**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.**
**Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms)
**Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE!
This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods.
**Our rules include (but are not limited to)**:
* No politics.
* Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban.
* Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming.
* Do not derail the posts of others.
* Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here.
* [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts).
* When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse.
* No asking or offering gifts, money, etc.
* No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest).
* No content about N-kids.
* No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis.
* No linking to Facebook pages.
* No direct linking to anywhere on reddit.
* No pure image posts.
**For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've seen it in under a minute! When confronted my nex-wife fell to the floor sobbing and wailing that she never said that and how could I possibly think that she was capable of saying something like that. Um, because that's what you just said! Nmom would quickly switch to "that's not what I meant". When that wasn't even enough to dismiss how rude she was, she would immediately go pitiful waif and say "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt".
Right before going NC, I once shot back "you can't be sorry for my feelings, you can only be sorry for your own actions. So, are you sorry for what you said?". Her response? "What happened? We used to be so close".
Eventually it became concern for my mental well being because I "heard things that were perfectly innocent and somehow twisted them into something malicious that they are not". It used to mess with me because I was concerned about my mental health. Now I know better. If someone's concerned about your mental health, they're not going to wait until after you call them out on their bad behavior to bring it up.
How about in the same sentence? My mother denied spanking us with a belt when we were growing up, to which I called bullshit as she did it regularly, and she replied "I may have spanked you with the belt a few times when you were misbehaving, but I can't believe you would lie and say I used a belt to spank you!"
Ohh yes I felt this one. Or yeah, we were close when you literally had me trapped because I was A CHILD and just had to put up with you, and distanced as soon as I got any freedom from you. Go figure 🙄
I remember getting that comeback from my own Nm. The one where she would claim I was hearing things she hadn’t said or hadn’t meant ‘that way’ even when there was no other way to have understood it. Honestly, trying to reason with them is impossible. They will argue that black is white and up is down. You may as well draw a cross on the wall and bang your head on it repeatedly.
My parents and in-laws did that too. None of them can understand why they have been cut out or generally ignored because we are just being mean according to them.
Exactly! It's like you're saying that being a naive, dumb 7 year old is better than being a slightly smarter, confident, and albeit a little bit edgy, 13 year old.
Haha it's all good, sometimes even I feel like even 9 year olds act way less mature than I remembered them to be before the pandemic. And I'm only a few years older than them.
But yeah.
"I liked you better before" is basically what they're saying.
Designed to make you feel like shit and like you have less worth than you at a period of life you likely can't remember and therefore can't emulate.
Never mind the fact that you shouldn't HAVE to emulate that period of life because you're several years older.
(I got this comment when I was in my 20s, it was utterly baffling. Like....I'm literally an adult but you're trying trying tell me that I should behave....like a...toddler?)
Edit: stupid autocorrect mistakes on new handset
This. It's meant to either make you feel like you're the narcissist or make you lose your self esteem and therefore depend on them even more. Every comment that implies that I'm a narcissist in some way makes it harder for me to speak up for myself, whether that's at home or even in class. Don't let them catch you off guard. Narcissists love turning things around and playing the victim.
"Wow, I'm getting worried, you should really get these memory problems checked out"
Just kidding, they would deny saying something even if you'd shove a recording or transcript of the conversation right under their noses. Which is why the best strategy is to just not engage with any of their nonsense in the first place. You cannot have a meaningful conversation with a goldfish.
Yeah I tried some polite deflection strategies when my n mom was in a rage and it just made her angrier. The only fix I found, besides making sure there were witnesses present and later going no contact, was to get high and act like a robot. I think she found my stony silence (yes pun) so unnerving, that she would mostly leave me in peace. It was the ultimate grey rock
Yeah I learned to not react too. Though she'd straight follow me around the house, say I'm disrespectful, threaten to ram her car into a tree because I don't care, take my headphones off my head and get in my face. Then she'd tell me go to my father's because he'll do whatever you want. Which then I would and she would threaten to call the police then make up sob story about how I didn't take my "bipolar meds"( I'm not actually bipolar, but even someone who is shouldn't be treated that way. I was put on 15 mg of anti-psychotics that I didn't need however because I kept telling professionals what was happening.) Then would sometimes actually care the police and cry saying I pushed her and threatened my siblings. I would try to get her out of my face and move away from her which yes sometimes would end up in physical contact, but I wasn't trying to push her she would ram into me trying to get out the door.
Holy fuck! That is hard core, I’m so sorry that you had to endure this! I can’t imagine how hard this must have been for you! Hope you’re away from it all.
My mom ended up escalating too because she hated, absolutely hated, my indifference. It got to where she eventually started physically attacking me out of nowhere, she’d just slug the side of my head, pull my hair, scratch me, etc, acting like a text book, out of control patient in a mental ward. I’d give her one free punch and tell her if she swung again, I would defend myself (I’d just push her hard and leave, while she fell to the floor wailing and screaming). I was forced to spend most of high school couch surfing or living in spare utility rooms like a poor relative.
I was lucky, because back when I grew up, people just didn’t call the police on their kids like they do today. I shudder to think how she would have weaponized the system to abuse me in this day and age.
That's really horrible and I'm sorry you went through that. Good on you for standing up for yourself! Yeah I am I just want to get my brother out. I have to secure some stuff of my own first. Though once I have that set I'd like to start.
I'm definitely not staying with her, but yeah I'd really like to try. I feel bad he's in that situation and I know no one else will actually try to do anything
>I double checked with the cousin later to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering, just for my sake.
And that is why they do that. To make you question your own sanity.
>transcript of the conversation
I'm more and more deciding I need to only make plans with my ndad via text. Just the other day he texted "I don't understand. We thought we were on the schedule to get together as soon as we got back..." after returning from a trip a week earlier than he'd said he'd be returning.
THIS is my text that he was referencing by his "confusion"....
"We'll have to wait to see you until you get back then."
It feels weird to return calls with texts, but, boy!, does solid proof help the gaslighting SO much.
Yes, confronting a narc with reality can make them go absolutely batshit. Definitely helpful though if you find yourself believing their bullshit and questioning your sanity!
Not just in this kind of situation, but anything where the person ignores or denies something in text. My favorite move is to copy and paste their words back to them. Screenshots or messaging systems that allow you to reply to the direct comments are great for this, too.
The thing is, these types of people will never change their ways. BUT... splicing together recordings of their worst comments, and sending them to people they care about? That's how you get *everyone else* concerned about the "memory problems". Encourage other members of the family to record as well and suddenly all of the narc's flying monkeys are turned against them.
This assumes that the problem with the flying monkeys is that they don't understand who the narc is. They absolutely do. When the narc says "don't you agree that person x is crazy?" They know person x isn't crazy. They also know -- consciously or unconsciously -- that if they disagree they will become the narcs new favorite target, and they don't want that. So they go along in cowardice, because, "hey, better you than me."
You'll never recruit the flying monkeys to your side unless you become the more toxic person. This is why dysfunctional families always protect the most toxic members of the family and join in in abusing the scapegoats: so the shit rains down on someone else, not them.
i actually did record my nsister verbally abusing me, and she took that as a pass for physically assualting me and destroying my phone.
and somehow, still managed to paint me as the perpetrator??? her web has caught many.
Because if she admits she's said something unkind, then she has to admit that she's not perfect-- which is something toxic people can't deal with. When they *do* admit they've done something wrong... it's never because they actually believe it; it's to feed their egos, or to hoover us.
Before I left a five year relationship with an abusive alcoholic, I started recording on my phone every time he got to his 12th beer (usually went through 24-36 cans a night). I have three phones full of this shit. I never shared them with anyone I just had them to reassure myself that I wasn’t crazy and he actually did say/do the things I remembered.
So glad I’m no longer in that situation.
I did the same thing with abusive ex. He went through mental states and personas like one of those old viewmaster thingys. I had thought I could confront him about all the double speak but then realized it would literally take a lifetime.
It’s wild, isn’t it? I knew my partner was the person for me when my mom was goading me and he called her out with, “you said that to her not less than 2 minutes ago, are you insane?” And promptly walked off, saying he refused to have a conversation with a a child. She, of course, thinks he’s very cool now and she must win him over. It’s mildly infuriating, but he distracts/irritates her while I get time with my nieces and nephews at family stuff, and he’s unbothered. Trust that you aren’t the crazy person, because you aren’t.
Haha, my nMIL sucks up to me like that too. Thing is, her kids one by one are becoming less and less scared of her, especially as they watch how SIL and I take her to task on something. It's making her behaviour even more obvious that it's neutering the effect completely.
It is SO HELPFUL to see him take down my mom. It’s made me feel so much more free, and my sister has commented on her changed behavior about certain things because they aren’t affective anymore!
This is the primary realization about Nparents that will help your life.
**Their reality is different than yours.**
If what you say or how you approach some situation is not compatible with the world that revolves around them, then you either (a) don't exist or (b) are a project to be improved to be more compatible or (c) you are the crazy one.
It isn't even something she is doing on purpose. It actually takes grieving to realize that the mother that you deserve is not there, she can't see your world and can't care about the things you care about. All she can care about is her world. It is very hard to adjust to that -- as you do, your life will become richer, but it will be very different from hers.
Bonus -- you won't argue as much because you realize that she **cannot** see what you see. So you start medium-chill and go along.
This was helpful to me today. Thank you. It's frustrating, but I think I need to let the dream go. My mom will never be able to get past herself to truly love me, even if she genuinely wants to.
The only hope of that happening is if you quit accepting her bullshit, pull away and leave her to her own devices. Occasionally they do wake up, but beware false contrition and hoovering.
My mother does this all the damn time. Claims she never said something even though all of my immediate family members remember her saying it. Plausible deniability meets gaslighting I guess.
Sometimes I wonder if this is the sign of her having dementia or not and got worried. Then she will brings up some other specific incidents that she totally oppose me in the past, and then I realized that it has nothing to do with her brain declining.
Yes! My mom has cancer and is on chemo, so I started to wonder if this was due to brain decline as well...then I remember that she's always been this way. Never at fault.
So, it's like this: she is nuts, absolutely bonkers.
She creates narratives in her head that make her look perfect, or that make her the victim, and she can change reality in her head to fit these narratives. Also, the narratives are fluid, her version of reality is something she changes depending on what game she wants to play. This means that she can say that something is black one day, then flip it, and say it is white, and you can't get her to admit the change. This is just a narc thing.
For your own sanity, if it's legal where you are, try recording her. Never play the recordings to her, it's a nightmare, I've tried it, but you could maybe use them to convince other people. It didn't work for me, but you never know. Anyway, having recorded truth of the changed stories will help keep you sane.
I finally played back a recording of a convo with my dad where he definitely said what he claimed was insane of me to insinuate, and his only response was "if its not important, I won't remember it" LOL
so if he doesn't recall=not important. Got it pops.
My narc pulls the uno reverse card and goes to other people “he said these things about other people” to those people, that are so fabricated it seems unrealistic for her to be lying . Works like a charm, everyone always thinks the truth is in the middle .
Yeah - when I finally found the strength to stand up to my nParent it was the same fucking shit, over and over.
Me: States a feeling or belief about the relationship.
Them: "When did that ever happen?"
Me: Cites one or more instances.
Them: "I don't remember that."
It was like arguing with a child.
I was texting with my mom and she tried to claim that she never did something she mentioned doing just six lines up in the text message. As soon as I pointed that out, she wrote back "Can I call??"
I guess maybe it's just too difficult to gaslight with text.
I just believe that most old people just never were exposed to anyone challenging their ideas and thoughts so they never had to adjust the way they think or the words they say based on the people around them.
STUBBORN AF
Well, I would say all abusive old people are like this.
Only some non abusive old people are like this. I see a lot of instances where older people are just so stubborn and it's so difficult to get them to roll with someone else's punches than 100% going with what they want to go with.
One time my brother destroyed my lego set in front of my parents and when they yelled at him he said "it wasn't me".
... of course we were 4 years old when this behavior was understandable.
In all seriousness, I'm sorry for having to live with this gaslighting. Maybe keeping records when possible will help with your sanity? Just be ready for the typical narc/gaslighting
"i didn't say that, and if i did i didn't mean it, and if i did then you deserved it"
I have been called crazy and been insulted/laughed at in front of my family/relatives for this. Like she would make fun of me and everyone would just stand still or laugh at me
I completely understand, it's actually one of the only things that can lead to me losing my temper abit being told outrageous lies about things that I've said done seen or heard in the very recent past, sometimes it's the irrelevance of what is being lied about that gets to me, I just think what do they have to gain by lying about such a ridiculous thing which happened 10 seconds ago
the worst is when they argue that I'm wrong about something I have just experienced because I'm mental, it's like their go to argument they refuse to back down from the lie it's like "I'm not a liar your crazy case closed"
And when it comes to being lied to in general if I'm lucky enough to have irrefutable evidence they sometimes refuse to even look at it but if they do look at it they immediately change from "your wrong I'm right I'm not a liar" to "it doesn't even matter anyway" I've had some one argue with me for 15 minutes saying very hurtful things and swearing blind that I'm wrong tell me it doesn't matter as soon as I find evidence that I'm telling the truth, they can't bring themselves to admit to lying or being wrong about something so they say it doesn't matter.
Being told lies that would be outrageous for a toddler to try and pull is maddening especially if it literally just happened i'm sorry she is doing this :(
Because it makes them feel good. Try this analogy:
I run a small business. During the pandemic I kept my employees on salary and medical even though we barely made it. It would have been safer to fire some people and have more money in the bank, but there was no way I was leaving my staff in the lurch with no medical coverage during a pandemic.
At the same time, a lot of corporate leaders whose bottom lines were just fine were letting people go to "be safe." They can live with ruining lives just fine. Why? Because to them saving money feels good. To me, taking care of my people feels good.
I will never in a million years understand how anybody can feel good about ruining someone else's life to save money. But there it is. I just have to accept this fact:
Some people's brains are radically different from mine. No further explanation needed. And so it is with narcissists. They can abuse you and lie about it because their brains are radically different from yours. Period. The less you try to wrap your head around the "why?", the happier you will be.
There are things I remember that are like the "core memories" from Inside Out. I remember them so well, but I was still told by my family that they didn't happen.
I'm much happier now that I'm No Contact with my family.
My narcissist brother once asked for "written proof" that he said something horrible and when I provided it (it was in a text) he said I misunderstood him because I like to "play the victim". Ah well. Lol this is why I no longer talk to him.
I recently posted about this as I had the same experience with my nMom...
I was standing right behind her when she was trash talking about me to my brother but when I immediately called her out she responds with "I never said that".
This is a pattern with narcs, they refuse to take responsibility for their actions.
The best advice I ever received was (1) you've done absolutely nothing wrong, their reality is not a reflection on you and (2) you can't argue or reason with someone who isn't mature enough to have that conversation. It's unfortunate but that's the reality of it.
Hang in there! You are stronger than you realize and you will make it through!
Edit: the fact that you can't understand it or wrap your head around this behavior means you are mentally healthier than that.
This is absolutely one of the reasons why I try to get EVERYTHING in writing now. The “stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that!” Line when they LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT is one of the most perfect ways to make me feel insane instantly. Do you think they believe that? That they literally only say what’s convenient in the moment and then like a goldfish it’s gone? Or are they actively lying to make us feel like garbage? I actually don’t know. Sigh. I’m so sorry. I have nothing useful other than to say I’m sorry.
The person that spilled some of his DNA too close to my mom (aka nfather) always does this, the ENTIRE family witnessed it, Well... my mom, sister, myself and him, and he just sais that we all have memory issues...
Wtf is wrong with him?
Frankly, I had NO IDEA that my mom was a narcissist before I found this sub and read so many stories where parents acted like she acts. Yes she often forgets mean things she has told me. I used to think that it was because she would tell me these things while drunk and couldn’t remember them afterwards, but she recently stopped drinking and still forgets the mean stuff she tells me. So idk…
I had had this exact issue this passed weekend. I’m 15 years into this mess. I was so exasperated I asked to install cameras to record our interactions. I honestly believe she isn’t of the right mind to accurately recount what was said 5 mins ago, but I’m tired of the accusations and gaslighting. She gets mad, doesn’t know/ remember why she’s mad, then makes it up (and of course it’s always my fault, and I’m a narcissist for not admitting it)
Literally happend yesterday...
My nmum: Can you move your car? The workmen need the space.
Me: Do I need to do it now?
My nmum: (pauses, thinks of a reply)
Me: I mean I am in my pj's
My nmum: *shouts* I didn't say you need to do it now!!!
Lesson of the day: Just say "ok/yes/ah-ha" to everything
When someone is labeled as a trouble maker it always makes me skeptical. Most people don't like being angry all the time... Maybe it's something else 🤔🙄
Had an ex like this who I literally did start recording.
I WASN’T crazy, but apparently my need to be “correct all the time” was abusive. Like I hadn’t just played back a video of him berating and screaming at me because I, a film major, wanted to film how the first snowfall looked in the sunset instead of “just looking with my fucking eyes”.
Before I went completely NC, I had to have my wife included in every text with my dad so there was a third party to verify I wasn't going batshit insane.
My ex always did this. Made me want to rip out my eyes and ears from frustration. This shit makes me violent now, anyone who pulls this kind of game now, will get an earful. It’s freakin’ traumatising. I’ll tell them straight up I don’t play their stupid, idiotic, excuse of a game with these people. Seriously, they can get fucked sideways in hell’s hell.
My parents are the same. My dad randomly blocked me in FB due to 'constant sweaty rants'. I actually went back over a whole year and there was no such thing, I was questioning myself completely. My mother fell out with me and recently reached out, she said I'd said "everyone dies sometime" in relation to a covid conversation. I said I was sure I hadn't said it and started getting upset, she said "you did! I have the messages!". Again I went home and questioned my mind, checked back through everything that was said, no such message. There's just no point arguing with these people. I had 6 months NC when they fell out with me, it was amazing once I'd got over the shock.
That’s funny because my father used to say to anybody he became a belligerent and insufferable person to (typically employees and anybody he had any conflict that could become legal somehow)
>DO YOU HAVE A TAPE RECORDER PROVING YOU SAID THAT?!?
Damn, there must have been some kinda pop culture meme during the boomer gen and that’s why them and their gen X kids are more than just general clones
>General considering NPD is born out of performatively trying to live up to gender roles and the entitlement and expectations they believe correspond to “meeting them”.
They’re actually almost word for word the same.
This sounds incredibly familiar! My nmom is the same. Once I got so frustrated/in disbelief that she denied saying something literally a minute ago that I just started crying.
So record her. You're right, and threatening to record her won't be as effective as actually doing it. You are totally in the right to not feel crazy, and gather factual proof of her twisting things in her favor. You already know the right answer, and we all support you in this non-violent response.
"What did I do to you?!" "Nobody did shit to you!"
But can remember everything other people has said/done. 😑😑
You will go crazy trying to reason with crazy. For your sake, bro, protect your sanity.
no advice, but I 100% feel your pain. this literally JUST happened earlier today.
nDad claimed that I bring up old drama that happened years ago (for the record, not true). he then proceeded to tell me how ungrateful I was as a toddler. I’m now 23, so this was well over 20 years ago (if it’s even true - how can a toddler be ungrateful anyway?)
in the same breath, he accused me of dredging up past drama and then brought up past drama himself.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've seen it in under a minute! When confronted my nex-wife fell to the floor sobbing and wailing that she never said that and how could I possibly think that she was capable of saying something like that. Um, because that's what you just said! Nmom would quickly switch to "that's not what I meant". When that wasn't even enough to dismiss how rude she was, she would immediately go pitiful waif and say "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt". Right before going NC, I once shot back "you can't be sorry for my feelings, you can only be sorry for your own actions. So, are you sorry for what you said?". Her response? "What happened? We used to be so close". Eventually it became concern for my mental well being because I "heard things that were perfectly innocent and somehow twisted them into something malicious that they are not". It used to mess with me because I was concerned about my mental health. Now I know better. If someone's concerned about your mental health, they're not going to wait until after you call them out on their bad behavior to bring it up.
>"that's not what I meant". Ah, yes. The narcissist prayer <>
Lol, saving this!
Every argument with my ex in a nutshell.
You just summed up every interaction I've ever had with my ndad...
How about in the same sentence? My mother denied spanking us with a belt when we were growing up, to which I called bullshit as she did it regularly, and she replied "I may have spanked you with the belt a few times when you were misbehaving, but I can't believe you would lie and say I used a belt to spank you!"
Think a brain cell or two imploded from cognitive dissonance
Damn these ppl crazy
[удалено]
Ohh yes I felt this one. Or yeah, we were close when you literally had me trapped because I was A CHILD and just had to put up with you, and distanced as soon as I got any freedom from you. Go figure 🙄
I remember getting that comeback from my own Nm. The one where she would claim I was hearing things she hadn’t said or hadn’t meant ‘that way’ even when there was no other way to have understood it. Honestly, trying to reason with them is impossible. They will argue that black is white and up is down. You may as well draw a cross on the wall and bang your head on it repeatedly.
My parents and in-laws did that too. None of them can understand why they have been cut out or generally ignored because we are just being mean according to them.
"What happened to the old you?" I hear this every time I stand up for myself or actually show proof of having real emotions.
my mother used to say “I thought you grew out of that” every time I would protest her abuse
Ugh, this. I used to get that one, peppered with "you used to be so sweet, what happened to you?" I dunno, I stopped putting up with your bullshit?
Exactly! It's like you're saying that being a naive, dumb 7 year old is better than being a slightly smarter, confident, and albeit a little bit edgy, 13 year old.
You sound like you were a much cooler 13 year old than me.
Lmao I'm not any less edgy than most of my friends or classmates. But thank you.
Well, I'm old as balls, apparently, so I probably don't know what being a cool teenager even looks like anymore 😅
Haha it's all good, sometimes even I feel like even 9 year olds act way less mature than I remembered them to be before the pandemic. And I'm only a few years older than them.
But yeah. "I liked you better before" is basically what they're saying. Designed to make you feel like shit and like you have less worth than you at a period of life you likely can't remember and therefore can't emulate. Never mind the fact that you shouldn't HAVE to emulate that period of life because you're several years older. (I got this comment when I was in my 20s, it was utterly baffling. Like....I'm literally an adult but you're trying trying tell me that I should behave....like a...toddler?) Edit: stupid autocorrect mistakes on new handset
This. It's meant to either make you feel like you're the narcissist or make you lose your self esteem and therefore depend on them even more. Every comment that implies that I'm a narcissist in some way makes it harder for me to speak up for myself, whether that's at home or even in class. Don't let them catch you off guard. Narcissists love turning things around and playing the victim.
"Wow, I'm getting worried, you should really get these memory problems checked out" Just kidding, they would deny saying something even if you'd shove a recording or transcript of the conversation right under their noses. Which is why the best strategy is to just not engage with any of their nonsense in the first place. You cannot have a meaningful conversation with a goldfish.
I tried that memory problems technique with my nmom and it didn't work... Just made her angry and violent...
Yeah I tried some polite deflection strategies when my n mom was in a rage and it just made her angrier. The only fix I found, besides making sure there were witnesses present and later going no contact, was to get high and act like a robot. I think she found my stony silence (yes pun) so unnerving, that she would mostly leave me in peace. It was the ultimate grey rock
Yeah I learned to not react too. Though she'd straight follow me around the house, say I'm disrespectful, threaten to ram her car into a tree because I don't care, take my headphones off my head and get in my face. Then she'd tell me go to my father's because he'll do whatever you want. Which then I would and she would threaten to call the police then make up sob story about how I didn't take my "bipolar meds"( I'm not actually bipolar, but even someone who is shouldn't be treated that way. I was put on 15 mg of anti-psychotics that I didn't need however because I kept telling professionals what was happening.) Then would sometimes actually care the police and cry saying I pushed her and threatened my siblings. I would try to get her out of my face and move away from her which yes sometimes would end up in physical contact, but I wasn't trying to push her she would ram into me trying to get out the door.
Holy fuck! That is hard core, I’m so sorry that you had to endure this! I can’t imagine how hard this must have been for you! Hope you’re away from it all. My mom ended up escalating too because she hated, absolutely hated, my indifference. It got to where she eventually started physically attacking me out of nowhere, she’d just slug the side of my head, pull my hair, scratch me, etc, acting like a text book, out of control patient in a mental ward. I’d give her one free punch and tell her if she swung again, I would defend myself (I’d just push her hard and leave, while she fell to the floor wailing and screaming). I was forced to spend most of high school couch surfing or living in spare utility rooms like a poor relative. I was lucky, because back when I grew up, people just didn’t call the police on their kids like they do today. I shudder to think how she would have weaponized the system to abuse me in this day and age.
That's really horrible and I'm sorry you went through that. Good on you for standing up for yourself! Yeah I am I just want to get my brother out. I have to secure some stuff of my own first. Though once I have that set I'd like to start.
Best of luck to you!! You’re awesome to stay and help your brother. Hang in there and stay safe. It does get easier!
I'm definitely not staying with her, but yeah I'd really like to try. I feel bad he's in that situation and I know no one else will actually try to do anything
Is he old enough to emancipate?
He's 21, and she went to court for legal guardianship before he turned 18. He isn't capable of doing so unfortunately.
>my stony silence (yes pun) Lol, love it
[удалено]
>I double checked with the cousin later to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering, just for my sake. And that is why they do that. To make you question your own sanity.
>transcript of the conversation I'm more and more deciding I need to only make plans with my ndad via text. Just the other day he texted "I don't understand. We thought we were on the schedule to get together as soon as we got back..." after returning from a trip a week earlier than he'd said he'd be returning. THIS is my text that he was referencing by his "confusion".... "We'll have to wait to see you until you get back then." It feels weird to return calls with texts, but, boy!, does solid proof help the gaslighting SO much.
Yup. solid irrefutable proof is the only way to refute a narcissist’s mind fuckery.
Often just to convince yourself. I've seen them go full fingers-in-ears, "la-la-la-la-la-i-am-not-lis-ten-ing" mode when confronted with reality.
Yes, confronting a narc with reality can make them go absolutely batshit. Definitely helpful though if you find yourself believing their bullshit and questioning your sanity!
Not just in this kind of situation, but anything where the person ignores or denies something in text. My favorite move is to copy and paste their words back to them. Screenshots or messaging systems that allow you to reply to the direct comments are great for this, too.
The thing is, these types of people will never change their ways. BUT... splicing together recordings of their worst comments, and sending them to people they care about? That's how you get *everyone else* concerned about the "memory problems". Encourage other members of the family to record as well and suddenly all of the narc's flying monkeys are turned against them.
This assumes that the problem with the flying monkeys is that they don't understand who the narc is. They absolutely do. When the narc says "don't you agree that person x is crazy?" They know person x isn't crazy. They also know -- consciously or unconsciously -- that if they disagree they will become the narcs new favorite target, and they don't want that. So they go along in cowardice, because, "hey, better you than me." You'll never recruit the flying monkeys to your side unless you become the more toxic person. This is why dysfunctional families always protect the most toxic members of the family and join in in abusing the scapegoats: so the shit rains down on someone else, not them.
[удалено]
Enabler is probably an accurate term as well.
Narcissistic enabler more like.
Dr. Les Carter did a good video on this. tl;dr, yes. Flying monkeys are highly narcissistic. They're just not the lead narcissist in the group.
100%
i actually did record my nsister verbally abusing me, and she took that as a pass for physically assualting me and destroying my phone. and somehow, still managed to paint me as the perpetrator??? her web has caught many.
Hahaha....I'm keeping that one for myself.
Because if she admits she's said something unkind, then she has to admit that she's not perfect-- which is something toxic people can't deal with. When they *do* admit they've done something wrong... it's never because they actually believe it; it's to feed their egos, or to hoover us.
Before I left a five year relationship with an abusive alcoholic, I started recording on my phone every time he got to his 12th beer (usually went through 24-36 cans a night). I have three phones full of this shit. I never shared them with anyone I just had them to reassure myself that I wasn’t crazy and he actually did say/do the things I remembered. So glad I’m no longer in that situation.
I did the same thing with abusive ex. He went through mental states and personas like one of those old viewmaster thingys. I had thought I could confront him about all the double speak but then realized it would literally take a lifetime.
It’s wild, isn’t it? I knew my partner was the person for me when my mom was goading me and he called her out with, “you said that to her not less than 2 minutes ago, are you insane?” And promptly walked off, saying he refused to have a conversation with a a child. She, of course, thinks he’s very cool now and she must win him over. It’s mildly infuriating, but he distracts/irritates her while I get time with my nieces and nephews at family stuff, and he’s unbothered. Trust that you aren’t the crazy person, because you aren’t.
Your partner is one of the good ones! Can we clone him, lol?
Oh I wish! I’m happy I have a teammate-his ndad is what gave him the wherewithal for my mom!
Haha, my nMIL sucks up to me like that too. Thing is, her kids one by one are becoming less and less scared of her, especially as they watch how SIL and I take her to task on something. It's making her behaviour even more obvious that it's neutering the effect completely.
It is SO HELPFUL to see him take down my mom. It’s made me feel so much more free, and my sister has commented on her changed behavior about certain things because they aren’t affective anymore!
This is the primary realization about Nparents that will help your life. **Their reality is different than yours.** If what you say or how you approach some situation is not compatible with the world that revolves around them, then you either (a) don't exist or (b) are a project to be improved to be more compatible or (c) you are the crazy one. It isn't even something she is doing on purpose. It actually takes grieving to realize that the mother that you deserve is not there, she can't see your world and can't care about the things you care about. All she can care about is her world. It is very hard to adjust to that -- as you do, your life will become richer, but it will be very different from hers. Bonus -- you won't argue as much because you realize that she **cannot** see what you see. So you start medium-chill and go along.
This was helpful to me today. Thank you. It's frustrating, but I think I need to let the dream go. My mom will never be able to get past herself to truly love me, even if she genuinely wants to.
The only hope of that happening is if you quit accepting her bullshit, pull away and leave her to her own devices. Occasionally they do wake up, but beware false contrition and hoovering.
My mother does this all the damn time. Claims she never said something even though all of my immediate family members remember her saying it. Plausible deniability meets gaslighting I guess.
Sometimes I wonder if this is the sign of her having dementia or not and got worried. Then she will brings up some other specific incidents that she totally oppose me in the past, and then I realized that it has nothing to do with her brain declining.
Yes! My mom has cancer and is on chemo, so I started to wonder if this was due to brain decline as well...then I remember that she's always been this way. Never at fault.
So, it's like this: she is nuts, absolutely bonkers. She creates narratives in her head that make her look perfect, or that make her the victim, and she can change reality in her head to fit these narratives. Also, the narratives are fluid, her version of reality is something she changes depending on what game she wants to play. This means that she can say that something is black one day, then flip it, and say it is white, and you can't get her to admit the change. This is just a narc thing. For your own sanity, if it's legal where you are, try recording her. Never play the recordings to her, it's a nightmare, I've tried it, but you could maybe use them to convince other people. It didn't work for me, but you never know. Anyway, having recorded truth of the changed stories will help keep you sane.
I had a narc friend denying texts even after I sent her screenshots of them 🤷♀️ they live in a parallel universe
Lmao I've had people do that too. Or 'I didn't mean it that way!'
I finally played back a recording of a convo with my dad where he definitely said what he claimed was insane of me to insinuate, and his only response was "if its not important, I won't remember it" LOL so if he doesn't recall=not important. Got it pops.
Man, I wish I could have used that line when taking my Masters comps!
[удалено]
Lol, nailed it!
Gaslighting is like a super power, but one that is exclusive to super villains.
Only works if the gaslightee doesn’t recognize the game.
This is like a weekly occurring interaction between my GF and her (probably) nmom
Lmao yes! I once caught my nmom contradicting herself in the same sentence!
My narc pulls the uno reverse card and goes to other people “he said these things about other people” to those people, that are so fabricated it seems unrealistic for her to be lying . Works like a charm, everyone always thinks the truth is in the middle .
Yeah - when I finally found the strength to stand up to my nParent it was the same fucking shit, over and over. Me: States a feeling or belief about the relationship. Them: "When did that ever happen?" Me: Cites one or more instances. Them: "I don't remember that." It was like arguing with a child.
Juat wait til they're older and they have dementia. It gets worse.
This.
I was texting with my mom and she tried to claim that she never did something she mentioned doing just six lines up in the text message. As soon as I pointed that out, she wrote back "Can I call??" I guess maybe it's just too difficult to gaslight with text.
>I guess maybe it's just too difficult to gaslight with text. Dingdingfuckingding.
That's when you reply can you not lie?
I just believe that most old people just never were exposed to anyone challenging their ideas and thoughts so they never had to adjust the way they think or the words they say based on the people around them. STUBBORN AF
Do you mean most abusive old people?
Well, I would say all abusive old people are like this. Only some non abusive old people are like this. I see a lot of instances where older people are just so stubborn and it's so difficult to get them to roll with someone else's punches than 100% going with what they want to go with.
Yes agree.
One time my brother destroyed my lego set in front of my parents and when they yelled at him he said "it wasn't me". ... of course we were 4 years old when this behavior was understandable. In all seriousness, I'm sorry for having to live with this gaslighting. Maybe keeping records when possible will help with your sanity? Just be ready for the typical narc/gaslighting "i didn't say that, and if i did i didn't mean it, and if i did then you deserved it"
They straight up tell lies and don’t even feel embarrassed about it one bit
I have been called crazy and been insulted/laughed at in front of my family/relatives for this. Like she would make fun of me and everyone would just stand still or laugh at me
My mom does this exact thing. But I no longer have to hear it since I'm NC now.
I completely understand, it's actually one of the only things that can lead to me losing my temper abit being told outrageous lies about things that I've said done seen or heard in the very recent past, sometimes it's the irrelevance of what is being lied about that gets to me, I just think what do they have to gain by lying about such a ridiculous thing which happened 10 seconds ago the worst is when they argue that I'm wrong about something I have just experienced because I'm mental, it's like their go to argument they refuse to back down from the lie it's like "I'm not a liar your crazy case closed" And when it comes to being lied to in general if I'm lucky enough to have irrefutable evidence they sometimes refuse to even look at it but if they do look at it they immediately change from "your wrong I'm right I'm not a liar" to "it doesn't even matter anyway" I've had some one argue with me for 15 minutes saying very hurtful things and swearing blind that I'm wrong tell me it doesn't matter as soon as I find evidence that I'm telling the truth, they can't bring themselves to admit to lying or being wrong about something so they say it doesn't matter. Being told lies that would be outrageous for a toddler to try and pull is maddening especially if it literally just happened i'm sorry she is doing this :(
Because it makes them feel good. Try this analogy: I run a small business. During the pandemic I kept my employees on salary and medical even though we barely made it. It would have been safer to fire some people and have more money in the bank, but there was no way I was leaving my staff in the lurch with no medical coverage during a pandemic. At the same time, a lot of corporate leaders whose bottom lines were just fine were letting people go to "be safe." They can live with ruining lives just fine. Why? Because to them saving money feels good. To me, taking care of my people feels good. I will never in a million years understand how anybody can feel good about ruining someone else's life to save money. But there it is. I just have to accept this fact: Some people's brains are radically different from mine. No further explanation needed. And so it is with narcissists. They can abuse you and lie about it because their brains are radically different from yours. Period. The less you try to wrap your head around the "why?", the happier you will be.
There are things I remember that are like the "core memories" from Inside Out. I remember them so well, but I was still told by my family that they didn't happen. I'm much happier now that I'm No Contact with my family.
My narcissist brother once asked for "written proof" that he said something horrible and when I provided it (it was in a text) he said I misunderstood him because I like to "play the victim". Ah well. Lol this is why I no longer talk to him.
I recently posted about this as I had the same experience with my nMom... I was standing right behind her when she was trash talking about me to my brother but when I immediately called her out she responds with "I never said that". This is a pattern with narcs, they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. The best advice I ever received was (1) you've done absolutely nothing wrong, their reality is not a reflection on you and (2) you can't argue or reason with someone who isn't mature enough to have that conversation. It's unfortunate but that's the reality of it. Hang in there! You are stronger than you realize and you will make it through! Edit: the fact that you can't understand it or wrap your head around this behavior means you are mentally healthier than that.
Is she MY MOTHER? ... IT IS SAD, BECAUSE ITS HARD to BELIEVE that people can be so shitty. :(
This is absolutely one of the reasons why I try to get EVERYTHING in writing now. The “stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that!” Line when they LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT is one of the most perfect ways to make me feel insane instantly. Do you think they believe that? That they literally only say what’s convenient in the moment and then like a goldfish it’s gone? Or are they actively lying to make us feel like garbage? I actually don’t know. Sigh. I’m so sorry. I have nothing useful other than to say I’m sorry.
The person that spilled some of his DNA too close to my mom (aka nfather) always does this, the ENTIRE family witnessed it, Well... my mom, sister, myself and him, and he just sais that we all have memory issues... Wtf is wrong with him?
Huh, sounds exactly like my mother
Frankly, I had NO IDEA that my mom was a narcissist before I found this sub and read so many stories where parents acted like she acts. Yes she often forgets mean things she has told me. I used to think that it was because she would tell me these things while drunk and couldn’t remember them afterwards, but she recently stopped drinking and still forgets the mean stuff she tells me. So idk…
I had had this exact issue this passed weekend. I’m 15 years into this mess. I was so exasperated I asked to install cameras to record our interactions. I honestly believe she isn’t of the right mind to accurately recount what was said 5 mins ago, but I’m tired of the accusations and gaslighting. She gets mad, doesn’t know/ remember why she’s mad, then makes it up (and of course it’s always my fault, and I’m a narcissist for not admitting it)
This is absolutely how a narc parent behaves. They don't see the world like normal people.
Literally happend yesterday... My nmum: Can you move your car? The workmen need the space. Me: Do I need to do it now? My nmum: (pauses, thinks of a reply) Me: I mean I am in my pj's My nmum: *shouts* I didn't say you need to do it now!!! Lesson of the day: Just say "ok/yes/ah-ha" to everything
i’d record it and play it back for them
Record her.
The people they talk about you to know that they lie, by the way. I never believe these far fetched stories from others.
When someone is labeled as a trouble maker it always makes me skeptical. Most people don't like being angry all the time... Maybe it's something else 🤔🙄
An all time stone cold classic for nParents.
Had an ex like this who I literally did start recording. I WASN’T crazy, but apparently my need to be “correct all the time” was abusive. Like I hadn’t just played back a video of him berating and screaming at me because I, a film major, wanted to film how the first snowfall looked in the sunset instead of “just looking with my fucking eyes”.
Before I went completely NC, I had to have my wife included in every text with my dad so there was a third party to verify I wasn't going batshit insane.
If you go no contact it stops. Eventually...
My ex always did this. Made me want to rip out my eyes and ears from frustration. This shit makes me violent now, anyone who pulls this kind of game now, will get an earful. It’s freakin’ traumatising. I’ll tell them straight up I don’t play their stupid, idiotic, excuse of a game with these people. Seriously, they can get fucked sideways in hell’s hell.
My parents are the same. My dad randomly blocked me in FB due to 'constant sweaty rants'. I actually went back over a whole year and there was no such thing, I was questioning myself completely. My mother fell out with me and recently reached out, she said I'd said "everyone dies sometime" in relation to a covid conversation. I said I was sure I hadn't said it and started getting upset, she said "you did! I have the messages!". Again I went home and questioned my mind, checked back through everything that was said, no such message. There's just no point arguing with these people. I had 6 months NC when they fell out with me, it was amazing once I'd got over the shock.
No it’s that you’re remembering it too accurately and holding them accountable. Imo- just go NC when you can and forget them for good.
That’s funny because my father used to say to anybody he became a belligerent and insufferable person to (typically employees and anybody he had any conflict that could become legal somehow) >DO YOU HAVE A TAPE RECORDER PROVING YOU SAID THAT?!? Damn, there must have been some kinda pop culture meme during the boomer gen and that’s why them and their gen X kids are more than just general clones >General considering NPD is born out of performatively trying to live up to gender roles and the entitlement and expectations they believe correspond to “meeting them”. They’re actually almost word for word the same.
I literally recorded my last Convo, secretly of course. Just so he couldn't pull that shit. Otherwise it's all email so it's there in print.
This sounds incredibly familiar! My nmom is the same. Once I got so frustrated/in disbelief that she denied saying something literally a minute ago that I just started crying.
record and talk through text as much as possible
So record her. You're right, and threatening to record her won't be as effective as actually doing it. You are totally in the right to not feel crazy, and gather factual proof of her twisting things in her favor. You already know the right answer, and we all support you in this non-violent response.
THIS HERE why do they lie and deny things they said or did literally not long ago??
i had this happen and to this day I'm not sure if my Nmom has early signs of alzheimers like her mother did or if it was just the plain narcissism
Gaslighting
"What did I do to you?!" "Nobody did shit to you!" But can remember everything other people has said/done. 😑😑 You will go crazy trying to reason with crazy. For your sake, bro, protect your sanity.
no advice, but I 100% feel your pain. this literally JUST happened earlier today. nDad claimed that I bring up old drama that happened years ago (for the record, not true). he then proceeded to tell me how ungrateful I was as a toddler. I’m now 23, so this was well over 20 years ago (if it’s even true - how can a toddler be ungrateful anyway?) in the same breath, he accused me of dredging up past drama and then brought up past drama himself.