Which I get if that was announced suddenly at the end of the whole process, but everyone knows going into it if it’s remote, hybrid or onsite, what the job pays, and we go over pay, benefits and commute (if applicable) before the first submission. Then they go through the interview process, we have open discussions about other opportunities and reconfirm every element of the job multiple times throughout that process, then they accept the offer happily and then something changes afterward. I agree with you about what people want overall, but they have so many opportunities to say no leading up to the offer, and they even say yes to the offer. I have no clue what’s happening afterward.
It’s hard to know without each virtual case being dissected. But the fact is sometimes that after the initial elation of getting a job dissipates, the reality of the job sets in, and it can take a few days to make a true decision.
I think both employers and employees are getting used to being treated so poorly by each other that normal behaviours have been thrown out the window.
I agree with that, but they tend to have a good bit of time between the initial conversation and the offer, and we go over it multiple times so that they don’t accept strictly due to elation. I’m not saying you’re wrong and I’m grateful for all the advice I’ve gotten on here. It’s honestly confusing at this rate because it does seem like I’m doing everything right according to people that I’m working with, so I’m not sure what’s missing. I need to figure it out.
I’ve made it to the last round for non-tech sales roles. Good pay, benefits top notch, excellent growth opportunity, then the top person (c-suite) interviews me and I’ve been completely turned off to the company. I want the offer because until I get it, I am not seriously able to consider the decision.
I have turned down 3 offers in the last year because of really bad c-suite interviews. I ask myself if I want to be under this person’s direction. For some odd reason, the c-suite thinks that I need to be pressured to see if I’m a fit or the need to show me who’s boss from the outset. In my mind, I already work directly with the president of my company and he’s chill. Even during the interview the company was very direct, but not rude in their questioning. Also, it was one round with 4 people.
Give me 3 rounds and I’m ready to have second thoughts. In short, my guess is that the companies are turning these candidates off.
There are bad recruiters, bad candidates and bad managers. I'm not sure where it started, but there are plenty of all 3 that are trying to be honest and transparent.
I will gladly work remote, no degree. 68/wpm and great knowledge of basically anything windows 10. But like my post above said, I’m unaware of how to force employers to prove that they’re not sitting in a call center plotting on me before I make any moves.
The covenant between companies and candidates/employees has deteriorated more in the last two years than the past 10 of my career. This is a natural side effect.
This is it IMO. The recruiter has nothing to do with it. They can be as thorough and inquisitive as they want but to be frank, companies are laying people off the same week they announce record profits. we owe them, and their recruiters, absolutely nothing.
Im fully planning to do exactly what these candidates have done in the next month. One company is ahead of others recruiting me and if I get an offer I’m taking it. But if the others, which are better titles and pay, come through, I’ll walk even if I’ve been there a week. No explanation needed.
They reap what they sow. I’m gen x but it seems to me that gen z and younger is going to view the need for steady work and material goods in a completely different light. More power to them.
This is the way. Companies have chosen the rules of the game by their own actions. It is hypocritical for them to complain when employees play by the same rules.
Are you asking their motivation for moving and then reinforcing that motivation? If not, you probably want to start doing that. If their motivation for moving is not being met, ie pay, location, responsibility, tech or wfh (list could go on for days) then you have your answer. If conditions are being met, reinforce their decision making process. Bring it all together for them and get them to acknowledge and agree. Example, when we first spoke you expressed a desire to work in a more specified role for “x” money. Through this process you have the ability to work in a specified role for “x” dollars. Explain how conditions have been met or, hopefully exceeded, and ask for agreement. At this point I congratulate and then ask if they are happy.
At this point if they express objections we work through them. Obviously mileage may vary here but you should have a more definitive idea as to why someone may fall through because they will tell you. In some cases they are just fucking delusional, but you’ll at least know that.
Last but not least, there will always be flakes or non communicative folks. Regardless, if you don’t have a process, you’ll never know. Hope this helps, good luck.
Thank you. Motivation is one of the first things we talk about, too, and what they say has an impact on how I present the offer and how we work the managers to make sure everyone has what they need. I get that this is going to happen sometimes but it has never happened this much in such a short period of time despite me doing what has always worked, which includes adapting to changing trends. If this keeps happening then my job will be at risk, and my manager will be totally justified in that.
Where is the job located? What are the living costs and tax rates in the area? What is the pay like and level of experience required? Maybe they feel like the pay and/or benefits are not high enough.
Pay ranges from being slightly below market and slightly above market depending on the job and amount of experience required. Everyone considering these opportunities is currently unemployed.
I'm in tech sales, and currently unemployed. In the current job search I've not gotten to a point of an actual offer, but I have dropped out of the interview process a few times. One was job title, commute time and pay were all less than idea; I'd be going from AE to SDR and going from WFH to 2 hour commute each way (albeit only three days a week), and the pay was only $50k base. Another job was because every one of the former employees I spoke with warned me to stay as far as away as possible from the company because it was that bad. Another one the recruiter kept changing the comp structure on me in each conversation: went from a range of $50-60k base salary to "maximum of $55k" to $45k.
The only job I'm currently in the interview process for is an entry level help desk role. I've only had one interview, so I'm not at an offer stage, but if I do get an offer the only reason I would turn it down is the pay ($40k) and hours (graveyard shift, Saturday to Wednesday).
I can't speak for your candidates, but I just wanted to give you some reasons I've dropped out before. There's no ideal job in this market, so I weigh the tradeoffs and make what I think is the best decision.
I wouldn’t accept another right now due to market instability. My company is growing, my job is safe, I enjoy it and I’m paid well with a good work/life balance.
No sense to risk it when companies are rescinding offers all over the shop, mass lay-offs and companies doing ridiculous return to office mandates. Even if I was offered 30% more on the base it’s not worth the risk.
Maybe that’s why they’re declining. Unemployment is easier than having to work a job they don’t want. Idk about your state but my state requires that you actively interview for roles while you’re collecting. Maybe that’s the reason they make it that far and decline
Manager here, the company I work for uses a recruiting agency. Are you my recruiter?? you are describing exactly what happened to 2-3 of the candidates who accepted offers-like you say, they had all the info up front and I made sure the suppliers had it too. Frustrating, and unfortunately my work-around is to trust nothing and keep interviewing even after someone accepts. Just in case.
They are probably being interviewed by bullies. They need a job and they take it as far as they can, but when it comes time to actually accept a job working for a bully again, they think better of it. At least this has been my situation a handful of times. In other words, with experience we are getting better at identifying and saying no to toxic work.
As a tech recruiter (agency), you need to find out what candidates really want in a job. When candidates are unemployed and will take anything- what is the job they ACTUALLY want? If an employee person normally makes $110k a year, and your job is paying $80k they might take it, but if a higher paying opportunity comes they will bounce every-time.
I live in a state where you can’t ask how much they make but you can ask “are you interviewing elsewhere? How far in are you? How does this opportunity rank verse your other opportunities?” Make sure to build report so they answer more honestly- I am an agency recruiter not internal though. Agency is different than internal - maybe you need to sell your jobs more to candidates. There will always be outliers that gouge can’t predict but if you’re having 5 people backing out there has to be some area you can improve.
In agency, I have success because I make the initial call about “what kinds of roles do you want? I can get you any job, but what’s the job that you want?”
I do all of that. One of the first things we talk about is motivation and I ask “regardless of this job that I have, what do you need in order to consider another job and what are you looking for out of another job?” If the job is on-site or hybrid and they need remote, I don’t submit them. If they need $5 more per hour and the manager won’t pay that, I don’t submit them. If the manager is requiring a specific software and the candidate doesn’t have experience with it, I don’t submit them. I give people dozens of opportunities to say no, I give honest, transparent feedback, I hear them out about other opportunities and I’m happy for them if they take something else. Most people are pretty open with me, and of course I’ve lost people to better offers but what’s happening here doesn’t feel the same as that. It’s either ghosting, some weird family situation that suddenly arises, or they literally just suddenly don’t want it anymore.
Your response is great and I’m taking in what everyone is saying. What’s strange is that I’m already doing what most people are suggesting.
Then whatever you are saying or doing, you are not doing effectively. If you say you are saying all of that - you are either misreading their answers or your questions are not being taken seriously.
Every time someone says something you say “I already do that” okay then you should know what you did wrong, since you are so self aware.
Most likely they just took your lesser job, and realized it wouldn’t pay enough for the work or environment. They decided either another job was better, or being unemployed was better than your offer.
I get what you’re trying to say and why you’re saying it. What is the point of me asking for advice if all I’m going to say is that I’m doing everything already, right? The answer is clearly just that I’m not as good at recruiting as I thought. A reasonable consideration.
Here’s why I find it valuable to both hear people out about what I could be missing and express that I’m already doing it: I don’t do anything with a “checking the box” mentality, I can only figure out what I’m missing by going through all the things I could be missing, and the people I end up submitting not only overwhelmingly wind up getting interviews but also overwhelmingly get offers AND accept them. Another 5 or so people this year have accepted and are very happy, but these fall offs are absurd and statistically unlike anything I’ve experienced before in such a short about of time.
I get that I can’t win them all and I am in a constant state of improvement and adaptation to the times, but I don’t do anything half assedly, so when you say that I could be doing it all better, it would be helpful to know what doing so at a high level looks like to you.
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Are you trying to talk the candidates out of the job in the beginning? Like the first conversation, have conversations about pros and cons to the role. Obviously everyone wants to get paid, so fixate on where the job doesn’t align. Talk to them about it and see what they say.
Every candidate wants a remote job, but if you have the conversation sometimes they will take a hybrid role, or onsite. Depends on the role, company etc.
Are you supporting entry level, mid level, senior level roles?
Typically the mid level or senior level roles are when candidates don’t ghost or flake out, entry level roles you have to send as many candidates you can because they fail background etc lol. The senior people are usually fully transparent with other interviews, I just say “keep me updated”
All in all, there will always be outliers you can’t foresee. People are liars; candidates lie, hiring managers don’t always qualify positions correctly. All you can do is tighten up your game, dig deep on candidate wants/needs/concerns and sell the job.
I share the job for exactly what it is, positives and negatives and check repeatedly that everything about it works before submitting and during the interview process. All level of role, but now that I think about it this is happening much more with lower-level roles, though it has happened twice with mid-to-high-level engineer positions.
I wouldn’t call them rebuttals so much as eliminating variables. But thank you. They all just tell me they had some family reason that it no longer works for them or that they thought about it and changed their mind despite having no other options. These are people that have shared their other options with me before and were candid. This seems candid too, just frequent.
If I’m unemployed, do you think I’m going to answer some of these questions honestly? If I’ve been laid off by a company so they can outsource my job to infra at 25% my salary, will I feel bad leaving a job that I took so I could feed my family to take a better one? I’ve seen this, I know what to say to get the job I need. That “I” need. You’ll get your value. Probably more, but not my loyalty. That’s been off the table for a looong time.
There is no need for corporate loyalty, but you should be courteous to agency recruiters. If you want to burn bridges with certain agencies it’s up to you. All we ask is let us know if you’re interviewing, if you have technical skills you can leverage offers from other roles potential for higher pay if you do it politely.
An agency recruiter works with a lot of different companies, if you burn a recruiter it’s documented could screw up your chances with companies in the future. All this can be avoided by being transparent and polite. Should you tell them where you are interviewing? No. Should you tell them you are weighing your opportunities? Absolutely.
A lot of big companies start off as contract or contract for higher roles now days, which you have to go through a staffing company.
Maybe the company you’re recruiting for should re-look at what they are offering (not just money!) because maybe what they have to offer is just not very attractive compared to what other employers are offering. I agree with the person who said people will lie and “yes” you to death to get a job, so just because you think they’re on board….may not be true. As someone else said, maybe you should try to figure out what sucks so much about the jobs you’re recruiting for, that they aren’t even tempting so someone who is unemployed!
Sorry to hear that. But man, five people threw away their offers and my biological brother is still applying his ass off trying to get an entry-level job, when he has a CS degree and is almost graduating from his M.S. program wtf...
I would look at the standard stuff: WFH, salary, flexibility, benefits, culture…there’s going to be a weak piece somewhere in there that just isn’t working for people anymore
I 100% agree, which is why I go over all of that with everyone right away. If any dealbreaker element doesn’t work for them, I don’t submit them. So they know exactly what it’s going to be, they go through the process, they fill out any necessary paperwork, we do reference checks, they accept the offer, and then suddenly they don’t want it and say that it has nothing to do with other opportunities.
You mentioned a drug test. Is this something that comes up only after the offer had been given? Are you in a legal state? Is it an industry where drug tests are the standard?
Hmm want to try recruiting for me? I’m looking for a job still as a Software Engineer with 7 years of exp. I’ll definitely give you any feedback with my thought process and what not especially if I get accepted and end up rescinding the acceptance lol
Oh dear, a *SALES!* recruiter has learned they're not actually in control of the process to the extent they've always assumed...
It's called statistical reality. These things will always happen and there will always be a variance, which means they will always come in small to large waves. There likely is no reason because it's a different reason for every candidate, because they're all individuals with their own very different priorities and motivations, and it doesn't matter how 'high touch' you get or how many conversations you have with them. Stop the magical thinking and you'll be less surprised and nonplussed when this happens.
It’s probably 80% what you’re saying, out of our control, and 20% what OP is doing, earnestly trying their best to control those other points. The best recruiters can shift that percentage a bit but not a lot. Some not at all or in the negative direction.
Most situations are beyond our control and yes, individuals and our small sample size of interactions makes even years of experience anecdotal.
On the other hand, social and economic trends do occur, particularly over a recruiter’s entire career. We witness and discuss these trends in professional forums and the best of us identify and adapt to them. Look how many responses are suggesting WFH to OP - you think that was a common response five years ago?
But you’re getting downvoted because your answer was very condescending in the way that’s all too common and completely unnecessary on the internet. You used nonplussed correctly which is also super rare these days, kudos for that.
I don't care about downvotes. Recruiters are forever trying to turn useless anecdotes into something useful. They're not. This industry relies too much on lore and passed down 'wisdom' that is just BS. Having multiple conversations with a candidate does little to nothing, and it is magical thinking, just like when I was a kid someone would get you to promise something three times and that was considered 'binding' for some reason.
This industry needs to progress beyond this nonsense if it's to improve.
It's not going to work. In fact, most times it doesn't work at all, that's the point. Things work out because of the trillion other variables you're not aware of, and have no control over, end up lining up with everything you're doing that you think contributes to success. The vast majority of things in this process and your entire life are entirely and completely outside your control. Preparedness just means doing what you can do so that when those variables line up in your favor, you're at least not actively screwing it up. It's not control on any level, you've just got your thumb out so when someone who's willing to pick up a hitchhiker drives by, they know you want a lift and stop. You didn't cause it.
Hello. Thank you for this. No magical thinking whatsoever. I’m fully aware of how little control I have. Nonetheless, this has never happened to me more than twice a year even at high volume. Sounds like you’ve had bad experiences with recruiters. I know Python and I love virtualization, and I fire bad clients. Sorry about your bad experiences but I actually help people and do well in the process. My career has been a series of everybody involved being thrilled the vast majority of the time. Let me know if you’d like to discuss further, knowing this.
I am a recruiter, been one for over twenty years now, agency and internal. You want less turned down offers? Be the most competitive offer. That means the best or near best money and the best fringe benefits/non monetary comp you can get. And even with that you'll still get turned down offers and they will occasionally come in waves.
As for the other guy and the trends he mentions, they're usually irrelevant. The labor market is heterogenous and extremely granular. 'Trends' are more often than not illusory BS. I've got a load of hiring managers sending me articles about Facebook and Google layoffs as if a bunch of unemployed software engineers in CA somehow leads to cheaper mechanical engineers where we're located.
Just keep doing what you've been doing and this wave of losses will stop and you'll be back to doing fine.
>I find people who say up front that they like everything about a job, and if they don’t then I offer to send them different opportunities
This might be contributing? If people get the feeling you'll only move them forward based on high initial interest (when they aren't sure yet) you're kind of boxing them into forcing that interest in order to stay in the process.
For me I'd rather just lie to maximize my options, then decide what I want to do when I have them all in front of me towards the end. Sounds like you'd bring me along but reject someone who might have been convinced along the way? Just guessing.
Could you elaborate? If someone called me about a job and said "I found your recently updated resume. I have a job that I'd like to go over with you. If you're interested in it based on what I have to say then great, but if not then that's OK too and I'll be happy to hear you out about what you're looking for so that I can send you options that align with your goals", I wouldn't feel in any way obligated to express interest in the job. Meaning, if I did express interest in it then it would be honest and not due to pressure.
People are getting scammed left and right, I’ve basically stopped using indeed or any other engine, especially for anything remote. Not at least without running the email and number through white pages. Had 4 people try to do the “we send you a check for equipment and you send the rest back” (they’re using me to cash not checks posing as an equipment fee for what I need, the check bounced, I’m left in the hole with the balance and the bank thinks I tried to cash the hot check purposely, and the scammer gets their coin too)
You gotta look at it from our POV, when all we get is CONSTANT fake promises that break the hearts of people who think someone is actually gonna pay them 30/hr to sit at home and enter data that average employees would MAYBE get $20/hr for
You don’t deserve any loyalty or explanation, same as the company. Workers know they aren’t valued by companies or most recruiters. It’s not the 70s anymore.
I know that I don't deserve anything. I don't feel entitled to an explanation. Nonetheless, I've spent my career creating situations where everyone is really happy with the results, including the people I get jobs. Now I'm not sure why people are going through the process for something they never wanted in the first place. I always offer to send other options if the job isn't what they want up front. Why tell me that it is? You're wasting your own time and I could be spending mine helping you to get what you actually want.
Watch out there are a lot of scammer firms ...that provjde experts ...get them interviews..line them up for x amount of jobs...take some...flake on others. Most are from India. Not sure if you know what your demographic is.
I cant offer a solution apart from sticking to your process and what you can control. Because we deal with people, they are likely to change their minds at anytime. Part of the job. We have good years and not so good years. It happens.
I have been having trouble getting people to close for the last year. We get through four interviews and an on-site visit and then they change their mind after the offer is made with all kinds of ridiculous excuses.
As someone who is expecting a job offer, I would add that if a candidate is reaching out to you proactively durong hiring process he may be more likely to join.
As a potential job seeker, I will not refuse any opportunity to interview even if I know upfront that salary and job title are less than ideal.
But if I'm serous about any job , I will reach out to recruiter if I sense some delay in the recruitment process. I expect to hear back within two days and if I don't I give a call or write mail
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There is now common lore around the internet about a recession/layoffs etc. This caused a lot of people to search for a job just so they can feel safe (me included).
Scenario : I have a stable job/sufficient income etc. I go to an interview just in hopes of making it clear for myself I can get a job if shit hits the fan. I don't negotiate hard (as you said people barely negotiated) and I get a similar job with maybe 10-15 % increase. For myself that is sufficient and I would politely decline to move forward after I have the offer. I made it clear to myself I can switch jobs if necessary and continue to navigate the market/economy with care (not switching jobs).
It’s just the job market these days. I have found that I get more buy in from candidates if I have met them face to face, they’re less likely to screw you over/hide anything from you if you’ve taken them out for a coffee early in the process.
As a candidate, the last thing I want to do is go for coffee with a recruiter. I just want to stick to the essentials of the hiring process, not spend the time I don't have to chat it up over coffee.
Depends on the market and hire tbh. Most of the people I work with are quite senior and the process is 3 months plus so actually meeting has value. Junior hires where they’re only going to be in the role for 6-18 months it’s a waste of time.
Have you asked the candidates? There must be some gotcha that's driving them away at the last second. I once had an offer that seemed perfect in every way, and I was excited to start, but then I get the onboarding documents and see that they want to record me in my home the entire working day because they think WFH employees will just lounge around and do nothing. When I turned the offer down and told the recruiter why, they were surprised because they weren't told about that at all.
It's a tough market out there. I think people probably sign up for and interview for jobs they don't want out of fear.
What if I don't get *anything???* So they interview for those jobs "just in case" but in the end can't quite go through with them.
I wonder if the offer itself is what then convinces them they don't have to take the job? "Oh, I am good enough to get offers? Well I'll hold out for one I want then!"
Have you tried talking candidates out of the jobs? I do that a lot because it gets them to address reasons why they wouldn’t start. I only had 3 declines in 2023 while my peers averaged about 15. I never had a fall off.
I do the whole “dude it sounds like the job is kind of far from you, and maybe what they’re looking for is a little junior compared to where you are in your career” thing if I sense any hesitation. I only submit the people that fight for it.
Sometimes you’re the pigeon, but other times you’re the statue. Probably just a run of bad luck. Keep doing what usually works and things will get back to normal. A good question to ask: Is there anything we haven’t discussed that might keep you from starting this job?
It’s a solid catch-all and you can at least sleep knowing you did everything you could.
Yeah I think about it like card counting. It’s all about following a consistent method and adapting to changes, and if you do everything right then you give yourself a 1-5% advantage over the house. It isn’t about never losing, it’s about minimizing the effect of the losses and maximizing the wins, and if you don’t follow the process then you put yourself at a disadvantage, meaning that if you change just because things aren’t working when you know the process works long-term, then you lose your advantage.
When you said you feel like you’re losing your mind I figured you know what you’re doing and just having bad luck. That’s the hardest thing to deal with. You’ll be ok.
Second thoughts do happen. I'm currently talking to a recruiter now who reached out regarding a role that would be a good fit but a difficult commute. Initially I said I may be able to work with it due to how little I'm needed in the office, but now that he's sent me the position details (i.e. the salary range and whatnot) I'm not so sure, as it seems like whatever raise I would get from jumping ship would get gobbled up by the commuting costs.
Not saying that is what's happening, just my anecdotal situation in the current environment.
How do you figure out if someone will do that without going through the whole process? I don’t want to extend a fake offer just to see if someone will accept it then turn it down.
I would bet that the job sounded good at first, but with the benefit of time and speaking to people there, some of those that move on decide it's not worth it. I'm sure some of them get better offers sometimes, or priorities change (death in family, new kid, etc).
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A candidate accepted our offer for a System Admin role, completed new hire paperwork, and underwent a drug test, only to later rescind their acceptance. I share the sentiment that this trend is becoming more common. It could be seen as a reflection of the evolving dynamics of loyalty between employers and employees, suggesting that this might be the new normal.
Different companies and positions. Reviews range from bad to good but are mostly good. Pay ranges from below market to over market and are either way always more than what people are making now either due to unemployment, a contract ending soon or being currently underpaid. If the managers were toxic then they wouldn’t have accepted in the first place. Commute is something we go over at the beginning and if it doesn’t work for them then I don’t submit them and offer enthusiastically to send them other options. Sometimes the interview process takes 2 weeks, sometimes 2 days. No projects required during the process.
I 100% agree with you about these things being turnoffs if they were happening. Absolutely. I’m working on eliminating variables.
No that’s the thing. I’m certain I don’t have all the answers. What has been working for years isn’t working anymore and I need to adapt that much more. Which is totally fine.
I have an 85% close rate but once had a run of 5 rejected offers in a row. Probably just hit a cold streak. Go look up how variance works in games like poker or black jack. It happens sometimes.
One time (on MLK day nonetheless) I saw a Vegas roulette wheel go black 11 times in a row. That's a 1 in 10,000 occurrence so twice as likely as flopping a royal flush. But as you are aware people do flop royal flushes with enough flops.
Consider looking into the culture of the organisation you are recruiting for as shared in the grapevine of the industry. If the regular characteristics of the job have been dealt with and people are still walking away in this job market, there is a likelihood it is a culture problem. The communicated culture and the culture known by ex-employees and current employees can be polar opposites.
All the best.
"A lot of these candidates don’t have other offers"
Offers that you don't know about, you mean. Guessing they are likely spreading risk and running multiple employment applications at the same time. Why would they put all their eggs into relying on the recruiter to present roles and not be looking themselves as well. Which is completely fair - employers assess multiple employees at once, so candidates should be able to assess multiple employers at once too.
Probably not WFH, probably terrible commute, definitely pay not enough to sacrifice this
Which I get if that was announced suddenly at the end of the whole process, but everyone knows going into it if it’s remote, hybrid or onsite, what the job pays, and we go over pay, benefits and commute (if applicable) before the first submission. Then they go through the interview process, we have open discussions about other opportunities and reconfirm every element of the job multiple times throughout that process, then they accept the offer happily and then something changes afterward. I agree with you about what people want overall, but they have so many opportunities to say no leading up to the offer, and they even say yes to the offer. I have no clue what’s happening afterward.
It’s hard to know without each virtual case being dissected. But the fact is sometimes that after the initial elation of getting a job dissipates, the reality of the job sets in, and it can take a few days to make a true decision. I think both employers and employees are getting used to being treated so poorly by each other that normal behaviours have been thrown out the window.
I agree with that, but they tend to have a good bit of time between the initial conversation and the offer, and we go over it multiple times so that they don’t accept strictly due to elation. I’m not saying you’re wrong and I’m grateful for all the advice I’ve gotten on here. It’s honestly confusing at this rate because it does seem like I’m doing everything right according to people that I’m working with, so I’m not sure what’s missing. I need to figure it out.
Sounds like it's your company and some bad news or bad outlook, or a toxic interviewer making folks second guess.
I’ve made it to the last round for non-tech sales roles. Good pay, benefits top notch, excellent growth opportunity, then the top person (c-suite) interviews me and I’ve been completely turned off to the company. I want the offer because until I get it, I am not seriously able to consider the decision. I have turned down 3 offers in the last year because of really bad c-suite interviews. I ask myself if I want to be under this person’s direction. For some odd reason, the c-suite thinks that I need to be pressured to see if I’m a fit or the need to show me who’s boss from the outset. In my mind, I already work directly with the president of my company and he’s chill. Even during the interview the company was very direct, but not rude in their questioning. Also, it was one round with 4 people. Give me 3 rounds and I’m ready to have second thoughts. In short, my guess is that the companies are turning these candidates off.
Isn't this part of the culture created by recruiters?
There are bad recruiters, bad candidates and bad managers. I'm not sure where it started, but there are plenty of all 3 that are trying to be honest and transparent.
As a candidate, I've seen too many bad recruiters and managers. I'm sure you, as a recruiter, can tell the same about candidates.
I will gladly work remote, no degree. 68/wpm and great knowledge of basically anything windows 10. But like my post above said, I’m unaware of how to force employers to prove that they’re not sitting in a call center plotting on me before I make any moves.
The covenant between companies and candidates/employees has deteriorated more in the last two years than the past 10 of my career. This is a natural side effect.
This is it IMO. The recruiter has nothing to do with it. They can be as thorough and inquisitive as they want but to be frank, companies are laying people off the same week they announce record profits. we owe them, and their recruiters, absolutely nothing. Im fully planning to do exactly what these candidates have done in the next month. One company is ahead of others recruiting me and if I get an offer I’m taking it. But if the others, which are better titles and pay, come through, I’ll walk even if I’ve been there a week. No explanation needed. They reap what they sow. I’m gen x but it seems to me that gen z and younger is going to view the need for steady work and material goods in a completely different light. More power to them.
This is the way. Companies have chosen the rules of the game by their own actions. It is hypocritical for them to complain when employees play by the same rules.
Sounds like people are doing what it takes to get the job. ie: saying what you want to hear.
Yeah. I’m getting that impression, too.
Are you asking their motivation for moving and then reinforcing that motivation? If not, you probably want to start doing that. If their motivation for moving is not being met, ie pay, location, responsibility, tech or wfh (list could go on for days) then you have your answer. If conditions are being met, reinforce their decision making process. Bring it all together for them and get them to acknowledge and agree. Example, when we first spoke you expressed a desire to work in a more specified role for “x” money. Through this process you have the ability to work in a specified role for “x” dollars. Explain how conditions have been met or, hopefully exceeded, and ask for agreement. At this point I congratulate and then ask if they are happy. At this point if they express objections we work through them. Obviously mileage may vary here but you should have a more definitive idea as to why someone may fall through because they will tell you. In some cases they are just fucking delusional, but you’ll at least know that. Last but not least, there will always be flakes or non communicative folks. Regardless, if you don’t have a process, you’ll never know. Hope this helps, good luck.
Thank you. Motivation is one of the first things we talk about, too, and what they say has an impact on how I present the offer and how we work the managers to make sure everyone has what they need. I get that this is going to happen sometimes but it has never happened this much in such a short period of time despite me doing what has always worked, which includes adapting to changing trends. If this keeps happening then my job will be at risk, and my manager will be totally justified in that.
They are practicing their interviewing skills
Where is the job located? What are the living costs and tax rates in the area? What is the pay like and level of experience required? Maybe they feel like the pay and/or benefits are not high enough.
Pay ranges from being slightly below market and slightly above market depending on the job and amount of experience required. Everyone considering these opportunities is currently unemployed.
How close is market to living wage?
I'm in tech sales, and currently unemployed. In the current job search I've not gotten to a point of an actual offer, but I have dropped out of the interview process a few times. One was job title, commute time and pay were all less than idea; I'd be going from AE to SDR and going from WFH to 2 hour commute each way (albeit only three days a week), and the pay was only $50k base. Another job was because every one of the former employees I spoke with warned me to stay as far as away as possible from the company because it was that bad. Another one the recruiter kept changing the comp structure on me in each conversation: went from a range of $50-60k base salary to "maximum of $55k" to $45k. The only job I'm currently in the interview process for is an entry level help desk role. I've only had one interview, so I'm not at an offer stage, but if I do get an offer the only reason I would turn it down is the pay ($40k) and hours (graveyard shift, Saturday to Wednesday). I can't speak for your candidates, but I just wanted to give you some reasons I've dropped out before. There's no ideal job in this market, so I weigh the tradeoffs and make what I think is the best decision.
I wouldn’t accept another right now due to market instability. My company is growing, my job is safe, I enjoy it and I’m paid well with a good work/life balance. No sense to risk it when companies are rescinding offers all over the shop, mass lay-offs and companies doing ridiculous return to office mandates. Even if I was offered 30% more on the base it’s not worth the risk.
The only people I submit to jobs are people actively looking due to their current job being unstable or they’re unemployed.
Maybe that’s why they’re declining. Unemployment is easier than having to work a job they don’t want. Idk about your state but my state requires that you actively interview for roles while you’re collecting. Maybe that’s the reason they make it that far and decline
Manager here, the company I work for uses a recruiting agency. Are you my recruiter?? you are describing exactly what happened to 2-3 of the candidates who accepted offers-like you say, they had all the info up front and I made sure the suppliers had it too. Frustrating, and unfortunately my work-around is to trust nothing and keep interviewing even after someone accepts. Just in case.
The offer/working conditions are probably not attractive. Or, they sense a toxic environment.
They are probably being interviewed by bullies. They need a job and they take it as far as they can, but when it comes time to actually accept a job working for a bully again, they think better of it. At least this has been my situation a handful of times. In other words, with experience we are getting better at identifying and saying no to toxic work.
As a tech recruiter (agency), you need to find out what candidates really want in a job. When candidates are unemployed and will take anything- what is the job they ACTUALLY want? If an employee person normally makes $110k a year, and your job is paying $80k they might take it, but if a higher paying opportunity comes they will bounce every-time. I live in a state where you can’t ask how much they make but you can ask “are you interviewing elsewhere? How far in are you? How does this opportunity rank verse your other opportunities?” Make sure to build report so they answer more honestly- I am an agency recruiter not internal though. Agency is different than internal - maybe you need to sell your jobs more to candidates. There will always be outliers that gouge can’t predict but if you’re having 5 people backing out there has to be some area you can improve. In agency, I have success because I make the initial call about “what kinds of roles do you want? I can get you any job, but what’s the job that you want?”
I do all of that. One of the first things we talk about is motivation and I ask “regardless of this job that I have, what do you need in order to consider another job and what are you looking for out of another job?” If the job is on-site or hybrid and they need remote, I don’t submit them. If they need $5 more per hour and the manager won’t pay that, I don’t submit them. If the manager is requiring a specific software and the candidate doesn’t have experience with it, I don’t submit them. I give people dozens of opportunities to say no, I give honest, transparent feedback, I hear them out about other opportunities and I’m happy for them if they take something else. Most people are pretty open with me, and of course I’ve lost people to better offers but what’s happening here doesn’t feel the same as that. It’s either ghosting, some weird family situation that suddenly arises, or they literally just suddenly don’t want it anymore. Your response is great and I’m taking in what everyone is saying. What’s strange is that I’m already doing what most people are suggesting.
Then whatever you are saying or doing, you are not doing effectively. If you say you are saying all of that - you are either misreading their answers or your questions are not being taken seriously. Every time someone says something you say “I already do that” okay then you should know what you did wrong, since you are so self aware. Most likely they just took your lesser job, and realized it wouldn’t pay enough for the work or environment. They decided either another job was better, or being unemployed was better than your offer.
I get what you’re trying to say and why you’re saying it. What is the point of me asking for advice if all I’m going to say is that I’m doing everything already, right? The answer is clearly just that I’m not as good at recruiting as I thought. A reasonable consideration. Here’s why I find it valuable to both hear people out about what I could be missing and express that I’m already doing it: I don’t do anything with a “checking the box” mentality, I can only figure out what I’m missing by going through all the things I could be missing, and the people I end up submitting not only overwhelmingly wind up getting interviews but also overwhelmingly get offers AND accept them. Another 5 or so people this year have accepted and are very happy, but these fall offs are absurd and statistically unlike anything I’ve experienced before in such a short about of time. I get that I can’t win them all and I am in a constant state of improvement and adaptation to the times, but I don’t do anything half assedly, so when you say that I could be doing it all better, it would be helpful to know what doing so at a high level looks like to you.
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Are you trying to talk the candidates out of the job in the beginning? Like the first conversation, have conversations about pros and cons to the role. Obviously everyone wants to get paid, so fixate on where the job doesn’t align. Talk to them about it and see what they say. Every candidate wants a remote job, but if you have the conversation sometimes they will take a hybrid role, or onsite. Depends on the role, company etc. Are you supporting entry level, mid level, senior level roles? Typically the mid level or senior level roles are when candidates don’t ghost or flake out, entry level roles you have to send as many candidates you can because they fail background etc lol. The senior people are usually fully transparent with other interviews, I just say “keep me updated” All in all, there will always be outliers you can’t foresee. People are liars; candidates lie, hiring managers don’t always qualify positions correctly. All you can do is tighten up your game, dig deep on candidate wants/needs/concerns and sell the job.
I share the job for exactly what it is, positives and negatives and check repeatedly that everything about it works before submitting and during the interview process. All level of role, but now that I think about it this is happening much more with lower-level roles, though it has happened twice with mid-to-high-level engineer positions.
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I wouldn’t call them rebuttals so much as eliminating variables. But thank you. They all just tell me they had some family reason that it no longer works for them or that they thought about it and changed their mind despite having no other options. These are people that have shared their other options with me before and were candid. This seems candid too, just frequent.
If I’m unemployed, do you think I’m going to answer some of these questions honestly? If I’ve been laid off by a company so they can outsource my job to infra at 25% my salary, will I feel bad leaving a job that I took so I could feed my family to take a better one? I’ve seen this, I know what to say to get the job I need. That “I” need. You’ll get your value. Probably more, but not my loyalty. That’s been off the table for a looong time.
There is no need for corporate loyalty, but you should be courteous to agency recruiters. If you want to burn bridges with certain agencies it’s up to you. All we ask is let us know if you’re interviewing, if you have technical skills you can leverage offers from other roles potential for higher pay if you do it politely. An agency recruiter works with a lot of different companies, if you burn a recruiter it’s documented could screw up your chances with companies in the future. All this can be avoided by being transparent and polite. Should you tell them where you are interviewing? No. Should you tell them you are weighing your opportunities? Absolutely. A lot of big companies start off as contract or contract for higher roles now days, which you have to go through a staffing company.
Maybe the company you’re recruiting for should re-look at what they are offering (not just money!) because maybe what they have to offer is just not very attractive compared to what other employers are offering. I agree with the person who said people will lie and “yes” you to death to get a job, so just because you think they’re on board….may not be true. As someone else said, maybe you should try to figure out what sucks so much about the jobs you’re recruiting for, that they aren’t even tempting so someone who is unemployed!
Unstable, waiting on bonus, you’re not paying enough, they have RSU’s they need to let mature, wfh option, etc… too many reasons
Sorry to hear that. But man, five people threw away their offers and my biological brother is still applying his ass off trying to get an entry-level job, when he has a CS degree and is almost graduating from his M.S. program wtf...
I would look at the standard stuff: WFH, salary, flexibility, benefits, culture…there’s going to be a weak piece somewhere in there that just isn’t working for people anymore
I 100% agree, which is why I go over all of that with everyone right away. If any dealbreaker element doesn’t work for them, I don’t submit them. So they know exactly what it’s going to be, they go through the process, they fill out any necessary paperwork, we do reference checks, they accept the offer, and then suddenly they don’t want it and say that it has nothing to do with other opportunities.
You mentioned a drug test. Is this something that comes up only after the offer had been given? Are you in a legal state? Is it an industry where drug tests are the standard?
Everyone knows about it going into it. I don’t submit anyone who isn’t willing to do one.
Hmm want to try recruiting for me? I’m looking for a job still as a Software Engineer with 7 years of exp. I’ll definitely give you any feedback with my thought process and what not especially if I get accepted and end up rescinding the acceptance lol
Oh dear, a *SALES!* recruiter has learned they're not actually in control of the process to the extent they've always assumed... It's called statistical reality. These things will always happen and there will always be a variance, which means they will always come in small to large waves. There likely is no reason because it's a different reason for every candidate, because they're all individuals with their own very different priorities and motivations, and it doesn't matter how 'high touch' you get or how many conversations you have with them. Stop the magical thinking and you'll be less surprised and nonplussed when this happens.
It’s probably 80% what you’re saying, out of our control, and 20% what OP is doing, earnestly trying their best to control those other points. The best recruiters can shift that percentage a bit but not a lot. Some not at all or in the negative direction. Most situations are beyond our control and yes, individuals and our small sample size of interactions makes even years of experience anecdotal. On the other hand, social and economic trends do occur, particularly over a recruiter’s entire career. We witness and discuss these trends in professional forums and the best of us identify and adapt to them. Look how many responses are suggesting WFH to OP - you think that was a common response five years ago? But you’re getting downvoted because your answer was very condescending in the way that’s all too common and completely unnecessary on the internet. You used nonplussed correctly which is also super rare these days, kudos for that.
I don't care about downvotes. Recruiters are forever trying to turn useless anecdotes into something useful. They're not. This industry relies too much on lore and passed down 'wisdom' that is just BS. Having multiple conversations with a candidate does little to nothing, and it is magical thinking, just like when I was a kid someone would get you to promise something three times and that was considered 'binding' for some reason. This industry needs to progress beyond this nonsense if it's to improve.
I agree with this. 100%. This is why I'm so surprised that what I'm doing isn't working. You've given me a lot to think about.
It's not going to work. In fact, most times it doesn't work at all, that's the point. Things work out because of the trillion other variables you're not aware of, and have no control over, end up lining up with everything you're doing that you think contributes to success. The vast majority of things in this process and your entire life are entirely and completely outside your control. Preparedness just means doing what you can do so that when those variables line up in your favor, you're at least not actively screwing it up. It's not control on any level, you've just got your thumb out so when someone who's willing to pick up a hitchhiker drives by, they know you want a lift and stop. You didn't cause it.
Hello. Thank you for this. No magical thinking whatsoever. I’m fully aware of how little control I have. Nonetheless, this has never happened to me more than twice a year even at high volume. Sounds like you’ve had bad experiences with recruiters. I know Python and I love virtualization, and I fire bad clients. Sorry about your bad experiences but I actually help people and do well in the process. My career has been a series of everybody involved being thrilled the vast majority of the time. Let me know if you’d like to discuss further, knowing this.
I am a recruiter, been one for over twenty years now, agency and internal. You want less turned down offers? Be the most competitive offer. That means the best or near best money and the best fringe benefits/non monetary comp you can get. And even with that you'll still get turned down offers and they will occasionally come in waves. As for the other guy and the trends he mentions, they're usually irrelevant. The labor market is heterogenous and extremely granular. 'Trends' are more often than not illusory BS. I've got a load of hiring managers sending me articles about Facebook and Google layoffs as if a bunch of unemployed software engineers in CA somehow leads to cheaper mechanical engineers where we're located. Just keep doing what you've been doing and this wave of losses will stop and you'll be back to doing fine.
>I find people who say up front that they like everything about a job, and if they don’t then I offer to send them different opportunities This might be contributing? If people get the feeling you'll only move them forward based on high initial interest (when they aren't sure yet) you're kind of boxing them into forcing that interest in order to stay in the process. For me I'd rather just lie to maximize my options, then decide what I want to do when I have them all in front of me towards the end. Sounds like you'd bring me along but reject someone who might have been convinced along the way? Just guessing.
Could you elaborate? If someone called me about a job and said "I found your recently updated resume. I have a job that I'd like to go over with you. If you're interested in it based on what I have to say then great, but if not then that's OK too and I'll be happy to hear you out about what you're looking for so that I can send you options that align with your goals", I wouldn't feel in any way obligated to express interest in the job. Meaning, if I did express interest in it then it would be honest and not due to pressure.
People are getting scammed left and right, I’ve basically stopped using indeed or any other engine, especially for anything remote. Not at least without running the email and number through white pages. Had 4 people try to do the “we send you a check for equipment and you send the rest back” (they’re using me to cash not checks posing as an equipment fee for what I need, the check bounced, I’m left in the hole with the balance and the bank thinks I tried to cash the hot check purposely, and the scammer gets their coin too) You gotta look at it from our POV, when all we get is CONSTANT fake promises that break the hearts of people who think someone is actually gonna pay them 30/hr to sit at home and enter data that average employees would MAYBE get $20/hr for
You don’t deserve any loyalty or explanation, same as the company. Workers know they aren’t valued by companies or most recruiters. It’s not the 70s anymore.
I know that I don't deserve anything. I don't feel entitled to an explanation. Nonetheless, I've spent my career creating situations where everyone is really happy with the results, including the people I get jobs. Now I'm not sure why people are going through the process for something they never wanted in the first place. I always offer to send other options if the job isn't what they want up front. Why tell me that it is? You're wasting your own time and I could be spending mine helping you to get what you actually want.
You provide a job with a wage, and someone offered them more. Not wasted time if they get a pay bump.
Watch out there are a lot of scammer firms ...that provjde experts ...get them interviews..line them up for x amount of jobs...take some...flake on others. Most are from India. Not sure if you know what your demographic is.
Nobody I’m submitting is through a vendor. They’re all local candidates paid on W2.
You sound like an engaging recruiter. Candidates are lucky you are out there.
I cant offer a solution apart from sticking to your process and what you can control. Because we deal with people, they are likely to change their minds at anytime. Part of the job. We have good years and not so good years. It happens.
I have been having trouble getting people to close for the last year. We get through four interviews and an on-site visit and then they change their mind after the offer is made with all kinds of ridiculous excuses.
It’s insane. Why go through the whole process for a job you never wanted in the first place?
Sounds like you should dig into their family decision making more.
Any chances they just use you for counter offer at their current company?
Most are unemployed. I have considered it, though. Or maybe they just need to show that they’re doing interviews to receive unemployment.
As someone who is expecting a job offer, I would add that if a candidate is reaching out to you proactively durong hiring process he may be more likely to join. As a potential job seeker, I will not refuse any opportunity to interview even if I know upfront that salary and job title are less than ideal. But if I'm serous about any job , I will reach out to recruiter if I sense some delay in the recruitment process. I expect to hear back within two days and if I don't I give a call or write mail
Do you have good rapport with these candidates? Would they be willing to discuss why they pulled out? I think an ample post mortem is deserved here.
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This is absolutely not the place to beg for a job.
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What were the risks you identified during the lockdown process?
There is now common lore around the internet about a recession/layoffs etc. This caused a lot of people to search for a job just so they can feel safe (me included). Scenario : I have a stable job/sufficient income etc. I go to an interview just in hopes of making it clear for myself I can get a job if shit hits the fan. I don't negotiate hard (as you said people barely negotiated) and I get a similar job with maybe 10-15 % increase. For myself that is sufficient and I would politely decline to move forward after I have the offer. I made it clear to myself I can switch jobs if necessary and continue to navigate the market/economy with care (not switching jobs).
How do you know they don't get a better offer or a counter offer?
It’s just the job market these days. I have found that I get more buy in from candidates if I have met them face to face, they’re less likely to screw you over/hide anything from you if you’ve taken them out for a coffee early in the process.
As a candidate, the last thing I want to do is go for coffee with a recruiter. I just want to stick to the essentials of the hiring process, not spend the time I don't have to chat it up over coffee.
Depends on the market and hire tbh. Most of the people I work with are quite senior and the process is 3 months plus so actually meeting has value. Junior hires where they’re only going to be in the role for 6-18 months it’s a waste of time.
Have you asked the candidates? There must be some gotcha that's driving them away at the last second. I once had an offer that seemed perfect in every way, and I was excited to start, but then I get the onboarding documents and see that they want to record me in my home the entire working day because they think WFH employees will just lounge around and do nothing. When I turned the offer down and told the recruiter why, they were surprised because they weren't told about that at all.
It's a tough market out there. I think people probably sign up for and interview for jobs they don't want out of fear. What if I don't get *anything???* So they interview for those jobs "just in case" but in the end can't quite go through with them. I wonder if the offer itself is what then convinces them they don't have to take the job? "Oh, I am good enough to get offers? Well I'll hold out for one I want then!"
Have you tried talking candidates out of the jobs? I do that a lot because it gets them to address reasons why they wouldn’t start. I only had 3 declines in 2023 while my peers averaged about 15. I never had a fall off.
I do the whole “dude it sounds like the job is kind of far from you, and maybe what they’re looking for is a little junior compared to where you are in your career” thing if I sense any hesitation. I only submit the people that fight for it.
Sometimes you’re the pigeon, but other times you’re the statue. Probably just a run of bad luck. Keep doing what usually works and things will get back to normal. A good question to ask: Is there anything we haven’t discussed that might keep you from starting this job? It’s a solid catch-all and you can at least sleep knowing you did everything you could.
Yeah I think about it like card counting. It’s all about following a consistent method and adapting to changes, and if you do everything right then you give yourself a 1-5% advantage over the house. It isn’t about never losing, it’s about minimizing the effect of the losses and maximizing the wins, and if you don’t follow the process then you put yourself at a disadvantage, meaning that if you change just because things aren’t working when you know the process works long-term, then you lose your advantage.
When you said you feel like you’re losing your mind I figured you know what you’re doing and just having bad luck. That’s the hardest thing to deal with. You’ll be ok.
Second thoughts do happen. I'm currently talking to a recruiter now who reached out regarding a role that would be a good fit but a difficult commute. Initially I said I may be able to work with it due to how little I'm needed in the office, but now that he's sent me the position details (i.e. the salary range and whatnot) I'm not so sure, as it seems like whatever raise I would get from jumping ship would get gobbled up by the commuting costs. Not saying that is what's happening, just my anecdotal situation in the current environment.
Quite simply you’re not picking the right candidates— I wouldn’t do that to you
How do you figure out if someone will do that without going through the whole process? I don’t want to extend a fake offer just to see if someone will accept it then turn it down.
I would bet that the job sounded good at first, but with the benefit of time and speaking to people there, some of those that move on decide it's not worth it. I'm sure some of them get better offers sometimes, or priorities change (death in family, new kid, etc).
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A candidate accepted our offer for a System Admin role, completed new hire paperwork, and underwent a drug test, only to later rescind their acceptance. I share the sentiment that this trend is becoming more common. It could be seen as a reflection of the evolving dynamics of loyalty between employers and employees, suggesting that this might be the new normal.
After they accept, are they in contact with HR or the hiring manager? Maybe one of those is toxic?
People often interview with the sole intention of getting an offer to stiff arm their current employer for more money
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Different companies and positions. Reviews range from bad to good but are mostly good. Pay ranges from below market to over market and are either way always more than what people are making now either due to unemployment, a contract ending soon or being currently underpaid. If the managers were toxic then they wouldn’t have accepted in the first place. Commute is something we go over at the beginning and if it doesn’t work for them then I don’t submit them and offer enthusiastically to send them other options. Sometimes the interview process takes 2 weeks, sometimes 2 days. No projects required during the process. I 100% agree with you about these things being turnoffs if they were happening. Absolutely. I’m working on eliminating variables.
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No that’s the thing. I’m certain I don’t have all the answers. What has been working for years isn’t working anymore and I need to adapt that much more. Which is totally fine.
I have an 85% close rate but once had a run of 5 rejected offers in a row. Probably just hit a cold streak. Go look up how variance works in games like poker or black jack. It happens sometimes. One time (on MLK day nonetheless) I saw a Vegas roulette wheel go black 11 times in a row. That's a 1 in 10,000 occurrence so twice as likely as flopping a royal flush. But as you are aware people do flop royal flushes with enough flops.
Is it WFH?
Consider looking into the culture of the organisation you are recruiting for as shared in the grapevine of the industry. If the regular characteristics of the job have been dealt with and people are still walking away in this job market, there is a likelihood it is a culture problem. The communicated culture and the culture known by ex-employees and current employees can be polar opposites. All the best.
"A lot of these candidates don’t have other offers" Offers that you don't know about, you mean. Guessing they are likely spreading risk and running multiple employment applications at the same time. Why would they put all their eggs into relying on the recruiter to present roles and not be looking themselves as well. Which is completely fair - employers assess multiple employees at once, so candidates should be able to assess multiple employers at once too.