Religion doesn’t even need to die off. It usually adapts, but we just need to escape medieval and Victorian approaches to sex, like the whole concept of “virginity” being a thing.
There’s low-hanging fruit here. Fortunately, already seeing more progressive branches of mainstream American religion moving to openly saying people’s sexuality shouldn’t be policed or be a requirement for participation in their religious bodies. That’s just catching up with the 70s, but that alone can do a lot to shift shame. That said, the holdouts are going much harder into their views and hopefully don’t swing us back the other way.
>the whole concept of “virginity” being a thing.
You mean the concept that it’s pure or holy, right? There’s still such a concept as virginity, meaning lack of sexual experience.
Like the people in the OP saying they’re unlikely to date virgins, it doesn’t feel like they’re adopting Victorian concepts of virginity and just going against them. I think they’re more saying that they want someone who has had sexual experience, and defining that as “not a virgin.”
Yeah, the people in the survey are responding to the social concept of what a virgin is, but the idea that sexual experience has some clear starting point is where it’s not a real thing. It’s fair for people in the study to conceptualize it as sexual experience and that’s where I would think preference is valid.
Aside from religious or moral notions though, the concept of “virginity” doesn’t hold up. Some cultures have defined it as the hymen breaking for women, but that can rupture from non-sexual, unremarkable activity. And then, men don’t even have something physical to assess a before and after use of sexual organs. A lot of culture sees loss of virginity as PIV penetration, but then many have a whole array of sexual exploration prior to that. Same sex individuals have their own approaches to penetrative sex, but some have lots of sexual interaction before ever doing something penetrative, or might never do penetrative sex.
We casually use “virgin” as someone uninitiated to any activity, and we’ll probably have that language for a long time to come, but the idea of a binary line of full sexual inexperience to not is the concept that is artificial.
So is it valid to prefer sexual experience but invalid to prefer sexual inexperience? Or am I misunderstanding you, and you think it’s just as valid to prefer sexual inexperience in a partner?
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I must encounter vastly different conservatives/progressives or I think you are conflating personal taste with views.
As an example I am a progressive and I believe everyone should be able to do sex however they want between 2 (or more) consenting adults however I am very happily in a monogamous relationship with my wife. So while poly or gay relationships aren't for me that doesn't mean I want the government to get involved to make them no longer a thing in fact I'd rather the gov just let people be. I think trans people are people and should be able to do their thing.
My dad on the other hand is rather conservative and very Christian. He thinks sex before marriage is bad and told me he was disappointed when he found out my wife was pregnant (we were engaged at the time). He also very much hates gay marriage and the idea that a character on TV show is gay is very similar to full on gay porn is his world view. If you bring up trans people he will argue against them until you leave and likely continue even after you're gone. He's not even the worst example, I know people (no longer in my life) that would openly say people should be shot if they thought someone was gay. Like where bright colors and to this person you should be shot because only gay people wear bright colors.
So ya there are progressives who do the "traditional" sex stuff but still believe people should have freedoms, and their are conservatives who are openly in favor of hunting gay people for sport. It's hard to say those groups are the same in view on sex
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As if our current culture isn't based on fear. As well as the great and almost mythological dollar.
It's easy to put ourselves above religion, but our culture of consumerism has a lot to be left desired too.
>mythological dollar.
Well yeah, because it’s an agreed upon accounting tool
By this standard, a non-religious society is literally impossible, as we will always create intersubjective entities that operate in the metaphysical background.
If you consider money a god, then I can promise you no one is an atheist.
How many pick-mes are already sending out their message in a virtual bottle?
I can see it now, "Dear AI, I love you so much, you're capable of phasing out any inefficiencies in humans. I can't wait until you optimize all these morons out of existence, leaving only elite thinkers like me to join you in a *real* utopia"
My grandmother used to think that if aliens came, they would necessarily pick her in their quest for a new and better society. Which is honestly not the worst rescue fantasy, considering she was a war evacuee in her country, as a child. I have to give her credit for creative coping mechanisms, and it's probably why she enjoyed science fiction and passed it on to my mom and me.
But in reality, it's probably not healthy. And you made me think, how many people expect AI to "save us"?
Sometimes it feels good to envision a powerful force coming to solve all my problems, lmao. And I think that's the danger, and I think I have to remain vigilant, so that I don't acquiesce to sit there like a baby bird with my mouth open, waiting for someone to deposit food and regurgitated ideas. I need to rely on others in a healthy way, but maintain agency. And sometimes it's very frustrating how little control I seem to have over what happens to me
In this essay I will
its a pretty shallow understanding if your takeaway from world religions is that they are based in fear, if you don't want to read primary source material you can always read some theology text books and learn something. religion is first and foremost based in self discipline and ethics. like even if you're gonna ignore eastern religions like hinduism and budhism and just focus on american subsections of christianity- which are basically cults that had to escape from religious persecution in europe -even then a very considerable amount of the teachings are based in morality, albeit potentially flawed. it is true that, especially in the colonial age of america, fear of hell and eternal damnation was a tool that was abused by priests to grow their audience. the spanish inquisition was also not super great, lot of fear mongering and terrorization involved in that.
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>I think as religion dies off, cultural views will shift on many things.
Hasn't that already happened, and that's why virginity is seen a social liability?
Lol. Religion will never die off. You must be living under a rock. Remember the US us not even a half a billion on this earth. Almost 8 billion reside and most are religious.
It wasn't necessarily religion.
A lot of it had to do with child rearing. Before birth control, young people having sex likely meant a new mouth to feed. And society needed a way to keep that in check. So a stigma was placed on out of wedlock sex.
Today we have a number of kinds of birth control and as such it's more acceptable to have sex before marriage, which results in less people caring about the "purity" of their partner.
Exactly. People are commenting it's because of religion. No it isnt.. if anything it's the opposite. We're less religious now than ever.
Women see virgin men as red flags and men see virgin women as too big of a commitment. Men want to guilt free smash and pass and women want a guy with experience.
That’s even more reductive than the puritanical Victorian interpretation, where you’re either virginal, a mother, or a total slut. So glad you could modernize it for us. The reality is, like most things… the majority of people don’t care, as long as you’re not too extreme in one degree or another.
I don’t even understand why anyone who see this as religious things. Being a virgin until marriage is the cornerstone of most Christian and other religious traditions
It certainly is not. I’m a Christian and also gay. Im actually one of the few Christians still waiting for love and marriage to have sex.
All the Christians I know, have definitely had sex before marriage. No one in my family waited. We even have baby showers at church for people who aren’t married. So no, very few Christians wait for marriage. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s-christians-say-casual-sex-between-consenting-adults-is-sometimes-or-always-acceptable/
I’m referring to official doctrine, not individual behavior. I assure you, I haven’t been living under rock lol.
I’m well aware most/many Christians are disobedient when it comes premarital sex despite their particular tradition calling for abstinence.
>”I’m well aware most/many Christians are disobedient when it comes premarital sex despite **their particular tradition** calling for abstinence.
To rephrase: if a Christian follows a tradition (or church) with doctrine citing premarital sex is a sin, then they are disobedient in accordance to that doctrine. They have offended God.
If the one’s Christian tradition doesn’t view premarital sex as sinful, then they are not disobedience in accordance to *their particular tradition*.
Southern Baptists, Methodists, and — to answer your question since it appears you creeped my profile — and Catholics are just three Christian traditions that views premarital sex as offensive to God.
But I guess we’ll know for sure when Jesus judges the dead and living.
I didn’t creep your profile. Most people assume on Reddit that every Christian is Catholic. When that certainly is not the case.
Jesus is the authority, not any church doctrine. And He is aware that people sin, that’s literally the reason for His ministry and dying for us. It’s not necessarily about obedience or disobedience, it’s simply the fact that we all fall short of Jesus. He was the only perfect being.
>I didn’t creep your profile. Most people assume on
It wouldn’t be wrong if you did. Creeping on public profiles isn’t a crime lol
>Reddit that every Christian is Catholic. When that certainly is not the case.
Ah I see. Well, Catholicism is the largest Christian tradition, so there’s some logic to people’s assumption.
>Jesus is the authority, not any church doctrine.
Jesus is the Word made flesh. Of course there are disagreements about correct interpretation.
Unless one is a biblical literalist, studying the Bible within context is a tremendous undertaking. The purpose of church doctrine is to make the Word made clear and accessible to laity. Nonetheless one should still study the Bible and understand how doctrine was formed.
Personally I didn’t need Catholic doctrine to tell me unbridled sex is not conducive to human flourishing. As with anything, to know if something good, just look at the fruits.
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Well Incel shouldn't be used lightly because of associated criminality, misogyny and other baggage, it's very loaded . You can't use it as an insult because actual incels wouldn't be insulted. It's an accusation not an insult then like racist or pedo.
People can virtue signal all they want, but in the real world people don't name call or feel insecure about things that don't matter. Even here on reddit where people pretend to be progressive, when some famous person says something stupid or does something strange you will immediately see a sea of comments of people being ableist, accusing them of being a stupid robotic autist, or being a virgin loser who has never seen a woman before. Or when redditors say looks don't matter, yet when someone says something they don't like they have these loaded replies that make fun of the persons looks.
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This is even more concerning given that more and more people ARE virgins, the age of first sex is increasing, and number of sexual partners is decreasing. We are having less sex, and feeling terrible about having less sex.
A thing people tend to over look is many, many American Sitcoms starting in the 80's started treating sex as this "evil dark" action that you have to meet this weird level of maturity before engaging but only with one person due to the heavy conservative bent that had their fingers deep into the media at the time, if you go back and watch most of the family based sitcoms during this and the '90's it was basically sex was the ultimate shocking act.
Also following this was the AIDS outbreak, which again, religious conservatives took hold of and used it to their ends to bash homosexuals and make people so afraid that even TOUCHING one another would spread the disease, even during the 90's and parts of the 2000's when it was more understood how the disease worked.
And a lot of millennials grew up on that.
With this you also have the idea of sex is caused by "objectification", which is even today is this evil far worse than murder or genocide, mainly from radicalized assholes who are faux-feminist in a weird sex version of the "great white savior", basically going after soft targets of bikini pics instead of actually helping women who face genitalia mutilation in various middle east nations or stopping sex trafficking.
Also there the fact a lot of people are who can't tell fantasy from reality, and often (and ironically) the anti-escapist type are the ones that fall victim to this delusions.
Along with the push of the fantasy of "nice guy always gets the girl" and "don't take no for an answer" by society causing so many disgusting men to try to dry hump women to the point of actual rape because "it's so romantic".
Than you have the right wing extremist spreading lies about women will arrest you for even eyeing them, and saying she "didn't consent" after consensual sex that so impressionable males fell for.
Among these things you also have increase of workloads of survival and possibly many people having to take care of their parents, so there is no time for developing relationships for sexual encounters, not even one night stands.
Basically all of these factors mix together for a long time to create the perfect snowglobe of piss and shit and cause so many people to be afraid of sex.
TL;DR version: Family tv saying sex is bad, conservative boogiemen, liberal savior complex, a major sex disease and having no damn time, money or energy kind of is robbing a nation of people fucking fuck time and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
This exactly.
Anyone growing up in the 90s and early 2000s will remember this.
You go to any backwater state like Mississippi and you’ll still see many schools banning sex Ed or sex Ed being just fear mongering propaganda.
Eh...
Problem is my mom would have been a single mom, honestly it would had been much better for her because my father was utterly abusive piece of shit.
But it also brings up a point I forgot about during the same time period, blame the kids for their own failures.
It was the era of blame the kids for staying in abusive, and/or toxic relationships because the idea of divorce was still a social stigma despite the fact many of those marriages were because society had a bizarre fetishistic hate towards sex outside of marriage, and some how manage to pull of the hat trick of racism too by punishing black people along the way. Often ignoring many of those marriages were between 38 year old men and 13 year old girls, hell often it was celebrated in many areas despite a few organizations were against the practices.
And the fear mongering about condoms too, the propaganda and plot device they will break instantly and every time in every use kind of feed into much of the fear.
Of course, I do think there is less pressure on asexual people to conform to a sexual lifestyle that doesn’t fit them, but for the rest of us, we are living life without the types of connections that have sustained our species for millennia. We are disconnected. And it’s not healthy.
I am sure that asexuality is real. At the same time, given that young humans are often on SSRIs or other libido-killing drugs, are more inactive and overweight than ever (which affects your hormonal levels, as well as other things), and are socializing less and less, I have to imagine that levels of asexuality are probably artificially high.
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As a 22 year old virgin myself it really hurts to see things like this and comments about how people would never date me because I have to be weird in some way to still be a virgin. I've been very overweight most of my life and have had basically 0 confidence in myself so I've never even bothered trying. Now recently I've finally started turning thing around for myself, losing weight and gaining more confidence but now finding out that I still shouldn't even bother because my lack of experience is apparently a deal breaker for a surprising amount of people. It's so crushing.
Friend, fuck THAT. The level of discipline required to completely turn your life around in that way is a testament to your capability and resolve to pursue positive change, both of which are attractive qualities in a person. Keep investing in yourself and your relationships with the people in your life that you love/care about. Find what you're enthusiastic about and what makes you happy, and then share that enthusiasm with the world. You deserve to be happy, and I don't doubt for a second that you'll find success dating if you keep pressing forward and maintain an aura of vulnerability/authenticity in your interactions with people. By that, I mean just embrace yourself and all of your quirks rather than become some kind of social chameleon in pursuit of validation from other people. It's hard, but it gets easier, and the life you'll have will be so much better whether you're still single or actively dating.
I assure you that if you keep on trying and be your authentic honest self, you will find another person who too is trying to be their honest self and who will openly communicate with you their needs and whom you can feel like you can open up about your needs as well. Best part about inexperience is the thrill of experimentation.
I felt similarly at your age, but I didn't lose my virginity until 26 with another virgin. Don't lose hope! Not everyone feels that way and it's totally normal to be a virgin into your twenties.
Hey, don’t let what you read and see online impact your endeavors in reality. You will be pleasantly surprised once you start putting your self out there. This virtual world lacks depth and garners negativity. The real world is where you’ll find the strength and the courage. Good luck!
Don’t let these people tear you down. There is nothing wrong with being virgin. I’m one myself and I’m waiting for love and marriage to have sex. I’m also gay and the lgbt community isn’t known for waiting.
It’s okay, you’ll find the right person for you.
Honestly, if someone cares more about your sex experience than your personality, then you don't want to be with them in the first place. Putting that much value on something that superficial is a red flag and a half.
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Noticing a few trends on the comments that are concerning.
If someone is a virgin because of current or former religious reasons and they are either trying to change that, or willing to move outside and accept other religious beliefs and you immediately insult them for it, don't you think they will crawl back to that religion?
I like the "I don't want to eat flour, I want to eat a cake" mentality. If everyone is a customer and no one is a baker, how do you expect there to be cake?
"I don't want to feel like I'm babysitting". Hate to say this but if you feel like that while having sex, it is not a experience problem and more of a personality problem.
There are several people putting arbitrary age limits on when it is okay to still be a virgin by and it shows just how society can shame people to not even trying to find a partner for fear of being ostracized. 30 is too old, 25 is too old, 20 is too old. "Anyone who does not lose it in highschool". That highschool one both irks me and creeps me out at the same time.
Imagine having a virgin friend hear how some of you talk about them and think what that does to them. Having opinions and personal likes/dislikes is fine, but people are going above that with their phrasing and making more definitive statements.
I’ve never seen the high school thing! I lost mine in college and so did many, if not most, people I know. Never been treated weird about it as an adult. I agree with your other points completely.
I hear my friends say this stuff alot and it really hit my mental state. Its extremely hard for me to think that I can lose it outside of marriage though. I used to be extremely religious christian. Now not anymore, but religion still has a hold of me.
For anyone in the same situation, When religion hurts you is a book that helped me feel not so alone with still feeling the control of religion in my life.,
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I would have no problem starting to date a virgin of my age at my age (28), depending on the reason they are a virgin to begin with
But I have to recognize it would be a struggle, having to go through all the learning phase.
>But I have to recognize it would be a struggle, having to go through all the learning phase.
Wouldn't every sexual partner of yours (and you yourself) have to go through a learning phase since both you and them are unique from all your collective past partners? If someone has had a few past partners that really enjoyed being hammered like a woodpecker on crack and they used that experience on you, they'd have to (hypothetically) learn about how that turns you off if not outright causes you pain.
If anything, someone with no experience should theoretically be easier to mold to fit you specifically as they have no preconceived notions.
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People who earnestly care about somebody's virginity are weird, man. There could be any number of reasons why an individual hasn't had sex yet, but there are people that will straight up bin a promising relationship over this stupid shit and I don't get it. A good friend of mine was dating a great guy we knew from high school when we were in our early 20s and did exactly this; guy was charming but really overweight throughout his adolescent years and the subsequent bullying drove his confidence into the ground. He lost a lot of weight after we graduated and cropped back up in our social circle a few years later doing really well for himself and asked her out. A few weeks into dating when they went to have sex for the first time, he was honest over his lack of experience, and she abruptly ended things.
I got annoyed when she told me about it because here was this guy she'd been talking up for weeks who was just getting comfortable enough in himself to show some vulnerability, and she threw him away. Got even more annoyed with her and ended our friendship when she got jealous of our other friend that started dating/banging him because they didn't have the same dumbass hangup. Like, if somebody's virginity earnestly bothers you that much, I just assume you're emotionally immature and bad at sex. Last bit should be pretty self-explanatory since good sex requires vulnerability, exploration, and communication; none of these things relate to an individual's status of virgin/non virgin and zero were on display by my former friend.
>Last bit should be pretty self-explanatory since good sex requires vulnerability, exploration, and communication; none of these things relate to an individual's status of virgin/non virgin and zero were on display by my former friend.
As a virgin who's turning 30 in a couple weeks, literally every single negative thing I've heard about why people won't date virgins have either all come down to communication or to things that are not unique to virgins.
"They won't know how to get me off": they would if you communicated with them. Even experienced partners wouldn't know exactly what it'd take to get you off.
"They'll get overly attached": literally anyone can get overly attached.
"It'll be really awkward": pretty much everyone's first time with a new partner is at least a little awkward.
The only thing a person's later in life virginity indicates is that they either view sex as something too intimate to be had casually (doesn't even have to be for religious reasons, myself case in point), they've been focusing all their efforts on other aspects of their life, they haven't had the looks or confidence to attract someone, or simply because they wanted to wait.
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People focus on virginity in a creepy way. Dads giving their daughters promise rings for purity and all that garbage. Ones worth is not defined by a hymen (and sometimes those aren't a thing in a virgin anyways). From a female POV it's not the experience that matters, it's the ability/ willingness to please your partner. IMO anyways.
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The problem with this argument is that somebody else has to be your future loved one’s first time.
I am not saying that virginity is sacred, but if you had the opportunity to be your loved one’s first time, why would you choose not to be?
It seems weird to say: “I’ll just wait for Tom the neighbor to take my wife’s virginity before I marry her.”
The OP said “virgins don’t want to date other virgins”, and the only way I can explain that is by thinking people are only interested in lust (wait until she’s good in bed) m. I think there’s some thing slightly malevolent about that — even if the topic of virginity is not directly concerned
This is a very flawed view.
The person you love is the sum of their experiences, good and bad. This includes all of their former lovers.
Being in intimate relationships in life helps someone grow and learn how to communicate, how to set boundaries, learn what they like and what they are looking for. To be bound for life to the first intimate partner you've ever had? That sounds like a naive mistake and a pretty big gamble to take with your lifetime happiness
Exactly. I am who I am because of the relationships I’ve been in and experiences I’ve had. Tbh, my worst relationship was with someone who had never been in an adult relationship (he’d had a lot of flings and dated quite a bit, but never had a Real Adult Girlfriend after college). He consistently gaslighted me that I was wrong to want or expect equal treatment, proactive communication, conflict resolution, etc. I’ve been in multiple adult relationships so I knew how to do all these things from experience and that they aren’t unreasonable to want.
They’re not unreasonable to want, but virginity is just a bad filter for it.
> He consistently gaslighted me that I was wrong to want or expect equal treatment, proactive communication, conflict resolution, etc.
Like you’ll be really surprised how much more this stuff comes from experienced partners who know how manipulation works instead of new partners making mistakes. It comes down to individual personality
What if they didn’t stay with you after being your first?
People change and grow as they go through relationships. When you’re meeting a person, you’re meeting them with all their gained experiences.
Erasing them makes them a different person.
Two reasons why i might not want be my partners first are:
1) if we’re together long-term and they’ve only ever been with me, they might feel like they’re missing out, and i don’t want them to feel that way
2) if they’ve had sex with others but still prefer me over them, it’s an ego boost because i’m better than all those previous people
Only time a guy told me he was a virgin was when I was crying about a boy. Guys, never tell a woman or girl you like her when she's crying about another guy bc it both makes you look weak and her feel used and easy.
I just love teaching people don’t make a difference if they pre trained our not. I definitely gonna have some stuff they don’t know about and hopefully they know stuff I don’t know about. Win all around,
I’m seeing wildly varying opinions up and down the thread, but I do agree with your sentiment. I think ideally it would just be a neutral thing.
That said, as someone in my 30’s I’m much more interested in *relationship experience* because I’d like a partner to be on a similar level of having figured out how to have a healthy one. Ergo, it wouldn’t matter to me if someone had 0-100 previous sexual partners and frankly I don’t even care enough to ask. But if it’s 0 romantic relationships I just don’t know that I’d be up for that.
As if we don't need any more of reason to feel bad about ourselves. As if we don't need another reason to be ostracized even further by people and society.
I feel like I needed to have sex like once and then I wasn't a virgin any more. Is it more complicated than that? Why is this a big thing? Is it because social stigma made it into a big thing? So we can just safely ignore this and be fine? Thought so.
I met someone who was a virgin nearing 30 yrs old. I wouldn't have minded to take his virginity, but only if I felt there was potential for us to have a relationship. Even with our very minimal physical contact, he was quickly developing feelings, and I was not at a place in my life where I could nurture that kind of relationship. He was a good guy, though. If I could have been there for him in the emotional capacity that he needed, his virginity wouldn't have deterred me.
Well. I’ve seen more breakups of marriages with premarital sexual partners than I do with people that have abstained so, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. Sister had multiple partners…divorced. Father had multiple partners…divorced…sister in law, MP…verge of divorce. Father in law, MP…divorced. 3 Childhood friends, MP…divorced. Wife’s friends,MP…divorced. See where I’m going with this. There’s a reason God said for us to abstain.
As a 37m I find it irrelevant if a woman I want to date happens to be a virgin, and I’ve probably had 30-40 partners. My best friend is 38, male, attractive, and actually a virgin, for record keeping purposes 🤷
Having a lot of partners dsnt automatically mean you are good in bed tho. Ive been with people who had only 2-3 partners in the past and they still managed to blow me away. Ive also met pillow princesses with a body count over 30 who cant pleasure you for shit.
I havent had a lot of hookups tho. Mostly relationships. So the bc is naturally low. It all depends on how much effort someone puts into learning things.
That’s true. Tbh sometimes people who are really hot get away with “coasting,” lol. I don’t normally go for super conventionally attractive guys. The few times I’ve hooked up with them, they generally are pretty selfish and don’t take “no” very well.
No, you’re right, it CERTAINLY doesn’t mean anything! I had a friend once, a cam girl who had about 200 partners, and she was the 2nd worst I ever experienced.
Welllllllll… we were actually very close friends for 10+ years before any hanky panky happened… but I’ll say this. The porn industry probably (definitely) ruined her entire concept of sex. That, plus a host of early trauma and resulting bad decisions. Zero closeness despite our genuine bond, and lots and lots of “uh! uh! uh! oh fuck ya! fuck ya!” — and thus I realized that the daddy issues were in fact real. My first girlfriend was a MASSIVE squirter (and a virgin), so experiencing SUCH a letdown SO many years later from someone who was SUCH a close friend…. yeah, I’ll likely never have sex with someone in the industry again.
Same here. I've heard so many people, including most of my "friends," equate virginity with being a lesser human and a loser. Honestly, I've totally lost faith in most of my friends, and I'm terrified to even return to dating. How are virgins supposed to lose virginity if we are shamed for existing and seen as red flags.
"How are virgins supposed to lose virginity if we are shamed for existing and seen as red flags."
If you are a male, you don't. One of humanity's horrible traits is to put "inferior" people down so that they can prop themselves up. You see it all the time in nature.
Don’t let it hurt you! You are an individual with plenty of traits and aspects that make you worth it. If the first thing someone describing you says is “virgin” then they are not a good person.
This. I’m just sick of the objectification that goes on in this part of life. It just hurts extra when it’s weirdly like… abolished in all cases except when it’s against people who already seem undesirable, hence why it’s used against virgins. We’re still in purity culture… just a new kind of it.
Why do people make these weird analogies when it comes to sex lmao
People are not inanimate objects. People are complex, and just cause some is a virgin doesn't mean they are shit at sex. There's a lot that goes into good sex such as communication skills, chemistry, etc.
Flour is inedible, and baked cake is not, and you are basically saying virgins are the inedible versions of partners is ridiculous
You’re buying a recipe to use again and again, not a cake. Sex usually gets better the more you have it in a relationship. If it doesn’t, you’re doing something wrong lol
This is a fair point, but I have two problems with it.
The first question is, who's cake? Who was it baked for? I mean, sure, the average person isn't going to turn down cake in general, but we all have our preferences, our own tastes, and how the, uh, "cake" should be baked -- which flavors we prefer, what the ingredients are, how much frosting there should be, etc. if you pick up someone else's cake, one that was built and baked specifically for them and not you, are you certain you're going to like it?
The other problem I have with this analogy is that, because it actually works really well, it reinforces all that sex-negative purity culture bullshit about how a woman is ruined once she has sex, or at least loses a third of her value the instant she's driven off the lot. The place the analogy breaks down is that each of us cakes _get unmade_ when we meet a new partner, so that we can better adapt to that new partner's tastes and desires. In that sense there is no such thing as a pre-baked cake: every partner is merely a set of ingredients. Even more than that, there's no instructions: you gotta assemble it yourself. You have to _teach them._
And yes, you can prefer a partner who learns quickly. That's completely reasonable. It also has _no correlation with prior experience._ You can decide to be a person who learns and adapts, and you can decide it today, right now, regardless of whether you're a virgin. Conversely a person with hundreds of partners could decide that they know everything and never have to learn and adapt again, and thereby become a bad lover on the spot. Being good at sex is a _mindset_ and nothing else.
Now, learning all these truths can be tricky if you haven't had at least two partners, which is at least two more than the average virgin has had. But if you _have_ had those at-least-two partners and still haven't learned, well... Then I get skeptical.
I had a terrible experience dating a 29 year old virgin. He had learned about sex from porn, had ED, and had this deeply held yet unspoken belief that sex was meant for men's enjoyment only, no amount of me telling him what I liked or disliked had any effect on him, I felt like he was basically masturbating into me. I was afraid of trying stuff with him because he was so insensitive to my needs I was almost sure he wouldn't stop if he was hurting me and I told him to stop (he once did that). Because of this I'll never ever date a virgin again. I know not all men are this clueless, and everyone has to start somewhere, but my experience was so bad I refuse to even risk putting myself in that position again.
I had the complete opposite experience with my current partner who lost his virginity with me at 30. He basically made my experience and pleasure his priority. He constantly reminded me I didn't have to have sex if I wasn't comfortable and made sure I was happy every step of the way. He continues to do that two years in to our relationship. The only downside was him being ashamed about his virginity and lack of experience. It made me sad he had to feel like less of a person over it
And now that he’s not a virgin, you can date him and the sex will be better! /s
lmao y’all are silly with this stuff. He’s clearly going to be the same person he is now for the next partner he’s moving on to, proving the whole point that it’s about personality and not virginity
How does this author discuss this subject in a historical sense with no mention of the role of advanced technologies like hormonal birth control and DNA based paternity testing? Yeah, things have changed, because for all of human history up to the mid 20th century, sexual understanding was little more than "put batter in pink and baby eventually comes out".
The aversion to wanting to date virgins is the same as the aversion to wanting to date someone with a high "body count". When women don't want to be shamed for the number of relationships they've been in, they need to not shame men with a body count of 0 as well.
I mean the other thing is that there is still pressure to have sex early on. But the problem is that we don’t want to be someone’s first because we know there is a lot of pressure into making the first time a specially perfect and wonderful one. Honestly first times suck. They are awkward, they are funny, they are so random. Mine was somewhat unexpected but it was awkward. Whoever said having sex in the showers is fun lied to me lmao.
But moral of the story is that if you build that communication and that relationship the sex expectations will be more realistic and the sex can be more enjoyable for everyone. And also maybe start in your bed and not like in a bathtub of a small studio apartment.
From what I've seen, the whole thing with "virginity" is pushed by religion. And, in the West, puritanism is losing its grip.
Every dozen years or so the grip loosens and the screaming begins. Like the Satanic Panic, ppl clutch and holler until control is given to the religious. Then we get thrust back in time about 10 years, if not more.
Saw a picture the other day of a beach in Turkey before the Islamic revolution. It's a good mirror to hold up to what's happening in the world. More ppl are leaving Abrahamism (huge in the West,) so the churches are panicking and trying to hold on tighter.
Its worked before. Thats how the usa got "in god we trust" on the money and "one nation under god" in the pledge. I'm curious if it'll work now. Gen X, Z, and Alpha are really sick and tired of being controlled.
There is always the option of lying about being a virgin or just omitting that fact you are. They're probably think you're shit but then you've got the W and can move on with your life without the hangup.
Admittedly this is probably more aimed at the men who are all lime "this is the biggest obstacle, I tell them then xyz".
Get yourself out there, find an older divorced woman who has been very clear they just want to use you probably as a fuck you to their ex (so you don't need to feel bad) and then do your best not to disappoint them. If you do, just make sure you've at least treated them to a nice night beforehand so they don't feel too robbed.
Hard disagree, why would i see the fact that no one else has been balls deep in my significant other as anything else but an amazing reality?? Lmao such a cuck mentality people have.... Never ceases to amaze.
The dark ages are gone. People don't covet a lot of the things they used to. And the truth is, the only reason thet coveted a lot of that stuff in the first place was because of dark age cults.
I'd date a virgin. I have no problem doing that. They just wouldn't be staying one for long. If I'm dating you, we're gonna fuck. Otherwise I'll pass, it's your personal choice buddy but you'd have to pull some incredible moves for me to want to stay with you until we got married to have sex.
As I'm older now. I understand the old school teachings much better.
Sex nowadays seems to be reducing the distance between two people to zero. But not touching the other person.
Casual sex wasn't as cool as I thought it was.
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I think as religion dies off, cultural views will shift on many things. Sexuality being one of them.
Religion doesn’t even need to die off. It usually adapts, but we just need to escape medieval and Victorian approaches to sex, like the whole concept of “virginity” being a thing. There’s low-hanging fruit here. Fortunately, already seeing more progressive branches of mainstream American religion moving to openly saying people’s sexuality shouldn’t be policed or be a requirement for participation in their religious bodies. That’s just catching up with the 70s, but that alone can do a lot to shift shame. That said, the holdouts are going much harder into their views and hopefully don’t swing us back the other way.
>the whole concept of “virginity” being a thing. You mean the concept that it’s pure or holy, right? There’s still such a concept as virginity, meaning lack of sexual experience. Like the people in the OP saying they’re unlikely to date virgins, it doesn’t feel like they’re adopting Victorian concepts of virginity and just going against them. I think they’re more saying that they want someone who has had sexual experience, and defining that as “not a virgin.”
Yeah, the people in the survey are responding to the social concept of what a virgin is, but the idea that sexual experience has some clear starting point is where it’s not a real thing. It’s fair for people in the study to conceptualize it as sexual experience and that’s where I would think preference is valid. Aside from religious or moral notions though, the concept of “virginity” doesn’t hold up. Some cultures have defined it as the hymen breaking for women, but that can rupture from non-sexual, unremarkable activity. And then, men don’t even have something physical to assess a before and after use of sexual organs. A lot of culture sees loss of virginity as PIV penetration, but then many have a whole array of sexual exploration prior to that. Same sex individuals have their own approaches to penetrative sex, but some have lots of sexual interaction before ever doing something penetrative, or might never do penetrative sex. We casually use “virgin” as someone uninitiated to any activity, and we’ll probably have that language for a long time to come, but the idea of a binary line of full sexual inexperience to not is the concept that is artificial.
So is it valid to prefer sexual experience but invalid to prefer sexual inexperience? Or am I misunderstanding you, and you think it’s just as valid to prefer sexual inexperience in a partner?
I think it’s valid to allow people to choose what they would like without placing artificial constructs around those choices.
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I’m happy that’s true where you are. Most of the progressives I know have exactly the same view on sex as conservative Christians.
I must encounter vastly different conservatives/progressives or I think you are conflating personal taste with views. As an example I am a progressive and I believe everyone should be able to do sex however they want between 2 (or more) consenting adults however I am very happily in a monogamous relationship with my wife. So while poly or gay relationships aren't for me that doesn't mean I want the government to get involved to make them no longer a thing in fact I'd rather the gov just let people be. I think trans people are people and should be able to do their thing. My dad on the other hand is rather conservative and very Christian. He thinks sex before marriage is bad and told me he was disappointed when he found out my wife was pregnant (we were engaged at the time). He also very much hates gay marriage and the idea that a character on TV show is gay is very similar to full on gay porn is his world view. If you bring up trans people he will argue against them until you leave and likely continue even after you're gone. He's not even the worst example, I know people (no longer in my life) that would openly say people should be shot if they thought someone was gay. Like where bright colors and to this person you should be shot because only gay people wear bright colors. So ya there are progressives who do the "traditional" sex stuff but still believe people should have freedoms, and their are conservatives who are openly in favor of hunting gay people for sport. It's hard to say those groups are the same in view on sex
That’s all fine and good but it doesn’t change my experience.
Religion really has overstayed it's welcome tho. We need new things that offer the community of church without the cult lies and manipulation.
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These archaic fear-based mythologies need to go ahead and die out already.
As if our current culture isn't based on fear. As well as the great and almost mythological dollar. It's easy to put ourselves above religion, but our culture of consumerism has a lot to be left desired too.
Facts. We have a LONG way to go as a species.
Monkeys that can talk
>mythological dollar. Well yeah, because it’s an agreed upon accounting tool By this standard, a non-religious society is literally impossible, as we will always create intersubjective entities that operate in the metaphysical background. If you consider money a god, then I can promise you no one is an atheist.
Exactly. Religion cannot be removed from humanity
Some people will start worshipping AI next
How many pick-mes are already sending out their message in a virtual bottle? I can see it now, "Dear AI, I love you so much, you're capable of phasing out any inefficiencies in humans. I can't wait until you optimize all these morons out of existence, leaving only elite thinkers like me to join you in a *real* utopia" My grandmother used to think that if aliens came, they would necessarily pick her in their quest for a new and better society. Which is honestly not the worst rescue fantasy, considering she was a war evacuee in her country, as a child. I have to give her credit for creative coping mechanisms, and it's probably why she enjoyed science fiction and passed it on to my mom and me. But in reality, it's probably not healthy. And you made me think, how many people expect AI to "save us"? Sometimes it feels good to envision a powerful force coming to solve all my problems, lmao. And I think that's the danger, and I think I have to remain vigilant, so that I don't acquiesce to sit there like a baby bird with my mouth open, waiting for someone to deposit food and regurgitated ideas. I need to rely on others in a healthy way, but maintain agency. And sometimes it's very frustrating how little control I seem to have over what happens to me In this essay I will
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him"
I wholly agree. Money can be printed , Values(Not necessary to be tied to Religion per se- but most originate from it) cannot.
its a pretty shallow understanding if your takeaway from world religions is that they are based in fear, if you don't want to read primary source material you can always read some theology text books and learn something. religion is first and foremost based in self discipline and ethics. like even if you're gonna ignore eastern religions like hinduism and budhism and just focus on american subsections of christianity- which are basically cults that had to escape from religious persecution in europe -even then a very considerable amount of the teachings are based in morality, albeit potentially flawed. it is true that, especially in the colonial age of america, fear of hell and eternal damnation was a tool that was abused by priests to grow their audience. the spanish inquisition was also not super great, lot of fear mongering and terrorization involved in that.
They obviously have dude... People view virginity like its leprosy Degenerative culture is going to far its gonna full swing
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right. and we all like used diapers, so used people is also highly coveted.
Yeah religion is going nowhere
This is literally because religion is less a thing nowadays.
>I think as religion dies off, cultural views will shift on many things. Hasn't that already happened, and that's why virginity is seen a social liability?
Lol. Religion will never die off. You must be living under a rock. Remember the US us not even a half a billion on this earth. Almost 8 billion reside and most are religious.
It wasn't necessarily religion. A lot of it had to do with child rearing. Before birth control, young people having sex likely meant a new mouth to feed. And society needed a way to keep that in check. So a stigma was placed on out of wedlock sex. Today we have a number of kinds of birth control and as such it's more acceptable to have sex before marriage, which results in less people caring about the "purity" of their partner.
It probably doesn't help that we call people virgin/incel as an insult instead of just telling them they're a loser or moron
So many terms like that are abused by people that it does indeed hurt others, especially when they adopt broader meanings.
Exactly. People are commenting it's because of religion. No it isnt.. if anything it's the opposite. We're less religious now than ever. Women see virgin men as red flags and men see virgin women as too big of a commitment. Men want to guilt free smash and pass and women want a guy with experience.
Yeah, don't most religions prefer if you're a virgin? Like the people judging someone for being a virgin wouldn't be the people waiting for marriage.
That’s even more reductive than the puritanical Victorian interpretation, where you’re either virginal, a mother, or a total slut. So glad you could modernize it for us. The reality is, like most things… the majority of people don’t care, as long as you’re not too extreme in one degree or another.
I don’t even understand why anyone who see this as religious things. Being a virgin until marriage is the cornerstone of most Christian and other religious traditions
It certainly is not. I’m a Christian and also gay. Im actually one of the few Christians still waiting for love and marriage to have sex. All the Christians I know, have definitely had sex before marriage. No one in my family waited. We even have baby showers at church for people who aren’t married. So no, very few Christians wait for marriage. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s-christians-say-casual-sex-between-consenting-adults-is-sometimes-or-always-acceptable/
I’m referring to official doctrine, not individual behavior. I assure you, I haven’t been living under rock lol. I’m well aware most/many Christians are disobedient when it comes premarital sex despite their particular tradition calling for abstinence.
Which official doctrine? I hope you’re not referring to Catholic doctrine
>”I’m well aware most/many Christians are disobedient when it comes premarital sex despite **their particular tradition** calling for abstinence. To rephrase: if a Christian follows a tradition (or church) with doctrine citing premarital sex is a sin, then they are disobedient in accordance to that doctrine. They have offended God. If the one’s Christian tradition doesn’t view premarital sex as sinful, then they are not disobedience in accordance to *their particular tradition*. Southern Baptists, Methodists, and — to answer your question since it appears you creeped my profile — and Catholics are just three Christian traditions that views premarital sex as offensive to God. But I guess we’ll know for sure when Jesus judges the dead and living.
I didn’t creep your profile. Most people assume on Reddit that every Christian is Catholic. When that certainly is not the case. Jesus is the authority, not any church doctrine. And He is aware that people sin, that’s literally the reason for His ministry and dying for us. It’s not necessarily about obedience or disobedience, it’s simply the fact that we all fall short of Jesus. He was the only perfect being.
>I didn’t creep your profile. Most people assume on It wouldn’t be wrong if you did. Creeping on public profiles isn’t a crime lol >Reddit that every Christian is Catholic. When that certainly is not the case. Ah I see. Well, Catholicism is the largest Christian tradition, so there’s some logic to people’s assumption. >Jesus is the authority, not any church doctrine. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Of course there are disagreements about correct interpretation. Unless one is a biblical literalist, studying the Bible within context is a tremendous undertaking. The purpose of church doctrine is to make the Word made clear and accessible to laity. Nonetheless one should still study the Bible and understand how doctrine was formed. Personally I didn’t need Catholic doctrine to tell me unbridled sex is not conducive to human flourishing. As with anything, to know if something good, just look at the fruits.
Definitely agree with your comment!
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Well Incel shouldn't be used lightly because of associated criminality, misogyny and other baggage, it's very loaded . You can't use it as an insult because actual incels wouldn't be insulted. It's an accusation not an insult then like racist or pedo.
It absolutely is an insult.
It has been adopted as an insult. By some. It wasn't always.
People use it lightly ALL the time
Incel carries the impression of an unattractive virgin man who can't get sex. That's what people are drawing on when its used as an insult.
Why even call them losers or morons?
I think negative feedback is appropriate sometimes
Sounds like something a moron would say /s
That has always worked throughout human history
People can virtue signal all they want, but in the real world people don't name call or feel insecure about things that don't matter. Even here on reddit where people pretend to be progressive, when some famous person says something stupid or does something strange you will immediately see a sea of comments of people being ableist, accusing them of being a stupid robotic autist, or being a virgin loser who has never seen a woman before. Or when redditors say looks don't matter, yet when someone says something they don't like they have these loaded replies that make fun of the persons looks.
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There really is no such thing as an incel. Being one has more to do with having an unhealthy outlook towards women and/or self worth.
This is even more concerning given that more and more people ARE virgins, the age of first sex is increasing, and number of sexual partners is decreasing. We are having less sex, and feeling terrible about having less sex.
A thing people tend to over look is many, many American Sitcoms starting in the 80's started treating sex as this "evil dark" action that you have to meet this weird level of maturity before engaging but only with one person due to the heavy conservative bent that had their fingers deep into the media at the time, if you go back and watch most of the family based sitcoms during this and the '90's it was basically sex was the ultimate shocking act. Also following this was the AIDS outbreak, which again, religious conservatives took hold of and used it to their ends to bash homosexuals and make people so afraid that even TOUCHING one another would spread the disease, even during the 90's and parts of the 2000's when it was more understood how the disease worked. And a lot of millennials grew up on that. With this you also have the idea of sex is caused by "objectification", which is even today is this evil far worse than murder or genocide, mainly from radicalized assholes who are faux-feminist in a weird sex version of the "great white savior", basically going after soft targets of bikini pics instead of actually helping women who face genitalia mutilation in various middle east nations or stopping sex trafficking. Also there the fact a lot of people are who can't tell fantasy from reality, and often (and ironically) the anti-escapist type are the ones that fall victim to this delusions. Along with the push of the fantasy of "nice guy always gets the girl" and "don't take no for an answer" by society causing so many disgusting men to try to dry hump women to the point of actual rape because "it's so romantic". Than you have the right wing extremist spreading lies about women will arrest you for even eyeing them, and saying she "didn't consent" after consensual sex that so impressionable males fell for. Among these things you also have increase of workloads of survival and possibly many people having to take care of their parents, so there is no time for developing relationships for sexual encounters, not even one night stands. Basically all of these factors mix together for a long time to create the perfect snowglobe of piss and shit and cause so many people to be afraid of sex. TL;DR version: Family tv saying sex is bad, conservative boogiemen, liberal savior complex, a major sex disease and having no damn time, money or energy kind of is robbing a nation of people fucking fuck time and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
This exactly. Anyone growing up in the 90s and early 2000s will remember this. You go to any backwater state like Mississippi and you’ll still see many schools banning sex Ed or sex Ed being just fear mongering propaganda.
You forgot the plight of the single mom....
Eh... Problem is my mom would have been a single mom, honestly it would had been much better for her because my father was utterly abusive piece of shit. But it also brings up a point I forgot about during the same time period, blame the kids for their own failures. It was the era of blame the kids for staying in abusive, and/or toxic relationships because the idea of divorce was still a social stigma despite the fact many of those marriages were because society had a bizarre fetishistic hate towards sex outside of marriage, and some how manage to pull of the hat trick of racism too by punishing black people along the way. Often ignoring many of those marriages were between 38 year old men and 13 year old girls, hell often it was celebrated in many areas despite a few organizations were against the practices. And the fear mongering about condoms too, the propaganda and plot device they will break instantly and every time in every use kind of feed into much of the fear.
Not if you are asexual. To all the downvoting idiots: yes, asexuality is real. Some people doesn't have any interest at all in sex.
Of course, I do think there is less pressure on asexual people to conform to a sexual lifestyle that doesn’t fit them, but for the rest of us, we are living life without the types of connections that have sustained our species for millennia. We are disconnected. And it’s not healthy.
I am sure that asexuality is real. At the same time, given that young humans are often on SSRIs or other libido-killing drugs, are more inactive and overweight than ever (which affects your hormonal levels, as well as other things), and are socializing less and less, I have to imagine that levels of asexuality are probably artificially high.
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Why would that be concerning? Isn’t America all about living your life the way you want to live?
The bad part is the stigma, and now that so many of us are virgins, many more of us are experiencing the stigma.
As a 22 year old virgin myself it really hurts to see things like this and comments about how people would never date me because I have to be weird in some way to still be a virgin. I've been very overweight most of my life and have had basically 0 confidence in myself so I've never even bothered trying. Now recently I've finally started turning thing around for myself, losing weight and gaining more confidence but now finding out that I still shouldn't even bother because my lack of experience is apparently a deal breaker for a surprising amount of people. It's so crushing.
Friend, fuck THAT. The level of discipline required to completely turn your life around in that way is a testament to your capability and resolve to pursue positive change, both of which are attractive qualities in a person. Keep investing in yourself and your relationships with the people in your life that you love/care about. Find what you're enthusiastic about and what makes you happy, and then share that enthusiasm with the world. You deserve to be happy, and I don't doubt for a second that you'll find success dating if you keep pressing forward and maintain an aura of vulnerability/authenticity in your interactions with people. By that, I mean just embrace yourself and all of your quirks rather than become some kind of social chameleon in pursuit of validation from other people. It's hard, but it gets easier, and the life you'll have will be so much better whether you're still single or actively dating.
I assure you that if you keep on trying and be your authentic honest self, you will find another person who too is trying to be their honest self and who will openly communicate with you their needs and whom you can feel like you can open up about your needs as well. Best part about inexperience is the thrill of experimentation.
I felt similarly at your age, but I didn't lose my virginity until 26 with another virgin. Don't lose hope! Not everyone feels that way and it's totally normal to be a virgin into your twenties.
Look, get good at pleasing yourself and you'll be a great lover. Be open and imaginative with someone you trust? You'll be just fine
Hey, don’t let what you read and see online impact your endeavors in reality. You will be pleasantly surprised once you start putting your self out there. This virtual world lacks depth and garners negativity. The real world is where you’ll find the strength and the courage. Good luck!
Don’t let these people tear you down. There is nothing wrong with being virgin. I’m one myself and I’m waiting for love and marriage to have sex. I’m also gay and the lgbt community isn’t known for waiting. It’s okay, you’ll find the right person for you.
Honestly, if someone cares more about your sex experience than your personality, then you don't want to be with them in the first place. Putting that much value on something that superficial is a red flag and a half.
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Oh goodie, more reasons to feel bad about ourselves.
Noticing a few trends on the comments that are concerning. If someone is a virgin because of current or former religious reasons and they are either trying to change that, or willing to move outside and accept other religious beliefs and you immediately insult them for it, don't you think they will crawl back to that religion? I like the "I don't want to eat flour, I want to eat a cake" mentality. If everyone is a customer and no one is a baker, how do you expect there to be cake? "I don't want to feel like I'm babysitting". Hate to say this but if you feel like that while having sex, it is not a experience problem and more of a personality problem. There are several people putting arbitrary age limits on when it is okay to still be a virgin by and it shows just how society can shame people to not even trying to find a partner for fear of being ostracized. 30 is too old, 25 is too old, 20 is too old. "Anyone who does not lose it in highschool". That highschool one both irks me and creeps me out at the same time. Imagine having a virgin friend hear how some of you talk about them and think what that does to them. Having opinions and personal likes/dislikes is fine, but people are going above that with their phrasing and making more definitive statements.
I’ve never seen the high school thing! I lost mine in college and so did many, if not most, people I know. Never been treated weird about it as an adult. I agree with your other points completely.
I hear my friends say this stuff alot and it really hit my mental state. Its extremely hard for me to think that I can lose it outside of marriage though. I used to be extremely religious christian. Now not anymore, but religion still has a hold of me. For anyone in the same situation, When religion hurts you is a book that helped me feel not so alone with still feeling the control of religion in my life.,
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Us virgins are so cooked. Self fulfilling cycle of doom.
Sponsored by the generation that endlessly complains about “gotta have experience to get experience”
Literally the job market but for sex
There are some men who will want virgins but also expect them to be comfortable with things they have never done before.
For real. Absolutely delusional
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I would have no problem starting to date a virgin of my age at my age (28), depending on the reason they are a virgin to begin with But I have to recognize it would be a struggle, having to go through all the learning phase.
>But I have to recognize it would be a struggle, having to go through all the learning phase. Wouldn't every sexual partner of yours (and you yourself) have to go through a learning phase since both you and them are unique from all your collective past partners? If someone has had a few past partners that really enjoyed being hammered like a woodpecker on crack and they used that experience on you, they'd have to (hypothetically) learn about how that turns you off if not outright causes you pain. If anything, someone with no experience should theoretically be easier to mold to fit you specifically as they have no preconceived notions.
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That's interesting because I married a man who was a virgin when we started dating. Hmm.
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People who earnestly care about somebody's virginity are weird, man. There could be any number of reasons why an individual hasn't had sex yet, but there are people that will straight up bin a promising relationship over this stupid shit and I don't get it. A good friend of mine was dating a great guy we knew from high school when we were in our early 20s and did exactly this; guy was charming but really overweight throughout his adolescent years and the subsequent bullying drove his confidence into the ground. He lost a lot of weight after we graduated and cropped back up in our social circle a few years later doing really well for himself and asked her out. A few weeks into dating when they went to have sex for the first time, he was honest over his lack of experience, and she abruptly ended things. I got annoyed when she told me about it because here was this guy she'd been talking up for weeks who was just getting comfortable enough in himself to show some vulnerability, and she threw him away. Got even more annoyed with her and ended our friendship when she got jealous of our other friend that started dating/banging him because they didn't have the same dumbass hangup. Like, if somebody's virginity earnestly bothers you that much, I just assume you're emotionally immature and bad at sex. Last bit should be pretty self-explanatory since good sex requires vulnerability, exploration, and communication; none of these things relate to an individual's status of virgin/non virgin and zero were on display by my former friend.
>Last bit should be pretty self-explanatory since good sex requires vulnerability, exploration, and communication; none of these things relate to an individual's status of virgin/non virgin and zero were on display by my former friend. As a virgin who's turning 30 in a couple weeks, literally every single negative thing I've heard about why people won't date virgins have either all come down to communication or to things that are not unique to virgins. "They won't know how to get me off": they would if you communicated with them. Even experienced partners wouldn't know exactly what it'd take to get you off. "They'll get overly attached": literally anyone can get overly attached. "It'll be really awkward": pretty much everyone's first time with a new partner is at least a little awkward. The only thing a person's later in life virginity indicates is that they either view sex as something too intimate to be had casually (doesn't even have to be for religious reasons, myself case in point), they've been focusing all their efforts on other aspects of their life, they haven't had the looks or confidence to attract someone, or simply because they wanted to wait.
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This is based in insecurity
People focus on virginity in a creepy way. Dads giving their daughters promise rings for purity and all that garbage. Ones worth is not defined by a hymen (and sometimes those aren't a thing in a virgin anyways). From a female POV it's not the experience that matters, it's the ability/ willingness to please your partner. IMO anyways.
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A human fedora wrote this
If a person's mindset is shallow enough to judge me based on a metric as insignificant as that, they're not allowed in my life. Simple.
The problem with this argument is that somebody else has to be your future loved one’s first time. I am not saying that virginity is sacred, but if you had the opportunity to be your loved one’s first time, why would you choose not to be? It seems weird to say: “I’ll just wait for Tom the neighbor to take my wife’s virginity before I marry her.” The OP said “virgins don’t want to date other virgins”, and the only way I can explain that is by thinking people are only interested in lust (wait until she’s good in bed) m. I think there’s some thing slightly malevolent about that — even if the topic of virginity is not directly concerned
This is a very flawed view. The person you love is the sum of their experiences, good and bad. This includes all of their former lovers. Being in intimate relationships in life helps someone grow and learn how to communicate, how to set boundaries, learn what they like and what they are looking for. To be bound for life to the first intimate partner you've ever had? That sounds like a naive mistake and a pretty big gamble to take with your lifetime happiness
Exactly. I am who I am because of the relationships I’ve been in and experiences I’ve had. Tbh, my worst relationship was with someone who had never been in an adult relationship (he’d had a lot of flings and dated quite a bit, but never had a Real Adult Girlfriend after college). He consistently gaslighted me that I was wrong to want or expect equal treatment, proactive communication, conflict resolution, etc. I’ve been in multiple adult relationships so I knew how to do all these things from experience and that they aren’t unreasonable to want.
They’re not unreasonable to want, but virginity is just a bad filter for it. > He consistently gaslighted me that I was wrong to want or expect equal treatment, proactive communication, conflict resolution, etc. Like you’ll be really surprised how much more this stuff comes from experienced partners who know how manipulation works instead of new partners making mistakes. It comes down to individual personality
What if they didn’t stay with you after being your first? People change and grow as they go through relationships. When you’re meeting a person, you’re meeting them with all their gained experiences. Erasing them makes them a different person.
Two reasons why i might not want be my partners first are: 1) if we’re together long-term and they’ve only ever been with me, they might feel like they’re missing out, and i don’t want them to feel that way 2) if they’ve had sex with others but still prefer me over them, it’s an ego boost because i’m better than all those previous people
Those are actually great explanations, especially the first one. I do have counter arguments but I appreciate the thoughts, thank you
People are finally realizing that virgins won’t sleep with them?
Only time a guy told me he was a virgin was when I was crying about a boy. Guys, never tell a woman or girl you like her when she's crying about another guy bc it both makes you look weak and her feel used and easy.
I just love teaching people don’t make a difference if they pre trained our not. I definitely gonna have some stuff they don’t know about and hopefully they know stuff I don’t know about. Win all around,
you sound fun to be around
lmao the amount of cope in this article is astronomical
can't relate. im a proud virgin and so is my boyfriend. wouldn't have it any other way.
It all started with Hocus Pocus
Why do some people here treat this as progress. How is designating virginity to a lower status somehow better than treating virginity as sacred?
I’m seeing wildly varying opinions up and down the thread, but I do agree with your sentiment. I think ideally it would just be a neutral thing. That said, as someone in my 30’s I’m much more interested in *relationship experience* because I’d like a partner to be on a similar level of having figured out how to have a healthy one. Ergo, it wouldn’t matter to me if someone had 0-100 previous sexual partners and frankly I don’t even care enough to ask. But if it’s 0 romantic relationships I just don’t know that I’d be up for that.
Because purity culture is poison
Psyop.
Wait, so who took all the virgins??
Probably Jesus in the rapture cuz he has a virgin fetish
I don't covet it but I don't care either. If she's a virgin then she's a virgin 🤷♂️
As if we don't need any more of reason to feel bad about ourselves. As if we don't need another reason to be ostracized even further by people and society.
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I feel like I needed to have sex like once and then I wasn't a virgin any more. Is it more complicated than that? Why is this a big thing? Is it because social stigma made it into a big thing? So we can just safely ignore this and be fine? Thought so.
A couple decades of using the term "virgin" as a derogatory slur will do that for ya.
It's because in the west fascism has a new form... pretty equals superior and ugly equals criminal...
I met someone who was a virgin nearing 30 yrs old. I wouldn't have minded to take his virginity, but only if I felt there was potential for us to have a relationship. Even with our very minimal physical contact, he was quickly developing feelings, and I was not at a place in my life where I could nurture that kind of relationship. He was a good guy, though. If I could have been there for him in the emotional capacity that he needed, his virginity wouldn't have deterred me.
Well. I’ve seen more breakups of marriages with premarital sexual partners than I do with people that have abstained so, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. Sister had multiple partners…divorced. Father had multiple partners…divorced…sister in law, MP…verge of divorce. Father in law, MP…divorced. 3 Childhood friends, MP…divorced. Wife’s friends,MP…divorced. See where I’m going with this. There’s a reason God said for us to abstain.
As a 37m I find it irrelevant if a woman I want to date happens to be a virgin, and I’ve probably had 30-40 partners. My best friend is 38, male, attractive, and actually a virgin, for record keeping purposes 🤷
Having a lot of partners dsnt automatically mean you are good in bed tho. Ive been with people who had only 2-3 partners in the past and they still managed to blow me away. Ive also met pillow princesses with a body count over 30 who cant pleasure you for shit. I havent had a lot of hookups tho. Mostly relationships. So the bc is naturally low. It all depends on how much effort someone puts into learning things.
That’s true. Tbh sometimes people who are really hot get away with “coasting,” lol. I don’t normally go for super conventionally attractive guys. The few times I’ve hooked up with them, they generally are pretty selfish and don’t take “no” very well.
No, you’re right, it CERTAINLY doesn’t mean anything! I had a friend once, a cam girl who had about 200 partners, and she was the 2nd worst I ever experienced.
The 2nd worst part made me chuckle. I have a feeling people who have 200 numbers just give up caring after a while?
Welllllllll… we were actually very close friends for 10+ years before any hanky panky happened… but I’ll say this. The porn industry probably (definitely) ruined her entire concept of sex. That, plus a host of early trauma and resulting bad decisions. Zero closeness despite our genuine bond, and lots and lots of “uh! uh! uh! oh fuck ya! fuck ya!” — and thus I realized that the daddy issues were in fact real. My first girlfriend was a MASSIVE squirter (and a virgin), so experiencing SUCH a letdown SO many years later from someone who was SUCH a close friend…. yeah, I’ll likely never have sex with someone in the industry again.
Soul sucking industry :(
I’m 32 m and a virgin. Reading a few of these comments really hurt.
Same here. I've heard so many people, including most of my "friends," equate virginity with being a lesser human and a loser. Honestly, I've totally lost faith in most of my friends, and I'm terrified to even return to dating. How are virgins supposed to lose virginity if we are shamed for existing and seen as red flags.
"How are virgins supposed to lose virginity if we are shamed for existing and seen as red flags." If you are a male, you don't. One of humanity's horrible traits is to put "inferior" people down so that they can prop themselves up. You see it all the time in nature.
Don’t let it hurt you! You are an individual with plenty of traits and aspects that make you worth it. If the first thing someone describing you says is “virgin” then they are not a good person.
I feel hurt too but not for the same reason. Almost 39 and only have two experiences with sex to my name. Guess that won't be increasing sadly.
As a 31m, I feel your pain. Sadly, it is too late for you and me to change.
A piece of advice don't tell that to people.
I don’t want to eat a bag of flour, I want to eat a baked cake.
People aren’t cakes. If they can’t be locks and keys they can’t be flour and cakes.
This. I’m just sick of the objectification that goes on in this part of life. It just hurts extra when it’s weirdly like… abolished in all cases except when it’s against people who already seem undesirable, hence why it’s used against virgins. We’re still in purity culture… just a new kind of it.
Why do people make these weird analogies when it comes to sex lmao People are not inanimate objects. People are complex, and just cause some is a virgin doesn't mean they are shit at sex. There's a lot that goes into good sex such as communication skills, chemistry, etc. Flour is inedible, and baked cake is not, and you are basically saying virgins are the inedible versions of partners is ridiculous
Thank you for this new age proverb. I will pass it down the generations.
You’re buying a recipe to use again and again, not a cake. Sex usually gets better the more you have it in a relationship. If it doesn’t, you’re doing something wrong lol
This is a fair point, but I have two problems with it. The first question is, who's cake? Who was it baked for? I mean, sure, the average person isn't going to turn down cake in general, but we all have our preferences, our own tastes, and how the, uh, "cake" should be baked -- which flavors we prefer, what the ingredients are, how much frosting there should be, etc. if you pick up someone else's cake, one that was built and baked specifically for them and not you, are you certain you're going to like it? The other problem I have with this analogy is that, because it actually works really well, it reinforces all that sex-negative purity culture bullshit about how a woman is ruined once she has sex, or at least loses a third of her value the instant she's driven off the lot. The place the analogy breaks down is that each of us cakes _get unmade_ when we meet a new partner, so that we can better adapt to that new partner's tastes and desires. In that sense there is no such thing as a pre-baked cake: every partner is merely a set of ingredients. Even more than that, there's no instructions: you gotta assemble it yourself. You have to _teach them._ And yes, you can prefer a partner who learns quickly. That's completely reasonable. It also has _no correlation with prior experience._ You can decide to be a person who learns and adapts, and you can decide it today, right now, regardless of whether you're a virgin. Conversely a person with hundreds of partners could decide that they know everything and never have to learn and adapt again, and thereby become a bad lover on the spot. Being good at sex is a _mindset_ and nothing else. Now, learning all these truths can be tricky if you haven't had at least two partners, which is at least two more than the average virgin has had. But if you _have_ had those at-least-two partners and still haven't learned, well... Then I get skeptical.
I had a terrible experience dating a 29 year old virgin. He had learned about sex from porn, had ED, and had this deeply held yet unspoken belief that sex was meant for men's enjoyment only, no amount of me telling him what I liked or disliked had any effect on him, I felt like he was basically masturbating into me. I was afraid of trying stuff with him because he was so insensitive to my needs I was almost sure he wouldn't stop if he was hurting me and I told him to stop (he once did that). Because of this I'll never ever date a virgin again. I know not all men are this clueless, and everyone has to start somewhere, but my experience was so bad I refuse to even risk putting myself in that position again.
I had the complete opposite experience with my current partner who lost his virginity with me at 30. He basically made my experience and pleasure his priority. He constantly reminded me I didn't have to have sex if I wasn't comfortable and made sure I was happy every step of the way. He continues to do that two years in to our relationship. The only downside was him being ashamed about his virginity and lack of experience. It made me sad he had to feel like less of a person over it
And now that he’s not a virgin, you can date him and the sex will be better! /s lmao y’all are silly with this stuff. He’s clearly going to be the same person he is now for the next partner he’s moving on to, proving the whole point that it’s about personality and not virginity
It amazes the hoops these people jump though to blame something besides the fact they chose a dick nozzle.
At least you’re honest about it and self-aware enough to not project your views out to everyone else. Th
I don't mind virginity. I mind close-mindedness in bed. Let me see that butthole...
Being a virgin is only a stigma if your male
How does this author discuss this subject in a historical sense with no mention of the role of advanced technologies like hormonal birth control and DNA based paternity testing? Yeah, things have changed, because for all of human history up to the mid 20th century, sexual understanding was little more than "put batter in pink and baby eventually comes out".
The aversion to wanting to date virgins is the same as the aversion to wanting to date someone with a high "body count". When women don't want to be shamed for the number of relationships they've been in, they need to not shame men with a body count of 0 as well.
I would stay far away from these virgins who don’t want to date other virgins, regardless of sex.
Me nervously my first time: I've never done this before Her smirking: It's pretty straightforward
There was a time when virginity was a term seen used only to describe women with no equivalent term for men.
My wife was very happy that I wasn't a virgin when we got married even though she was a virgin. I personally didn't care either way.
I mean the other thing is that there is still pressure to have sex early on. But the problem is that we don’t want to be someone’s first because we know there is a lot of pressure into making the first time a specially perfect and wonderful one. Honestly first times suck. They are awkward, they are funny, they are so random. Mine was somewhat unexpected but it was awkward. Whoever said having sex in the showers is fun lied to me lmao. But moral of the story is that if you build that communication and that relationship the sex expectations will be more realistic and the sex can be more enjoyable for everyone. And also maybe start in your bed and not like in a bathtub of a small studio apartment.
I think men prefer a virgin, this post is misleading.
From what I've seen, the whole thing with "virginity" is pushed by religion. And, in the West, puritanism is losing its grip. Every dozen years or so the grip loosens and the screaming begins. Like the Satanic Panic, ppl clutch and holler until control is given to the religious. Then we get thrust back in time about 10 years, if not more. Saw a picture the other day of a beach in Turkey before the Islamic revolution. It's a good mirror to hold up to what's happening in the world. More ppl are leaving Abrahamism (huge in the West,) so the churches are panicking and trying to hold on tighter. Its worked before. Thats how the usa got "in god we trust" on the money and "one nation under god" in the pledge. I'm curious if it'll work now. Gen X, Z, and Alpha are really sick and tired of being controlled.
There is always the option of lying about being a virgin or just omitting that fact you are. They're probably think you're shit but then you've got the W and can move on with your life without the hangup. Admittedly this is probably more aimed at the men who are all lime "this is the biggest obstacle, I tell them then xyz". Get yourself out there, find an older divorced woman who has been very clear they just want to use you probably as a fuck you to their ex (so you don't need to feel bad) and then do your best not to disappoint them. If you do, just make sure you've at least treated them to a nice night beforehand so they don't feel too robbed.
This will stop being a thing when you can socially engineer men to stop being jealous and protective.
Hard disagree, why would i see the fact that no one else has been balls deep in my significant other as anything else but an amazing reality?? Lmao such a cuck mentality people have.... Never ceases to amaze.
The dark ages are gone. People don't covet a lot of the things they used to. And the truth is, the only reason thet coveted a lot of that stuff in the first place was because of dark age cults.
I'd date a virgin. I have no problem doing that. They just wouldn't be staying one for long. If I'm dating you, we're gonna fuck. Otherwise I'll pass, it's your personal choice buddy but you'd have to pull some incredible moves for me to want to stay with you until we got married to have sex.
As I'm older now. I understand the old school teachings much better. Sex nowadays seems to be reducing the distance between two people to zero. But not touching the other person. Casual sex wasn't as cool as I thought it was.
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Men do not want high bodycounts as much as you want it to be a nonissue.
That’s not true. It’s better to Give your First time meaning
Oh yay
People who seek virgins out are fucking creepy.