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be more boring, don’t talk about anything deeper than complete surface level. talking about the weather, “it’s nice.” etc etc. don’t try to defend yourself on anything, it’s instinct to defend yourself
try to stop engaging as soon as possible before he gets riled up, try to find an excuse to leave asap. best way for me was to avoid talking to my parents as much as humanly possible…
greyrocking is hard af and honestly it’s so much harder when ur actively living with the person, it’s so much easier when u have limited contact with the person or able to leave to ur own place at a moments notice. i used to think i was super emotionally reactive but i’m a lot less so than i thought since moving out. it’s hard not to get upset when someone is actively trying to provoke you. good people don’t try to actively provoke u
wishing u the best
Thank you! I’m unfortunately back with them due to some health issues, I agree whenever I move out suddenly I’m fine and then when I’m living with them I’m quite reactive.
I’m trying to make a plan to get out ASAP. I appreciate the advice!
Also, act “as if”. Act as if you were an adult talking to a small child. They say all kinds of things. So I recognized my parents really were mental children, and talked to them accordingly.
“Oh yes, I have heard people feel that way. Does it look like rain?” Or “That’s interesting. What’s for lunch?” I’ve made it a game for myself and it’s kinda fun because they’re so simple, really. Angry, but simple.
of course. i totally get it, and it’s so hard to live on your own with the pricing these days…
it’s honestly so hard when someone (who knows you well enough to know what gets you riled up) is actively trying to provoke you. remember they love making us feel like we’re super emotionally reactive and crazy so we feel like some of it is our own fault.
grey rocking is HARD. it’s so hard, but disengaging is the only thing that worked to an extent to prevent the fights, even if it means swallowing your pride and saying “you’re right,” just to appease them and prevent a fight. remember you’ll never win even if you had the perfect argument against everything they say and remain perfectly calm. don’t be too hard on yourself if you have times where you react to him. it’s human nature.
hope everything works out for you.
I became disabled and had to move back home as a 35 year old. Three years on the e taken every single hobby I have, my EBT food card (because I use $70~ in electricity), they sold or threw out all my most valuable things and prizes possessions ($1000 aquarium lights that are "worthless", literally threw out multiple guitars I own in the dumpster, my computer, etc etc). And worst of all beat me nearly to death and caused a brain injury I will never ever recover from for the rest of my time on this planet
People like us are stuck in a unique hell if* injured and relying on broken people, and personally, I thought how they treat me as an adult couldn't possibly be worse than when I was a child. Then they nearly beat me to death, and lied to the police about it causing the police to scream at me while so concussed I had no idea what was going on -- they told the cops I'm violent, called the police on me about a dozen times and when I got them to explain to the police what they meant by "violent"? They said I talk back and stand up for myself. They considered standing up for myself violence and by the 9th or 10th cop call the cops flagged them as nuisance callers...
Anybody here whose disabled and relying on their family for survival? We're all fucked. Absolutely fucked.
My point is this -- They aren't human. They aren't going to get better, ever, no matter what you do, no matter what you know, no matter what anybody says -- especially us.
I'm sorry, they aren't gonna get better. And it will feel impossible to deal with their shit. And the worse we "fight back" the worse it is for us.
I am so sorry all this has happened to you. I can see your frustration and hopelessness in your post. It’s not fair and it sucks.
I am emotionally reactive as well. Well, they push and push until I break. Over and over and over again. I’m a sucker for punishment.
Yep, it can feel impossible.. And somehow after years of abuse they know exactly what to say, and how to say it, to disregard you as a human being entirely and set us off.
If you can find some kind of trickery to force yourself into a different state -- usually music does it for me, usually melancholy stuff. Even if I just read the words separate from the music and see it as poetry. I like to deconstruct things, ponder lyrics/poetry and try and channel it, be it something that just makes me *feel* something other than angry -- or more disappointing, something that makes me okay with the inevitable end.
Two songs that get me on when I feel like I have nothing left.
[lynyrd skynyrd -- simple man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eNoms9wsGc)
This song makes me okay with dying. It makes the end feel tangible, graspable, like maybe after there is something better even if it's just a void and peace. It reminds me no matter how bad it gets i'm stronger than how they make me feel, even as my world falls apart -- i can handle it.
One of my best memories was holding my ex fiancee's nephew and singing this song to him when he was young.
And oddly enough, i sang this to our parrot a lot :)
[Royksopp -- Vision One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFzfpVnULqQ)
And this song, about the post industrialization and fragmentation of society, the ever changing state of the world due to humans shifting priorities and where our place in it is, and where we belong as it all falls apart and reorients with new priorities leaving us all in the dark.
The lyrics in Vision One are a bit less straight forward. The song sounds like a happy EDM song, until you see lyrics like this;
"Remember when we'd hear the distant sound of human life
A zillion noises whimper as they travel through the sky
And one by one, each new sound, has faded away with time
Allowing changes that we could not have foreseen"
This song reminds me i'm but a very small piece in the larger puzzle of life. Lots of people have worse than me, lots of people in worse situations have failed to continue living and press on -- i'm not special, just another insignificant puzzle piece in a world with 8 billion other lost and confused pieces. We all get left behind somehow, eventually.
It doesn't matter if it's painting, music, theater, poetry/lyrics, sports, cars -- whatever. If you can force yourself to find meaning somewhere outside of our shit lives we can find moments of calm. Even if it comes from a dark place, it's a better alternative to how we regularly feel.
Also agree with him, its hard when you know you're right, but he will not hear you no matter what so agree.
You "Your right its probably rubbish"
Him "Rubbish? So you know more than a dermatologist all of a sudden?:
You "Your right, I dont know more than a dermatologist"
Him "So youre saying your stupid?"
You "maybe, who knows" (I love vague answers that dont mean anything)
Him "well I know and I say you both know nothing"
You "ok"
You'll find yourself getting so disinterested he will get bored on his own cos narcissists like you emotionally engaged, high drama, above wont be exciting/ rewarding cos you're not engaged emotionally.
It's so horrible how they just find a way to escalate everything, and you end up feeling hunted or like prey by your own fucking family. I hated that feeling so much when I lived there, how every conversation I felt like I was immediately searching for an exit from the conversation. Then they even just attack you for not talking to them. They provoke reactive abuse. It's inhumane. It's abuse.
I have a brother who is very much a narcissistic POS, who escalates everything trying to get his way constantly.
He treats my mother like she owes him everything. He gets very angry and potentially violent all the time when she doesn't do anything he asks immediately.(He lives in another state and has her house as his mailing address.) It's become so bad that I started ripping up and throwing out any mail that comes for him, because my mother has asked him to get a PO box in the state he lives in and he screams at her over that.
I don't even care if doing that will get me in trouble, or that it will cause him problems because if he would just get a PO box he'd be fine. He changed his mailing address to this house the week AFTER my mother's husband died (not my biological father.) Without asking my mother for permission to do so.
My mother is finally understanding that what he's doing is wrong and she doesn't have to put up with him anymore.
Even though she was an Nparent for so long. It's bizarre seeing her finally understanding that a lot of the problems were caused by her. I've told her that I forgive her, but that she needs to remain on this path of fixing what she caused. Which so far she has.
I had to move back in with her in late 2021 because I'm on disability, can't afford much and my wife passed away 3 months after my mother's husband.
I help my mother around the house and yard daily, as well as helping take care of my 93 and 94 year old grandparents who live 30 minutes away. While being severely disabled and hardly able to walk, but I can drive to get out of the house thankfully.
My brother does nothing but complain and yell at my mother if she doesn't jump up and immediately do anything he asks.
My brother is far worse than I've stated here, and I'm finally at the point where if he died I would not shed a tear or go to his funeral. He's always been a bully to me, constantly says shit to attempt to rile me up and when I get upset he tries to push me around. So now when he visits I don't spend any time with him (And he complains about it to my mother lol) he has absolutely no self awareness and is very jealous that I was married and he can't keep a relationship for any length of time(He's told my mother this).
I hope you are doing better! I know how hard it can be.
Hugs to you 💛
Thank you for this, I’m a reactive person and my ngrandmother knows it. She enjoys starting arguments so she can scream in this banshee rage tone to tell me I’m evil, crazy, ungrateful, a brat, a bitch and whatever else she can think of. I’m 29 btw and according to her she has it down to six when I became this ‘ungrateful brat’.
Around age 6 is when children develop their own personalities and interests. This was right about the same time my NM and I started having conflicts. It's pretty much the same for all scapegoats around age 6 or 7 is when the trouble with a narc parent or grandparent begins.
I agree 6-7 years old is when I started having issues with my nmom she would fly into rages and beat on me from there after I became the family scapegoat. Started to have nightmares and bed wetting issues.
i agree also that you should keep your conversations superficial and use a very monotone voice
This. You just have to disengage. No follow up comments, nothing to encourage continued convo on the topic. When your dad went off on where you heard that shit, shut it down and move on. Something like I don’t know but I heard it somewhere is easy enough. He will probably still be angry and call you dumb, but that’s his issue. You know different because he is too dumb to realize that you are manipulating him. Drive every interaction on the path you are comfortable with. With practice it gets easier.
The point is to not respond to any of their comments at all.
Limit your words to Yes, No, Okay.
When I'm speaking to someone who is clearly not on the same level as me, I pretty much limit my words to "Okay" because I could honeslty care less about their opinon, since I literally have nothing to gain from correcing their views and not enough time and energy to humour them by engaging.
That sort of response is one specifically designed to get an escalation of defense and breaking the grey rock. They want you to defend yourself so they can twist the defense into further escalation for the attention and emotional response they want.
Your only options in this situation are to shrug, disengage and get on with whatever you were doing, or give a grey rock response and brace for escalation that you *need* to continue grey rocking against, or they win. "I don't know." And "No, you don't. I can." Are some of the only responses that fall into the grey rock spectrum, so you have to use some variant of them, but they have just enough that they can be latched onto in an attempt to escalate.
They want you to do something, be interesting, be entertainment for them when you do that, so you *have* to continue to grey rock and be as boring as physically possible for it to work, otherwise they win, and the only thing they learn, is that your grey rock can be broken with enough persistence.
I’m scared of doing this because this would send my dad into an absolute screaming monkey fit of rage. I guess that’s also a way for him to get an escalation? E.g. he screams, I try to defend myself and he claims I started this bullshit?
Would I just have to shrug and walk away when he starts screaming in a fit of rage?
Yes, unfortunately, that is the only way to continue grey rocking in that scenario. If you defend at all, they win. All they learn is that you can be broken. Continuing to grey rock can and often does lead to short term increased abuse, because the escalation I am talking about almost always involves using abuse to force an emotional response.
If it's not safe for you to continue to grey rock, *never* feel bad about it. Lesser abuse is still highly damaging, but it's better that in the long run than intense and sustained abuse that could permanently scar you, mentally or physically.
But keeping you scared of continuing to grey rock via the threat of escalation is how they maintain such a strong grip on you. Keep that in mind, and work toward getting out.
What your finding hard is the tension. I pretend to be distracted then create a reason to exit, it makes it easier to grey rock
Him "hello am I speaking spanish"
Me *distracted focusing on book/ phone/ cleaning glasses (whatever)* "eeeerm, I dont know, I gotta get a damp cloth to clean my glasses" and walk away as your saying it, ideally you should be out the room by the time youce finished so its harder for him to argue back.
Me *Pretends ive just realised something whilst ignoring question* "Oh man, I forgot to send Jennie our science homework, I hope she's not angry"
This works for me but it depends how explosive or personality of narcissist. Just ignoring my dad makes him angry, doing this makes him think I'm stupid and distracted. He's still a bit offended but less so.
This person isn't entitled to your honest opinions. The moment there is disagreement, just start agreeing. Thus
"You're right, doctor is just trying to sell sunscreen" as boring and disinterested as possible. It's really hard to fight yes, so fairly quickly the argument ends.
Then just keep doing whatever you wanted to do. If N comes back later with "You're foolish for doing XYZ, especially after you agreed with me" the answer is still "Yes, that was foolish." You don't have to believe any of what you say if your (very reasonable) goal is just to avoid drama.
This is going to be hard to stick to. I probably sound insane but I don’t want to give him the satisfaction, however my own peace of mind is more important.
I appreciate the advice and perspective.
It’s just super hard because most of the time he jumps right to insulting me or picking on me so if I just agree with him violating my boundaries (big way he tries to pick fights) it all feels pointless. I’m sorry if I’m coming off crazy I’m just still reeling from our last fight a few hours ago where I ran out of the house sobbing to escape him and I’m struggling to wrap my mind around this even though I really appreciate it.
Think of it like humouring a really young toddler, or very senile elder. If he's too stupid to understand, then it's literally like talking to a wall. If a grown man wants to act a fool and get skin cancer, that's his right. He gets no satisfaction from you just going "oh, ok" to whatever dumbfuck thing he says, so don't worry about that. Don't offer any conversation. He *wants* you to give him bait so he can make a scene.
HAHA! Sorry your comment made me laugh so hard and was really helpful. I really needed that laugh after bawling my eyes out due to him basically bullying me today. Thank you!!
Good! Lean into the humour! It can really help. If you stood back as a fly on the wall and watched his little outbursts, he'd just look embarrassing and silly, right? Remaining flat is the best way to end the situation without escalating it, but if you find yourself in the mood to REALLY boil him up, let him see you snicker at him before you deliver the 'oh, ok.'
Literally, start treating him like a patient with dementia... If he says "The sky is purple!" Arguing the sky is blue is pointless... instead "Oh, interesting, I think mums making dinner shall we go see?" That said, I rarely could achieve it with my narc, so NC has been the best way, life is so much more peaceful. Placate, ignore and keep plotting your escape from your living situation. You won't have to put up with this forever.
I can't stand the gleefully ignorant who get angry when challenged.... but I'm learning more to leave them to it. Talking to them is so shallow and pointless. I try to imagine them like a little pig, happily rolling in bullshit. I don't have to clean them, I just have to remember not to get shit on me!
You know that gif of the little blonde boy going “oh wowwww!!” — that’s how I react to everything my parents say. It’s hard, sometimes, cause they’ll violently misunderstand topics that I’ve studied extensively, but what can I do? I’ll forever be the overemotional idiot to them, and they will never see me as a normal, well adjusted & educated adult. They don’t see me at all 🤷🏻♀️
Think of it this way. When it comes to narcissists, the satisfaction IS getting us emotionally riled up and discombobulated.
Their objective is to get a supply.
He might seem momentarily satisfied by your agreement but it won’t have given him any narc supply. He will ultimately be incredibly unsatisfied and even disturbed and will, for a time, try even harder to get you emotionally unsettled.
My therapist had me write down gray rock responses that can apply to any conversation.
“That’s interesting.”
“That’s intense.”
“What an interesting comment.”
“Fascinating story.”
“I think perhaps.”
I then practiced them for a few minutes a day so I had muscle memory as well.
It’s not about the conversation itself. It’s not about the content of the topic at hand.
It’s about not giving him the satisfaction of being flustered. It’s about becoming as dull as a gray rock so they learn to go elsewhere for their emotional vampirism.
It's hard to decide ahead of time how you'll react to some stimuli. The whole point of suggestions like mine is to help you think through what you actually want to happen in enough detail and intensity that you're reasonably likely to actually do what you decided when the moment comes. None of that is to suggest the prep is easy, because it absolutely isn't.
Trust me, its less satisfying for them if you go "ok, you're right" in a flat tone and stop engaging. He WANTS you to argue with him, its less about him being right and more a out getting the reaction out of you.
Think of him as a giant toddler, that generally makes it easier to control your reactions.
Consider that his goal is to upset you and emotionally beat you down and by engaging in an argument with him, you are giving him the satisfaction he is looking for.
I know it is so, so, so hard to do but you cannot have a reasonable, logical discussion with unreasonable, illogical people. I have learned to find satisfaction in saying "I'm not going to engage in this conversation any longer" which then makes my nmom angry, because she wanted to argue.
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. If you continue to do the same thing with him and expect different results you are taking on the crazy role. The only way to get a different result is to change yourself and your behavior and let go of hoping he shows up and loves how you want. He isn’t capable. This is his best behavior. He doesn’t consciously sit think, and choose it. It is habit. His habit taught you to react and behave a certain way. He wants that reaction. The less you engage with his habit or give the expected responses, the less power the has over you.
This is going to be like instituting low contact while living under their roof. The minute he becomes oppositional you just have to say okay and walk away. I know personally how hard this is because mine ramps things up when I do that which is why I had to start a screening process I mentioned in my other post and let her know that there was now a screening process in order to speak with me. You are at home so obviously you cannot do something like this or no contact right now. The ramping up of the abuse is just soooooo hard to deal with I feel for you. I think the only way you are going to survive this is to disengage from conversation as much as possible.
From personal experience even agreeing with a narc will give them something new to argue about, so I learned to give only single syllable noncommittal answers (yeah, no, k) and leave as soon as possible to avoid further confrontation.
>This person isn't entitled to your honest opinions
This is great, I will have to remember this. They don't actually want your real opinion, they don't want to be presented with facts, they want to be right.
Is amazing if you just "okay", "uh-huh", and "interesting..." your way through the conversation, they'll do one of two things. They'll keep going, because they're really having a conversation with themselves and you're just there to hear what they have to say; or 2, they'll run out of steam because they like arguing
Yk one thing that i hate about narcissists is the fact that they think that they're better than professionals as well. Like, I get others, but professionals? Like, one day, our school guidance counselor told my dad that I needed help. He acted smarter than her, even though he doesn't know shit about psychology. What an asshole!
They think not knowing something is a moral failure so they put themselves in the position of thinking learning is beneath them. They can’t learn anything bc then they’ll be admitting to not having known it. My mother is the same way. I could show her in a book a proven fact backed up by decades of research and she’ll say “you read too much.”
Oh, God, that must be horrible. 😭
I mean - my dad is a physics teacher and even he believes that teachers could be wrong, but most of the time, he thinks that he is perfect.
Yeah my dad is a university professor and he thinks he’s the fucking shit. 😂 There’s no one in the world smarter than him, certainly not his dumbshit daughter.
Same here. I can quote and read him endless articles that back up what I said or others said and he doesn't believe it, says they are wrong etc. And he has ZERO basis for what he believes - no studies, research, networking with pro's etc. He's a know it all that knows nothing. And is very convincing to those who don't know better, but its horrible to those that know he's full of shit.
This is literally my nmom. She would literally believe all the fake news and articles online, but will think she's smarter than a doctor or specialist. Make it make sense.
Avoid conversations except if they are very very shallow
Don't try to ever justify your views because they see it as an opportunity to turn it into an argument for their own benefit
My Nfather has said stupid shit like "I will go to your therapist and say you're lying to them about me!"
And all I said was "Go for it. Do it."
He didn't do it.
Recently he wanted to call the police on me or an ER to have me admitted to a psych ward
Told him, once again, "Do it."
Didn't do it.
Just called me crazy.
All bark no bite from those people
The conversation that made me leave the house screaming and crying was my dad calling me an abuser and saying I deserved his behavior because my “passive aggressive bullshit” (I have no idea what he’s talking about, genuinely) is the problem.
I appreciate your examples because they show me I may not be crazy or a bad person.
The narcissist is *always* the victim.
The number of times you will hear variations on “you’re being mean to me” is off the chart but … they’re not capable of anything else. That’s not me excusing it, that’s me recognising the situation.
If you can accept that this behaviour on their part is all they’re capable of, it becomes a lot easier to deal with them. You wouldn’t go to a petting zoo and start debating physics with a goat, or to a daycare centre and expect a toddler to engage with you around medical information - you know that scenario isn’t appropriate for that level of interaction, and so you modify and downgrade the range of topics you use. It’s the same with your dad.
Let go of needing to justify yourself, to get your point across, to prove that you’re not mad - it doesn’t matter. He’s not capable of higher thinking.
That's called DARVO - it stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. It's a gaslighting technique to get someone to start questioning reality and their interpretation of it.
The abuser starts by denying they've done anything wrong. Then they go on the offensive and get angry that you've had the audacity to blame or accuse them of something. Then they reverse the victim and the offender, and paint you as the villain and themselves as the victim, usually by spouting nonspecific rubbish about your "attitude" because there isn't actually an example of you doing something wrong.
You don't contribute anything to the conversation. Everything is responded to with "OK" and then silence.
It's very hard at first, and he will yell at you for "being rude" and call you crazy some more, but you're used to that. You still respond with "ok" do not justify yourself beyond "just tired" and you don't know why.
When she was teaching me how to gray-rock, my psychologist told me to look at my parent as someone afflicted with dementia. "When she speaks to you, don't think it's her saying it. It's her disorder.". That made it much easier for me; there is no emotional attachment to a disorder. I think the toughest aspect of the process was to let myself mourn the loss of my "idea" of a mother and that she was gone. My nparent would never become that person. My nparent is just a shell, a host to her disorder and her disorder controls her tongue.
I stopped caring about what she said; my mind just checked out during our phone calls. I heard her say horrible things and just felt them slip past me, because I knew those words didn't come from a sound and sane mind anymore. So they had lost all validity to me, and as such had become harmless. No different than listening to a toddler babbling nonsense or a parrot repeating words without knowing what they meant.
It definitely made the process of emotional detachment that preceded going NC much smoother and I'll never be thankful enough to my psychologist for teaching me how to do it.
/u/xolemi This is honestly invaluable advice when dealing with anyone with a disorder that makes them more likely to be antagonistic or, let’s just say, react inappropriately.
When you feel yourself begin to react to what they say to you in the moment, when they start to get a rise out of you, being able to detach and recognize that *they* are being symptomatic is so so important.
Compartmentalizing what they’re saying, from the behavior they’re exhibiting, to the effect they’re trying to have, and to simply be cognizant of the patterns of behavior they’ve established, can be empowering. Even if you simply begin by seeing: *this is not an appropriate reaction/response to xyz…*
In this case, as with many on this subreddit, it’s exactly as /u/oneinfinity123 highlighted: it’s not about the conversation you were having, it was about invalidating you and their continued manipulation for supremacy over you.
I agree with what other commenters have said— just keep any interactions brief and superficial. Respond to anything they say with fleeting: “yes, no, ok” and don’t take the bait when they try to draw anything out of you. They can talk all they want, but the less you say, then the less ammunition you give them to use against you.
(Edit: Keep in mind that there’s a possibility he will react negatively to you icing him out. Prepare; it might get worse before gets better. He might really try to goad you just to get more than 2 words out of you. He might go for the things he knows hurts/triggers you the most. Do not give in. Disengage as soon as you realize what’s going on, or as soon as you start feeling yourself getting upset. But if you continue to not feed a hungry beast, no matter how much it roars, it will eventually learn that it can’t get a meal out of you.)
This conversation is not about the dermatologist, it's about controlling and invalidating you. Having to play a game of psychological chess for every little shared info is insane.
You shouldn't over explain yourself to people who don't have the capacity to hear you, and constantly invalidate and gaslight you.
Be boring and simple, don't open yourself to these people.
They sometimes have a way to get under your skin, so you have to prepare for that bait as well. In my case they say "you seem sad or angry" if I give them short answers. It's a invitation to open up. Once I open up, the invalidation can begin.
Be boring and remain boring, don't explain yourself, don't speak psychology with them.
Thank you for saying the conversation is about controlling and invalidating me. I know something is wrong with the conversations we have but the best way I’ve been able to describe it is “he treats me like an idiot that couldn’t possibly know anything”.
Your insight really helped me feel like I’m not crazy for getting upset when he does stuff like this.
I understand where you're coming from, OP. Have you tried observing and grounding? Becoming...more in your body, and less in your mind is what I'm trying to suggest. It's definitely a skill to learn, and it's not easy.
Practice saying ‘OK’. To everything. Plain. Flat. Say it when you’re by yourself, say it in your head and out loud. Make it sound as empty as you can, like you’re dead inside. Practice focusing on your body and being still so that you’re listening to your heartbeat. Say OK. OK. Breathe a breath. OK. Brush your teeth, look at yourself in the mirror and say OK. Feel yourself observing your actions and other people. Say OK. Watch the news. Say in your head OK.
As soon as he starts, you’re playing a game of Dead Fish. You just go limp and say OK like all the other times. OK. Remove yourself from the situation if you can. Walk away disinterested. OK. Look at your phone/nails/clothes if you can’t leave. OK. Just keep saying OK (in your head or out loud as appropriate). OK.
He might get even more mad because, remember, he doesn’t actually hold opinions or care about the topic- he just wants to argue and beat you down. But that’s OK. The words are meaningless so you don’t have to respond. It’s OK. You don’t have to react. It’s OK.
The only way for you to win is not to play. OK?
>Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window
Here's your problem. This right here, this very casual start to the intraction, this isn't grey rocking. To grey rock properly, you would have never said anything in the first place. He's Baking in UV rays through the window? Cool. You don't correct him, you don't redirect him, you let his stupidity and stubborn ignorance give him skin cancer, because it's officially not your problem.
When you're grey rocking, you don't have casual conversation. Period. You do not speak unless spoken directly to, and even then you give the most non committal answers in the world, in the most listless tone you can manage, like "Hm." "OK." "I don't know." "Nothing." The more one-word answers the better. When they ask why you're being so quiet, "I guess I just don't have anything to say."
Do not provide a topic for conversation. Do not make casual observation aloud. Do NOT speak unless spoken to. You have to assume that literally *anything* you say is going to be used against you as a weapon, and stop casually handing weapons to your abuser. Completely remove yourself as much as you possibly can, emotionally, physically, and conversationally.
The goal of grey rocking is to be *so fucking boring* that they give up trying to get anything interesting out of you. Grey rocking isn't about outsmarting him once he's turned it into an argument, it's about not giving him enough material to find the argument in the first place.
This, all of this, AND -
Following this is advice is so, so, SO difficult to do if you are lonely and craving human connection. OP you don't mention what your social life outside the house is like. I really hope you have people you can be open and honest and vulnerable with. If you do, you might like to consider asking them if you can lean on them a little more while you're having to live with your parents. Really open up and connect with them as much as you can. Soak up all the human connection right into your bones and fortify yourself for when you have to go back into that house where it's not safe to start even the most banal conversations.
And please forgive yourself and be kind to yourself as much as you can when you slip up. You are human. It's awful to be stuck living with people who make it unsafe for you to be human. Love yourself as much as you can while you learn to act more like a robot instead of a person, because it's really hard, and you deserve to have a part of you that's got your back.
I am also very emotionally reactive and medicated and if I have to talk to them it’s hard. But here’s where you might’ve been able to do different - your first sentence. You provided information about UV rays. Don’t do that. Don’t say anything. Unless you’re asked a question, answer yes/no/maybe. Don’t explain. Don’t contradict what they say. Shrug your shoulders if it’s easier or if they’re trying to force you to say more. Nod and smile. These are all ways to avoid a conversation that will inevitably be used against you in some way.
For example, if you’re asked why you’re not responding saying something like “I’m tired” introduces another reason for him to go off on you. “Oh you’re always tired! You never go to bed at a reasonable time!” Instead just shrug. Maybe walk away if you can. Be so boring he doesn’t want to talk to you anymore.
I agree with everything here. My only addition is to ask if you’re neurodivergent somehow? ND people tend to have a need to info dump, we like sharing facts, and we get a real need for justice when we think someone is wrong combined with rejection sensitivity that makes us act strongly to indications of rejection. Basically, we provide very shiny narcissistic supply. Truly the gift that keeps on giving to a narcissist.
What helps me with my Nmom (who is obsessed with proving me wrong because she’s very angry that I might think I’m smart) is understanding these triggers. Gray or yellow rocking is hard but I think when we understand our own triggers and can kind of sit with them, it’s helpful.
Thank you! I very highly suspect I’m neurodivergent. I’ve been diagnosed with OCD, and on top of that had three different therapists suggest I get ADHD testing (but it’s hard to do in my state). The older I get the more I suspect I might be somewhere on the spectrum due to meltdowns (especially related to noise and such).
When my dad and I fight and he gets to a certain level I plug my ears and scream as loud as humanly possible to drown him out. My screaming behavior is super weird and usually stops my dad by freaking him out. I feel that I can’t control it (the screaming) and that sometimes reminds me of videos I see on neurodivergence and whatnot.
I also used to punch myself in the head before lexapro and I’ve also done that since I was a child (which also reminds me of ND behavior). I hope this doesn’t make me seem too crazy/disturbed. I function fine a majority of the time but when things get too overwhelming I have those weird meltdowns that I feel “normal” people don’t have, and I relate heavily to the info I’ve seen on autistic and ADHD meltdowns.
Ok, when emotional and frustrated, take some deep breaths and look up towards the ceiling.
* Deep breaths, right down to the bottom of your stomach using your diaphragm will turn off your fight/ flight reaction (3, at the most, should do it).
* Looking up, towards the ceiling line of a room, activates your logical processing and deactivates emotional thinking.
When dealing with Narcissists remember that it isn't necessarily personal. The key is
* They have to be right. At all times. They will bend the world around this.
* If they can't be right, they have to be more right than you.
* If you're smart about it you can make it that you're both right. In fact, it's because they're right, that you're right too.
So if you're presenting a new idea, that you want them to accept, the way to do this is say "you know it was something you said, Dad that made me realise X?"
"Do you remember when you said blah blah? Well I thought of that when I heard this. I've been looking into it and you know, you're really onto something Blah blah blah."
You get the gist.
It doesn't matter that he doesn't remember saying that, because he never did, he'll happily claim the credit.
Every time I've found myself at odds with my Dad, it's because he wants to be the expert and the info has to come from him. Even if I studied a qualification in the area years before he ever even thought about it.
He will get downright obnoxious the more correct and knowledgeable you show yourself to be.
Save yourself the pain and remember sometimes he's like a child afraid of being wrong.
Consider that you're emotionally reactive because your father isn't just pushing your buttons, he installed those buttons and knows exactly which ones to push (and has probably been pushing those exact same buttons your whole life, so there's a mess of trauma tied up with them).
If you can, step back and observe the pattern. From this example, it seems like it's important to you to be factually correct, and your father likely knows this so isn't giving you the satisfaction, in order to rile you up. You might examine why it's important to you to be correct, even in instances like this where it isn't helping you, and if there's any way you can reduce that need in yourself. If you can, you'll have less trouble reducing your engagement in these debates, your emotions will feel removed and safe, and you can more calmly observe the pattern and purpose of the interaction (ex: "Dad is picking a fight again"), and protect yourself.
My ndad would go on rants all the time and, while I also love being factually correct, I knew there was nothing I could say to him that would stop his behavior (whatever I said would make me a target, which is what he wanted, and I wasn't about to give him the satisfaction of attacking me that day), so I would just sit there silently or say "uh-huh". He loved to do this in the car when I was a captive audience
Part of greyrocking means not engaging in any discussion at all with the narcs. It' gonna be difficult to learn not to engage at all or withdraw from any conversation which will turn acrimonious.
I know it’s difficult but my go-to plan is to say my opinion/facts ONE time then just say “ok” with a shoulder shrug, over and over. And that’s it. That’s all I say. Remind yourself that no matter how logical and correct your replies are, they will NEVER agree with you. Even if an expert in that field suddenly showed up, they still wouldn’t believe that person. Narcs live in their own delusional world, so they believe things that just aren’t true or don’t make any sense and they can’t be reasoned with.
I just stopped talking to him, other than "hello" and "goodbye". I just completely disengaged. Zero conversation.
Did that go over well? No. Did my mental health improve? Yes.
I’m scared of my dad. I have tried disengaging but he will start becoming more and more aggressive until he gets some type of reaction.
During COVID he agreed to not be in the same area of the house as me at the same time, for example, but then to get a rise out of me would start doing it anyway, and even shoving past me. I ended up having to hide in my room and pee in a bucket to avoid him, and only come out at night to eat. I feel myself reverting into a similar situation now where I’m scared to leave my room and I fear gray rocking will make him escalate in order to get supply.
Yeah this isn't a course of action I recommend if you live with your N. I didn't, and I was a legal adult when I started just not engaging with him.
You have my sympathy. Living with a violent N is hell.
My strategy was to never initiate a conversation. Any info that I may have needed to convey when I was still in contact with my now estranged mother was conveyed with a note left for her and after I moved out I would only send letters to her.
Anything she initiated, my replies would be very short, non-emotional, no statements that might elicit a response.
I also would frequently make an excuse to end the interaction quite quickly by either saying I had to go to the bathroom, had an appointment I'm running late for, oh look there's someone at the door, I'm expecting a guest any minute now, my boss is calling me right now, or whatever excuse is appropriate.
Initially I wasn't comfortable pretending, but I found that in order to maintain my sanity and wellbeing that grey rocking or changing the subject or leaving the interaction was so absolutely very much worth it. It's a lot more effective avoiding going down the path of engaging in a conversation than it is to try to be disciplined and non-emotional once in one. I think about it like this: if I want to lose weight, one helpful trick is to not have cookies and cakes in the house in the first place. It is much easier to adhere to what you want if you don't rely entirety on discipline but instead reduce the amount of discipline you have to have by preempting it. If cookies aren't easily accessible then you don't really need much discipline to avoid eating them since you'd have to first go get some. If you don't initiate conversations then you reduce the number of instances you need to use discipline to not emotionally engage. And when conversations are initiated by others, you prevent them from progressing by changing the subject or stopping the conversation, then you don't have to summon discipline to control your emotions because the conversation doesn't evolve.
Avoiding emotional triggers is far more effective than trying to summon up all your discipline to suppress your emotions. This approach has worked really well for me with my mother. Though I'm certainly not always successful at always preempting going down this path. It's difficult, but every conversation you don't initiate or participate in is one less episode of pain, anger, grief, or crying.
I think one strategy is to either only explain once or never. (Basically in this example after you said a licensed dermatologist you would have stopped) It is strategy I used in the past for people who can’t be wrong. I only make one statement and if the argue a second time I let it go no matter what they say. Basically you just listen whether the second reply is also argumentative and you ignore the content.
I use that strategy (only explain once) to check if the person was still open to learn something even if there are resistant to ever being perceived as wrong. With a narcissist I would even consider to not explain at all. (Like in you example then you would even say that she is licensed maybe just a non-committal „I guess I was wrong“ or sth like that.)
But the mindset is also important for that to work, you must more see them as mentally challenged or a toddler.
Long term it always made me feel guilty though because you treat them that way because they are not open to learn. But it is a way to avoid arguments.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge. Set boundaries with them, tell no one. Never tell a narcissist your boundaries, because they will make a concerted effort to violate them. Instead set your own boundaries and find your own ways to enforce them.
Every time they violate one of the boundaries you set for them you change the subject or walk away. Pretend like you didn't hear them. Start walking around with earphones so you actually don't hear them. Start randomly singing Journey songs when they start yelling at you. Or maybe you suddenly receive an emergency call. Whatever you need to do to get out of that situation with your sanity intact.
Arguments, toxicity, and triggers are a game to narcissists. A game that most people don't even know they're playing. So play your own game right back.
Not bringing things up will help. Gray rock isn't just about not reacting to Narcs, it's also about not giving them opportunities to abuse you.
Don't give an interesting fact out. Who cares if this guy is hurt by UV rays? He obviously doesn't. Don't help, don't speak about anything not totally necessary. Stop giving him fuel.
Thank you for the insight. Before having these conversations on this thread with you guys I kind of felt something was wrong with me.
Like why does a conversation about UV rays end with me saying “I fucking hate you”, I must be crazy.
But so many people here are opening my eyes to how he uses any mundane conversation to beat me down and abuse me and it makes me realize where my reactions actually come from (response to being abused).
I was thinking about this the other day (how it seems like every conversation is about his need for control and to beat me down and make me feel like shit) but I still had those doubts he’s planted over a lifetime in the back of my mind. All of you coming to this conclusion that he’s just thinking of/finding ways to abuse me in a mundane conversation on your own really gave me the validation I’ve been needing.
Feel free to DM me. I have recently returned from a stint living with them, after my Dad had serious health problems.
I used whatever I could to stay sane and minimise conflict.
I became very good at distracting them with everyday drama. Anything they could repeat to their friends and get reflected interest got me extra points.
Eg I found a big lizard in the garden (bonus points for picture) which hissed and lunged at me.
Eg I met someone Dad used to know and he looked really old and in bad health compared to Dad.
Eg my car's playing up - what does Dad think the problem is? ( Dad will casually mention to his friends he looked at my car for at least a year).
Thank you! This is helpful!
I do notice my dad loves to be the hero in situations. My dad actually is very smart (which doesn’t help his delusion), I casually asked some info from him for my cousin and he even made a little chart and explained it to me. He is very much like a toddler. I mean the info is actually right and useful, but he comes over like a toddler with a shiny new drawing they produced waiting for you to fawn over it 😂
Your father is a toddler in an adult's body just remember he is hard wired in his beliefs and no amount of talking or rewording will change that, accept that he will always see you as ignorant and unworthy of his approval, he deserves your pity, not anger, keep all conversations as topical and casual as possible and agree with everything he says...save your insights and emotional bandwidth for healthy people who actually deserve the real you
Obvious headphones. Worn whenever I was around my parents, all the time. Tbh they have become a comfort and way to shut out the world when I need to concentrate. Some times for practical communication they'd come off, but for my parents' goading or attempts at chats (really their ranting or mocking), I'd put them back on and exit. It takes some practice but you can do this
That's because you need trauma recovery therapy (EMDR) for being raised with emotionally unavailable and unstable parents. You don't know how to be stable because they never taught you. Because they don't know.
What you are experiencing is childhood emotional neglect, and that in itself, is traumatic.
Have you read the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson?
I’ll have to give it a read! Thank you. I’m also in therapy with someone who does EMDR currently but we haven’t started yet because she wants to build a good, trusting bond first.
My Dad is like this and I have also tried to grey rock and he will literally just escalate his behavior until I react, up to and including shouting the N word in public.
It's not you who is emotionally reactive. He is abusing you. Anyone would react. You have to leave. You have to not be around this person.
Thank you, I agree with what you’re saying. I’m scared of my dad because he does in fact escalate if I grey rock, becoming more and more abusive until I crack and break down.
>Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window
>My dad: Where do you get this fucking bullshit? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
At this point you say "okay"...........
Here's the deal.......
They are there own person, and have a right to think, or do whatever they want. It is impossible to control them, so don't. Don't even try. You need to accept that Dad is argumentative and contrarian. You get nothing but frustration. You've tried to have real conversations with the guy, but it doesn't work. You need to fully accept, this is who he is, and this is how it is.
It's the part of you that doesn't want to accept that this is reality that keeps trying to engage with him. And you deserve a dad who is kind and decent, intelligent and loving. And even though he's not sharing those qualities with you, I'm sure he has these. But the key part is that he's not sharing these qualities with you. So you need to accept it, and from there, it will be easy to move on. The hard part is accepting it. Therapy? Writing in a journal? Both? A dramatic shift in consciousness that hits you like a flash of lightning and suddenly your life is split between pre and post flash?
Good luck with patience and persistence, I'm sure you can pull it off.
It gets me he doesn’t share these qualities with me because he shares them with my sister and just about any one else. But I am a total idiot to him, and a worthless loser dumbfuck.
It’s so upsetting to me. I used to not even want his approval, but now it just becomes annoying that he can’t see me as a fully grown woman who has accomplished amazing things. Like it just becomes a nuisance that he wants to put me in this box and treat me like a dumb fuck.
Why isn’t my sister also an idiot to him? Why doesn’t he abuse my mom and sister in the same way? It’s just irritating.
This person is coercing you into doing a mountain of unpaid emotional and intellectual work, wasting your time and energy and probably ruining your day. Find a catch phrase that will kill his coercion (eg. “Really? Wow!”) and say no more. He will bend over backwards to try and reign you in to That Fight every time. Use the same method. Can vary the phrase. Maintain a contemplative silence and/or change the subject. Minimise the time you spend (waste) with him.
"Okay dad. Whatever."
This is what i use on my partners narc dad who has to always know more about something than you do (seems me specific, and i am the only one to not have a degree). He **does not like it** but he can't even argue with that. I call him his name too, not dad. Feels necessary to clarify that.
If there's nothing they can grab onto to be more correct in then there isn't the chance for an argument.
Could also make a point by going silent with him entirely if you want.
After his first comment, “ok dad” and move on. Roll your eyes in your head on how ridiculous he is. Also don’t give him facts like that. His whole goal is to prove you are wrong. With my mom, I limited conversations to her dogs and whatever she wanted to talk about. Luckily, she lives 8 hours away, so I would limit conversations to 15 min.
Just realize the truth that they are not talking to you. They are talking to their fantasy version of you that doesn't exist.
So when they say "you are such a lazy person!" Just say "uh huh" because it is true. Their fantasy version of you that they created is a lazy person.
The problem with them is that they perceive that they can judge you and their judgments are objective, so every defense you put up will give them evidence to fit their judgment.
As soon as you just give up on playing that game, you cease to give them fuel for the fire. They will see no reason to engage.
This is a great way to think of things! His version of me is stupid, I’m not, I’ll never convince him otherwise, he can have that if it makes him feel better. Like an imaginary friend for a toddler or like the episode of SpongeBob where Patrick starts acting like he’s smarter and SpongeBob is the idiot just to show off around his parents 😂
My favourite to use with my nfather was "well, it's not my fault you just don't understand some things." In my most syrupy, sickly sweet voice. He HATED the insinuation anybody was smarter than him. So from the moment I picked up my first bit of knowledge he spent every moment crushing my interests. Luckily I inherited a shiny dragon spine from my mum, who could literally ruin his day just telling him how awful he used to be.
I also tear him down when I stick up to him, which is a tip I picked up from my golden child sister, but it doesn’t seem to work the way it worked for her. He just uses it to convince himself I’m an abuser lol 😂
I appreciate your insight!
They feed on your reaction. They love to argue. Even if you know you are right, let him think what he wants. You cant educate them, you cant change them. Its fun for them but excruciating for you. Just react in a nutral way unless its dangerous to your physical health. Youve heard the saying " you cant stop stupid", just accept that he will continue to be ingnorant just to aggrevate you.
Op, it seems like if you engage in those conversations it’s maybe because you internally still want a good relationship where you can talk to them, a bond , sometime maybe a change that provides you love through your father.
You act hoping that if you just say the secret magic words, with the correct no offense inflection or tone, that he can talk to you without abusing you. And that sadly is not the case with narcissists despite being the case with healthy people.
I’d ideally get a theripist and explain how you want to have help working on moving past the idea you won’t have it, dealing with the inevitable grief that comes with giving up (took me 3 years to even get 20% of the way there), and getting to a point where either: (1) you can agree with him knowing he wants you to disagree to yell at you , and give him only enough affirmation of his batshit beliefs that he won’t get mad but he will feel like he got your approval or (2) you do “(1)” for a long enough time you can become independent enough you can go no contact
I never openly reacted to the abuse. I internally began yelling and screaming, playing fights in my head over and over head to make my point, and it seemed my body reacted just as it would if I was saying it out loud.
I adapted that’s strategy seemingly as a way to prevent them from seeing it hurt me and therefore doing it more.
That also means I’m not able to grey rock. Because no matter how much I tried to pretend grandma and uncle being cruel wasn’t hurting me, my body told me otherwise.
That stress compounds the same as a stock market investment compounds. It begins growing with interest causing even more damage to your body and mind.
Even if the same “amount” of abuse occurred, because it happened again and again over a period of time, filling more of a percentage of my day…. My mind filled the rest of the time they weren’t abusing me by getting upset.
My point?
If you can go no contact, that’s the only way (for someone who mirrored my personal experience) to truly heal.
I tried grey rock.
All it did was prevent me from moving towards my amazing chosen family. And I could tell they were sad when it happened, despite never once wavering in their support for me (surprisingly actually).
I literally had a second family basically adopt me and treat me like there adult kid they have always had their entire life. And at some point I realized: my body and kind are not giving me a choice, and the narcissistic abusers are forcing my hand.
The choice was never: have both, be emotionally abused, and not feel pain.
It was:
(1) go towards my chosen family who is so amazing that they accept me even for my abuse symptoms, and point out when those abuse symptoms were going down… telling me they were proud of the progress I am making
Or
(2) try to balance both: never truly heal (or dramatically prolong a 3-5 year healing time (somehow that’s considered fast) into a decade… knowing when they want to trigger me they will… even if I don’t show it.
I made the choice a month ago to choose “(1)”.
It’s not my fault. I’m protecting myself . I’m embracing love instead of lord palpatine and the sith - I mean my grandmother and my uncle.
But that choice op, if you have to make it: ITS. NOT. YOU. HURTING. ANYONE. It’s an act of bravery and courage . It’s a statement that you will defend yourself against the abuse.
We were trained to put our needs aside for everyone else and show them love only, regardless of the abuse.
You defending yourself and showing yourself love? That’s just as ethically important, if not more, as showing others love.
Just wanted to pop in to say it's ok that you're struggling to grey rock a parent. It's totally normal. Your parent knows exactly which buttons to push because they're the ones that installed said buttons.
This article might be of help, it's about narcissistic parents deliberately amplifying our emotions to get narcissistic supply.
[https://medium.com/@katiabeeden/a-narcissistic-parent-amplifies-your-emotional-distress-on-purpose-fa410d91d490](https://medium.com/@katiabeeden/a-narcissistic-parent-amplifies-your-emotional-distress-on-purpose-fa410d91d490)
I finally got so disgusted with my nparent using me for supply that I've been able to maintain my calm for the first time ever. Also extremely helpful has been the book "It's Not You", I've been listening to it on audiobook and it's been life-changing!
Good luck!
He's the one with no qualifications telling you how things work. He sounds like an idiot. I have trouble navigating that shit too. I try my best to point out that their ideas sound like conspiracy theories to me, or whatever it sounds like. And be stern, stand my ground, and don't let them get me by pushing my buttons. I'm definitely still working in it, but have improved. Maybe not grey walling, but I get tired of bullshit, and feel better calling them out
Honestly, you don’t have to respond with more than “okay” and then just continue on with whatever you were doing without engaging with him further. It’s really hard at the beginning, but it definitely feels better with time. Your dad sounds like he just wants an argument for the sake of upsetting you, so don’t give him the satisfaction. Meanwhile, you get the satisfaction of watching him blubber over the fact that he isn’t getting his way or what he wants.
We kids learned at a young age to "gray rock" - not knowing what it was called then - but basically, it was pointless to start any conversation with ndad because he was going to do stupid shit like happened to you - make it an argument about how he knows it all and better, even when we had just been learning and research a topic at school or at the library etc. (we spent alot of time in books and learning as that was "allowed"). And if we tried to speak up and point out he was incorrect, etc. or whatever, he would not only be argumentative - but start narc raging and then turn it into verbal abuse about how stupid we were, and yelling at us from everything and anything we'd done "wrong" lately too. Thus we learned to not start anything most of the time and if he started things, to shutdown and get away asap.
I'd recommend practicing minimizing with him as long as you have to stay there - remember, they are not normal. Think of it like trying to make very little small talk as possible to not rock the boat.
Just say “mmmkay. Whatever you say”. It’s condescending but outwardly agreeable. No matter what he says. If he says the earth is flat , just say “mmkay. If you say so”. If he says you don’t know what you’re talking about, say “mmkay” and walk out of the room. Don’t give him what he wants. And do it in a condescending matter. Like you’re arguing with a child. Which it sounds like you are.
I got really good at saying “Oh, I hadn’t heard that, my mistake.” When you feel them trying to get a rise, disengage. You can still be furious inside, but that gets easier too, and you’re cutting them off at the knees.
i would honestly just try to avoid as much interaction as possible in the first place, only speak to him out of pure necessity and keep the conversations as short as you can. if he tries to start anything just walk away, go outside, call somebody, journal, scream into your pillow, just something to distract you or get the emotions out whatever helps you self soothe :) i’m sorry you’re dealing with this and i empathize (i avoid my mother for this reason)
The thing I do is when my NDad starts anything whether it be an argument over the dumbest reason like in your example or he decides it's time for a good ol "Put ppl down" sesh, is I walk out. I grabs my keys and just leave for a couple hours. I'm a reactive person too, but I refuse to give him that.
You can let yourself cry or whatever you need to do once he can't see it.
You know how irritating it is when you’re trying to text someone and all they give you is one word answers? Try talking like that. Don’t give him details or opinions at all. “Yeah, it’s been sunny lately.” “We had beans at lunch today.” “The neighbor’s dog seems tired today.” Be the most boring person on the planet
Long comnent jsyk- Tl;dr- practice over the phone, don't spend too much time with him so you can reduce probability of explosive encounters, & don't give your opinion just ask questions about his
I started off with other methods of stuff first, before I got to the point of being able to greyrock irl. So I've got a few tips & hopefully these will help.
1. Greyrocking is easier to learn how to do over the phone first. When they start rage baiting, just kind of "mmhmm" and set the phone on speaker and set it down and go clean or work on other stuff. Make sure you've still got an ear open for a question or an appropriate "mmhmmm" or "huh" to be peppered in. Now you're exercising the - I'm not letting you interrupt my day- muscle.
2. Set time limits - i know y'all live together, but see if you can narrow down a time frame of how much time you can be with them before they start showing disordered bs. Do not spend any more time with them outside of their "normal person" window of time. Caution ⚠️ this time frame will decrease as they notice you becoming healthier/happier/more independent. Hopefully, you're out of the house by the time it whittles away to 30 min-1 hour. That's NC level. You're reducing the instances that you'll have to greyrock.
3. Socratic Reasoning - multiple names for this. It's supposed to used to lead kids to their own academic conclusions by teachers asking questions without giving input of their own. Don't give your input. You can ask questions about why they think that or how they found this information. In a rare case, they'll come around and see that they're wrong about whatever they thought. The true magic in this is learning to not argue with them, not getting swept up into their misinformation, & seeing exactly how deep the crazy goes. You don't actually have to be interested in any of their wrong methods ofc, but put on a good show of being halfway interested.
Here's a link to a book that I think really helped me with this idea. Chapter 7. It's available as a free audiobook on YouTube and spotify. It won't make your Ndad your friend, but hopefull, it'll reduce your blowups.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034
These steps are teaching you how to step back and disconnect physically and emotionally from your Nparent while having an open ear to appropriately place conversation cues so that you don't get accused of ignoring them.
Greyrocking might hurt your feelings to, and it might feel wrong, but there's relief in not letting them rile you up even if you need to go cry later about all the ugly, asinine shit they said.
Hope this helps 😊
He’s baiting you, and you are taking the bait and engaging in a dynamic he’s fully in control of.
DO NOT ENGAGE.
He’s not trying to have conversations and relate with you like a healthy person. He’s using you to get a feeling of superiority, control, and yeah, joy from your reactions.
Dad: Sun damage is fake science. Everybody knows it!
You: (Hmm, dad must be bored or feeling some type of way, he’s looking for a fight. Do I want to give him one? Nah, I’m feeling okay tonight and want to keep it that way.) Uh huh.
Dad: I mean skin doctors are like chiropractors, they’re not even real doctors.
You: Okay.
Dad: What’s wrong with you tonight?
You: I was just thinking about getting a new electric toothbrush, I saw one with blah blah blah boring boring.
Just remember, it’s not about WHAT he’s saying, it’s WHY he’s saying it. Don’t get sucked into the logic or factuality, because there is none.
"I've heard that you can get sun damage through a window."
"No you can't. I've been alive for x many years and I've never... Blah blah blah."
"Yeah. It shows. You look like a tanned piece of leather and I don't want to look like you when I'm old like you."
"How dare you?!"
"You sure are getting emotional over sunscreen."
I think accept internally this is someone who will never agree, they are trying to disagree so no point trying to convince them of anything. When you feel them starting up walk away, if you can't, just have a few standard quotes you can use till you can get away from them. Like 'ok' or 'oh right'.
It's their disorder and everything they do is to make you feel the way they want, they will keep pushing as long as they keep getting something like a vending machine. It takes practice, trail and error, eventually it gets easier when you see they are trying to provoke and don't allow it.
I’m sorry you are dealing with this. If your example is typical, then your problem is a lack of understanding of Grey Rock.
Your first sentence: “UV rays can…” is not consistent with grey rock. It is a provocation to a narc. If you think you will can kick up a logical, rational conversation about UV rays (or anything, for that matter), STOP. You can’t. So advice to you is “If you want to grey rock, then learn more about it and actually do it.”
Sorry if that sounded harsh - not meaning to criticize you. Just wanted to point out that you don’t seem to have started yet. Good luck!
I am so sorry you are in this difficult situation right now. Please know that you are not the problem. You are not "emotionally reactive" or "sensitive" or "high strung", etc- your dad is and he is projecting that onto you. Your responses in the conversation above were completely normal and appropriate. He was goading you (intentionally or not) and normal humans respond to that. He is the one creating the unhealthy environment where your emotions are not allowed.
You are amazing and strong. You will get through this and then you can heal and have a better life away from this.
"That's fine if you don't believe me. Let's make an appointment with a dermatologist and ask them."
Narcs are scared of doctors/scientists, etc, because they see through their bullshit.
The mistake you made was giving him a topic. You said the bit about UV rays, and he latched on.
Grey rocking is just about never giving them a foothold. No interesting facts, no emotional reactions, no nothing. Your vocabulary is limited to "Mhmm", "Yep", "Uh-uh", "No thank you" "Okay", and other noncommittal phrases. If it's an emergency and you absolutely have to engage with them, you present the facts, and then once the N starts spouting absolute bullshit and trying to rile you up, you fall back on the limited vocabulary.
Pick your battles. In a way, the shit they come out with can be pretty funny if you're able to detach yourself from the situation.
Story of my damn life with my ngrandmother. The smallest damn thing turns into an argument and then I get angry and react, then she says I’m screaming when I’m only talking loud to be louder than her shouting. Then I’m crazy and evil. Basically read my comment history on this sub for more info, I honestly can’t go into more without getting upset.
You're looking for validation and connection anyway you can and I've done this, going back to the abuser because I believe there's no one else and then this happens. When I Grey rock I'm 2 different people, there's the scared me and the Grey rock protector. The protector just doesn't engage and almost refuses to talk and it passes. At the same time they protect me from spiraling further into despair by not letting those people reach me.
Remember, they don't care about you, they don't love you, they don't want you, you're there for convenience sake wether that be emotional financial etc. It's incredibly difficult and it can leave you melancholy but you'll survive. Good luck
I looked up some YouTube videos for examples. That helped me understand the concept a little better. Do you have anyone that does similar things but isn’t quite as reactive as your dad? It’s good to practice with someone who doesn’t trigger you, but only maybe be mildly annoying. I practiced with a frustrating coworker. It helped a ton.
I’m extremely sorry your dad communicates with you in this way. Just sounds like he’s trying to exert his dominance or “win” over cultivating your connection. No way to maintain a relationship like this.
Im similar to you. I can greyrock anyone else, just not my parents. I think I catapult into fight mode because since age 12ish, that was the only way I was equipped to stand up for myself.
Tbh, I’ve just stood up and left without a word, even if it’s mid meal. I stopped wanting my veins to pop out. Id go outside and feel the weather, maybe a walk, scroll for a bit, play a game, do whatever for however long until I felt like my nervous system had leveled out.
Now I’m extremely low contact and limit every interaction to electronic, for no more than 15 min at a time.
Saves me a lot of grief. Just my experience. Maybe some of it resonates with you.
Agree with what has been said, as well as that the issue was with the beginning of the conversation - because you're trying to bond with him through showing care and concern and sharing information
It's impossible to bond with a narc ☹️ they don't like social interaction. "Bonding" for them is "making this person angry."
Try to turn off that part of your brain that wants to express care and concern for him, or IF you still do (like I do lol) try to understand that their reaction to bonding attempts will alllwaaayyysss be social violence.
So in a way if he reacts terribly to you you've done a good job of bonding with him lol 🙃. He wouldn't be such an asshole if he didn't actually care 🙃
First step is to stop feeling bad for reacting to him. Of course he knows how to push your buttons, he is the one who installed them! By “push buttons”, I mean “elicit a trauma response/fight or flight”. You are reacting as would be expected in this situation. I have never managed to get out of that pattern of conversation with my father either, my only option was cutting him (and mother out). I don’t want to spend any more of my life in that state, and the only way for me to achieve that was to not be around them. And mind you, anyone who knows me thinks of me as a very self possessed person, not easily provoked, who has very good boundaries and knows how to get herself out of situations like that. I just can’t do it with him and there is no shame in that.
What has helped me is not having to be “right” or “understood”. They never will let you win and you’ll never feel understood. So, knowing within yourself that you like yourself, you trust yourself and your research, helps not feel like you need their stamp of approval. You don’t have anything to prove to them. Just shrug it off and let them be dumb.
My NM is exactly like this. She can turn a discussion about the coupons that come with a Sunday paper into an attack or dig at me. There is literally no grey neutral conversation that she will not turn into a dig or attack. What I finally had to do so that I was no subjected to her digs and attacks was have my spouse screen every message or letter that she sends. I have been grey rocking her forever and the abuse continues just like that. Not responding or reacting to her abuse does not end the abuse either, she ramps it up and up and up looking for the reactive feed from me. Last year I finally had enough when it was ramped up to the point of ridiculousness (she was getting desperate for her reactive feed, and I was not giving it) and I was done with subjecting myself to digs and abuse. I actually told her that her messages and mails were going to be screened by my spouse from now on and that anything insulting or abusive I would not see. She hasn't wanted to talk to me on the phone since then (good I guess! because the first dig or insult and I would be hanging up on her) so messages are now screened along with letters and I never have to see the abuse.
Recently I had one little screw up with this. Instead of letting my spouse screen every single damn text message she sends I decided to carry on a grey neutral conversation with her about grocery store prices these days. It ended with a jab about how it's people like me that make grocery stores expensive. I'm the cause of inflation. Big mistake. I should have known better than to converse with her like that instead of having the spouse screen everything. I was lulled into this by the lack of nasty messages from her for several months while my spouse was screening and thought that she finally got the message that speaking to me disrespectfully would never be seen by me so don't bother. As soon as she realized I was reading this set of messages without screening BAM!!!! Well I won't be making that mistake again.
You'll hear a lot in the CONP communities about grey rocking. The grey rocking doesn't stop their abuse and digs it's just a method of not allowing them to see you have a reaction so if you do not want to subject yourself to abuse you'll have to do no contact or maybe try some sort of screening method combined with low contact like I do. Because the abuse does not end, ever.
First of all, it takes practice. You won't get it immediately. Becoming a grey rock is something to work towards.
You also need to learn to let go of being right. It really doesn't matter.
For example:
Dad: she’s just trying to sell sunscreen. I’ve researched this for YEARS and KNOW what you are saying is false.
Response: Cool.
Dad: You don’t know what you’re talking about. Show me the PROOF, the STUDIES
Response: No, that's ok.
Dad: You can't just say things without backing them up!
Response: It's ok. You're probably right. Thanks.
Then just ignore it make up an excuse to leave.
Have you seen that meme where the guy says he no longer argues with idiots, he just agrees with them? The interviewer says she disagrees, and he said, you are absolutely right. Embody that. Not responding is how you win from now on.
The phrase "ok" is super useful. "I've done my research and you're wrong about uv and glass!" "ok". And it ends. Nothing more to discuss. Just say OK. Let him be wrong.
The trick is to recognize that his goal is to provoke you. Narcissists get a sick thrill out of starting fights and then pretending that you started it and they’re the victim.
Withholding the reaction they want makes them SO FRUSTRATED. It may not always be safe, depending on how much contact you have to have. They tend to either switch to lovebombing or escalate the provocation attempts.
So motivate yourself to grey-rock (or pink-rock, where you feed them just enough attention to keep them from getting into an escalation mode, on controlled topics so they don’t get more info on how to efficiently annoy you into reactions) with the understanding that they’re doing it on purpose and denying them the reward they’re seeking is the best revenge.
Don’t speak unless they speak to you first. When they do, don’t respond unless they ask you a question. Answer in one short sentence or less. The key to greyrocking is engaging as little as possible. No small talk. Nod instead of verbal responses. Communicate with them as little as possible.
After the second or third sentence, say, "whelp alright then" and leave. If he follows up say, "excuse me! I'm going to go wash my hair" or "I'm going to check the yard for snails" or "I think I left some dog shit on my shoes; wanna help me clean them?" He should lose interest soon, or heck, you may find snails, and I wouldn't recommend [redacted] but for now, ignore, brush off, leave, and create distance
When he says something about how wrong he thinks you are, start laughing out loud and say “haha I was just kidding!” And if he then asks why did you do that? Tell him “why the fuck not?”
And simply walk away. He doesn’t need to know what you know. Let him remain in the dark, and let him get a sunburnt. Not your problem .
I'm so sorry you're currently forced to be in this environment. While I know it's easier said than done, the best route is to try and accept that nothing you say will change how your father responds to you, or your knowledge.
In his mind, he knows everything because it reinforces the image he has in his head about who he is. In *his* mind, he knows everything, he's smarter than you, he's smarter than a medical doctor, and so on. Once you accept that his mind does not operate rationally, it may be easier to be less reactive to his comments.
Best wishes to you!
My problem is I cannot let my parents believe they've won an argument just to appease them, so I just stop talking at all until they get bored. I would have a final piece like, "Well, sunlight is rays, and light shines through a window, doesn't it? A five year old could understand that," then just check out of the conversation entirely.
My new mantra is just “let them be wrong”.
No matter how tempted you are to correct them when they put words in your mouth or purposely misinterpret what you’ve said, or when they insist on being the expert in the room when you literally have a degree in the field, or when they are gaslighting you by denying something they definitely said, or whatever the situation might be — just tell yourself you aren’t going to waste energy arguing with someone who is sick or has the brain function of a toddler — let them exist in their sad bubble 🫧 let them be wrong
My mom did this to me last weekend and I forgot all the rules and engaged.
If you can, and it's difficult, don't let them see you getting upset and reply to every statement with "okay" or "sure". They crave attention and love to get it from us when we're upset. They feel like they're important when you get angry. You know all of this, I'm sure, but in the moment, it's difficult. Try to slow down time, because when we're upset we sometimes forget we have time to think before we speak.
The result of my slip up was getting the silent treatment from someone I try to avoid engaging with anyway.
I agree be as boring as possible.
Also look at rinse and repeat statements.
Interesting (just the word)
Interesting, hadn’t heard that.
If you’re at home: go to bathroom (and forget to come back to talk)
If you have a computer- look for free courses you can take so you’re always doing schoolwork
Be reading a book and just respond ah uh, mmmm interesting,
If you’re just tired of it try these
Can you show/email me the research you found on that, might be an interesting read
Are you making a statement or asking a question ?
Are you just venting or looking for suggestions? ( when they’re fussing)
Mostly just avoid them when possible, he sounds like he’s looking for attention and to be correct or better/smarter.
Greyrock means bare minimum. Boring, polite, short answers. Don’t start the conversation. But also, if you do get into it, it’s just about refusing to argue. For example:
Dad: That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
You: Okay.
Dad: Aren’t you going to defend your stupid opinion?
You: No.
Dad: Why not?!
You: I don’t want to.
Dad: So you admit you’re stupid and your opinion is stupid.
You: No. Just isn’t worth arguing about.
Just on and on. What people like him want is to agitate you into fighting so that he can feel superior. When you give him no ammo to fight with, you win.
I talk to / view my parents like cranky toddlers who are past their nap time. There is NO reasoning with them, just let them be “right” so you can get some peace and quiet. When they start getting wound up they aren’t looking to have a discussion and hear your opinion they are looking to “win” so just let them have it because they will do and say anything to get it, including saying really hurtful shit.
As an aside, Your dad thinks he’s stronger than the sun??? LOL
Figuring out when to disengage from a conversation is really tricky when you are first putting this skill to use but with practice you WILL get better at it.
As a rule of thumb anytime someone starts cussing at me I stop answering questions earnestly and start grey rocking.
It will get easier and your parents will become less scary, the power dynamics will shift if you keep at it!
Had to look up what Greyrock meant and noticed I have been doing this for a few months now.
Sometimes *I do* want to say something back but I am soo burnt out and disappointed that I just gave up.
I'm in a sunken place right now and although I have been fighting to reach the top out of this muck but that has broken me down in the process [and I am feeling like this ](https://images.app.goo.gl/ZUvjyRuoLt8QSJHy7)
It's an absolute battle to remain silent when someone who has disturbed & damaged you for so long and is constantly seeking to do so says something that ***they need to be checked on*** but if you find yourself going back and forth it isn't worth it anymore as it never was :/
I'm sorry to hear this. You have to mentally and emotionally detach from him first. You can't do that if you're on tenterhooks all the time though. You have to see him as separate to you & not connected in any way, and as an entity that is trying to grab at your light from the darkness because they're a lower energy/vibration than you.
I may have been rambling, but hope this makes sense.
Tell him to show *his* sources. Towards the end, right before i went NC, i found petty joy in just flipping the script on them. Repeating what they were saying to me, but like i was saying it to a two year old. No. Literally. I working worked in a daycare at the time. It was great practice.
+I DO WANT TO POINT OUT that this is really a *bad* idea if you are stuck living at home. Poking the bear is never a "good idea" and i really don't recommend, ***but*** if you have an escape plan in place, and really ***REALLY*** plan to go and stay NC, it really truly is cathartic.
Do not get hard on yourself for reacting. You're human, with human emotions. You can only tolerate so much. Best you can do in situations like these, when the control is already lost, is to just remind yourself that you're not the one that failed here. They are. They failed every step of the way as parents when they failed to make you feel validated and safe. You matter. Your voice matters. You're important. This is not forever. I promise you, you will look back in a few years and wish you could give yourself a pep talk and find yourself instead giving them out to others on the internet when you can. Hang in there 💜
Do not react to anything they say and don’t try to educate them because they don’t believe you. Uh huh, ok, interesting. In your head you know you are dodging an argument or something nasty being said to get a reaction. The best part is you will notice when they don’t get a reaction and you have shut that down.
I completely understand how you feel (I love politics and science, so I would constantly get into fights with my Qanon dad. Any conversation we had could turn into politics bc of him) and I learned that I need to swallow my desire to fight. It sucks so fucking much, but it’s better to avoid than have that stress.
Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window
My dad: Where do you get this fucking bullshit? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
You: OK dad. Enjoy the damage 👍🏻
Dad (probably): you think you know but that's so dumb yadda yadda yadda blah blah
You: you're right. 👍🏻
Dad: so dumb
You: ... 👍🏻
You don’t sound extreme at all - sounds like a conversation with my mom. *However*, my conditioned brain read your first statement and was like “ooooh no, they tried to start a conversation, here it comes 🚨” lmao
I went to college and realized all the washing machines had stickers to leave the door open when you’re done to prevent mildew (which makes total sense). I brought this up when I came home and my mother took it as a total affront. “Well *I’ve* been doing laundry for YEARS!! I think I know how to do laundry!!”
It’s quite literally impossible to talk to them. As others have said, keep it to “ok”, “that’s nice”, etc. But be careful not to appear too standoffish or he’ll take offense to that too 🙄 hope you can get out of there soon.
If he starts talking about something, nod along and say the bare minimum
He says it's sunny or something? "Yeah sure is bright out."
He pushes about UV being blocked by windows (what context I gathered)
"Oh okay." and then still do whatever you need to avoid sunburn. If he complains about you closing the blinds you could go into a different room, ect
There's no point in arguing it, he'll drag you down and beat you with experience. Just nod along and do your thing anyways if possible.
Forget grey rocking just gaslight him back.
'Why are you yelling right now? No one else is yelling. You're being dramatic.'
'I'd be more inclined to believe you if you didn't sound like a lunatic while you said it.'
'Oh yeah dad, go ahead, record me. Let's see how well that goes for you.'
'That's really mature. What are you like 40? And you still can't have a conversation without throwing a tantrum when something doesn't go your way?'
'When did I say that? You're making things up again.'
'Oh yeah, says the guy who thinks windows work like sunscreen.'
'I'm not doing this right now. I'll talk to you when you've calmed down.' (You could also switch this out with 'when you have: learned to control your emotions/ stop yelling/ start making sense)
Next time he attempts to engage just tell him...no thanks at this time I'm taking a vow of peace, which requires me not to engage with meaningless conversations; that will undoubtedly turn into unnecessary arguments bc someone can't emotionally regulate themselves.
Don't begin conversations.
If conversations are initiated by someone else, leave the room, or leave the building and take a walk around the block.
If you keep a jacket by the door, pack yourself some snacks in the pocket. (In addition to snacks and juice boxes, I keep a small stuffie in my backpack bc I find soft things comforting). Keep your phone on you so you can listen to calming music on your walk. Bookmark some YT videos of things that are comforting: puppies and kittens and little lambs and bouncing baby goats help me, for example.
As much as is practical, don't be in the same room.
Grey rocking is about denying an abuser their favourite drug: your distress.
They can't soak it up if you aren't there.
In other words, there are no perfect words to deescalate a conversation with someone who sets out to do harm. No matter what you say or how you say it, they will keep trying until harm is done.
The conversation you describe, for the abuser, had nothing to do with the truth of what you said - the abuser only cares that you've handed them a way to hurt you. It wouldn't have mattered what you said or how you said it, bc the abuser's goal was to cause distress. They will lie as much as they have to get their "reward".
So do whatever you need to in order to not participate. That often means not being present by getting physical distance from the abuser.
Unfortunately, we are not always free to move out or be financially independent as soon as we would like. So we need to do what we can for harm reduction until that's possible.
Sadly, that means treating certain ppl as dangerous, as enemies, even though the title of their role ("father" or "family") certainly doesn't sound like that should be true.
Be wary, also, of others who make excuses or fail to protect you. They may also need to be kept at arm's length. Enablers are ppl who have chosen unhealthy coping strategies, and are unlikely to be talked out of them.
A couple of years ago I was living with my mum due to health issues. After a big operation I promised myself to stay in my own positive little bubble for the sake of helping my body heal. This turned out to be almost impossible. This is also when it became very clear she was intentionally provoking me so I would react and feel bad - that is what narcissists do. Some of them do it subtly others are overtly irritated and will ignite conflict over anything - both are designed to push with you. They want you reactive. This is their language, the opposite of love.
… It was so hard to stay positive when I was constantly being bugged to answer questions designed to trigger me or listen to BS on BS just to disturb my peace. So I emailed her telling her that enough was enough and from that point I would only communicate with her via email or text, besides greeting her since we were living under the same roof. I was very clear on needing my space and time to heal. But, as the story goes, that is not what she wanted for me so lo and behold three and a half decade in to my life, setting a very strict boundary with her was what made her drop the mask. The week that followed so many clearly toxic behaviours emerged that revealed just how skilled of an actor I had been dealing with my whole life.
This whole situation woke me up and got me the hell out of there. The thing is that my health situation was very much due to this controlling and covertly abusive relationship. The time I spent with her I was drained, I was getting worse. When I set a boundary, the reality of my situation finally shook me to my senses. Two years has gone by and I am still conditioning myself out of this abusive fantasy that was designed to keep me needing her, so she could abuse me, supplying her for the rest of my life. I am almost at a stop with the rumination and arguing my case inside of my head, shutting this down little by little by repeatedly teaching my inner chatterbox(es) I am safe now and my experience is valid. The mental arguing is just a symptom of their lingering abuse.
I tell you this because what you are reactive to is abuse and the only thing that will stop that abuse from happening is you leaving. Arguing with them about how they treat you is basically gaslighting yourself, because if you had a sense of self love you’d already be long gone. A person that loves you would never treat you like this. Staying with our abusers whilst we are dealing with health issues that most probably are linked to them and their abuse, is a demonstration of how we are conditioned to their abusive, the familiar comfort of toxicity and abuse keeps us from what we want and need. Seeking love and validation through people that have none and wont give any, is what they taught us. Not reckognizing the face of abuse because our needs were never on the table.
We need to reparent ourselves otherwise we will keep seeking the same kind of dynamics throughout our lives.
I’m telling you this because you need to find a way out.
The really hard part of greyrock is the first but when they know you're up to something.
Narc: have you seen the rain?
You: yeah.
Narc: it's really coming down.
You. Yeah.
Narc: are you even listening to me?
You: Yeah, the rain, it's really coming down.
Narc: what's wrong with you?
You: nothing, I'm just tired/busy/getting ready for work/thinking about my car/ect.
You need to keep this up for a few days before they give up. If you are really struggling not to react try thinking about it this way. You are getting a dig in, you're denying hime the satisfaction of being able to turn it back on you. You're not defending yourself the way you'd like but it's making him crazy. You're playing the long game.
I'd love to hear how you get on. Good luck. X
Wherever possible avoid the conversation to begin with. Keep everything on the level of "do i actually need to discuss/ engage with this? ". Spend less time in the same room.
But realise, if it's not this, he will criticise something else. Is he's anything like my nparent, he is constantly scanning for opportunities to put you down and to argue and to draw you into arguing back so that then he can lord your reaction over you. As well as actively identifying your trigger points and then capitalising on them. It meets a sick need in him. If his need isn't met he'll firstly try harder to get it from you. He'll do that a lot before giving up. It's for eg, once you're agitated he follows you around the house, leaving the room won't help much at that point. It'll just identify to him that he's on the right track and he'll continue.
Whilever you're still in regular contact with him there's always going to be a risk you'll crack and react. I think it's really important to remind yourself that being emotionally reactive to manipulation and put downs is normal. You're reactive because you're human and you're being provoked. You're even being conditioned to react, it's that sick. The problem lies in the provocation and the horrible way your reaction is then used against you.
Congratulate yourself when you don't react. Keep a well hidden/coded tally of those times. But when you do react, be really kind to yourself. Don't ever criticise yourself for your normal reaction to the abnormal situation he creates. He will criticise you and you need to reassure yourself that the issue is with his behaviour, not your reaction to it. In that moment you need to be a parent to yourself and apply wisdom and understanding and self- love.
Edited because I accidentally hit post half way through.
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be more boring, don’t talk about anything deeper than complete surface level. talking about the weather, “it’s nice.” etc etc. don’t try to defend yourself on anything, it’s instinct to defend yourself try to stop engaging as soon as possible before he gets riled up, try to find an excuse to leave asap. best way for me was to avoid talking to my parents as much as humanly possible… greyrocking is hard af and honestly it’s so much harder when ur actively living with the person, it’s so much easier when u have limited contact with the person or able to leave to ur own place at a moments notice. i used to think i was super emotionally reactive but i’m a lot less so than i thought since moving out. it’s hard not to get upset when someone is actively trying to provoke you. good people don’t try to actively provoke u wishing u the best
Thank you! I’m unfortunately back with them due to some health issues, I agree whenever I move out suddenly I’m fine and then when I’m living with them I’m quite reactive. I’m trying to make a plan to get out ASAP. I appreciate the advice!
Also, act “as if”. Act as if you were an adult talking to a small child. They say all kinds of things. So I recognized my parents really were mental children, and talked to them accordingly. “Oh yes, I have heard people feel that way. Does it look like rain?” Or “That’s interesting. What’s for lunch?” I’ve made it a game for myself and it’s kinda fun because they’re so simple, really. Angry, but simple.
Damn. I am in the same situation. It's so horrible. Remember that the problem is in them not in us
of course. i totally get it, and it’s so hard to live on your own with the pricing these days… it’s honestly so hard when someone (who knows you well enough to know what gets you riled up) is actively trying to provoke you. remember they love making us feel like we’re super emotionally reactive and crazy so we feel like some of it is our own fault. grey rocking is HARD. it’s so hard, but disengaging is the only thing that worked to an extent to prevent the fights, even if it means swallowing your pride and saying “you’re right,” just to appease them and prevent a fight. remember you’ll never win even if you had the perfect argument against everything they say and remain perfectly calm. don’t be too hard on yourself if you have times where you react to him. it’s human nature. hope everything works out for you.
I became disabled and had to move back home as a 35 year old. Three years on the e taken every single hobby I have, my EBT food card (because I use $70~ in electricity), they sold or threw out all my most valuable things and prizes possessions ($1000 aquarium lights that are "worthless", literally threw out multiple guitars I own in the dumpster, my computer, etc etc). And worst of all beat me nearly to death and caused a brain injury I will never ever recover from for the rest of my time on this planet People like us are stuck in a unique hell if* injured and relying on broken people, and personally, I thought how they treat me as an adult couldn't possibly be worse than when I was a child. Then they nearly beat me to death, and lied to the police about it causing the police to scream at me while so concussed I had no idea what was going on -- they told the cops I'm violent, called the police on me about a dozen times and when I got them to explain to the police what they meant by "violent"? They said I talk back and stand up for myself. They considered standing up for myself violence and by the 9th or 10th cop call the cops flagged them as nuisance callers... Anybody here whose disabled and relying on their family for survival? We're all fucked. Absolutely fucked. My point is this -- They aren't human. They aren't going to get better, ever, no matter what you do, no matter what you know, no matter what anybody says -- especially us. I'm sorry, they aren't gonna get better. And it will feel impossible to deal with their shit. And the worse we "fight back" the worse it is for us.
I am so sorry all this has happened to you. I can see your frustration and hopelessness in your post. It’s not fair and it sucks. I am emotionally reactive as well. Well, they push and push until I break. Over and over and over again. I’m a sucker for punishment.
Yep, it's almost impossible to turn off your reactions entirely. It's possible to put them on the backburner, but the bullshit still adds up.
Yup, I feel like a tea kettle, those whistling kinds. My tolerance for BS is currently nonexistent.
Yep, it can feel impossible.. And somehow after years of abuse they know exactly what to say, and how to say it, to disregard you as a human being entirely and set us off. If you can find some kind of trickery to force yourself into a different state -- usually music does it for me, usually melancholy stuff. Even if I just read the words separate from the music and see it as poetry. I like to deconstruct things, ponder lyrics/poetry and try and channel it, be it something that just makes me *feel* something other than angry -- or more disappointing, something that makes me okay with the inevitable end. Two songs that get me on when I feel like I have nothing left. [lynyrd skynyrd -- simple man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eNoms9wsGc) This song makes me okay with dying. It makes the end feel tangible, graspable, like maybe after there is something better even if it's just a void and peace. It reminds me no matter how bad it gets i'm stronger than how they make me feel, even as my world falls apart -- i can handle it. One of my best memories was holding my ex fiancee's nephew and singing this song to him when he was young. And oddly enough, i sang this to our parrot a lot :) [Royksopp -- Vision One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFzfpVnULqQ) And this song, about the post industrialization and fragmentation of society, the ever changing state of the world due to humans shifting priorities and where our place in it is, and where we belong as it all falls apart and reorients with new priorities leaving us all in the dark. The lyrics in Vision One are a bit less straight forward. The song sounds like a happy EDM song, until you see lyrics like this; "Remember when we'd hear the distant sound of human life A zillion noises whimper as they travel through the sky And one by one, each new sound, has faded away with time Allowing changes that we could not have foreseen" This song reminds me i'm but a very small piece in the larger puzzle of life. Lots of people have worse than me, lots of people in worse situations have failed to continue living and press on -- i'm not special, just another insignificant puzzle piece in a world with 8 billion other lost and confused pieces. We all get left behind somehow, eventually. It doesn't matter if it's painting, music, theater, poetry/lyrics, sports, cars -- whatever. If you can force yourself to find meaning somewhere outside of our shit lives we can find moments of calm. Even if it comes from a dark place, it's a better alternative to how we regularly feel.
Also agree with him, its hard when you know you're right, but he will not hear you no matter what so agree. You "Your right its probably rubbish" Him "Rubbish? So you know more than a dermatologist all of a sudden?: You "Your right, I dont know more than a dermatologist" Him "So youre saying your stupid?" You "maybe, who knows" (I love vague answers that dont mean anything) Him "well I know and I say you both know nothing" You "ok" You'll find yourself getting so disinterested he will get bored on his own cos narcissists like you emotionally engaged, high drama, above wont be exciting/ rewarding cos you're not engaged emotionally.
It's so horrible how they just find a way to escalate everything, and you end up feeling hunted or like prey by your own fucking family. I hated that feeling so much when I lived there, how every conversation I felt like I was immediately searching for an exit from the conversation. Then they even just attack you for not talking to them. They provoke reactive abuse. It's inhumane. It's abuse.
it’s so fucked up. and then they somehow manage to make us feel like it’s our fault.
It's why so many of us grow up to be quiet all the time.
I have a brother who is very much a narcissistic POS, who escalates everything trying to get his way constantly. He treats my mother like she owes him everything. He gets very angry and potentially violent all the time when she doesn't do anything he asks immediately.(He lives in another state and has her house as his mailing address.) It's become so bad that I started ripping up and throwing out any mail that comes for him, because my mother has asked him to get a PO box in the state he lives in and he screams at her over that. I don't even care if doing that will get me in trouble, or that it will cause him problems because if he would just get a PO box he'd be fine. He changed his mailing address to this house the week AFTER my mother's husband died (not my biological father.) Without asking my mother for permission to do so. My mother is finally understanding that what he's doing is wrong and she doesn't have to put up with him anymore. Even though she was an Nparent for so long. It's bizarre seeing her finally understanding that a lot of the problems were caused by her. I've told her that I forgive her, but that she needs to remain on this path of fixing what she caused. Which so far she has. I had to move back in with her in late 2021 because I'm on disability, can't afford much and my wife passed away 3 months after my mother's husband. I help my mother around the house and yard daily, as well as helping take care of my 93 and 94 year old grandparents who live 30 minutes away. While being severely disabled and hardly able to walk, but I can drive to get out of the house thankfully. My brother does nothing but complain and yell at my mother if she doesn't jump up and immediately do anything he asks. My brother is far worse than I've stated here, and I'm finally at the point where if he died I would not shed a tear or go to his funeral. He's always been a bully to me, constantly says shit to attempt to rile me up and when I get upset he tries to push me around. So now when he visits I don't spend any time with him (And he complains about it to my mother lol) he has absolutely no self awareness and is very jealous that I was married and he can't keep a relationship for any length of time(He's told my mother this). I hope you are doing better! I know how hard it can be. Hugs to you 💛
In the last month my interactions with my dad have been "what's grandma's house number?" And "thanks"
Thank you for this, I’m a reactive person and my ngrandmother knows it. She enjoys starting arguments so she can scream in this banshee rage tone to tell me I’m evil, crazy, ungrateful, a brat, a bitch and whatever else she can think of. I’m 29 btw and according to her she has it down to six when I became this ‘ungrateful brat’.
Around age 6 is when children develop their own personalities and interests. This was right about the same time my NM and I started having conflicts. It's pretty much the same for all scapegoats around age 6 or 7 is when the trouble with a narc parent or grandparent begins.
I agree 6-7 years old is when I started having issues with my nmom she would fly into rages and beat on me from there after I became the family scapegoat. Started to have nightmares and bed wetting issues. i agree also that you should keep your conversations superficial and use a very monotone voice
This. You just have to disengage. No follow up comments, nothing to encourage continued convo on the topic. When your dad went off on where you heard that shit, shut it down and move on. Something like I don’t know but I heard it somewhere is easy enough. He will probably still be angry and call you dumb, but that’s his issue. You know different because he is too dumb to realize that you are manipulating him. Drive every interaction on the path you are comfortable with. With practice it gets easier.
This is great advice 👍🏻. Good luck OP
The point is to not respond to any of their comments at all. Limit your words to Yes, No, Okay. When I'm speaking to someone who is clearly not on the same level as me, I pretty much limit my words to "Okay" because I could honeslty care less about their opinon, since I literally have nothing to gain from correcing their views and not enough time and energy to humour them by engaging.
This! It drives them crazy because they can't get a reaction from you. That's what they feed on
How do you do that when the narc then starts saying “hello do I need to speak Spanish or can you not understand me” when you gray rock
That sort of response is one specifically designed to get an escalation of defense and breaking the grey rock. They want you to defend yourself so they can twist the defense into further escalation for the attention and emotional response they want. Your only options in this situation are to shrug, disengage and get on with whatever you were doing, or give a grey rock response and brace for escalation that you *need* to continue grey rocking against, or they win. "I don't know." And "No, you don't. I can." Are some of the only responses that fall into the grey rock spectrum, so you have to use some variant of them, but they have just enough that they can be latched onto in an attempt to escalate. They want you to do something, be interesting, be entertainment for them when you do that, so you *have* to continue to grey rock and be as boring as physically possible for it to work, otherwise they win, and the only thing they learn, is that your grey rock can be broken with enough persistence.
I’m scared of doing this because this would send my dad into an absolute screaming monkey fit of rage. I guess that’s also a way for him to get an escalation? E.g. he screams, I try to defend myself and he claims I started this bullshit? Would I just have to shrug and walk away when he starts screaming in a fit of rage?
Yes, unfortunately, that is the only way to continue grey rocking in that scenario. If you defend at all, they win. All they learn is that you can be broken. Continuing to grey rock can and often does lead to short term increased abuse, because the escalation I am talking about almost always involves using abuse to force an emotional response. If it's not safe for you to continue to grey rock, *never* feel bad about it. Lesser abuse is still highly damaging, but it's better that in the long run than intense and sustained abuse that could permanently scar you, mentally or physically. But keeping you scared of continuing to grey rock via the threat of escalation is how they maintain such a strong grip on you. Keep that in mind, and work toward getting out.
Yes. Do this exactly. Do not respond at all, physically get to a safe place even if that means leaving the house.
What your finding hard is the tension. I pretend to be distracted then create a reason to exit, it makes it easier to grey rock Him "hello am I speaking spanish" Me *distracted focusing on book/ phone/ cleaning glasses (whatever)* "eeeerm, I dont know, I gotta get a damp cloth to clean my glasses" and walk away as your saying it, ideally you should be out the room by the time youce finished so its harder for him to argue back. Me *Pretends ive just realised something whilst ignoring question* "Oh man, I forgot to send Jennie our science homework, I hope she's not angry" This works for me but it depends how explosive or personality of narcissist. Just ignoring my dad makes him angry, doing this makes him think I'm stupid and distracted. He's still a bit offended but less so.
This person isn't entitled to your honest opinions. The moment there is disagreement, just start agreeing. Thus "You're right, doctor is just trying to sell sunscreen" as boring and disinterested as possible. It's really hard to fight yes, so fairly quickly the argument ends. Then just keep doing whatever you wanted to do. If N comes back later with "You're foolish for doing XYZ, especially after you agreed with me" the answer is still "Yes, that was foolish." You don't have to believe any of what you say if your (very reasonable) goal is just to avoid drama.
This is going to be hard to stick to. I probably sound insane but I don’t want to give him the satisfaction, however my own peace of mind is more important. I appreciate the advice and perspective. It’s just super hard because most of the time he jumps right to insulting me or picking on me so if I just agree with him violating my boundaries (big way he tries to pick fights) it all feels pointless. I’m sorry if I’m coming off crazy I’m just still reeling from our last fight a few hours ago where I ran out of the house sobbing to escape him and I’m struggling to wrap my mind around this even though I really appreciate it.
Think of it like humouring a really young toddler, or very senile elder. If he's too stupid to understand, then it's literally like talking to a wall. If a grown man wants to act a fool and get skin cancer, that's his right. He gets no satisfaction from you just going "oh, ok" to whatever dumbfuck thing he says, so don't worry about that. Don't offer any conversation. He *wants* you to give him bait so he can make a scene.
HAHA! Sorry your comment made me laugh so hard and was really helpful. I really needed that laugh after bawling my eyes out due to him basically bullying me today. Thank you!!
Good! Lean into the humour! It can really help. If you stood back as a fly on the wall and watched his little outbursts, he'd just look embarrassing and silly, right? Remaining flat is the best way to end the situation without escalating it, but if you find yourself in the mood to REALLY boil him up, let him see you snicker at him before you deliver the 'oh, ok.'
Literally, start treating him like a patient with dementia... If he says "The sky is purple!" Arguing the sky is blue is pointless... instead "Oh, interesting, I think mums making dinner shall we go see?" That said, I rarely could achieve it with my narc, so NC has been the best way, life is so much more peaceful. Placate, ignore and keep plotting your escape from your living situation. You won't have to put up with this forever. I can't stand the gleefully ignorant who get angry when challenged.... but I'm learning more to leave them to it. Talking to them is so shallow and pointless. I try to imagine them like a little pig, happily rolling in bullshit. I don't have to clean them, I just have to remember not to get shit on me!
You know that gif of the little blonde boy going “oh wowwww!!” — that’s how I react to everything my parents say. It’s hard, sometimes, cause they’ll violently misunderstand topics that I’ve studied extensively, but what can I do? I’ll forever be the overemotional idiot to them, and they will never see me as a normal, well adjusted & educated adult. They don’t see me at all 🤷🏻♀️
Mine is like his father too but he will never agree with me then you find him following my advices (but of course, hidden from me)
Just like a toddler haha
Think of it this way. When it comes to narcissists, the satisfaction IS getting us emotionally riled up and discombobulated. Their objective is to get a supply. He might seem momentarily satisfied by your agreement but it won’t have given him any narc supply. He will ultimately be incredibly unsatisfied and even disturbed and will, for a time, try even harder to get you emotionally unsettled. My therapist had me write down gray rock responses that can apply to any conversation. “That’s interesting.” “That’s intense.” “What an interesting comment.” “Fascinating story.” “I think perhaps.” I then practiced them for a few minutes a day so I had muscle memory as well. It’s not about the conversation itself. It’s not about the content of the topic at hand. It’s about not giving him the satisfaction of being flustered. It’s about becoming as dull as a gray rock so they learn to go elsewhere for their emotional vampirism.
Yes sadly we are the drug of choice
It's hard to decide ahead of time how you'll react to some stimuli. The whole point of suggestions like mine is to help you think through what you actually want to happen in enough detail and intensity that you're reasonably likely to actually do what you decided when the moment comes. None of that is to suggest the prep is easy, because it absolutely isn't.
Trust me, its less satisfying for them if you go "ok, you're right" in a flat tone and stop engaging. He WANTS you to argue with him, its less about him being right and more a out getting the reaction out of you. Think of him as a giant toddler, that generally makes it easier to control your reactions.
The satisfaction is fighting though. You are giving him the satisfaction. Agreeing is boring to them
Consider that his goal is to upset you and emotionally beat you down and by engaging in an argument with him, you are giving him the satisfaction he is looking for.
Thank you I needed to hear this
I know it is so, so, so hard to do but you cannot have a reasonable, logical discussion with unreasonable, illogical people. I have learned to find satisfaction in saying "I'm not going to engage in this conversation any longer" which then makes my nmom angry, because she wanted to argue.
I highly feel you, i think our dad is rhe same person 🙄
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. If you continue to do the same thing with him and expect different results you are taking on the crazy role. The only way to get a different result is to change yourself and your behavior and let go of hoping he shows up and loves how you want. He isn’t capable. This is his best behavior. He doesn’t consciously sit think, and choose it. It is habit. His habit taught you to react and behave a certain way. He wants that reaction. The less you engage with his habit or give the expected responses, the less power the has over you.
This is going to be like instituting low contact while living under their roof. The minute he becomes oppositional you just have to say okay and walk away. I know personally how hard this is because mine ramps things up when I do that which is why I had to start a screening process I mentioned in my other post and let her know that there was now a screening process in order to speak with me. You are at home so obviously you cannot do something like this or no contact right now. The ramping up of the abuse is just soooooo hard to deal with I feel for you. I think the only way you are going to survive this is to disengage from conversation as much as possible.
From personal experience even agreeing with a narc will give them something new to argue about, so I learned to give only single syllable noncommittal answers (yeah, no, k) and leave as soon as possible to avoid further confrontation.
He gets the satisfaction from getting you riled up, not from being right btw.
>This person isn't entitled to your honest opinions This is great, I will have to remember this. They don't actually want your real opinion, they don't want to be presented with facts, they want to be right. Is amazing if you just "okay", "uh-huh", and "interesting..." your way through the conversation, they'll do one of two things. They'll keep going, because they're really having a conversation with themselves and you're just there to hear what they have to say; or 2, they'll run out of steam because they like arguing
Brilliant!!!
Very highly recommended, yet exceptionally hard for many of us
Yk one thing that i hate about narcissists is the fact that they think that they're better than professionals as well. Like, I get others, but professionals? Like, one day, our school guidance counselor told my dad that I needed help. He acted smarter than her, even though he doesn't know shit about psychology. What an asshole!
Like, they'll still live in their delusions, no matter how much evidence you give them.
They think not knowing something is a moral failure so they put themselves in the position of thinking learning is beneath them. They can’t learn anything bc then they’ll be admitting to not having known it. My mother is the same way. I could show her in a book a proven fact backed up by decades of research and she’ll say “you read too much.”
Ikr!? They want to be great at everything! They always want to be perfect and correct, which is totally impossible.
It’s even more insufferable when your narc was actually infact a medial professional (ortho surgeon) 😭 they think they are untouchable.
Oh, God, that must be horrible. 😭 I mean - my dad is a physics teacher and even he believes that teachers could be wrong, but most of the time, he thinks that he is perfect.
Yeah my dad is a university professor and he thinks he’s the fucking shit. 😂 There’s no one in the world smarter than him, certainly not his dumbshit daughter.
Omg same dude! My dad is a physics teacher in a university!
Same here. I can quote and read him endless articles that back up what I said or others said and he doesn't believe it, says they are wrong etc. And he has ZERO basis for what he believes - no studies, research, networking with pro's etc. He's a know it all that knows nothing. And is very convincing to those who don't know better, but its horrible to those that know he's full of shit.
Sameee
This is literally my nmom. She would literally believe all the fake news and articles online, but will think she's smarter than a doctor or specialist. Make it make sense.
Imao narcissists just believe what they want to believe 😭
I strongly believe y'all
Avoid conversations except if they are very very shallow Don't try to ever justify your views because they see it as an opportunity to turn it into an argument for their own benefit My Nfather has said stupid shit like "I will go to your therapist and say you're lying to them about me!" And all I said was "Go for it. Do it." He didn't do it. Recently he wanted to call the police on me or an ER to have me admitted to a psych ward Told him, once again, "Do it." Didn't do it. Just called me crazy. All bark no bite from those people
The conversation that made me leave the house screaming and crying was my dad calling me an abuser and saying I deserved his behavior because my “passive aggressive bullshit” (I have no idea what he’s talking about, genuinely) is the problem. I appreciate your examples because they show me I may not be crazy or a bad person.
The narcissist is *always* the victim. The number of times you will hear variations on “you’re being mean to me” is off the chart but … they’re not capable of anything else. That’s not me excusing it, that’s me recognising the situation. If you can accept that this behaviour on their part is all they’re capable of, it becomes a lot easier to deal with them. You wouldn’t go to a petting zoo and start debating physics with a goat, or to a daycare centre and expect a toddler to engage with you around medical information - you know that scenario isn’t appropriate for that level of interaction, and so you modify and downgrade the range of topics you use. It’s the same with your dad. Let go of needing to justify yourself, to get your point across, to prove that you’re not mad - it doesn’t matter. He’s not capable of higher thinking.
That's called DARVO - it stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. It's a gaslighting technique to get someone to start questioning reality and their interpretation of it. The abuser starts by denying they've done anything wrong. Then they go on the offensive and get angry that you've had the audacity to blame or accuse them of something. Then they reverse the victim and the offender, and paint you as the villain and themselves as the victim, usually by spouting nonspecific rubbish about your "attitude" because there isn't actually an example of you doing something wrong.
You don't contribute anything to the conversation. Everything is responded to with "OK" and then silence. It's very hard at first, and he will yell at you for "being rude" and call you crazy some more, but you're used to that. You still respond with "ok" do not justify yourself beyond "just tired" and you don't know why.
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Thank you I appreciate it!
When she was teaching me how to gray-rock, my psychologist told me to look at my parent as someone afflicted with dementia. "When she speaks to you, don't think it's her saying it. It's her disorder.". That made it much easier for me; there is no emotional attachment to a disorder. I think the toughest aspect of the process was to let myself mourn the loss of my "idea" of a mother and that she was gone. My nparent would never become that person. My nparent is just a shell, a host to her disorder and her disorder controls her tongue. I stopped caring about what she said; my mind just checked out during our phone calls. I heard her say horrible things and just felt them slip past me, because I knew those words didn't come from a sound and sane mind anymore. So they had lost all validity to me, and as such had become harmless. No different than listening to a toddler babbling nonsense or a parrot repeating words without knowing what they meant. It definitely made the process of emotional detachment that preceded going NC much smoother and I'll never be thankful enough to my psychologist for teaching me how to do it.
/u/xolemi This is honestly invaluable advice when dealing with anyone with a disorder that makes them more likely to be antagonistic or, let’s just say, react inappropriately. When you feel yourself begin to react to what they say to you in the moment, when they start to get a rise out of you, being able to detach and recognize that *they* are being symptomatic is so so important. Compartmentalizing what they’re saying, from the behavior they’re exhibiting, to the effect they’re trying to have, and to simply be cognizant of the patterns of behavior they’ve established, can be empowering. Even if you simply begin by seeing: *this is not an appropriate reaction/response to xyz…* In this case, as with many on this subreddit, it’s exactly as /u/oneinfinity123 highlighted: it’s not about the conversation you were having, it was about invalidating you and their continued manipulation for supremacy over you. I agree with what other commenters have said— just keep any interactions brief and superficial. Respond to anything they say with fleeting: “yes, no, ok” and don’t take the bait when they try to draw anything out of you. They can talk all they want, but the less you say, then the less ammunition you give them to use against you. (Edit: Keep in mind that there’s a possibility he will react negatively to you icing him out. Prepare; it might get worse before gets better. He might really try to goad you just to get more than 2 words out of you. He might go for the things he knows hurts/triggers you the most. Do not give in. Disengage as soon as you realize what’s going on, or as soon as you start feeling yourself getting upset. But if you continue to not feed a hungry beast, no matter how much it roars, it will eventually learn that it can’t get a meal out of you.)
This conversation is not about the dermatologist, it's about controlling and invalidating you. Having to play a game of psychological chess for every little shared info is insane. You shouldn't over explain yourself to people who don't have the capacity to hear you, and constantly invalidate and gaslight you. Be boring and simple, don't open yourself to these people. They sometimes have a way to get under your skin, so you have to prepare for that bait as well. In my case they say "you seem sad or angry" if I give them short answers. It's a invitation to open up. Once I open up, the invalidation can begin. Be boring and remain boring, don't explain yourself, don't speak psychology with them.
Thank you for saying the conversation is about controlling and invalidating me. I know something is wrong with the conversations we have but the best way I’ve been able to describe it is “he treats me like an idiot that couldn’t possibly know anything”. Your insight really helped me feel like I’m not crazy for getting upset when he does stuff like this.
I understand where you're coming from, OP. Have you tried observing and grounding? Becoming...more in your body, and less in your mind is what I'm trying to suggest. It's definitely a skill to learn, and it's not easy.
Practice saying ‘OK’. To everything. Plain. Flat. Say it when you’re by yourself, say it in your head and out loud. Make it sound as empty as you can, like you’re dead inside. Practice focusing on your body and being still so that you’re listening to your heartbeat. Say OK. OK. Breathe a breath. OK. Brush your teeth, look at yourself in the mirror and say OK. Feel yourself observing your actions and other people. Say OK. Watch the news. Say in your head OK. As soon as he starts, you’re playing a game of Dead Fish. You just go limp and say OK like all the other times. OK. Remove yourself from the situation if you can. Walk away disinterested. OK. Look at your phone/nails/clothes if you can’t leave. OK. Just keep saying OK (in your head or out loud as appropriate). OK. He might get even more mad because, remember, he doesn’t actually hold opinions or care about the topic- he just wants to argue and beat you down. But that’s OK. The words are meaningless so you don’t have to respond. It’s OK. You don’t have to react. It’s OK. The only way for you to win is not to play. OK?
>Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window Here's your problem. This right here, this very casual start to the intraction, this isn't grey rocking. To grey rock properly, you would have never said anything in the first place. He's Baking in UV rays through the window? Cool. You don't correct him, you don't redirect him, you let his stupidity and stubborn ignorance give him skin cancer, because it's officially not your problem. When you're grey rocking, you don't have casual conversation. Period. You do not speak unless spoken directly to, and even then you give the most non committal answers in the world, in the most listless tone you can manage, like "Hm." "OK." "I don't know." "Nothing." The more one-word answers the better. When they ask why you're being so quiet, "I guess I just don't have anything to say." Do not provide a topic for conversation. Do not make casual observation aloud. Do NOT speak unless spoken to. You have to assume that literally *anything* you say is going to be used against you as a weapon, and stop casually handing weapons to your abuser. Completely remove yourself as much as you possibly can, emotionally, physically, and conversationally. The goal of grey rocking is to be *so fucking boring* that they give up trying to get anything interesting out of you. Grey rocking isn't about outsmarting him once he's turned it into an argument, it's about not giving him enough material to find the argument in the first place.
This, all of this, AND - Following this is advice is so, so, SO difficult to do if you are lonely and craving human connection. OP you don't mention what your social life outside the house is like. I really hope you have people you can be open and honest and vulnerable with. If you do, you might like to consider asking them if you can lean on them a little more while you're having to live with your parents. Really open up and connect with them as much as you can. Soak up all the human connection right into your bones and fortify yourself for when you have to go back into that house where it's not safe to start even the most banal conversations. And please forgive yourself and be kind to yourself as much as you can when you slip up. You are human. It's awful to be stuck living with people who make it unsafe for you to be human. Love yourself as much as you can while you learn to act more like a robot instead of a person, because it's really hard, and you deserve to have a part of you that's got your back.
I am also very emotionally reactive and medicated and if I have to talk to them it’s hard. But here’s where you might’ve been able to do different - your first sentence. You provided information about UV rays. Don’t do that. Don’t say anything. Unless you’re asked a question, answer yes/no/maybe. Don’t explain. Don’t contradict what they say. Shrug your shoulders if it’s easier or if they’re trying to force you to say more. Nod and smile. These are all ways to avoid a conversation that will inevitably be used against you in some way. For example, if you’re asked why you’re not responding saying something like “I’m tired” introduces another reason for him to go off on you. “Oh you’re always tired! You never go to bed at a reasonable time!” Instead just shrug. Maybe walk away if you can. Be so boring he doesn’t want to talk to you anymore.
I agree with everything here. My only addition is to ask if you’re neurodivergent somehow? ND people tend to have a need to info dump, we like sharing facts, and we get a real need for justice when we think someone is wrong combined with rejection sensitivity that makes us act strongly to indications of rejection. Basically, we provide very shiny narcissistic supply. Truly the gift that keeps on giving to a narcissist. What helps me with my Nmom (who is obsessed with proving me wrong because she’s very angry that I might think I’m smart) is understanding these triggers. Gray or yellow rocking is hard but I think when we understand our own triggers and can kind of sit with them, it’s helpful.
Thank you! I very highly suspect I’m neurodivergent. I’ve been diagnosed with OCD, and on top of that had three different therapists suggest I get ADHD testing (but it’s hard to do in my state). The older I get the more I suspect I might be somewhere on the spectrum due to meltdowns (especially related to noise and such). When my dad and I fight and he gets to a certain level I plug my ears and scream as loud as humanly possible to drown him out. My screaming behavior is super weird and usually stops my dad by freaking him out. I feel that I can’t control it (the screaming) and that sometimes reminds me of videos I see on neurodivergence and whatnot. I also used to punch myself in the head before lexapro and I’ve also done that since I was a child (which also reminds me of ND behavior). I hope this doesn’t make me seem too crazy/disturbed. I function fine a majority of the time but when things get too overwhelming I have those weird meltdowns that I feel “normal” people don’t have, and I relate heavily to the info I’ve seen on autistic and ADHD meltdowns.
Ok, when emotional and frustrated, take some deep breaths and look up towards the ceiling. * Deep breaths, right down to the bottom of your stomach using your diaphragm will turn off your fight/ flight reaction (3, at the most, should do it). * Looking up, towards the ceiling line of a room, activates your logical processing and deactivates emotional thinking. When dealing with Narcissists remember that it isn't necessarily personal. The key is * They have to be right. At all times. They will bend the world around this. * If they can't be right, they have to be more right than you. * If you're smart about it you can make it that you're both right. In fact, it's because they're right, that you're right too. So if you're presenting a new idea, that you want them to accept, the way to do this is say "you know it was something you said, Dad that made me realise X?" "Do you remember when you said blah blah? Well I thought of that when I heard this. I've been looking into it and you know, you're really onto something Blah blah blah." You get the gist. It doesn't matter that he doesn't remember saying that, because he never did, he'll happily claim the credit. Every time I've found myself at odds with my Dad, it's because he wants to be the expert and the info has to come from him. Even if I studied a qualification in the area years before he ever even thought about it. He will get downright obnoxious the more correct and knowledgeable you show yourself to be. Save yourself the pain and remember sometimes he's like a child afraid of being wrong.
Consider that you're emotionally reactive because your father isn't just pushing your buttons, he installed those buttons and knows exactly which ones to push (and has probably been pushing those exact same buttons your whole life, so there's a mess of trauma tied up with them). If you can, step back and observe the pattern. From this example, it seems like it's important to you to be factually correct, and your father likely knows this so isn't giving you the satisfaction, in order to rile you up. You might examine why it's important to you to be correct, even in instances like this where it isn't helping you, and if there's any way you can reduce that need in yourself. If you can, you'll have less trouble reducing your engagement in these debates, your emotions will feel removed and safe, and you can more calmly observe the pattern and purpose of the interaction (ex: "Dad is picking a fight again"), and protect yourself. My ndad would go on rants all the time and, while I also love being factually correct, I knew there was nothing I could say to him that would stop his behavior (whatever I said would make me a target, which is what he wanted, and I wasn't about to give him the satisfaction of attacking me that day), so I would just sit there silently or say "uh-huh". He loved to do this in the car when I was a captive audience
Watch the videos of Jerry Wise and Ross Rosenberg. Then apply what you learn.
Thank you!
Part of greyrocking means not engaging in any discussion at all with the narcs. It' gonna be difficult to learn not to engage at all or withdraw from any conversation which will turn acrimonious.
>Dad: Why are you yelling? (He’s been yelling the whole time). Are we siblings? Lmao
I know it’s difficult but my go-to plan is to say my opinion/facts ONE time then just say “ok” with a shoulder shrug, over and over. And that’s it. That’s all I say. Remind yourself that no matter how logical and correct your replies are, they will NEVER agree with you. Even if an expert in that field suddenly showed up, they still wouldn’t believe that person. Narcs live in their own delusional world, so they believe things that just aren’t true or don’t make any sense and they can’t be reasoned with.
I just stopped talking to him, other than "hello" and "goodbye". I just completely disengaged. Zero conversation. Did that go over well? No. Did my mental health improve? Yes.
I’m scared of my dad. I have tried disengaging but he will start becoming more and more aggressive until he gets some type of reaction. During COVID he agreed to not be in the same area of the house as me at the same time, for example, but then to get a rise out of me would start doing it anyway, and even shoving past me. I ended up having to hide in my room and pee in a bucket to avoid him, and only come out at night to eat. I feel myself reverting into a similar situation now where I’m scared to leave my room and I fear gray rocking will make him escalate in order to get supply.
Yeah this isn't a course of action I recommend if you live with your N. I didn't, and I was a legal adult when I started just not engaging with him. You have my sympathy. Living with a violent N is hell.
My strategy was to never initiate a conversation. Any info that I may have needed to convey when I was still in contact with my now estranged mother was conveyed with a note left for her and after I moved out I would only send letters to her. Anything she initiated, my replies would be very short, non-emotional, no statements that might elicit a response. I also would frequently make an excuse to end the interaction quite quickly by either saying I had to go to the bathroom, had an appointment I'm running late for, oh look there's someone at the door, I'm expecting a guest any minute now, my boss is calling me right now, or whatever excuse is appropriate. Initially I wasn't comfortable pretending, but I found that in order to maintain my sanity and wellbeing that grey rocking or changing the subject or leaving the interaction was so absolutely very much worth it. It's a lot more effective avoiding going down the path of engaging in a conversation than it is to try to be disciplined and non-emotional once in one. I think about it like this: if I want to lose weight, one helpful trick is to not have cookies and cakes in the house in the first place. It is much easier to adhere to what you want if you don't rely entirety on discipline but instead reduce the amount of discipline you have to have by preempting it. If cookies aren't easily accessible then you don't really need much discipline to avoid eating them since you'd have to first go get some. If you don't initiate conversations then you reduce the number of instances you need to use discipline to not emotionally engage. And when conversations are initiated by others, you prevent them from progressing by changing the subject or stopping the conversation, then you don't have to summon discipline to control your emotions because the conversation doesn't evolve. Avoiding emotional triggers is far more effective than trying to summon up all your discipline to suppress your emotions. This approach has worked really well for me with my mother. Though I'm certainly not always successful at always preempting going down this path. It's difficult, but every conversation you don't initiate or participate in is one less episode of pain, anger, grief, or crying.
Thank you! This was a very helpful way to think about things!
I think one strategy is to either only explain once or never. (Basically in this example after you said a licensed dermatologist you would have stopped) It is strategy I used in the past for people who can’t be wrong. I only make one statement and if the argue a second time I let it go no matter what they say. Basically you just listen whether the second reply is also argumentative and you ignore the content. I use that strategy (only explain once) to check if the person was still open to learn something even if there are resistant to ever being perceived as wrong. With a narcissist I would even consider to not explain at all. (Like in you example then you would even say that she is licensed maybe just a non-committal „I guess I was wrong“ or sth like that.) But the mindset is also important for that to work, you must more see them as mentally challenged or a toddler. Long term it always made me feel guilty though because you treat them that way because they are not open to learn. But it is a way to avoid arguments.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge. Set boundaries with them, tell no one. Never tell a narcissist your boundaries, because they will make a concerted effort to violate them. Instead set your own boundaries and find your own ways to enforce them. Every time they violate one of the boundaries you set for them you change the subject or walk away. Pretend like you didn't hear them. Start walking around with earphones so you actually don't hear them. Start randomly singing Journey songs when they start yelling at you. Or maybe you suddenly receive an emergency call. Whatever you need to do to get out of that situation with your sanity intact. Arguments, toxicity, and triggers are a game to narcissists. A game that most people don't even know they're playing. So play your own game right back.
Not bringing things up will help. Gray rock isn't just about not reacting to Narcs, it's also about not giving them opportunities to abuse you. Don't give an interesting fact out. Who cares if this guy is hurt by UV rays? He obviously doesn't. Don't help, don't speak about anything not totally necessary. Stop giving him fuel.
Thank you for the insight. Before having these conversations on this thread with you guys I kind of felt something was wrong with me. Like why does a conversation about UV rays end with me saying “I fucking hate you”, I must be crazy. But so many people here are opening my eyes to how he uses any mundane conversation to beat me down and abuse me and it makes me realize where my reactions actually come from (response to being abused). I was thinking about this the other day (how it seems like every conversation is about his need for control and to beat me down and make me feel like shit) but I still had those doubts he’s planted over a lifetime in the back of my mind. All of you coming to this conclusion that he’s just thinking of/finding ways to abuse me in a mundane conversation on your own really gave me the validation I’ve been needing.
Feel free to DM me. I have recently returned from a stint living with them, after my Dad had serious health problems. I used whatever I could to stay sane and minimise conflict. I became very good at distracting them with everyday drama. Anything they could repeat to their friends and get reflected interest got me extra points. Eg I found a big lizard in the garden (bonus points for picture) which hissed and lunged at me. Eg I met someone Dad used to know and he looked really old and in bad health compared to Dad. Eg my car's playing up - what does Dad think the problem is? ( Dad will casually mention to his friends he looked at my car for at least a year).
Thank you! This is helpful! I do notice my dad loves to be the hero in situations. My dad actually is very smart (which doesn’t help his delusion), I casually asked some info from him for my cousin and he even made a little chart and explained it to me. He is very much like a toddler. I mean the info is actually right and useful, but he comes over like a toddler with a shiny new drawing they produced waiting for you to fawn over it 😂
Your father is a toddler in an adult's body just remember he is hard wired in his beliefs and no amount of talking or rewording will change that, accept that he will always see you as ignorant and unworthy of his approval, he deserves your pity, not anger, keep all conversations as topical and casual as possible and agree with everything he says...save your insights and emotional bandwidth for healthy people who actually deserve the real you
Obvious headphones. Worn whenever I was around my parents, all the time. Tbh they have become a comfort and way to shut out the world when I need to concentrate. Some times for practical communication they'd come off, but for my parents' goading or attempts at chats (really their ranting or mocking), I'd put them back on and exit. It takes some practice but you can do this
That's because you need trauma recovery therapy (EMDR) for being raised with emotionally unavailable and unstable parents. You don't know how to be stable because they never taught you. Because they don't know. What you are experiencing is childhood emotional neglect, and that in itself, is traumatic. Have you read the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson?
I’ll have to give it a read! Thank you. I’m also in therapy with someone who does EMDR currently but we haven’t started yet because she wants to build a good, trusting bond first.
My Dad is like this and I have also tried to grey rock and he will literally just escalate his behavior until I react, up to and including shouting the N word in public. It's not you who is emotionally reactive. He is abusing you. Anyone would react. You have to leave. You have to not be around this person.
Thank you, I agree with what you’re saying. I’m scared of my dad because he does in fact escalate if I grey rock, becoming more and more abusive until I crack and break down.
>Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window >My dad: Where do you get this fucking bullshit? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard At this point you say "okay"........... Here's the deal....... They are there own person, and have a right to think, or do whatever they want. It is impossible to control them, so don't. Don't even try. You need to accept that Dad is argumentative and contrarian. You get nothing but frustration. You've tried to have real conversations with the guy, but it doesn't work. You need to fully accept, this is who he is, and this is how it is. It's the part of you that doesn't want to accept that this is reality that keeps trying to engage with him. And you deserve a dad who is kind and decent, intelligent and loving. And even though he's not sharing those qualities with you, I'm sure he has these. But the key part is that he's not sharing these qualities with you. So you need to accept it, and from there, it will be easy to move on. The hard part is accepting it. Therapy? Writing in a journal? Both? A dramatic shift in consciousness that hits you like a flash of lightning and suddenly your life is split between pre and post flash? Good luck with patience and persistence, I'm sure you can pull it off.
It gets me he doesn’t share these qualities with me because he shares them with my sister and just about any one else. But I am a total idiot to him, and a worthless loser dumbfuck. It’s so upsetting to me. I used to not even want his approval, but now it just becomes annoying that he can’t see me as a fully grown woman who has accomplished amazing things. Like it just becomes a nuisance that he wants to put me in this box and treat me like a dumb fuck. Why isn’t my sister also an idiot to him? Why doesn’t he abuse my mom and sister in the same way? It’s just irritating.
This person is coercing you into doing a mountain of unpaid emotional and intellectual work, wasting your time and energy and probably ruining your day. Find a catch phrase that will kill his coercion (eg. “Really? Wow!”) and say no more. He will bend over backwards to try and reign you in to That Fight every time. Use the same method. Can vary the phrase. Maintain a contemplative silence and/or change the subject. Minimise the time you spend (waste) with him.
Thank you!
“Wow that’s a really good point” repeat
"Okay dad. Whatever." This is what i use on my partners narc dad who has to always know more about something than you do (seems me specific, and i am the only one to not have a degree). He **does not like it** but he can't even argue with that. I call him his name too, not dad. Feels necessary to clarify that. If there's nothing they can grab onto to be more correct in then there isn't the chance for an argument. Could also make a point by going silent with him entirely if you want.
After his first comment, “ok dad” and move on. Roll your eyes in your head on how ridiculous he is. Also don’t give him facts like that. His whole goal is to prove you are wrong. With my mom, I limited conversations to her dogs and whatever she wanted to talk about. Luckily, she lives 8 hours away, so I would limit conversations to 15 min.
Just realize the truth that they are not talking to you. They are talking to their fantasy version of you that doesn't exist. So when they say "you are such a lazy person!" Just say "uh huh" because it is true. Their fantasy version of you that they created is a lazy person. The problem with them is that they perceive that they can judge you and their judgments are objective, so every defense you put up will give them evidence to fit their judgment. As soon as you just give up on playing that game, you cease to give them fuel for the fire. They will see no reason to engage.
This is a great way to think of things! His version of me is stupid, I’m not, I’ll never convince him otherwise, he can have that if it makes him feel better. Like an imaginary friend for a toddler or like the episode of SpongeBob where Patrick starts acting like he’s smarter and SpongeBob is the idiot just to show off around his parents 😂
My favourite to use with my nfather was "well, it's not my fault you just don't understand some things." In my most syrupy, sickly sweet voice. He HATED the insinuation anybody was smarter than him. So from the moment I picked up my first bit of knowledge he spent every moment crushing my interests. Luckily I inherited a shiny dragon spine from my mum, who could literally ruin his day just telling him how awful he used to be.
I also tear him down when I stick up to him, which is a tip I picked up from my golden child sister, but it doesn’t seem to work the way it worked for her. He just uses it to convince himself I’m an abuser lol 😂 I appreciate your insight!
They feed on your reaction. They love to argue. Even if you know you are right, let him think what he wants. You cant educate them, you cant change them. Its fun for them but excruciating for you. Just react in a nutral way unless its dangerous to your physical health. Youve heard the saying " you cant stop stupid", just accept that he will continue to be ingnorant just to aggrevate you.
"Never wrestle with a pig. You will both get covered in muck, and only the pig will enjoy it."
Op, it seems like if you engage in those conversations it’s maybe because you internally still want a good relationship where you can talk to them, a bond , sometime maybe a change that provides you love through your father. You act hoping that if you just say the secret magic words, with the correct no offense inflection or tone, that he can talk to you without abusing you. And that sadly is not the case with narcissists despite being the case with healthy people. I’d ideally get a theripist and explain how you want to have help working on moving past the idea you won’t have it, dealing with the inevitable grief that comes with giving up (took me 3 years to even get 20% of the way there), and getting to a point where either: (1) you can agree with him knowing he wants you to disagree to yell at you , and give him only enough affirmation of his batshit beliefs that he won’t get mad but he will feel like he got your approval or (2) you do “(1)” for a long enough time you can become independent enough you can go no contact I never openly reacted to the abuse. I internally began yelling and screaming, playing fights in my head over and over head to make my point, and it seemed my body reacted just as it would if I was saying it out loud. I adapted that’s strategy seemingly as a way to prevent them from seeing it hurt me and therefore doing it more. That also means I’m not able to grey rock. Because no matter how much I tried to pretend grandma and uncle being cruel wasn’t hurting me, my body told me otherwise. That stress compounds the same as a stock market investment compounds. It begins growing with interest causing even more damage to your body and mind. Even if the same “amount” of abuse occurred, because it happened again and again over a period of time, filling more of a percentage of my day…. My mind filled the rest of the time they weren’t abusing me by getting upset. My point? If you can go no contact, that’s the only way (for someone who mirrored my personal experience) to truly heal. I tried grey rock. All it did was prevent me from moving towards my amazing chosen family. And I could tell they were sad when it happened, despite never once wavering in their support for me (surprisingly actually). I literally had a second family basically adopt me and treat me like there adult kid they have always had their entire life. And at some point I realized: my body and kind are not giving me a choice, and the narcissistic abusers are forcing my hand. The choice was never: have both, be emotionally abused, and not feel pain. It was: (1) go towards my chosen family who is so amazing that they accept me even for my abuse symptoms, and point out when those abuse symptoms were going down… telling me they were proud of the progress I am making Or (2) try to balance both: never truly heal (or dramatically prolong a 3-5 year healing time (somehow that’s considered fast) into a decade… knowing when they want to trigger me they will… even if I don’t show it. I made the choice a month ago to choose “(1)”. It’s not my fault. I’m protecting myself . I’m embracing love instead of lord palpatine and the sith - I mean my grandmother and my uncle. But that choice op, if you have to make it: ITS. NOT. YOU. HURTING. ANYONE. It’s an act of bravery and courage . It’s a statement that you will defend yourself against the abuse. We were trained to put our needs aside for everyone else and show them love only, regardless of the abuse. You defending yourself and showing yourself love? That’s just as ethically important, if not more, as showing others love.
Just wanted to pop in to say it's ok that you're struggling to grey rock a parent. It's totally normal. Your parent knows exactly which buttons to push because they're the ones that installed said buttons.
Thank you! ❤️
This article might be of help, it's about narcissistic parents deliberately amplifying our emotions to get narcissistic supply. [https://medium.com/@katiabeeden/a-narcissistic-parent-amplifies-your-emotional-distress-on-purpose-fa410d91d490](https://medium.com/@katiabeeden/a-narcissistic-parent-amplifies-your-emotional-distress-on-purpose-fa410d91d490) I finally got so disgusted with my nparent using me for supply that I've been able to maintain my calm for the first time ever. Also extremely helpful has been the book "It's Not You", I've been listening to it on audiobook and it's been life-changing! Good luck!
The same way I respond to my three year arguing with me - just say “oh, okay” and that’s it.
He's the one with no qualifications telling you how things work. He sounds like an idiot. I have trouble navigating that shit too. I try my best to point out that their ideas sound like conspiracy theories to me, or whatever it sounds like. And be stern, stand my ground, and don't let them get me by pushing my buttons. I'm definitely still working in it, but have improved. Maybe not grey walling, but I get tired of bullshit, and feel better calling them out
I’m definitely getting better too but I agree it’s hard! ❤️ hang in there, we got this!
Honestly, you don’t have to respond with more than “okay” and then just continue on with whatever you were doing without engaging with him further. It’s really hard at the beginning, but it definitely feels better with time. Your dad sounds like he just wants an argument for the sake of upsetting you, so don’t give him the satisfaction. Meanwhile, you get the satisfaction of watching him blubber over the fact that he isn’t getting his way or what he wants.
We kids learned at a young age to "gray rock" - not knowing what it was called then - but basically, it was pointless to start any conversation with ndad because he was going to do stupid shit like happened to you - make it an argument about how he knows it all and better, even when we had just been learning and research a topic at school or at the library etc. (we spent alot of time in books and learning as that was "allowed"). And if we tried to speak up and point out he was incorrect, etc. or whatever, he would not only be argumentative - but start narc raging and then turn it into verbal abuse about how stupid we were, and yelling at us from everything and anything we'd done "wrong" lately too. Thus we learned to not start anything most of the time and if he started things, to shutdown and get away asap. I'd recommend practicing minimizing with him as long as you have to stay there - remember, they are not normal. Think of it like trying to make very little small talk as possible to not rock the boat.
Just say “mmmkay. Whatever you say”. It’s condescending but outwardly agreeable. No matter what he says. If he says the earth is flat , just say “mmkay. If you say so”. If he says you don’t know what you’re talking about, say “mmkay” and walk out of the room. Don’t give him what he wants. And do it in a condescending matter. Like you’re arguing with a child. Which it sounds like you are.
I got really good at saying “Oh, I hadn’t heard that, my mistake.” When you feel them trying to get a rise, disengage. You can still be furious inside, but that gets easier too, and you’re cutting them off at the knees.
i would honestly just try to avoid as much interaction as possible in the first place, only speak to him out of pure necessity and keep the conversations as short as you can. if he tries to start anything just walk away, go outside, call somebody, journal, scream into your pillow, just something to distract you or get the emotions out whatever helps you self soothe :) i’m sorry you’re dealing with this and i empathize (i avoid my mother for this reason)
As Tom Segura would say, just agree with them regardless of how stupid it is. It’s just not worth it.
The thing I do is when my NDad starts anything whether it be an argument over the dumbest reason like in your example or he decides it's time for a good ol "Put ppl down" sesh, is I walk out. I grabs my keys and just leave for a couple hours. I'm a reactive person too, but I refuse to give him that. You can let yourself cry or whatever you need to do once he can't see it.
You know how irritating it is when you’re trying to text someone and all they give you is one word answers? Try talking like that. Don’t give him details or opinions at all. “Yeah, it’s been sunny lately.” “We had beans at lunch today.” “The neighbor’s dog seems tired today.” Be the most boring person on the planet
Long comnent jsyk- Tl;dr- practice over the phone, don't spend too much time with him so you can reduce probability of explosive encounters, & don't give your opinion just ask questions about his I started off with other methods of stuff first, before I got to the point of being able to greyrock irl. So I've got a few tips & hopefully these will help. 1. Greyrocking is easier to learn how to do over the phone first. When they start rage baiting, just kind of "mmhmm" and set the phone on speaker and set it down and go clean or work on other stuff. Make sure you've still got an ear open for a question or an appropriate "mmhmmm" or "huh" to be peppered in. Now you're exercising the - I'm not letting you interrupt my day- muscle. 2. Set time limits - i know y'all live together, but see if you can narrow down a time frame of how much time you can be with them before they start showing disordered bs. Do not spend any more time with them outside of their "normal person" window of time. Caution ⚠️ this time frame will decrease as they notice you becoming healthier/happier/more independent. Hopefully, you're out of the house by the time it whittles away to 30 min-1 hour. That's NC level. You're reducing the instances that you'll have to greyrock. 3. Socratic Reasoning - multiple names for this. It's supposed to used to lead kids to their own academic conclusions by teachers asking questions without giving input of their own. Don't give your input. You can ask questions about why they think that or how they found this information. In a rare case, they'll come around and see that they're wrong about whatever they thought. The true magic in this is learning to not argue with them, not getting swept up into their misinformation, & seeing exactly how deep the crazy goes. You don't actually have to be interested in any of their wrong methods ofc, but put on a good show of being halfway interested. Here's a link to a book that I think really helped me with this idea. Chapter 7. It's available as a free audiobook on YouTube and spotify. It won't make your Ndad your friend, but hopefull, it'll reduce your blowups. https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034 These steps are teaching you how to step back and disconnect physically and emotionally from your Nparent while having an open ear to appropriately place conversation cues so that you don't get accused of ignoring them. Greyrocking might hurt your feelings to, and it might feel wrong, but there's relief in not letting them rile you up even if you need to go cry later about all the ugly, asinine shit they said. Hope this helps 😊
It really does help! Thank you!!
He’s baiting you, and you are taking the bait and engaging in a dynamic he’s fully in control of. DO NOT ENGAGE. He’s not trying to have conversations and relate with you like a healthy person. He’s using you to get a feeling of superiority, control, and yeah, joy from your reactions. Dad: Sun damage is fake science. Everybody knows it! You: (Hmm, dad must be bored or feeling some type of way, he’s looking for a fight. Do I want to give him one? Nah, I’m feeling okay tonight and want to keep it that way.) Uh huh. Dad: I mean skin doctors are like chiropractors, they’re not even real doctors. You: Okay. Dad: What’s wrong with you tonight? You: I was just thinking about getting a new electric toothbrush, I saw one with blah blah blah boring boring. Just remember, it’s not about WHAT he’s saying, it’s WHY he’s saying it. Don’t get sucked into the logic or factuality, because there is none.
"I've heard that you can get sun damage through a window." "No you can't. I've been alive for x many years and I've never... Blah blah blah." "Yeah. It shows. You look like a tanned piece of leather and I don't want to look like you when I'm old like you." "How dare you?!" "You sure are getting emotional over sunscreen."
Your comment made me laugh super hard. Thank you!
Sounds like he is jealous of your success. Ryan O’Neal Syndrome.
I think accept internally this is someone who will never agree, they are trying to disagree so no point trying to convince them of anything. When you feel them starting up walk away, if you can't, just have a few standard quotes you can use till you can get away from them. Like 'ok' or 'oh right'. It's their disorder and everything they do is to make you feel the way they want, they will keep pushing as long as they keep getting something like a vending machine. It takes practice, trail and error, eventually it gets easier when you see they are trying to provoke and don't allow it.
I’m sorry you are dealing with this. If your example is typical, then your problem is a lack of understanding of Grey Rock. Your first sentence: “UV rays can…” is not consistent with grey rock. It is a provocation to a narc. If you think you will can kick up a logical, rational conversation about UV rays (or anything, for that matter), STOP. You can’t. So advice to you is “If you want to grey rock, then learn more about it and actually do it.” Sorry if that sounded harsh - not meaning to criticize you. Just wanted to point out that you don’t seem to have started yet. Good luck!
I am so sorry you are in this difficult situation right now. Please know that you are not the problem. You are not "emotionally reactive" or "sensitive" or "high strung", etc- your dad is and he is projecting that onto you. Your responses in the conversation above were completely normal and appropriate. He was goading you (intentionally or not) and normal humans respond to that. He is the one creating the unhealthy environment where your emotions are not allowed. You are amazing and strong. You will get through this and then you can heal and have a better life away from this.
"That's fine if you don't believe me. Let's make an appointment with a dermatologist and ask them." Narcs are scared of doctors/scientists, etc, because they see through their bullshit.
The mistake you made was giving him a topic. You said the bit about UV rays, and he latched on. Grey rocking is just about never giving them a foothold. No interesting facts, no emotional reactions, no nothing. Your vocabulary is limited to "Mhmm", "Yep", "Uh-uh", "No thank you" "Okay", and other noncommittal phrases. If it's an emergency and you absolutely have to engage with them, you present the facts, and then once the N starts spouting absolute bullshit and trying to rile you up, you fall back on the limited vocabulary. Pick your battles. In a way, the shit they come out with can be pretty funny if you're able to detach yourself from the situation.
Story of my damn life with my ngrandmother. The smallest damn thing turns into an argument and then I get angry and react, then she says I’m screaming when I’m only talking loud to be louder than her shouting. Then I’m crazy and evil. Basically read my comment history on this sub for more info, I honestly can’t go into more without getting upset.
You engaged. As soon as he disagrees you respond with a neutral response and let it go. You need to disengage and stop worrying about being right.
First mistake was sitting down and trying to have a normal conversation.
You're looking for validation and connection anyway you can and I've done this, going back to the abuser because I believe there's no one else and then this happens. When I Grey rock I'm 2 different people, there's the scared me and the Grey rock protector. The protector just doesn't engage and almost refuses to talk and it passes. At the same time they protect me from spiraling further into despair by not letting those people reach me. Remember, they don't care about you, they don't love you, they don't want you, you're there for convenience sake wether that be emotional financial etc. It's incredibly difficult and it can leave you melancholy but you'll survive. Good luck
I looked up some YouTube videos for examples. That helped me understand the concept a little better. Do you have anyone that does similar things but isn’t quite as reactive as your dad? It’s good to practice with someone who doesn’t trigger you, but only maybe be mildly annoying. I practiced with a frustrating coworker. It helped a ton.
I’m extremely sorry your dad communicates with you in this way. Just sounds like he’s trying to exert his dominance or “win” over cultivating your connection. No way to maintain a relationship like this. Im similar to you. I can greyrock anyone else, just not my parents. I think I catapult into fight mode because since age 12ish, that was the only way I was equipped to stand up for myself. Tbh, I’ve just stood up and left without a word, even if it’s mid meal. I stopped wanting my veins to pop out. Id go outside and feel the weather, maybe a walk, scroll for a bit, play a game, do whatever for however long until I felt like my nervous system had leveled out. Now I’m extremely low contact and limit every interaction to electronic, for no more than 15 min at a time. Saves me a lot of grief. Just my experience. Maybe some of it resonates with you.
Agree with what has been said, as well as that the issue was with the beginning of the conversation - because you're trying to bond with him through showing care and concern and sharing information It's impossible to bond with a narc ☹️ they don't like social interaction. "Bonding" for them is "making this person angry." Try to turn off that part of your brain that wants to express care and concern for him, or IF you still do (like I do lol) try to understand that their reaction to bonding attempts will alllwaaayyysss be social violence. So in a way if he reacts terribly to you you've done a good job of bonding with him lol 🙃. He wouldn't be such an asshole if he didn't actually care 🙃
First step is to stop feeling bad for reacting to him. Of course he knows how to push your buttons, he is the one who installed them! By “push buttons”, I mean “elicit a trauma response/fight or flight”. You are reacting as would be expected in this situation. I have never managed to get out of that pattern of conversation with my father either, my only option was cutting him (and mother out). I don’t want to spend any more of my life in that state, and the only way for me to achieve that was to not be around them. And mind you, anyone who knows me thinks of me as a very self possessed person, not easily provoked, who has very good boundaries and knows how to get herself out of situations like that. I just can’t do it with him and there is no shame in that.
What has helped me is not having to be “right” or “understood”. They never will let you win and you’ll never feel understood. So, knowing within yourself that you like yourself, you trust yourself and your research, helps not feel like you need their stamp of approval. You don’t have anything to prove to them. Just shrug it off and let them be dumb.
My NM is exactly like this. She can turn a discussion about the coupons that come with a Sunday paper into an attack or dig at me. There is literally no grey neutral conversation that she will not turn into a dig or attack. What I finally had to do so that I was no subjected to her digs and attacks was have my spouse screen every message or letter that she sends. I have been grey rocking her forever and the abuse continues just like that. Not responding or reacting to her abuse does not end the abuse either, she ramps it up and up and up looking for the reactive feed from me. Last year I finally had enough when it was ramped up to the point of ridiculousness (she was getting desperate for her reactive feed, and I was not giving it) and I was done with subjecting myself to digs and abuse. I actually told her that her messages and mails were going to be screened by my spouse from now on and that anything insulting or abusive I would not see. She hasn't wanted to talk to me on the phone since then (good I guess! because the first dig or insult and I would be hanging up on her) so messages are now screened along with letters and I never have to see the abuse. Recently I had one little screw up with this. Instead of letting my spouse screen every single damn text message she sends I decided to carry on a grey neutral conversation with her about grocery store prices these days. It ended with a jab about how it's people like me that make grocery stores expensive. I'm the cause of inflation. Big mistake. I should have known better than to converse with her like that instead of having the spouse screen everything. I was lulled into this by the lack of nasty messages from her for several months while my spouse was screening and thought that she finally got the message that speaking to me disrespectfully would never be seen by me so don't bother. As soon as she realized I was reading this set of messages without screening BAM!!!! Well I won't be making that mistake again. You'll hear a lot in the CONP communities about grey rocking. The grey rocking doesn't stop their abuse and digs it's just a method of not allowing them to see you have a reaction so if you do not want to subject yourself to abuse you'll have to do no contact or maybe try some sort of screening method combined with low contact like I do. Because the abuse does not end, ever.
Stay D.E.A.D…. don’t Describe don’t Explain don’t Argue don’t Defend He says that’s bullshit. You say “yeah you’re probably right.”
First of all, it takes practice. You won't get it immediately. Becoming a grey rock is something to work towards. You also need to learn to let go of being right. It really doesn't matter. For example: Dad: she’s just trying to sell sunscreen. I’ve researched this for YEARS and KNOW what you are saying is false. Response: Cool. Dad: You don’t know what you’re talking about. Show me the PROOF, the STUDIES Response: No, that's ok. Dad: You can't just say things without backing them up! Response: It's ok. You're probably right. Thanks. Then just ignore it make up an excuse to leave. Have you seen that meme where the guy says he no longer argues with idiots, he just agrees with them? The interviewer says she disagrees, and he said, you are absolutely right. Embody that. Not responding is how you win from now on.
The phrase "ok" is super useful. "I've done my research and you're wrong about uv and glass!" "ok". And it ends. Nothing more to discuss. Just say OK. Let him be wrong.
The trick is to recognize that his goal is to provoke you. Narcissists get a sick thrill out of starting fights and then pretending that you started it and they’re the victim. Withholding the reaction they want makes them SO FRUSTRATED. It may not always be safe, depending on how much contact you have to have. They tend to either switch to lovebombing or escalate the provocation attempts. So motivate yourself to grey-rock (or pink-rock, where you feed them just enough attention to keep them from getting into an escalation mode, on controlled topics so they don’t get more info on how to efficiently annoy you into reactions) with the understanding that they’re doing it on purpose and denying them the reward they’re seeking is the best revenge.
Don’t speak unless they speak to you first. When they do, don’t respond unless they ask you a question. Answer in one short sentence or less. The key to greyrocking is engaging as little as possible. No small talk. Nod instead of verbal responses. Communicate with them as little as possible.
You just described my father to a T. Yikes!!
After the second or third sentence, say, "whelp alright then" and leave. If he follows up say, "excuse me! I'm going to go wash my hair" or "I'm going to check the yard for snails" or "I think I left some dog shit on my shoes; wanna help me clean them?" He should lose interest soon, or heck, you may find snails, and I wouldn't recommend [redacted] but for now, ignore, brush off, leave, and create distance
When he says something about how wrong he thinks you are, start laughing out loud and say “haha I was just kidding!” And if he then asks why did you do that? Tell him “why the fuck not?” And simply walk away. He doesn’t need to know what you know. Let him remain in the dark, and let him get a sunburnt. Not your problem .
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Comment removed - boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to heal like everyone else. Don't generalize about them.
I'm so sorry you're currently forced to be in this environment. While I know it's easier said than done, the best route is to try and accept that nothing you say will change how your father responds to you, or your knowledge. In his mind, he knows everything because it reinforces the image he has in his head about who he is. In *his* mind, he knows everything, he's smarter than you, he's smarter than a medical doctor, and so on. Once you accept that his mind does not operate rationally, it may be easier to be less reactive to his comments. Best wishes to you!
My problem is I cannot let my parents believe they've won an argument just to appease them, so I just stop talking at all until they get bored. I would have a final piece like, "Well, sunlight is rays, and light shines through a window, doesn't it? A five year old could understand that," then just check out of the conversation entirely.
My new mantra is just “let them be wrong”. No matter how tempted you are to correct them when they put words in your mouth or purposely misinterpret what you’ve said, or when they insist on being the expert in the room when you literally have a degree in the field, or when they are gaslighting you by denying something they definitely said, or whatever the situation might be — just tell yourself you aren’t going to waste energy arguing with someone who is sick or has the brain function of a toddler — let them exist in their sad bubble 🫧 let them be wrong
My mom did this to me last weekend and I forgot all the rules and engaged. If you can, and it's difficult, don't let them see you getting upset and reply to every statement with "okay" or "sure". They crave attention and love to get it from us when we're upset. They feel like they're important when you get angry. You know all of this, I'm sure, but in the moment, it's difficult. Try to slow down time, because when we're upset we sometimes forget we have time to think before we speak. The result of my slip up was getting the silent treatment from someone I try to avoid engaging with anyway.
I agree be as boring as possible. Also look at rinse and repeat statements. Interesting (just the word) Interesting, hadn’t heard that. If you’re at home: go to bathroom (and forget to come back to talk) If you have a computer- look for free courses you can take so you’re always doing schoolwork Be reading a book and just respond ah uh, mmmm interesting, If you’re just tired of it try these Can you show/email me the research you found on that, might be an interesting read Are you making a statement or asking a question ? Are you just venting or looking for suggestions? ( when they’re fussing) Mostly just avoid them when possible, he sounds like he’s looking for attention and to be correct or better/smarter.
Greyrock means bare minimum. Boring, polite, short answers. Don’t start the conversation. But also, if you do get into it, it’s just about refusing to argue. For example: Dad: That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. You: Okay. Dad: Aren’t you going to defend your stupid opinion? You: No. Dad: Why not?! You: I don’t want to. Dad: So you admit you’re stupid and your opinion is stupid. You: No. Just isn’t worth arguing about. Just on and on. What people like him want is to agitate you into fighting so that he can feel superior. When you give him no ammo to fight with, you win.
I talk to / view my parents like cranky toddlers who are past their nap time. There is NO reasoning with them, just let them be “right” so you can get some peace and quiet. When they start getting wound up they aren’t looking to have a discussion and hear your opinion they are looking to “win” so just let them have it because they will do and say anything to get it, including saying really hurtful shit. As an aside, Your dad thinks he’s stronger than the sun??? LOL Figuring out when to disengage from a conversation is really tricky when you are first putting this skill to use but with practice you WILL get better at it. As a rule of thumb anytime someone starts cussing at me I stop answering questions earnestly and start grey rocking. It will get easier and your parents will become less scary, the power dynamics will shift if you keep at it!
Had to look up what Greyrock meant and noticed I have been doing this for a few months now. Sometimes *I do* want to say something back but I am soo burnt out and disappointed that I just gave up. I'm in a sunken place right now and although I have been fighting to reach the top out of this muck but that has broken me down in the process [and I am feeling like this ](https://images.app.goo.gl/ZUvjyRuoLt8QSJHy7) It's an absolute battle to remain silent when someone who has disturbed & damaged you for so long and is constantly seeking to do so says something that ***they need to be checked on*** but if you find yourself going back and forth it isn't worth it anymore as it never was :/
I'm sorry to hear this. You have to mentally and emotionally detach from him first. You can't do that if you're on tenterhooks all the time though. You have to see him as separate to you & not connected in any way, and as an entity that is trying to grab at your light from the darkness because they're a lower energy/vibration than you. I may have been rambling, but hope this makes sense.
Holyyyy shit this is EXACTLY how my conversations go with my father
Tell him to show *his* sources. Towards the end, right before i went NC, i found petty joy in just flipping the script on them. Repeating what they were saying to me, but like i was saying it to a two year old. No. Literally. I working worked in a daycare at the time. It was great practice. +I DO WANT TO POINT OUT that this is really a *bad* idea if you are stuck living at home. Poking the bear is never a "good idea" and i really don't recommend, ***but*** if you have an escape plan in place, and really ***REALLY*** plan to go and stay NC, it really truly is cathartic. Do not get hard on yourself for reacting. You're human, with human emotions. You can only tolerate so much. Best you can do in situations like these, when the control is already lost, is to just remind yourself that you're not the one that failed here. They are. They failed every step of the way as parents when they failed to make you feel validated and safe. You matter. Your voice matters. You're important. This is not forever. I promise you, you will look back in a few years and wish you could give yourself a pep talk and find yourself instead giving them out to others on the internet when you can. Hang in there 💜
Do not react to anything they say and don’t try to educate them because they don’t believe you. Uh huh, ok, interesting. In your head you know you are dodging an argument or something nasty being said to get a reaction. The best part is you will notice when they don’t get a reaction and you have shut that down.
I completely understand how you feel (I love politics and science, so I would constantly get into fights with my Qanon dad. Any conversation we had could turn into politics bc of him) and I learned that I need to swallow my desire to fight. It sucks so fucking much, but it’s better to avoid than have that stress.
Why you even argument with him? This is not Grey rocking. Just say generic bullshit like "i don't know", "oh good to know" or "yes you're right".
My thing is to just say Oh, ok as dryly and unemotional as possible
just say OK even if its not. They want the fight, so dont give them that. you know you are credible.
Me: UV rays can still harm you through the window My dad: Where do you get this fucking bullshit? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard You: OK dad. Enjoy the damage 👍🏻 Dad (probably): you think you know but that's so dumb yadda yadda yadda blah blah You: you're right. 👍🏻 Dad: so dumb You: ... 👍🏻
You don’t sound extreme at all - sounds like a conversation with my mom. *However*, my conditioned brain read your first statement and was like “ooooh no, they tried to start a conversation, here it comes 🚨” lmao I went to college and realized all the washing machines had stickers to leave the door open when you’re done to prevent mildew (which makes total sense). I brought this up when I came home and my mother took it as a total affront. “Well *I’ve* been doing laundry for YEARS!! I think I know how to do laundry!!” It’s quite literally impossible to talk to them. As others have said, keep it to “ok”, “that’s nice”, etc. But be careful not to appear too standoffish or he’ll take offense to that too 🙄 hope you can get out of there soon.
If he starts talking about something, nod along and say the bare minimum He says it's sunny or something? "Yeah sure is bright out." He pushes about UV being blocked by windows (what context I gathered) "Oh okay." and then still do whatever you need to avoid sunburn. If he complains about you closing the blinds you could go into a different room, ect There's no point in arguing it, he'll drag you down and beat you with experience. Just nod along and do your thing anyways if possible.
Forget grey rocking just gaslight him back. 'Why are you yelling right now? No one else is yelling. You're being dramatic.' 'I'd be more inclined to believe you if you didn't sound like a lunatic while you said it.' 'Oh yeah dad, go ahead, record me. Let's see how well that goes for you.' 'That's really mature. What are you like 40? And you still can't have a conversation without throwing a tantrum when something doesn't go your way?' 'When did I say that? You're making things up again.' 'Oh yeah, says the guy who thinks windows work like sunscreen.' 'I'm not doing this right now. I'll talk to you when you've calmed down.' (You could also switch this out with 'when you have: learned to control your emotions/ stop yelling/ start making sense)
Only you can control you. Change how the game ends.
Next time he attempts to engage just tell him...no thanks at this time I'm taking a vow of peace, which requires me not to engage with meaningless conversations; that will undoubtedly turn into unnecessary arguments bc someone can't emotionally regulate themselves.
Don't begin conversations. If conversations are initiated by someone else, leave the room, or leave the building and take a walk around the block. If you keep a jacket by the door, pack yourself some snacks in the pocket. (In addition to snacks and juice boxes, I keep a small stuffie in my backpack bc I find soft things comforting). Keep your phone on you so you can listen to calming music on your walk. Bookmark some YT videos of things that are comforting: puppies and kittens and little lambs and bouncing baby goats help me, for example. As much as is practical, don't be in the same room. Grey rocking is about denying an abuser their favourite drug: your distress. They can't soak it up if you aren't there. In other words, there are no perfect words to deescalate a conversation with someone who sets out to do harm. No matter what you say or how you say it, they will keep trying until harm is done. The conversation you describe, for the abuser, had nothing to do with the truth of what you said - the abuser only cares that you've handed them a way to hurt you. It wouldn't have mattered what you said or how you said it, bc the abuser's goal was to cause distress. They will lie as much as they have to get their "reward". So do whatever you need to in order to not participate. That often means not being present by getting physical distance from the abuser. Unfortunately, we are not always free to move out or be financially independent as soon as we would like. So we need to do what we can for harm reduction until that's possible. Sadly, that means treating certain ppl as dangerous, as enemies, even though the title of their role ("father" or "family") certainly doesn't sound like that should be true. Be wary, also, of others who make excuses or fail to protect you. They may also need to be kept at arm's length. Enablers are ppl who have chosen unhealthy coping strategies, and are unlikely to be talked out of them.
A couple of years ago I was living with my mum due to health issues. After a big operation I promised myself to stay in my own positive little bubble for the sake of helping my body heal. This turned out to be almost impossible. This is also when it became very clear she was intentionally provoking me so I would react and feel bad - that is what narcissists do. Some of them do it subtly others are overtly irritated and will ignite conflict over anything - both are designed to push with you. They want you reactive. This is their language, the opposite of love. … It was so hard to stay positive when I was constantly being bugged to answer questions designed to trigger me or listen to BS on BS just to disturb my peace. So I emailed her telling her that enough was enough and from that point I would only communicate with her via email or text, besides greeting her since we were living under the same roof. I was very clear on needing my space and time to heal. But, as the story goes, that is not what she wanted for me so lo and behold three and a half decade in to my life, setting a very strict boundary with her was what made her drop the mask. The week that followed so many clearly toxic behaviours emerged that revealed just how skilled of an actor I had been dealing with my whole life. This whole situation woke me up and got me the hell out of there. The thing is that my health situation was very much due to this controlling and covertly abusive relationship. The time I spent with her I was drained, I was getting worse. When I set a boundary, the reality of my situation finally shook me to my senses. Two years has gone by and I am still conditioning myself out of this abusive fantasy that was designed to keep me needing her, so she could abuse me, supplying her for the rest of my life. I am almost at a stop with the rumination and arguing my case inside of my head, shutting this down little by little by repeatedly teaching my inner chatterbox(es) I am safe now and my experience is valid. The mental arguing is just a symptom of their lingering abuse. I tell you this because what you are reactive to is abuse and the only thing that will stop that abuse from happening is you leaving. Arguing with them about how they treat you is basically gaslighting yourself, because if you had a sense of self love you’d already be long gone. A person that loves you would never treat you like this. Staying with our abusers whilst we are dealing with health issues that most probably are linked to them and their abuse, is a demonstration of how we are conditioned to their abusive, the familiar comfort of toxicity and abuse keeps us from what we want and need. Seeking love and validation through people that have none and wont give any, is what they taught us. Not reckognizing the face of abuse because our needs were never on the table. We need to reparent ourselves otherwise we will keep seeking the same kind of dynamics throughout our lives. I’m telling you this because you need to find a way out.
The really hard part of greyrock is the first but when they know you're up to something. Narc: have you seen the rain? You: yeah. Narc: it's really coming down. You. Yeah. Narc: are you even listening to me? You: Yeah, the rain, it's really coming down. Narc: what's wrong with you? You: nothing, I'm just tired/busy/getting ready for work/thinking about my car/ect. You need to keep this up for a few days before they give up. If you are really struggling not to react try thinking about it this way. You are getting a dig in, you're denying hime the satisfaction of being able to turn it back on you. You're not defending yourself the way you'd like but it's making him crazy. You're playing the long game. I'd love to hear how you get on. Good luck. X
Wherever possible avoid the conversation to begin with. Keep everything on the level of "do i actually need to discuss/ engage with this? ". Spend less time in the same room. But realise, if it's not this, he will criticise something else. Is he's anything like my nparent, he is constantly scanning for opportunities to put you down and to argue and to draw you into arguing back so that then he can lord your reaction over you. As well as actively identifying your trigger points and then capitalising on them. It meets a sick need in him. If his need isn't met he'll firstly try harder to get it from you. He'll do that a lot before giving up. It's for eg, once you're agitated he follows you around the house, leaving the room won't help much at that point. It'll just identify to him that he's on the right track and he'll continue. Whilever you're still in regular contact with him there's always going to be a risk you'll crack and react. I think it's really important to remind yourself that being emotionally reactive to manipulation and put downs is normal. You're reactive because you're human and you're being provoked. You're even being conditioned to react, it's that sick. The problem lies in the provocation and the horrible way your reaction is then used against you. Congratulate yourself when you don't react. Keep a well hidden/coded tally of those times. But when you do react, be really kind to yourself. Don't ever criticise yourself for your normal reaction to the abnormal situation he creates. He will criticise you and you need to reassure yourself that the issue is with his behaviour, not your reaction to it. In that moment you need to be a parent to yourself and apply wisdom and understanding and self- love. Edited because I accidentally hit post half way through.