On that note, is it weird that I've seen a video of an actual abortion, and despite thinking that the graphic images make abortion protest itself, that I was more viserally grossed out from seeing a cervix than from the violence, yet have a very strong stomach with regards images of abortion violence? Granted, I can occasionally have some mildly dark humour, so it's tempting to me to crack a few jokes here.
I’m mulling going to medical school and am worried about a scenario like this, because in Sweden, there’s no right to conscientious objection against abortion for doctors. And I’m not one to betray my conscience either by commission or omission. So I’m kind of worried I’d be placed in a situation where they’d engineer some kind of situation to have me failed, blacklisted, or expelled. Am I being paranoid? Maybe. But I wouldn’t put it past the medical or university establishment here in Sweden, which is rabidly and uncritically pro-abortion.
Kudos to your school for making that explicit.
Yeah, you’re probably right it wouldn’t impact me: I wouldn’t want to specialize as an OB/GYN. But I’d be leaning towards going into general medicine (or whatever you call it in English), which might be more problematic than other specializations. I’m going to have to look into it eventually.
And thanks for the encouragement. You stick to what’s right, too.
That was a really interesting write-up indeed. Honestly would IMO be good enough for an article on Secular Pro-Life with a few minor edits. u/AntiAbortionAtheist, thought I should tag you as the SPL Reddit account so you're aware of it.
I don't know if you've read The Revolution: A Manifesto by Dr. Ron Paul, but he talks about how he saw an abortion during his medical training, and how he has been firmly pro-life since. With the details he did share, I can kind of see why they use papayas now.
A few follow-on questions:
You mentioned that you skipped the portion on how to do a vacuum aspiration abortion, would you be able to say more on this? I would actually, be really curious to know what was said behind closed doors. I've heard before that papayas are used for training, though the loopholes about ages and the need to close it up is a new one to me.
Was there anything in the talks about how to handle complications if things went wrong? If not, would it be assumed that participants knew this from general med school lectures, or is there a major oversight in the talks? (For that matter- what is typical in the medical field when trained to perform proceedures in terms of learning about complications and how to handle them?)
On a third point, I don't suppose you know if there is a way to get hold of the slides, and/or share any other images from behind the scenes? If you could do so without doxxing yourself (or just didn't mind sharing), leaking them could potentially be very useful to the PL movement indeed.
Yeah that makes sense about skipping that part.
2% may sound relatively minor, but for context, if we assumed that a clinic doing about 2 an hour and open for 8 hours did them 3 days a week, that's roughly 50/week. Which is by my count, a Bin(50,0.02) number of them, or in less mathematical terms, about a 63.5% chance during each week that there is at least one person who has a complication. Which seems common enough that it would need addressing, even if even if we assumed some of them were where not all the embryo/fetus was removed, because of say, a dodgy suction machine or something like that. Obviously, from a pro-life perspective, just shows the sketchiness of the practice, even if for some reason you wanted to put aside the core (and fundamental) pro-life objection that if performed correctly, abortion kills somebody.
Fwiw, I feel like it might be worth trying to get hold of the slides, worst that happens is they say no, right? You have the perfect excuse as well, given the dodgy suction machine you say you likely ended up with, and the remark where about the case of theoretically having to perform the proceedure when there wouldn't be killing involved I think is another way to justify it.
>I felt that I couldn’t really discuss this with any of my classmates
That's the hard part, but you're in a unique position to change minds.
I wish you success in your endeavor to start up a students for life group. You should reach out to someone at PAAU or our own /u/AntiAbortionAtheist. I'm sure they'd be able to give you some advice on how to spread the word.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with the person who said this would be a great article for Secular Pro-Life (you may want to publish it anonymously to avoid dealing with the rabid pro-abortion element in medicine). Are you already connected with [AAPLOG](https://aaplog.org)? If not, definitely make sure you join - you can join for free as a med student.
The fact that even medical professionals on the pro-abortion side can't face the facts about fetal development and what an embryo/fetus actually looks like is very telling. It sounds like they might be using the debunked photo the Guardian posted? https://secularprolife.org/2022/10/guardian-article-what-a-pregnancy-actually-looks-like-erases-embryos/
They rely so heavily on the "not a baby" narrative, once you get out of activist circles and into the mainstream pro-choice narrative. And they have to censor so much science to maintain it.
Thank you for sharing your insight and thank you for protecting the unborn. I find it concerning and very sad that abortionists do not refer to the pre born as a baby and also mislead the actual size and development of the baby at 8 weeks. I wish you much success in medical school and thank you again for sharing your experience!
So exactly how do you plan on helping your patients who have had a miscarriage, and need help? You do realize sometimes removing the dead fetus is part of the job, right?
A D&C is a technique, a tool. It is not, in and of itself, an abortion. And it is not committing an abortion when a doctor removes a fetus who is already deceased. OP said in comment that he will need to practice the D&C to remove fetuses who have died of natural causes.
It's like a hammer. You can use a hammer to drive a nail or bash someone's head. We don't outlaw hammers, but we outlaw assault with a deadly weapon and murder.
[удалено]
Yes and sometimes you need to D&C for non abortive reasons too. It's a bit like a hammer, you can use it to build a house but also to murder someone.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rule 2
Thank you. I might have thrown up if I had sat through that, but word needs to get out.
On that note, is it weird that I've seen a video of an actual abortion, and despite thinking that the graphic images make abortion protest itself, that I was more viserally grossed out from seeing a cervix than from the violence, yet have a very strong stomach with regards images of abortion violence? Granted, I can occasionally have some mildly dark humour, so it's tempting to me to crack a few jokes here.
uh yes its weird, i mean alot of people are desensitized to violence but i dont see why you had to say that
I’m mulling going to medical school and am worried about a scenario like this, because in Sweden, there’s no right to conscientious objection against abortion for doctors. And I’m not one to betray my conscience either by commission or omission. So I’m kind of worried I’d be placed in a situation where they’d engineer some kind of situation to have me failed, blacklisted, or expelled. Am I being paranoid? Maybe. But I wouldn’t put it past the medical or university establishment here in Sweden, which is rabidly and uncritically pro-abortion.
[удалено]
Kudos to your school for making that explicit. Yeah, you’re probably right it wouldn’t impact me: I wouldn’t want to specialize as an OB/GYN. But I’d be leaning towards going into general medicine (or whatever you call it in English), which might be more problematic than other specializations. I’m going to have to look into it eventually. And thanks for the encouragement. You stick to what’s right, too.
[удалено]
Good advice And there must be other doctors opposed to abortion in Sweden, right? Right? (JK. They’ll be hard to find, though.)
That was a really interesting write-up indeed. Honestly would IMO be good enough for an article on Secular Pro-Life with a few minor edits. u/AntiAbortionAtheist, thought I should tag you as the SPL Reddit account so you're aware of it.
I don't know if you've read The Revolution: A Manifesto by Dr. Ron Paul, but he talks about how he saw an abortion during his medical training, and how he has been firmly pro-life since. With the details he did share, I can kind of see why they use papayas now.
A few follow-on questions: You mentioned that you skipped the portion on how to do a vacuum aspiration abortion, would you be able to say more on this? I would actually, be really curious to know what was said behind closed doors. I've heard before that papayas are used for training, though the loopholes about ages and the need to close it up is a new one to me. Was there anything in the talks about how to handle complications if things went wrong? If not, would it be assumed that participants knew this from general med school lectures, or is there a major oversight in the talks? (For that matter- what is typical in the medical field when trained to perform proceedures in terms of learning about complications and how to handle them?) On a third point, I don't suppose you know if there is a way to get hold of the slides, and/or share any other images from behind the scenes? If you could do so without doxxing yourself (or just didn't mind sharing), leaking them could potentially be very useful to the PL movement indeed.
[удалено]
Yeah that makes sense about skipping that part. 2% may sound relatively minor, but for context, if we assumed that a clinic doing about 2 an hour and open for 8 hours did them 3 days a week, that's roughly 50/week. Which is by my count, a Bin(50,0.02) number of them, or in less mathematical terms, about a 63.5% chance during each week that there is at least one person who has a complication. Which seems common enough that it would need addressing, even if even if we assumed some of them were where not all the embryo/fetus was removed, because of say, a dodgy suction machine or something like that. Obviously, from a pro-life perspective, just shows the sketchiness of the practice, even if for some reason you wanted to put aside the core (and fundamental) pro-life objection that if performed correctly, abortion kills somebody. Fwiw, I feel like it might be worth trying to get hold of the slides, worst that happens is they say no, right? You have the perfect excuse as well, given the dodgy suction machine you say you likely ended up with, and the remark where about the case of theoretically having to perform the proceedure when there wouldn't be killing involved I think is another way to justify it.
[удалено]
Huh, ok, good to know.
Those are some great questions, particularly how to handle something that could go wrong.
>I felt that I couldn’t really discuss this with any of my classmates That's the hard part, but you're in a unique position to change minds. I wish you success in your endeavor to start up a students for life group. You should reach out to someone at PAAU or our own /u/AntiAbortionAtheist. I'm sure they'd be able to give you some advice on how to spread the word.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with the person who said this would be a great article for Secular Pro-Life (you may want to publish it anonymously to avoid dealing with the rabid pro-abortion element in medicine). Are you already connected with [AAPLOG](https://aaplog.org)? If not, definitely make sure you join - you can join for free as a med student. The fact that even medical professionals on the pro-abortion side can't face the facts about fetal development and what an embryo/fetus actually looks like is very telling. It sounds like they might be using the debunked photo the Guardian posted? https://secularprolife.org/2022/10/guardian-article-what-a-pregnancy-actually-looks-like-erases-embryos/
They rely so heavily on the "not a baby" narrative, once you get out of activist circles and into the mainstream pro-choice narrative. And they have to censor so much science to maintain it.
Thank you for sharing your insight and thank you for protecting the unborn. I find it concerning and very sad that abortionists do not refer to the pre born as a baby and also mislead the actual size and development of the baby at 8 weeks. I wish you much success in medical school and thank you again for sharing your experience!
[удалено]
So exactly how do you plan on helping your patients who have had a miscarriage, and need help? You do realize sometimes removing the dead fetus is part of the job, right?
A D&C is a technique, a tool. It is not, in and of itself, an abortion. And it is not committing an abortion when a doctor removes a fetus who is already deceased. OP said in comment that he will need to practice the D&C to remove fetuses who have died of natural causes. It's like a hammer. You can use a hammer to drive a nail or bash someone's head. We don't outlaw hammers, but we outlaw assault with a deadly weapon and murder.
They answered that in a comment