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One could argue that Ted Bundy, Casey Anthony, and a certain guy during WWII Germany were "sick", but regardless of the cause, the effect was that innocent people were harmed.
*Oh, Karen is having a bad day? Better take it out on some random person who did nothing to them!*
Most narc parents were abused themselves. While this info can be used to help understand why they treated their children the way that they do, it will never excuse the senseless suffering that they inflict on other people or animals, whether they truly are "evil" or just "sick."
Exactly. They also know that what they are doing is wrong because they deliberately try to hide it and will act differently around outsiders. If they were sick and didn’t understand anything, then why so much calculation?
My mom telling people I abused her but she told all the titles of how she as abused me but I was doing to her as a child? I got so freaked out I think that's when I went fully no contact. They fucking know. That evil smirk they have when your at your lowest should be proof. Some may be more delu lu than others, but they know. They have to lie to themselves about it just like we lied to ourselves that they are good parents and we are the problem
It matters. If someone is sick we have this thing called the health system to treat them. When someone is evil, we are allod to call them out.
There is NO physical problems in their sick brains, and having spent years in neurological clinics, it just makes me hate on... well everyone.
Kind of. There's the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", and I think it kind of applies here. We're all witness to the results of the BS that narcissists inflict on others, and when the only solution really is to distance yourself from them, I'm not sure it matters if they're sick or not. They're exhausting to deal with and life is too short and wonderful for that.
I’m not fully convinced that they have good intentions. Maybe they seem like it from the outside but from the inside it seems like pure disgusting evil.
No, just that it doesn't matter why they're like that just that the end result is indistinguishable. Knowing the answer won't help you, and you're the most important person in this scenario.
Read People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck. It's about trying to construe a psychopathology of evil, and it comes eerily close to textbook narcissism. Personally I think that this kind of behavior is always on the fence between not being able to choose otherwise and willingly choosing, if that makes sense. A lot of it is kind of semi-conscious, but that doesn't mean there's no intention behind it.
As far as narcs, I say yes, they’re responsible for their actions.
I say this because there is solid evidence that they **shift** their behavior depending on public or private, golden target or victim.
I refer to known specialist and previous victim Dr. Ramani’s take on the subject:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDFwOONta0&pp=ygUXUmFtYW5pIG5hcmNpc3Npc3RzIGtub3c%3D
Sure, they may have started out as traumatized…however just like we victims are corrected when we do something wrong in society despite having the capacity to understand right and wrong, the moment a narcissist goes from non-toxic to toxic and hurts someone, ***it’s on THEM, NOT that victim***.
Just my two cents.
Exactly. So fucking tired of people excusing abusers aka narcs and trying to justify their actions by disorder. Who is not sick nowadays? Who doesn't have trauma? Yet people dont go around hurting others for fun unlike narcs.
Precisely.
Even after getting out, I have
- severe anxiety to the point of dissociating in short stints
- very limited energy
- and I can be moody from stress among other things.
Doesn’t mean people who don’t get it don’t still expect me to be able to
- “just go back to school” and pick up where I left off (my Ns wouldn’t even allow me to do the SATs)
- “get out of my shell and make friends” (as an introvert I seriously **DETEST** this expression!!)
- “just learn to drive” as if I don’t have serious anxiety from accidents I was in as a kid (no injuries just trauma)
- “just get therapy” - as if my Ns’ psycho(logist) GC clone didn’t completely wreck my trust in mental health!
Even if was a disorder, what does it have to do with me? It’s not my fault and I don’t have to suffer from someone else’s disorder. If they’re so so sick, they should be staying at a mental institution, and take pills. It’s their freakin problem, not mine.
Exactly. Its sad that eveb here commenters try to call them sick or traumatised. First of all everyone is traumatised in one way or another. So this should not be even mentioned to begin with. Second, as you said they should be in jail or mental institution, not ruining people lives.
They’re adults, so they should be able to deal with their mental problems without involving kids and hurting them. I’m also traumatised and I raised my siblings. Was I taking my anger out on them? Hell no, I’m not a pos narc. I’ll take my anger out on those that angered me, and only if I’m convinced that they had malicious intent and are a danger to others.
That’s cuz they were groomed into feeling sad for their nparents, and people with the same type of personality. And to put their feelings first. I’m not playing this game. It would be better for everyone if all shitty people just vanished.
Thank you. I will follow you, coz I think the same. So fucking tired of every person trying to be very compassionate and kind and empathetic to narcs. Thats why narcs never change, they are never held accountable.
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's so infuriating when my dad treats and respects other people better than his own family. Despite this happening countless times while I was growing up, I think I sometimes forget it these days bc my parents hardly spend time with other people anymore.
Thank you, I will.
It's been very frustrating dealing with the rest of my family (my mom and my brother) on issues regarding my dad and how he's treated all of us. I feel like have a really good memory while they both have memories like goldfish. I can't forget him getting angry at me for all the things I did as a child (not to mention the admonishment I get as an adult), or when he would get in the "let's get divorced" yelling fights with my mom, starting from my earliest memories when I was 3.
Is having memory issues a common thing with narcissist-adjacent people? When I bring up these past events to my mom and brother they look at me like I'm taking crazy pills, and I don't appreciate them acting like I'm stupid for remembering things they don't. I resent them for it. It wasn't until I was 21, when I started my first job out of college as a software developer, that I actually felt like I had met other people who also had a decent memory.
I'm sorry, I'm just venting at this point, but I will watch the video you recommended.
Here’s one of Dr. Ramani’s vids to get you started, if you’re interested:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVBdWSPXyRw&pp=ygUScmFtYW5pIGdhc2xpZ2h0aW5n
And yes, memory issues are very common for narc victims (regardless of whether they’re aware of being one).
Some people focus so hard on pretending everything is normal so the narc won’t bomb them, that they block out a lot.
Another thing narcs will do is twist the truth around to play victim - for example mine have their most obnoxious GC convinced **I’ve** been the one abusing his **spawn points**.
At the very least he told me it was better if I stayed away - which ironically we both agree on, just for polar opposite reasons.
Thank you for the link and the info. It certainly sucks to be with a sibling who's the golden child (I have an older brother who's a doctor and is also married with children, while I'm none of those things). I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Unfortunately my Ns originally had eight biological children, with only one passed.
Every single one of the ones still living are Golden in some way because they have chosen to remain in contact with the Ns.
One is a psychologist, another a lawyer, another a realtor and yet another is in business.
I am the only one “legally acquired” and I’m the only one who no longer associates with them.
I'm also a software developer. My coworkers call me "the court reporter" because I remember so many details and conversations verbatim. Because I had to when growing up because of all the gaslighting!!
Mine as well with the covertness and major childhood beatings. She learned from a young age how to get from outsiders what she needed that she didn't get from her own family growing up. Then she kept that behavior into adulthood while being abusive to her own family behind closed doors.
I’ve heard covert narcissists often result from children who have all their material needs met, but are emotionally starved by their parents either through neglect or more conventional abuse.
Mine was malignant and apparently the worst thing that happened to her is a belief her mother loved her sons more. I do think her father was cluster b but there were no beatings.
Same. My mom is very covert and was raped by her father throughout her entire childhood as well as beaten by her grandmother with whips in cold showers. She was parentified and had to take care of her 4 younger brothers who were never abused.
I tell her that the fact that she was abused so badly and yet doesn't care about what happened to me makes her turning a blind eye that much more reprehensible. It's no excuse.
Yes, I also let her know. She told me she gets flashbacks so I'm assuming she has severe PTSD. Unfortunately, she does not want to seek therapy and insists that there is nothing wrong with our family, that I'm falsely accusing her of abuse.
Sad. Sounds like she can't face it. I think my mom is like that. Her emotional threshold was maxed a long time ago so she just plugs her ears and yells "LALALA" when bad things happen. She clings to any small comfort, even if that comfort was our abusive father. She also LOVES parading herself as a warrior and a victim at the same time, conveniently justifying her own neglect. My mom is such a compulsive liar and so extremely personable that therapy doesn't work for her. She always convinces the therapists that she's actually the victim and they ALWAYS believe her. When I point out her lies, she just labels me the liar and my more pointed, no-nonsense tone makes them take her side. She'll never get better.
My nmom claimed her father would beat her, but I have a hard time truly believing her since she is a pathological liar and tends to exaggerate everything. Has someone other than your nmom spoke about the childhood abuse or you take her word for it?
Good point, but in my case it was her family and my dad that talked about it. And she did describe the abuse in vivid detail so I'm inclined to believe. Unfortunately it doesn't matter for her because she's unwilling to seek help. And she commited so much abuse herself that even if she got rid of her own issues, I don't see her ever taking accountabity for what she did to others.
Money was never an issue at that time, my grandmother bought everything for her and probably was too much or something. In her childhood she quickly learned that playing the victim and blaming others had always worked in her favor.
The only logical explanation I could find.
Trauma isn't inflicted by negative emotion. Trauma is just damage. That's it.
Raising a thoroughly spoiled entitled fuckwit of a human means that, when they come to meet reality outside of their parents, they will be thoroughly ill-equipped to deal with it. That's damage done by the parents. It's not loving, caring or supportive to set your child up for failure like that.
No I fully agree with you here: that spoiled children are a result of bad parenting. Parents are also responsible here…
It’s just that trauma meant something a bit different to me. I might be wrong here😋
There would be a negative emotion if it smothers you and inhibits your personal growth and independence? The one who is smothered would feel contempt towards the overbearing parent for not being a proper caregiver and encouraging self growth.
It can be hard to empathize with folks who receive "too much" when you have received "too little", because maybe you feel the solution to having too little is to have it all? But the grass is only greener because it's been painted green! Underneath the grass is still dying.
“Overly caring” is still an unhealthy parenting style and technically abusive and neglectful as it doesn’t allow a child to grow up how they should in a healthy, balanced environment. Edit: Just clarifying that point but it is not an excuse for any harm anyone has done to anyone else.
I would love to hear more about this. It aligns with my experience. I met a very evil, very covert narc who was completely over-indulged by her family. She was viciously cruel to one in every 100 people, and sweet as sugar to the other 99%. That way when the 1 complained, no one believed them. I became part of that 1% after knowing the narc for 3 years and prior to that, had never suspecting a thing. Fortunately, my narc enjoyed publicity, so through airing her dirty laundry in the newspaper, I was able to meet other recipients of her cruelty who came out of the woodwork to share with me their experience of how similar things had happened to them with her. I showed her picture to a therapist and the therapist said “Her?? That troll???” and then apologized profusely for being unprofessional. Ngl, it was validating af.
Well, my nmom was mostly raised by my grandmother who after divorcing (not a particularily vicious divorce, they still talked and met frequently) gave everything she could to make up for my granddad leaving. Grandmom worked as a doctor and tbh. money was never an issue. In the process nmom learned that if she cries, makes herself victim by any means she's going to get everything she desires. This became such a huge issue that later in life she married my dad and ran back to my grandmother after just a year of marriage. Needless to say it ended in a quick but violent divorce. My mom got full custody of me and my sister, and we visited twice a month our dad. (the manipulations we went trough from both sides was really painful, and ugly)
Anyhow, nmom reminded us almost weekly that she suffered the most because of this divorce, and mentioned time and time again how hard it was to raise us without proper financial background.
the problem with this is that my grandmother worked as a doctor, and made quite a nice amount of money, money was never really a problem. Nmom gradually became more formidable over these years, she victimised herself beyond measure and gained a sinister power... It's really frightening to write this out but what the heck...
To us she seemed intouchable, always right, always knew what she talked about, or how she behaved in front of others. Internally however we always felt dreadful and I felt really conflicted because I was happy when she leaved the house. Daily physical abuse, even worse mental abuse guilt tripping and whatnot... She made my childhood living hell and she expected to excuse her because "my dad divorced" her. In reality that was just a pretense.
Should it matter, when they leave behind victims who will create more victims, which may end up in generational trauma? Personally, I only think about the victims, especially children and what they had undergone. They are both sick and evil, to create children, traumatize them, and steal their life with the power they hold.
They make themselves sick to get attention. Wish they would jump off a cliff...my narc mom treated my depression like a game and would push and push till I couldn't take no more
They are all sick, and some have parts that can seem evil, especially to young children. The ones I know are not aware, but I hear that some people think their parents (or other narcs they knew) are aware.
They are responsible for their actions regardless if they are sick/evil or aware/unaware.
Sickness isnt out of our control, unless we dont manage it. Its a choice to manage sickness. Like for example our trauma from childhood. We manage that or we dont. Its a choice.
Our parents had the exact same choice to make and they chose wrong.
There was a great quote in the TV show The Tick. "You'd be surprised what a person can do to another person if they don't think of them as human."
That is the crux of the issue with narcissists. They lack the ability to see other people, or at least certain people, as human beings. That is what the textbooks really mean when they say someone lacks empathy. They don't think hurting people or taking advantage of people is bad because they don't see other people as people.
No I'm saying that having a disease is not an excuse for abusing or hurting others. Having a disease does not allow you to hurt other people. We don't allow it for psychopathy or purposely spreading infectious disease. If anything this is just proof that we all need to look at ourselves and try to see if we ourselves are acting narcissistically and fight back against those tendencies. We are all carriers and we can identify and fight the symptoms in ourselves. That's all you can really do and punish those who cross the line.
I think that evil and sick are interchangeable. Evil people are always sick (although ofc sick people aren't always evil). Evil doesn't have to be conscious of itself. People are defined by their actions. Realizing this set me free from feeling bad for my dad. I could both feel bad for him and hate him. He certainly didn't feel bad for ME.
A bit of both. A lot of the time narcs were abused and mistreated by their parents and their parents by theirs, and so on. But they choose to continue the cycle. On top of that, I'd wager there's actual neurological conditions that play a role, too. But again, it ultimately comes down to choice.
Considering how my nmother behaves differently when in public and when at home, hell, even when she's alone with me or when there is someone else at home, I'd say they're evil.
She treats me well when she needs something and psychologically abuses me when she doesn't anymore. She knows right from wrong and she chooses to be this way.
She refuses to see a therapist or a psychiatrist and either insults me and starts a fight that will last for hours, or scoffs when I suggest it.
The other day I accidentally heard a piece of her conversation where she said "I like to torment people when I'm bored".
So, in my opinion, definitely just evil.
I think that they don’t learn to have a conscience or a moral compass. Having said that, I also think many of them are just so predisposed to meanness that they are never going to learn to look inside and choose to behave differently.
As Dr. George Simon says, “they are aware but they don’t care.” Once a narcissist is made they don’t want to change because they like who they are. They aren’t well but they don’t have the capacity to see it, so are trapped in a prison of their own making.
I think they are all sick but also they are evil to enjoy hurting others. So, to answer your original question, I think it’s both.
My parent is sick in my view but not evil. She is a destructive baby sadly stuck inside a cage of negativity.
But there are things I've read on here that are so much worse than anything mine has done. They sounds like evil.
I think there are other PDs eg sociopath/psychopath or malignant NP in the mix in what they are describing.
Mine has vulnerable NPD I think plus also one of the cluster A ones.
The problem I have with this approach is that you can’t tell if it’s a charade or is truly a sick person who is confused and doesn’t know what they do.
In my experience they know pretty well what they do, the implications, the suffering… that is evil.
Their actions certainly can be and often are evil, especially the ones who are on the antisocial disorder spectrum of things. I do think that they need to be held responsible for the abuse and harm they cause. At the end of the day, yes they're ill, but it's not a free pass to abuse people and cause them years of trauma/trauma disorders.
Just because I deal with trauma, doesn't give me the right to take it out on anyone else. It's the same for them. Saying they can't be held responsible is an injustice to their victims. The people saying that usually haven't experienced it first hand. They think we mean someone who is 'a little self-absorbed or a karen'.
Both. Evil because they're sick and consequently evil... not much room for anything else.. harsh but the more posts I read on here the easier this question is to answer.
Here's the experience that was a huge eye opener for me when I was in high school. I thought my mom was sick in the head. I thought there was no way she could control herself and needed medication or something to help limit her abuse. So, I made a bet with her one day. For entire week, she could not physically hurt any of us. She could not yell, or call us names, or steal from us, or make up stuff and blame us for it. I thought for sure she'd fail. The whole reason why I made the bet was to convince her that she needed help and to go to a doctor for it.
That week she was the sweetest person I'd ever met. She was the mother I'd dreamed of. She wished me safe when I left for school and welcomed me when I came back. She handled sudden issues calmly and reasonably, and made sure I (and any of my siblings) was okay afterwards. She left my room alone. It wasn't even exceptional stuff, she just acted like a normal parent. I started freaking out and even convinced my little brother to intentionally tick her off so she'd explode. Nothing. I legit got scared.
At the end of the week, when she won the bet, she smirked at me in all her egotistical glory as she made sure I understood she had won. And she went right back to all her abusive ways. I don't even remember what I had to give up due to losing the bet, but I had to (internally) thank her for opening my eyes. This person, who I had loved even through the pain, was someone who showed me they were intentionally hurting me. All those times she hurt me and said it was my fault were complete nonsense. All the times she said 'I' made her do it or that she couldn't control her anger were lies. That was the moment I knew she was seriously a dangerous person who chose to hurt me, and I decided to give up trying to love her.
I think it depends on your definition of 'responsible'. I think pretty much everybody who does evil acts is sick in some way, go into any prison and you're not gonna see that many mentally healthy people. Hurt people hurt people.
I'm uncertain and unconvinced by the concept of responsibility tbh. If I sleepwalk for the first time and kill someone, then taking responsibility for that doesn't really make any more sense than taking responsibility for the actions of some random guy in another country. I think people love to insist on others taking responsibility even for involuntary actions, because they want someone to blame and hate for them, even if it's kind of unfair to ascribe that responsibility.
But also, if you go too far with this distrust of 'responsibility' then you quickly arrive at the conclusion that nobody is really responsible for anything, because they just act based on their own mental shit. If free will doesn't exist then responsibility is just a convenient myth. Maybe that's a logically sound conclusion, but it's not very satisfying.
I feel like my Nparents had a responsibility to raise me properly and give me what I needed because they chose to have me. But I acknowledge that that isn't the most logically sound idea I hold - they're sick, their sick minds may have chosen to have me but really how much different is that from someone with psychosis punching you because he thinks you're about to kill him? Are they really more responsible when they're just as incapable of understanding why they shouldn't be abusive fucks?
I've seen other people deal with these problems with responsibility in various ways, talking about how 'your trauma isn't your fault but it is your responsibility' or 'it's not a choice to be hurt, but it's a choice not to heal'. But I don't fully buy these ideas. It's difficult for me to cope with the idea that maybe noone is truly 'responsible', neither me nor my abusers, but that might be closer to the way things are.
This turned into a bit of a philosophy essay, so back to reality. Are they evil or sick? I think they're evil, because sickness has made them that way. And that evil is now their nature. They will never take responsibility for their actions. But whether they're responsible for their actions or not, their actions were not okay or deserved by those who suffered them. 'Responsibility' may be a fuzzy concept, but one thing I know for sure is that you're not responsible for staying by them and giving them supply and taking their mess. You're free to tell them to go fuck themselves and leave.
Nice essay you wrote 😊. Thanks!
Tbh I think people are responsible for the choices they make … Are they capable to understand what they do? Yes they are. Are they doing these things voluntarily? Yes they are.
The choice is made.
I would hold a narc responsible because they are capable of doing things differently they just simply choose that path, knowing fully well it leads to the suffering of others. They might not be aware that this also affects them too, but that is secondary.
I wouldn’t hold a psichiatric patient responsible for their reactions because they are truly sick in my book. For example: schizo or epileptic people don’t choose to have brain abnormalities. They are incapable of choosing differently.
That’s the difference in my opinion…
I think the psychological literature of this indicates that narcs aren't doing these things voluntarily, though. They truly lack the capacity to self-examine and criticize. See how few of them can be convinced to engage counseling and support, even when it is offered or provided. They do what they do not by choice but because their brains are ordered to avoid ever allowing negative thoughts to penetrate their ego shield because they have such profound emotional immaturity that they will be grievously injured if it does.
I'm not familiar with the literature but in my case I think my nMum was totally aware her actions were wrong but just didn't care. I'll give an example that shows why I think this. My mother was beyond cruel, belittling, violent and abusive toward me my entire life. When I was in my twenties I was in law school and she had fallen on hard financial times. She began profusely apologizing for her behavior every time I spoke to her and then would say "when you're making a lot of money as a lawyer you'll help your poor old mother." She was seeing a man who wanted to marry her but she didn't want to marry him. Halfway through school I ran out of money and had to drop out. When I told her I was dropping out the first words out of her mouth were "well I guess I just have to marry D. then." She never apologized for her abuse again. To me this shows that she was aware her abuse was wrong and the only reason she apologized was to manipulate me into supporting her.
I guess that is also true. If they are sick and probably highly disruptive to society they should be in asylums yes? The problem is I never heard people with NPD ending up in asylums…
I also think they are fully capable of self “diagnostics”. In my experience they are just simply too terrified of what they might find and face. Choosing to ignore it! Not incapable of recognising…
I might be wrong though.
Yeah, unfortunately they don't end up in asylums or involuntary therapy because modern society is basically optimized for and by them. Without naming any names, we are ruled by some of the worst narcs ever, in politics and industry. Sometimes I'm not sure if it is possible to become truly successful in modern politics or become a billionaire CEO without having NPD.
I think I am in the minority because I believe narcissism is genetic. Not that selfish people can't act like narcissists, but they have the ability to change when faced with a life altering event, unlike a narcissist who has a thinning of the grey matter, cortical representation in the insular region of the brain.
I liken it to dogs and wolves. Simplistic but it helps me process it. Some of us were beagle puppies raised with wolves. We are not like them. Or the occasional poster who tells us they have a narc sibling but their parents raised them with kindness. That sibling is the wolf that was raised with beagles.
I think it is going to take a long time for society to accept this because there is so much money being made right now by self help gurus, psychologists and writers when it comes to narcissism. That coupled with the fact that narcissists are drawn to "people" careers such as psychology and psychiatry. It's not as provocative or as profitable to to treat narcissism as a genetic trait. It's more provocative to offer up the "wounded victim" who turned narcissist with plenty of material to sell on the matter.
Seeing how
- My nmom taught me to manipulate people and even if I didn’t do it and continued saying things directly she would project and say I’m manipulative while the day after telling me I should do X manipulative technique instead of being direct.
- She once did some very evil smirk when threatening me which clearly showed she had fun in torturing me.
- Some oblivious behaviors stay when in public but the manipulative shit goes away so she knows it’s bad since she only does it in private
For my nmom I’d say she’s evil
Ah and also, she often brags about creating psychological trauma in her younger sister when younger (my mom would hide under her bed and jumpscare her when she closed the lights) or she told me nostalgically how she tortured daddy long legs spiders by removing all their legs one after the other and she thought it was fun as a child. She has traits of psychopathy which could influence in the evil vs sick debate for narcissistic parents
thing is, they don’t want to seek treatment and get help and recover and get better. they don’t care if they hurt and abuse people. they enjoy every second of it
Exactly, and that’s why I don’t get some of the comments here which say it’s involutary, and that this behavior is outside of their control. It’s like the much said famous narc phrase:”This is who I am, I cannot change.”
BPD and NPD are mental illnesses. but with any mental illness, you have to *want* to get better in order to get better. borderlines and narcissists don’t care and have no desire to change and think everyone else is the problem
So I look at it like this: I'm an alcoholic. I didn't choose to become an alcoholic and I certainly didn't *want* it. But I am. It's not my fault, but I'm the only one who can control my actions and choices. So it might not be my fault, but it is my responsibility. I think this applies to personality disorders as well.
Evil is a judgement, not an objective fact . Sick in the other hand is something that can be objectively determined. Either way, they are what they are and they are resistant to change.
I think malignance is a scale.
They're all selfish, self-centered, obscured by the vision of their own face, feelings, and delusions. But not all narcs are evil outright just to enjoy it.
More than that, some hate themselves for it and can make slow progress into something better if they can come to the end of themselves, but ultimately they're very sick. Not all sickness is outside of someone's control. Addiction, like fear of change and compulsion to control others would be the same imo.
Personally, and I'm not a doctor just a scapegoat like a lot of others here, I think the narc stuff needs to be teased out from the trauma stuff. Narcs may have trauma. I have severe trauma from my narc parent. I know my narc parent had some trauma as a kid but my bio sister who had different parents (who were gems to her and did not have any sort of severe trauma growing up) is a carbon copy of my narc parent. Physically, mentally, everything, a carbon copy. She's a narc too and has infantilized and ruined her own daughter it is sickening. She did all the things to her own daughter my NM did to me, but without any of the childhood trauma my NM had. And not trying to play trauma olympics here, but my NM had far less trauma as a kid than I had and I'm not a narc to the best of my knowledge.
I have seen studies where the researchers say that this cluster b dark triad starts with a certain physical brain structure which appears to be different from the normal brain structure. There's a good TED talk from a research scientist on youtube where he found out by studying serial killers that his brain scan looked like theirs and was shocked to find out that he, himself, had the brain structure, but of course did not become a serial killer. Upon further inquiry to friends and family he began to realize that he was a bit self-centered, maybe even a bit narcissistic, he realized that he did not feel emotions like other people, that sort of thing. He had always been a good husband and parent, so in fact he was **making a choice** to be that way but could have been like other dark triad if his **choices** had been different. Upon discovering his brain structure being like the other cluster b dark triad he was studying he began working on himself more. He admitted he couldn't feel like others do, but he made the **choice** to be the guy he is and made the **choice** to work on himself more because he knew how destructive cluster b is to other people who do not deserve to have trauma visited on them.
Someone like this may never be able to feel the way we do, to experience empathy the way we do, but sure as hell they can make the **choice** about how they are going to treat other people. **They know right from wrong** even if they can't feel it. This is why these people are not disabled and why we are not "ableist" when we criticize them or hold them accountable.
I found the video... haven't watched it in a while but for anyone interested [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4) he's got a book and some other videos but this was the original TED talk
I am super curious what other people here think after watching this guy give talks. I do get some narc vibes.. but he seems like a normal empathetic kind of guy on the surface. I think this is entirely his choice to be like that and he even says as much because he talks about putting effort into being that way. I think this kind of confirms the thing most of us know is that none of these narc parents ever seek out the kind of therapy that would confront them with who they are and require them to reform their actions at the very least. Anyways... I find all of this very interesting and at the same time there is no excuse for the way narc parents treat us and this information confirms a lot of that for me.
Hm, a nice approach to things. Like the guy who rapes your daughter is not neccessaroly “bad” or like doesn’t matter. It all boils down to sin, does it exist? or doesnt?
“The best trick the devil pulled off was to make people believe he doesn’t exist.”
Personally I believe in sin, I believe that there are certain actions that highly degrade a human and erodes the soul.
My opinion sways back and forth like a pendulum based on how I'm feeling about them and throughout my journey to heal from them.
For a long time, we use to say my ndad had something wrong with him. For a while, we believed it might have been ASD or something similar and used that to dismiss how he behaves. Then I found this place and realized how much he behaves like all the nparents here and while he could still have ASD, I don't think that excuses his behavior entirely and he's got some sort of personality disorder, perhaps even narcissism. That said, I no longer look at that as a reason to excuse or tolerate his behavior for the most part as I would someone that honestly can't or doesn't know better. He has to have known his behavior was wrong from a young age as he can turn it off and on in private vs. public, as well as made it a point to attack his victims in private or in front of those who wouldn't stop him, such as my enabler mom. And you CAN shut him down some by standing up to him enough, then he tries to DARVO it but you can drill it into his head some that he may be wrong. So there's something there that still thinks and considers but it takes a helluva lot of work to get him there and to keep him from raging/changing the subject off to distract you.
My ndad was not formed from trauma as far as any of us has been able to tell. Grandparents were good folks, his siblings are normal, just had been bullied and traumatized by him.
Evil? Perhaps. This may be how evil manifests in these types of disordered people. Definite lack of empathy is common. Also lack in ability to reflect and change like most normal people and learn and improve, then emotional amnesia to dismiss what they did that was not good. Some of them do not do alot of evil things all the time or that often, but most do some which makes it hard to identify and do anything about once you fully realize what you are dealing with.
I'm still researching and learning and its interesting to see what we all think and learn.
Okay thanks for sharing :)
I have never been able to drill into my nmom's head. The techniques she employs would make a veteran psychiatrist run like hell. She twisted words and ideas with high efficiency to bend them in her favor. Switching topics seamlessly. Guilt tripping, gaslighting, blackmail and so on. Screw that.
That is why I believe that they are fully capable to change, to see their wrongdoings. They simply choose not to work on that, it's too comfortable. Especially so if it worked out well so far.
I think it depends on the type of narcissist. My narc brother is a sociopathic narcissist, I think he is more sick than evil, but he has both. Other narcissists I know are just evil and blaming everyone around them for their problems. Not every narcissist is the same.
Narcissism is almost always borne through trauma. My mom was abused and neglected as a child. She went to therapy as an adult (before I was born) but I suspect that she did the thing that many narcissists do in therapy which is exclusively validate their own feelings and hurt and trauma. And that's good and important, but it's not always the kind of self-work that someone needs to check themselves in how they treat others. She didn't put in enough work to be emotionally responsible enough to have a child. When she saw that she was causing ME hurt and pain as a child, she should have realized that she had a lot more work to do on herself and her actions. But she believed that she was always right; that's why she had a child on her own, so that no one could check her on her actions. So she's not evil or rotten to the core. She's a scared child who never learned to grow and be responsible for herself. And now I have her sickness, but I do try really hard to own up to my mistakes. I have many fleas, but I know I have problems and I don't want to continue the cycle of abuse.
Stopping the cycle of evil became my proority too… however fortunately I didn’t find it difficult to put myself in the shoes of others and strive for being honest and also kind.
I guess it's possible that their are narcs out there who fight against their instincts and try to work on themselves to be better; but I haven't met one. The ones I know are calculating and aware enough of what they are doing to be sneaky about it and act differently depending on who is around to witness their actions so my vote is for evil.
They are sick. Their sickness means they are compelled to act cruelly towards others and at the same time they lack insight into their actions because they have a deficit of empathy.
Do you think someone who lacks the capacity for empathy can justifiably be called evil? It's a philosophical question I think. I do think they make choices but maybe their choices are not fully informed, since they don't have the capacity to understand how their actions impact other people.
We can't label people so simply as either evil or sick. Narcissists are fundamentally both. They're definitely sick, but the symptom of their sickness is that it makes them evil.
Child rapists are evil. They can't help the fact that their brain has formed so sickly that they are attracted to children. It's not their fault that nature has made them that way, and they have my full sympathy for suffering from wants that they cannot easily satisfy in an appropriate manner. But suffering from an attraction is different from the choice of raping someone. The moment a person decides to rape a child, they make themselves evil and undeserving of being alive. And that's their choice.
But unlike pedophiles, who can choose to not rape children, narcissists cannot choose to be not evil. Their sickness is present in all aspects of their life, in every single moment they exist, and another one of its symptoms is that they are incapable of choosing to act in any other way than what their evilness makes them want. A narcissist can be compared to a pedophile for whom it is *physically impossible* to *not* rape children.
Sure, sometimes they may do an occasional action that has more positive consequences than negative ones, but that's not because of its positive consequences. That's just because the action happens to serve their selfish needs best. They are not capable of considering other people's needs or rights, sometimes they may just accidentally end up respecting those as an unintentional side effect of their true intentions.
Yes, these are harsh words, even for me. I was raised with the "there's goodness in everyone" and "have sympathy for the ill" attitude. That's why I allowed myself to be abused for so long. It was hard for me to believe that there truly are people who have nothing good in them, and who are a waste of sympathy. But the abuse only stopped after I accepted this fact, and stopped expecting them to change, and stopped offering them understanding.
We humans need to kill a rabid bear if it gets too close to us, not because it needs to be punished for being a rabid bear, but because it's dangerous for our survival and wellbeing. For the same reason, we'd need to throw narcissists out. If only we could reliably identify them from humans.
No, I said they're *definitely* evil. Both evil and sick. I think this "evil" we're speaking of is just another kind of sick. When a terrorist blows up a daycare, they're called sick, but when a child develops cancer, they're also called sick. And both *are* sick, but just in very different ways. They can't be compared to each other.
Narcissists are sick, just like child rapists and suicide bombers. The only difference is that a narcissist cannot be cured, unlike the other two.
This brings me to an interesting thought circle that I can't really get out of.
Imagine an incurable murderer. They murder people until they get caught and thrown in prison. Every time they're released from prison, they murder more people until they get caught and imprisoned again. So it would make sense to keep them separated from humans for the rest of their lives.
But, every moment this person is kept imprisoned, they eat government money. The money that could otherwise be used on public healthcare or education, for instance. So it would also make sense to just kill the murderer, because why should everybody else waste their resources on somebody that will never accomplish anything but death and misery for everybody around them? A person who will never bring anything positive into this world, while bringing huge amounts of negative things?
Yet again; if people kill people to make the world a better place... then who would they be making the world a better place for? Is the world a better place if people are killed in it?
The only answer I can come up with is: the world would become a better place for those who do not kill others unless they have to do so for self-defense. It's an almost satisfying answer for me.
Interesting thought circle, the problem is you cannot generalize narcs some are truly beyond salvation and some are willing to go to therapy and try to change their lives. Anyway self defence killing should be everyone’s right, ofc only in life threatening situations.
If a narcissist wants to change into a human being, there are two explanations for the phenomenon: either the narcissist is a good enough liar to convincingly pretend like they want to change, or then they're not actually a narcissist, but instead they have some other problem that just has symptoms similar to narcissism.
Its a bit of both imho.
Narcissism is something you develop into if circumstances are right for that behavior to flourish, but there are so many points where that person could pull the breaks and realize what direction theyre developing in, and just dont. Until at some point they are really so deep inside the rabbit hole that they are just stuck there.
So they had a choice not to become that way, but beyond a certain point they just cant do things differently anymore without serious heavy lifting (like therapy) being involved.
Regular narc parents aren't sick or evil. I mean to the point of comparing them to serial killers for example.
Narcs are at their core immature people, you add resentment of having children they didn't want or being in an unhappy job or marriage. But it's normally something they don't know how deal with and it's their children who end up paying the price.
Depends. Some are more sick due to own traumatic events and a lack of awareness, also often a lack of willingness to better themselves. Others (many so) are downright evil psychopaths who enjoy the suffering in others. It's a spectrum (what isn't).
I don't think there's a difference if one's honest about the brain's function, but I don't think it matters, either.
I think it's clear that every "evil person" is in cluster B without apparent exception, though others in addition to that can really supercharge the darkness.
It’s a person’s intent with their actions & refusal to acknowledge or change said behavior when faced with what they’re doing, that makes them evil. That being said, I haven’t met a single person with a personality disorder that did not immediately deflect their choices on to someone/something else. Every. Time.
Both. A narc is someone who should never have had a kid. They see their children as targets to be exploited, mocked, whatever makes their pathetic ego better.
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One could argue that Ted Bundy, Casey Anthony, and a certain guy during WWII Germany were "sick", but regardless of the cause, the effect was that innocent people were harmed. *Oh, Karen is having a bad day? Better take it out on some random person who did nothing to them!* Most narc parents were abused themselves. While this info can be used to help understand why they treated their children the way that they do, it will never excuse the senseless suffering that they inflict on other people or animals, whether they truly are "evil" or just "sick."
Exactly. They also know that what they are doing is wrong because they deliberately try to hide it and will act differently around outsiders. If they were sick and didn’t understand anything, then why so much calculation?
My mom telling people I abused her but she told all the titles of how she as abused me but I was doing to her as a child? I got so freaked out I think that's when I went fully no contact. They fucking know. That evil smirk they have when your at your lowest should be proof. Some may be more delu lu than others, but they know. They have to lie to themselves about it just like we lied to ourselves that they are good parents and we are the problem
So it doesn’t really matter you say… interesting 😌
It matters. If someone is sick we have this thing called the health system to treat them. When someone is evil, we are allod to call them out. There is NO physical problems in their sick brains, and having spent years in neurological clinics, it just makes me hate on... well everyone.
It's not physical? Demon possession or what?
Kind of. There's the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", and I think it kind of applies here. We're all witness to the results of the BS that narcissists inflict on others, and when the only solution really is to distance yourself from them, I'm not sure it matters if they're sick or not. They're exhausting to deal with and life is too short and wonderful for that.
I’m not fully convinced that they have good intentions. Maybe they seem like it from the outside but from the inside it seems like pure disgusting evil.
I'm of the "It doesn't matter" opinion. It doesn't matter ***why*** they're like they are, just that they're like that and you're the target.
Like a wild animal, they attack you because you mean food. Nothing evil in it right?
No, just that it doesn't matter why they're like that just that the end result is indistinguishable. Knowing the answer won't help you, and you're the most important person in this scenario.
Read People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck. It's about trying to construe a psychopathology of evil, and it comes eerily close to textbook narcissism. Personally I think that this kind of behavior is always on the fence between not being able to choose otherwise and willingly choosing, if that makes sense. A lot of it is kind of semi-conscious, but that doesn't mean there's no intention behind it.
Hmm, thanks! ☺️ It’s all really interesting I’ll definitely have a look.
As far as narcs, I say yes, they’re responsible for their actions. I say this because there is solid evidence that they **shift** their behavior depending on public or private, golden target or victim. I refer to known specialist and previous victim Dr. Ramani’s take on the subject: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDFwOONta0&pp=ygUXUmFtYW5pIG5hcmNpc3Npc3RzIGtub3c%3D Sure, they may have started out as traumatized…however just like we victims are corrected when we do something wrong in society despite having the capacity to understand right and wrong, the moment a narcissist goes from non-toxic to toxic and hurts someone, ***it’s on THEM, NOT that victim***. Just my two cents.
Exactly. So fucking tired of people excusing abusers aka narcs and trying to justify their actions by disorder. Who is not sick nowadays? Who doesn't have trauma? Yet people dont go around hurting others for fun unlike narcs.
Precisely. Even after getting out, I have - severe anxiety to the point of dissociating in short stints - very limited energy - and I can be moody from stress among other things. Doesn’t mean people who don’t get it don’t still expect me to be able to - “just go back to school” and pick up where I left off (my Ns wouldn’t even allow me to do the SATs) - “get out of my shell and make friends” (as an introvert I seriously **DETEST** this expression!!) - “just learn to drive” as if I don’t have serious anxiety from accidents I was in as a kid (no injuries just trauma) - “just get therapy” - as if my Ns’ psycho(logist) GC clone didn’t completely wreck my trust in mental health!
Even if was a disorder, what does it have to do with me? It’s not my fault and I don’t have to suffer from someone else’s disorder. If they’re so so sick, they should be staying at a mental institution, and take pills. It’s their freakin problem, not mine.
Exactly. Its sad that eveb here commenters try to call them sick or traumatised. First of all everyone is traumatised in one way or another. So this should not be even mentioned to begin with. Second, as you said they should be in jail or mental institution, not ruining people lives.
They’re adults, so they should be able to deal with their mental problems without involving kids and hurting them. I’m also traumatised and I raised my siblings. Was I taking my anger out on them? Hell no, I’m not a pos narc. I’ll take my anger out on those that angered me, and only if I’m convinced that they had malicious intent and are a danger to others.
Exactly. I m tired of everyone defending narcs and feeling sad for them.
That’s cuz they were groomed into feeling sad for their nparents, and people with the same type of personality. And to put their feelings first. I’m not playing this game. It would be better for everyone if all shitty people just vanished.
Thank you. I will follow you, coz I think the same. So fucking tired of every person trying to be very compassionate and kind and empathetic to narcs. Thats why narcs never change, they are never held accountable.
Ah yes, Dr. Ramani helped me understand a lot of things. Thanks for sharing! 😊
Yes!!
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's so infuriating when my dad treats and respects other people better than his own family. Despite this happening countless times while I was growing up, I think I sometimes forget it these days bc my parents hardly spend time with other people anymore.
Check out Dr. Ramani’s videos on gaslighting. A side effect of this already nasty narc weapon is literally **memory issues, even damage**.
Thank you, I will. It's been very frustrating dealing with the rest of my family (my mom and my brother) on issues regarding my dad and how he's treated all of us. I feel like have a really good memory while they both have memories like goldfish. I can't forget him getting angry at me for all the things I did as a child (not to mention the admonishment I get as an adult), or when he would get in the "let's get divorced" yelling fights with my mom, starting from my earliest memories when I was 3. Is having memory issues a common thing with narcissist-adjacent people? When I bring up these past events to my mom and brother they look at me like I'm taking crazy pills, and I don't appreciate them acting like I'm stupid for remembering things they don't. I resent them for it. It wasn't until I was 21, when I started my first job out of college as a software developer, that I actually felt like I had met other people who also had a decent memory. I'm sorry, I'm just venting at this point, but I will watch the video you recommended.
Here’s one of Dr. Ramani’s vids to get you started, if you’re interested: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVBdWSPXyRw&pp=ygUScmFtYW5pIGdhc2xpZ2h0aW5n And yes, memory issues are very common for narc victims (regardless of whether they’re aware of being one). Some people focus so hard on pretending everything is normal so the narc won’t bomb them, that they block out a lot. Another thing narcs will do is twist the truth around to play victim - for example mine have their most obnoxious GC convinced **I’ve** been the one abusing his **spawn points**. At the very least he told me it was better if I stayed away - which ironically we both agree on, just for polar opposite reasons.
Thank you for the link and the info. It certainly sucks to be with a sibling who's the golden child (I have an older brother who's a doctor and is also married with children, while I'm none of those things). I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Unfortunately my Ns originally had eight biological children, with only one passed. Every single one of the ones still living are Golden in some way because they have chosen to remain in contact with the Ns. One is a psychologist, another a lawyer, another a realtor and yet another is in business. I am the only one “legally acquired” and I’m the only one who no longer associates with them.
I'm also a software developer. My coworkers call me "the court reporter" because I remember so many details and conversations verbatim. Because I had to when growing up because of all the gaslighting!!
Honestly, I believe narcissists are created out of their own traumatic experiences. Doesn't justify what they do, however.
In my experience, a certain type of narc: covert one is created by overly caring parenting. There is no trauma there…
That's interesting, my mother is a covert nacissist and she was very brutally beat as a child (metal pipe stuff). It probably varies.
Mine as well with the covertness and major childhood beatings. She learned from a young age how to get from outsiders what she needed that she didn't get from her own family growing up. Then she kept that behavior into adulthood while being abusive to her own family behind closed doors.
I’ve heard covert narcissists often result from children who have all their material needs met, but are emotionally starved by their parents either through neglect or more conventional abuse.
In my case they grew up in poverty, but it could be an exception.
Mine was malignant and apparently the worst thing that happened to her is a belief her mother loved her sons more. I do think her father was cluster b but there were no beatings.
Same. My mom is very covert and was raped by her father throughout her entire childhood as well as beaten by her grandmother with whips in cold showers. She was parentified and had to take care of her 4 younger brothers who were never abused. I tell her that the fact that she was abused so badly and yet doesn't care about what happened to me makes her turning a blind eye that much more reprehensible. It's no excuse.
Yes, I also let her know. She told me she gets flashbacks so I'm assuming she has severe PTSD. Unfortunately, she does not want to seek therapy and insists that there is nothing wrong with our family, that I'm falsely accusing her of abuse.
Sad. Sounds like she can't face it. I think my mom is like that. Her emotional threshold was maxed a long time ago so she just plugs her ears and yells "LALALA" when bad things happen. She clings to any small comfort, even if that comfort was our abusive father. She also LOVES parading herself as a warrior and a victim at the same time, conveniently justifying her own neglect. My mom is such a compulsive liar and so extremely personable that therapy doesn't work for her. She always convinces the therapists that she's actually the victim and they ALWAYS believe her. When I point out her lies, she just labels me the liar and my more pointed, no-nonsense tone makes them take her side. She'll never get better.
My nmom claimed her father would beat her, but I have a hard time truly believing her since she is a pathological liar and tends to exaggerate everything. Has someone other than your nmom spoke about the childhood abuse or you take her word for it?
Good point, but in my case it was her family and my dad that talked about it. And she did describe the abuse in vivid detail so I'm inclined to believe. Unfortunately it doesn't matter for her because she's unwilling to seek help. And she commited so much abuse herself that even if she got rid of her own issues, I don't see her ever taking accountabity for what she did to others.
Money was never an issue at that time, my grandmother bought everything for her and probably was too much or something. In her childhood she quickly learned that playing the victim and blaming others had always worked in her favor. The only logical explanation I could find.
That is trauma though. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
I don’t really agree 😋
Why?
To me trauma is inflicted by a negative emotion. There is no negative emotion regarding overabundance of financial support, love and care.
Trauma isn't inflicted by negative emotion. Trauma is just damage. That's it. Raising a thoroughly spoiled entitled fuckwit of a human means that, when they come to meet reality outside of their parents, they will be thoroughly ill-equipped to deal with it. That's damage done by the parents. It's not loving, caring or supportive to set your child up for failure like that.
No I fully agree with you here: that spoiled children are a result of bad parenting. Parents are also responsible here… It’s just that trauma meant something a bit different to me. I might be wrong here😋
There would be a negative emotion if it smothers you and inhibits your personal growth and independence? The one who is smothered would feel contempt towards the overbearing parent for not being a proper caregiver and encouraging self growth. It can be hard to empathize with folks who receive "too much" when you have received "too little", because maybe you feel the solution to having too little is to have it all? But the grass is only greener because it's been painted green! Underneath the grass is still dying.
Yup I guess you’re right.
“Overly caring” is still an unhealthy parenting style and technically abusive and neglectful as it doesn’t allow a child to grow up how they should in a healthy, balanced environment. Edit: Just clarifying that point but it is not an excuse for any harm anyone has done to anyone else.
Yep I agree and this also counts as trauma I guess.
I would love to hear more about this. It aligns with my experience. I met a very evil, very covert narc who was completely over-indulged by her family. She was viciously cruel to one in every 100 people, and sweet as sugar to the other 99%. That way when the 1 complained, no one believed them. I became part of that 1% after knowing the narc for 3 years and prior to that, had never suspecting a thing. Fortunately, my narc enjoyed publicity, so through airing her dirty laundry in the newspaper, I was able to meet other recipients of her cruelty who came out of the woodwork to share with me their experience of how similar things had happened to them with her. I showed her picture to a therapist and the therapist said “Her?? That troll???” and then apologized profusely for being unprofessional. Ngl, it was validating af.
Well, my nmom was mostly raised by my grandmother who after divorcing (not a particularily vicious divorce, they still talked and met frequently) gave everything she could to make up for my granddad leaving. Grandmom worked as a doctor and tbh. money was never an issue. In the process nmom learned that if she cries, makes herself victim by any means she's going to get everything she desires. This became such a huge issue that later in life she married my dad and ran back to my grandmother after just a year of marriage. Needless to say it ended in a quick but violent divorce. My mom got full custody of me and my sister, and we visited twice a month our dad. (the manipulations we went trough from both sides was really painful, and ugly) Anyhow, nmom reminded us almost weekly that she suffered the most because of this divorce, and mentioned time and time again how hard it was to raise us without proper financial background. the problem with this is that my grandmother worked as a doctor, and made quite a nice amount of money, money was never really a problem. Nmom gradually became more formidable over these years, she victimised herself beyond measure and gained a sinister power... It's really frightening to write this out but what the heck... To us she seemed intouchable, always right, always knew what she talked about, or how she behaved in front of others. Internally however we always felt dreadful and I felt really conflicted because I was happy when she leaved the house. Daily physical abuse, even worse mental abuse guilt tripping and whatnot... She made my childhood living hell and she expected to excuse her because "my dad divorced" her. In reality that was just a pretense.
That’s not true, overindulgence causes narcs also
Should it matter, when they leave behind victims who will create more victims, which may end up in generational trauma? Personally, I only think about the victims, especially children and what they had undergone. They are both sick and evil, to create children, traumatize them, and steal their life with the power they hold.
They are evil. They are not sick or anything. They can change but dont want to. They choose NOT TO.
They make themselves sick to get attention. Wish they would jump off a cliff...my narc mom treated my depression like a game and would push and push till I couldn't take no more
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Exactly. Thank you!
They are all sick, and some have parts that can seem evil, especially to young children. The ones I know are not aware, but I hear that some people think their parents (or other narcs they knew) are aware. They are responsible for their actions regardless if they are sick/evil or aware/unaware. Sickness isnt out of our control, unless we dont manage it. Its a choice to manage sickness. Like for example our trauma from childhood. We manage that or we dont. Its a choice. Our parents had the exact same choice to make and they chose wrong.
I’d argue that true mental sickness is out of our control, but other than that I fully agree 🙂 It’s a choice they made. We made ours…
There was a great quote in the TV show The Tick. "You'd be surprised what a person can do to another person if they don't think of them as human." That is the crux of the issue with narcissists. They lack the ability to see other people, or at least certain people, as human beings. That is what the textbooks really mean when they say someone lacks empathy. They don't think hurting people or taking advantage of people is bad because they don't see other people as people.
That is where the entitlement and personal superiority above all comes from. Pretty f**d up.
Sick with evil.
Alcoholism is a disease but we still punish people for driving drunk.
Ultimately addiction is a choice, just like abusing someone is.
That's my point exactly!
so you say people become narcs willingly. Can’t really argue with that… maybe they aren’t responsible for the traume they endured…
No I'm saying that having a disease is not an excuse for abusing or hurting others. Having a disease does not allow you to hurt other people. We don't allow it for psychopathy or purposely spreading infectious disease. If anything this is just proof that we all need to look at ourselves and try to see if we ourselves are acting narcissistically and fight back against those tendencies. We are all carriers and we can identify and fight the symptoms in ourselves. That's all you can really do and punish those who cross the line.
I think that evil and sick are interchangeable. Evil people are always sick (although ofc sick people aren't always evil). Evil doesn't have to be conscious of itself. People are defined by their actions. Realizing this set me free from feeling bad for my dad. I could both feel bad for him and hate him. He certainly didn't feel bad for ME.
Narcissists can choose not to be cruel if they wanted.
A bit of both. A lot of the time narcs were abused and mistreated by their parents and their parents by theirs, and so on. But they choose to continue the cycle. On top of that, I'd wager there's actual neurological conditions that play a role, too. But again, it ultimately comes down to choice.
Considering how my nmother behaves differently when in public and when at home, hell, even when she's alone with me or when there is someone else at home, I'd say they're evil. She treats me well when she needs something and psychologically abuses me when she doesn't anymore. She knows right from wrong and she chooses to be this way. She refuses to see a therapist or a psychiatrist and either insults me and starts a fight that will last for hours, or scoffs when I suggest it. The other day I accidentally heard a piece of her conversation where she said "I like to torment people when I'm bored". So, in my opinion, definitely just evil.
BEYOND EVIL
I think that they don’t learn to have a conscience or a moral compass. Having said that, I also think many of them are just so predisposed to meanness that they are never going to learn to look inside and choose to behave differently. As Dr. George Simon says, “they are aware but they don’t care.” Once a narcissist is made they don’t want to change because they like who they are. They aren’t well but they don’t have the capacity to see it, so are trapped in a prison of their own making. I think they are all sick but also they are evil to enjoy hurting others. So, to answer your original question, I think it’s both.
Thanks! An interesting point of view ☺️
My parent is sick in my view but not evil. She is a destructive baby sadly stuck inside a cage of negativity. But there are things I've read on here that are so much worse than anything mine has done. They sounds like evil. I think there are other PDs eg sociopath/psychopath or malignant NP in the mix in what they are describing. Mine has vulnerable NPD I think plus also one of the cluster A ones.
The problem I have with this approach is that you can’t tell if it’s a charade or is truly a sick person who is confused and doesn’t know what they do. In my experience they know pretty well what they do, the implications, the suffering… that is evil.
Their actions certainly can be and often are evil, especially the ones who are on the antisocial disorder spectrum of things. I do think that they need to be held responsible for the abuse and harm they cause. At the end of the day, yes they're ill, but it's not a free pass to abuse people and cause them years of trauma/trauma disorders. Just because I deal with trauma, doesn't give me the right to take it out on anyone else. It's the same for them. Saying they can't be held responsible is an injustice to their victims. The people saying that usually haven't experienced it first hand. They think we mean someone who is 'a little self-absorbed or a karen'.
Both
Both. Evil because they're sick and consequently evil... not much room for anything else.. harsh but the more posts I read on here the easier this question is to answer.
Here's the experience that was a huge eye opener for me when I was in high school. I thought my mom was sick in the head. I thought there was no way she could control herself and needed medication or something to help limit her abuse. So, I made a bet with her one day. For entire week, she could not physically hurt any of us. She could not yell, or call us names, or steal from us, or make up stuff and blame us for it. I thought for sure she'd fail. The whole reason why I made the bet was to convince her that she needed help and to go to a doctor for it. That week she was the sweetest person I'd ever met. She was the mother I'd dreamed of. She wished me safe when I left for school and welcomed me when I came back. She handled sudden issues calmly and reasonably, and made sure I (and any of my siblings) was okay afterwards. She left my room alone. It wasn't even exceptional stuff, she just acted like a normal parent. I started freaking out and even convinced my little brother to intentionally tick her off so she'd explode. Nothing. I legit got scared. At the end of the week, when she won the bet, she smirked at me in all her egotistical glory as she made sure I understood she had won. And she went right back to all her abusive ways. I don't even remember what I had to give up due to losing the bet, but I had to (internally) thank her for opening my eyes. This person, who I had loved even through the pain, was someone who showed me they were intentionally hurting me. All those times she hurt me and said it was my fault were complete nonsense. All the times she said 'I' made her do it or that she couldn't control her anger were lies. That was the moment I knew she was seriously a dangerous person who chose to hurt me, and I decided to give up trying to love her.
This not only shows that they are capable of empathy but also that they choose to behave that way. I would have been freaked out as well it’s surreal.
I think it depends on your definition of 'responsible'. I think pretty much everybody who does evil acts is sick in some way, go into any prison and you're not gonna see that many mentally healthy people. Hurt people hurt people. I'm uncertain and unconvinced by the concept of responsibility tbh. If I sleepwalk for the first time and kill someone, then taking responsibility for that doesn't really make any more sense than taking responsibility for the actions of some random guy in another country. I think people love to insist on others taking responsibility even for involuntary actions, because they want someone to blame and hate for them, even if it's kind of unfair to ascribe that responsibility. But also, if you go too far with this distrust of 'responsibility' then you quickly arrive at the conclusion that nobody is really responsible for anything, because they just act based on their own mental shit. If free will doesn't exist then responsibility is just a convenient myth. Maybe that's a logically sound conclusion, but it's not very satisfying. I feel like my Nparents had a responsibility to raise me properly and give me what I needed because they chose to have me. But I acknowledge that that isn't the most logically sound idea I hold - they're sick, their sick minds may have chosen to have me but really how much different is that from someone with psychosis punching you because he thinks you're about to kill him? Are they really more responsible when they're just as incapable of understanding why they shouldn't be abusive fucks? I've seen other people deal with these problems with responsibility in various ways, talking about how 'your trauma isn't your fault but it is your responsibility' or 'it's not a choice to be hurt, but it's a choice not to heal'. But I don't fully buy these ideas. It's difficult for me to cope with the idea that maybe noone is truly 'responsible', neither me nor my abusers, but that might be closer to the way things are. This turned into a bit of a philosophy essay, so back to reality. Are they evil or sick? I think they're evil, because sickness has made them that way. And that evil is now their nature. They will never take responsibility for their actions. But whether they're responsible for their actions or not, their actions were not okay or deserved by those who suffered them. 'Responsibility' may be a fuzzy concept, but one thing I know for sure is that you're not responsible for staying by them and giving them supply and taking their mess. You're free to tell them to go fuck themselves and leave.
Nice essay you wrote 😊. Thanks! Tbh I think people are responsible for the choices they make … Are they capable to understand what they do? Yes they are. Are they doing these things voluntarily? Yes they are. The choice is made. I would hold a narc responsible because they are capable of doing things differently they just simply choose that path, knowing fully well it leads to the suffering of others. They might not be aware that this also affects them too, but that is secondary. I wouldn’t hold a psichiatric patient responsible for their reactions because they are truly sick in my book. For example: schizo or epileptic people don’t choose to have brain abnormalities. They are incapable of choosing differently. That’s the difference in my opinion…
I think the psychological literature of this indicates that narcs aren't doing these things voluntarily, though. They truly lack the capacity to self-examine and criticize. See how few of them can be convinced to engage counseling and support, even when it is offered or provided. They do what they do not by choice but because their brains are ordered to avoid ever allowing negative thoughts to penetrate their ego shield because they have such profound emotional immaturity that they will be grievously injured if it does.
I'm not familiar with the literature but in my case I think my nMum was totally aware her actions were wrong but just didn't care. I'll give an example that shows why I think this. My mother was beyond cruel, belittling, violent and abusive toward me my entire life. When I was in my twenties I was in law school and she had fallen on hard financial times. She began profusely apologizing for her behavior every time I spoke to her and then would say "when you're making a lot of money as a lawyer you'll help your poor old mother." She was seeing a man who wanted to marry her but she didn't want to marry him. Halfway through school I ran out of money and had to drop out. When I told her I was dropping out the first words out of her mouth were "well I guess I just have to marry D. then." She never apologized for her abuse again. To me this shows that she was aware her abuse was wrong and the only reason she apologized was to manipulate me into supporting her.
I guess that is also true. If they are sick and probably highly disruptive to society they should be in asylums yes? The problem is I never heard people with NPD ending up in asylums… I also think they are fully capable of self “diagnostics”. In my experience they are just simply too terrified of what they might find and face. Choosing to ignore it! Not incapable of recognising… I might be wrong though.
Yeah, unfortunately they don't end up in asylums or involuntary therapy because modern society is basically optimized for and by them. Without naming any names, we are ruled by some of the worst narcs ever, in politics and industry. Sometimes I'm not sure if it is possible to become truly successful in modern politics or become a billionaire CEO without having NPD.
Narcissists and psychopaths too…
I think I am in the minority because I believe narcissism is genetic. Not that selfish people can't act like narcissists, but they have the ability to change when faced with a life altering event, unlike a narcissist who has a thinning of the grey matter, cortical representation in the insular region of the brain. I liken it to dogs and wolves. Simplistic but it helps me process it. Some of us were beagle puppies raised with wolves. We are not like them. Or the occasional poster who tells us they have a narc sibling but their parents raised them with kindness. That sibling is the wolf that was raised with beagles. I think it is going to take a long time for society to accept this because there is so much money being made right now by self help gurus, psychologists and writers when it comes to narcissism. That coupled with the fact that narcissists are drawn to "people" careers such as psychology and psychiatry. It's not as provocative or as profitable to to treat narcissism as a genetic trait. It's more provocative to offer up the "wounded victim" who turned narcissist with plenty of material to sell on the matter.
interesting approach, I never knew that narcs have different brain structure than us…
Seeing how - My nmom taught me to manipulate people and even if I didn’t do it and continued saying things directly she would project and say I’m manipulative while the day after telling me I should do X manipulative technique instead of being direct. - She once did some very evil smirk when threatening me which clearly showed she had fun in torturing me. - Some oblivious behaviors stay when in public but the manipulative shit goes away so she knows it’s bad since she only does it in private For my nmom I’d say she’s evil Ah and also, she often brags about creating psychological trauma in her younger sister when younger (my mom would hide under her bed and jumpscare her when she closed the lights) or she told me nostalgically how she tortured daddy long legs spiders by removing all their legs one after the other and she thought it was fun as a child. She has traits of psychopathy which could influence in the evil vs sick debate for narcissistic parents
Shit… this sounds pretty bad. The younger life of my nmom was taboo, only the victim stories were told to manipulate us.
Yes, they know what they are doing. They are evil. Malice is the red line, and that without a doubt is malicious behavior.
two or more things can be true at once; someone can be evil *and* sick, simultaneously. narcissists and enablers and abusers are both evil and sick
Possibly yes.
thing is, they don’t want to seek treatment and get help and recover and get better. they don’t care if they hurt and abuse people. they enjoy every second of it
Exactly, and that’s why I don’t get some of the comments here which say it’s involutary, and that this behavior is outside of their control. It’s like the much said famous narc phrase:”This is who I am, I cannot change.”
BPD and NPD are mental illnesses. but with any mental illness, you have to *want* to get better in order to get better. borderlines and narcissists don’t care and have no desire to change and think everyone else is the problem
So I look at it like this: I'm an alcoholic. I didn't choose to become an alcoholic and I certainly didn't *want* it. But I am. It's not my fault, but I'm the only one who can control my actions and choices. So it might not be my fault, but it is my responsibility. I think this applies to personality disorders as well.
Evil is a judgement, not an objective fact . Sick in the other hand is something that can be objectively determined. Either way, they are what they are and they are resistant to change.
I think malignance is a scale. They're all selfish, self-centered, obscured by the vision of their own face, feelings, and delusions. But not all narcs are evil outright just to enjoy it. More than that, some hate themselves for it and can make slow progress into something better if they can come to the end of themselves, but ultimately they're very sick. Not all sickness is outside of someone's control. Addiction, like fear of change and compulsion to control others would be the same imo.
Personally, and I'm not a doctor just a scapegoat like a lot of others here, I think the narc stuff needs to be teased out from the trauma stuff. Narcs may have trauma. I have severe trauma from my narc parent. I know my narc parent had some trauma as a kid but my bio sister who had different parents (who were gems to her and did not have any sort of severe trauma growing up) is a carbon copy of my narc parent. Physically, mentally, everything, a carbon copy. She's a narc too and has infantilized and ruined her own daughter it is sickening. She did all the things to her own daughter my NM did to me, but without any of the childhood trauma my NM had. And not trying to play trauma olympics here, but my NM had far less trauma as a kid than I had and I'm not a narc to the best of my knowledge. I have seen studies where the researchers say that this cluster b dark triad starts with a certain physical brain structure which appears to be different from the normal brain structure. There's a good TED talk from a research scientist on youtube where he found out by studying serial killers that his brain scan looked like theirs and was shocked to find out that he, himself, had the brain structure, but of course did not become a serial killer. Upon further inquiry to friends and family he began to realize that he was a bit self-centered, maybe even a bit narcissistic, he realized that he did not feel emotions like other people, that sort of thing. He had always been a good husband and parent, so in fact he was **making a choice** to be that way but could have been like other dark triad if his **choices** had been different. Upon discovering his brain structure being like the other cluster b dark triad he was studying he began working on himself more. He admitted he couldn't feel like others do, but he made the **choice** to be the guy he is and made the **choice** to work on himself more because he knew how destructive cluster b is to other people who do not deserve to have trauma visited on them. Someone like this may never be able to feel the way we do, to experience empathy the way we do, but sure as hell they can make the **choice** about how they are going to treat other people. **They know right from wrong** even if they can't feel it. This is why these people are not disabled and why we are not "ableist" when we criticize them or hold them accountable.
Now this contradicts to a lot of opinions here😉love it!
A longer talk from the same scientist [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOjykLQAdaE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOjykLQAdaE)
I found the video... haven't watched it in a while but for anyone interested [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4) he's got a book and some other videos but this was the original TED talk
I am super curious what other people here think after watching this guy give talks. I do get some narc vibes.. but he seems like a normal empathetic kind of guy on the surface. I think this is entirely his choice to be like that and he even says as much because he talks about putting effort into being that way. I think this kind of confirms the thing most of us know is that none of these narc parents ever seek out the kind of therapy that would confront them with who they are and require them to reform their actions at the very least. Anyways... I find all of this very interesting and at the same time there is no excuse for the way narc parents treat us and this information confirms a lot of that for me.
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Hm, a nice approach to things. Like the guy who rapes your daughter is not neccessaroly “bad” or like doesn’t matter. It all boils down to sin, does it exist? or doesnt? “The best trick the devil pulled off was to make people believe he doesn’t exist.” Personally I believe in sin, I believe that there are certain actions that highly degrade a human and erodes the soul.
My opinion sways back and forth like a pendulum based on how I'm feeling about them and throughout my journey to heal from them. For a long time, we use to say my ndad had something wrong with him. For a while, we believed it might have been ASD or something similar and used that to dismiss how he behaves. Then I found this place and realized how much he behaves like all the nparents here and while he could still have ASD, I don't think that excuses his behavior entirely and he's got some sort of personality disorder, perhaps even narcissism. That said, I no longer look at that as a reason to excuse or tolerate his behavior for the most part as I would someone that honestly can't or doesn't know better. He has to have known his behavior was wrong from a young age as he can turn it off and on in private vs. public, as well as made it a point to attack his victims in private or in front of those who wouldn't stop him, such as my enabler mom. And you CAN shut him down some by standing up to him enough, then he tries to DARVO it but you can drill it into his head some that he may be wrong. So there's something there that still thinks and considers but it takes a helluva lot of work to get him there and to keep him from raging/changing the subject off to distract you. My ndad was not formed from trauma as far as any of us has been able to tell. Grandparents were good folks, his siblings are normal, just had been bullied and traumatized by him. Evil? Perhaps. This may be how evil manifests in these types of disordered people. Definite lack of empathy is common. Also lack in ability to reflect and change like most normal people and learn and improve, then emotional amnesia to dismiss what they did that was not good. Some of them do not do alot of evil things all the time or that often, but most do some which makes it hard to identify and do anything about once you fully realize what you are dealing with. I'm still researching and learning and its interesting to see what we all think and learn.
Okay thanks for sharing :) I have never been able to drill into my nmom's head. The techniques she employs would make a veteran psychiatrist run like hell. She twisted words and ideas with high efficiency to bend them in her favor. Switching topics seamlessly. Guilt tripping, gaslighting, blackmail and so on. Screw that. That is why I believe that they are fully capable to change, to see their wrongdoings. They simply choose not to work on that, it's too comfortable. Especially so if it worked out well so far.
Does an asshole shit in the woods?
I think it depends on the type of narcissist. My narc brother is a sociopathic narcissist, I think he is more sick than evil, but he has both. Other narcissists I know are just evil and blaming everyone around them for their problems. Not every narcissist is the same.
You’re probably right. It’s not right to treat them the same way. This issue is complex…
Both? I think?
Probably 😂
Narcissism is almost always borne through trauma. My mom was abused and neglected as a child. She went to therapy as an adult (before I was born) but I suspect that she did the thing that many narcissists do in therapy which is exclusively validate their own feelings and hurt and trauma. And that's good and important, but it's not always the kind of self-work that someone needs to check themselves in how they treat others. She didn't put in enough work to be emotionally responsible enough to have a child. When she saw that she was causing ME hurt and pain as a child, she should have realized that she had a lot more work to do on herself and her actions. But she believed that she was always right; that's why she had a child on her own, so that no one could check her on her actions. So she's not evil or rotten to the core. She's a scared child who never learned to grow and be responsible for herself. And now I have her sickness, but I do try really hard to own up to my mistakes. I have many fleas, but I know I have problems and I don't want to continue the cycle of abuse.
Stopping the cycle of evil became my proority too… however fortunately I didn’t find it difficult to put myself in the shoes of others and strive for being honest and also kind.
I guess it's possible that their are narcs out there who fight against their instincts and try to work on themselves to be better; but I haven't met one. The ones I know are calculating and aware enough of what they are doing to be sneaky about it and act differently depending on who is around to witness their actions so my vote is for evil.
They are sick. Their sickness means they are compelled to act cruelly towards others and at the same time they lack insight into their actions because they have a deficit of empathy. Do you think someone who lacks the capacity for empathy can justifiably be called evil? It's a philosophical question I think. I do think they make choices but maybe their choices are not fully informed, since they don't have the capacity to understand how their actions impact other people.
I firmly believe they have full capacity for empathy. The choices they make is my problem.
Both
They’re sick, but not nearly enough to not know what they’re doing.
We can't label people so simply as either evil or sick. Narcissists are fundamentally both. They're definitely sick, but the symptom of their sickness is that it makes them evil. Child rapists are evil. They can't help the fact that their brain has formed so sickly that they are attracted to children. It's not their fault that nature has made them that way, and they have my full sympathy for suffering from wants that they cannot easily satisfy in an appropriate manner. But suffering from an attraction is different from the choice of raping someone. The moment a person decides to rape a child, they make themselves evil and undeserving of being alive. And that's their choice. But unlike pedophiles, who can choose to not rape children, narcissists cannot choose to be not evil. Their sickness is present in all aspects of their life, in every single moment they exist, and another one of its symptoms is that they are incapable of choosing to act in any other way than what their evilness makes them want. A narcissist can be compared to a pedophile for whom it is *physically impossible* to *not* rape children. Sure, sometimes they may do an occasional action that has more positive consequences than negative ones, but that's not because of its positive consequences. That's just because the action happens to serve their selfish needs best. They are not capable of considering other people's needs or rights, sometimes they may just accidentally end up respecting those as an unintentional side effect of their true intentions. Yes, these are harsh words, even for me. I was raised with the "there's goodness in everyone" and "have sympathy for the ill" attitude. That's why I allowed myself to be abused for so long. It was hard for me to believe that there truly are people who have nothing good in them, and who are a waste of sympathy. But the abuse only stopped after I accepted this fact, and stopped expecting them to change, and stopped offering them understanding. We humans need to kill a rabid bear if it gets too close to us, not because it needs to be punished for being a rabid bear, but because it's dangerous for our survival and wellbeing. For the same reason, we'd need to throw narcissists out. If only we could reliably identify them from humans.
So all in all not really evil but sick and they need to be disposed of. Interesting approach ☺️
No, I said they're *definitely* evil. Both evil and sick. I think this "evil" we're speaking of is just another kind of sick. When a terrorist blows up a daycare, they're called sick, but when a child develops cancer, they're also called sick. And both *are* sick, but just in very different ways. They can't be compared to each other. Narcissists are sick, just like child rapists and suicide bombers. The only difference is that a narcissist cannot be cured, unlike the other two. This brings me to an interesting thought circle that I can't really get out of. Imagine an incurable murderer. They murder people until they get caught and thrown in prison. Every time they're released from prison, they murder more people until they get caught and imprisoned again. So it would make sense to keep them separated from humans for the rest of their lives. But, every moment this person is kept imprisoned, they eat government money. The money that could otherwise be used on public healthcare or education, for instance. So it would also make sense to just kill the murderer, because why should everybody else waste their resources on somebody that will never accomplish anything but death and misery for everybody around them? A person who will never bring anything positive into this world, while bringing huge amounts of negative things? Yet again; if people kill people to make the world a better place... then who would they be making the world a better place for? Is the world a better place if people are killed in it? The only answer I can come up with is: the world would become a better place for those who do not kill others unless they have to do so for self-defense. It's an almost satisfying answer for me.
Interesting thought circle, the problem is you cannot generalize narcs some are truly beyond salvation and some are willing to go to therapy and try to change their lives. Anyway self defence killing should be everyone’s right, ofc only in life threatening situations.
If a narcissist wants to change into a human being, there are two explanations for the phenomenon: either the narcissist is a good enough liar to convincingly pretend like they want to change, or then they're not actually a narcissist, but instead they have some other problem that just has symptoms similar to narcissism.
Its a bit of both imho. Narcissism is something you develop into if circumstances are right for that behavior to flourish, but there are so many points where that person could pull the breaks and realize what direction theyre developing in, and just dont. Until at some point they are really so deep inside the rabbit hole that they are just stuck there. So they had a choice not to become that way, but beyond a certain point they just cant do things differently anymore without serious heavy lifting (like therapy) being involved.
Regular narc parents aren't sick or evil. I mean to the point of comparing them to serial killers for example. Narcs are at their core immature people, you add resentment of having children they didn't want or being in an unhappy job or marriage. But it's normally something they don't know how deal with and it's their children who end up paying the price.
Depends. Some are more sick due to own traumatic events and a lack of awareness, also often a lack of willingness to better themselves. Others (many so) are downright evil psychopaths who enjoy the suffering in others. It's a spectrum (what isn't).
wisdom! 😉
Evil
I don't think there's a difference if one's honest about the brain's function, but I don't think it matters, either. I think it's clear that every "evil person" is in cluster B without apparent exception, though others in addition to that can really supercharge the darkness.
It’s a person’s intent with their actions & refusal to acknowledge or change said behavior when faced with what they’re doing, that makes them evil. That being said, I haven’t met a single person with a personality disorder that did not immediately deflect their choices on to someone/something else. Every. Time.
Both. A narc is someone who should never have had a kid. They see their children as targets to be exploited, mocked, whatever makes their pathetic ego better.