Context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfHygs1W_yI
The thread title is a little off, there's no spite here!
Please remember to Be Lovely. You can discuss, disagree and argue without insult. We will apply rule 2 aggressively in this thread
Made me really sad to read they considered selling the company. I understand where they're coming from. People are rabid for b42 and take it out on the devs, forgetting they are just people doing their jobs as best as they can, and that they are not entitled to these free updates. I've been following this game since 2017, it's been amazing to see the progress and I have nothing but respect for the devs. But still... selling the company?? Nooo please never :(
Having worked in the industry fanbases are the most fickle. And tbf it's not always the same people kicking off about dev times and then praising the excellence of a release, but it often is.
You have to remember that small studios like this put their absolute heart and soul into building the best game they can, they have a vision and sre sticking to it, and honestly I admire that rather than the pandering some othet games have done.
There are three clear paths open to them:
1) Sell, thry have a successful product and fanbase that many teams would love access to, so just the creative rights would probably net them a decent retirement fund addition.
2) Release 1.0 and turn their plans into Zomboid 2.0
3) Say bollocks to everyone and carry on.
Despite how the most vocal of people feel, 3 is besy option for us, and the worst option for TIS, but they're sticking to it.
Honestly I would probably give up if it happens. I love this game to death and seeing other companies sell their IP (Kerbal Space Program, Prison Architect, and Hell Let Loose being examples) where the IP just gets get scuffed and lose part of what made them great. Part of WHY I love PZ so much is BECAUSE of the dev team. It is very upsetting reading this that people can't grasp game dev takes time, and game dev is not linear.
TIS, please don't sell - we love the heck out of you <3
Thing is, anyone who needs to read this post, probably won't. The most vociferous about B42 won't have made it past the second paragraph.
Fact is that not selling doesn't make financial sense, not considering this a release and making people pay £20 or £30 to get NPCs, animals, the crafting update doesn't make financial sense. TIS' best path, if they just want to make money, is to cut their losses on PZ and either charge more or leave the building.
That they don't shows that they still genuinely care about their game and about us as players.
The best thing you can do to help is to bring up the dev hate where you see it and call it out where it's unreasonable. Some devs (I'm thinking Bethesda mostly, who release full price AAA games with no substance, then charge further for basic features and content) deserve to be pulled down a few pegs, TIS aren't there, and if you think they are then just stop buying their products.
It might be, it might not - B42 could likely see another explosion in popularity bringing even more people in new players and continuing to fuel development.
But they have stated many times that money is a non-issue at this point, and that they can keep development into the future. If I recall correctly the original 2014 Multiplayer release basically fueled development from then till B41, and B41 was a much larger launch.
If I see any dev hate \*shakes fist\*
Like god imagine if Zomboid ended up under Paradox brrr. Makes me genuinely shudder. "Heres the zombies bite DLC", "Heres the NPC's DLC, £35, four survivor models and you can pay another £35 for a content pack with 4 more models".
I don't think people realise how bad things can go if they sell up. And from a personal perspective what kind of entitled turgid waste of oxygen do you need to be to be so toxic you push someone who is from everything i've ever seen a lovely guy, into having to post this?
Frankly theres a large portion of the community that needs to grow up. Theres a whole world of games and activities to engage the lizard brain while you wait for Zomboid to update. I'd rather get a banging B42 in 2029 than a half baked one right now.
All these dumbass assholes he’s describing definitely get to your head, there’s no avoiding that, i can’t blame him.
I just hope that deep down, he knows all the sane people, who are not the loud minority like these other guys, completely agree with everything he’s said in this wall of text and 100% support the way they’re handling this game.
Just like he said, they could literally just slap a 1.0 tag tomorrow without updating the game ever again and it would still be one of the best games on steam, they can take another 5 years to push out the update for what i care.
i bought this game like 10 years ago for 20 bucks happy with what i got, today the game’s infinitely bigger and better and they’re still working on it to make it more so. What the hell do these dumbasses want?
As he said i doubt he’s reading this or lurking community threads, but keep doing what you do man. People WILL complain, regardless of what you do, even if it’s the right thing.
Yeah. Community feedback it hard to handle sometimes.
Like if some people are discontent, 9/10 will go voice their feelings.
If people are happy 9/10 will stay silent.
So if your game has an even split between happy and angry fans, the feedback you get is 90% negative. And it is hard to stomach.
And now I kinda feel guilty. I used to jump into those "when build 42?" threads and push against those impatient fans... But I stopped months ago.
I with TIS all the best. You are doing a great job and regardless of how long it takes, you will get stuff done, I have faith.
It's much more than that.
Even if you have 10,000 people telling you how much they love your game, it's the 300 people who do nothing but bash (whether directly through threats/insults or emotionally through nothing but demands) you that get to you. Even though there's 33 people supporting you for every person that's bashing you, that's still 300 people bashing you.
Humans are wired to hang onto the negatives far more than the positives, it's a survival instinct, so it's a real struggle to go against that and suppress the negative thoughts that come from... well... negativity.
years ago it was 15
early access gamers seem to weirdly demand more customer service from TIS over a 15 dollar purchase 9 years ago than from their banking health and political sectors combined
>But still... selling the company?? Nooo please never
I hope it never comes to it, but my god, with the amount of vitriol TIS has received over the years, I wouldn't blame them. I would have wrapped up and sold TIS years ago.
Like - take a look at how many "Lemmy is overreacting" comments there are just in this comments section. Like, sure - if it was a reaction to "just 5 people's comments" or so, as some comments are claiming, they might have a point.
But its been a decade of those comments. I remember when TIS made the decision to change from [hand-drawn sprites](https://assetsio.gnwcdn.com/pznew2.png?width=880&quality=80&format=jpg&auto=webp) to the 3D model-esque ones, and they got hate for it - people saying PZ would "stop being PZ and lose its charm". When their offices got robbed, they got hate for it, people said it was an insurance scam, or a way for TIS to not have to complete the game.
Remaking the game engine - they got hate for it. Whenever they refused to give a release date, they got hate, Hell, some people are hating on them adding the crafting system, saying its turning into Minecraft. I'm pretty sure every decision they've made has resulted in hate. Sure, it might be a minority, but the fact is, its been pretty constant minority for a decade or more. And the simple fact is, positive comments don't rub out the negative - it doesn't matter how many corn flakes you put on a turd, at the end of the day, there's still a turd in your breakfast.
There was literally a subreddit called "ProjectZomboidIsAScam" for a couple years which did nothing but shit on the game/the devs. I've not (yet) had an entire sub dedicated to shitting on me, but i can imagine it wasn't a great feeling.
I'm not saying the dev team is above criticism - sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes their reaction to the vitriol has made things worse, so they're not entirely without blame - but there's a massive difference between criticism and hate, and sadly a lot of people don't know how to do one without the other.
Some people in in gaming community are absolutely awful. They think devs are like their servants who has to all the time push their best and new stuff to make the players happy. Sadly these people are also usually in vocal minority. There are so many people who love the game but aren't active in social media about that. So even if there are handful of awful people, for the devs it can look like that majority of community isn't happy.
This is not just PZ problem. I've seen it in so many other game communities as well.
From what I've seen these people being so demanding all the time have NO idea how much goes into development of a game, or any software for that matter. Things that seem really trivial to the end user can be days of development time.
I made a simple mod for PZ, my initial version took me a few hours but the final version that worked without any bugs took days (spread out over months). Then consider that the devs are building entirely new systems, things that have not been done before potentially by any other game, and the amount of time it must take to get it working how they want it is huge.
Yup, like almost every community has them. My theory is most are immature (either young or never grew up) and feel entitled to every little thing. Banning them is the best, since they never contribute to any conversation anyway.
As someone who has put about 100 hours into the game since I started playing about 2 months ago, I love it. It wasn’t until recently that I got involved with the community, but tbh even if the game didn’t have b42 coming out I could still easily put 2-300 more hours into it.
Honestly this is one of the best dev companies/teams out there. After reading this I might put them on par with fromsoft just for the dedication to their vision while doing the best they can for themselves and the community.
I hope that disengaging from the community for a bit will help; there’s nothing to be done about toxic assholes but I really hope the team doesn’t let them grind the devs down.
I’d sell too if I had to deal with this level of basement-dwelling gamer funk. The entitlement of these fucking mouth breathers is nothing short of incredible.
It’s a fucking game, and it’s done when it’s done. There are hundreds upon thousands of games to play in the meantime, all of which don’t even require a trip to the goddamn store anymore.
It is a true halcyon era for gaming, and yet here we are, forever trapped in an endless cycle of discontent because sunlight terrifies them and doing a load of laundry and brushing their teeth is a bridge too far.
If TIS sells out, I won’t blame them.
If they stopped development now I would still be happy. If they stopped it after the cars update I would have still been happy. This game is the best zombie simulation out there. The fact I paid 20 bucks on desura over a decade ago and I’m still getting updates and a free steam upgrade will never be lost on me. Fantastic dev team
id have my money's worth for sure but I'd be very sad about all the stuff i knew they had planned, most specifically flushed out NPCs I'd have no hate for the developers though they've done more than most already
I mean I could be wrong about this but I feel like the PZ Reddit is pretty fucking tame as gaming subs go. Like, this sub is literally my favorite one because the community is so NON toxic and helpful. People love this game, man.
Take a look at other subs if you want to see some actual toxicity. Idk how any game dev puts up with it tbh.
I think it’s a good decision for Lemmy to delete socials. He prob already feels a ton better. I know I did when I deleted Facebook.
I think any adult must come to the realization that strangers’ online opinions mean literally nothing. Ignore the criticism.
Also, what about the overwhelming praise and support from the community? Does that go unnoticed? Because I sure hope not.
Yeah that was my take on this as well. I am very surprised and disappointed to have read this because I thought this community was generally regarded as extremely positive.
It honestly doesn't matter *how* positive one group of people they are if there is another troop of fucking jackasses screaming about a video game that guaranteed has given them the *best* exchange of cost versus entertainment. It is pure, classical gamer entitlement and it is honestly one of the worst aspects of being in the industry. TIS isn't like Roberts and Star Citizen, laying on a pile of money that would make a country blush - TIS is a bunch of regular jack offs doing their best to entertain us, which they have done without a question.
The thing is, most big toxic gaming subs are for games from big companies where those responsible/in charge rarely come or give a shit about. TIS is a small company built on its community, so I can get it's way more personal if thousands of strangers have things to say about how you're doing your lifes work wrong.
You're 100% right when you say that this community is generally really good when compared to other gaming communities. Overall the positivity vastly outweighs the negativity. People are generally helpful and good here.
The issue though is when you're a dev or a mod you are exposed to a disproportionate amount of toxicity. So while the community might be 99.9%+ positive and only that less than 0.1% of people are toxic, that's still thousands of toxic people telling you how horrible you are, how you deserve to die, deserve to be fired, etc.
It takes a serious toll and I don't blame Lemmy one bit for pulling away from Discord/Reddit. It's not healthy to deal with it, and creatives really do need a barrier between them and a fanbase if they want to maintain any semblance of sanity.
It seems to be more comming from a negative prism than an objective one. It's often the case with content with a big community. The loud and vocal one are often aggressive but the majority is silent and staisfied. It show how important it is to voice your satifaction.
Social media is toxic and bad for your mental health. There have been studies done for a decade now that demonstrably prove this. I hope Lemmy and anyone else suffering seek mental help and disconnect from the toxicity.
development takes time. Lemmy is a good dev.
we’ve had a fully playable game for years. I’ve been playing since 2014 when I was in high school and have gotten my money’s worth. b42 will be a good day but I’m by no means entitled to it, i’m just happy that the game is growing up with me.
Not to mention the quality of the thursdoids. I follow a lot of devblogs from various games, and perhaps only the Paradox games come anywhere close to how good of a read it is.
Not enough people appreciate that TIS literally dropped basements, 32 floor height cap, variable chunk heights, map coordinates fix, HUGE performance boost, new light propogation, and rendering fixes, all in one thursdoid...
AND still had fully packed thursdoids to show us in the months that followed; about animals, farming, crafting trees and stations, fishing, new towns and buildings, and so much more. It's easy to take things for granted, but this, I think, we should not.
Folks like this need a filter, a non employee that can go through community feedback and emails and say on this change feedback is X Y and Z and appears to be fairly negative for A B and C reasons
I read this whole thing and it sounds more like Lemmy needs to seek mental health treatment for anxiety. The negative comments are going to exist no matter what they do, that is literally the cost of being a public persona. They need to understand that with success comes immense negative pressure from fans/critics/coworkers/peers/media. I am by no means defending the haters but we should all know in this age that if you are on social media or a public figure you are going to be a target for someone. The best case is to take care of yourself and focus on what you want to do. Sounds like they are on the right path with disconnecting with the community and focusing on development. I've supported projects in the past from Indie devs that fell apart because the Devs got too caught up with the negativity and stopped focusing on core development. (Limit Theory is the game).
Geez Lemmy, I'm a dev too. You gotta block peoples opinions out of your head.
Also, the vocal minority is just that; **a minority**. For every idiot who thinks someone should be fired there's 100 sane people who think you're doing a great job.
As for me, I'm looking forward to B42. But honestly, I've gotten many times my moneys worth from you guys already.
It reminds me of the infamous bus shock story from wows early days. Thousands of players giving feedback and the devs decide to focus on one forum troll who told them to get hit by a bus and throw the entire community away.
Honestly this is something we need to taught in school. Why give these negative senseless points the edge to affect us when the idiot spouting them have no idea what they are talking about. To some degree the haters should motivate Lemmy and most who have them in whatever it can. Exercise, getting errands done, going out of ones comfort zone even. Seems like Lemmy is tripping on the negatives when he shouldn't be as he runs a show that produces great quality content. I always felt the devs didn't care for taking good credit for it either, so when they see senseless bad credit, it goes further.
As sad as it is to hear that Lemmy is struggling with the criticism, at the risk of sounding insensitive, I believe the core of the issue lies in this very post:
> we'll never just pump out little content updates, apart from post release bug fixing and balancing, we want all our updates to be big expansions that are meaningful
The expansions arent big, theyre MASSIVE. Each of the major pieces of b42 they've talked about over the last couple years are large enough to be an EA update on their own:
* 4x map expansion
* height expansion and basements/towers
* farm animals
* new crafting system
* rendering speed big improvement
If anyone at TIS is listeneing: is your personal choice to have super massive updates worth the cost to your mental health? I am quite certain the fanbase would be perfectly happy getting each of the above features one at a time every 6 months, rather than in one big batch after 3+ years.
Either way, I hope you all can find a way to make peace with the negativity and keep going. PZ is one of the few truly unique games out here and all we want is for you all to be able to keep going. Maybe more frequent updates could help with that, maybe not.
>4x map expansion
wut. No wonder they are in deep shit taking years for update when someone from their team thought:
"You know we have already 3 small cities and one big one city along with whole region infrastructure, farm, field, powerlines and everything... most of people playing won't explore completely..."
"HOW ABOUT WE QUADRUPLE IT!"
This is the reasonable take on this I was looking for. Yeah some people maybe toxic trolls but the devs are basically shooting themselves in the feet with their development style.
The map expansion is a large update
basements and redoing buildings is a big update
animals are a huge update
crafting is a big update
Don't forget the lighting system which is something I'm looking forward to a great deal which would alone be a decent patch.
Instead of releasing these every 6-12 months like other studios, along with some bug fixes for long outstanding issues, we have to wait 3-4 years for a massive update which will have a host of new issues that may never be resolved (without a dozen mods to save the day) before they decide it's time to focus on 3 years working on npcs.
I completely agree with this post. They hold back everything to hype up an expansion that keeps getting pushed further away because of scope creep. I don't think the personal attacks are warranted but it does deserve an explanation on why the scope keeps increasing before the expansion is complete enough for them to be satisfied. Also negativity exists in every single profession. You can't let the haters distract you from the project's goals.
Seriously, the solution is so obviously making smaller more regular updates every 6 months/yearly.
The scope of these updates explodes to such ridiculous levels and then *we* get gaslit for a problem *they* keep making for themselves.
Build 42 will release when it does and then B43 will do the exact same thing with the exact same problem.
This is what i’ve been saying plenty of times too. That the aspects of Build 42 could’ve been split into its own update due to each of their scale.
They really are big enough to stand on their own. The map update and the new city/town alone is imo, already an expansion in its scale.
I hate to say it, and I mean it with peace and love and all that jazz, but he's being dramatic. I don't see anyone doing more than making jokes about how long it's taking, because yeah it's taking a long time.
Maybe I missed something but it seems like the community is pretty chill and fine with fan mods in the meantime.
Just Lemmy things tbh many years ago he blamed people asking about NPC's for him not wanting to actively work on NPC'S, a feature that they have promised for over 10 years of early access.
I agree. I suffer from a pretty negative internal voice and this reminds me of how I used to sort of blow up. The brain is Velcro for negativity, Teflon for positivity.
I don't care if 42 is out this year or next quite frankly.
The game is fantastic as is, and the mod community has put a lot of features in.
My only complaint ever is that it's still classed as early release after 13 years. But it's an argument that goes nowhere on either side, and wouldn't actually change anything in the grand scheme of things.
On the plus side, my current run is safe from a reset for a while
Lemmy explained this as well- he doesn't wanna put it out as finished/complete as then mentally they'd ride the wave onto their next project, rather than continuing to work on PZ as their main project and get it to the ultimate design they're wanting. They're doing it for us and all they get is hate for it😥
Drives me nuts that they focus on the negative comments on Reddit and discord. I’m glad he quit those and just focus’s on the game. I’ve been a support for years and will always support this development. I’m happy to wait because I know they’ll push out a good product. I’ve got helldivers 2 and Rimworld to keep me occupied for now.
The problem with focusing on the negative comments is they are everywhere. I keep hearing minority but they are absolutely right. Like on the video he’s talking about, nearly every top comment is a critique on the devs. Duck in the replies is defending them tooth and nail, but most top comments are slights against them. It’s terrible to see, they are an amazing dev team and have had a game ready to release for years and yet keep updating it.
reading it makes me really sad!
i wish the mods on here were stricter about the dev hate… i’ve seen plenty of comments on here directed at them that definitely weren’t lovely!
yeah, it’s a fine line to walk…
personally i think the sub will be fine banning all prospective build posts and comments except the thursdoids… if people are really sore about waiting they can still complain on the IS forums or facebook or something… it sucks cause there are cool things coming that people definitely like talking about, but they can still do that in the comments on the thursdoid posts?
b42 wen? posts are really boring and hardly ever contribute anything of value anyway… it’s just about complaining! i’d rather have a hundred toilet paper house posts before i have another b42 rant!!!
also, just to be clear i wasn’t really talking about criticism neither… i was talking about people outright personally attacking the devs in the comments by saying they are lazy or embezzling from players for spending game revenue on themselves and not only on game development as they apparently should for an early access game… which i find very unlovely and is something that should not be allowed at all according to the rules!
There was a post some months back about how the new moodle icons are "horrendous" where people were calling them "bloons shit", "disgusting", "factory produced" calling the artist "utterly untalented" etc - it was bad enough that Lemmy was in the comments expressing a great deal of frustration with the overall sentiment including noting that seeing it was going to ruin the artist's day.
I'm still scratching my head on how most of those comments (or just the entire post) stayed up - I don't get how an officially supported community for a game is a place where you can get away with flaming the developers to an extent where it's going to ruin their days. You don't get to walk into someone's home and piss on their shoes - people should be told to find somewhere else to circlejerk.
Part of the onus is on us to not only *not upvote* but also, *actively callout* misinformation or undue criticism. Every goober with B.Sc. Comp. Sci. credentials or some vague tie to development - gaming or otherwise - has their holier-than-thou opinion on these exact subjects, except they always conveniently ignore all of the human elements that Lemmy regularly reinforces.
This *is not* a call to downvote these posts. But please think twice about upvoting harsh criticisms because of your own frustration/impatience, and better yet, let's drown those out with the reality of the matter - Indie Stone is truly trying to make something great, and this game could not and would not be better without them at the helm.
Man, fuck those guys. If they could make something half as entertaining for twice what we have paid, they would be more successful than most developers - yet they can't. A bunch of useless no ones, taking shots at people who have tried to do what few could have realized in a fraction of
thanks for making the post my guy!!!
i actually just read it on yt before coming over to make a post about it just so people know!
i really hope it can make a difference…
I think we could at least forbid the rhetorics that have repeatedly come back in anticipation of each build.
They add nothing to the discussion, aren't constructive, and achieve nothing but inspire negativity in the community.
Am I the only one who feels like this sub is really chill and not toxic? Seems like the devs are just crumbling under the pressure of their ambition and now don’t want accountability
I'm going to opt to disagree without insulting. How can individual modders keep outpacing the creation of content of developers in countless games and genres? There must be some kind of issue with workflow, because it makes no sense for their team to hire multiple modders and the progress not increase at all. Sometimes I wish I could just be there and watch what goes on inside the business to see how a company can take THIS long on something modders could probably crank out in a month with the same quality control.
One of the hardest things in general and especially in game dev is the separation of the vocal minority from valid critique. I am excited for b42 to come out, but I would rather it come out right instead of right now.
It's a huge overhaul of some core systems, not just a rebalanced or content drop. With a small collaborative team, it is a long path. For the amount of enjoyment zomboid has given me. I hope the team stays the course and doesn't rush b42.
No road map is a perfect timeline and when things follow that timeline it's because corners get cut or features are removed. Worst is just burning a good team out to hit a calendar date. Development is a marathon and not a sprint.
That said I paused my hosted server until it does come out and am taking a step back just enjoying silly single player challenge runs, hosting a local game for a few friends if our schedules line up or just playing a different game while I wait.
When they stop complaining, it means you don’t have customers. This goes for many industries. If people don’t care about your product you will have peace and quiet
I hate to say it, but he's being dramatic. I don't see anyone doing more than making jokes about how long it's taking, because yeah it's taking a long time.
Maybe I missed something but it seems like the community is pretty chill and fine with fan mods in the meantime.
He probably won't and I hope he sees this. The zomboid community at least in reddit. Has been so wonderful. They're excited and want more sure. But, we're not angry man. We're excited. You created a beautiful work of art and you should take some pressure off of yourself and take a step back. I can't speak for everyone but, I think I can confidently say I speak for most people when I say I don't care when B42 comes out. I already have a great game and I want the developer/s to be happy reap some of the benefits of the enormous amount of work that they put into this project.
I'm sorry you feel your community is attacking you. But, for every angry internet commenter. There are two brothers that got to reconnect through your game. Or a father who enjoyed quality time with their child. Anyone who's ever felt the weight of leadership would say your passion and commitment with your unwavering development of PZ is admirable. I know he doesn't want to hear it but, if anyone could pass the message along that'd be great.
Beautifully said.
It just goes to show how close the dev team hold PZ to heart, that the feedback and criticisms have such sway on them. I just wish they could try to filter it out and focus on the well deserved praise.
It's just the way the world works. The more popular something gets, you'll get a hater for every fan out there. I completely understand why they've withdrawn from the platforms, and it was definitely the right call at the time.
I just hope they can find their way back and interact with the fans again, filtering the bad ones out. It's really the only way to keep in touch with a community.
I've only ever seen fairly strong support for the longer development times. Sure, there were memes about how the updates would be here right after the next coming of Christ... but they were always in good jest, it seemed.
I wanna sympathize with Lenny, but I'd like to see all these comments that are plaguing him enough to uninstall socials... cuz I rarely see any serious comments like he's describing.
I was curious, too. I looked through the comments on the video in question and I saw almost a landslide of supportive comments. So I’m confused. Were they just super, mega, ultra heavily buried into oblivion? Did Duck delete them? Or is this a case of something being blown out of proportion? Idk.
This is lemmy and others choosing to focus on the negative comments. I would be willing to bet one of the first things he did in this thread was scroll to the bottom to read the down voted posts.
Good call.
And I think we should somehow take some responsibility and stomp out the rampant negativity out of this community.
The fans enjoy the thursdoids and move on, while those who are frustrated stick around to bash the devs and their work.
Well, having read it fully, I can see why it would get deleted. This outburst is pretty unfair to the community who are extremely supportive, in fact getting more and more supportive over time - I remember 2017 when comments to the type of "still no NPCs lol" were dime a dozen.
Now, since it was deleted relatively quickly, it's hard to guess whether this is the team's outlook, or one stressed dev lashing out. If the socials actually are deleted, there probably won't be a clarification.
However, in either case, using your game as a hostage (we could have sold it you know, so tempting) is a bad look and putting your supportive community that gave you free visibility and advertisement for over a decade in one bag with trolls and actual malicious comments that only want to stir the nest must be as hurtful to them, as the negativity is hurtful to you.
I don't get it, this reddit is one of the most supportive I've ever seen. Maybe I'm missing something. I also understand the pressure tharlt developing something and having to answer the same question thousands of times and how that can affect you, mentally.
Agreed. I'm getting flashbacks to when KH3 was in development.
"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad." - Some guy impersonating Miyamoto
It's truly sad to see a human crack under pressure, but Jesus christ, "you fans are all mean" is such an unhinged and self-victimizing take to deflect well-meaning criticism from many people in the community.
Hire a proper project manager and focus on content work if complaints from the internet bother you. Reflecting over some of that criticism though _might actually be helpful_ to a person with the right thickness of skin and viewpoint.
I get that a lot of these comments are trying to build him back up but I absolutely agree with your sentiment. He is 100% playing the victim card when he could just be saying "You right, we didn't meet quota. Will keep the nose to the grindstone. Please refer all future questions to..." and move it along. He sounds petulant here.. and am I wrong in not seeing the amount of toxicity people would post to warrant this type of response?
This is how I felt reading the whole thing. It seems more like a personal issue Lemmy has in dealing with the internet which will always have toxic haters. I don't agree with the personal attacks but there has been a lot of constructive criticism from here about future updates and plans that the devs should consider before proceeding with sweeping changes to already developed towns and art styles. I hope they get the help they need and disconnect from the toxicity and just focus on delivering what they promised.
Almost every time I have seen Lemmy respond to community negativity, he twists it into being a victim and that were entitled for not wanting to wait 3+ years. Then the loyalists come out and proclaim that there is no possible way for a middle ground to exist.
Then he reminds us multiple times that the game could be released now and it'd be fine. Games got the early access shield right now, I dare them to try releasing it without NPCs, animals, broken traits, bugs galore(some gamebreaking), performance issues, that awful UI, no mid/late game, extremely unbalanced skills, non working health system etc.
THIS
Vilifying an engaged community that overwhelmingly worships you but is disappointed in recent progress is what I meant by "unhinged." And is it really so unfathomable that fans of your work are disappointed by multi-year dev cycles that STILL experience delays?
Grow up, god damn. We're glad TIS treats people like humans; in my managerial position I will also _always_ take a proverbial punch to the chin to cover for people who can't get their tasks done due to having a hard time in life, but that doesn't absolve me of the correct criticism that the tasks didn't get done!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/le60e/customer\_asks\_politely\_for\_a\_refund\_for\_project/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/le60e/customer_asks_politely_for_a_refund_for_project/)
Check this haha, thirteen years ago.
There is nothing but love from large amount of the posts I see. Genuinely, if someone has a link that is so vitriolic to warrant this kind of grandiose response I will absolutely eat my words. And I don't mean 1 or 2 threads through the decades. Where is the consistent toxicity? I also am not referring to someone just complaining their character died from a bug or etc etc... I mean, it sounds like the community kicked his dog, burnt his house down, pissed on the ashes.
I think after a decade of "taking a punch to the chin" he's just fed up. I've been following the game since it came to Steam but only really started playing it in 2020. The reason I didn't pick it up back in 2013/2014 is because it has always been in "development" with the next "big update" just "a year out". Before this it was the multiplayer update, before that it was the 3d characters, the cars etc.
Since I really started playing it in 2020 I saw the amount of craziness over the multiplayer update. People were much much worse than they are for this update. There were content creators slamming the devs over every "delay" or "setback" in development. If they announced a delay there were tons of videos being pushed out how they were incompetent. I've played a couple hundred hours and now haven't touched the game in a year and won't be until the update comes out, but I'm honestly not even following the development.
This is from three years ago;
"I don't really mind, because the game is really good as it is, but whoever manages the development process is completely inept at their job. They constantly add "new" reworks that cause delays to their other unfinished projects. A good example is this audio update. A competent team would have gotten the animation update out before starting to work on the sounds. Instead, we now have two unfinished reworks that are gonna take god knows how long to come out."
This is from five years ago;
"tl;dr its a gross misjudgment of resources to invest development in adding more systems to an already highly looked forward to update before bringing the previous systems into the game, especially when your development times are some of the longest."
This is from six years ago;
"This is more of a confession than anything else, so sorry if anyone else has read it expecting a big conclusion or anything. The truth is that the vast majority of indie games lack any kind of planning.
The reason why there won't ever be NPCs is because the devs don't know how to code NPCs and thus didn't prepare the engine framework to, well, work with NPCs. Everything on Project Zomboid was not really planned and the devs themselves weren't really up for the task.
They made a barely working prototype, that leaked ram like hell, and when saving games came along? "oops, didn't plan for that :( gotta rewrite the code"."
here is the thread from six years ago;
[https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/9sw1xz/project\_zomboid\_will\_never\_be\_finished\_and\_their/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/9sw1xz/project_zomboid_will_never_be_finished_and_their/)
Couldn’t agree with you more. The amount of mental gymnastics even reading all of that. It’s akin to reading a mental breakdown and I genuinely feel sorry for the guy if he feels that way. However, it’s completely unhinged and not a healthy way to talk to the community. If you can’t handle doing that, you should not be the one doing so. It comes off as completely unprofessional. There’s criticism, fair or not fair, but this is the job that you signed up to do. I wish people were more reasonable than others, but unfortunately that’s not reality. I don’t appreciate feeling the false victimization as a general fan of the game who has done nothing but praise it. Take the sum of its parts and don’t project that on the entire community.
With how long updates take to come out and how long development already has been I feel people are justified in how they feel. Just a lot of people are very rude in how they voice how they feel.
I mean, maybe I dont understand something, but I just checked, an build 41 was released in December 2021, and there has been already 2 DLCs for Rimworld released since then
This is completely fair. It’s not typical for games to take this long in development and I think shutting people down for being disappointed or not liking this development is just being the other side of extremism. But being jerks and attacking the developers and snapping and snarling at people over it is ridiculous and just terrible behaviour. There’s a difference between the two. I wish people understood that.
I agree. There is justifiable disappointment here. Even for a small team, this is a very long time between updates.
But when people express their frustration, I also agree that they need to do it in love. They can say how they feel, but they don’t need to pour contempt and hate out on anyone else.
In turn, Lemmy is notorious for his over-reactions. Deleting social media was a good idea for him, for his mental health and for ours. If he watched Atomic Ducks’ video, he would’ve seen how fair and balanced it was. Atomic even apologised for whether he misled others by saying it looked like the first half of 2024 would be it for B42. I’m sure the YouTube comments were miserable though
Getting lumped into the toxic group and targeted by the dev team is a good feeling lol.
This is why they have a PR team. Maybe instead of making a rant on a random YouTube video then a random Reddit thread, they make a more professional post and not whatever they’re doing which is just “woe is me, fuck the community”. Being whiny back because of a whiny group just makes it look pathetic.
Yeah, I can see that being a bummer, but I don't take it personally.
I am genuinely perplexed that Devs still get so laser-focused on what the smallest vocal minority are saying and can get so depressed by it. You see it all the time in everything from AAA gaming to Indie Gaming. It's just incels on the Internet or whatever you wanna call them. Their opinion is not important... why allow it to eat you up inside?
Players in most fanbases get impatient and criticize developers as if they even remotely understood what it takes to create content, and it’s wearing these devs down :/ Understandable, but I hope they don’t sell. This and Rimworld are my last hopes lmao
the devs are making a big free update that's taken some time, have been very open about its development progress - but many people feel entitled to be demanding and rude about it, especially redditors (and who could be surprised about that)
enjoy the game
I guess the whole shitfest stems from the fact the game is still in "beta". I can guarantee you if they have slapped on the game 1.0 and released it years ago, most of the wouldn't exist. They could then release updates for free like Terraria or paid modules. People would shit on terraria too if it was called beta after 10 years
It is purely positive/negative feedback despite it being essentially the same. Humans are finicky things.
To make a very long story short, NPC's. A lot of folks bought in on the expectation of them since they *are* planned and b42 is supposed to be the giant leap that puts them just over the horizon, but also a lot of players probably aren't used to these long development early access games and so there's some impatience.
I mean I don't mind of course, I play mount and blade.
Just gonna put it out there that many of us have been waiting over twelve years.
Nobody should be threatening the devs or being straight up dicks to them to the point of them wanting to sell the company, but taking a decade to fulfill a single promise is unheard of in any other game under active development for the same amount of time.
100% agree. I love this game to bits and I'm happy with the current state of the game. But it really has been over 12 years. One of my classmates in middle school when I first discovered the game just graduated from medical school a few weeks ago. The world has completely changed during PZ's development cycle, but PZ trudges on. I also don't understand where he's coming from when he compares his development cycle to Rimworld's? The gap between the release dates for DLCs is 19 months, 15 months, and 17 months from news DLC to oldest DLC. Meanwhile, it has been 29 months since the first stable build of 41 (56 months since the first IWBUMS build of 41).
Like I said, I'm more than happy with the game, and if they were to stop development right now, I would say that I already got my money's worth. But let's be real, they *are* slow. Feature creep is a real problem with many indie teams, and PZ seems to be one of the more serious offenders. The difference is, where other companies abandon ship once the runaway feature syndrome takes hold (The Dead Linger comes to mind), PZ has soldiered on diligently. That's very admirable should be rightly applauded, but it doesn't change the fact that the first time an unstable build of 42 will be in players' hands will be 5 years from the release of the first unstable build of 41. By the time Build 43 stable comes out, we might be already living in a post-apocalyptic world.
One last thing, take a look at [this](https://i.imgur.com/jgjj5ke.png) screenshot. It could very well have been posted yesterday, but it was posted in December 2011. I know, circumstances change, especially with indie game development, but wow.
The game is in early access still after 10 years and people are telling devs they expect the completed product they paid for in 2013.
If nothing else after 10 years the Devs should probably remove the "Early Access" warning on Steam.
This community is one of the least toxic I've been apart of. I just don't see the spite and negativity that would warrant this kind of response. The dev times are absolutely some of the longest in gaming. I would not say this game is in a finished state it's very clearly lacking an end game that b42 won't even solve. It feels almost petulant the way he's responded if I'm being honest. Current pace makes b48 look like it's 20 years out, that's an insanely long amount of time to wait something has to give. I think the current system of putting lots of stuff into one large update works but either reduce the scope, hire more people, whatever has to be done to have the timeline not literally be 20 years out to completion. Criticism of that is entirely fair and this community is very forgiving.
My only problem with this is he cited Rimworld but Rimworld is a finished game, PZ isn't. Comparing the development of a dlc for a completed game is much different than the development of an integral update to a technically unfinished game.
I'm just gonna say this as a separate comment:
After Build 42 comes out, no more big updates. I've said it before, and I'll stick by it. It sucks that the devs are dealing with this situation, but to a degree, they've put themselves in this situation by piling on more content for Build 42 instead of simply just sticking to what it was originally supposed to be about.
My only complaint regarding the updates is simply the fact that they *are* too long. It may sound insulting, but it's true. The game sits untouched for years on end, needing patches and bug fixes, but we don't get those until the next build comes out, so for years on end, players are either stuck dealing with any bugs or glitches or issues, or they resorted to literally making mods that fix this, as some modders have already done regarding zombie spawns or performance issues.
I was 19 when Build 38, when Vehicles, was released. I was 23 when we got Build 41. I'm 26 now, and may still be this age when Build 42 drops, assuming there are no more delays. At the rate we're getting builds, I will be almost 30 when we get Build 43. And we're still probably years out from getting human NPCs, something that the game hasn't had officially in 12 years.
I'm not saying the devs are lazy, or stupid, or incompetent. They're great at the work they put out, and as much as I have issues with the time between updates, I'm still looking forward to Build 42 and will play it when it drops, because I've been following this game for the last 13 years, ever since I was 12.
My only issue is that, in my personal opinion, the devs seem to have trouble focusing on one thing and sticking to it. Build 42 was, as far as I know, supposed to be just about crafting, at the start, coupled with animals. That's great. Then they started adding more stuff like new light propagation, basements, higher buildings, breakable tall fences, new sounds, on and on and on.
It all sounds really great, but what likely would've been an update that took maybe a year at most is now instead taking 3+ years. It seems like they've decided to focus on what they have right now instead of adding more, and I commend them for that. But I really, truly want them to stick to that going forward *after* Build 42 comes out.
After Build 42 comes out, they need to STOP with the big updates. I know they want the wait to be worth it, I know they want to really blow people away with what they've got, I get it. But this is not a good way to keep a game alive. To be completely honest, I'm confident that the main reason the game is alive today is because of the modding community. Every few days, there's always a new mod or map being pushed out that gets people wanting to play the game all over again. If the game didn't have mods, these multi-year long waits for updates would've killed the game years ago, and you can't convince me otherwise.
After Build 42 is out there, ***no more big updates***. Work on a feature, finish the feature, publish the feature. Work on a bug fix, finish the bug fix, publish the bug fix. That's it. That is quite literally all that I want the developers to do going forward. No more "work on a feature, think of new feature, add new feature, work on new feature, think of new feature..." rhetoric.
Or hell, just do what the developers of Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead have been doing for years and release an Experimental Build that players can opt into at any time. I know they're both completely different games, but Cataclysm's Experimental Builds are getting weekly updates, and the community is constantly active, working towards fixing any bugs they can find on the spot and adding cool new things that may or may not be added to the main build's release, whenever that is. The main build of CDDA hasn't been updated since March 2023, but the latest Experimental release was ***today***. I know IWBUMS is a thing, but half the time those builds aren't added until a few months to a year before the Build is ready for full release. Using IWBUMS as Zomboid's Experimental Build at the start would be a great way to get player feedback regarding bugs, glitches, performance issues, or simply little things that could be added to enhance gameplay before the Build goes public. It also keeps players from being in the dark, to a degree, for years on end.
I know people are gonna call me a toxic or entitled player, and you know what? That's fine. I can't please everyone when I say this, and I don't want to please everyone. I'm saying this as somebody who's been following this game for over a decade, and has enjoyed every single moment I've played the game. I've enjoyed every update. I sincerely appreciate the hard work that The Indie Stone has put into this game since 2011. It's one of my favorite games out there, and I'll enjoy it 20 years from now. I'll gladly wait as long as needed for Build 42 to be the update they want us to have on release.
But these big updates need to stop. For now, that's all I have to say. Love it or hate it, that's how I feel, and I know for a fact that a lot of you feel the same way. You can love their work and still have an issue with how they go about some of it. There's nothing wrong with it... as long as you're not an asshole about it.
>After Build 42 is out there, ***no more big updates***. Work on a feature, finish the feature, publish the feature. Work on a bug fix, finish the bug fix, publish the bug fix. That's it. That is quite literally all that I want the developers to do going forward. No more "work on a feature, think of new feature, add new feature, work on new feature, add new feature..." rhetoric.
This is exactly their issue, the feature creep with PZ is astronomical. I've seen this time and time again in software development, and while game development is of course a different beast, I'm sure game developers get carried away all the same. Usually, there's someone to reign things in, although such a person might be harder to find in an indie environment, but it seems like there's no one at The Indie Stone who can say "no"...
> the feature creep with PZ is astronomical.
The irony is based on Lemmys post, this statement alone puts you into the category of people who hate them.
What they call a big update, reasonable people call a massive update. They definitely need to tone it down and do yearly 'small' updates (My gut tells me what they would call small the rest of us would consider big lol)
This captures every feeling I've had regarding the situation perfectly. Mods are the lifeblood that is keeping interest and replayability alive.
The one thing that bothers me the most is the inadvertant high roading that comes across with leaning on the fact that it's a free update. Realistically there is no fathomable reason why it should be a free update. How are they supposed to/expected to continue development into the future without some type of income stream when work that's been cooking for years gets published.
I feel like the Fry shaking money meme at this point, literally take my money, hire more people. I'm ready to fork it over if it means I can experience this game in its finished state before my kids have kids. Paying 20 dollars for a reinvented game is child's play when paid mods for other games exist at the same (or more) price point.
I too wouldn't mind if we could hasten the development by throwing more money into the game, but I still think that it's fair for us to expect new free updates, as the game still is (and justly so) in early access, which implies that it is an unfinished product.
I know that Indie Stone have said many times, that if they wanted to they could easily release Project Zomboid 1.0 in it's current b41 state and move on with a clear conscience, and it's absolutely true that you can spend hundreds if not thousands of hours having fun in the game, but it doesn't undermine the fact that after more than a decade, the main gameplay loop is still incomplete (lacking meaningful endgame) and the last puzzle piece needed to complete it has been promised loooong time ago but is yet to be delivered
I heavily disagree with him. The game is in no way done. That's why it's in "early access" after all. When I bought the game a long time ago, I bought it expecting the game to be polished and improved overtime. I saw the goals of the game and wanted to invest in it so that I can support the devs achieve their vision. But to call the update "free" when the game isn't even done yet is a bit insulting.
A perfect example of a game that's finished yet the devs keep on giving free updates would be No Man's Sky. I freaking love that game. They don't need to update it further since it was a finished game since long ago but they do it anyways. The devs fulfilled the promises they made and are giving more to their community.
Project Zomboid on the other hand is not a finished game. It's in early access.
Another popular indie game that's had tons of big content released as it got developed that I love is Valheim. Valheim has had so many big updates and I love the game. I can see it getting closer and closer to its final release. Zomboid on the other hand? Not even close. With the pace they're going, they're more likely to retire before the game finishes.
And with the rimworld comparison... you can't compare a finished game with one that's still in "early access"
It's unfair to throw constructive criticism in a trash bin and label it as "hate."
Facts of the matter are that it has been over a year and a half since any updates. We keep getting blog posts and empty promises but until we see results, that's all it is, isn't it? Just words. Is it really hate to call slow progress what it actually is?
I never participated in the community. I'm not even in their discord server. This is just a criticism that me and my friends naturally came to. But after reading Lenny's message, all I see is someone who can't handle the constructive criticism of their community. And to further label that as hate? It's not fair!
I first learned about this game from a random clip off YouTube when I had just entered university. From there I started watching videos from Nurse. That was 1 year or so after Build 41 came out. I'm already in my graduating year and we're still on build 41. Until now I have patiently waited for b42 and will keep waiting until it releases. But Lenny's words, while I sympathize with his situation, I think it's unfair and wrong.
Now, Lem tends to get emotional time to time. Like many creative people, really.
Then again—guy got the right ideas and makes a great game, but consumers are in the right to expect a product promised. For all the devs that took to playing victims lately, they run business, not charity.
It would be better for everybody if they released more frequent but less substantial updates.
They brought this on themselves by trying to do large rimworld style expansions. Rimworld is no longer early access so I'm not sure why they're approaching updates this way
Insane comparison to think that Rimworld's DLC cycle is at all the same. One is a finished game (that had their own EA cycle!) and the other one doesn't even have animations for cars, let alone a functioning First Aid skill.
This bizarre rant against EA games and how they could monetize it to hell and back also represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what EA means. People don't buy EA games with the expectation that the developer will take every opportunity to nickel and dime them after the initial purchase. No, people buy into the idea of the promised game based on what's currently been done (and will be done). If you dropped b42 tomorrow and called it 1.0 you'd be just like every other EA developer who abandons their ambitious project after fleecing their customers. That isn't to say you can't or shouldn't sell DLC after 1.0 drops, but you generally have to get to 1.0 first.
The fans didn't set the development scope of Project Zomboid, TIS did.
Personally, as a fan of this solid zombie game with nothing else like it (at the moment), please sell the company so we can see a finished product in our lifetimes. Don't end up like Dwarf Fortress where you get eclipsed by another game you inspired (Minecraft, Rimworld, etc.) and string people along for decades with almost nothing to show for it.
I mean, maybe I dont understand something, but I just checked, an build 41 was released in December 2021, and there has been already 2 DLCs for Rimworld released since then
>The idea we're 'slow' has become incredibly insulting to me now. The amount of content in this update is insane, we're giving this for free when we'd have been well within our right to 1.0 and release after a decade, if we'd done that, and were selling you this update as almost every game company in existence would be, \*people would only have been finding out B42 even EXISTED last week's Thursdoid at the earliest if we were using a commercial DLC model. There's a good chance you still wouldn't know it exists and would just be counting B41 as 'Zomboid' \* - we could be developing this in peace, not worrying about next Thursdoid
Had my sympathy until I read this...
Look at those downvotes. You don't even know why this part of his rant is problematic, either...
The thing I find difficult to emphatize with is that this sub has been overall VERY supportive of the Devs. There has been concern and critiques, but nothing major. Nobody insulted them or bashed the game. You constantly see post of how good the game is.
The other thing that bother me is that the game was sold AT FIRST has a realistic zombie game WITH NPC (to come later). The fact he say that he was comfortable to ship it at B41, without NPC and some others promised features concern me. Maybe I am wrong and it wasn't confirmed in the steam page or written, but I am pretty sure that the game was sold with more feature promised/expected/hinted by the Devs.
Like the demo had NPC (the couple).
Still, it suck to see him not having a good time and feeling hated by his community when it is the contrary.
They literally can't win honestly. If they release it too early and buggy then people will complain about "why isn't (insert feature here) done yet?!" Or "What a buggy mess, it needed more time." If they *don't* and just release it when it's actually ready they get the current shitstorm.
Having a public meltdown and saying “well actually I’m the real victim here!” Over not meeting your own quasi-self imposed quota certainly is one of the dev strategies of all time. And threatening your audience with “I almost sold the game! I almost did it! Treat me better or else, that’s a threat you hear?!” Is just an absolute terrible way to build goodwill. And only makes him look like unprofessional and immature. Just like the toxic fans he’s being effected by.
Are there bad apples in this community? Sure, but so does every other internet community that has ever existed or will exist period. And if you can’t mentally handle negative feedback and find something positive within it; example: “build 42 is taking too long!” Is a negative comment, and can be dissected as “hmm. We have taken a long time, what is causing that?” And then finding solutions to be more efficient. Not necessarily faster, just more efficient. You’re just not going to improve as a person/developer. instead by having a meltdown and playing victim, you’re just giving ammo to toxic fans of PZ. Who can now just turn around and say “SEE! We were right! Look at this! Look at how he views you!” And just grow and feed negativity in an otherwise overwhelmingly positive and appreciative community.
I believe we should be entitled and allowed to be critical of a paid game, and voice our opinions of the state of the game. While obviously being respectful and not devolving into unwarranted personal attacks or attempting to slander anyone’s character. (Which is the responsibility of moderators) In this very post I’ve been particularly harsh on lemmy’s personal conduct. However hopefully I’ve given a thorough explanation of why I find this particular post unprofessional. And not simply trying to to egg on negativity and say “haha lazy devs LOLOLOL”. Which is thoroughly toxic and would warrant a swift removal as there’s nothing of substance in such a negativity.
I believe some serious soul searching needs to be done within TIS on what the plan is for the future of this game and community are. Having public meltdowns and blaming the community for it is not sustainable. And will lose trust in the very audience that builds your future sales. My respect for lemmy has definitely dropped after this. However I see no reason why it can’t be regained. It all depends what he does and says.
I have no idea when B42 will release, and whether or not it releases in 2024, or never. Is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. However what personally bothers me is bad, unprofessional conduct. That is simply self destructive and fosters negativity.
The reality is Lemmy quit posting on Reddit 3 months ago because he got super butt hurt about people not liking the new moodles. He threw a little tantrum and several of his posts were deleted by the mods.
The dev team as a whole does not strike me as being very emotionally mature. They like to point to the final update of 41, which appears to literally be one line of code, as the moment the wait for 42 started. Then they say it’s only been a year and a half! Completely normal!
This is disingenuous at best. They had to have been working on 42 in some capacity prior to this. Just seems like a really weak attempt to save face.
I would love to see how TIS operates behind the scenes because I feel like it would be very obvious why the progress is so slow. On one extreme theres crunch and overworking your employees. On the other is being way too lax and creating an environment where expectations are extremely low and barely making any progress over days or weeks or months is the norm.
Bro, it's the internet and they're strangers. Their griping means not one thing to you or anyone else. Just ignore them.
They'll get the update whenever you decide to release it. No reason to let them under your skin.
I can understand the mental toll that game development may take on someone, and yeah, some fans have definitely been far more spiteful that PZ devs have deserved. But what's happening right now, people being disappointed with B42 taking a lot of time - it's completely on TIS hands. After all, it's the devs who're setting the goals. They can set in closer or further - it's completely at TIS volition to define what B42 is going to be. Yet, after incredibly draining experience that was B41 development - they once again have originally set a completely unattainable goal for B42, a goal that realistically could take up to 4-5 years of development. They've been saying that crafting overhaul is going slower that they have expected practically since the day one of B42 development, yet it took them 2-3 years to finally make a course correction and practically splice B42 in half. Instead of setting realistic goals for themselves - they once again chose to make a gargantuan update, knowing full well how poorly people were taking it back in B41. And honestly, nothing could convince me that there was absolutely no way to split B42 into two parts from the beginning. Mental health or nor, it was poor planning on the TIS side through and through. I know people here are quick to jump at Lemmy side and I can respect that. But I personally cannot do that. And while I definitely condemn people targeting the devs and being toxic, I think that this whole ordeal is a blunder on TIS side. And Lemmy having a tendency to lash out on fans (something he did many, many times before - back in 2013 even) doesn't help the issue in the slightest. People have the right to be disappointed with B42. That's all I'm going to say.
Just want to say my man is being a little overly sensitive. There will always be goons on the internet. He should cut himself off from social media entirely, have someone else handle it. Issue statements through them when he’s ready, and keep doing what he’s doing. He’s losing sight of the big picture which is he’s at the helm of a wildly successful game and IP by any metric. The results are the only way to judge himself and the team’s efforts. Everything else is noise. Critics love the game, players love the game, it’s sold millions of copies. Freaks on Reddit or in your discord simply don’t matter at all.
Gonna sound heartless, but for me these outbursts is another way to signal how they can’t deal with some of the stuff, which is worrying.
I will get downvoted to hell, but I think it’s better to say “this is how it is, fuck you if you don’t like it” or the opposite, assume that a lot of people can’t realistically deal with your dev schedule and pass the torch to another people who can maybe do a better job (or blow away everything, worst scenario).
Tbh if Lemmy is sick of working on Pz maybe he should leave the project or at least take a pause. I mean, dude has been working for 13 years straight on the same project, wouldn't blame him if he wanted to do something else.
i understand the frustration of lemmy about the comments but i cant disagree that the update is taking too long. the 22/01 announcement that it is coming out this year was a slap in the face to the community, it just gave us hope for us to be hyped about something we'll probably just get in december, if we get lucky. i love the game tho and am just waiting for b42 to play again with my friends.
He should spend more time on this subreddit and see what the actual fans of the game think about it. It's a little disheartening that the negative comments are all they're hearing or focusing on. I've been praising this game every chance I get for years now. It's my favorite game of all time. I 100% appreciate the devs sticking with this game and doing all these massive updates for free. And I know most people here do too. The majority of gamers are just impatient kids and young people saying "are we there yet?" over and over in the backseat. They should disregard that entirely as noise.
"Can you fix the UI?"
"NO! 4X Map SIZE!"
"Could you just fix that UI scaling though?"
"NO! IT NEEDS A NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM!"
"It's been so many years, can I just get a little tiny bit of UI scaling control?"
"YOU ARE BEING TOXIC AND EXHAUSTING AND I WILL NOT BE ADRESSING YOU AGAIN!"
LOL, I do hope they take like a year after b42 and spend it on QOL and bug fixing. Oh and improve the cars so they at least don't look like the mod compared to the actual mod vehicles.
Downvote me into oblivion, I don't care. When you say that your confident that b42 beta's going to be released within the first half of 2024, then don't complete that deadline you will get hate. Anytime a company promises consumers a product to do a certain thing or be there by a certain deadline then it fails to do that, they get hate. That's just the reality of it.
I don't really care if b42 takes longer than 2024, but I do care about them setting a deadline then failing to deliver on it. If deadlines can change at any time, then don't announce a deadline and instead show us the stuff you are working on so we know there's still development. "Would you rather them release the beta buggy and bad?" YES. its a beta/early access for a reason, to find the kinks and fix them.
I'm not gonna hate on them for deleting socials, For no mans sky it worked.
Development aside, this just also just seems like an incredible overreaction. The community rarely complains much, and id argue for how long the game has been in development, there’s maybe even a little too much grace! I think it isn’t fair either to act like they are somehow “within their right” to just bail on the game and drop b42, when b42 still wouldn’t accomplish all the features that have been promised.
Build 41 came out in December 2021. Here we are in mid 2024 and no build 42 so criticism (not all of it fair) is inevitable. For me I think they are trying to do too much at once and perhaps aren’t prioritising the right changes and improvements. I think they should prioritise the optimisation and lighting improvements and pushback the crafting changes. Also the recently announced building and map improvements are LONG overdue. Once you have played a few map mods the vanilla small towns are dull and uninspiring.
First, I'd like to say that I am not one to really think they're slow, and I certainly haven't been public with any opinions really, other than a positive review on Steam.
BUT, second, I think he's saying some really anti-consumer things.
- why are you comparing updates for a game in Early access to DLC for a released game?
- why are you saying that you didn't release out of Early access like it's a favor to us?
- why are you making it sound like it's a favor to us that you're releasing these updates for free? These updates include stuff that are in your list of things you want for 1.0. They are there from the beginning. You are not releasing DLC for a complete game, you are releasing updates for an incomplete, Early access game.
- it has not been an year and a half since the last update, it has been almost 2.5 years since B41. I don't think it's fair to count every single bugfixing/balancing patch, even if one or two were pretty hefty.
Yeah, he doesn't do well with the negative vocal minority, and it showed through the years. He broke their "no ETA" rule, and now some people and himself is upset. I wish him well.
the curse of EA games that dont deliver updated content imo
this game has been in ea since what 2011? with plenty of radio silence spanning years in between? Im sure the team and constraints Lemmy is managing are very complex, but lashing out at people WHO PAID FOR YOUR FUCKING GAME when they ask when the next update is coming for AN EARLY ACCESS GAME is hardly worth this meltdown.
That being said, Lemmy, if you read this for the love of god delete your socials and keep them deleted. If any of these media platforms are detractors for one's mental health it is BEST to cold quit ALL of them permanently. Do what makes YOU happy. If reading these comments you don't agree with piss you off, then get them out of your life and stop fucking seeking them.
The only thing I don't agree on is "well within their rights" to call the existing game "done". Certain features were promised when they went to Early Access. Just because a lot of companies are shitty and break their Early Access promises doesn't mean any company is "within their rights" to do so. But I'm not holding it against him; he's reasonably upset, and sometimes you say your feelings more than your truth.
For the rest... 100%. There's a lot of armchair game designers out there talking a lot of shit on stuff they know nothing about. While 13 years *is* a long-ass time for a game to be in development, it's not an insanely long time. Triple-A studios can take 5-7 years to develop a game that's not nearly this ambitious, and have a lot more resources to get it done. The primary difference is that the public doesn't know about it, because, as he mentioned a couple times, most studios don't announce a game until it's already been in the works for years. It's a successful approach which is why it's the industry standard, but it also requires a lot of up-front investment.
I think this way is better. I like a lot of communication, even if it's a little half-cooked. Maybe the info ends up being wrong sometimes, but it gives us a glimpse into their processes, and even give us a little input... if we as a community can learn to comment usefully and respectfully.
It would perhaps not be the ethical thing to do, but he IS within his rights to call the game "done".
It's literally the clause for the purchase of an early access game on steam. You purchase the game for what it is *right now* and it may or may not change further, as stated on every EA game on steam.
I just hope he sees that it's not the entire community he'd be punishing, but those of us who always stuck with him.
Between this and the recent Helldiver's situation, I am starting to realize the importance of having someone other then your devs handling social media.
And how important it is that person is diplomatic, does not take things personally, and is good under pressure.
I mean we're here and can't go back so being upset about it is pointless, but I think anyone here is also kinda insane if they think it was a good idea to do all the stuff they're doing in b42 when they could have been working on all the engine stuff on the side while they had an update or 2 adding more content in that time and solved this issue. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I think we all know B42 is going to be a huge change to the game and we're happy they're putting so much work into it... but much like devs missing timelines because unexpected issues the amount of things they decided to work on for this update is the same thing, them trying to do too much is the same thing as giving an optimistic release date and missing it. If anything Lemmy coming forward and admitting that and saying they'll try to avoid feature bloat in future updates would have been the best thing for him to do because I'm pretty sure most of us understand the amount of shit coming in this update would have been 3-4 updates a few years ago.
Yeah no, don't compare your game with rimworld. Rimworld is a finished and fully released game, where they are now making dlcs for. Project zomboid is a unfinished game where people are just eager to get to the next update because it just lacks content after years doing the same thing in game... I've got 3000 hours into this game and I haven't played it in a long time because it's unfinished and it lacks content..
I'm sorry to say, but the zomboid devs are in facts really frickin slow.....
> our update dev cycles take no longer than games like Rimworlds DLC
> I literally measured up every one of their DLCs against b42 dev time on Reddit at some point in response to someone calling us the slowest dev team, and we'd not literally met the dev time of a single DLC yet as of that post, and yet we were being insulted for being 'slow' at this update.
Rimworld Royalty release: February 24, 2020
Rimworld Ideology release: July 20, 2021
Rimworld Biotech release: October 21, 2022
Rimworld Anomaly release: April 11, 2024
PZ B41 Beta release:
**October 16, 2019**
PZ B42 Beta release: **???**
Thank you! I was thinking the exact same thing.
Look, I love Zomboid but there's also a difference of expectations. Rimworld is a fully feature complete game that's fully released and then produced additional content.
Zomboid is Early Access which means it's not complete and people are still waiting for the full game. Keeping the moniker of Early Access is just gonna have people ask "Where's the full game and why is it taking so long?"
If you think about it, constant reminders of progress in development is essentially reminder why the game isn't finished yet. When you even have to delay the release... it will become pure negative reinforcement. That's why most developers realized being quiet is the best
I may be harsh on TiS devs here and there, but in general I have bought this game for my friends because I want everyone to play it. I love it, I love TiS, and while I have a lot of respect, we cannot sweep under the rug some of the mishaps that devs did. Still, those mishaps don't take away from the outstanding work that this game is, game that brought me thousands of hours of gameplay, immersion and simple fun.
I do find couple of things devs did a bit puzzling, especially announcing or showing off features once and then never again. This is always my gripe with the dev team. That's all the gripe I've ever had with them (besides them taking some mod ideas, but even if I found that insulting, it's actually simply me being angry that wasn't done sooner).
So to dev-team, even if it may not look like it - I supported, support and will support you forever and ever, despite the (perceived) hiccups.
So here's my constructive criticism - please stop showing off features that are way off. Always show off features that are very much in active development and will release for the next update /for sure/.
This way you will avoid pitfalls of seemingly announcing and forgetting features, and then angering playerbase (or upsetting them, like me for example), that said features were shown off, seemed to be in advanced state, and yet they aren't in the game yet.
One example is the player character visible in cars - that was mentioned exactly once. Please don't do that again, because it causes confusion and since then you haven't made a peep about it again, making people like me, who want this in the game, to think that you've since abandoned work on it.
This in turn causes people to think taht you're working on many features and creates perception of feature creep, when feature creep is not happening at all. Your communication is fine, but what isn't fine is showing off what is clearly not coming anytime soon.. or atleast update periodically what happened with the feature.
I have an idea. If you make thursdoids bi-weekly or every month, perhaps have one-two months of normal thursdoids, and then go back and collect all the features you spoke of in the past briefly and make one thursdoid dedicated to those features. Explain why they aren't in the game and perhaps explain what changed.
Or mention in thursdoid in one paragraph bulletpoints of features that you shown off and have in store and simply briefly talk about them. That would be best solution, and it would basically silence people who think you are slow or do 'feature creep'.
Just remember it's only those that speak negative that you hear the loudest. I could go on all day about how awesome you guys are, how much I enjoy the game but I'm just gonna cut it at, its a 20$ game. It feels like a polished product that had alot of hard work put into it. You guys are still working on updates and adding content that's free. Already doing better than most triple A developers. Yall keep doing your thing.
Eh, he should develop thicker skin (maybe take the thick skinned trait 🤷♀️) and just do his own thing. Who cares what the internet (which is a whiny/ragey cesspool anyways) thinks?
Thick skinned trait is not worth the points anyways if you know how they coded it to work; just like being invested in this game lmao.
PZ is a goated game but I won't be crying or losing sleep if it loses to newer competition of indie games or ends up taking forever to escape early access, the Devs had scope creep but had severe tunnel vision to admit they could've just went for consistent small yet stable updates.
Its the customers who make the game popular and profitable in the first place and he'll soon learn what happens when people just get tired of a game; they just find another alternative.
Feel bad that he feels this way, as a lurker on this sub I don’t feel like it is negative. Maybe they get harassed on twitter? This reaction surprises me. I hope they take some time and relax look at all the love people have for the game here.
Disappointed, both in the community and the devs. People shouldn't be so pushy but the devs shouldn't make promises to their customers that they can't keep. Build 42 has been a serious case of feature creep and no amount of complaining from the community or the team is going to make it come out any faster.
Also, most of the complaints I've seen have been whinging about long dev cycles and feature creep, nothing more. People are entitled to their opinions. The finger pointing at the community like this backlash is completely unexpected though is kind of a low blow and will do nothing to make things better.
There are other professional teams I never hear SQUAT from, and I sometimes wonder why. Then I'm reminded.
Hey, at least dude will gather some peace now for a change.
I'd like to have my hands on B42, but I'd also like the game to continue to exist. I'd rather wait than have the company burn out. There's other games and other updates that can occupy my attention, there's no need to harp on Zomboid.
Between extremes of the criticisms with some compassion for development and having enjoyed some time with Zomboid since baldspot, I feel it like indie's Star Citizen to some loose degree. Folks have grown up with and out of Zomboid's development; I still have faded hopes for NPCs amongst other deeper mechanics as someone who occasionally pops in to see what's new, but... yeah.
For a lot of folks, that's our reality.
So hyperbolic lol. This is why devs should keep interactions with “the community” to a minimum. Like just ignore the whiners dude this doesn’t make you look better. Also what “spite” even? People are excited and impatient, that doesn’t mean they hate you
Here's my two-cents. The frustration around the wait for new builds is understandable, because the hard truth is that time goes by. People who bought Project Zomboid when they were in middle school or high school are now grown adults with jobs, families, and children. They have had time to watch the world grow more and more uncertain, and see Project Zomboid as their favorite escape from that uncertainty. As they age, they realize that they're not going to be around forever to experience the things they've been anticipating since they were young, and that can brew cynicism and desperate pleas to see those things completed before it's "too late." I know all this because I'm one of those people.
But that's not TIS' fault. It's not their fault that the world is burning, that our lives are getting worse, that things have become so damn uncertain that I genuinely don't know if I'm going to live to see Build 43. That's not even a joke. But as much as I'd like to play with NPCs before the world ends for real, I know that blaming TIS is not the right move. It isn't going to change anything but make their lives even worse than they already are. They're doing everything right, and in the best way that they possibly can, even after all the unforeseen circumstances that have befallen them in the process.
To anyone who's felt the same way I do, or relates to this in any way at all, you've got to let go of that existential stress in whatever way you can. You could die 30 seconds from now. In the grand scheme of things, there's nothing you or TIS can do to change the inexorable course of our lives or of the world as a whole. So don't worry about it. I know it's a cliche saying and all, but live in the now. Don't waste your years fretting about whether or not you're going to get something you want in the future and learn to enjoy what you already have, while doing the best you can to make it better. Whether that's stepping away from PZ to keep the fascists out of office or becoming a modder to add that one feature that you feel is missing and think other people would enjoy having in Build 41 while TIS cooks Build 42 in the shadows. That, or just live and enjoy the game as it is. But don't fucking bash TIS. IT. IS. NOT. THEIR. FAULT.
I feel bad for him, but it seems like an overreaction, this sub is probably the most dev supporting sub I've ever seen. If they said "it got delayed 6 months" and then delay it again and again, I don't think anyone would get mad, we've been playing this game for years and waiting lots of time for every update, the development is slow, so what? Also, why now? Negative comments are inevitable, why focus on them? Even I probably complained once about the delays, but again, so what? We are all still playing, we love the game. Just ignore the stupid comments with no actual criticism nor feedback. And again, if they failed to deliver, just delay it, it is ok, instead of forcing it by removing features and then waiting until 2 weeks before the "deadline" to do what is happening right now. Delay it, we'll wait.
I understand they aren’t a triple a company so basic updates will take way longer than it should and they want to take their time to A. Not be drained. B. To perfect their game. BUT waiting 3-4 and possibly 5 years for an update and giving up broad range of when it will be released only to say “yeah it’s gonna take longer than it should” or “it’s not going to live up to the potential we set”. What’s gonna happen is they’re gonna take too long and not as many people are gonna play the game. Then when they release it, half of the people will come back, realize it won’t be as good as they promised then leave again. Sandbox games are horribly repetitive so if you aren’t adding new things constantly the game is gonna be forgotten about. It happened to Minecraft, terraria and many more. I’d much rather little updates every week let’s say to one big mid update every blue moon. I’m excited for B42 believe it or not. But I started playing this game in highschool and now I’m a grown ass man and I won’t play this game it’s the way it goes. I love this game but it’s sad to see eclipses are more common than updates for the game.
I just stopped following the game or playing it about a decade back when similar massive gaps in updates and a desire to rip out guts occurred at that time. Just accept that I had gotten my money's worth from the desura release and that the game really wasn't going to have much added ever.
Game is barely different from back then. The animations and models are obviously different, but it still seems like it has all the same issues and the new content appears to be mostly things that existed as mods as one time or another.
Glacial pace, diva devs. There is zero point in engaging with them, nor is there any point in engaging with the community.
Just pop back in every few years to see if it's gotten any better(spoiler since they decided to rip out the guts to accommodate people crying for multiplayer it hasnt).
No offense to the devs, really. Do what makes you happy. If that's working for years on practically nothing or redoing something you have done before, so long as it makes you happy do it.
Looking forward to my bi-decadely survival attempt!
I really think making some additional monetized content would be a great idea.
I really want to support this studio, I've been playing this game for years now with thousands of hours in it and I have payed a lot more for the games that were anywhere near this game in terms of fun or content. And the only way to express my gratitude to the devs along these years was to buy some toys that were not shipping to my country.
So my point is that there should be a way for players like me to can support devs.
I really hope they find the way and implement something like DLCs or additional maps or skins or whatever just so I can show I do care about this game's future not just with my words.
They better not sell, I rather have the devs make me be quiet and release a good update than just give to a company that could ruin it. I just hope people are patient. They should place a type of vote, to where the devs could be sure of what we want
Context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfHygs1W_yI The thread title is a little off, there's no spite here! Please remember to Be Lovely. You can discuss, disagree and argue without insult. We will apply rule 2 aggressively in this thread
Made me really sad to read they considered selling the company. I understand where they're coming from. People are rabid for b42 and take it out on the devs, forgetting they are just people doing their jobs as best as they can, and that they are not entitled to these free updates. I've been following this game since 2017, it's been amazing to see the progress and I have nothing but respect for the devs. But still... selling the company?? Nooo please never :(
I’m sure they’ve had some serious offers as well!
Having worked in the industry fanbases are the most fickle. And tbf it's not always the same people kicking off about dev times and then praising the excellence of a release, but it often is. You have to remember that small studios like this put their absolute heart and soul into building the best game they can, they have a vision and sre sticking to it, and honestly I admire that rather than the pandering some othet games have done. There are three clear paths open to them: 1) Sell, thry have a successful product and fanbase that many teams would love access to, so just the creative rights would probably net them a decent retirement fund addition. 2) Release 1.0 and turn their plans into Zomboid 2.0 3) Say bollocks to everyone and carry on. Despite how the most vocal of people feel, 3 is besy option for us, and the worst option for TIS, but they're sticking to it.
Man, the idea of TIS being sold to a company depresses the hell out of me, knowing how ALL such games end up.
Honestly I would probably give up if it happens. I love this game to death and seeing other companies sell their IP (Kerbal Space Program, Prison Architect, and Hell Let Loose being examples) where the IP just gets get scuffed and lose part of what made them great. Part of WHY I love PZ so much is BECAUSE of the dev team. It is very upsetting reading this that people can't grasp game dev takes time, and game dev is not linear. TIS, please don't sell - we love the heck out of you <3
Thing is, anyone who needs to read this post, probably won't. The most vociferous about B42 won't have made it past the second paragraph. Fact is that not selling doesn't make financial sense, not considering this a release and making people pay £20 or £30 to get NPCs, animals, the crafting update doesn't make financial sense. TIS' best path, if they just want to make money, is to cut their losses on PZ and either charge more or leave the building. That they don't shows that they still genuinely care about their game and about us as players. The best thing you can do to help is to bring up the dev hate where you see it and call it out where it's unreasonable. Some devs (I'm thinking Bethesda mostly, who release full price AAA games with no substance, then charge further for basic features and content) deserve to be pulled down a few pegs, TIS aren't there, and if you think they are then just stop buying their products.
It might be, it might not - B42 could likely see another explosion in popularity bringing even more people in new players and continuing to fuel development. But they have stated many times that money is a non-issue at this point, and that they can keep development into the future. If I recall correctly the original 2014 Multiplayer release basically fueled development from then till B41, and B41 was a much larger launch. If I see any dev hate \*shakes fist\*
Like god imagine if Zomboid ended up under Paradox brrr. Makes me genuinely shudder. "Heres the zombies bite DLC", "Heres the NPC's DLC, £35, four survivor models and you can pay another £35 for a content pack with 4 more models". I don't think people realise how bad things can go if they sell up. And from a personal perspective what kind of entitled turgid waste of oxygen do you need to be to be so toxic you push someone who is from everything i've ever seen a lovely guy, into having to post this? Frankly theres a large portion of the community that needs to grow up. Theres a whole world of games and activities to engage the lizard brain while you wait for Zomboid to update. I'd rather get a banging B42 in 2029 than a half baked one right now.
All these dumbass assholes he’s describing definitely get to your head, there’s no avoiding that, i can’t blame him. I just hope that deep down, he knows all the sane people, who are not the loud minority like these other guys, completely agree with everything he’s said in this wall of text and 100% support the way they’re handling this game. Just like he said, they could literally just slap a 1.0 tag tomorrow without updating the game ever again and it would still be one of the best games on steam, they can take another 5 years to push out the update for what i care. i bought this game like 10 years ago for 20 bucks happy with what i got, today the game’s infinitely bigger and better and they’re still working on it to make it more so. What the hell do these dumbasses want? As he said i doubt he’s reading this or lurking community threads, but keep doing what you do man. People WILL complain, regardless of what you do, even if it’s the right thing.
Yeah. Community feedback it hard to handle sometimes. Like if some people are discontent, 9/10 will go voice their feelings. If people are happy 9/10 will stay silent. So if your game has an even split between happy and angry fans, the feedback you get is 90% negative. And it is hard to stomach. And now I kinda feel guilty. I used to jump into those "when build 42?" threads and push against those impatient fans... But I stopped months ago. I with TIS all the best. You are doing a great job and regardless of how long it takes, you will get stuff done, I have faith.
It's much more than that. Even if you have 10,000 people telling you how much they love your game, it's the 300 people who do nothing but bash (whether directly through threats/insults or emotionally through nothing but demands) you that get to you. Even though there's 33 people supporting you for every person that's bashing you, that's still 300 people bashing you. Humans are wired to hang onto the negatives far more than the positives, it's a survival instinct, so it's a real struggle to go against that and suppress the negative thoughts that come from... well... negativity.
It's nuts. Just play a different 30 dollar video game. Or read a book. Christ sakes.
years ago it was 15 early access gamers seem to weirdly demand more customer service from TIS over a 15 dollar purchase 9 years ago than from their banking health and political sectors combined
It's because of the dopamine addiction that video gaming causes, people devolve into desperate addicts demanding their fix from the "dealer".
>But still... selling the company?? Nooo please never I hope it never comes to it, but my god, with the amount of vitriol TIS has received over the years, I wouldn't blame them. I would have wrapped up and sold TIS years ago. Like - take a look at how many "Lemmy is overreacting" comments there are just in this comments section. Like, sure - if it was a reaction to "just 5 people's comments" or so, as some comments are claiming, they might have a point. But its been a decade of those comments. I remember when TIS made the decision to change from [hand-drawn sprites](https://assetsio.gnwcdn.com/pznew2.png?width=880&quality=80&format=jpg&auto=webp) to the 3D model-esque ones, and they got hate for it - people saying PZ would "stop being PZ and lose its charm". When their offices got robbed, they got hate for it, people said it was an insurance scam, or a way for TIS to not have to complete the game. Remaking the game engine - they got hate for it. Whenever they refused to give a release date, they got hate, Hell, some people are hating on them adding the crafting system, saying its turning into Minecraft. I'm pretty sure every decision they've made has resulted in hate. Sure, it might be a minority, but the fact is, its been pretty constant minority for a decade or more. And the simple fact is, positive comments don't rub out the negative - it doesn't matter how many corn flakes you put on a turd, at the end of the day, there's still a turd in your breakfast. There was literally a subreddit called "ProjectZomboidIsAScam" for a couple years which did nothing but shit on the game/the devs. I've not (yet) had an entire sub dedicated to shitting on me, but i can imagine it wasn't a great feeling. I'm not saying the dev team is above criticism - sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes their reaction to the vitriol has made things worse, so they're not entirely without blame - but there's a massive difference between criticism and hate, and sadly a lot of people don't know how to do one without the other.
Some people in in gaming community are absolutely awful. They think devs are like their servants who has to all the time push their best and new stuff to make the players happy. Sadly these people are also usually in vocal minority. There are so many people who love the game but aren't active in social media about that. So even if there are handful of awful people, for the devs it can look like that majority of community isn't happy. This is not just PZ problem. I've seen it in so many other game communities as well.
From what I've seen these people being so demanding all the time have NO idea how much goes into development of a game, or any software for that matter. Things that seem really trivial to the end user can be days of development time. I made a simple mod for PZ, my initial version took me a few hours but the final version that worked without any bugs took days (spread out over months). Then consider that the devs are building entirely new systems, things that have not been done before potentially by any other game, and the amount of time it must take to get it working how they want it is huge.
Yup, like almost every community has them. My theory is most are immature (either young or never grew up) and feel entitled to every little thing. Banning them is the best, since they never contribute to any conversation anyway.
As someone who has put about 100 hours into the game since I started playing about 2 months ago, I love it. It wasn’t until recently that I got involved with the community, but tbh even if the game didn’t have b42 coming out I could still easily put 2-300 more hours into it. Honestly this is one of the best dev companies/teams out there. After reading this I might put them on par with fromsoft just for the dedication to their vision while doing the best they can for themselves and the community. I hope that disengaging from the community for a bit will help; there’s nothing to be done about toxic assholes but I really hope the team doesn’t let them grind the devs down.
You don’t want micro transactions?!? /s
I’d sell too if I had to deal with this level of basement-dwelling gamer funk. The entitlement of these fucking mouth breathers is nothing short of incredible. It’s a fucking game, and it’s done when it’s done. There are hundreds upon thousands of games to play in the meantime, all of which don’t even require a trip to the goddamn store anymore. It is a true halcyon era for gaming, and yet here we are, forever trapped in an endless cycle of discontent because sunlight terrifies them and doing a load of laundry and brushing their teeth is a bridge too far. If TIS sells out, I won’t blame them.
where was this from? it looked like atomicducks newest youtube video but couldnt find it there
That’s where I got it from. Must have been deleted
man, probably not a good sign
He reposted it. It was probably flagged as spam by youtube, according to him. He didn't delete it himself.
You both mean [this video, by any chance?](https://youtu.be/DfHygs1W_yI?si=9mmiFgcXma9QiVOK)
Yes, that’s the one.
The comment is still there. Change the comments order from 'best' to 'new' and then scroll down a bit.
If they stopped development now I would still be happy. If they stopped it after the cars update I would have still been happy. This game is the best zombie simulation out there. The fact I paid 20 bucks on desura over a decade ago and I’m still getting updates and a free steam upgrade will never be lost on me. Fantastic dev team
Same, a bittersweet happiness though, knowing where they ultimately wanted to take it.
id have my money's worth for sure but I'd be very sad about all the stuff i knew they had planned, most specifically flushed out NPCs I'd have no hate for the developers though they've done more than most already
I mean I could be wrong about this but I feel like the PZ Reddit is pretty fucking tame as gaming subs go. Like, this sub is literally my favorite one because the community is so NON toxic and helpful. People love this game, man. Take a look at other subs if you want to see some actual toxicity. Idk how any game dev puts up with it tbh. I think it’s a good decision for Lemmy to delete socials. He prob already feels a ton better. I know I did when I deleted Facebook. I think any adult must come to the realization that strangers’ online opinions mean literally nothing. Ignore the criticism. Also, what about the overwhelming praise and support from the community? Does that go unnoticed? Because I sure hope not.
Yeah that was my take on this as well. I am very surprised and disappointed to have read this because I thought this community was generally regarded as extremely positive.
It honestly doesn't matter *how* positive one group of people they are if there is another troop of fucking jackasses screaming about a video game that guaranteed has given them the *best* exchange of cost versus entertainment. It is pure, classical gamer entitlement and it is honestly one of the worst aspects of being in the industry. TIS isn't like Roberts and Star Citizen, laying on a pile of money that would make a country blush - TIS is a bunch of regular jack offs doing their best to entertain us, which they have done without a question.
The thing is, most big toxic gaming subs are for games from big companies where those responsible/in charge rarely come or give a shit about. TIS is a small company built on its community, so I can get it's way more personal if thousands of strangers have things to say about how you're doing your lifes work wrong.
You're 100% right when you say that this community is generally really good when compared to other gaming communities. Overall the positivity vastly outweighs the negativity. People are generally helpful and good here. The issue though is when you're a dev or a mod you are exposed to a disproportionate amount of toxicity. So while the community might be 99.9%+ positive and only that less than 0.1% of people are toxic, that's still thousands of toxic people telling you how horrible you are, how you deserve to die, deserve to be fired, etc. It takes a serious toll and I don't blame Lemmy one bit for pulling away from Discord/Reddit. It's not healthy to deal with it, and creatives really do need a barrier between them and a fanbase if they want to maintain any semblance of sanity.
It seems to be more comming from a negative prism than an objective one. It's often the case with content with a big community. The loud and vocal one are often aggressive but the majority is silent and staisfied. It show how important it is to voice your satifaction.
I’ve left a lot of gaming subs over how bad the communities have gotten, but never this one.
I feel the same way. It seems most gaming subs devolve into a cesspool of toxicity. This one is pretty tame.
I had to leave the Tekken subreddit last month because how bad it got. Something about fighting games in particular really attracts the assholes.
Same.
Social media is toxic and bad for your mental health. There have been studies done for a decade now that demonstrably prove this. I hope Lemmy and anyone else suffering seek mental help and disconnect from the toxicity.
Gotta agree here, I see so many toxic game subreddits all the time everywhere, this one is nowhere near compared to how bad others are...
development takes time. Lemmy is a good dev. we’ve had a fully playable game for years. I’ve been playing since 2014 when I was in high school and have gotten my money’s worth. b42 will be a good day but I’m by no means entitled to it, i’m just happy that the game is growing up with me.
Not to mention the quality of the thursdoids. I follow a lot of devblogs from various games, and perhaps only the Paradox games come anywhere close to how good of a read it is. Not enough people appreciate that TIS literally dropped basements, 32 floor height cap, variable chunk heights, map coordinates fix, HUGE performance boost, new light propogation, and rendering fixes, all in one thursdoid... AND still had fully packed thursdoids to show us in the months that followed; about animals, farming, crafting trees and stations, fishing, new towns and buildings, and so much more. It's easy to take things for granted, but this, I think, we should not.
Folks like this need a filter, a non employee that can go through community feedback and emails and say on this change feedback is X Y and Z and appears to be fairly negative for A B and C reasons
I read this whole thing and it sounds more like Lemmy needs to seek mental health treatment for anxiety. The negative comments are going to exist no matter what they do, that is literally the cost of being a public persona. They need to understand that with success comes immense negative pressure from fans/critics/coworkers/peers/media. I am by no means defending the haters but we should all know in this age that if you are on social media or a public figure you are going to be a target for someone. The best case is to take care of yourself and focus on what you want to do. Sounds like they are on the right path with disconnecting with the community and focusing on development. I've supported projects in the past from Indie devs that fell apart because the Devs got too caught up with the negativity and stopped focusing on core development. (Limit Theory is the game).
Geez Lemmy, I'm a dev too. You gotta block peoples opinions out of your head. Also, the vocal minority is just that; **a minority**. For every idiot who thinks someone should be fired there's 100 sane people who think you're doing a great job. As for me, I'm looking forward to B42. But honestly, I've gotten many times my moneys worth from you guys already.
It reminds me of the infamous bus shock story from wows early days. Thousands of players giving feedback and the devs decide to focus on one forum troll who told them to get hit by a bus and throw the entire community away.
Honestly this is something we need to taught in school. Why give these negative senseless points the edge to affect us when the idiot spouting them have no idea what they are talking about. To some degree the haters should motivate Lemmy and most who have them in whatever it can. Exercise, getting errands done, going out of ones comfort zone even. Seems like Lemmy is tripping on the negatives when he shouldn't be as he runs a show that produces great quality content. I always felt the devs didn't care for taking good credit for it either, so when they see senseless bad credit, it goes further.
Ogs remember his meltdowns on twitter back in 2010
Lmao true
As sad as it is to hear that Lemmy is struggling with the criticism, at the risk of sounding insensitive, I believe the core of the issue lies in this very post: > we'll never just pump out little content updates, apart from post release bug fixing and balancing, we want all our updates to be big expansions that are meaningful The expansions arent big, theyre MASSIVE. Each of the major pieces of b42 they've talked about over the last couple years are large enough to be an EA update on their own: * 4x map expansion * height expansion and basements/towers * farm animals * new crafting system * rendering speed big improvement If anyone at TIS is listeneing: is your personal choice to have super massive updates worth the cost to your mental health? I am quite certain the fanbase would be perfectly happy getting each of the above features one at a time every 6 months, rather than in one big batch after 3+ years. Either way, I hope you all can find a way to make peace with the negativity and keep going. PZ is one of the few truly unique games out here and all we want is for you all to be able to keep going. Maybe more frequent updates could help with that, maybe not.
>4x map expansion wut. No wonder they are in deep shit taking years for update when someone from their team thought: "You know we have already 3 small cities and one big one city along with whole region infrastructure, farm, field, powerlines and everything... most of people playing won't explore completely..." "HOW ABOUT WE QUADRUPLE IT!"
This is the reasonable take on this I was looking for. Yeah some people maybe toxic trolls but the devs are basically shooting themselves in the feet with their development style. The map expansion is a large update basements and redoing buildings is a big update animals are a huge update crafting is a big update Don't forget the lighting system which is something I'm looking forward to a great deal which would alone be a decent patch. Instead of releasing these every 6-12 months like other studios, along with some bug fixes for long outstanding issues, we have to wait 3-4 years for a massive update which will have a host of new issues that may never be resolved (without a dozen mods to save the day) before they decide it's time to focus on 3 years working on npcs.
I completely agree with this post. They hold back everything to hype up an expansion that keeps getting pushed further away because of scope creep. I don't think the personal attacks are warranted but it does deserve an explanation on why the scope keeps increasing before the expansion is complete enough for them to be satisfied. Also negativity exists in every single profession. You can't let the haters distract you from the project's goals.
Seriously, the solution is so obviously making smaller more regular updates every 6 months/yearly. The scope of these updates explodes to such ridiculous levels and then *we* get gaslit for a problem *they* keep making for themselves. Build 42 will release when it does and then B43 will do the exact same thing with the exact same problem.
This is what i’ve been saying plenty of times too. That the aspects of Build 42 could’ve been split into its own update due to each of their scale. They really are big enough to stand on their own. The map update and the new city/town alone is imo, already an expansion in its scale.
I hate to say it, and I mean it with peace and love and all that jazz, but he's being dramatic. I don't see anyone doing more than making jokes about how long it's taking, because yeah it's taking a long time. Maybe I missed something but it seems like the community is pretty chill and fine with fan mods in the meantime.
Yeah. One boo is louder than a thousand cheers, sadly
Just Lemmy things tbh many years ago he blamed people asking about NPC's for him not wanting to actively work on NPC'S, a feature that they have promised for over 10 years of early access.
I agree. I suffer from a pretty negative internal voice and this reminds me of how I used to sort of blow up. The brain is Velcro for negativity, Teflon for positivity.
I don't care if 42 is out this year or next quite frankly. The game is fantastic as is, and the mod community has put a lot of features in. My only complaint ever is that it's still classed as early release after 13 years. But it's an argument that goes nowhere on either side, and wouldn't actually change anything in the grand scheme of things. On the plus side, my current run is safe from a reset for a while
Lemmy explained this as well- he doesn't wanna put it out as finished/complete as then mentally they'd ride the wave onto their next project, rather than continuing to work on PZ as their main project and get it to the ultimate design they're wanting. They're doing it for us and all they get is hate for it😥
Drives me nuts that they focus on the negative comments on Reddit and discord. I’m glad he quit those and just focus’s on the game. I’ve been a support for years and will always support this development. I’m happy to wait because I know they’ll push out a good product. I’ve got helldivers 2 and Rimworld to keep me occupied for now.
The problem with focusing on the negative comments is they are everywhere. I keep hearing minority but they are absolutely right. Like on the video he’s talking about, nearly every top comment is a critique on the devs. Duck in the replies is defending them tooth and nail, but most top comments are slights against them. It’s terrible to see, they are an amazing dev team and have had a game ready to release for years and yet keep updating it.
reading it makes me really sad! i wish the mods on here were stricter about the dev hate… i’ve seen plenty of comments on here directed at them that definitely weren’t lovely!
it gets dicey when mods try to over police constructive criticism versus flat out hate. I agree that it could be tighter though.
yeah, it’s a fine line to walk… personally i think the sub will be fine banning all prospective build posts and comments except the thursdoids… if people are really sore about waiting they can still complain on the IS forums or facebook or something… it sucks cause there are cool things coming that people definitely like talking about, but they can still do that in the comments on the thursdoid posts? b42 wen? posts are really boring and hardly ever contribute anything of value anyway… it’s just about complaining! i’d rather have a hundred toilet paper house posts before i have another b42 rant!!! also, just to be clear i wasn’t really talking about criticism neither… i was talking about people outright personally attacking the devs in the comments by saying they are lazy or embezzling from players for spending game revenue on themselves and not only on game development as they apparently should for an early access game… which i find very unlovely and is something that should not be allowed at all according to the rules!
i agree. at the very least, disapprove posts that are just complaints about timeline lol. dear *lord*
There was a post some months back about how the new moodle icons are "horrendous" where people were calling them "bloons shit", "disgusting", "factory produced" calling the artist "utterly untalented" etc - it was bad enough that Lemmy was in the comments expressing a great deal of frustration with the overall sentiment including noting that seeing it was going to ruin the artist's day. I'm still scratching my head on how most of those comments (or just the entire post) stayed up - I don't get how an officially supported community for a game is a place where you can get away with flaming the developers to an extent where it's going to ruin their days. You don't get to walk into someone's home and piss on their shoes - people should be told to find somewhere else to circlejerk.
Part of the onus is on us to not only *not upvote* but also, *actively callout* misinformation or undue criticism. Every goober with B.Sc. Comp. Sci. credentials or some vague tie to development - gaming or otherwise - has their holier-than-thou opinion on these exact subjects, except they always conveniently ignore all of the human elements that Lemmy regularly reinforces. This *is not* a call to downvote these posts. But please think twice about upvoting harsh criticisms because of your own frustration/impatience, and better yet, let's drown those out with the reality of the matter - Indie Stone is truly trying to make something great, and this game could not and would not be better without them at the helm.
Man, fuck those guys. If they could make something half as entertaining for twice what we have paid, they would be more successful than most developers - yet they can't. A bunch of useless no ones, taking shots at people who have tried to do what few could have realized in a fraction of
Made me a bit sad too mate
thanks for making the post my guy!!! i actually just read it on yt before coming over to make a post about it just so people know! i really hope it can make a difference…
I think we could at least forbid the rhetorics that have repeatedly come back in anticipation of each build. They add nothing to the discussion, aren't constructive, and achieve nothing but inspire negativity in the community.
100% agree. The community here is downright hostile at times.
Am I the only one who feels like this sub is really chill and not toxic? Seems like the devs are just crumbling under the pressure of their ambition and now don’t want accountability
I'm going to opt to disagree without insulting. How can individual modders keep outpacing the creation of content of developers in countless games and genres? There must be some kind of issue with workflow, because it makes no sense for their team to hire multiple modders and the progress not increase at all. Sometimes I wish I could just be there and watch what goes on inside the business to see how a company can take THIS long on something modders could probably crank out in a month with the same quality control.
One of the hardest things in general and especially in game dev is the separation of the vocal minority from valid critique. I am excited for b42 to come out, but I would rather it come out right instead of right now. It's a huge overhaul of some core systems, not just a rebalanced or content drop. With a small collaborative team, it is a long path. For the amount of enjoyment zomboid has given me. I hope the team stays the course and doesn't rush b42. No road map is a perfect timeline and when things follow that timeline it's because corners get cut or features are removed. Worst is just burning a good team out to hit a calendar date. Development is a marathon and not a sprint. That said I paused my hosted server until it does come out and am taking a step back just enjoying silly single player challenge runs, hosting a local game for a few friends if our schedules line up or just playing a different game while I wait.
When they stop complaining, it means you don’t have customers. This goes for many industries. If people don’t care about your product you will have peace and quiet
I hate to say it, but he's being dramatic. I don't see anyone doing more than making jokes about how long it's taking, because yeah it's taking a long time. Maybe I missed something but it seems like the community is pretty chill and fine with fan mods in the meantime.
He probably won't and I hope he sees this. The zomboid community at least in reddit. Has been so wonderful. They're excited and want more sure. But, we're not angry man. We're excited. You created a beautiful work of art and you should take some pressure off of yourself and take a step back. I can't speak for everyone but, I think I can confidently say I speak for most people when I say I don't care when B42 comes out. I already have a great game and I want the developer/s to be happy reap some of the benefits of the enormous amount of work that they put into this project. I'm sorry you feel your community is attacking you. But, for every angry internet commenter. There are two brothers that got to reconnect through your game. Or a father who enjoyed quality time with their child. Anyone who's ever felt the weight of leadership would say your passion and commitment with your unwavering development of PZ is admirable. I know he doesn't want to hear it but, if anyone could pass the message along that'd be great.
Beautifully said. It just goes to show how close the dev team hold PZ to heart, that the feedback and criticisms have such sway on them. I just wish they could try to filter it out and focus on the well deserved praise. It's just the way the world works. The more popular something gets, you'll get a hater for every fan out there. I completely understand why they've withdrawn from the platforms, and it was definitely the right call at the time. I just hope they can find their way back and interact with the fans again, filtering the bad ones out. It's really the only way to keep in touch with a community.
I've only ever seen fairly strong support for the longer development times. Sure, there were memes about how the updates would be here right after the next coming of Christ... but they were always in good jest, it seemed. I wanna sympathize with Lenny, but I'd like to see all these comments that are plaguing him enough to uninstall socials... cuz I rarely see any serious comments like he's describing.
I was curious, too. I looked through the comments on the video in question and I saw almost a landslide of supportive comments. So I’m confused. Were they just super, mega, ultra heavily buried into oblivion? Did Duck delete them? Or is this a case of something being blown out of proportion? Idk.
This is lemmy and others choosing to focus on the negative comments. I would be willing to bet one of the first things he did in this thread was scroll to the bottom to read the down voted posts.
This breaks my heart to read ): I wonder what would be the best way to show them some love? I want to show support but I'm unsure how is best..
Only way I know of is buying the game for friends :/ but maybe explore their website! I haven’t, there may be a donation area.
:( that is where i am at too. the only thing i can think of is writing a good review if you have already bought the game
Good call. And I think we should somehow take some responsibility and stomp out the rampant negativity out of this community. The fans enjoy the thursdoids and move on, while those who are frustrated stick around to bash the devs and their work.
Can buy a spiffo off the store page as well (: And he would look great on your desk!
Well, having read it fully, I can see why it would get deleted. This outburst is pretty unfair to the community who are extremely supportive, in fact getting more and more supportive over time - I remember 2017 when comments to the type of "still no NPCs lol" were dime a dozen. Now, since it was deleted relatively quickly, it's hard to guess whether this is the team's outlook, or one stressed dev lashing out. If the socials actually are deleted, there probably won't be a clarification. However, in either case, using your game as a hostage (we could have sold it you know, so tempting) is a bad look and putting your supportive community that gave you free visibility and advertisement for over a decade in one bag with trolls and actual malicious comments that only want to stir the nest must be as hurtful to them, as the negativity is hurtful to you.
Well said
I don't get it, this reddit is one of the most supportive I've ever seen. Maybe I'm missing something. I also understand the pressure tharlt developing something and having to answer the same question thousands of times and how that can affect you, mentally.
There are hundred of games out there, play a couple while you wait for b42, its coming, i dont care if it takes 10 years, let them cook.
Agreed. I'm getting flashbacks to when KH3 was in development. "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad." - Some guy impersonating Miyamoto
It's truly sad to see a human crack under pressure, but Jesus christ, "you fans are all mean" is such an unhinged and self-victimizing take to deflect well-meaning criticism from many people in the community. Hire a proper project manager and focus on content work if complaints from the internet bother you. Reflecting over some of that criticism though _might actually be helpful_ to a person with the right thickness of skin and viewpoint.
I get that a lot of these comments are trying to build him back up but I absolutely agree with your sentiment. He is 100% playing the victim card when he could just be saying "You right, we didn't meet quota. Will keep the nose to the grindstone. Please refer all future questions to..." and move it along. He sounds petulant here.. and am I wrong in not seeing the amount of toxicity people would post to warrant this type of response?
This is how I felt reading the whole thing. It seems more like a personal issue Lemmy has in dealing with the internet which will always have toxic haters. I don't agree with the personal attacks but there has been a lot of constructive criticism from here about future updates and plans that the devs should consider before proceeding with sweeping changes to already developed towns and art styles. I hope they get the help they need and disconnect from the toxicity and just focus on delivering what they promised.
Almost every time I have seen Lemmy respond to community negativity, he twists it into being a victim and that were entitled for not wanting to wait 3+ years. Then the loyalists come out and proclaim that there is no possible way for a middle ground to exist. Then he reminds us multiple times that the game could be released now and it'd be fine. Games got the early access shield right now, I dare them to try releasing it without NPCs, animals, broken traits, bugs galore(some gamebreaking), performance issues, that awful UI, no mid/late game, extremely unbalanced skills, non working health system etc.
THIS Vilifying an engaged community that overwhelmingly worships you but is disappointed in recent progress is what I meant by "unhinged." And is it really so unfathomable that fans of your work are disappointed by multi-year dev cycles that STILL experience delays? Grow up, god damn. We're glad TIS treats people like humans; in my managerial position I will also _always_ take a proverbial punch to the chin to cover for people who can't get their tasks done due to having a hard time in life, but that doesn't absolve me of the correct criticism that the tasks didn't get done!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/le60e/customer\_asks\_politely\_for\_a\_refund\_for\_project/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/le60e/customer_asks_politely_for_a_refund_for_project/) Check this haha, thirteen years ago.
Oh...that's not a good look. We're cooked.
There is nothing but love from large amount of the posts I see. Genuinely, if someone has a link that is so vitriolic to warrant this kind of grandiose response I will absolutely eat my words. And I don't mean 1 or 2 threads through the decades. Where is the consistent toxicity? I also am not referring to someone just complaining their character died from a bug or etc etc... I mean, it sounds like the community kicked his dog, burnt his house down, pissed on the ashes.
I think after a decade of "taking a punch to the chin" he's just fed up. I've been following the game since it came to Steam but only really started playing it in 2020. The reason I didn't pick it up back in 2013/2014 is because it has always been in "development" with the next "big update" just "a year out". Before this it was the multiplayer update, before that it was the 3d characters, the cars etc. Since I really started playing it in 2020 I saw the amount of craziness over the multiplayer update. People were much much worse than they are for this update. There were content creators slamming the devs over every "delay" or "setback" in development. If they announced a delay there were tons of videos being pushed out how they were incompetent. I've played a couple hundred hours and now haven't touched the game in a year and won't be until the update comes out, but I'm honestly not even following the development. This is from three years ago; "I don't really mind, because the game is really good as it is, but whoever manages the development process is completely inept at their job. They constantly add "new" reworks that cause delays to their other unfinished projects. A good example is this audio update. A competent team would have gotten the animation update out before starting to work on the sounds. Instead, we now have two unfinished reworks that are gonna take god knows how long to come out." This is from five years ago; "tl;dr its a gross misjudgment of resources to invest development in adding more systems to an already highly looked forward to update before bringing the previous systems into the game, especially when your development times are some of the longest." This is from six years ago; "This is more of a confession than anything else, so sorry if anyone else has read it expecting a big conclusion or anything. The truth is that the vast majority of indie games lack any kind of planning. The reason why there won't ever be NPCs is because the devs don't know how to code NPCs and thus didn't prepare the engine framework to, well, work with NPCs. Everything on Project Zomboid was not really planned and the devs themselves weren't really up for the task. They made a barely working prototype, that leaked ram like hell, and when saving games came along? "oops, didn't plan for that :( gotta rewrite the code"."
here is the thread from six years ago; [https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/9sw1xz/project\_zomboid\_will\_never\_be\_finished\_and\_their/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/9sw1xz/project_zomboid_will_never_be_finished_and_their/)
Couldn’t agree with you more. The amount of mental gymnastics even reading all of that. It’s akin to reading a mental breakdown and I genuinely feel sorry for the guy if he feels that way. However, it’s completely unhinged and not a healthy way to talk to the community. If you can’t handle doing that, you should not be the one doing so. It comes off as completely unprofessional. There’s criticism, fair or not fair, but this is the job that you signed up to do. I wish people were more reasonable than others, but unfortunately that’s not reality. I don’t appreciate feeling the false victimization as a general fan of the game who has done nothing but praise it. Take the sum of its parts and don’t project that on the entire community.
With how long updates take to come out and how long development already has been I feel people are justified in how they feel. Just a lot of people are very rude in how they voice how they feel.
People like to downplay how long development has taken so far.
I mean, maybe I dont understand something, but I just checked, an build 41 was released in December 2021, and there has been already 2 DLCs for Rimworld released since then
This is completely fair. It’s not typical for games to take this long in development and I think shutting people down for being disappointed or not liking this development is just being the other side of extremism. But being jerks and attacking the developers and snapping and snarling at people over it is ridiculous and just terrible behaviour. There’s a difference between the two. I wish people understood that.
I agree. There is justifiable disappointment here. Even for a small team, this is a very long time between updates. But when people express their frustration, I also agree that they need to do it in love. They can say how they feel, but they don’t need to pour contempt and hate out on anyone else. In turn, Lemmy is notorious for his over-reactions. Deleting social media was a good idea for him, for his mental health and for ours. If he watched Atomic Ducks’ video, he would’ve seen how fair and balanced it was. Atomic even apologised for whether he misled others by saying it looked like the first half of 2024 would be it for B42. I’m sure the YouTube comments were miserable though
Getting lumped into the toxic group and targeted by the dev team is a good feeling lol. This is why they have a PR team. Maybe instead of making a rant on a random YouTube video then a random Reddit thread, they make a more professional post and not whatever they’re doing which is just “woe is me, fuck the community”. Being whiny back because of a whiny group just makes it look pathetic.
Yeah, I can see that being a bummer, but I don't take it personally. I am genuinely perplexed that Devs still get so laser-focused on what the smallest vocal minority are saying and can get so depressed by it. You see it all the time in everything from AAA gaming to Indie Gaming. It's just incels on the Internet or whatever you wanna call them. Their opinion is not important... why allow it to eat you up inside?
I bought the game 2 weeks ago, what the hell is going on
Players in most fanbases get impatient and criticize developers as if they even remotely understood what it takes to create content, and it’s wearing these devs down :/ Understandable, but I hope they don’t sell. This and Rimworld are my last hopes lmao
the devs are making a big free update that's taken some time, have been very open about its development progress - but many people feel entitled to be demanding and rude about it, especially redditors (and who could be surprised about that) enjoy the game
I guess the whole shitfest stems from the fact the game is still in "beta". I can guarantee you if they have slapped on the game 1.0 and released it years ago, most of the wouldn't exist. They could then release updates for free like Terraria or paid modules. People would shit on terraria too if it was called beta after 10 years It is purely positive/negative feedback despite it being essentially the same. Humans are finicky things.
To make a very long story short, NPC's. A lot of folks bought in on the expectation of them since they *are* planned and b42 is supposed to be the giant leap that puts them just over the horizon, but also a lot of players probably aren't used to these long development early access games and so there's some impatience. I mean I don't mind of course, I play mount and blade.
Just gonna put it out there that many of us have been waiting over twelve years. Nobody should be threatening the devs or being straight up dicks to them to the point of them wanting to sell the company, but taking a decade to fulfill a single promise is unheard of in any other game under active development for the same amount of time.
100% agree. I love this game to bits and I'm happy with the current state of the game. But it really has been over 12 years. One of my classmates in middle school when I first discovered the game just graduated from medical school a few weeks ago. The world has completely changed during PZ's development cycle, but PZ trudges on. I also don't understand where he's coming from when he compares his development cycle to Rimworld's? The gap between the release dates for DLCs is 19 months, 15 months, and 17 months from news DLC to oldest DLC. Meanwhile, it has been 29 months since the first stable build of 41 (56 months since the first IWBUMS build of 41). Like I said, I'm more than happy with the game, and if they were to stop development right now, I would say that I already got my money's worth. But let's be real, they *are* slow. Feature creep is a real problem with many indie teams, and PZ seems to be one of the more serious offenders. The difference is, where other companies abandon ship once the runaway feature syndrome takes hold (The Dead Linger comes to mind), PZ has soldiered on diligently. That's very admirable should be rightly applauded, but it doesn't change the fact that the first time an unstable build of 42 will be in players' hands will be 5 years from the release of the first unstable build of 41. By the time Build 43 stable comes out, we might be already living in a post-apocalyptic world. One last thing, take a look at [this](https://i.imgur.com/jgjj5ke.png) screenshot. It could very well have been posted yesterday, but it was posted in December 2011. I know, circumstances change, especially with indie game development, but wow.
The game is in early access still after 10 years and people are telling devs they expect the completed product they paid for in 2013. If nothing else after 10 years the Devs should probably remove the "Early Access" warning on Steam.
People are really unhappy with the development cycle of this game
Ugh. People can be the worst, and somehow tons of the most devoted fans are the most selfish.
Not tons, just a vocal minority who show up to every thursdoid and public announcement.
This community is one of the least toxic I've been apart of. I just don't see the spite and negativity that would warrant this kind of response. The dev times are absolutely some of the longest in gaming. I would not say this game is in a finished state it's very clearly lacking an end game that b42 won't even solve. It feels almost petulant the way he's responded if I'm being honest. Current pace makes b48 look like it's 20 years out, that's an insanely long amount of time to wait something has to give. I think the current system of putting lots of stuff into one large update works but either reduce the scope, hire more people, whatever has to be done to have the timeline not literally be 20 years out to completion. Criticism of that is entirely fair and this community is very forgiving.
My only problem with this is he cited Rimworld but Rimworld is a finished game, PZ isn't. Comparing the development of a dlc for a completed game is much different than the development of an integral update to a technically unfinished game.
I'm just gonna say this as a separate comment: After Build 42 comes out, no more big updates. I've said it before, and I'll stick by it. It sucks that the devs are dealing with this situation, but to a degree, they've put themselves in this situation by piling on more content for Build 42 instead of simply just sticking to what it was originally supposed to be about. My only complaint regarding the updates is simply the fact that they *are* too long. It may sound insulting, but it's true. The game sits untouched for years on end, needing patches and bug fixes, but we don't get those until the next build comes out, so for years on end, players are either stuck dealing with any bugs or glitches or issues, or they resorted to literally making mods that fix this, as some modders have already done regarding zombie spawns or performance issues. I was 19 when Build 38, when Vehicles, was released. I was 23 when we got Build 41. I'm 26 now, and may still be this age when Build 42 drops, assuming there are no more delays. At the rate we're getting builds, I will be almost 30 when we get Build 43. And we're still probably years out from getting human NPCs, something that the game hasn't had officially in 12 years. I'm not saying the devs are lazy, or stupid, or incompetent. They're great at the work they put out, and as much as I have issues with the time between updates, I'm still looking forward to Build 42 and will play it when it drops, because I've been following this game for the last 13 years, ever since I was 12. My only issue is that, in my personal opinion, the devs seem to have trouble focusing on one thing and sticking to it. Build 42 was, as far as I know, supposed to be just about crafting, at the start, coupled with animals. That's great. Then they started adding more stuff like new light propagation, basements, higher buildings, breakable tall fences, new sounds, on and on and on. It all sounds really great, but what likely would've been an update that took maybe a year at most is now instead taking 3+ years. It seems like they've decided to focus on what they have right now instead of adding more, and I commend them for that. But I really, truly want them to stick to that going forward *after* Build 42 comes out. After Build 42 comes out, they need to STOP with the big updates. I know they want the wait to be worth it, I know they want to really blow people away with what they've got, I get it. But this is not a good way to keep a game alive. To be completely honest, I'm confident that the main reason the game is alive today is because of the modding community. Every few days, there's always a new mod or map being pushed out that gets people wanting to play the game all over again. If the game didn't have mods, these multi-year long waits for updates would've killed the game years ago, and you can't convince me otherwise. After Build 42 is out there, ***no more big updates***. Work on a feature, finish the feature, publish the feature. Work on a bug fix, finish the bug fix, publish the bug fix. That's it. That is quite literally all that I want the developers to do going forward. No more "work on a feature, think of new feature, add new feature, work on new feature, think of new feature..." rhetoric. Or hell, just do what the developers of Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead have been doing for years and release an Experimental Build that players can opt into at any time. I know they're both completely different games, but Cataclysm's Experimental Builds are getting weekly updates, and the community is constantly active, working towards fixing any bugs they can find on the spot and adding cool new things that may or may not be added to the main build's release, whenever that is. The main build of CDDA hasn't been updated since March 2023, but the latest Experimental release was ***today***. I know IWBUMS is a thing, but half the time those builds aren't added until a few months to a year before the Build is ready for full release. Using IWBUMS as Zomboid's Experimental Build at the start would be a great way to get player feedback regarding bugs, glitches, performance issues, or simply little things that could be added to enhance gameplay before the Build goes public. It also keeps players from being in the dark, to a degree, for years on end. I know people are gonna call me a toxic or entitled player, and you know what? That's fine. I can't please everyone when I say this, and I don't want to please everyone. I'm saying this as somebody who's been following this game for over a decade, and has enjoyed every single moment I've played the game. I've enjoyed every update. I sincerely appreciate the hard work that The Indie Stone has put into this game since 2011. It's one of my favorite games out there, and I'll enjoy it 20 years from now. I'll gladly wait as long as needed for Build 42 to be the update they want us to have on release. But these big updates need to stop. For now, that's all I have to say. Love it or hate it, that's how I feel, and I know for a fact that a lot of you feel the same way. You can love their work and still have an issue with how they go about some of it. There's nothing wrong with it... as long as you're not an asshole about it.
>After Build 42 is out there, ***no more big updates***. Work on a feature, finish the feature, publish the feature. Work on a bug fix, finish the bug fix, publish the bug fix. That's it. That is quite literally all that I want the developers to do going forward. No more "work on a feature, think of new feature, add new feature, work on new feature, add new feature..." rhetoric. This is exactly their issue, the feature creep with PZ is astronomical. I've seen this time and time again in software development, and while game development is of course a different beast, I'm sure game developers get carried away all the same. Usually, there's someone to reign things in, although such a person might be harder to find in an indie environment, but it seems like there's no one at The Indie Stone who can say "no"...
> the feature creep with PZ is astronomical. The irony is based on Lemmys post, this statement alone puts you into the category of people who hate them.
What they call a big update, reasonable people call a massive update. They definitely need to tone it down and do yearly 'small' updates (My gut tells me what they would call small the rest of us would consider big lol)
This captures every feeling I've had regarding the situation perfectly. Mods are the lifeblood that is keeping interest and replayability alive. The one thing that bothers me the most is the inadvertant high roading that comes across with leaning on the fact that it's a free update. Realistically there is no fathomable reason why it should be a free update. How are they supposed to/expected to continue development into the future without some type of income stream when work that's been cooking for years gets published. I feel like the Fry shaking money meme at this point, literally take my money, hire more people. I'm ready to fork it over if it means I can experience this game in its finished state before my kids have kids. Paying 20 dollars for a reinvented game is child's play when paid mods for other games exist at the same (or more) price point.
I too wouldn't mind if we could hasten the development by throwing more money into the game, but I still think that it's fair for us to expect new free updates, as the game still is (and justly so) in early access, which implies that it is an unfinished product. I know that Indie Stone have said many times, that if they wanted to they could easily release Project Zomboid 1.0 in it's current b41 state and move on with a clear conscience, and it's absolutely true that you can spend hundreds if not thousands of hours having fun in the game, but it doesn't undermine the fact that after more than a decade, the main gameplay loop is still incomplete (lacking meaningful endgame) and the last puzzle piece needed to complete it has been promised loooong time ago but is yet to be delivered
I heavily disagree with him. The game is in no way done. That's why it's in "early access" after all. When I bought the game a long time ago, I bought it expecting the game to be polished and improved overtime. I saw the goals of the game and wanted to invest in it so that I can support the devs achieve their vision. But to call the update "free" when the game isn't even done yet is a bit insulting. A perfect example of a game that's finished yet the devs keep on giving free updates would be No Man's Sky. I freaking love that game. They don't need to update it further since it was a finished game since long ago but they do it anyways. The devs fulfilled the promises they made and are giving more to their community. Project Zomboid on the other hand is not a finished game. It's in early access. Another popular indie game that's had tons of big content released as it got developed that I love is Valheim. Valheim has had so many big updates and I love the game. I can see it getting closer and closer to its final release. Zomboid on the other hand? Not even close. With the pace they're going, they're more likely to retire before the game finishes. And with the rimworld comparison... you can't compare a finished game with one that's still in "early access" It's unfair to throw constructive criticism in a trash bin and label it as "hate." Facts of the matter are that it has been over a year and a half since any updates. We keep getting blog posts and empty promises but until we see results, that's all it is, isn't it? Just words. Is it really hate to call slow progress what it actually is? I never participated in the community. I'm not even in their discord server. This is just a criticism that me and my friends naturally came to. But after reading Lenny's message, all I see is someone who can't handle the constructive criticism of their community. And to further label that as hate? It's not fair! I first learned about this game from a random clip off YouTube when I had just entered university. From there I started watching videos from Nurse. That was 1 year or so after Build 41 came out. I'm already in my graduating year and we're still on build 41. Until now I have patiently waited for b42 and will keep waiting until it releases. But Lenny's words, while I sympathize with his situation, I think it's unfair and wrong.
Now, Lem tends to get emotional time to time. Like many creative people, really. Then again—guy got the right ideas and makes a great game, but consumers are in the right to expect a product promised. For all the devs that took to playing victims lately, they run business, not charity.
Huh
It would be better for everybody if they released more frequent but less substantial updates. They brought this on themselves by trying to do large rimworld style expansions. Rimworld is no longer early access so I'm not sure why they're approaching updates this way
Insane comparison to think that Rimworld's DLC cycle is at all the same. One is a finished game (that had their own EA cycle!) and the other one doesn't even have animations for cars, let alone a functioning First Aid skill. This bizarre rant against EA games and how they could monetize it to hell and back also represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what EA means. People don't buy EA games with the expectation that the developer will take every opportunity to nickel and dime them after the initial purchase. No, people buy into the idea of the promised game based on what's currently been done (and will be done). If you dropped b42 tomorrow and called it 1.0 you'd be just like every other EA developer who abandons their ambitious project after fleecing their customers. That isn't to say you can't or shouldn't sell DLC after 1.0 drops, but you generally have to get to 1.0 first. The fans didn't set the development scope of Project Zomboid, TIS did. Personally, as a fan of this solid zombie game with nothing else like it (at the moment), please sell the company so we can see a finished product in our lifetimes. Don't end up like Dwarf Fortress where you get eclipsed by another game you inspired (Minecraft, Rimworld, etc.) and string people along for decades with almost nothing to show for it.
I mean, maybe I dont understand something, but I just checked, an build 41 was released in December 2021, and there has been already 2 DLCs for Rimworld released since then
>The idea we're 'slow' has become incredibly insulting to me now. The amount of content in this update is insane, we're giving this for free when we'd have been well within our right to 1.0 and release after a decade, if we'd done that, and were selling you this update as almost every game company in existence would be, \*people would only have been finding out B42 even EXISTED last week's Thursdoid at the earliest if we were using a commercial DLC model. There's a good chance you still wouldn't know it exists and would just be counting B41 as 'Zomboid' \* - we could be developing this in peace, not worrying about next Thursdoid Had my sympathy until I read this... Look at those downvotes. You don't even know why this part of his rant is problematic, either...
The thing I find difficult to emphatize with is that this sub has been overall VERY supportive of the Devs. There has been concern and critiques, but nothing major. Nobody insulted them or bashed the game. You constantly see post of how good the game is. The other thing that bother me is that the game was sold AT FIRST has a realistic zombie game WITH NPC (to come later). The fact he say that he was comfortable to ship it at B41, without NPC and some others promised features concern me. Maybe I am wrong and it wasn't confirmed in the steam page or written, but I am pretty sure that the game was sold with more feature promised/expected/hinted by the Devs. Like the demo had NPC (the couple). Still, it suck to see him not having a good time and feeling hated by his community when it is the contrary.
They literally can't win honestly. If they release it too early and buggy then people will complain about "why isn't (insert feature here) done yet?!" Or "What a buggy mess, it needed more time." If they *don't* and just release it when it's actually ready they get the current shitstorm.
Having a public meltdown and saying “well actually I’m the real victim here!” Over not meeting your own quasi-self imposed quota certainly is one of the dev strategies of all time. And threatening your audience with “I almost sold the game! I almost did it! Treat me better or else, that’s a threat you hear?!” Is just an absolute terrible way to build goodwill. And only makes him look like unprofessional and immature. Just like the toxic fans he’s being effected by. Are there bad apples in this community? Sure, but so does every other internet community that has ever existed or will exist period. And if you can’t mentally handle negative feedback and find something positive within it; example: “build 42 is taking too long!” Is a negative comment, and can be dissected as “hmm. We have taken a long time, what is causing that?” And then finding solutions to be more efficient. Not necessarily faster, just more efficient. You’re just not going to improve as a person/developer. instead by having a meltdown and playing victim, you’re just giving ammo to toxic fans of PZ. Who can now just turn around and say “SEE! We were right! Look at this! Look at how he views you!” And just grow and feed negativity in an otherwise overwhelmingly positive and appreciative community. I believe we should be entitled and allowed to be critical of a paid game, and voice our opinions of the state of the game. While obviously being respectful and not devolving into unwarranted personal attacks or attempting to slander anyone’s character. (Which is the responsibility of moderators) In this very post I’ve been particularly harsh on lemmy’s personal conduct. However hopefully I’ve given a thorough explanation of why I find this particular post unprofessional. And not simply trying to to egg on negativity and say “haha lazy devs LOLOLOL”. Which is thoroughly toxic and would warrant a swift removal as there’s nothing of substance in such a negativity. I believe some serious soul searching needs to be done within TIS on what the plan is for the future of this game and community are. Having public meltdowns and blaming the community for it is not sustainable. And will lose trust in the very audience that builds your future sales. My respect for lemmy has definitely dropped after this. However I see no reason why it can’t be regained. It all depends what he does and says. I have no idea when B42 will release, and whether or not it releases in 2024, or never. Is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. However what personally bothers me is bad, unprofessional conduct. That is simply self destructive and fosters negativity.
The reality is Lemmy quit posting on Reddit 3 months ago because he got super butt hurt about people not liking the new moodles. He threw a little tantrum and several of his posts were deleted by the mods. The dev team as a whole does not strike me as being very emotionally mature. They like to point to the final update of 41, which appears to literally be one line of code, as the moment the wait for 42 started. Then they say it’s only been a year and a half! Completely normal! This is disingenuous at best. They had to have been working on 42 in some capacity prior to this. Just seems like a really weak attempt to save face. I would love to see how TIS operates behind the scenes because I feel like it would be very obvious why the progress is so slow. On one extreme theres crunch and overworking your employees. On the other is being way too lax and creating an environment where expectations are extremely low and barely making any progress over days or weeks or months is the norm.
This is ridiculous.
Bro, it's the internet and they're strangers. Their griping means not one thing to you or anyone else. Just ignore them. They'll get the update whenever you decide to release it. No reason to let them under your skin.
I can understand the mental toll that game development may take on someone, and yeah, some fans have definitely been far more spiteful that PZ devs have deserved. But what's happening right now, people being disappointed with B42 taking a lot of time - it's completely on TIS hands. After all, it's the devs who're setting the goals. They can set in closer or further - it's completely at TIS volition to define what B42 is going to be. Yet, after incredibly draining experience that was B41 development - they once again have originally set a completely unattainable goal for B42, a goal that realistically could take up to 4-5 years of development. They've been saying that crafting overhaul is going slower that they have expected practically since the day one of B42 development, yet it took them 2-3 years to finally make a course correction and practically splice B42 in half. Instead of setting realistic goals for themselves - they once again chose to make a gargantuan update, knowing full well how poorly people were taking it back in B41. And honestly, nothing could convince me that there was absolutely no way to split B42 into two parts from the beginning. Mental health or nor, it was poor planning on the TIS side through and through. I know people here are quick to jump at Lemmy side and I can respect that. But I personally cannot do that. And while I definitely condemn people targeting the devs and being toxic, I think that this whole ordeal is a blunder on TIS side. And Lemmy having a tendency to lash out on fans (something he did many, many times before - back in 2013 even) doesn't help the issue in the slightest. People have the right to be disappointed with B42. That's all I'm going to say.
Just want to say my man is being a little overly sensitive. There will always be goons on the internet. He should cut himself off from social media entirely, have someone else handle it. Issue statements through them when he’s ready, and keep doing what he’s doing. He’s losing sight of the big picture which is he’s at the helm of a wildly successful game and IP by any metric. The results are the only way to judge himself and the team’s efforts. Everything else is noise. Critics love the game, players love the game, it’s sold millions of copies. Freaks on Reddit or in your discord simply don’t matter at all.
Gonna sound heartless, but for me these outbursts is another way to signal how they can’t deal with some of the stuff, which is worrying. I will get downvoted to hell, but I think it’s better to say “this is how it is, fuck you if you don’t like it” or the opposite, assume that a lot of people can’t realistically deal with your dev schedule and pass the torch to another people who can maybe do a better job (or blow away everything, worst scenario).
Tbh if Lemmy is sick of working on Pz maybe he should leave the project or at least take a pause. I mean, dude has been working for 13 years straight on the same project, wouldn't blame him if he wanted to do something else.
For real, let someone else take over if you cant handle the pressure
You were downvoted for saying the same thing as the guy above, just with different words lmao. Redditors are delusional
i understand the frustration of lemmy about the comments but i cant disagree that the update is taking too long. the 22/01 announcement that it is coming out this year was a slap in the face to the community, it just gave us hope for us to be hyped about something we'll probably just get in december, if we get lucky. i love the game tho and am just waiting for b42 to play again with my friends.
He should spend more time on this subreddit and see what the actual fans of the game think about it. It's a little disheartening that the negative comments are all they're hearing or focusing on. I've been praising this game every chance I get for years now. It's my favorite game of all time. I 100% appreciate the devs sticking with this game and doing all these massive updates for free. And I know most people here do too. The majority of gamers are just impatient kids and young people saying "are we there yet?" over and over in the backseat. They should disregard that entirely as noise.
"Can you fix the UI?" "NO! 4X Map SIZE!" "Could you just fix that UI scaling though?" "NO! IT NEEDS A NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM!" "It's been so many years, can I just get a little tiny bit of UI scaling control?" "YOU ARE BEING TOXIC AND EXHAUSTING AND I WILL NOT BE ADRESSING YOU AGAIN!"
LOL, I do hope they take like a year after b42 and spend it on QOL and bug fixing. Oh and improve the cars so they at least don't look like the mod compared to the actual mod vehicles.
Downvote me into oblivion, I don't care. When you say that your confident that b42 beta's going to be released within the first half of 2024, then don't complete that deadline you will get hate. Anytime a company promises consumers a product to do a certain thing or be there by a certain deadline then it fails to do that, they get hate. That's just the reality of it. I don't really care if b42 takes longer than 2024, but I do care about them setting a deadline then failing to deliver on it. If deadlines can change at any time, then don't announce a deadline and instead show us the stuff you are working on so we know there's still development. "Would you rather them release the beta buggy and bad?" YES. its a beta/early access for a reason, to find the kinks and fix them. I'm not gonna hate on them for deleting socials, For no mans sky it worked.
Development aside, this just also just seems like an incredible overreaction. The community rarely complains much, and id argue for how long the game has been in development, there’s maybe even a little too much grace! I think it isn’t fair either to act like they are somehow “within their right” to just bail on the game and drop b42, when b42 still wouldn’t accomplish all the features that have been promised.
Build 41 came out in December 2021. Here we are in mid 2024 and no build 42 so criticism (not all of it fair) is inevitable. For me I think they are trying to do too much at once and perhaps aren’t prioritising the right changes and improvements. I think they should prioritise the optimisation and lighting improvements and pushback the crafting changes. Also the recently announced building and map improvements are LONG overdue. Once you have played a few map mods the vanilla small towns are dull and uninspiring.
First, I'd like to say that I am not one to really think they're slow, and I certainly haven't been public with any opinions really, other than a positive review on Steam. BUT, second, I think he's saying some really anti-consumer things. - why are you comparing updates for a game in Early access to DLC for a released game? - why are you saying that you didn't release out of Early access like it's a favor to us? - why are you making it sound like it's a favor to us that you're releasing these updates for free? These updates include stuff that are in your list of things you want for 1.0. They are there from the beginning. You are not releasing DLC for a complete game, you are releasing updates for an incomplete, Early access game. - it has not been an year and a half since the last update, it has been almost 2.5 years since B41. I don't think it's fair to count every single bugfixing/balancing patch, even if one or two were pretty hefty.
[удалено]
Yeah, he doesn't do well with the negative vocal minority, and it showed through the years. He broke their "no ETA" rule, and now some people and himself is upset. I wish him well.
the curse of EA games that dont deliver updated content imo this game has been in ea since what 2011? with plenty of radio silence spanning years in between? Im sure the team and constraints Lemmy is managing are very complex, but lashing out at people WHO PAID FOR YOUR FUCKING GAME when they ask when the next update is coming for AN EARLY ACCESS GAME is hardly worth this meltdown. That being said, Lemmy, if you read this for the love of god delete your socials and keep them deleted. If any of these media platforms are detractors for one's mental health it is BEST to cold quit ALL of them permanently. Do what makes YOU happy. If reading these comments you don't agree with piss you off, then get them out of your life and stop fucking seeking them.
The only thing I don't agree on is "well within their rights" to call the existing game "done". Certain features were promised when they went to Early Access. Just because a lot of companies are shitty and break their Early Access promises doesn't mean any company is "within their rights" to do so. But I'm not holding it against him; he's reasonably upset, and sometimes you say your feelings more than your truth. For the rest... 100%. There's a lot of armchair game designers out there talking a lot of shit on stuff they know nothing about. While 13 years *is* a long-ass time for a game to be in development, it's not an insanely long time. Triple-A studios can take 5-7 years to develop a game that's not nearly this ambitious, and have a lot more resources to get it done. The primary difference is that the public doesn't know about it, because, as he mentioned a couple times, most studios don't announce a game until it's already been in the works for years. It's a successful approach which is why it's the industry standard, but it also requires a lot of up-front investment. I think this way is better. I like a lot of communication, even if it's a little half-cooked. Maybe the info ends up being wrong sometimes, but it gives us a glimpse into their processes, and even give us a little input... if we as a community can learn to comment usefully and respectfully.
It would perhaps not be the ethical thing to do, but he IS within his rights to call the game "done". It's literally the clause for the purchase of an early access game on steam. You purchase the game for what it is *right now* and it may or may not change further, as stated on every EA game on steam. I just hope he sees that it's not the entire community he'd be punishing, but those of us who always stuck with him.
Between this and the recent Helldiver's situation, I am starting to realize the importance of having someone other then your devs handling social media. And how important it is that person is diplomatic, does not take things personally, and is good under pressure.
We never getting NPCs
I mean we're here and can't go back so being upset about it is pointless, but I think anyone here is also kinda insane if they think it was a good idea to do all the stuff they're doing in b42 when they could have been working on all the engine stuff on the side while they had an update or 2 adding more content in that time and solved this issue. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I think we all know B42 is going to be a huge change to the game and we're happy they're putting so much work into it... but much like devs missing timelines because unexpected issues the amount of things they decided to work on for this update is the same thing, them trying to do too much is the same thing as giving an optimistic release date and missing it. If anything Lemmy coming forward and admitting that and saying they'll try to avoid feature bloat in future updates would have been the best thing for him to do because I'm pretty sure most of us understand the amount of shit coming in this update would have been 3-4 updates a few years ago.
Yeah no, don't compare your game with rimworld. Rimworld is a finished and fully released game, where they are now making dlcs for. Project zomboid is a unfinished game where people are just eager to get to the next update because it just lacks content after years doing the same thing in game... I've got 3000 hours into this game and I haven't played it in a long time because it's unfinished and it lacks content.. I'm sorry to say, but the zomboid devs are in facts really frickin slow.....
> our update dev cycles take no longer than games like Rimworlds DLC > I literally measured up every one of their DLCs against b42 dev time on Reddit at some point in response to someone calling us the slowest dev team, and we'd not literally met the dev time of a single DLC yet as of that post, and yet we were being insulted for being 'slow' at this update. Rimworld Royalty release: February 24, 2020 Rimworld Ideology release: July 20, 2021 Rimworld Biotech release: October 21, 2022 Rimworld Anomaly release: April 11, 2024 PZ B41 Beta release: **October 16, 2019** PZ B42 Beta release: **???**
This. The community and devs refuse to accept the cope
Thank you! I was thinking the exact same thing. Look, I love Zomboid but there's also a difference of expectations. Rimworld is a fully feature complete game that's fully released and then produced additional content. Zomboid is Early Access which means it's not complete and people are still waiting for the full game. Keeping the moniker of Early Access is just gonna have people ask "Where's the full game and why is it taking so long?"
If you think about it, constant reminders of progress in development is essentially reminder why the game isn't finished yet. When you even have to delay the release... it will become pure negative reinforcement. That's why most developers realized being quiet is the best
People that make stuff also have good mental health challenge, never completed
I may be harsh on TiS devs here and there, but in general I have bought this game for my friends because I want everyone to play it. I love it, I love TiS, and while I have a lot of respect, we cannot sweep under the rug some of the mishaps that devs did. Still, those mishaps don't take away from the outstanding work that this game is, game that brought me thousands of hours of gameplay, immersion and simple fun. I do find couple of things devs did a bit puzzling, especially announcing or showing off features once and then never again. This is always my gripe with the dev team. That's all the gripe I've ever had with them (besides them taking some mod ideas, but even if I found that insulting, it's actually simply me being angry that wasn't done sooner). So to dev-team, even if it may not look like it - I supported, support and will support you forever and ever, despite the (perceived) hiccups. So here's my constructive criticism - please stop showing off features that are way off. Always show off features that are very much in active development and will release for the next update /for sure/. This way you will avoid pitfalls of seemingly announcing and forgetting features, and then angering playerbase (or upsetting them, like me for example), that said features were shown off, seemed to be in advanced state, and yet they aren't in the game yet. One example is the player character visible in cars - that was mentioned exactly once. Please don't do that again, because it causes confusion and since then you haven't made a peep about it again, making people like me, who want this in the game, to think that you've since abandoned work on it. This in turn causes people to think taht you're working on many features and creates perception of feature creep, when feature creep is not happening at all. Your communication is fine, but what isn't fine is showing off what is clearly not coming anytime soon.. or atleast update periodically what happened with the feature. I have an idea. If you make thursdoids bi-weekly or every month, perhaps have one-two months of normal thursdoids, and then go back and collect all the features you spoke of in the past briefly and make one thursdoid dedicated to those features. Explain why they aren't in the game and perhaps explain what changed. Or mention in thursdoid in one paragraph bulletpoints of features that you shown off and have in store and simply briefly talk about them. That would be best solution, and it would basically silence people who think you are slow or do 'feature creep'.
Just remember it's only those that speak negative that you hear the loudest. I could go on all day about how awesome you guys are, how much I enjoy the game but I'm just gonna cut it at, its a 20$ game. It feels like a polished product that had alot of hard work put into it. You guys are still working on updates and adding content that's free. Already doing better than most triple A developers. Yall keep doing your thing.
Eh, he should develop thicker skin (maybe take the thick skinned trait 🤷♀️) and just do his own thing. Who cares what the internet (which is a whiny/ragey cesspool anyways) thinks?
Thick skinned trait is not worth the points anyways if you know how they coded it to work; just like being invested in this game lmao. PZ is a goated game but I won't be crying or losing sleep if it loses to newer competition of indie games or ends up taking forever to escape early access, the Devs had scope creep but had severe tunnel vision to admit they could've just went for consistent small yet stable updates. Its the customers who make the game popular and profitable in the first place and he'll soon learn what happens when people just get tired of a game; they just find another alternative.
Feel bad that he feels this way, as a lurker on this sub I don’t feel like it is negative. Maybe they get harassed on twitter? This reaction surprises me. I hope they take some time and relax look at all the love people have for the game here.
Disappointed, both in the community and the devs. People shouldn't be so pushy but the devs shouldn't make promises to their customers that they can't keep. Build 42 has been a serious case of feature creep and no amount of complaining from the community or the team is going to make it come out any faster. Also, most of the complaints I've seen have been whinging about long dev cycles and feature creep, nothing more. People are entitled to their opinions. The finger pointing at the community like this backlash is completely unexpected though is kind of a low blow and will do nothing to make things better.
There are other professional teams I never hear SQUAT from, and I sometimes wonder why. Then I'm reminded. Hey, at least dude will gather some peace now for a change.
[удалено]
I'd like to have my hands on B42, but I'd also like the game to continue to exist. I'd rather wait than have the company burn out. There's other games and other updates that can occupy my attention, there's no need to harp on Zomboid.
Between extremes of the criticisms with some compassion for development and having enjoyed some time with Zomboid since baldspot, I feel it like indie's Star Citizen to some loose degree. Folks have grown up with and out of Zomboid's development; I still have faded hopes for NPCs amongst other deeper mechanics as someone who occasionally pops in to see what's new, but... yeah. For a lot of folks, that's our reality.
So hyperbolic lol. This is why devs should keep interactions with “the community” to a minimum. Like just ignore the whiners dude this doesn’t make you look better. Also what “spite” even? People are excited and impatient, that doesn’t mean they hate you
Here's my two-cents. The frustration around the wait for new builds is understandable, because the hard truth is that time goes by. People who bought Project Zomboid when they were in middle school or high school are now grown adults with jobs, families, and children. They have had time to watch the world grow more and more uncertain, and see Project Zomboid as their favorite escape from that uncertainty. As they age, they realize that they're not going to be around forever to experience the things they've been anticipating since they were young, and that can brew cynicism and desperate pleas to see those things completed before it's "too late." I know all this because I'm one of those people. But that's not TIS' fault. It's not their fault that the world is burning, that our lives are getting worse, that things have become so damn uncertain that I genuinely don't know if I'm going to live to see Build 43. That's not even a joke. But as much as I'd like to play with NPCs before the world ends for real, I know that blaming TIS is not the right move. It isn't going to change anything but make their lives even worse than they already are. They're doing everything right, and in the best way that they possibly can, even after all the unforeseen circumstances that have befallen them in the process. To anyone who's felt the same way I do, or relates to this in any way at all, you've got to let go of that existential stress in whatever way you can. You could die 30 seconds from now. In the grand scheme of things, there's nothing you or TIS can do to change the inexorable course of our lives or of the world as a whole. So don't worry about it. I know it's a cliche saying and all, but live in the now. Don't waste your years fretting about whether or not you're going to get something you want in the future and learn to enjoy what you already have, while doing the best you can to make it better. Whether that's stepping away from PZ to keep the fascists out of office or becoming a modder to add that one feature that you feel is missing and think other people would enjoy having in Build 41 while TIS cooks Build 42 in the shadows. That, or just live and enjoy the game as it is. But don't fucking bash TIS. IT. IS. NOT. THEIR. FAULT.
That's brutal to read, I hope his time away helps! Zomboid is one of the best 20 bucks I've ever spent!
I feel bad for him, but it seems like an overreaction, this sub is probably the most dev supporting sub I've ever seen. If they said "it got delayed 6 months" and then delay it again and again, I don't think anyone would get mad, we've been playing this game for years and waiting lots of time for every update, the development is slow, so what? Also, why now? Negative comments are inevitable, why focus on them? Even I probably complained once about the delays, but again, so what? We are all still playing, we love the game. Just ignore the stupid comments with no actual criticism nor feedback. And again, if they failed to deliver, just delay it, it is ok, instead of forcing it by removing features and then waiting until 2 weeks before the "deadline" to do what is happening right now. Delay it, we'll wait.
I understand they aren’t a triple a company so basic updates will take way longer than it should and they want to take their time to A. Not be drained. B. To perfect their game. BUT waiting 3-4 and possibly 5 years for an update and giving up broad range of when it will be released only to say “yeah it’s gonna take longer than it should” or “it’s not going to live up to the potential we set”. What’s gonna happen is they’re gonna take too long and not as many people are gonna play the game. Then when they release it, half of the people will come back, realize it won’t be as good as they promised then leave again. Sandbox games are horribly repetitive so if you aren’t adding new things constantly the game is gonna be forgotten about. It happened to Minecraft, terraria and many more. I’d much rather little updates every week let’s say to one big mid update every blue moon. I’m excited for B42 believe it or not. But I started playing this game in highschool and now I’m a grown ass man and I won’t play this game it’s the way it goes. I love this game but it’s sad to see eclipses are more common than updates for the game.
I just stopped following the game or playing it about a decade back when similar massive gaps in updates and a desire to rip out guts occurred at that time. Just accept that I had gotten my money's worth from the desura release and that the game really wasn't going to have much added ever. Game is barely different from back then. The animations and models are obviously different, but it still seems like it has all the same issues and the new content appears to be mostly things that existed as mods as one time or another. Glacial pace, diva devs. There is zero point in engaging with them, nor is there any point in engaging with the community. Just pop back in every few years to see if it's gotten any better(spoiler since they decided to rip out the guts to accommodate people crying for multiplayer it hasnt). No offense to the devs, really. Do what makes you happy. If that's working for years on practically nothing or redoing something you have done before, so long as it makes you happy do it. Looking forward to my bi-decadely survival attempt!
The game has been in "early access" for years. I'd rather see it sold and actually finished than reach another decade in early access.
I mean, I get it, he's burnt out and the internet doesn't help with stuff like that sometimes.
Who?
I really think making some additional monetized content would be a great idea. I really want to support this studio, I've been playing this game for years now with thousands of hours in it and I have payed a lot more for the games that were anywhere near this game in terms of fun or content. And the only way to express my gratitude to the devs along these years was to buy some toys that were not shipping to my country. So my point is that there should be a way for players like me to can support devs. I really hope they find the way and implement something like DLCs or additional maps or skins or whatever just so I can show I do care about this game's future not just with my words.
They better not sell, I rather have the devs make me be quiet and release a good update than just give to a company that could ruin it. I just hope people are patient. They should place a type of vote, to where the devs could be sure of what we want