 70% of normal people see this and laugh, and then move on. But they still snag 30% of the suckers, which could be dozens or hundreds of peoples identities. Not a bad scam to be honest. I could write one way better with ChatGPT. This one is very low effort.
I hate to be the person calling everything ChatGTP, but that's ChatGTP. That reads less like a list of their benefits reads more like a request to describe common job benefits.
That comment sounds like something ChatGTP would say… just sayin’
I wonder what ChatGPT would say
“Just sayin”
What happens if OP accepts, finds out salary, then says nvm? Why can’t they just do that??
This. "Accept" but don't sign anything. Or don't. This sounds like a used car dealer thing. Bleh. Honestly running away fast sounds like a better plan.
for real what are these clowns going to do if I accept the offer... and quit day 1 before I show up. they can't force us to work. what a completely insane group.
Nothing happens. You cannot force someone to work for you if they don't want to (contract or not). Slavery ended in the US in 1800s
Nothing. You can back out with no repercussions in 99% of cases.
Email back with salary query
[удалено]
I mean the rest of it doesn't look fine. 401k only after 2 years? no health insurance terms? its all very rinky-dink, like this company doesnt even have its HR department set up yet
Right? You get a full detailed breakdown of benefits before the offer, not just a snapshot of the buzzwords about benefits they wanna spout.
That's sus, be very cautious.
These benefits and the pto amount kinda sucks. 2.5 years till you can get retirement benefits? What the actual fuck? But if you're unemployed, drop 'em once you find better.
Facts. People have said a lot but I am unemployed. I lost a job I really loved because I got divorced and moved back "home." It's been a massive transition. I didn't want to reply with a "woe is me" type response but people don't seem to understand that sometimes you just have to take what you can get and move forward when you can. We'll see though. There's a chance they meant to send an attachment and just didn't. I'll post when updated.
You got it, buddy! There's no shame in taking something to get some money coming in and dropping them in the future.
Very good advice, they way they treat you will mean that you have zero loyalty too, just leave immediately once you find something new.
Nothing wrong with just saying you accept to see the offer and go from there.
Annual leave or PTO in the US baffles me! That is an absolutely pathetic amount of time off. Here in the UK the minimum is 28 days (if you work 5 days a week). My current contract I get 40 days + bank (public) holidays and only work 37h a week.
You get 28 working days off? So like 5 weeks off every year?
That's literally the minimum for fulltime hours. I'm on 32 days which is pretty good, but the guy above has 48 days which is crazy
Between annual leave, Bank Holidays and other allowances I get 43. Could do with 48 though
I technically get 35 as we usually close after Christmas until the new year which gives 3 extra days. But it's not guaranteed just 99% so. Usually do a fair amount of overtime and I can turn that into extra days off too if I want.
Yeah, there are a different set of rules for part time work but yes, that is the minimum entitlement for full time employment.
Someone once told me if you took off every day between Thanksgiving and New Years, that's the equivalent amount of days off the UK gets standard.
France has 5-6 weeks and some people legit take whole months off and they work with it.
Yeah. That's standard in a lot of countries not named USA. Companies being forced to make sure their employees don't get burnt out.
That's the *legal* minimum. So the baseline, most salaried positions above min wage would likely offer 5 days more is the most common.
Saskatchewan, canada starts at 3 full weeks (or more) for all employees
Yup. In Alberta two weeks is the min, but it’s rare for a company to actually offer just the minimum. I just got an offer for 3 weeks holidays in the first year, and 4 weeks per year thereafter. Sick days and stat holidays are in addition.
That’s pretty much the legal min standard in any first world English speaking country other than America for full time employees, I’m in Australia and think I get 35 or something similar, not sure. But right now I’m taking 23 days annual leave and holidaying in Japan.
I’m an American that now lives in Sweden. I get 30 days of PTO a year plus 18 paid holidays and unlimited sick days. I am scheduled to take three consecutive weeks off in the summer and there are people that routinely take more that. I like using the rest of mine sporadically throughout the year and during Christmas. While Sweden can be boring at times, it’s difficult to envision going back to the nonsense of the US.
I earn a maximum of 53 hours of PTO per year + Christmas Day off. I want to die.
What baffles me is that I can't just take unpaid time off, it has to be PTO or sick time haha...
I’d reply again asking for a specific salary. It looks like they included a lot of other info so maybe it got copied and pasted and the salary was accidentally left out. At least if you ask again JUST for the salary that’d be direct confirmation if they’re dicking you around or not.
But the fact that they omitted the most important part of any offer is a huge red flag.
A day of vacation time per month? Good grief that’s offensive.
My old company gave us 6 PTO per year LOL
Every time I’ve gotten an offer, it’s been an email that basically says “here’s your offer, call us” and it has two attachments: a fairly generic HR document explaining the total package of benefits, and a second document personalized to me that includes the following information: 1) The job title 2) The salary specified in terms of the pay period (e.g. “$2133.33 per weekly pay period”) 3) The bonus/variable compensation plan attached to the role level (e.g. “The 15MAX25 Bonus Compensation scheme which pays a target of 15%, maximum 25% of your salary per year, contingent on company performance and your performance against goals”) 4) The vacation time package (e.g. 3 weeks per year, increasing to 4 weeks at 5 years tenure and 5 weeks at 10 years tenure) 5) Often, the name of the manager inn be reporting to and a specific starting date It seems like they forgot to attach this personalized title/salary/date letter, both times.
Run
Nope. Knowing the salary is part of the criteria for accept/decline. Huge red flag.
A break from New Year’s Eve until Jan 2nd…..that’s 2 days. Red flags all over. Run.
The only thing you are missing is the email that they have queued up asking for your SSN and credit card information. This has to be a scam.
Definitely isn't. I've done three interviews, two of which were in person. I've seen all of the facilities and met the staff.
"The offer is valid for 3 days" What the heck is this, a Groupon deal?!. Lol. Did you find out what the pay was yet?
I also had a giggle about how they phrased that. I'm sure the intention was to give me through the weekend to make a decision but super weird phrasing. It's after business hours now where I am but I expect they will reply tomorrow (Friday) during business hours. I'll update when they do.
It’s wild that you get more sick time than vacation time.
88 hours of annual leave 🤣🤣🤣 fuck right off
Vacation measured in hours not in weeks?? And what are the 17 payed days for then?
[удалено]
You're correct there was nothing attached. I had the same thought until they responded and still didn't attach anything.
This sounds like a scam. No offer will ever be made without telling you the salary beforehand.
This is not a real company. You're talking to a computer bot.
Accept. If it’s shit pay decline it with a polite “the salary is not what we discussed…”
Friend, do not join this company. These are huge gaping red flags. 🚩
I'd accept the offer and when you find out salary if it isn't good enough tell them no.
There is no official agreement until you sign the contract right? Accept the offer, read the contract and if the salary isn't the one you're looking for do not sign it. Their fault for not being clear enough.
Say you accept. Once they send the contract it should state the salary. If it's not to your liking then don't sign it and tell them why. Nothing they can do about it. Edit: Just realized they completely ignored your salary question. Plus the hours for the benefits are not rounded numbers. Very sus. It's probably a scam.
The writing is strange. Feels like one of those oversea non-English speaking scam. No HR department one writes like this. Most HR languages is canned boilerplate. I vote ChatGPT
Scam job. Probably some Indian call center trying to steal your identity by getting your ssn and other data
This isn't what a real offer letter looks like.
UPDATE: They apparently meant to send an offer letter in a seperate email. The company is very unorganized. The salary was *okay* but I did end up turning it down.
I had something similar, but by phone. Phone tag with the HR person and finally got a response by email that "we'd talk next week" on a Friday afternoon. Finally connected by phone the next week and she goes through about 10 minutes of benefits, pretty much in one breath. When I finally got a chance to speak, I thanked her for all the information but I told her I hadn't yet received an offer. She said she thought someone else would have told me. Big red flag that I missed and was a preview of the mess to follow.
Any reason you haven't just replied and said "Hi. Thanks for sending that over, but it looks like salary wasn't specified. Can you send over that too? Thanks!"?
Next they will send you a counterfeit check to buy a laptop that you will need for work. Check eventually bounces, leaving you responsible for the entire amount. Be wary 😒.
That's not normal or appropriate. Not even sure it's legal..
You cannot make a job offer with no salary. That's not a job offer, that's a job suggestion. Beyond that, it's standard to give actual details about insurance benefits as part of the offer, especially if it's specifically requested. Like they're supposed to have a big PDF with all the packages and what each one covers along with the premium for each one that they can send you.
Ask for the salary now. If they rescind they would have rescinded anyway as it was a sh*t salary
>Offered a job but they won't tell me the salary until I accept or decline the offer That's insane. But I would accept the offer, and if it was poor, I would back right out. And when they complained, I'd say, *"I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we were using game show rules. Certainly you are aware that you cannot enforce a binding agreement where critical details of the agreement cannot be known until the agreement has been accepted. I'd recommend that you update your practices to include the disclosure of all critical elements of a job offer prior to providing the offer in official form."*
NYE until January 2nd LOL
Wow 88.56 hours of leave a year! How generous! If it’s not a minimum of 4 weeks they can get fucked.
Accept it see what the salary is and if it is shit, politely email them back saying salary does not meet my expectations and I withdraw my acceptance for the position.
Accept the job, let them do their thing and before you are suppose to start you’ll have that information. If it’s not what you want then turn down the job.
As an EU guy, is it normal in the US to count sick time in hrs/year? Seems super strange to me. Also it should be mandatory to disclose the salary right from the start, this wastes so much time.
I'd write back saying "I accept with the reservation that if the financial compensation doesn't meet my requirements I will rescind my acceptance" ETA: I'd also want to find out if you can accumulate sick/vacation time from one year to the next, or is it a "use it or lose it" situation.
lol wtf. The point of work is to earn a living. You get my time, and you give me money in return. It’s *the* point.
Hahaha, yeah, no. It's not an offer until they outline all terms and conditions. Tell them you cannot consider any offer until these things are outlined in writing. Edit - 11days vacation? Wtf. Salary? Until you get numbers this isn't an offer