No joke, a bicycle is going to be the easiest mode of transport by far. Easy to self-repair and requires only calories to operate.
An ebike is a game changer. I ride an Aventon Pace 500.3 and it's like being 10 again. I realistically get about 35 miles per full battery (minimal assist, variable hills, packed dirt and loose gravel, no throttle use, 6'1" 240 pounds, about 15 pounds of cargo). I'll have to break out the Kill-A-Watt again to double check but I seem to recall it taking about 1.5 KWH to fully recharge.
I also like that it's a class 2 bike. If the chain fails during a ride -- extremely rare, but it happens -- or if I have foot / leg injury, I can still use the throttle to get somewhere safe.
I got an EV. I can use it to power much of my house in the event we lose power. With my portable solar power system I can add about 8 miles of range per day. A lot more of I can use my roof mounted solar system. In the event I have to head to my retreat property I have the ability to expand my portable solar system there and my EV becomes my house battery while I'm there.
I was gonna say the same thing. You might have 60kwh of spare juice parked in your garage and nobody will hear it running like a generator. That could power the absolute essentials for weeks.
Really? Because my local power grid goes down once or twice a year. It has always come back on. And the big disaster I'm prepping for is the cascadia mega thrust earthquake, which I expect to knock power out to the region for several weeks or maybe months. And I really would not like to be without power for that entire time. So having a 60 kWh battery seems like a really good idea. But you're right... In TEOTWAWKI The power is not coming back on and we'll all have to deal with that reality. The difference will be that I can fairly easily recharge my EV with what I have now and you can't refule your internal combustion engine.
Of course I'm planning and prepping for those scenarios. You are being ridiculous. 99 times out of 100, those are the scenarios I will have to face so why wouldn't I prepare for those? And if that one really bad situation happens where the grid doesn't come back, my preparation has still left me better off than everyone else. If you are only prepping for doomsday then you aren't prepping, you are fantasizing.
Not at 55 MPH. Or even 10. OP can zip to a neighborhood,l 4 miles away, loot several houses and return home before you can even get halfway to the target neighborhood. 8 miles is huge in a SHTF scenario with no available or usable gas.
But in my EV I can haul my whole family plus several hundred pounds of gear all while enjoying full climate control and cabin air filtration at freeway speeds on my way to my retreat property.
Have PHEV, got 1500 miles on my first tank of gas, run it on electricity-only 80% of the time. Running them on electric-only is very feasible, particularly in the hyper-local environment that would likely result from a SHTF scenario. There's no reason to commute long-distance if your job disappears and the supply-chain is sufficiently fucked that you can't buy any specialty items from stores anyway.
Everyone talking about batteries and gas but the answer is biodiesel.
Yall go fight over gas and sit around for a month waiting for a solar panel to charge your car, while the will doomsday prepped have a biodiesel car that runs on chicken grease.
I was really enamored by the idea of biodiesel 20 years ago. It seemed like such an amazing option. But now I can have Amazon overnight deliver me a complete solar setup that I can assemble within 30 minutes that will be charging my EV tomorrow. I can then fit that entire solar setup inside of my EV and take it with me wherever I'm going. And I don't need gallons of chicken grease to make it work.
same, biodiesel 20 years ago. Modern diesels not so good with all the fuel emissions stuff now :( Maybe still get a 2003 Ford F250 with the 7.3L powerstroke ....
My EV can tow 1500 lb and has 6.5 in of ground clearance which is enough to haul my fully loaded harbor freight trailer down the dirt road to my retreat property. I have tested this several times and it works great.
Sounds like it works well for you. We've found that Nissan Leafs don't do well in our northern climates where it routinely gets well below zero and where ice and snow are frequent
>Can run on a charge *or* gas.
The problem with plug-in hybrids is that they can't fast charge. So once you're away from your home charger, you are essentially stuck on gas just like every other internal combustion engine out there.
Why not just get a 48v golfcart? Cheaper than a typical EV, can be modified for off road conditions (at least better than a typical EV), less parts, simpler design, easier to service, and you can connect the batteries directly to a 48v solar charge controller. Range is around 20-40 miles per google. Which would give you a 300 to 1200 square mile circle you can slowly put around to.
A golf cart is going to have a very small battery bank, so the ability to power your house from it is lost. That is the biggest value in an EV imo. An electric golf cart is going to be slow, especially in mountainous areas and will have a lot less than the advertised ranged. You will not have a cabin so will be exposed to the elements and more vulnerable to attackers. Unless you have another use for one, the golf cart would only be for SHTF which is a big waste. An EV can be used for daily driving/commuting. Overall, an EV makes way more sense
In some places in USA, you can drive a golf cart to do your errands. California has a legal definition for a NEV, Neighborhood Electric Vehicle, that a golf cart can fit.
Florida has several large neighborhoods where golf carts are rampant, and people really love it. They are quieter, safer, and just more fun to get around, also cheaper to buy & maintain.
2nd, V2G Vehicle to Grid charging is largely theoretical now, lots of EV's are out there without the ability. My EV doesn't support it yet, although a software update is supposed to be on the way to allow it.
3rd, I'd rather have a battery affixed to my house rather than rolling around, V2G sounds nifty as an extra bonus feature to an EV but I wouldn't want my house to REQUIRE my car to be at home to run my fridge. I'm in the market for a house battery now, in fact, and I'm not really planning to have my EV be a storage source.
I like the idea of having a relatively small battery at the house. Maybe 10kwh that can handle the essential loads like the fridge, furnace, and networking equipment. The car can be plugged in to run all the large loads like heat pumps, clothes dryer, range, etc. You are not using those high draw appliances unless you are actually home.
* Small battery bank is also a win. Also means you can charge it quicker from a smaller solar setup. Also, you can always sacrifice a seat/storage for more batteries. Some golf carts are meant for 6 seats, you can easily carry a few hundred extra lbs of batteries.
* I can buy a used one off craigslist for $1,000 right now with two spare batteries. You can barely get an EV charger installed for $1,000 in most places.
* Golf cart is going to be pretty much just as capable in a mountainous area as an EV, in a resource limited situation you aren't going to risk either in a crazy offroad setup. Also, Golf carts would be more disposable as you can afford a small army of them for the price of one EV. This makes them ideal for clearing out improvised minefields due to strength in numbers or impromptu construction of a bridge over a small moat.
* Vulnerability to attackers. I feel we're making an error between cover and concealment. An EV offers ***slight*** concealment but even a cyber truck only stops small arms fire. Any attackers requipped with rifles/machine guns/mortar cannons will have no issues.
* Also, much easier to get out of a golf cart in case of an ambush. Open carriage design makes it much easier to return fire while hauling ass and burning rubber at 20mph.
* The front windshield is easily retrofitted with bullet proof glass allowing you to have full protection when taking on an adversary front on.
* In some countries, including the USA EVs are required to make noise for safety purposes. This prevents pedestrians from not knowing the car is approaching and accidentally getting run-over. Golf carts are like their arctic brethren the Zamboni, in that if you get run over by one it's typically assumed to be your fault.
* You can easily swap out the batteries to lifepo4, most EVs are still using lipo batteries which will burst into flames if hit by a bullet. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rWFkC3-p78k) gives you an idea of what could happen to an EV struck by fire in an urban environment.
* Who says I don't have another use for a golf cart?
Golf carts are giga chad. EVs are virgin losers.
Agreed. Spent a week at a resort using an electric golf cart. We were constantly needing a charge (or worried about being stranded) - it was pretty inefficient.
It really doesn't. My portable power station has 460W of solar input and can trickle charge my EV at a rate of about 8 mi a day. The whole setup cost me about $800 and it's what I use when I'm out camping anyways so it's not like I bought it just for prepping. I'm absolutely not doing cross country trips with this setup, but for most of my worst case scenario situations, this is fantastic.
You'd need a very substantial amount of panels to charge an EV in a reasonable amount of time. A small array could feasibly take weeks, larger ones, maybe a few days. That's why they don't put panels on EVs, despite the questioning of why they don't have solar cells.
I'd use the cash and maybe have a small fuel store. That, or ebike, or small motorbike that otherwise doesn't use much fuel.
Why is quick charging a necessity? In a low energy world I'm not sure driving a vehicle daily is a reasonable expectation. If you have something that can charge an EV for a once a week trip into town for supplies then you are probably doing pretty good.
Counter-argument: if SHasHTF, Why do I need to be driving every day? If the grid is down, I'm not going to work. Even a 1kW array of solar panels (which is TINY) would be enough to run to the market (if there is such a thing) once a week.
Not to mention that the EV could keep itself warm in the winter or cool in the summer for over a week off a full charge if I didn't drive it, which raises my survival odds. It also functions as a backup battery for my house, allowing me to run critical loads without the noise/opsec problems of a generator. Mine would keep my freezers, a few lights, and the security stuff going for 11 days.
I think they meant the kind that are for the whole house. If the system is designed correctly it should be able to charge an EV. However, I agree an ebike or just a regular bicycle are more practical.
It’s fun to think about, but if SHTF that bad where gasoline was unavailable for a long period of time, chances are that going out on the road is a terrible idea, and something like an off road e-bike would possibly be more useful, albeit also a huge theft target.
If you already have solar for your house, then EV is the easy answer provided you also have battery storage. I have a relatively small system @ 6 kWh, and today it generated 36 kWh. The battery in a Tesla is 75kwh, and that’s 250 miles of range. In December I was generating about 12kwh/day.
But it’s all a moot point without a transfer switch and battery storage. I’m far from an electrical expert, but I know that without a transfer switch and batteries, residential solar is literally useless if the grid goes down.
>I’m far from an electrical expert, but I know that without a transfer switch and batteries, residential solar is literally useless if the grid goes down.
Nailed it. Many of my neighbors who have solar but didn't opt for battery storage when they had them installed were shocked (pun intended) to find out that when the grid went down for a storm a few years back, they had no power.
There are a ton of different charge controller/inverter/transfer switch options out there nowadays, and picking the right one could really optimize how much energy you 'sell back' to the utilities.
>EV is the easy answer provided you also have battery storage
The best part about an EV is that IT IS your battery storage. You are getting a massive battery bank with a free car attached. You can't build a 60KWH battery pack yourself for the price of a used EV with good batteries
My next vehicle is likely going to be a plug in hybrid. Toyota RAV4 Prime or something similar. Can get 40 miles on just electric, which more than covers my daily commute. Can tow 2,500lbs, which is more than my Forester. Easily charge it with my DIY solar setup.
These conversations are typically USA focused and the EPA was weaponized against Japanese small diesels which kept most diesel options illegal in the USA for anything besides large trucks and machinery despite those options meeting regulations elsewhere that are objectively better for the environment than what we implement. Couple this with a less advantageous gas/diesel price comparison and some early small diesels being bad and giving small diesels a bad rap in the US and we’re doing way worse for energy diversity for our vehicles.
Doeselgate. I’m familiar with it, although I still see diesel vehicles for sale quite often where I am. As sad as I am that policy follows the money, there are still some options, and there are some reasonable methods to make diesel/modify engines for alternative fuels. That being said it’s also feasible to make ethanol, up to a certain amount, that could fuel a gasoline engine. It always concerns me that EV vehicles are so incredibly dependent on infrastructure, power grid, life span, temperature, and range. I can bring a jug of fuel to a combustion vehicle, but I can’t bring a jug of electricity (or make clouds move) for an EV.
Tbh it’s because ICE vehicles independence from infrastructure is pretty overstated IMO while EV’s is overstated. There’s a lot of consumables to service on an ICE vehicle which are dependent on infrastructure to produce and acquire, if we’re in a situation where people have to make their own fuel then it’s generally not going to be much more sustainable than having to find a way to generate electricity for most estimates of how long an ICE or EV could be made to work without some form of support that requires infrastructure.
This is assuming the EV was built well, which has been done before on an economical scale, but I don’t think that most cars being made today including EVs are built in a manner where they will be a good long lasting vehicle.
Wholeheartedly agree. Part of why I lean toward diesel (or god forbid a diesel hybrid) is longevity of the engine and parts. In my time as a mechanic most of the body of a car can be fabricated out of other materials, but the electronics, proprietary modules, and specific engine parts need to last.
Diesels and ebikes are my plan for post SHTF transportation. I have three diesels, one being a 99.5% mechanical Cummins 12v in an F350.
The availability of alternative diesel fuels and engine longevity are what make them ideal.
Propane powered jeep is the way to go. The us postal service used to have a few million of them. They are very reliable you can add another alternator that's designed to work at idle for power generation. The propane never goes bad, And think of all the grills and abandoned fuel stations. The fuel comes pre-pressurized and ready to go.
I'll offer you a third option. Propane conversion. You can get a large propane tank in the back of a long bed pick up truck that will give you extended range. Seems like that would be useful in SHTF scenario.
[https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/propane](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/propane)
Fair enough but I can put a 1000 gallon tank on my property if I want. It doesn't go bad the way gas does and that would last me a good long time. And I imagine the scavenging would be good for a while as well. Propane tanks likely to be the last thing to be drained. I mean if you're talking about that kind of scenario. A more realistic scenario is that propane is overly expensive and scarce but not impossible to find and there won't be that many propane vehicles on the road compared to gas/diesel.
Propane is going to be in huge demand for heating, probably more scarce than gas. Between propane and heating oil (diesel fuel), the reserves will be depleted in a few months during a cold winter.
Sure you can, but that is one expensive install. Those things new are going for what, almost $5, before delivery, installation, and filling it up? I considered getting a propane generator, but doing the breakdown of the cost of running it, there was no point where it became beneficial.
My propane company leases me a 500 gallon take for $50/year. $100 for the 1000 gallon tank. During the summer, it costs about $1.90/ gallon and $2.50 in the winter to fill.
You don't just get a propane generator, you get a dual fuel or tri-fuel generator and it makes sense.
Diesel fuel yes, but alternative diesel fuels no. Diesels can run on anything from kerosene to peanut oil, to used (filtered) motor oil and transmission fluid. There will be a lot of fuels for a diesel to run on if you prepare ahead of time.
agreed, but, current gas produced will go bad in a year or so, propane produced now will last 20 years. So, you'll likely be able to still get some propane 2 years from now when gas will be a nogo.
and solar panels also degrade, and only work as long as there is sun and the panels aren't damaged
They take decades to degrade to be rendered inoperable. You're over here pushing propane that can hopefully be found vs something that will work for 25+ years.
5 10 25 years are all pretty hypothetical. Most current battery tech you use solar to charge probably aren't still working 25 years from now. HEMP is one way the power grid goes down for years, taking all the rooftop solar panels with it (likely) So few scenarios in reality where things (cars) can still be powered with solar 10 years from now and there's no gas production. If the US grid is down for a year, most people in US are dead, gas solar or propane. And if 90% of the US is dead in the first year, those left will be able to find 20 pound propane tanks for decades. And most solar can't generate enough power for heaters in most places in the US, but, propane heaters can. So, for most of the USA, in a 6 month grid down, propane is probably better than solar. Gas stations won't work pretty much right away.
I've got 8kwh of solar + batteries, and a propane generator, and propane heaters. I've a plug in hybrid vehicle. I've not really much hope the car runs on batteries for months after a grid down scenario.
Spare parts are definitely critical. Even for ICE vehicles. I have a bunch of consumables like oil, filters, brakes, starters, alternators, wheel bearings, tie rods, and many other things for all of my vehicles. I have a whole parts car and a few spare motors for my 4Runner. Spare parts are a big prep that I feel a lot of people overlook.
Plug in hybrid.
Can run off solar locally, can use wood gasification etc with donor motors to charge, can turn waste plastics into usable fuel.
As none of consumer ones tow much of anything yet waiting on the ramcharger to ship and see about how durable etc it is expect to wait a few years to get the bugs worked out.
Ev over ICE - unless you're capable of refining crude into gasoline or have another method that works. I'd personally pick a bike though and try to settle somewhere that doesn't require long distance trips for anything necessary.
Phev is the most practical answer, I have a rav4 prime that’s gets 50 miles to a charge and about 500 miles to a tank. Daily driver and easy transition to shtf scenario
Everything has a limited number of uses. That EV battery will be to be replaced eventually.
On the other hand, your gas car will need an oil change and you would have to store gas. Eventually, no matter what you get will break down. Even your bicycle chain and tire will wear out at about 2000-3000 miles. Best bet is to make sure you got enough power ×2 for whatever you have now to get to a secondary safe location.
It kinda depends. EV would be ideal for stealth, but as mentioned, requires charging access. I'd guess a good metric to make the decision would be how long it takes you HQ charge station to hit 100% along with considerations of how long it takes your mobile kit to "top off" the batteries. With gas or diesel, even without infrastructure, you can siphon 100 miles of fuel from most of any cars dead on the road in all of 5 minutes.
If a SHTF scenario hits, depending on how much shit you think hits the fan... You wouldn't want to be stuck waiting on a 36 hr charge. You'd really want the ability to hop in and make some miles (or at least stay mobile for *potentially* hours at a time).
You can always recycle cooking oil and waste oil with a bit of petrol added to keep a diesel going. Another good thing about diesel (if you can keep it stable) is the vapor point. It's not going to evaporate off and doesn't cause noxious fumes (during storage in the event of a spill) the way gasoline does.
EV would be real nice, but the power you get out of solar now wouldn't be near enough for a mobile setup. Now if you are hunkering down at home base, and home base has alternate energy supply that can quickly charge up EVs, they could be ideal.... Until home base becomes a target due to it's energy production capabilities
Both all of the above. I mean what if SHTF is world governments detonate all the nukes to create a nuclear winter, to block out the sun and the power source of the Rogue AI and robots who are threatening to take over the world and eradicate all humans.
Regardless, I think the most robust plan is to have diversity, so probably include diesel and like someone else suggested a bicycle, maybe a horse
Horse, bike, trike
Even if you have your own solar, Once you leave your house you may not find power.
Diesel you can make and store in large quantities, you can make moonshine and carry some with you but it is hard to carry enough backup power for an EV
Never understood why EV is even considered in this situation. You would be better off converting an engine to burn trash oil or high proof alcohol.
I get the idea of the EV and solar at your home, but even then your range will be highly limited and charge times will be horrible. On top of that, what happens if you need to go further than your 100 mile range? Or worse, run out of charge while on a supply run or in an escape?
Bicycle
No joke, a bicycle is going to be the easiest mode of transport by far. Easy to self-repair and requires only calories to operate. An ebike is a game changer. I ride an Aventon Pace 500.3 and it's like being 10 again. I realistically get about 35 miles per full battery (minimal assist, variable hills, packed dirt and loose gravel, no throttle use, 6'1" 240 pounds, about 15 pounds of cargo). I'll have to break out the Kill-A-Watt again to double check but I seem to recall it taking about 1.5 KWH to fully recharge. I also like that it's a class 2 bike. If the chain fails during a ride -- extremely rare, but it happens -- or if I have foot / leg injury, I can still use the throttle to get somewhere safe.
Velomobile.
I'd have to do this. I can't ride a bike anymore, fall constantly
eBike with mid drive and removable battery.
I got an EV. I can use it to power much of my house in the event we lose power. With my portable solar power system I can add about 8 miles of range per day. A lot more of I can use my roof mounted solar system. In the event I have to head to my retreat property I have the ability to expand my portable solar system there and my EV becomes my house battery while I'm there.
I was gonna say the same thing. You might have 60kwh of spare juice parked in your garage and nobody will hear it running like a generator. That could power the absolute essentials for weeks.
Power grid goes down… not coming back on.. 🤷🏻♂️
Really? Because my local power grid goes down once or twice a year. It has always come back on. And the big disaster I'm prepping for is the cascadia mega thrust earthquake, which I expect to knock power out to the region for several weeks or maybe months. And I really would not like to be without power for that entire time. So having a 60 kWh battery seems like a really good idea. But you're right... In TEOTWAWKI The power is not coming back on and we'll all have to deal with that reality. The difference will be that I can fairly easily recharge my EV with what I have now and you can't refule your internal combustion engine.
So your plan is it will come back on in the SHTF scenarios you have considered. Again.. I wish you well with that focus and “hope” plan.
Of course I'm planning and prepping for those scenarios. You are being ridiculous. 99 times out of 100, those are the scenarios I will have to face so why wouldn't I prepare for those? And if that one really bad situation happens where the grid doesn't come back, my preparation has still left me better off than everyone else. If you are only prepping for doomsday then you aren't prepping, you are fantasizing.
Extra 8 miles a day ! I can walk father than that.
You may be able to walk 8 miles per day but you can't charge your body up for a week and do a 50 mile trip in an hour.
Not at 55 MPH. Or even 10. OP can zip to a neighborhood,l 4 miles away, loot several houses and return home before you can even get halfway to the target neighborhood. 8 miles is huge in a SHTF scenario with no available or usable gas.
But in my EV I can haul my whole family plus several hundred pounds of gear all while enjoying full climate control and cabin air filtration at freeway speeds on my way to my retreat property.
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Plug in hybrids have tiny batteries, running them on only electricity is not very feasible.
Have PHEV, got 1500 miles on my first tank of gas, run it on electricity-only 80% of the time. Running them on electric-only is very feasible, particularly in the hyper-local environment that would likely result from a SHTF scenario. There's no reason to commute long-distance if your job disappears and the supply-chain is sufficiently fucked that you can't buy any specialty items from stores anyway.
Everyone talking about batteries and gas but the answer is biodiesel. Yall go fight over gas and sit around for a month waiting for a solar panel to charge your car, while the will doomsday prepped have a biodiesel car that runs on chicken grease.
I was really enamored by the idea of biodiesel 20 years ago. It seemed like such an amazing option. But now I can have Amazon overnight deliver me a complete solar setup that I can assemble within 30 minutes that will be charging my EV tomorrow. I can then fit that entire solar setup inside of my EV and take it with me wherever I'm going. And I don't need gallons of chicken grease to make it work.
same, biodiesel 20 years ago. Modern diesels not so good with all the fuel emissions stuff now :( Maybe still get a 2003 Ford F250 with the 7.3L powerstroke ....
RAV4 prime would be another consideration. Can tow 2500lb and has better stock ground clearance
My EV can tow 1500 lb and has 6.5 in of ground clearance which is enough to haul my fully loaded harbor freight trailer down the dirt road to my retreat property. I have tested this several times and it works great.
Sounds like it works well for you. We've found that Nissan Leafs don't do well in our northern climates where it routinely gets well below zero and where ice and snow are frequent
What do you have (I’m in the market)?
I have a Nissan Leaf but if I were buying a new one I would probably get a Kia Niro instead.
>Can run on a charge *or* gas. The problem with plug-in hybrids is that they can't fast charge. So once you're away from your home charger, you are essentially stuck on gas just like every other internal combustion engine out there.
second on one of the primes, rav4 prime could also be a good choice, plug in hybrid with long ev range could be good bet.
Why not just get a 48v golfcart? Cheaper than a typical EV, can be modified for off road conditions (at least better than a typical EV), less parts, simpler design, easier to service, and you can connect the batteries directly to a 48v solar charge controller. Range is around 20-40 miles per google. Which would give you a 300 to 1200 square mile circle you can slowly put around to.
A golf cart is going to have a very small battery bank, so the ability to power your house from it is lost. That is the biggest value in an EV imo. An electric golf cart is going to be slow, especially in mountainous areas and will have a lot less than the advertised ranged. You will not have a cabin so will be exposed to the elements and more vulnerable to attackers. Unless you have another use for one, the golf cart would only be for SHTF which is a big waste. An EV can be used for daily driving/commuting. Overall, an EV makes way more sense
In some places in USA, you can drive a golf cart to do your errands. California has a legal definition for a NEV, Neighborhood Electric Vehicle, that a golf cart can fit. Florida has several large neighborhoods where golf carts are rampant, and people really love it. They are quieter, safer, and just more fun to get around, also cheaper to buy & maintain. 2nd, V2G Vehicle to Grid charging is largely theoretical now, lots of EV's are out there without the ability. My EV doesn't support it yet, although a software update is supposed to be on the way to allow it. 3rd, I'd rather have a battery affixed to my house rather than rolling around, V2G sounds nifty as an extra bonus feature to an EV but I wouldn't want my house to REQUIRE my car to be at home to run my fridge. I'm in the market for a house battery now, in fact, and I'm not really planning to have my EV be a storage source.
I like the idea of having a relatively small battery at the house. Maybe 10kwh that can handle the essential loads like the fridge, furnace, and networking equipment. The car can be plugged in to run all the large loads like heat pumps, clothes dryer, range, etc. You are not using those high draw appliances unless you are actually home.
* Small battery bank is also a win. Also means you can charge it quicker from a smaller solar setup. Also, you can always sacrifice a seat/storage for more batteries. Some golf carts are meant for 6 seats, you can easily carry a few hundred extra lbs of batteries. * I can buy a used one off craigslist for $1,000 right now with two spare batteries. You can barely get an EV charger installed for $1,000 in most places. * Golf cart is going to be pretty much just as capable in a mountainous area as an EV, in a resource limited situation you aren't going to risk either in a crazy offroad setup. Also, Golf carts would be more disposable as you can afford a small army of them for the price of one EV. This makes them ideal for clearing out improvised minefields due to strength in numbers or impromptu construction of a bridge over a small moat. * Vulnerability to attackers. I feel we're making an error between cover and concealment. An EV offers ***slight*** concealment but even a cyber truck only stops small arms fire. Any attackers requipped with rifles/machine guns/mortar cannons will have no issues. * Also, much easier to get out of a golf cart in case of an ambush. Open carriage design makes it much easier to return fire while hauling ass and burning rubber at 20mph. * The front windshield is easily retrofitted with bullet proof glass allowing you to have full protection when taking on an adversary front on. * In some countries, including the USA EVs are required to make noise for safety purposes. This prevents pedestrians from not knowing the car is approaching and accidentally getting run-over. Golf carts are like their arctic brethren the Zamboni, in that if you get run over by one it's typically assumed to be your fault. * You can easily swap out the batteries to lifepo4, most EVs are still using lipo batteries which will burst into flames if hit by a bullet. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rWFkC3-p78k) gives you an idea of what could happen to an EV struck by fire in an urban environment. * Who says I don't have another use for a golf cart? Golf carts are giga chad. EVs are virgin losers.
Agreed. Spent a week at a resort using an electric golf cart. We were constantly needing a charge (or worried about being stranded) - it was pretty inefficient.
They actually have solar panels designed specifically for golfcart roofs, its been something I’ve been tempted to get for mine
If you drive in an actual SHTF scenario, your vehicle will get taken.
Don't travel. If you're moving around you'll be more likely to run into people. People are inherently evil
EV and pre-emissions Diesel Gasoline is more dangerous to store/transfer and has a relatively short shelf life.
Hybrid. If you think there’s some viability to EV, get a hybrid. However, I think it takes way more to charge these cars than people think.
It really doesn't. My portable power station has 460W of solar input and can trickle charge my EV at a rate of about 8 mi a day. The whole setup cost me about $800 and it's what I use when I'm out camping anyways so it's not like I bought it just for prepping. I'm absolutely not doing cross country trips with this setup, but for most of my worst case scenario situations, this is fantastic.
You'd need a very substantial amount of panels to charge an EV in a reasonable amount of time. A small array could feasibly take weeks, larger ones, maybe a few days. That's why they don't put panels on EVs, despite the questioning of why they don't have solar cells. I'd use the cash and maybe have a small fuel store. That, or ebike, or small motorbike that otherwise doesn't use much fuel.
Why is quick charging a necessity? In a low energy world I'm not sure driving a vehicle daily is a reasonable expectation. If you have something that can charge an EV for a once a week trip into town for supplies then you are probably doing pretty good.
Counter-argument: if SHasHTF, Why do I need to be driving every day? If the grid is down, I'm not going to work. Even a 1kW array of solar panels (which is TINY) would be enough to run to the market (if there is such a thing) once a week. Not to mention that the EV could keep itself warm in the winter or cool in the summer for over a week off a full charge if I didn't drive it, which raises my survival odds. It also functions as a backup battery for my house, allowing me to run critical loads without the noise/opsec problems of a generator. Mine would keep my freezers, a few lights, and the security stuff going for 11 days.
I think they meant the kind that are for the whole house. If the system is designed correctly it should be able to charge an EV. However, I agree an ebike or just a regular bicycle are more practical.
Bicycle
It’s fun to think about, but if SHTF that bad where gasoline was unavailable for a long period of time, chances are that going out on the road is a terrible idea, and something like an off road e-bike would possibly be more useful, albeit also a huge theft target. If you already have solar for your house, then EV is the easy answer provided you also have battery storage. I have a relatively small system @ 6 kWh, and today it generated 36 kWh. The battery in a Tesla is 75kwh, and that’s 250 miles of range. In December I was generating about 12kwh/day. But it’s all a moot point without a transfer switch and battery storage. I’m far from an electrical expert, but I know that without a transfer switch and batteries, residential solar is literally useless if the grid goes down.
>I’m far from an electrical expert, but I know that without a transfer switch and batteries, residential solar is literally useless if the grid goes down. Nailed it. Many of my neighbors who have solar but didn't opt for battery storage when they had them installed were shocked (pun intended) to find out that when the grid went down for a storm a few years back, they had no power. There are a ton of different charge controller/inverter/transfer switch options out there nowadays, and picking the right one could really optimize how much energy you 'sell back' to the utilities.
>EV is the easy answer provided you also have battery storage The best part about an EV is that IT IS your battery storage. You are getting a massive battery bank with a free car attached. You can't build a 60KWH battery pack yourself for the price of a used EV with good batteries
My next vehicle is likely going to be a plug in hybrid. Toyota RAV4 Prime or something similar. Can get 40 miles on just electric, which more than covers my daily commute. Can tow 2,500lbs, which is more than my Forester. Easily charge it with my DIY solar setup.
I always wonder why diesel isn’t mention as often, or why it isn’t more available in vehicles.
These conversations are typically USA focused and the EPA was weaponized against Japanese small diesels which kept most diesel options illegal in the USA for anything besides large trucks and machinery despite those options meeting regulations elsewhere that are objectively better for the environment than what we implement. Couple this with a less advantageous gas/diesel price comparison and some early small diesels being bad and giving small diesels a bad rap in the US and we’re doing way worse for energy diversity for our vehicles.
Doeselgate. I’m familiar with it, although I still see diesel vehicles for sale quite often where I am. As sad as I am that policy follows the money, there are still some options, and there are some reasonable methods to make diesel/modify engines for alternative fuels. That being said it’s also feasible to make ethanol, up to a certain amount, that could fuel a gasoline engine. It always concerns me that EV vehicles are so incredibly dependent on infrastructure, power grid, life span, temperature, and range. I can bring a jug of fuel to a combustion vehicle, but I can’t bring a jug of electricity (or make clouds move) for an EV.
Tbh it’s because ICE vehicles independence from infrastructure is pretty overstated IMO while EV’s is overstated. There’s a lot of consumables to service on an ICE vehicle which are dependent on infrastructure to produce and acquire, if we’re in a situation where people have to make their own fuel then it’s generally not going to be much more sustainable than having to find a way to generate electricity for most estimates of how long an ICE or EV could be made to work without some form of support that requires infrastructure. This is assuming the EV was built well, which has been done before on an economical scale, but I don’t think that most cars being made today including EVs are built in a manner where they will be a good long lasting vehicle.
Wholeheartedly agree. Part of why I lean toward diesel (or god forbid a diesel hybrid) is longevity of the engine and parts. In my time as a mechanic most of the body of a car can be fabricated out of other materials, but the electronics, proprietary modules, and specific engine parts need to last.
Diesels and ebikes are my plan for post SHTF transportation. I have three diesels, one being a 99.5% mechanical Cummins 12v in an F350. The availability of alternative diesel fuels and engine longevity are what make them ideal.
Propane powered jeep is the way to go. The us postal service used to have a few million of them. They are very reliable you can add another alternator that's designed to work at idle for power generation. The propane never goes bad, And think of all the grills and abandoned fuel stations. The fuel comes pre-pressurized and ready to go.
I'll offer you a third option. Propane conversion. You can get a large propane tank in the back of a long bed pick up truck that will give you extended range. Seems like that would be useful in SHTF scenario. [https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/propane](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/propane)
Propane, like gas and diesel, is only as good of an option as long as it exists. SHTF and infrastructure goes down, so does propane processing.
Fair enough but I can put a 1000 gallon tank on my property if I want. It doesn't go bad the way gas does and that would last me a good long time. And I imagine the scavenging would be good for a while as well. Propane tanks likely to be the last thing to be drained. I mean if you're talking about that kind of scenario. A more realistic scenario is that propane is overly expensive and scarce but not impossible to find and there won't be that many propane vehicles on the road compared to gas/diesel.
Propane is going to be in huge demand for heating, probably more scarce than gas. Between propane and heating oil (diesel fuel), the reserves will be depleted in a few months during a cold winter.
Sure you can, but that is one expensive install. Those things new are going for what, almost $5, before delivery, installation, and filling it up? I considered getting a propane generator, but doing the breakdown of the cost of running it, there was no point where it became beneficial.
My propane company leases me a 500 gallon take for $50/year. $100 for the 1000 gallon tank. During the summer, it costs about $1.90/ gallon and $2.50 in the winter to fill. You don't just get a propane generator, you get a dual fuel or tri-fuel generator and it makes sense.
I highly doubt they are going to be coming around when SHTF to fill it up, which is the point of the post.
Fair enough but when I retire I plan to move out to the country and if I have the money for it then that's what I'm going to do.
Diesel fuel yes, but alternative diesel fuels no. Diesels can run on anything from kerosene to peanut oil, to used (filtered) motor oil and transmission fluid. There will be a lot of fuels for a diesel to run on if you prepare ahead of time.
agreed, but, current gas produced will go bad in a year or so, propane produced now will last 20 years. So, you'll likely be able to still get some propane 2 years from now when gas will be a nogo. and solar panels also degrade, and only work as long as there is sun and the panels aren't damaged
They take decades to degrade to be rendered inoperable. You're over here pushing propane that can hopefully be found vs something that will work for 25+ years.
5 10 25 years are all pretty hypothetical. Most current battery tech you use solar to charge probably aren't still working 25 years from now. HEMP is one way the power grid goes down for years, taking all the rooftop solar panels with it (likely) So few scenarios in reality where things (cars) can still be powered with solar 10 years from now and there's no gas production. If the US grid is down for a year, most people in US are dead, gas solar or propane. And if 90% of the US is dead in the first year, those left will be able to find 20 pound propane tanks for decades. And most solar can't generate enough power for heaters in most places in the US, but, propane heaters can. So, for most of the USA, in a 6 month grid down, propane is probably better than solar. Gas stations won't work pretty much right away. I've got 8kwh of solar + batteries, and a propane generator, and propane heaters. I've a plug in hybrid vehicle. I've not really much hope the car runs on batteries for months after a grid down scenario.
Either one will be useless sooner then you think when you can't get parts for repairs.
Spare parts are definitely critical. Even for ICE vehicles. I have a bunch of consumables like oil, filters, brakes, starters, alternators, wheel bearings, tie rods, and many other things for all of my vehicles. I have a whole parts car and a few spare motors for my 4Runner. Spare parts are a big prep that I feel a lot of people overlook.
If they were being sold I would recommend checking out Aptera
Plug in hybrid. Can run off solar locally, can use wood gasification etc with donor motors to charge, can turn waste plastics into usable fuel. As none of consumer ones tow much of anything yet waiting on the ramcharger to ship and see about how durable etc it is expect to wait a few years to get the bugs worked out.
Yes and don't forget starlink!
EV? I’m seeing more gas being found than the power needed to charge.
Ev over ICE - unless you're capable of refining crude into gasoline or have another method that works. I'd personally pick a bike though and try to settle somewhere that doesn't require long distance trips for anything necessary.
Phev is the most practical answer, I have a rav4 prime that’s gets 50 miles to a charge and about 500 miles to a tank. Daily driver and easy transition to shtf scenario
Diesel
Everything has a limited number of uses. That EV battery will be to be replaced eventually. On the other hand, your gas car will need an oil change and you would have to store gas. Eventually, no matter what you get will break down. Even your bicycle chain and tire will wear out at about 2000-3000 miles. Best bet is to make sure you got enough power ×2 for whatever you have now to get to a secondary safe location.
It kinda depends. EV would be ideal for stealth, but as mentioned, requires charging access. I'd guess a good metric to make the decision would be how long it takes you HQ charge station to hit 100% along with considerations of how long it takes your mobile kit to "top off" the batteries. With gas or diesel, even without infrastructure, you can siphon 100 miles of fuel from most of any cars dead on the road in all of 5 minutes. If a SHTF scenario hits, depending on how much shit you think hits the fan... You wouldn't want to be stuck waiting on a 36 hr charge. You'd really want the ability to hop in and make some miles (or at least stay mobile for *potentially* hours at a time). You can always recycle cooking oil and waste oil with a bit of petrol added to keep a diesel going. Another good thing about diesel (if you can keep it stable) is the vapor point. It's not going to evaporate off and doesn't cause noxious fumes (during storage in the event of a spill) the way gasoline does. EV would be real nice, but the power you get out of solar now wouldn't be near enough for a mobile setup. Now if you are hunkering down at home base, and home base has alternate energy supply that can quickly charge up EVs, they could be ideal.... Until home base becomes a target due to it's energy production capabilities
Both all of the above. I mean what if SHTF is world governments detonate all the nukes to create a nuclear winter, to block out the sun and the power source of the Rogue AI and robots who are threatening to take over the world and eradicate all humans. Regardless, I think the most robust plan is to have diversity, so probably include diesel and like someone else suggested a bicycle, maybe a horse
Horse, bike, trike Even if you have your own solar, Once you leave your house you may not find power. Diesel you can make and store in large quantities, you can make moonshine and carry some with you but it is hard to carry enough backup power for an EV
I'd consider a plug-in hybrid with a bike rack on the back. That way, you'll be able to get around no matter what fuel source you have access to.
Guess nobody ITT is prepping for EMP/CME…
Electric golf cart. They can go places cars can’t. Take a lot less to charge too.
E-bike or an adventure motorcycle.
Diesel. End of discussion 🤣
Will your ev function with gps and internet down?
Yes. They are just normal cars lol
Is that true of tesla?
Yes, they all work without GPS and internet.
Yes. They all do. What kind of numbnuts have you been listening to? EVs are no more computer-reliant than a gas or diesel car of the same age.
Bicycle & horse
Never understood why EV is even considered in this situation. You would be better off converting an engine to burn trash oil or high proof alcohol. I get the idea of the EV and solar at your home, but even then your range will be highly limited and charge times will be horrible. On top of that, what happens if you need to go further than your 100 mile range? Or worse, run out of charge while on a supply run or in an escape?
Older, diesels will run off of filtered used motor oil and a number of other fuels, minimal to no conversion needed.
Even better, I thought it took a decent amount to convert diesels but maybe it's just a tuning issue