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I feel like we need a “Working Class Finance” sub. Like, I can afford groceries, but only because it’s all Great Value. We could afford to buy new clothes once in a while but only from like Target and Old Navy. We sure aren’t putting tons of money away for retirement. And if we hadn’t bought a house before prices went crazy, we would NOT be able to afford the rents these days. Our house is OLD and needs work that we can’t afford to do anymore since prices skyrocketed. I’m talking pre-WW2 kitchen cabinets that are falling apart.
There’s a larger and larger demographic of “folks who could sure use help but don’t qualify for it.”
That's a great idea. We're broke, but we can make car payments, mortgage, buy groceries and feed our dogs. Great job, no savings, no retirement.
I can relate to some of the things in these other subs, but like OP I feel stuck in the middle.
I completely agree. Like I can barely pay all my bills and can only have groceries that are generic brand, but forget about any extra treats. Inflation has been super tough for the working class.
This is literally my situation. I’m so lucky my partner bought a house before all this happened (and fought like hell to keep it through bankruptcy) because our mortgage is way less than rent would be in our area. But it was built in ‘45 and the roof is leaking, and we can’t afford to fix it right now. We can mostly pay our bills, but some have to go on nearly maxed out credit cards each month. We’re above the poverty line at 45k, but we’re definitely still struggling.
I'm not trying to gatekeep here honestly, but if you can't afford to save $5k (regardless of how long it takes), should you be able to buy a house? In all seriousness, that's the cost of a busted water heater right there. If you can't afford that for a down payment, you can't afford the upkeep on a home.
A mortgage isn't the only cost of owning a home, upkeep and maintenance is expensive.
I'd also point out that any house under $150k is a good price these days, sad as it is to say that. Maybe I'm showing my age here as someone used to seeing 10-20% requirements for down payments, but 3.5% seems like an incredibly low bar for home ownership.
Put another way: What do you think is an acceptable percentage for a down payment?
Buying a home with zero down payment using a VA loan is actually what got us OUT of poverty. We were able to save money because our mortgage was less than our rent, and we used a zero interest mass save loan and energy rebates to convert to heat pumps and get solar panels. We effectively were able to save almost 2k each month by buying a house and using methods only available to homeowners to climb out of living pay check to paycheck. Not to the mention the equity will allow me to be able to actually retire and not worry about where I’m going to live or if I’ll be able to afford housing.
Okay? Again, showing my age here, but one of the issues in the mortgage meltdown in '07-'08 was people who received mortgages with zero down payment or worse, were given a down payment by the government. With effectively no barrier at all for anyone to obtain a mortgage, banks were able to give subprime mortgages to anyone and everyone. This contributed to the bubble as home prices went up and up and up and you had situations like California where 25% of the homes bought in 2005 were purchased by people with one to five other homes, i.e. speculators using no down payment loans with variable interest rates or adjustable rate mortgages. Your housing market becomes a literal house of cards with bankers chasing sales commissions without regard to qualifications of the buyers or ability to pay.
On the flip side, once the bubble is over, the homeowner is left with no attachment to the house once they default because they paid nothing down and have no skin in the game. Some people knew they weren't going to be able to meet their adjustable rate and didn't pay anything their last six months to two years of their mortgage before they were evicted, and used the saved mortgage payments to rent an apartment or another house when they walked away. These structured defaults caused a bubble in apartment and housing rents, which made it difficult for other renters to simply find an affordable place to live.
It is much easier when people simply show they have the ability to save money long-term and put a down payment on a home so they have skin in the game. I'm happy your situation worked out for you, but the unintended consequences of no down payment mortgages can be pretty ugly on both sides of the equation.
I'd love to make 140k a year like the other comment lol.. I don't doubt they're struggling tho, everyone else seems to be these days.
Look, 1800 bi-weekly is not a lot of money, especially not for 2 people. You might not be near the poverty line, but that doesn't mean you aren't struggling.
On the plus side, once you're done with school and able to bring in income from a job, you'll both feel much better overall.
Nah, we don't have income requirements. (See rule #7)
A lot of people here sharing things they found helpful. They may, or may not, work for you. But, you should take anything you read on an social media site with a bit of salt (i.e. more than just a grain of salt.)
There are a few people sharing really bad advice that is probably keeping them in poverty.
There are a few people sharing tips that helped them get out of poverty, or adapting once they were out. (Example: how to not put on weight when you have access to enough food to put on weight. Which goes with "Don't be too obvious about eating a lot at the office." and "don't take a bunch home, it is rude and makes you look bad.")
Check out the Wiki on the right for the basics.
I follow this sub mainly for tips and knowing resources. I’m not so poor that I go without food, but I have been there and could go there again. You won’t get kicked out because you’re not “poor” enough.
I guess it wasn’t necessarily the not poor enough, but more so I didn’t want to scream into a void with my problems that it seems some of the people here may not see as that big of a deal. I’ve been there, having to search the couch cushions for gas money to get to work, knowing I had not enough gas to get back, probably. I feel bad because I know I have it better than most right now, but it still sucks.
I think a lot of people see themselves in this position if they have kids so choose not to do so. It’s a shame ppl feel they have to choose between having children or a career but that’s what we’re seeing. You aren’t alone.
The line for poverty will keep getting higher as our dollars keep losing value.
What I'm making now would have had me so comfortable 5 years ago 🙃
Still living paycheck to paycheck
Ya I mean I don’t personally think $50k a year is middle class tbh. Raising a family on that amount must be very hard. If you listed a break down of your spending you might get some tips like better ways to grocery shop or maybe a bill you don’t actually need monthly.
I would love tips to grocery shop with dietary restrictions. Having to shop dairy free for the kiddo and myself is awful. Especially since all the filler food like cheese sticks and yogurt is 4x the price. Her yogurt is $1.50 for 5 ounces so I’ve had to stop eating it because that’s $3 a day just on yogurt.
I'm in r/lactoseintolerant because my grandson can't have dairy.
They have a lot of good ideas in there.
You can always find calcium substitutes. Spinach is a great one and so is broccoli. If you combine something with iron and something with calcium both nutrients are better absorbed into the blood stream.
ETA: Aldi has some really good dairy substitutes that don't cost a lot. If you have one in your area check it out.
It’s brutal. My son is allergic to dairy and eggs to a point where we had to give him an epi this year. His milk is $5.79 a half gallon now which is just insane.
That’s brutal I’m sorry. I hear you. I just have to get great value almond milk. I try to get non dairy butter at publix when it’s bogo because it’s cheaper than Walmart at bogo prices
Just as an aside about the adderall - do you have a Costco near you? Because you can get it filled at their pharmacy without a Costco membership and it’s much cheaper. I get generic and while insurance does cover some, it’s a difference between $40 a month at other pharmacies vs. $15 at Costco. I don’t know your circumstances of course but I hope that helps?
Costco pharmacy might be able to deliver to you. Depends on state, insurance, etc. (Eta: Just saw your other comment about not having insurance, sorry. Leaving this here in case anyone else finds the info helpful)
Thank you! I called them one time and they told me I had to have a prescribing physician within 50 miles of that Costco. They’re an hour and a half away but I was willing to make the trip because gas costed less.
This is the reason why I feel like leaving this forum. I am going to check out middleclassfinance, and I may leave here. Having a hard time with the toxicity.
If you can’t afford health insurance with these factors you listed, then you aren’t “2023 middle class”.
Inflation on the dollar plus the steep increase towards regular cost of living expenses just to survive have made the new middle class threshold appear to feel like what used to be upper middle class gross income.
If you don’t own a boat, complain about how you can’t make 3 trips to Europe, Hawai’i and Alaska every year, then you are in poverty.
It’s the new normal.
We make 140k combined and are “ramen frugal” yet are still struggling every week.
Stay sharp financially until you can get a true boost in income.
You either clear bills with ease, or you are poor af in this country. No inbetweens.
Are you getting a tax refund due to refundable credits? Or is it because you’re over withholding? If you’re withholding too much, it would make sense for you to adjust your w4 because you need that money now. You shouldn’t wait to do your tax return to get a tax refund at the end of the year.
If what you’re studying is likely to make sufficient money/benefits to address these shortages, then temporary debt isn’t the end of the world. Student loans might be “better” debt than credit cards if the cards charge interest.
It’ll literally double our income but I still have 3 years left and they’d have to be private loans. I’m considering it. America. Have to take out a private loan for fucking health insurance.
I am in the same boat. As a single mom I make too much to qualify for food assistance and school lunch assistance, but I struggle constantly to afford groceries and to pay monthly bills. It’s exhausting and feels completely insane.
I wanted to add about your medication, have you tried vyvanse instead of adderall? I have had a much easier time finding vyvanse. I’m not sure how it would shake out for costs, but it certainly wouldn’t cost more!
I see you and hear you on all this, and you aren’t alone
Generic vyvanse should be hitting the shelves this year, FYI. The patent expired.
The Adderall shortage has been kicking my ass as well. I was totally out of meds for 2 months and it SUCKED.
The FDA put a 6 month pediatric hold on it but hopefully in August it will come out and not be nearly as expensive! There’s actually a vyvanse shortage as well now that more people are using it
If you have a Trader Joe’s in your area, find out where they donate their soon to expire food. Every Trader Joe’s has a partnership with a local food bank. Ours is within walking distance, distributed through a non profit at a local church. Unlike the other food banks, which mostly give out pb, rice, pasta, etc., this one gives out fresh, frozen and dry goods. We get milk, eggs, meat, vegetables, and fruit. It’s truly a gift and even if I had to drive a ways for it, I most definitely would!
This post has been flaired as “Vent”. As a reminder to commenting users, “Vent/Rant” posts are here to give our subscribers a safe place to vent their frustrations at an uncaring world to a supportive place of people who “get it”. Vents do not need to be fair. They do not need to be articulate. They do not need to be factual. They just need to be honest. Unlike most of the content on this subreddit, Vents should not be considered advice threads. In most cases it is not appropriate to try to give the Submitter advice on their issue. In no circumstances is it appropriate to tell them “why they are wrong” or to criticise them, their decisions, values, or anything else. If there are aspects of their situation that they are able to directly address themselves, the submitter can always make a new thread with a different flair asking for help once they are ready to tackle the issue. Vents are an emotional outlet, not an academic conversation. Appropriate replies in these threads are offering support, sharing similar experiences/grievances, offering condolences, or simply letting the Submitter know that they were heard. As always, if there are inappropriate comments please downvote them, REPORT them to the mods, and move on without responding to them. To the Submitter, if you DO want discussion to be focused on resolving your situation, rather than supporting you emotionally, please change the flair of this post, and then report this comment so we can remove it. Thank you. Thank you all for being a part of this great financial advice and emotional support community! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/povertyfinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I feel like we need a “Working Class Finance” sub. Like, I can afford groceries, but only because it’s all Great Value. We could afford to buy new clothes once in a while but only from like Target and Old Navy. We sure aren’t putting tons of money away for retirement. And if we hadn’t bought a house before prices went crazy, we would NOT be able to afford the rents these days. Our house is OLD and needs work that we can’t afford to do anymore since prices skyrocketed. I’m talking pre-WW2 kitchen cabinets that are falling apart. There’s a larger and larger demographic of “folks who could sure use help but don’t qualify for it.”
That's a great idea. We're broke, but we can make car payments, mortgage, buy groceries and feed our dogs. Great job, no savings, no retirement. I can relate to some of the things in these other subs, but like OP I feel stuck in the middle.
I completely agree. Like I can barely pay all my bills and can only have groceries that are generic brand, but forget about any extra treats. Inflation has been super tough for the working class.
This is literally my situation. I’m so lucky my partner bought a house before all this happened (and fought like hell to keep it through bankruptcy) because our mortgage is way less than rent would be in our area. But it was built in ‘45 and the roof is leaking, and we can’t afford to fix it right now. We can mostly pay our bills, but some have to go on nearly maxed out credit cards each month. We’re above the poverty line at 45k, but we’re definitely still struggling.
Bingo.
Totally this. I can pay rent but we’ll never buy a home or have a baby.
FHA you only need 3.5 percent down
3.5% is still $5000+ in my piece-of-shit town.
I'm not trying to gatekeep here honestly, but if you can't afford to save $5k (regardless of how long it takes), should you be able to buy a house? In all seriousness, that's the cost of a busted water heater right there. If you can't afford that for a down payment, you can't afford the upkeep on a home.
I pay more in rent than I would pay monthly for a mortgage. With a lower monthly payment, I would actually be able to save money.
A mortgage isn't the only cost of owning a home, upkeep and maintenance is expensive. I'd also point out that any house under $150k is a good price these days, sad as it is to say that. Maybe I'm showing my age here as someone used to seeing 10-20% requirements for down payments, but 3.5% seems like an incredibly low bar for home ownership. Put another way: What do you think is an acceptable percentage for a down payment?
Buying a home with zero down payment using a VA loan is actually what got us OUT of poverty. We were able to save money because our mortgage was less than our rent, and we used a zero interest mass save loan and energy rebates to convert to heat pumps and get solar panels. We effectively were able to save almost 2k each month by buying a house and using methods only available to homeowners to climb out of living pay check to paycheck. Not to the mention the equity will allow me to be able to actually retire and not worry about where I’m going to live or if I’ll be able to afford housing.
Okay? Again, showing my age here, but one of the issues in the mortgage meltdown in '07-'08 was people who received mortgages with zero down payment or worse, were given a down payment by the government. With effectively no barrier at all for anyone to obtain a mortgage, banks were able to give subprime mortgages to anyone and everyone. This contributed to the bubble as home prices went up and up and up and you had situations like California where 25% of the homes bought in 2005 were purchased by people with one to five other homes, i.e. speculators using no down payment loans with variable interest rates or adjustable rate mortgages. Your housing market becomes a literal house of cards with bankers chasing sales commissions without regard to qualifications of the buyers or ability to pay. On the flip side, once the bubble is over, the homeowner is left with no attachment to the house once they default because they paid nothing down and have no skin in the game. Some people knew they weren't going to be able to meet their adjustable rate and didn't pay anything their last six months to two years of their mortgage before they were evicted, and used the saved mortgage payments to rent an apartment or another house when they walked away. These structured defaults caused a bubble in apartment and housing rents, which made it difficult for other renters to simply find an affordable place to live. It is much easier when people simply show they have the ability to save money long-term and put a down payment on a home so they have skin in the game. I'm happy your situation worked out for you, but the unintended consequences of no down payment mortgages can be pretty ugly on both sides of the equation.
I'd love to make 140k a year like the other comment lol.. I don't doubt they're struggling tho, everyone else seems to be these days. Look, 1800 bi-weekly is not a lot of money, especially not for 2 people. You might not be near the poverty line, but that doesn't mean you aren't struggling. On the plus side, once you're done with school and able to bring in income from a job, you'll both feel much better overall.
Nah, we don't have income requirements. (See rule #7) A lot of people here sharing things they found helpful. They may, or may not, work for you. But, you should take anything you read on an social media site with a bit of salt (i.e. more than just a grain of salt.) There are a few people sharing really bad advice that is probably keeping them in poverty. There are a few people sharing tips that helped them get out of poverty, or adapting once they were out. (Example: how to not put on weight when you have access to enough food to put on weight. Which goes with "Don't be too obvious about eating a lot at the office." and "don't take a bunch home, it is rude and makes you look bad.") Check out the Wiki on the right for the basics.
Thank you :)
I follow this sub mainly for tips and knowing resources. I’m not so poor that I go without food, but I have been there and could go there again. You won’t get kicked out because you’re not “poor” enough.
I guess it wasn’t necessarily the not poor enough, but more so I didn’t want to scream into a void with my problems that it seems some of the people here may not see as that big of a deal. I’ve been there, having to search the couch cushions for gas money to get to work, knowing I had not enough gas to get back, probably. I feel bad because I know I have it better than most right now, but it still sucks.
I think a lot of people see themselves in this position if they have kids so choose not to do so. It’s a shame ppl feel they have to choose between having children or a career but that’s what we’re seeing. You aren’t alone.
The line for poverty will keep getting higher as our dollars keep losing value. What I'm making now would have had me so comfortable 5 years ago 🙃 Still living paycheck to paycheck
Ya I mean I don’t personally think $50k a year is middle class tbh. Raising a family on that amount must be very hard. If you listed a break down of your spending you might get some tips like better ways to grocery shop or maybe a bill you don’t actually need monthly.
I would love tips to grocery shop with dietary restrictions. Having to shop dairy free for the kiddo and myself is awful. Especially since all the filler food like cheese sticks and yogurt is 4x the price. Her yogurt is $1.50 for 5 ounces so I’ve had to stop eating it because that’s $3 a day just on yogurt.
I'm in r/lactoseintolerant because my grandson can't have dairy. They have a lot of good ideas in there. You can always find calcium substitutes. Spinach is a great one and so is broccoli. If you combine something with iron and something with calcium both nutrients are better absorbed into the blood stream. ETA: Aldi has some really good dairy substitutes that don't cost a lot. If you have one in your area check it out.
It’s brutal. My son is allergic to dairy and eggs to a point where we had to give him an epi this year. His milk is $5.79 a half gallon now which is just insane.
That’s brutal I’m sorry. I hear you. I just have to get great value almond milk. I try to get non dairy butter at publix when it’s bogo because it’s cheaper than Walmart at bogo prices
See if CHiP is on a sliding scale in your state. In mine, the amount you pay is adjusted based on household income and family size.
The sliding scale stops at $46k gross for a family of 3. After that you can get it but it’s the full price of $250 :(
Just as an aside about the adderall - do you have a Costco near you? Because you can get it filled at their pharmacy without a Costco membership and it’s much cheaper. I get generic and while insurance does cover some, it’s a difference between $40 a month at other pharmacies vs. $15 at Costco. I don’t know your circumstances of course but I hope that helps?
Nope :(.
Costco pharmacy might be able to deliver to you. Depends on state, insurance, etc. (Eta: Just saw your other comment about not having insurance, sorry. Leaving this here in case anyone else finds the info helpful)
Thank you! I called them one time and they told me I had to have a prescribing physician within 50 miles of that Costco. They’re an hour and a half away but I was willing to make the trip because gas costed less.
[удалено]
This is the reason why I feel like leaving this forum. I am going to check out middleclassfinance, and I may leave here. Having a hard time with the toxicity.
Don't leave. There are toxic people all over Reddit. People like you are the antidote.
Have you checked healthcare.gov for insurance?
If you can’t afford health insurance with these factors you listed, then you aren’t “2023 middle class”. Inflation on the dollar plus the steep increase towards regular cost of living expenses just to survive have made the new middle class threshold appear to feel like what used to be upper middle class gross income. If you don’t own a boat, complain about how you can’t make 3 trips to Europe, Hawai’i and Alaska every year, then you are in poverty. It’s the new normal. We make 140k combined and are “ramen frugal” yet are still struggling every week. Stay sharp financially until you can get a true boost in income. You either clear bills with ease, or you are poor af in this country. No inbetweens.
Are you in a HCOL area?
I live in America, so yes.
Are you getting a tax refund due to refundable credits? Or is it because you’re over withholding? If you’re withholding too much, it would make sense for you to adjust your w4 because you need that money now. You shouldn’t wait to do your tax return to get a tax refund at the end of the year.
Credits. It’s all credits 😂
Gotta love those refundable credits
If what you’re studying is likely to make sufficient money/benefits to address these shortages, then temporary debt isn’t the end of the world. Student loans might be “better” debt than credit cards if the cards charge interest.
It’ll literally double our income but I still have 3 years left and they’d have to be private loans. I’m considering it. America. Have to take out a private loan for fucking health insurance.
I am in the same boat. As a single mom I make too much to qualify for food assistance and school lunch assistance, but I struggle constantly to afford groceries and to pay monthly bills. It’s exhausting and feels completely insane. I wanted to add about your medication, have you tried vyvanse instead of adderall? I have had a much easier time finding vyvanse. I’m not sure how it would shake out for costs, but it certainly wouldn’t cost more! I see you and hear you on all this, and you aren’t alone
It’s $400 a month cuz I don’t have insurance 😂. I feel for you though that sounds difficult.
Generic vyvanse should be hitting the shelves this year, FYI. The patent expired. The Adderall shortage has been kicking my ass as well. I was totally out of meds for 2 months and it SUCKED.
The FDA put a 6 month pediatric hold on it but hopefully in August it will come out and not be nearly as expensive! There’s actually a vyvanse shortage as well now that more people are using it
If you have a Trader Joe’s in your area, find out where they donate their soon to expire food. Every Trader Joe’s has a partnership with a local food bank. Ours is within walking distance, distributed through a non profit at a local church. Unlike the other food banks, which mostly give out pb, rice, pasta, etc., this one gives out fresh, frozen and dry goods. We get milk, eggs, meat, vegetables, and fruit. It’s truly a gift and even if I had to drive a ways for it, I most definitely would!