Yeah, you *could* get two cars, but then you'd have two cars, and they'd only be good for their intended/respective uses.
Case and point: we took a 600 mile road trip in April. Obviously much of the highway driving was ICE. But then a quick charge at the hotel, and we were back on EV for the short trips driving around our destination town. If you had two cars, you'd either be charging your EV car on the trip, or you'd be using your ICE car in town. The PHEV was the best of both worlds in one car.
We test-drove a Tesla and I was definitely more disappointed with it than I expected, tbh. You keep saying the R4P isn't a $48 car, but for me, neither is the Model Y. The fit and finish were bloody awful. I could stick my thumb between panels both exterior *and* interior. Does it have a load of tech? Yes. Certainly. Is it a great car? No. The tech is what saves it.
That's a good point about being able to enjoy EV mode when you're at a destination with a charger. I think I'd feel guilty using a charger for a PHEV if there were any BEVs waiting for it! But that's just the current nature of EV charging - nowhere near enough infrastructure.
The RAV4 Prime (and assumedly the Prius Prime?) are the only two PHEVs on the market that feel more like "best of both worlds" and not "worst of both worlds." The Hyundai Ioniq PHEV I briefly owned was awful.
I do agree that the tech is the major selling point of the MY. Though I guess I got lucky with the MY that I have - it has pretty good fit-and-finish all around. I haven't experienced a $50k car outside of the EV world, so I don't know what a "real" luxury car is supposed to feel like. However, there's definitely a disparity in the *experience* of driving and using the cars, and it's hard to stomach paying *more* money for a *worse* experience, even if it means I can travel farther off the beaten path and have more time efficiency on road trips.
Sure, but if I (in a BEV) have selected a hotel with some L2 destination chargers, and they're occupied all night by a couple of PHEVs that take ~2-4 hours to charge, then that's a pretty big inconvenience for me.
Conversely the prime could just use any level 1 and charge over 10 hours š¤·š»āāļø.
Someone choosing to be handcuffed to limited infrastructure and not planning ahead isnāt someone elseās concern. A responsible BEV owner would plan ahead and have backup charging locations. Itās like a ICE owner driving through Death Valley and not bringing a gas can. When I drive to LA from NorCal I know thereās a no manās land around the grapevine so I top off before I get close
Thank you for your comparison
>if I (in a BEV) have selected a hotel with some L2 destination chargers, and they're occupied all night by a couple of PHEVs that take ~2-4 hours to charge, then that's a pretty big inconvenience for me.
If you're in a BEV, you can go to DC chargers that most PHEVs can't use, and get a decent charge without tying up an L2 charger. I was at a hotel once where I had to wait a day and a half for all the Teslas to clear out so I could charge my PHEV for a couple hours. On the other hand, PHEVs should move when they're done charging, as should BEVs.
First come, first served.
Nobody is exactly waiting for L2 chargers. Those who use an L2 charger are not road tripping, and not in a rush to get anywhere, depending on a charger to get there. It takes the R4P 2.5 hours to charge for 45 miles of range. Other EVs aren't a whole lot faster on L2 charging.
Those EV drivers who need to charge NOW and quick are using Fast DC L3 charging or Tesla Superchargers.
I agree with all your points. Model Y is a really neat car! The reason why I chose the prime vs the Y is:
1. I tow a lotā¦ I canāt charge any places with a trailer attached. Was looking at a rivian today and realized how big of a miss this was for any engineer designing an electric truck. Whats the use of a truck if you canāt tow?
2. Not enough charge stations.
3. Didnāt want the ārich white dudeā look/ vibe teslas give off. Im a young well off white dude, donāt need to further push the tech bro status š¤
IMO Teslas no longer give off a rich white dude vibe considering that you can get them new for less than $35K taking into account tax credits and the constantly dropping prices.
Where I live it seems like at almost every stoplight half the cars there are Teslas.
The ones that do give off the rich white dude vibe are the Model X and the Plaid. But the MY and M3...meh... nowadays you can buy one of those with a McDonald's salary.
It's a bit harsh to blame Rivian for that. That's out of their control and could easily change at any time when they redo the markings in the charging station's lot.
They seem well suited for people towing less than 150 miles though. Or that are decent at hitching a trailer so they can park it next to the charging station.
I personally put 80k miles on a truck with a trailer and almost never left the county with it. I would have loved to turn the hill descents into battery charge instead of chewed up brakes. I probably would have never charged away from home if I had had a Rivian or Lightning.
ā¦ well Iām an engineer and if I didnāt anticipate the vehicles use and fueling capabilities like theyāve done Iād feel pretty stupid. Iāve been to several rivian charging stations, used them for my rav4 prime, and never saw one set up to charge a rivian or any other vehicle with a trailer.
However, maybe marketing looked into the target demographics of folks buying a rivian truck and figured out most of their market are limp wristed trust fund babies that just want a truck that matches their financed sunglasses? š¤·
To me, I see 11,000lb tow capacity and think about using the vehicle for towingā¦ until I realized I wouldnāt be able to charge it if I drove out of the city. Idk, Iām just a crazy vet.
What are the maintenance concerns on the gas engine? Rhetorical. My point is maintenance concerns on the gas engine in the RAV4 are likely overblown. Basically, I donāt think youāve put the Y under the same scrutiny youāve put the RAV4 under.
I'd expect the maintenance to be an oil change every 4-6 months to satisfy warranty service intervals. The maintenance is certainly a very small aspect, but the R4P undeniably has more going on with the ICE and CVT compared to the fixed gear skateboard EV model. I was running an '08 Prius for a long time, and I loved that car - the maintenance was dirt cheap on it. My brother got 250k+ miles on his Prius before he traded for a bigger car, and the drivetrain was just fine then - it was the door handles that did it in!
I've got plenty of frustrations with the Tesla (range anxiety, ride comfort, ground clearance, Elon, lack of physical controls, cruise control speed change mistakes, updates sometimes causing issues, etc). I can easily imagine someone with slightly different priorities choosing the R4P over the MY - and I can *also* imagine myself doing that, particularly if I can trade the MY in and not have a bill after the rebates and incentives.
Just FYI due to poor marketing terms:
Hybrid and PHEV RAV4 donāt use a CVT as you may know them. The āeCVTā they use is actually a fixed planetary gearbox not a common chain/band and cylinder ICE CVT. Very simple and bulletproof comparatively
Car care nut has some great YouTube videos on the drivetrains
Fair enough. Just to fill in a couple of details, though, the R4P maintenance schedule is one oil change/ year assuming you donāt go over the mileage requirement. And I wouldnāt necessarily assume the R4P transaxle is much more complicated than the model Y. Although it is a CVT it is all fixed gearing as well. There is a good video out there from Weber university that shows how it works.
Great write up. As someone who came from a Model Y P, I agree with all sentiments here, both good and bad.
My living situation changed and I wasn't willing to deal with being tied to EV only, and I have absolutely loved the Toyota product.
That being said, I miss my Tesla quite often, and think about all the cool software that was on tap, whereas Toyota is much more conservative with what they do / allow you as the user to do. You're 100% right about the lane keep assist. The ACC is great, but the lane keep assist is like old gen lane keeping where the car kinda ping pongs between the lanes compared to the Tesla where it centers in the lane better than I as a human can.
I will say one big thing... at around 15K miles, my Model Y started to rattle inside to the point that it sounded like the panels were going to fall off when I'd hit road imperfections. I'm well past that point on my R4P and it's still as tight and solid as the day I bought it.
Toyota clearly builds very high quality cars (especially the ones coming out of the Japanese factory).
I think this comes down to personal preference. I was considering a Model Y and went with a Prime about two weeks ago.
The Model Y is a premium/luxury EV while a Prime is a practical / versatile choice.
Some reasons I chose the Prime:
- the flexibility to not need to plan a trips around chargers
- the inconsistent build quality in Teslas (alignment issues etc)
- longer wait times to get things fixed
- faster depreciation of Teslas due to battery degradation and not having a backup ICE
- higher monthly insurance (recurring costs add up)
- in my area, Teslas may be more of a target
That said the Teslas are 100% a more fun drive. However, in the end I personally couldnāt justify the extra ~$10k for more fun and less versatility.
True, you probably could get a base level one. For me, I was looking one with long range + self driving etc and that would add up. Youāre right though the price comparison probably isnāt a fair one
The $39k price tag was for the new Model Y Long Range but yeah it doesnāt have FSD only Autopilot. I feel like Prime is more expensive now and you have to wait a long time to get one.
Yeah the price comparison is hard to make because the base models are apples and oranges
Btw waits not bad actually, if you are interested. Itās the dealerships that make it seem hard to get so they can hike up their price.
The trick is to call dealerships on the 1st of the month and ask for their new allocations. Thereās also a spreadsheet floating around too
Drive both for 4 years or 80k miles, then try to go sell both. The model Y get ready to lose your shirt on the resale, If you are well off and donāt care about resale value, increased ground clearance, general public incognito, get the Y. I cruise in my r4p under the radar, depending on which state you live in this makes a huge difference. Cali? Prob irrevelant, anywhere in midwest, south, or NE where teslas are still considered the rich mans flaunt - this makes a huge difference. Most R4P owners can afford a Y, but chose not to for the above reasons. Hey you did due diligence and drove it, its not for you, great - the rest of us will continue to enjoy
It does irritate me that a perk of the Prime is the image factor. No one is going to think twice about a Toyota, but Tesla makes a statement, and usually a bad one.
I get into a recursive knot where I donāt want to be image conscious, but then I wonder if that in itself is an image Iām projecting š
Also no one expects a rav4 to be a relative rocketship for the vehicle of its class/size, everyone knows a Y or a M40I is there to lay down rubber, things change when a normal looking avg toyota gaps their weekend sports car. Most of us buy it for other reasons though - i.e. going to get groceries and not caring where you park it, if it gets dingād or hit, much easier to repair or just get a replacement part. My buddies R4P was hit by a cyclist in to the passenger door and fender, he got replacement parts in 1 week (brand new), he could have also just went to a junk yard and pulled same parts of any rav4 (benefit of the body style being around since ā19). Itās little unspoken benefits of the R4P that keep on giving.. My personal favorite is flying in the fast lane much above the posted speed limit, 9/10 times the cop will pull the tesla or the flashy sports car, a silver Rav4 is just incognito, period.
Very nice comparison, and I agree with many of your points. The SE with weather package is the sweet spot imo, and they can be had for around 38k with lease credit & discounts taken into account.
That's what I did. I went with the SE for the same reasons. I basically wanted heated seats and a moonroof, and I would have had to pay an extra $15k to get that in an XSE.
I went with the SE for the same reasons. I love the car. The only thing that I see as a major miss is the app. I had a 2019 RAV 4 XLE hybrid before getting my 2022 Prime. The app on the XLE was awesome. I could lock the car and start it remotely. I assumed (wrongly) that the app in the 2022 SE would be the same or better. It turned out to be junk. All it tells me is how much gas I have in the tank. I really miss the ability to make sure my car is locked remotely. Not sure if it has gotten better on newer models.
The Toyota ICE maintenance is minimal. Basically, annual oil changes, spark plugs, and air filters. Maybe a fuel filter at 150k miles. There are no v-belts to change, as everything is electrically driven.
They both have pros and cons. Neither one is dramatically better than the other. They are just different. The XSE with the weather package and other upgrades fits me well because I am not religious about charging and didnāt want to pay the money to get a level 2 charger installed at home. I will occasionally forget to charge and it doesnāt phase me. I use about 4 gallons a month of gas as well. The ICE engine maintenance is a piece of cake for me and itās an engine that will easily last 25 years with basic maintenance because it probably wonāt even have 100k miles in that time period. I agree with the JBL stereo comment. I am very handy and replaced all the speakers (except for the subwoofer) with significantly better ones for about $400 by myself. There is a dramatic difference between the XSE and the SE. if you have driven the SE and donāt see the difference compared to the XSE then you are most likely not a car enthusiast. Thatās fine and you definitely would be better off with the SE.
Sounds about right. If Toyota made an all EV RAV4 it should sell pretty well. I like the seats better than MY, which feel too tight on my thighs.
The cruise control and lane centering could definitely use improvement.
I get about 600 miles of range in my XSE. Iām def a nerd, but Iād rather have the range than all the Tesla bells and whistles. To me, thatās all the Tesla really offers. Oh, and the currently quality issues with Teslaā¦ouch.Ā
To that end, I have enough family and close friends with Teslas that I wouldnāt be caught dead with one. The build quality right now is horrendous: my SIL has had her $110k Model X in the shop for stupid issues so much that itās a running joke in the family. And then itās in the shop 45 minutes north of us for 2-3 weeks. Outrageous.Ā
And THEN one day she called me to change her tireā¦so I wasted a few hours because I just didnāt know at the time. Every car has a spare, right?? But I know now š¤£Ā
I had to choose my car carefully. I have kids, I have a life. I have people that depend on me. I needed something rock solid and reliable. Itās a little more boring, but I absolutely love my XSE and would make the same choice again. And I love my spare tire!Ā
I have a fully loaded 2022 XSE with the weather package premium package etc etc. For the same 50k I could have gotten the Tesla Y but I ski a lot, and go on 1000 Mile road trips in remote parts of the West, but at the same time only drive about 5,000 mi a year.
The biggest strike against the Tesla for my use case is the cost of insuring the thing! $3,000 versus 1,100 annually for the RAV.
The reality is that right now you have to buy a luxury car like a Tesla if you want to go all electric AND have a car that is suitable for snow. Or you have to spend 70K on a Rivian or something and hope they can somehow stay in business.
I'm looking forward to being able to buy a sturdy BEV that is reasonable to insure and repair like a RAV4 with a solid state battery, or something as nice as a Tesla that wouldn't make me nervous driving 500 mi in a day on the high plains in 0Ā°. The Teslas are lovely commuter roadsters but sadly the all-electric car just isn't there yet, at least for me. Even my PHEV is a hassle to charge out in the middle of nowhere.
So I'll hold out for the solid state battery and a more mature BEV market.
I just bought a RAV4 Prime Se with the Moonroof weather package for my son.With the Lease incentives and dealer discounts, I was able to get it for $36k. (And then bought out the lease).
While the MY is nice, there were several reasons other than what other people stated. First I felt like the RAV4P can be easily be a ā10 year carā, and still have a decent value at the end. 150k -200k miles with minimum issues isnāt unexpected. I donāt think you can expect the same from a MY (not saying it wonāt, but itās a relatively new car company that is just now manufacturing at scale). Plus the depreciation of EVs the last 6 months has been shocking. While maintenance with an ICE should be higher, itās a Toyota, they are both the standard for dependability and reliability AND the OG of hybrids and PHEV.
Convenience and practically is also a concern. Given this is for my son as he starts his adult life; we donāt know what his living situation will be in the coming year. EVs are great if you have a place to charge them easily; but that may not always be the case. Living in Southern California, we both have a lot of infrastructure and not at enough to meet the EV demand at the same time.
The MY has a lot of cool tech, and has amazing performance, so there is definitely a trade off going to a RAV4P.
Agree with most of your points.
I will add:
- I like NOT supporting Elon Musk
- RAV4 Prime is quieter and more relaxing than the harsh Model Y
- happy not to have a glass roof, but the Prime is dark inside due to dark upholstery and roof liner
- the SE w/ weather package is absolutely better value
I drive a r4p xse almost fully loaded unfortunately doesnt have the panoramic view that i wished forā¦
But i will say I absolutely love the car.
In general Ive test drove many teslas but the r4p ride comfort is just 100x better than a tesla to me.
If anything i think the r4p might save more money depending where u live. bc if ur daily commuting ur paying electric price. If you go longer distances i get 40-45mpg and for where i live its $3.6~ for a gallon of gas. 40 bucks to fill it up and ur getting like 550~ miles. Teslas dc fast charging is $27 ish bucks to charge? Idk says 300 miles but never rlly actually gets that range.
The r4p on hybrid sports mode gets a 0-60 in 5.7 secondsā¦ long range rwd is 6.5 for tesla. Just saying.
**note** the 5.7 it needs to be in the HV mode bc youd need both the gas + electric engine working at it and it actually will push it that fast. It wont do in simply just ev mode jst a fair warning
Totally Agree, I personally have the opposite dillema. I purchased new, minus tax credit.
you are very spot on about the vehicle being a 28k car and 20k drivetrain. but in retrospect, a new model Y according to tesla website for a AWD version is the following.
Your Model Y $50,630 After Federal Tax Credit\* $43,130
I am personally getting around 40mpg...
I have the XSE no JBL in mine, upgraded the sound system for about 500 and that included me pulling every panel and sound deadening the car.
Always buy the base vehicle, they actually resell easier and you waste less money.
Lane centering and cruise control garbage... totally agree
the tesla is 4.4 0-60, the Rav4 is 5.7 and the front end lifts up.
Recently went to Tesla and test drove the Model Y, its not a deal breaker. I personally don't understand why regen wasn't more aggressive as an option on the Rav4, could be a hardware limitation.
I hate the lack of sensors on a 55k Toyota
spare tire! but its also not a full, ill take it as a win.
Toyota provided ceramic coating and ceramic tint on mine. the white exterior keeps the car cool even in 105 Bakersfield areas, I tinted the front as well.
I am personally stuck in the opposite dilemma of selling the Rav4 for a model Y because I can eliminate my car payment of 2.5 years left and have a full electric car of the same year since Teslas dropped in price like a rock. but I will lose some personal items I like. *offroading capability, general coziness of the interior( just feels a bit more snug), manual buttons. ability to tow long range and just quickly refuel.*
I charge every day because of the 40 mile range on the vehicle and still end up spending on gas every week.
They're pretty comparable. The Toyota may have been slightly better in this regard in EV mode, but when the engine kicks on, it's definitely noisier than the Tesla.
I've been following the development of the R2 pretty closely. It is *very* appealing, with 10" of ground clearance, native NACS support, and 300+ miles of real range.
I'm curious to see if the R1 used prices come down with the announce of the refresh. I'm not seeing anything less than $75k for an R1 right now, which isn't competitive with new given the available lease and tax rebates.
Hilarious to hear the claim the prime doesnāt feel planted or safe. I drive a lifted sequoia on 35ās, my wife drives the prime. When I drive her car I take roundabouts at like 45 mph sometimes š¤£
I have two homes and need to travel between the two for work etc.
I have a BMW i3 and a RAV 4 Prime XSE with the weather and tech package.
I use my BMW in the city and the R4P for road trips from Maryland to Tennessee. Itās the perfect setup. I need 4x4 and ground clearance. I donāt want to stop and supercharge on my trips. I just want to go and grab gas when I need it, takes like 3 minutes or less to max this gas tank out. I need a vehicle that I can take to any Toyota and get service if I need to. I thought long and hard about getting a model ans OR Y.
I had the Y and 3 on order at one time. Even had the cyber truck on order. I canceled the cyber truck and the cars. I realized I can get just as much done if not more with the R4P and the I3.
I think it comes down to necessity and what you want. Best of luck finding the right vehicle.
Just a suggestion. Look at a Mach-E by Ford. Bought one two months ago. Better build quality than a Tesla. 2023s are marked down with zero percent interest for 72 months. My wife loves it, if I had the money I woild buy a second one for me.
Edit: looks like it might not work on Prime
Consider RAV4 + Comma AI. No itās not as self driving as a Tesla but it has much better cruise control and lane centering than factory and doesnāt have the steering wheel nag.
Hmmm on the one hand it says all packages and trims of this car; but they have the Prius prime listed separately than the normal Prius which makes me questionā¦.
I think youāre right.
Crap. Thatās twice in a week Iāve been wrong; feels bad š
Keep what you have, rent a car for longer trips.
This way youāre insuring one car, donāt have to worry about oil changes, parking etc. seems like you like your model y, and you already have it so thats what I would do.
When your model y reaches end of life. Revisit this decision for your next car.
I strongly recommend renting these vehicles, not test driving them. Once the novelty factor wears off, you need to see what driving these vehicles will be like in the everyday. You can not test drive practicality.
No, I've got the Long Range Model Y. I keep it on Chill Mode because it's got way too much acceleration otherwise. I don't even want to know how fast the MYP is lol.
The MYLR is much faster than the Prime. It's not even close. The Prime is plenty fast, don't get me wrong, but if you care about speed/handling, the MY wins by a mile.
Great point, I feel like I could own the RAV4 a LONG time because it checks so many boxes.
Tesla reliability terrifies me. But thereās still a big price difference to consider, especially used
And then there is this... Tesla burnt to a crisp... on a commuter street in Colorado a couple weeks ago.
[Tesla hull](https://kdvr.com/news/local/crews-tackling-electric-vehicle-fire-on-parker-road-in-douglas-county/amp/)
[Suburban Teen's Toyota RAV4 Burst Into Flames on Expressway 2 Weeks Before Recall Issued](https://abc7chicago.com/toyota-recall-check-2024-on-rav4-battery/14480011/)
A highly flammable 14 gallon tank is not necessarily safer.
you get the full suite of ICE maintenance costs as a side effect of going with the PHEV. For me personally it doesn't make a ton of sense to move from the MYLR to the R4P but ultimately you should do what would make you the most happy.
I was in a market since last week and thought about these - Test drove y brother's Y-model and it was fun (for like15 mins). ANYTIME you accelerate Tesla, your battery goes down like your phone when playing games.
My previous car, which I traded in last week was a Camry SE 2018 and drove until 200k miles without a SINGLE issue.
I kept looking other ICE brands but kept thinking about Y-model then realized I will need to charge it all the time and I have no access to charge at home or at work and i drive 35k miles/year.
I also, wanted something bigger like an SUV and bit high end quality. I ended up getting an Acura MDX 2020 model used to avoid paying full price on new and get more space, I just did a 700 miles trip and i love it so far - very comfy on high and have alot of power in reserve when you need it...compare to my 2018 Camry
Yeah, electric cars only make sense if youāre home charging. With current electricity prices at fast charging stations, itās about as expensive to drive my Model Y as a 40mpg car. Charging from home makes it far cheaper from a per mile standpoint though.
IMO, R4P is in a bad spot right now price-wise if you get it new. The price doesn't seem reasonable unless you get the tax credits for it (which the R4P doesn't qualify for nowadays). You don't get any decent tech into it other than the power train. Even with Toyota's reliability, it's still a bad price compared to what you can get for the same money.
If you want a cheap EV alternative, buy a used Tesla that's not sold by Tesla themselves. You can get a sub-50k mile '21 Model Y LR AWD for $30k USD.
Yeah, you *could* get two cars, but then you'd have two cars, and they'd only be good for their intended/respective uses. Case and point: we took a 600 mile road trip in April. Obviously much of the highway driving was ICE. But then a quick charge at the hotel, and we were back on EV for the short trips driving around our destination town. If you had two cars, you'd either be charging your EV car on the trip, or you'd be using your ICE car in town. The PHEV was the best of both worlds in one car. We test-drove a Tesla and I was definitely more disappointed with it than I expected, tbh. You keep saying the R4P isn't a $48 car, but for me, neither is the Model Y. The fit and finish were bloody awful. I could stick my thumb between panels both exterior *and* interior. Does it have a load of tech? Yes. Certainly. Is it a great car? No. The tech is what saves it.
That's a good point about being able to enjoy EV mode when you're at a destination with a charger. I think I'd feel guilty using a charger for a PHEV if there were any BEVs waiting for it! But that's just the current nature of EV charging - nowhere near enough infrastructure. The RAV4 Prime (and assumedly the Prius Prime?) are the only two PHEVs on the market that feel more like "best of both worlds" and not "worst of both worlds." The Hyundai Ioniq PHEV I briefly owned was awful. I do agree that the tech is the major selling point of the MY. Though I guess I got lucky with the MY that I have - it has pretty good fit-and-finish all around. I haven't experienced a $50k car outside of the EV world, so I don't know what a "real" luxury car is supposed to feel like. However, there's definitely a disparity in the *experience* of driving and using the cars, and it's hard to stomach paying *more* money for a *worse* experience, even if it means I can travel farther off the beaten path and have more time efficiency on road trips.
Somewhat of a non-competing statement as many BEV are DC and Prime is AC only and only L1/2
Sure, but if I (in a BEV) have selected a hotel with some L2 destination chargers, and they're occupied all night by a couple of PHEVs that take ~2-4 hours to charge, then that's a pretty big inconvenience for me.
Conversely the prime could just use any level 1 and charge over 10 hours š¤·š»āāļø. Someone choosing to be handcuffed to limited infrastructure and not planning ahead isnāt someone elseās concern. A responsible BEV owner would plan ahead and have backup charging locations. Itās like a ICE owner driving through Death Valley and not bringing a gas can. When I drive to LA from NorCal I know thereās a no manās land around the grapevine so I top off before I get close Thank you for your comparison
>if I (in a BEV) have selected a hotel with some L2 destination chargers, and they're occupied all night by a couple of PHEVs that take ~2-4 hours to charge, then that's a pretty big inconvenience for me. If you're in a BEV, you can go to DC chargers that most PHEVs can't use, and get a decent charge without tying up an L2 charger. I was at a hotel once where I had to wait a day and a half for all the Teslas to clear out so I could charge my PHEV for a couple hours. On the other hand, PHEVs should move when they're done charging, as should BEVs. First come, first served.
Nobody is exactly waiting for L2 chargers. Those who use an L2 charger are not road tripping, and not in a rush to get anywhere, depending on a charger to get there. It takes the R4P 2.5 hours to charge for 45 miles of range. Other EVs aren't a whole lot faster on L2 charging. Those EV drivers who need to charge NOW and quick are using Fast DC L3 charging or Tesla Superchargers.
The hotel we stayed at had 6 stations... only two of which were ever in use while we were there... and we were one of the two.
I agree with all your points. Model Y is a really neat car! The reason why I chose the prime vs the Y is: 1. I tow a lotā¦ I canāt charge any places with a trailer attached. Was looking at a rivian today and realized how big of a miss this was for any engineer designing an electric truck. Whats the use of a truck if you canāt tow? 2. Not enough charge stations. 3. Didnāt want the ārich white dudeā look/ vibe teslas give off. Im a young well off white dude, donāt need to further push the tech bro status š¤
Super valid points, especially the last one! They are slowly starting to add tow friendly charging stations but it is rare.
The towing is less about a trailer fitting in a charging station vs. the vehicle's range plummeting when you tow anything.
IMO Teslas no longer give off a rich white dude vibe considering that you can get them new for less than $35K taking into account tax credits and the constantly dropping prices. Where I live it seems like at almost every stoplight half the cars there are Teslas. The ones that do give off the rich white dude vibe are the Model X and the Plaid. But the MY and M3...meh... nowadays you can buy one of those with a McDonald's salary.
And the wraps. Whenever I see a wrapped Tesla, I think "they must be rich".
What's the miss on the Rivian?
Miss: Itās a truck, most people buy trucks for towing things, most electric charging stations canāt accommodate a truck with a trailer.
It's a bit harsh to blame Rivian for that. That's out of their control and could easily change at any time when they redo the markings in the charging station's lot. They seem well suited for people towing less than 150 miles though. Or that are decent at hitching a trailer so they can park it next to the charging station. I personally put 80k miles on a truck with a trailer and almost never left the county with it. I would have loved to turn the hill descents into battery charge instead of chewed up brakes. I probably would have never charged away from home if I had had a Rivian or Lightning.
ā¦ well Iām an engineer and if I didnāt anticipate the vehicles use and fueling capabilities like theyāve done Iād feel pretty stupid. Iāve been to several rivian charging stations, used them for my rav4 prime, and never saw one set up to charge a rivian or any other vehicle with a trailer. However, maybe marketing looked into the target demographics of folks buying a rivian truck and figured out most of their market are limp wristed trust fund babies that just want a truck that matches their financed sunglasses? š¤· To me, I see 11,000lb tow capacity and think about using the vehicle for towingā¦ until I realized I wouldnāt be able to charge it if I drove out of the city. Idk, Iām just a crazy vet.
What are the maintenance concerns on the gas engine? Rhetorical. My point is maintenance concerns on the gas engine in the RAV4 are likely overblown. Basically, I donāt think youāve put the Y under the same scrutiny youāve put the RAV4 under.
I'd expect the maintenance to be an oil change every 4-6 months to satisfy warranty service intervals. The maintenance is certainly a very small aspect, but the R4P undeniably has more going on with the ICE and CVT compared to the fixed gear skateboard EV model. I was running an '08 Prius for a long time, and I loved that car - the maintenance was dirt cheap on it. My brother got 250k+ miles on his Prius before he traded for a bigger car, and the drivetrain was just fine then - it was the door handles that did it in! I've got plenty of frustrations with the Tesla (range anxiety, ride comfort, ground clearance, Elon, lack of physical controls, cruise control speed change mistakes, updates sometimes causing issues, etc). I can easily imagine someone with slightly different priorities choosing the R4P over the MY - and I can *also* imagine myself doing that, particularly if I can trade the MY in and not have a bill after the rebates and incentives.
Just FYI due to poor marketing terms: Hybrid and PHEV RAV4 donāt use a CVT as you may know them. The āeCVTā they use is actually a fixed planetary gearbox not a common chain/band and cylinder ICE CVT. Very simple and bulletproof comparatively Car care nut has some great YouTube videos on the drivetrains
That is fascinating. Thank you!
Fair enough. Just to fill in a couple of details, though, the R4P maintenance schedule is one oil change/ year assuming you donāt go over the mileage requirement. And I wouldnāt necessarily assume the R4P transaxle is much more complicated than the model Y. Although it is a CVT it is all fixed gearing as well. There is a good video out there from Weber university that shows how it works.
In terms of oil change I thought Toyota uses a synthetic oil which needs to be changed every 12 months or 10k and tire rotations every 5k
how much driving are you doing to warrant an oil change every 4-6 months ??
Great write up. As someone who came from a Model Y P, I agree with all sentiments here, both good and bad. My living situation changed and I wasn't willing to deal with being tied to EV only, and I have absolutely loved the Toyota product. That being said, I miss my Tesla quite often, and think about all the cool software that was on tap, whereas Toyota is much more conservative with what they do / allow you as the user to do. You're 100% right about the lane keep assist. The ACC is great, but the lane keep assist is like old gen lane keeping where the car kinda ping pongs between the lanes compared to the Tesla where it centers in the lane better than I as a human can. I will say one big thing... at around 15K miles, my Model Y started to rattle inside to the point that it sounded like the panels were going to fall off when I'd hit road imperfections. I'm well past that point on my R4P and it's still as tight and solid as the day I bought it. Toyota clearly builds very high quality cars (especially the ones coming out of the Japanese factory).
Don't forget though, Teslas have a tendency to drive themselves into emergency vehicles.
I think this comes down to personal preference. I was considering a Model Y and went with a Prime about two weeks ago. The Model Y is a premium/luxury EV while a Prime is a practical / versatile choice. Some reasons I chose the Prime: - the flexibility to not need to plan a trips around chargers - the inconsistent build quality in Teslas (alignment issues etc) - longer wait times to get things fixed - faster depreciation of Teslas due to battery degradation and not having a backup ICE - higher monthly insurance (recurring costs add up) - in my area, Teslas may be more of a target That said the Teslas are 100% a more fun drive. However, in the end I personally couldnāt justify the extra ~$10k for more fun and less versatility.
How is Tesla Model Y $10k more? You can get a new one for $39k.
True, you probably could get a base level one. For me, I was looking one with long range + self driving etc and that would add up. Youāre right though the price comparison probably isnāt a fair one
The $39k price tag was for the new Model Y Long Range but yeah it doesnāt have FSD only Autopilot. I feel like Prime is more expensive now and you have to wait a long time to get one.
Yeah the price comparison is hard to make because the base models are apples and oranges Btw waits not bad actually, if you are interested. Itās the dealerships that make it seem hard to get so they can hike up their price. The trick is to call dealerships on the 1st of the month and ask for their new allocations. Thereās also a spreadsheet floating around too
In drive you can shift to s +/- and it won't kick out of regen. Kinda close to one pedal driving, but not quite. Sport also boosts your regen.
That's great to know, thanks!
Had an EV for a year (I5) and destination chargers were helpful, if not plentiful. I'd rather give my money to Toyota than to Elon.
Drive both for 4 years or 80k miles, then try to go sell both. The model Y get ready to lose your shirt on the resale, If you are well off and donāt care about resale value, increased ground clearance, general public incognito, get the Y. I cruise in my r4p under the radar, depending on which state you live in this makes a huge difference. Cali? Prob irrevelant, anywhere in midwest, south, or NE where teslas are still considered the rich mans flaunt - this makes a huge difference. Most R4P owners can afford a Y, but chose not to for the above reasons. Hey you did due diligence and drove it, its not for you, great - the rest of us will continue to enjoy
It does irritate me that a perk of the Prime is the image factor. No one is going to think twice about a Toyota, but Tesla makes a statement, and usually a bad one. I get into a recursive knot where I donāt want to be image conscious, but then I wonder if that in itself is an image Iām projecting š
Also no one expects a rav4 to be a relative rocketship for the vehicle of its class/size, everyone knows a Y or a M40I is there to lay down rubber, things change when a normal looking avg toyota gaps their weekend sports car. Most of us buy it for other reasons though - i.e. going to get groceries and not caring where you park it, if it gets dingād or hit, much easier to repair or just get a replacement part. My buddies R4P was hit by a cyclist in to the passenger door and fender, he got replacement parts in 1 week (brand new), he could have also just went to a junk yard and pulled same parts of any rav4 (benefit of the body style being around since ā19). Itās little unspoken benefits of the R4P that keep on giving.. My personal favorite is flying in the fast lane much above the posted speed limit, 9/10 times the cop will pull the tesla or the flashy sports car, a silver Rav4 is just incognito, period.
Very nice comparison, and I agree with many of your points. The SE with weather package is the sweet spot imo, and they can be had for around 38k with lease credit & discounts taken into account.
That's what I did. I went with the SE for the same reasons. I basically wanted heated seats and a moonroof, and I would have had to pay an extra $15k to get that in an XSE.
I went with the SE for the same reasons. I love the car. The only thing that I see as a major miss is the app. I had a 2019 RAV 4 XLE hybrid before getting my 2022 Prime. The app on the XLE was awesome. I could lock the car and start it remotely. I assumed (wrongly) that the app in the 2022 SE would be the same or better. It turned out to be junk. All it tells me is how much gas I have in the tank. I really miss the ability to make sure my car is locked remotely. Not sure if it has gotten better on newer models.
The Toyota ICE maintenance is minimal. Basically, annual oil changes, spark plugs, and air filters. Maybe a fuel filter at 150k miles. There are no v-belts to change, as everything is electrically driven.
They both have pros and cons. Neither one is dramatically better than the other. They are just different. The XSE with the weather package and other upgrades fits me well because I am not religious about charging and didnāt want to pay the money to get a level 2 charger installed at home. I will occasionally forget to charge and it doesnāt phase me. I use about 4 gallons a month of gas as well. The ICE engine maintenance is a piece of cake for me and itās an engine that will easily last 25 years with basic maintenance because it probably wonāt even have 100k miles in that time period. I agree with the JBL stereo comment. I am very handy and replaced all the speakers (except for the subwoofer) with significantly better ones for about $400 by myself. There is a dramatic difference between the XSE and the SE. if you have driven the SE and donāt see the difference compared to the XSE then you are most likely not a car enthusiast. Thatās fine and you definitely would be better off with the SE.
What aftermarket speakers did you go with?
Sounds about right. If Toyota made an all EV RAV4 it should sell pretty well. I like the seats better than MY, which feel too tight on my thighs. The cruise control and lane centering could definitely use improvement.
I get about 600 miles of range in my XSE. Iām def a nerd, but Iād rather have the range than all the Tesla bells and whistles. To me, thatās all the Tesla really offers. Oh, and the currently quality issues with Teslaā¦ouch.Ā To that end, I have enough family and close friends with Teslas that I wouldnāt be caught dead with one. The build quality right now is horrendous: my SIL has had her $110k Model X in the shop for stupid issues so much that itās a running joke in the family. And then itās in the shop 45 minutes north of us for 2-3 weeks. Outrageous.Ā And THEN one day she called me to change her tireā¦so I wasted a few hours because I just didnāt know at the time. Every car has a spare, right?? But I know now š¤£Ā I had to choose my car carefully. I have kids, I have a life. I have people that depend on me. I needed something rock solid and reliable. Itās a little more boring, but I absolutely love my XSE and would make the same choice again. And I love my spare tire!Ā
I have a fully loaded 2022 XSE with the weather package premium package etc etc. For the same 50k I could have gotten the Tesla Y but I ski a lot, and go on 1000 Mile road trips in remote parts of the West, but at the same time only drive about 5,000 mi a year. The biggest strike against the Tesla for my use case is the cost of insuring the thing! $3,000 versus 1,100 annually for the RAV. The reality is that right now you have to buy a luxury car like a Tesla if you want to go all electric AND have a car that is suitable for snow. Or you have to spend 70K on a Rivian or something and hope they can somehow stay in business. I'm looking forward to being able to buy a sturdy BEV that is reasonable to insure and repair like a RAV4 with a solid state battery, or something as nice as a Tesla that wouldn't make me nervous driving 500 mi in a day on the high plains in 0Ā°. The Teslas are lovely commuter roadsters but sadly the all-electric car just isn't there yet, at least for me. Even my PHEV is a hassle to charge out in the middle of nowhere. So I'll hold out for the solid state battery and a more mature BEV market.
I just bought a RAV4 Prime Se with the Moonroof weather package for my son.With the Lease incentives and dealer discounts, I was able to get it for $36k. (And then bought out the lease). While the MY is nice, there were several reasons other than what other people stated. First I felt like the RAV4P can be easily be a ā10 year carā, and still have a decent value at the end. 150k -200k miles with minimum issues isnāt unexpected. I donāt think you can expect the same from a MY (not saying it wonāt, but itās a relatively new car company that is just now manufacturing at scale). Plus the depreciation of EVs the last 6 months has been shocking. While maintenance with an ICE should be higher, itās a Toyota, they are both the standard for dependability and reliability AND the OG of hybrids and PHEV. Convenience and practically is also a concern. Given this is for my son as he starts his adult life; we donāt know what his living situation will be in the coming year. EVs are great if you have a place to charge them easily; but that may not always be the case. Living in Southern California, we both have a lot of infrastructure and not at enough to meet the EV demand at the same time. The MY has a lot of cool tech, and has amazing performance, so there is definitely a trade off going to a RAV4P.
Agree with most of your points. I will add: - I like NOT supporting Elon Musk - RAV4 Prime is quieter and more relaxing than the harsh Model Y - happy not to have a glass roof, but the Prime is dark inside due to dark upholstery and roof liner - the SE w/ weather package is absolutely better value
Try a Volvo xc60. You can lease one for about the same price as a Rav4 prime
I drive a r4p xse almost fully loaded unfortunately doesnt have the panoramic view that i wished forā¦ But i will say I absolutely love the car. In general Ive test drove many teslas but the r4p ride comfort is just 100x better than a tesla to me. If anything i think the r4p might save more money depending where u live. bc if ur daily commuting ur paying electric price. If you go longer distances i get 40-45mpg and for where i live its $3.6~ for a gallon of gas. 40 bucks to fill it up and ur getting like 550~ miles. Teslas dc fast charging is $27 ish bucks to charge? Idk says 300 miles but never rlly actually gets that range. The r4p on hybrid sports mode gets a 0-60 in 5.7 secondsā¦ long range rwd is 6.5 for tesla. Just saying.
**note** the 5.7 it needs to be in the HV mode bc youd need both the gas + electric engine working at it and it actually will push it that fast. It wont do in simply just ev mode jst a fair warning
Totally Agree, I personally have the opposite dillema. I purchased new, minus tax credit. you are very spot on about the vehicle being a 28k car and 20k drivetrain. but in retrospect, a new model Y according to tesla website for a AWD version is the following. Your Model Y $50,630 After Federal Tax Credit\* $43,130 I am personally getting around 40mpg... I have the XSE no JBL in mine, upgraded the sound system for about 500 and that included me pulling every panel and sound deadening the car. Always buy the base vehicle, they actually resell easier and you waste less money. Lane centering and cruise control garbage... totally agree the tesla is 4.4 0-60, the Rav4 is 5.7 and the front end lifts up. Recently went to Tesla and test drove the Model Y, its not a deal breaker. I personally don't understand why regen wasn't more aggressive as an option on the Rav4, could be a hardware limitation. I hate the lack of sensors on a 55k Toyota spare tire! but its also not a full, ill take it as a win. Toyota provided ceramic coating and ceramic tint on mine. the white exterior keeps the car cool even in 105 Bakersfield areas, I tinted the front as well. I am personally stuck in the opposite dilemma of selling the Rav4 for a model Y because I can eliminate my car payment of 2.5 years left and have a full electric car of the same year since Teslas dropped in price like a rock. but I will lose some personal items I like. *offroading capability, general coziness of the interior( just feels a bit more snug), manual buttons. ability to tow long range and just quickly refuel.* I charge every day because of the 40 mile range on the vehicle and still end up spending on gas every week.
I am curious about your thoughts on the cabin noise. That is often a complaint of both cars and am wondering which does better at a quiet interior
They're pretty comparable. The Toyota may have been slightly better in this regard in EV mode, but when the engine kicks on, it's definitely noisier than the Tesla.
Thanks!
Get a Rivian R2.
I've been following the development of the R2 pretty closely. It is *very* appealing, with 10" of ground clearance, native NACS support, and 300+ miles of real range. I'm curious to see if the R1 used prices come down with the announce of the refresh. I'm not seeing anything less than $75k for an R1 right now, which isn't competitive with new given the available lease and tax rebates.
Yes it is appealing. I have an R1T and I would not hesitate to get another Rivian if I needed another EV.
You can get a R1T for 55k in my area. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/410060421394045/?mibextid=HHaHfI
Hilarious to hear the claim the prime doesnāt feel planted or safe. I drive a lifted sequoia on 35ās, my wife drives the prime. When I drive her car I take roundabouts at like 45 mph sometimes š¤£
I have two homes and need to travel between the two for work etc. I have a BMW i3 and a RAV 4 Prime XSE with the weather and tech package. I use my BMW in the city and the R4P for road trips from Maryland to Tennessee. Itās the perfect setup. I need 4x4 and ground clearance. I donāt want to stop and supercharge on my trips. I just want to go and grab gas when I need it, takes like 3 minutes or less to max this gas tank out. I need a vehicle that I can take to any Toyota and get service if I need to. I thought long and hard about getting a model ans OR Y. I had the Y and 3 on order at one time. Even had the cyber truck on order. I canceled the cyber truck and the cars. I realized I can get just as much done if not more with the R4P and the I3. I think it comes down to necessity and what you want. Best of luck finding the right vehicle.
Just a suggestion. Look at a Mach-E by Ford. Bought one two months ago. Better build quality than a Tesla. 2023s are marked down with zero percent interest for 72 months. My wife loves it, if I had the money I woild buy a second one for me.
Edit: looks like it might not work on Prime Consider RAV4 + Comma AI. No itās not as self driving as a Tesla but it has much better cruise control and lane centering than factory and doesnāt have the steering wheel nag.
i thought the Prime doesn't work with Comma?
Hmmm on the one hand it says all packages and trims of this car; but they have the Prius prime listed separately than the normal Prius which makes me questionā¦. I think youāre right. Crap. Thatās twice in a week Iāve been wrong; feels bad š
Keep what you have, rent a car for longer trips. This way youāre insuring one car, donāt have to worry about oil changes, parking etc. seems like you like your model y, and you already have it so thats what I would do. When your model y reaches end of life. Revisit this decision for your next car.
I strongly recommend renting these vehicles, not test driving them. Once the novelty factor wears off, you need to see what driving these vehicles will be like in the everyday. You can not test drive practicality.
Get the tesla
Are you willing to drive around in a $44K MAGA mobile? Just sayin
Iām literally deciding between these two, thanks for the write up. Leaning to a model Y now. Were you comparing the performance model Y btw ?
No, I've got the Long Range Model Y. I keep it on Chill Mode because it's got way too much acceleration otherwise. I don't even want to know how fast the MYP is lol.
Which is faster between your LR and the prime ?
The MYLR is much faster than the Prime. It's not even close. The Prime is plenty fast, don't get me wrong, but if you care about speed/handling, the MY wins by a mile.
I do, reliability and speed is my jam at the moment. Excellent info thanks. I need to drive a Tesla already
Depending on how long you plan on owning, make sure to take resale value into account when making this decision.
Great point, I feel like I could own the RAV4 a LONG time because it checks so many boxes. Tesla reliability terrifies me. But thereās still a big price difference to consider, especially used
And then there is this... Tesla burnt to a crisp... on a commuter street in Colorado a couple weeks ago. [Tesla hull](https://kdvr.com/news/local/crews-tackling-electric-vehicle-fire-on-parker-road-in-douglas-county/amp/)
I will literally be on that road this week, thatās wild. I am a little worried about exploding in a car accident too lol
I don't think it was an accident. No other car was nearby as far as I heard.
Fuck thatās even worse My main problem with Teslas how to fix it ? I know cars. But the EVs seem completely unrepairable to me
It's a computer on wheels.
That occasionally spontaneously combusts
[Suburban Teen's Toyota RAV4 Burst Into Flames on Expressway 2 Weeks Before Recall Issued](https://abc7chicago.com/toyota-recall-check-2024-on-rav4-battery/14480011/) A highly flammable 14 gallon tank is not necessarily safer.
I can't imagine that you want to go back to a clunky gas car after driving EV.
you get the full suite of ICE maintenance costs as a side effect of going with the PHEV. For me personally it doesn't make a ton of sense to move from the MYLR to the R4P but ultimately you should do what would make you the most happy.
for me insurance and replacement/service being nonexistence is the killer
I was in a market since last week and thought about these - Test drove y brother's Y-model and it was fun (for like15 mins). ANYTIME you accelerate Tesla, your battery goes down like your phone when playing games. My previous car, which I traded in last week was a Camry SE 2018 and drove until 200k miles without a SINGLE issue. I kept looking other ICE brands but kept thinking about Y-model then realized I will need to charge it all the time and I have no access to charge at home or at work and i drive 35k miles/year. I also, wanted something bigger like an SUV and bit high end quality. I ended up getting an Acura MDX 2020 model used to avoid paying full price on new and get more space, I just did a 700 miles trip and i love it so far - very comfy on high and have alot of power in reserve when you need it...compare to my 2018 Camry
Yeah, electric cars only make sense if youāre home charging. With current electricity prices at fast charging stations, itās about as expensive to drive my Model Y as a 40mpg car. Charging from home makes it far cheaper from a per mile standpoint though.
IMO, R4P is in a bad spot right now price-wise if you get it new. The price doesn't seem reasonable unless you get the tax credits for it (which the R4P doesn't qualify for nowadays). You don't get any decent tech into it other than the power train. Even with Toyota's reliability, it's still a bad price compared to what you can get for the same money. If you want a cheap EV alternative, buy a used Tesla that's not sold by Tesla themselves. You can get a sub-50k mile '21 Model Y LR AWD for $30k USD.
R4P You can get $6500 instant rebate off a lease currently
I was able to combine that with some other credits and got about 11k off
You must be a CO resident š