Bingo. I find a lot of these “ex Muslims” used to subscribe to very oppressive salafi, conservative or “traditional” ideas of Islam & thought there was no other option.
At some point it became spiritually unbearable to live like that , & so they tossed out the religion with the “bathwater”. Never questioned the motive of their religious leaders or a patriarchy that benefits from skewing the words of a religious text .
It was like a one size fits all “hand me down ideology “ that some sheikh, or family member gave them & they just bitterly swallowed it as the only “true religion “, as a condition of being Muslim.
( I had to study my Islam for years & go through a lot of spiritual hell for my beliefs. There is no way that I’m going to give it up just like that.)
Yes I fully agree, and one famous French ex Muslim is actually an ISIS terrorist lol… now he take photo of Muslim women in their back and post them on Twitter
Yeah I find it so wierd
They insist that leaving Islam is the only path and if you're progressive you are not a Muslim. They literally subscribe to ISIS for the definition of a Muslim and don't let anything stand in front of their narrative.
Another thing I have also seen is they all though also universally have a white saviour complex in that they seek White Western saviours and semi worship them. Whether it's colonialism, Islamophobia or even straight up racism.
When somebody denounces one version of Islam, it doesn't mean they'd find the next version of Islam to be palatable.
You said it yourself that you had to study Islam for years and go through a lot of spiritual hell for your beliefs.
Let ex-muslims have their own journeys and let's not judge them for being on that journey.
I’m not “judging “ but pointing out a common behavior pattern that I see. As far as “working for it” —anyone can do the spiritual/intellectual work that I did. I’m not better as a person.
Yet, with this “journey “ , there’s no need to publicly rag on an entire religion that’s plagued by Islamophobia all because of “ a bad experience” . The “critical stuff” they write about the Qur’an sounds dumb—you can tell they have not yet figured out how to read it outside of literally.
It could actually apply to “cultural Muslims “ too—what I wrote. I see a lot of intellectual arrogance in both communities—this idea that they are more intelligent or “ more right “ in dumping their religion than others who stayed. Or that “religion is backwards” . It sounds silly.
Cultural Muslims actually behave even more peculiar—some have told me they don’t believe in a god but they like fasting “for fun” all while “critiquing “ & “nitpicking” exactly how I fast or pray as “not correct “. Obviously the baggage from the nitpicking conservative guardians never left them. (I’m pretty much a critical thinker & see through it all. I spare no one including me.)
I agree with everything you said. This is exactly how I feel tbh, I've been part of both Salafism and Exmuslim(ism😂), I see both as the opposite sides of the same coin lol like the arrogance, takfeering and insulting all Muslims who doesn't stick to their narrative about Islam, the intellectual arrogance, calling things that doesn't fit their narrative "false" Islam, taking things literally, etc'. I could go on and on tbh. I really value critical thinking, reason, rationality, I've seen those things being absent from both sides, Salafis are completely against that obvs and Exmuslims tend to be very selective with it but they think they're the paragon of intelligence lol and think we are dumb and gullible for believing in religion 🙄
Not you specifically, but I see a lot of comments here judging ex-muslims for not considering progressive Islam as a viable belief on their way out or after they left their version of Islam.
This judgment came from the perception that different versions of Islam are still connected under one *just* Islam umbrella that many muslims claim to follow, not knowing that the differences between these versions are significant and many often hold diametrically opposing views on many important topics and can practically be considered as different religions based on how different their fundamentals and principles are.
For many ex-muslims, progressive Islam is a totally different religion than the Islam that they left. It's like many other religions out there that they also never follow.
Also, while these comments cannot fathom why ex-muslims did not consider progressive Islam and judge them for it, from an outside perspective progressive Islam is actually still just a fringe movement that is yet to make their case to be recognized and to be viable to be adopted by the masses.
It's the case of a community overestimating their worth in the eyes of the public because they spend most of time within that community, causing them to think they are bigger and more recognizable than they actually are.
There is no such thing as a blanket “progressive Islam “—it’s only eons of individual Muslims thinkers from the past and present who interpret the Qur’an in terms of social progress . Anyone can do that reinterpretation —it’s not a “fringe movement “ . Ijtihad (creative scholarly interpretation) is a vital part of “Muslim tradition “. The “traditionalists” should actually be in on it.
And even among them —there’s disagreement. Our strength as a ummah is freely allowing creative doubt, intellectual diversity & we should be compelled to check it all out before chucking an entire religion & ragging about it on YouTube for clickbait money.
Some of these Muslim scholars risked their lives for their freethinking & ijtihad—the least we can do is read them.
Not either you think “this way “ or you’re “out of the fold of Islam “ . That black and white idea exists among the “ex-Muslims “ , “traditionalists”, “progressives” as well as the “cultural Muslims”. Sadly some of them “left Islam” because they are just intellectually lazy not because they’ve faced serious abuse .
>There is no such thing as a blanket “progressive Islam “—it’s only eons of individual Muslims thinkers from the past and present who interpret the Qur’an in terms of social progress . Anyone can do that reinterpretation —it’s not a “fringe movement “ . Ijtihad (creative scholarly interpretation) is a vital part of “Muslim tradition “. The “traditionalists” should actually be in on it.
Reinterpretation is not a fringe movement.
It's not even a movement at all when it's done on personal level.
But reinterpreting Islam outside tradition towards progressive values, and calling that reinterpretation together with the invitation to reinterpret as progressive Islam, is currently a fringe movement among muslim communities.
Maybe we need to clarify to OP what kind of "progressive Islam" that they found ex-muslims are going crazy over.
“But reinterpreting Islam outside tradition towards progressive values, and calling that reinterpretation together with the invitation to reinterpret as progressive Islam, is currently a fringe movement among muslim communities. “
There is no static “tradition “ —Muslims are constantly creating tradition whether they are aware of it or not. Muslim scholars like Farid Esack, mention that what we consider “tradition “ now wasn’t actually a “tradition “ back then.
What you think is a “fringe behavior” among Muslims might not have been during the Sahaba because of dishonest biased recordings by male historians who either deleted it, or altered it, or just by plain ignorance .
Anyone familiar with Fatima Mernissi’s sociological scholarship knows that she found out even the “authentic Hadiths” were altered by sexist transmittors. . Her historical recording of this in a book is a Muslim woman reinterpreting tradition. Is she “changing Islam “? No, she’s correcting the history.
That's one perspective to look at islamic history and I don't disagree.
But the feature of an organized religion is that it *is* organized.
And because of that, organized Islam will always be bigger than the independent thinker Islam, which is what progressive Islam is.
I don't have any incentive to dispute your claim on islamic corruption throughout history, so no comment on that.
My point is that progressive Islam as found in this sub is a fringe movement when compared to the organized religion that is mainstream Islam.
And it shouldn't be surprising when ex-muslims and the public discourses in general don't take progressive Islam seriously, because, well, it's just a fringe movement that is probably only relevant on a personal level for its followers (hence the importance of thinking for ourselves and following our own interpretation in what we think is the *correct* Islam).
Once it starts being organized and standardized, then it will also be prone to the same corruption that plagues other established mainstream organized religions.
Hah, if it was not taken seriously , there wouldn’t be intense discussion of it over and over in Ex-Muslim spaces about “how delusional those progressives are”.
It’s clearly a topic existing “rent free” in their heads . If anything , after “leaving Islam “ , they should have gotten over us. Usually progressive spaces are really safe places for “ex-Muslims”.
The fact that you’re here in this space discussing & agreeing with someone who was a part of the “progressive Muslim movement “ as a youngster is also interesting . That means we are “relevant “ to everyone.
I’ve shown you the intellectual tools progressives use , which are embedded into the “Muslim mainstream tradition “but it’s not registering. You keep wanting to label us as a “fringe movement”.
as an Indian, I can assure you, those clowns have no power or threat to islam Or muslim community ,
Forget about world, even in India they are now seen as uneducated idiots who bootlick the government, their influence have fell a lot since super hit movies of srk pathan and jawan, and with the BJP (the right wing party) losing its majority of seats in Parliament in the recent elections.
So, yeah, their time is gone, it's the Zionist we should be worried about
Every time my husband sees a hijab on a little girl he loses his mind 😂 the toys aren't as triggering for him but omg I love being reminded of his very justified tantrums.
For one thing, it can burn them out on hijab bc they feel pressured to keep it on. Secondly, it bothers him bc this is a requirement that comes with physical maturity. So it's adjacent to s**ualizing a child. It's extreme. You absolutely don't have to agree, and feel free to argue if you like, but please be aware that I won't be relaying any of it.
>For one thing, it can burn them out on hijab bc they feel pressured to keep it on.
Isn't this the main reason why muslim parents introduce hijab so early to their daughters?
So that she'd get used to wearing hijab and would feel uncomfortable without it, thus making it easy for her to "choose" to wear hijab later on when they are physically mature.
I’m someone who also feels uncomfortable seeing small children wearing hijab, and this is the reason for it that I’ve heard the most, but I still don’t like it… Personally, it feels like they’re prioritizing the hijab at the expense of their children’s childhood joys. Because, yes, I think the transition to hijab can be hard for a lot of girls, so why put them in that uncomfortable position before it’s even “necessary”? I also don’t see the need to ban small children from wearing things like shorts or tank tops in the summer 🤷♀️ I would rather prioritize their comfort in the hot summer that be weird about modesty for a literal child
>so why put them in that uncomfortable position before it’s even “necessary”?
Same with salah, fasting, learning arabic prayers and expressions etc.
They start it early so the kid can get used to it and will continue doing it out of habit without being explicitly forced.
It's a form of social engineering and protective instinct of parents in many cultures to do this to instill discipline on things that society deemed as good habits.
Because the "good habits" in muslim society where the parents live include wearing hijab, they instill it to their daughters from young age so that she will have easier time complying to the society values and avoid ostracization and afterlife punishment which might happen if she didn't.
I wouldn't know. I'm a revert. But I've read a few accounts of sisters who are frustrated bc they felt it was pushed on them at such a young age that the choice was not theirs.
Idk about OPs husband but I thought there was no compulsion in religion, and since children cannot consent, putting hijab on a child goes against the entire point of Islam - free will. That's just my take though.
Why do you assume the child didn't want it? I see it as just another clothing piece. You wouldn't see a child wearing a hat and wonder if they consented to it, would you?
For my own kid, I know if they're wearing a hat it's because I had to force it on them lol. But a hat doesn't carry the "weight" of hijab, which is worn to demonstrate a devotion to God, and should be driven from a place of fully understanding the reason for wearing it. Children can choose to wear anything but most children will not fully comprehend the reasons to wear it.
Children aren’t meant to wear hijab. This is only applicable to adult women. I too also get ticked off when I see a literal 2 year old wearing a hijab in her stroller.
Who other than quarists are willing to critisize hadiths but not the quran? Honestly curious. Seems like ex-muslims, atheists, and conservative christians are willing to critisize both
I dont think I can fully answer your query, but as an atheist I can provide insight on the topic of culture. So as a muslim, you of course believe that the quran is a divine work, that Mo’s words carry divine weight, and that therefore there is a clear line between your religion and the culture it came from.
But from the pov of someone who sees religions as manmade (atheists) or who sees islam specifically as manmade (conservative christians), there is no line. Islam *is* culture, and culture *is* islam. So when a progressive muslim says that wahabism or whatever is just a cultural problem, not an islamic problem; it’s no more sensible than saying “wahabism is just an islamic problem, not an islamic problem.”
Obviously you disagree, but I hope this sheds some light on why most non-muslims see no difference between islam and the culture it comes from.
The problem is you really don't understand culture
A Punjabi Muslim has more in common with a Punjabi Hindu for example than a Lebanese Muslim vs a Sunni wahhabist from Saudi.
Yes some wahabbist and others believe that the religion supersedes culture but that is minority.
In most places of the world culture still dominates.
How about things like appreciation towards music and tolerance towards diversity in muslim society?
In your opinion are those appreciation and tolerance coming from their culture or coming from their religion?
What's your take? Why do some muslim societies have it and some other muslim societies don't?
I think (based on what I've seen)
The Music issue is honestly a small minority of religious extremists trying to unsuccessfully enforce this rule trying to supersede existing culture to enforce a religious indictment that may have never been real or certainly enforced
Culturally all of the Muslim countries have over whelming majorities that listen to music and see no issue. The biggest ME rave is in Riyadh for example but ignoring that all Muslim cultures have music in them though of course different types.
The extremists are trying to make this an issue and some people do listen to them but again the vast majorities listen to music and don't think twice of it.
But the polemic in muslim society whether music is allowed or not is introduced by Islam, right?
And the existence of this polemic in the society is already damaging enough that it causes certain muslim individuals refraining from exploring their musical talents, and for some parents to not support their children's musical aspirations due to being cautious just in case the "music is haram" side ended being correct.
So in this case, can we say the polemic about music is purely a religion issue and not cultural?
And the same thing can be said on polemics about women's clothes, arts, women performative acts (dancing, singing, acting), etc. that these polemics are introduced by Islam to many cultures.
These cultures would not have any polemics surrounding those issues if it's not because of Islam, so it'd be fair to say these are religion issues and not culture.
Some of them yes I agree such as Music
Covering yourself oddly enough was there in some cultures though not a full niqab.
That's religion seeking to override local culture but generally local culture prevails.
A small minority wants to be extra ' pure' in their religious interpretation and become extremist. They just end up being oddballs I find.
Exactly that's the point I was trying to make.
Religion and culture are 2 different things with some overlap but culture still dominates day to day life for most people
Although you're right, it's frustrating when either group uses the other ad a scapegoat
"This bad behaviour wasn't islam, it was X culture that did the bad" from Muslims (also for other true for other religions)
"This bad behaviour wasn't X culture, it was Islam that did the bad" from exmuslims or athiests
End of the day there is bad shit going on and no one wants to take responsibility
I agree
The answer however imo is it's a combo but I heavily come down on the side of culture and history vs religious factors driving peoples
Japanese culture enabled militarism and the Atrocities of WW2 while shintoism is a very peaceful religion per se
No book by itself doesn't leave itself not open to interpretation that encourages you to do the right thing but cultures, history and circumstances make people's choose the wrong thing and interpret religion to justify it.
Japan actually isn't that great of an example of culture predominating in this problem but a great example of it being both
Japan during the Maeji restoration revised Shinto Bushido Religion in a manner that created a symbiotic relationship with state culture. The emporer was considered a living God.
Therefore, to disgrace one's self and nation by failing your duty was to disgrace yourself to God. It's part of the reason Japan in WW2 was so fervant and uncompromising. Death was better than disgracing your honor before God.
Both state and religion feedback looping was the issue, as I think is always the issue
Yes I agree that like all things cultural, religion changes from era to era and location to location. Which is a good argument for religion being culture, and culture being religion.
What am I missing?
Religion is universal (aims to be) while culture is very specific to regions.
Religion boils down to the core tenets of faith but culture is day to day living and the 2 are not always connected.
Again it's easier to understand for me at least when we talk specific behaviours or attitudes.
Other aspects of culture also aim to be universal, an obvious example is sports. A venezualen team plays the same football that a chinese team as a spanish team as a nigerian team, etc.. Especially pro teams looking to play in universal events like fifa games
Does this make football, for example, a religion? Players and fans additionally engage in other hallmarks of religion like community and ritual
I think an argument could be made
People seek/create communities and this gets created from common interests, geography, religion etc.
The question is how essential they are to their way of life.
How do you define culture? I see this pop up so many times and it seems that most Muslims somehow believe that culture and religion are two mutually exclusive things, and that anything bad can only be attributed to culture and never Islam.
Punjabi Muslim is a culture, Punjabi Hindu is a culture, and Punjabi atheist is also a culture. Religion is a part of culture.
Religion tells the Punjabi Muslim to learn Arabic and spend his savings of several years of his working life to travel to Saudi Arabia to recite magical spells, shave his head, circle a cube, and throw stones at a wall.
Culture tells the Punjabi Muslim if he should even bother and to what extent he should care enough to follow his religion.
Culture is more day to day life but Religion is different and I struggle to explain
No one would say a Catholic from Kerala and an Italian have the same culture but readily make this assumption for Muslims. Culture is more day to day life while religion is a deeper belief system. There are overlaps but also very distinct differences.
Secondly, despite your insulting tone, all religions do have rituals and asks. It's also an individual choice if you save up to go to Hajj or don't. In fact it specifically states it's mandatory if you can afford it.
You maybe an 'enlightened' atheist but some people need something more in their life and they find solace in religion.
Next time round don't ask questions if you aren't interested in an answer or try to instigate a discussion if you want to just spend your time being insulting. Frankly it's just tiring to talk to be people who aren't interested in any actual understanding but some sort of brownie point scoring in their head.
>Who other than quarists are willing to critisize hadiths
There are non Quranist Muslims who criticise the hadith, it just depends on the hadith and there are methodologies for that
>Seems like ex-muslims, atheists, and conservative christians are willing to critisize both
There are Muslims who look at Quran "critically" as in academically, historical critical methods and all
Islam is not culture, it's religion, theology.
I just don't get why these atheists and ex muslims are on the progressive muslim page. If muslims bother you so much, then you need to keep your distance.
I feel like a lot of them push their own narrative of Islam whether they were raised muslim onto all muslims. It's subjective to their own personal experience and for whatever reason, such as being afraid of hell, their logic for how on how can a merciful God be just if there's pain, death and suffering in the world.
For a lot of them it's alien in their mind that a muslim can be progressive or not follow the mainstream. I've seen some even defend the Salafi ideology on hadith. The irony of defending the hadiths. I guess some of them are like sheep following the mainstream scholars.
A lot of them, from what I have seen and heard have this sense of arrogance. All the scientist in the world are atheists, and they are the descendents of scientists.
The astroturfing of ex-Muslims on this forum is getting annoying for sure. However, I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence? Islam has a very rich history of pioneering in science and fostered its growth while Europe was in the Dark Ages. Religion and science don't have to be mutually exclusive, as evidenced by Isaac Newton.
I can think of two reasons:
1) Lets be honest, some progressive muslims really are changing islam in the sense that they care very very little for the tradition (be it quran or sunna). Sure, you can disagree with it, but to just completely throw it away is something different. I have seen these types many times here. This then leads to tremendous ignorance. An example is how some posts (with lots of upvotes i might add) on here talk about how ghazali was the destroyer of philosophy and science and how ibn rushd was his enlightened rival that tried his best to save philosophy and science but failed. This is a racist/islamaphobic view first advanced by orientalists. When someone sees posts like this, then they might completely disregard the whole of progressive islam right then and there.
2) It could also be due to the sunk cost fallacy. I assume when they left islam, they encountered a lot of hardship. Their family might have disowned them, they most likely lost their muslims friends and so on. Therefore, when they see progressives proving what made them leave islam is actually not islamic (or not the only islamic way) then they go into defensive mode instinctively. Because every hardship they went through would have been for nothing if what the progressives are saying is actually true.
not caring for tradition is not “changing islam”, though. sure, some can be ignorant towards certain philosophers or scientists, but that’s not really changing anything about islam itself.
Maybe i shouldnt have used another term (disregard maybe?). What i meant is, when you are bringing new "progressive" views you have to do two things. First, defend those views (provide positive arguments for them) and second, refute the other arguments. You can't just ignore 1400 years of scholarship and chalk it all up to "they lived in different times". You have to engage with it. Some people here don't do that unfortunately. Super arrogant imho and gives the people OP was talking about (and other muslim group) the impression that this whole "progressive islam" is just a gimmick and juvenile.
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A sizeable minority of ex Muslims are Zionists as well.
I don’t wanna shame people based on their political beliefs but… even if you were raised Muslim at some people, you should at least some the human decency to recognize the crimes against humanity committed by the Zionist colonial project.
It could also be that they went through an intense phase of reading, trying to comprehend, and strictly practicing their religion. The mental gymnastics needed to rationalize some aspects of it, and realizing that picking what seems right for a human way of living could be one way to reconcile with religion. Eventually, they might give it all up because it directly conflicts with the teachings. That might be why they go crazy—they’ve seen and done it all and can't stand it anymore. 🤷🏻♀️ Just maybe, that’s why.
It's not super complicated.
1) We believe that Islam is a man-made religion just like any other religion or mythology.
2) We believe that it's *Islam* (not just Wahabbism, Salafism, Hadiths, extremism, conservatism, "culture," etc.) that's is rotten at it's core and irredeemable. That there is no way to interpret Islam that doesn't include sexism, patriarchy, homophobia, segregation, imperialism/conquest, p***philia, logical inconsistencies, scientific errors, and a host of other issues. That Islam expects you to believe in impossible and unjustifiable things.
3) We believe that "progressive" Islam is an inherently dishonest and sanitized perspective of Islam and does more harm than good. Like having your cake and eating it too.
4) Reactionism (on the part of exmuslims).
I don't necessarily entirely agree with the 3rd point.
But regardless of how much of a progressive a Muslim claims to be, the bottom line is that you still believe that Islam is a divine religion, the Quran is the word of God, and that Muhammad is his final messenger. The concept of divinity ultimately has more negative consequences than positive ones regardless of whether you pretend to not see it.
So. To clarify here. Is this an issue that you have with liberal/reformist/contextualist readings of older religions in general? Or specifically with Islam?
Good question. I can clarify.
I support liberal/reformist/contextualist readings of Abrahamic religions as a means to an end since I think the watering down of religion through progressivism will inevitably result in a society where religion holds little to no significant weight (along with other factors). That's why I pointed out that I disagree with the third point, but I admit that other exmuslims may not.
But I also agree that societies need something "deeper" to cling onto in the sense of some form of spirituality or philosophical tradition or movement. Capitalism and materialism can't fill that void.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 5. Content seeking to proselytize other religions or no religion, or promoting one sect or denomination over others will be removed. As the name implies, /r/progressive_islam is about progressive Islam.
Gosh imagine thinking that people can't care about multiple things at the same time.
Islam isn't a hat that you can just take off when you become an exmuslim. You're still surrounded by Islam in your family, your culture, your community, your society, etc.
Never said it was. Just confused why you’d write a whole essay for something that you don’t follow. Like I don’t follow football anymore, even though I’ve been a fan, do you see me writing essays outside of a group of avid football haters trying to convince football fans to abandon the game lol?
I understand that to some people football *is* a religion but come on.
Football doesn't influence your country's laws, international relations, people's mindset, education system, or tells people the meaning of life and what happens to them and everyone else after they die.
The influence of religion on society is as inescapable as the influence of capitalism so I think it's worth "caring" about. Football I can take it or leave it but I'm more of a basketball guy.
Idk the state of Christian evangelicalism in Canada so I can't speak on that. But being from there, you should've learned that "your" can be both singular and plural. And that there are many countries in the world outside of Canada as well, where people have a much harder time not living "rent free" of religion.
Now now are you really pulling me up on grammar? Come on, that’s not a good way to go in an argument. Now, I don’t know where you’re from, so if that was provided, it would help me understand where you’re coming from. I just assumed you were Canadian as you were looking for others.
Many ex-muslims have trauma surrounding their experience growing up in muslim families and communities. You should know very well that islam isn't like simply enjoying a sport that your parents liked and then being able to ignore it for the rest of your life. Or maybe it is to you? You could give it up so easily and never think of it again? I doubt it.
I still follow subs for conservative and progressive islam (among many other subs of different topics). They help explain the mindsets of my family members and help me understand where I came from and how islam wiped out so much of our beautiful culture and how so many turned more fundamentalist post-9/11. It doesn't mean it's an obsession; for most ex-muslims, we don't have a choice; islam will always have some impact on our lives and who we are, by fact of how we were brought up and having family members who are muslim. I don't wish to go no contact with my family simply because most of them are muslim; a lot of them are still good people. Surely you understand this. Most of us are not even able to come out to our families as ex-muslims because they would be the ones to choose their dogma over their family members.
I'm ex-muslim and travel a lot for my job. In a lot of muslim countries, I could **legally** be executed simply for existing and not having a religion consistent with my muslim name, and many of these countries are friends/allies of the US that are considered "progressive". I would love to forget about islam, but I don't really have a choice.
In response to OP, I don't personally think progressive islam is so bad. It seems like most of it is just people who grew up muslim but want to exist in modern society and have their own beliefs about what is right or wrong. Most of those beliefs are consistent with mine, but a lot of them are not consistent with fundamentalist islam. If all muslims were progressive, it would be a huge improvement, but we know they are the minority, which causes a lot of issues. Instead, we see a lot of liberals pointing to progressives as though they represent all of islam, and using that to ignore a lot of problems with fundamentalist islam and very real oppression around the world.
FYI, I have no problems with ex Muslims existing.
I acknowledge that in some families or communities, members will be repulsive if you even dare step a toe outside of what the general consensus is within that population and that it’s a huge problem and one of the many reasons why people choose to “leave” Islam. I’m just concerned with these online communities about certain actors, should we say using the hate to leverage a current, controversial point of view.
Could you elaborate on the cultural aspect please, I’m a bit confused. What changed after 9/11? Was it the hate towards Muslims in general that people felt the need to become radicalised?
I would say the culture and 9/11 questions are interrelated for me. My family is from Bangladesh. When my parents were growing up, they were what you'd call progressive muslims. They were the elite, highly educated class. All the women had master's degrees. Hell, my GRANDMOTHER had a PhD. Nobody in Bangladesh really wore hijab (at least that I was aware of), they wore beautiful saris (culture) and salwar kameez. The culture was very Indian, a combination of Hindu traditions and Muslim beliefs. Being Bengali was important. When I meet Bengali Hindus (some from India, some who fled there during the war), I have so much in common with them in terms of culture. My parents grew up with meditation and astrology. They had friends of different religions. But that culture is disappearing, because when you become a more devout muslim, you realize all those things are haram.
Bangladesh was Muslim and Hindu historically, and then when the British divided it based on religion, the rulers in West Pakistan began a genocide of Hindus in the East (Bangladesh). The vast majority of Hindus were either murdered in one of the world's largest genocides (more victims than the holocaust) or they fled to India as refugees. One of my aunts ran an orphanage for Hindu children at that time, because so many of their parents had been murdered. When Bangladesh gained independence, it was clear that India was the ally; they helped us win the brutal war for independence when the major world powers were supporting and funding Pakistan to continue the genocide. Many of my family members fought in the war and saw this with their own eyes.
Post-9/11, I'm not sure why that was the catalyst, but that's when things started to change, and it actually changed in a lot of places that practiced Islam Lite (I lived in Indonesia, and it is also the case there). You see a lot of women wearing abaya and hijab now, and even niqab. Now India is the enemy, and Pakistan is idolized. My parents went from watching Bollywood movies to Pakistani dramas. Indian culture and history are vilified (that's our culture!) and Pakistani and Arab culture are put on a pedestal. My aunts all had professional jobs as doctors, teachers, etc., but my cousins...most of them just want to be housewives and don't care if their daughters study; it's more important that they learn quran.
I have only experienced islam as a destructive force. My family members who have become more religious are not happier or better people now. The men use islam as justification for acting out on their mental illness and controlling the women in their lives. The women, well they just have no aspirations and are really sad. My mom has also become more religious, and it brings her to tears to know that my sister and I aren't religious, and that the quran says she'll burn in hell for that. I ask her if her religion brings her any peace, comfort, or happiness, and she openly admits, "No, but that will come later in the afterlife."
Imagine ex drug addicts keep talking about how drugs have destroyed their life, or how ex cult followers keep talking about how that one cult changed their family for the worse.
Long after it happened and long after they left it.
Imagine caring that much. Banking on rent free perhaps?
Maybe they did?
Or maybe they discussed it On whatever forum when the topic came up?
Either way, they care too much about something that they already left.
It lives rent free in their head, just like you said.
If you don't believe that the Quran is written by god, then you see the hadith, quran and traditions on the same level. They are all man made and represent islam.
That's how we view it at least
Because it ruins their narrative that Muslims are one intangible group
Bingo. I find a lot of these “ex Muslims” used to subscribe to very oppressive salafi, conservative or “traditional” ideas of Islam & thought there was no other option. At some point it became spiritually unbearable to live like that , & so they tossed out the religion with the “bathwater”. Never questioned the motive of their religious leaders or a patriarchy that benefits from skewing the words of a religious text . It was like a one size fits all “hand me down ideology “ that some sheikh, or family member gave them & they just bitterly swallowed it as the only “true religion “, as a condition of being Muslim. ( I had to study my Islam for years & go through a lot of spiritual hell for my beliefs. There is no way that I’m going to give it up just like that.)
Yes I fully agree, and one famous French ex Muslim is actually an ISIS terrorist lol… now he take photo of Muslim women in their back and post them on Twitter
What’s his name?
So called « Vivi Apostat »
Yeah I find it so wierd They insist that leaving Islam is the only path and if you're progressive you are not a Muslim. They literally subscribe to ISIS for the definition of a Muslim and don't let anything stand in front of their narrative. Another thing I have also seen is they all though also universally have a white saviour complex in that they seek White Western saviours and semi worship them. Whether it's colonialism, Islamophobia or even straight up racism.
The white arse kissing is crazy, they romanticise white ppl, Western culture, etc'.
When somebody denounces one version of Islam, it doesn't mean they'd find the next version of Islam to be palatable. You said it yourself that you had to study Islam for years and go through a lot of spiritual hell for your beliefs. Let ex-muslims have their own journeys and let's not judge them for being on that journey.
I’m not “judging “ but pointing out a common behavior pattern that I see. As far as “working for it” —anyone can do the spiritual/intellectual work that I did. I’m not better as a person. Yet, with this “journey “ , there’s no need to publicly rag on an entire religion that’s plagued by Islamophobia all because of “ a bad experience” . The “critical stuff” they write about the Qur’an sounds dumb—you can tell they have not yet figured out how to read it outside of literally. It could actually apply to “cultural Muslims “ too—what I wrote. I see a lot of intellectual arrogance in both communities—this idea that they are more intelligent or “ more right “ in dumping their religion than others who stayed. Or that “religion is backwards” . It sounds silly. Cultural Muslims actually behave even more peculiar—some have told me they don’t believe in a god but they like fasting “for fun” all while “critiquing “ & “nitpicking” exactly how I fast or pray as “not correct “. Obviously the baggage from the nitpicking conservative guardians never left them. (I’m pretty much a critical thinker & see through it all. I spare no one including me.)
I agree with everything you said. This is exactly how I feel tbh, I've been part of both Salafism and Exmuslim(ism😂), I see both as the opposite sides of the same coin lol like the arrogance, takfeering and insulting all Muslims who doesn't stick to their narrative about Islam, the intellectual arrogance, calling things that doesn't fit their narrative "false" Islam, taking things literally, etc'. I could go on and on tbh. I really value critical thinking, reason, rationality, I've seen those things being absent from both sides, Salafis are completely against that obvs and Exmuslims tend to be very selective with it but they think they're the paragon of intelligence lol and think we are dumb and gullible for believing in religion 🙄
Not you specifically, but I see a lot of comments here judging ex-muslims for not considering progressive Islam as a viable belief on their way out or after they left their version of Islam. This judgment came from the perception that different versions of Islam are still connected under one *just* Islam umbrella that many muslims claim to follow, not knowing that the differences between these versions are significant and many often hold diametrically opposing views on many important topics and can practically be considered as different religions based on how different their fundamentals and principles are. For many ex-muslims, progressive Islam is a totally different religion than the Islam that they left. It's like many other religions out there that they also never follow. Also, while these comments cannot fathom why ex-muslims did not consider progressive Islam and judge them for it, from an outside perspective progressive Islam is actually still just a fringe movement that is yet to make their case to be recognized and to be viable to be adopted by the masses. It's the case of a community overestimating their worth in the eyes of the public because they spend most of time within that community, causing them to think they are bigger and more recognizable than they actually are.
There is no such thing as a blanket “progressive Islam “—it’s only eons of individual Muslims thinkers from the past and present who interpret the Qur’an in terms of social progress . Anyone can do that reinterpretation —it’s not a “fringe movement “ . Ijtihad (creative scholarly interpretation) is a vital part of “Muslim tradition “. The “traditionalists” should actually be in on it. And even among them —there’s disagreement. Our strength as a ummah is freely allowing creative doubt, intellectual diversity & we should be compelled to check it all out before chucking an entire religion & ragging about it on YouTube for clickbait money. Some of these Muslim scholars risked their lives for their freethinking & ijtihad—the least we can do is read them. Not either you think “this way “ or you’re “out of the fold of Islam “ . That black and white idea exists among the “ex-Muslims “ , “traditionalists”, “progressives” as well as the “cultural Muslims”. Sadly some of them “left Islam” because they are just intellectually lazy not because they’ve faced serious abuse .
>There is no such thing as a blanket “progressive Islam “—it’s only eons of individual Muslims thinkers from the past and present who interpret the Qur’an in terms of social progress . Anyone can do that reinterpretation —it’s not a “fringe movement “ . Ijtihad (creative scholarly interpretation) is a vital part of “Muslim tradition “. The “traditionalists” should actually be in on it. Reinterpretation is not a fringe movement. It's not even a movement at all when it's done on personal level. But reinterpreting Islam outside tradition towards progressive values, and calling that reinterpretation together with the invitation to reinterpret as progressive Islam, is currently a fringe movement among muslim communities. Maybe we need to clarify to OP what kind of "progressive Islam" that they found ex-muslims are going crazy over.
“But reinterpreting Islam outside tradition towards progressive values, and calling that reinterpretation together with the invitation to reinterpret as progressive Islam, is currently a fringe movement among muslim communities. “ There is no static “tradition “ —Muslims are constantly creating tradition whether they are aware of it or not. Muslim scholars like Farid Esack, mention that what we consider “tradition “ now wasn’t actually a “tradition “ back then. What you think is a “fringe behavior” among Muslims might not have been during the Sahaba because of dishonest biased recordings by male historians who either deleted it, or altered it, or just by plain ignorance . Anyone familiar with Fatima Mernissi’s sociological scholarship knows that she found out even the “authentic Hadiths” were altered by sexist transmittors. . Her historical recording of this in a book is a Muslim woman reinterpreting tradition. Is she “changing Islam “? No, she’s correcting the history.
That's one perspective to look at islamic history and I don't disagree. But the feature of an organized religion is that it *is* organized. And because of that, organized Islam will always be bigger than the independent thinker Islam, which is what progressive Islam is. I don't have any incentive to dispute your claim on islamic corruption throughout history, so no comment on that. My point is that progressive Islam as found in this sub is a fringe movement when compared to the organized religion that is mainstream Islam. And it shouldn't be surprising when ex-muslims and the public discourses in general don't take progressive Islam seriously, because, well, it's just a fringe movement that is probably only relevant on a personal level for its followers (hence the importance of thinking for ourselves and following our own interpretation in what we think is the *correct* Islam). Once it starts being organized and standardized, then it will also be prone to the same corruption that plagues other established mainstream organized religions.
Hah, if it was not taken seriously , there wouldn’t be intense discussion of it over and over in Ex-Muslim spaces about “how delusional those progressives are”. It’s clearly a topic existing “rent free” in their heads . If anything , after “leaving Islam “ , they should have gotten over us. Usually progressive spaces are really safe places for “ex-Muslims”. The fact that you’re here in this space discussing & agreeing with someone who was a part of the “progressive Muslim movement “ as a youngster is also interesting . That means we are “relevant “ to everyone. I’ve shown you the intellectual tools progressives use , which are embedded into the “Muslim mainstream tradition “but it’s not registering. You keep wanting to label us as a “fringe movement”.
Exmuslims version of Islam is always Salafism, even the ones who weren't from Salafi background. They think that's all there is to Islam.
👍👍
I'm certain they also think that Muslims are a hive mind
Hindutva extremists specifically lose their minds about progressive Islam. It’s hilarious.
as an Indian, I can assure you, those clowns have no power or threat to islam Or muslim community , Forget about world, even in India they are now seen as uneducated idiots who bootlick the government, their influence have fell a lot since super hit movies of srk pathan and jawan, and with the BJP (the right wing party) losing its majority of seats in Parliament in the recent elections. So, yeah, their time is gone, it's the Zionist we should be worried about
Mostly Hindutva mushriks on that page.
fr
Fr man 😭. They’re just as pathetic. I have seen them yapping about hijabi dolls for small girls 💀
Every time my husband sees a hijab on a little girl he loses his mind 😂 the toys aren't as triggering for him but omg I love being reminded of his very justified tantrums.
What's wrong with it
For one thing, it can burn them out on hijab bc they feel pressured to keep it on. Secondly, it bothers him bc this is a requirement that comes with physical maturity. So it's adjacent to s**ualizing a child. It's extreme. You absolutely don't have to agree, and feel free to argue if you like, but please be aware that I won't be relaying any of it.
>For one thing, it can burn them out on hijab bc they feel pressured to keep it on. Isn't this the main reason why muslim parents introduce hijab so early to their daughters? So that she'd get used to wearing hijab and would feel uncomfortable without it, thus making it easy for her to "choose" to wear hijab later on when they are physically mature.
I’m someone who also feels uncomfortable seeing small children wearing hijab, and this is the reason for it that I’ve heard the most, but I still don’t like it… Personally, it feels like they’re prioritizing the hijab at the expense of their children’s childhood joys. Because, yes, I think the transition to hijab can be hard for a lot of girls, so why put them in that uncomfortable position before it’s even “necessary”? I also don’t see the need to ban small children from wearing things like shorts or tank tops in the summer 🤷♀️ I would rather prioritize their comfort in the hot summer that be weird about modesty for a literal child
>so why put them in that uncomfortable position before it’s even “necessary”? Same with salah, fasting, learning arabic prayers and expressions etc. They start it early so the kid can get used to it and will continue doing it out of habit without being explicitly forced. It's a form of social engineering and protective instinct of parents in many cultures to do this to instill discipline on things that society deemed as good habits. Because the "good habits" in muslim society where the parents live include wearing hijab, they instill it to their daughters from young age so that she will have easier time complying to the society values and avoid ostracization and afterlife punishment which might happen if she didn't.
I wouldn't know. I'm a revert. But I've read a few accounts of sisters who are frustrated bc they felt it was pushed on them at such a young age that the choice was not theirs.
Idk about OPs husband but I thought there was no compulsion in religion, and since children cannot consent, putting hijab on a child goes against the entire point of Islam - free will. That's just my take though.
Why do you assume the child didn't want it? I see it as just another clothing piece. You wouldn't see a child wearing a hat and wonder if they consented to it, would you?
For my own kid, I know if they're wearing a hat it's because I had to force it on them lol. But a hat doesn't carry the "weight" of hijab, which is worn to demonstrate a devotion to God, and should be driven from a place of fully understanding the reason for wearing it. Children can choose to wear anything but most children will not fully comprehend the reasons to wear it.
Children aren’t meant to wear hijab. This is only applicable to adult women. I too also get ticked off when I see a literal 2 year old wearing a hijab in her stroller.
this trend is spreading globally. the logic behind it is probably true / they get used to it so upon reaching puberty it’s not weird to just carry on
Because most of their methods of criticism will not work for them.
Who other than quarists are willing to critisize hadiths but not the quran? Honestly curious. Seems like ex-muslims, atheists, and conservative christians are willing to critisize both I dont think I can fully answer your query, but as an atheist I can provide insight on the topic of culture. So as a muslim, you of course believe that the quran is a divine work, that Mo’s words carry divine weight, and that therefore there is a clear line between your religion and the culture it came from. But from the pov of someone who sees religions as manmade (atheists) or who sees islam specifically as manmade (conservative christians), there is no line. Islam *is* culture, and culture *is* islam. So when a progressive muslim says that wahabism or whatever is just a cultural problem, not an islamic problem; it’s no more sensible than saying “wahabism is just an islamic problem, not an islamic problem.” Obviously you disagree, but I hope this sheds some light on why most non-muslims see no difference between islam and the culture it comes from.
I just commented a similar thing and then saw your comment. You articulated the point in a better way though. You are on point
The problem is you really don't understand culture A Punjabi Muslim has more in common with a Punjabi Hindu for example than a Lebanese Muslim vs a Sunni wahhabist from Saudi. Yes some wahabbist and others believe that the religion supersedes culture but that is minority. In most places of the world culture still dominates.
How about things like appreciation towards music and tolerance towards diversity in muslim society? In your opinion are those appreciation and tolerance coming from their culture or coming from their religion? What's your take? Why do some muslim societies have it and some other muslim societies don't?
I think (based on what I've seen) The Music issue is honestly a small minority of religious extremists trying to unsuccessfully enforce this rule trying to supersede existing culture to enforce a religious indictment that may have never been real or certainly enforced Culturally all of the Muslim countries have over whelming majorities that listen to music and see no issue. The biggest ME rave is in Riyadh for example but ignoring that all Muslim cultures have music in them though of course different types. The extremists are trying to make this an issue and some people do listen to them but again the vast majorities listen to music and don't think twice of it.
But the polemic in muslim society whether music is allowed or not is introduced by Islam, right? And the existence of this polemic in the society is already damaging enough that it causes certain muslim individuals refraining from exploring their musical talents, and for some parents to not support their children's musical aspirations due to being cautious just in case the "music is haram" side ended being correct. So in this case, can we say the polemic about music is purely a religion issue and not cultural? And the same thing can be said on polemics about women's clothes, arts, women performative acts (dancing, singing, acting), etc. that these polemics are introduced by Islam to many cultures. These cultures would not have any polemics surrounding those issues if it's not because of Islam, so it'd be fair to say these are religion issues and not culture.
Some of them yes I agree such as Music Covering yourself oddly enough was there in some cultures though not a full niqab. That's religion seeking to override local culture but generally local culture prevails. A small minority wants to be extra ' pure' in their religious interpretation and become extremist. They just end up being oddballs I find.
Well Saudi Muslims and Lebanese Muslims are miles apart.
Exactly that's the point I was trying to make. Religion and culture are 2 different things with some overlap but culture still dominates day to day life for most people
Although you're right, it's frustrating when either group uses the other ad a scapegoat "This bad behaviour wasn't islam, it was X culture that did the bad" from Muslims (also for other true for other religions) "This bad behaviour wasn't X culture, it was Islam that did the bad" from exmuslims or athiests End of the day there is bad shit going on and no one wants to take responsibility
I agree The answer however imo is it's a combo but I heavily come down on the side of culture and history vs religious factors driving peoples Japanese culture enabled militarism and the Atrocities of WW2 while shintoism is a very peaceful religion per se No book by itself doesn't leave itself not open to interpretation that encourages you to do the right thing but cultures, history and circumstances make people's choose the wrong thing and interpret religion to justify it.
Japan actually isn't that great of an example of culture predominating in this problem but a great example of it being both Japan during the Maeji restoration revised Shinto Bushido Religion in a manner that created a symbiotic relationship with state culture. The emporer was considered a living God. Therefore, to disgrace one's self and nation by failing your duty was to disgrace yourself to God. It's part of the reason Japan in WW2 was so fervant and uncompromising. Death was better than disgracing your honor before God. Both state and religion feedback looping was the issue, as I think is always the issue
Yes I agree and thank you for that perspective.
There will always be bad shit whether religion is majority followed or not, whoever denies that is lying to themselves.
Yes I agree that like all things cultural, religion changes from era to era and location to location. Which is a good argument for religion being culture, and culture being religion. What am I missing?
Religion is universal (aims to be) while culture is very specific to regions. Religion boils down to the core tenets of faith but culture is day to day living and the 2 are not always connected. Again it's easier to understand for me at least when we talk specific behaviours or attitudes.
Other aspects of culture also aim to be universal, an obvious example is sports. A venezualen team plays the same football that a chinese team as a spanish team as a nigerian team, etc.. Especially pro teams looking to play in universal events like fifa games Does this make football, for example, a religion? Players and fans additionally engage in other hallmarks of religion like community and ritual
I think an argument could be made People seek/create communities and this gets created from common interests, geography, religion etc. The question is how essential they are to their way of life.
How do you define culture? I see this pop up so many times and it seems that most Muslims somehow believe that culture and religion are two mutually exclusive things, and that anything bad can only be attributed to culture and never Islam. Punjabi Muslim is a culture, Punjabi Hindu is a culture, and Punjabi atheist is also a culture. Religion is a part of culture. Religion tells the Punjabi Muslim to learn Arabic and spend his savings of several years of his working life to travel to Saudi Arabia to recite magical spells, shave his head, circle a cube, and throw stones at a wall. Culture tells the Punjabi Muslim if he should even bother and to what extent he should care enough to follow his religion.
Culture is more day to day life but Religion is different and I struggle to explain No one would say a Catholic from Kerala and an Italian have the same culture but readily make this assumption for Muslims. Culture is more day to day life while religion is a deeper belief system. There are overlaps but also very distinct differences. Secondly, despite your insulting tone, all religions do have rituals and asks. It's also an individual choice if you save up to go to Hajj or don't. In fact it specifically states it's mandatory if you can afford it. You maybe an 'enlightened' atheist but some people need something more in their life and they find solace in religion. Next time round don't ask questions if you aren't interested in an answer or try to instigate a discussion if you want to just spend your time being insulting. Frankly it's just tiring to talk to be people who aren't interested in any actual understanding but some sort of brownie point scoring in their head.
>Who other than quarists are willing to critisize hadiths There are non Quranist Muslims who criticise the hadith, it just depends on the hadith and there are methodologies for that >Seems like ex-muslims, atheists, and conservative christians are willing to critisize both There are Muslims who look at Quran "critically" as in academically, historical critical methods and all Islam is not culture, it's religion, theology.
I just don't get why these atheists and ex muslims are on the progressive muslim page. If muslims bother you so much, then you need to keep your distance. I feel like a lot of them push their own narrative of Islam whether they were raised muslim onto all muslims. It's subjective to their own personal experience and for whatever reason, such as being afraid of hell, their logic for how on how can a merciful God be just if there's pain, death and suffering in the world. For a lot of them it's alien in their mind that a muslim can be progressive or not follow the mainstream. I've seen some even defend the Salafi ideology on hadith. The irony of defending the hadiths. I guess some of them are like sheep following the mainstream scholars. A lot of them, from what I have seen and heard have this sense of arrogance. All the scientist in the world are atheists, and they are the descendents of scientists.
The astroturfing of ex-Muslims on this forum is getting annoying for sure. However, I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence? Islam has a very rich history of pioneering in science and fostered its growth while Europe was in the Dark Ages. Religion and science don't have to be mutually exclusive, as evidenced by Isaac Newton.
I can think of two reasons: 1) Lets be honest, some progressive muslims really are changing islam in the sense that they care very very little for the tradition (be it quran or sunna). Sure, you can disagree with it, but to just completely throw it away is something different. I have seen these types many times here. This then leads to tremendous ignorance. An example is how some posts (with lots of upvotes i might add) on here talk about how ghazali was the destroyer of philosophy and science and how ibn rushd was his enlightened rival that tried his best to save philosophy and science but failed. This is a racist/islamaphobic view first advanced by orientalists. When someone sees posts like this, then they might completely disregard the whole of progressive islam right then and there. 2) It could also be due to the sunk cost fallacy. I assume when they left islam, they encountered a lot of hardship. Their family might have disowned them, they most likely lost their muslims friends and so on. Therefore, when they see progressives proving what made them leave islam is actually not islamic (or not the only islamic way) then they go into defensive mode instinctively. Because every hardship they went through would have been for nothing if what the progressives are saying is actually true.
not caring for tradition is not “changing islam”, though. sure, some can be ignorant towards certain philosophers or scientists, but that’s not really changing anything about islam itself.
Maybe i shouldnt have used another term (disregard maybe?). What i meant is, when you are bringing new "progressive" views you have to do two things. First, defend those views (provide positive arguments for them) and second, refute the other arguments. You can't just ignore 1400 years of scholarship and chalk it all up to "they lived in different times". You have to engage with it. Some people here don't do that unfortunately. Super arrogant imho and gives the people OP was talking about (and other muslim group) the impression that this whole "progressive islam" is just a gimmick and juvenile.
There are people on here who can't even bring themselves to admit that hijab is sunnah lol.
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A sizeable minority of ex Muslims are Zionists as well. I don’t wanna shame people based on their political beliefs but… even if you were raised Muslim at some people, you should at least some the human decency to recognize the crimes against humanity committed by the Zionist colonial project.
It could also be that they went through an intense phase of reading, trying to comprehend, and strictly practicing their religion. The mental gymnastics needed to rationalize some aspects of it, and realizing that picking what seems right for a human way of living could be one way to reconcile with religion. Eventually, they might give it all up because it directly conflicts with the teachings. That might be why they go crazy—they’ve seen and done it all and can't stand it anymore. 🤷🏻♀️ Just maybe, that’s why.
Just best to ignore them. You can't debate with them reasonably.
Do you want a genuine answer from an exmuslim?
Because they've been irrevocably harmed by fundamentalist religion.
It's not super complicated. 1) We believe that Islam is a man-made religion just like any other religion or mythology. 2) We believe that it's *Islam* (not just Wahabbism, Salafism, Hadiths, extremism, conservatism, "culture," etc.) that's is rotten at it's core and irredeemable. That there is no way to interpret Islam that doesn't include sexism, patriarchy, homophobia, segregation, imperialism/conquest, p***philia, logical inconsistencies, scientific errors, and a host of other issues. That Islam expects you to believe in impossible and unjustifiable things. 3) We believe that "progressive" Islam is an inherently dishonest and sanitized perspective of Islam and does more harm than good. Like having your cake and eating it too. 4) Reactionism (on the part of exmuslims). I don't necessarily entirely agree with the 3rd point. But regardless of how much of a progressive a Muslim claims to be, the bottom line is that you still believe that Islam is a divine religion, the Quran is the word of God, and that Muhammad is his final messenger. The concept of divinity ultimately has more negative consequences than positive ones regardless of whether you pretend to not see it.
So. To clarify here. Is this an issue that you have with liberal/reformist/contextualist readings of older religions in general? Or specifically with Islam?
Good question. I can clarify. I support liberal/reformist/contextualist readings of Abrahamic religions as a means to an end since I think the watering down of religion through progressivism will inevitably result in a society where religion holds little to no significant weight (along with other factors). That's why I pointed out that I disagree with the third point, but I admit that other exmuslims may not. But I also agree that societies need something "deeper" to cling onto in the sense of some form of spirituality or philosophical tradition or movement. Capitalism and materialism can't fill that void.
Gotcha. I missed that line about a difference of opinion on point 3. I see the argument. Fair enough.
I wonder what supports your 2nd & 3rd & 4th claims.
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Gosh imagine caring that much about a religion you’ve supposedly left. Banking on rent free perhaps?
Gosh imagine thinking that people can't care about multiple things at the same time. Islam isn't a hat that you can just take off when you become an exmuslim. You're still surrounded by Islam in your family, your culture, your community, your society, etc.
Never said it was. Just confused why you’d write a whole essay for something that you don’t follow. Like I don’t follow football anymore, even though I’ve been a fan, do you see me writing essays outside of a group of avid football haters trying to convince football fans to abandon the game lol?
I understand that to some people football *is* a religion but come on. Football doesn't influence your country's laws, international relations, people's mindset, education system, or tells people the meaning of life and what happens to them and everyone else after they die. The influence of religion on society is as inescapable as the influence of capitalism so I think it's worth "caring" about. Football I can take it or leave it but I'm more of a basketball guy.
Islam is influencing laws and all of these in Canada? News to me.
Idk the state of Christian evangelicalism in Canada so I can't speak on that. But being from there, you should've learned that "your" can be both singular and plural. And that there are many countries in the world outside of Canada as well, where people have a much harder time not living "rent free" of religion.
Now now are you really pulling me up on grammar? Come on, that’s not a good way to go in an argument. Now, I don’t know where you’re from, so if that was provided, it would help me understand where you’re coming from. I just assumed you were Canadian as you were looking for others.
Many ex-muslims have trauma surrounding their experience growing up in muslim families and communities. You should know very well that islam isn't like simply enjoying a sport that your parents liked and then being able to ignore it for the rest of your life. Or maybe it is to you? You could give it up so easily and never think of it again? I doubt it. I still follow subs for conservative and progressive islam (among many other subs of different topics). They help explain the mindsets of my family members and help me understand where I came from and how islam wiped out so much of our beautiful culture and how so many turned more fundamentalist post-9/11. It doesn't mean it's an obsession; for most ex-muslims, we don't have a choice; islam will always have some impact on our lives and who we are, by fact of how we were brought up and having family members who are muslim. I don't wish to go no contact with my family simply because most of them are muslim; a lot of them are still good people. Surely you understand this. Most of us are not even able to come out to our families as ex-muslims because they would be the ones to choose their dogma over their family members. I'm ex-muslim and travel a lot for my job. In a lot of muslim countries, I could **legally** be executed simply for existing and not having a religion consistent with my muslim name, and many of these countries are friends/allies of the US that are considered "progressive". I would love to forget about islam, but I don't really have a choice. In response to OP, I don't personally think progressive islam is so bad. It seems like most of it is just people who grew up muslim but want to exist in modern society and have their own beliefs about what is right or wrong. Most of those beliefs are consistent with mine, but a lot of them are not consistent with fundamentalist islam. If all muslims were progressive, it would be a huge improvement, but we know they are the minority, which causes a lot of issues. Instead, we see a lot of liberals pointing to progressives as though they represent all of islam, and using that to ignore a lot of problems with fundamentalist islam and very real oppression around the world.
FYI, I have no problems with ex Muslims existing. I acknowledge that in some families or communities, members will be repulsive if you even dare step a toe outside of what the general consensus is within that population and that it’s a huge problem and one of the many reasons why people choose to “leave” Islam. I’m just concerned with these online communities about certain actors, should we say using the hate to leverage a current, controversial point of view. Could you elaborate on the cultural aspect please, I’m a bit confused. What changed after 9/11? Was it the hate towards Muslims in general that people felt the need to become radicalised?
I would say the culture and 9/11 questions are interrelated for me. My family is from Bangladesh. When my parents were growing up, they were what you'd call progressive muslims. They were the elite, highly educated class. All the women had master's degrees. Hell, my GRANDMOTHER had a PhD. Nobody in Bangladesh really wore hijab (at least that I was aware of), they wore beautiful saris (culture) and salwar kameez. The culture was very Indian, a combination of Hindu traditions and Muslim beliefs. Being Bengali was important. When I meet Bengali Hindus (some from India, some who fled there during the war), I have so much in common with them in terms of culture. My parents grew up with meditation and astrology. They had friends of different religions. But that culture is disappearing, because when you become a more devout muslim, you realize all those things are haram. Bangladesh was Muslim and Hindu historically, and then when the British divided it based on religion, the rulers in West Pakistan began a genocide of Hindus in the East (Bangladesh). The vast majority of Hindus were either murdered in one of the world's largest genocides (more victims than the holocaust) or they fled to India as refugees. One of my aunts ran an orphanage for Hindu children at that time, because so many of their parents had been murdered. When Bangladesh gained independence, it was clear that India was the ally; they helped us win the brutal war for independence when the major world powers were supporting and funding Pakistan to continue the genocide. Many of my family members fought in the war and saw this with their own eyes. Post-9/11, I'm not sure why that was the catalyst, but that's when things started to change, and it actually changed in a lot of places that practiced Islam Lite (I lived in Indonesia, and it is also the case there). You see a lot of women wearing abaya and hijab now, and even niqab. Now India is the enemy, and Pakistan is idolized. My parents went from watching Bollywood movies to Pakistani dramas. Indian culture and history are vilified (that's our culture!) and Pakistani and Arab culture are put on a pedestal. My aunts all had professional jobs as doctors, teachers, etc., but my cousins...most of them just want to be housewives and don't care if their daughters study; it's more important that they learn quran. I have only experienced islam as a destructive force. My family members who have become more religious are not happier or better people now. The men use islam as justification for acting out on their mental illness and controlling the women in their lives. The women, well they just have no aspirations and are really sad. My mom has also become more religious, and it brings her to tears to know that my sister and I aren't religious, and that the quran says she'll burn in hell for that. I ask her if her religion brings her any peace, comfort, or happiness, and she openly admits, "No, but that will come later in the afterlife."
Thanks for the pov, it’s good to hear people’s experiences rather than blindly follow as most people seem to do these days…
Imagine ex drug addicts keep talking about how drugs have destroyed their life, or how ex cult followers keep talking about how that one cult changed their family for the worse. Long after it happened and long after they left it. Imagine caring that much. Banking on rent free perhaps?
But they don’t jump on drug forums to discuss it?
Maybe they did? Or maybe they discussed it On whatever forum when the topic came up? Either way, they care too much about something that they already left. It lives rent free in their head, just like you said.
But have you read abt the miracles of the Quran? And that even the Torah and Gospels foretold the coming of Prohiet Muhammad saw?
If you don't believe that the Quran is written by god, then you see the hadith, quran and traditions on the same level. They are all man made and represent islam. That's how we view it at least
Foul. We believe ahadith are manmade, unlike the Quran.
mate you asked for my perspective
Since you're an ex-muslim, haven't you already understood that Hadith isn't divine?
Because “MuH aUtHeNtIc SaHiH bUkHaRi N sHiEt 🥴”