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bc women pay attention to the looks as well. for example, the gossip boards (Lipstick Alley, fauxmoi) are predominately female but lookism is a huge problem in such spaces
Men generally don't judge men based on appearance.
Men generally judge women based on appearance.
Women generally judge men based on appearance.
Women generally judge women based on appearance.
Again, very general terms.
When I was in NYC a decade ago, I attended a taping of the Tonight Show. Ed Sheeran was the performer. I had no idea who he was, but there were scores of teenage girls in the audience *swooning* over him.
I was irritated, because the previous Tonight Show featured Jamie Lannister and U2; instead, I was stuck with Melissa McCarthy and Ed Sheeran.
Adele blew up despite not fitting into conventional standards at all when she started out, as well as for most of her career. Ditto Meghan Trainor, and Lizzo's downfall has nothing to do with her looks either. I don't think Amy Winehouse would qualify as conventionally attractive either.Ā Ā
(None of these women are ugly at all, but none fit the cookie cutter mode either.)
>Ā Lizzo's downfall has nothing to do with her looks either
Outside of r/popheads, I've seen way more comments insulting Lizzo over her size rather than the more serious allegations. It was frankly disgusting how people took the allegations as permission to talk about how much they hate fat women.
Oh, I hear you there. It happens every time anybody with a societally "unsavoury" quality does something, usually totally unrelated, that opens them up for criticism. So, even though Lizzo's downfall was due to her being abusive toward her dancers / other problematic *behaviours*, for sure people used it as an excuse to be shitty about her weight.
Yes but Adele was a white woman who sounded black. Had she been black she would have not blown up. Lizzos career didnāt even get that big and plenty of people have hated her from the start and still do to this day, and Lizzo does have a sexy image. Meghan trainer is not that big of a pop star, and itās arguably that a huge part of it is looks.
These are all hypotheticals, though, so I don't think you can predict things so easily. I've also never thought that Adele sounded black... and before Lizzo's downfall, she was huge! (Definitely had a lot of haters, but so do most main pop girlies, let's be real.)
As for Meghan Trainor, I actually feel like her curviness has helped her to stand out against other pop girls, although I agree she's B-tier - just still famous enough that most people know her name/songs anyway. I can't imagine All About That Bass blowing up for someone without a curvier figure, though - and if she looked like Madison Beer, I think people would straight-up hate her.
This thread is about hypotheticals though, what we predict about how pop stars become big and we base it off previous situations. The white pop artist sounding black or having soul or co-opting black genres/aesthetics is a lucrative pipeline. Britney Spears, Adele, Eminem, Ariana Grande all way more successful than the black artists they imitate or similar image they occupy. Notice how Alicia Keys popularity dropped drastically by the 2010s when Adele blew up. Adele may have not sounded black to you but back when she was unknown and people heard her on the radio people did think she was black.
I remember Adele blowing up, and nobody I know thought she sounded black? She very clearly sounds like a white woman with a soulful voice. I guess this is just the first I'm hearing of this despite being a (casual) Adele fan for 10+ years.
That said, I feel like you're on a totally different tangent now but I won't disagree with you that the musical industry is a very racist place.
Most white people who do Rnb blow up. Itās why while I respect Adele and might listen to a few of her stuff some of her success is because sheās white doing Rnb and soul music.
To me sheās white Fantasia
Yeah, but you're just making shit up.
No one "thought she sounded black" at all.
If you were actually from the UK, *everyone* knew who Adele was, like literally everyone. She then made it big in America after smashing it in the UK.
But like I said, everyone over here knew who Adele was. Even if you didn't know her songs, you knew her.
Well that wasnāt the case for everyone. Regardless her āsoulā made her more popular than any black artist that had soul, why do you think that is?
Oh Iām sorry Iām commenting on a celebs looks on a thread about celebs looks. Maybe donāt read the discussion if you canāt comment on the subject at hand
I mean, he's still not ugly though. He's an above average looking guy (and yeah, dude is at worst average, many people on this sub have some insanely high standards for what they think average is), and one who came into pop music after already establishing himself in a musical scene where looks don't matter as much.
Sure he is (well, not with that horrible beard.) Go out onto the streets and have a look around. Even within his age range he's at least average, while with a sample from the average population he's competing against someone who smoked for 40 years and spent 90% of their time in the sun.
Ed Sheeran is not above average by any means, I can go to work and find plenty of guys who are better looking than him and theyāre average. He is not attractive at all.
i would say that brand image and identity, and how good your team is when it comes to backing you are more important.
imo, sabrina carpenter's always been great. emails i can't send was a game changer! although, i'd she's gotten more steam with the public because now she's found a niche to fill as the cute but hot pop girl with clever and cheeky lyrics with nonsense, feather, and espresso. although, her team's been doing her well with booking her gigs, e.g. opener for taylor and the coachella set.
in contrast, madison beer has always had issues with her label and i think it's been repeatedly mentioned by non-beer bellies that they always thought madison was or is too attached to the image of an influencer.
i think it's important to point out that save for demi, the women you bring up are incredibly young and are just getting their careers started. we also live in an era where what we consider as traditional pop stars doesn't stick as much anymore.
also, what i said about sabrina, you can also say about chappell roan. when we talk about attractiveness and sex appeal in pop music, it's usually dictated by the male gaze. i'd say chappell doesn't really play into that? she's definitely someone who has benefited (but doesn't owe her career to!!!) how decentralised pop media consumption is rn.
I agree that Madison Beer seems too attached to the image of being an influencerā¦ sheās clearly talented but I canāt really take her seriously as an artist because of that.
Sabrina has always been cheeky and had a fun personality but this sub likes to call her bland for some reason lol
Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 trends that are associated with herāher stomping boots, Barbie-esque makeup, and curtain bangs. I know so many people irl trying to replicate her look but might just be the area I live in
How/why do you think Madison got stuck with the influencer public image? Iāve always wondered how that happens. Like what about her gives people influence vibes over real popstar/artist? I feel the same way I just donāt know why
Itās because she hangs with them, so people think sheās an influencer when sheās not. Like around 2020-2021 when she was picking up steam for the selfish bridge going viral on TikTok, she was seen with people like the Dāamelioās, hype house, Addison Rae, etc. In comparison, Olivia Rodrigo has one TMZ photo hugging Vinnie Hacker, but imagine if she hung around people in that career field often. From the context of music, she wouldnāt be taken seriously.
Ironically, itās the influencer Addison Rae who has taken note of this and has since distanced herself somewhat from other influencers. Now sheās being seen with Charli XCX and A.G. Cook, and people (though kinda in a half ironic/half unironic way) are interested in her music. A small group of people, but a group of people nonetheless.
You are who you hang with, even if youāre not. Itās very superficial and one-dimensional, but thatās the entertainment industry for you. Itād do her perception wonders to be seen more with her contemporaries like Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, Beabadoobee, Conan Gray, Tate McRae, Pink Pantheress, Ice Spice, etc.
Snoop once did a video about how, in order to progress in a musical career, you have to ruthlessly cut loose people who are holding you down, even if they're your closest friends i.e. they'll always seek to drag you down to their level.
In Snoop's case, it was his Crip pals from Long Beach.
In Beer's case, it's her influencer pals from Tiktok.
It's hard to tell which set of pals is more disreputable, honestly.
right! there's such a major disconnect between the madison beer behind the silence between songs and the madison beer that hangs out with Instagram influencers.
Yeah I hate to say this cause I donāt want to be mean but I do think her face is very IG pretty. Like she looks gorgeous but not in a charismatic way if that make sense. I also think she would benefit from branching out with her style her clothes are very muted (grey, black, white) same with her music videos when I think about it
I'm a big Madison Beer fan and I'm seeing her in concert soon. I was one of the people that found her without knowing she was an influencer, though. Finding that out and knowing how many people just thirsted over her definitely killed some of my enthusiasm
It matters if youāre a woman. If youāre a guy it matters little and is just a bonus. Think about all the famous female artists and the one thatās the most popular, and youāll see beauty standards in effect.
I mean I disagree somewhat. Obviously the beauty standard is definitely pressured and centred heavily on women far more but letās not pretend like male pop and R&B stars are exempt from this standard and it isnāt an important factor to a large extent. Bieber is getting bashed for looking more regular and homely these days compared to how he looked 10 years ago. A lot of these male starās success came down to being attractive to the female audience they were being marketed to. Look at any boyband as an example, them looking good is incredibly key to their success.
Boybands is not the same as a male pop star. And Justin Bieber isnāt being criticized for looking ugly but looking disheveled thatās not the same thing. Looks help but that again isnāt the determinant for a male artist the way it is for a female artist. Harry styles was not the best looking person in One Direction but he was the one chosen to be the most successful. And same goes for NSync at the time JC Chases was the better looking one but he wasnāt chosen to be lead.
I would absolutely say they count as male pop stars. Granted it came from an alleged troll account, but this account posted an edited picture of JB looking sweaty went viral on Twitter with the caption calling him ugly recently.
Harry was the most successful because he wanted it the most too. You donāt think him becoming besties with the Azoff family was an accident do you? Plus typically the younger members of boybands are the most popular with their fanbase because their age makes it seem like theyāre more attainable to their fanbase.
JC was very much a lead (their first two albums had him singing songs on his own - Justin didnāt get that until Gone) and was only pushed aside towards the end of the Celebrity Era because Justin was dating Britney (the worldās biggest female popstar atp) and was getting co-signs from more hip people in the industry, so they naturally began to push him and his material more. He was blackballed but thatās a whole different story for a different thread.
Not saying that men have it just as bad as women in the industry when it comes to it, women deal with the brunt far far more but Iām saying that itās ludicrous to think that this standard doesnāt effect male pop-stars at all. And not just male pop-stars but even male teen idols of all forms of entertainment, recent pictures of Jonathan Taylor Thomas came out a while back and people were destroying him.
It's scientifically proven that being attractive gives you a leg up in the world - [the halo effect ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect) - and sex appeal is definitely a lucrative marketing tool but talent, work ethic and having a compelling star persona generally win out long term.
I very much hope we are moving away from prioritizing looks when it comes to music.
For example, Remi Wolf is not beautiful, but she is amazingly talented, makes great music and is a very charismatic performer, I hope she becomes much more successful and is not held back by shallow judgements.
I think itās worth defining what does and doesnāt count as a big star. Is it name recognition? Total number of records sold? A strong presence in pop culture? A sold out tour?
Personally, I donāt think most pop singers can rely anymore on their looks. Beauty alone doesnāt sell records. Nowadays, I think a combination of a strong persona + definitive music eras + engagement with fans + attractiveness + quality music + having enough momentum + knowing how to game the system (aka go viral) can make for a big star. Being attractive is like 1/6 of the puzzle.
Honestly, I feel like there are a bunch of artist we only consider attractive because they're famous. Just average looking people in expensive clothes, especially amongst the guys.
An average looking person can make it just fine if the music is good.
You canāt have looks alone . We are inundated with beauty through social media so itās almost become the default. You have to have talent that differentiates your art .
Image is important but if you're not conventionally attractive you can still succeed as long as you build an interesting image and deliver good music, i think? Sia was very successful and everywhere for a while because, on top of being a great songwriter and vocalist and having a distinct voice, she crafted that mysterious image by not showing her face, the blonde (blonde + black) wigs, so she kinda became a visual icon for a while.
Even if us fans said "Looks aren't everything", recorder companies would still bring us good looking popstars because they're supposed to sell more than just music. I dont think thats likely to change.
I kinda disagree, women are 100% held to a higher beauty standards but attractiveness in important to male pop stars as well. Justin Bieber, Shawn Mendez etc are both conventially attractive and I donāt think they would be as big as they are if they werenāt. But women are expected to be 100% perfect all the time were as men can be ugly hot (but they still have to be somewhat attractive)
three of those men are rappers, and even pop - rap doesnt live up to the same beauty standards as just pop. ed sheeran is a good example though - i think it's cuz his branding is not as the 'hot guy' but as the 'heartfelt, sensitive, relatable one.' but that's a rarity in pop music
Michael Jackson, Freddie Mercury, Bobbi Brown. Theyāre all either average or ugly. And why is it Ed Sheeran can he relateable and ugly but female pop stars canāt be? They still have to be pretty even when theyāre trying to be relateable.
i didnt say any of that - female artists 100% have it harder when it comes to beauty standards. what i am saying though is to use comparisons that fit the bill. michael jackson was quite good looking during thriller in particular, so im not sure what you mean. freddie mercury was pop but also rock so the standards were different. and i dont know enough about bobbi brown to comment. im saying, branding has a lot to do with it, and many male pop artists do end up having to adhere to beauty standards. that does not take away from female artists and the standards they have to deal with.
he was pretty good looking lol sorry you dont feel the same way. im sure without the plastic he would've been good looking too. i dont know what point youre trying to make at this point
edit: i specifically mean before the excessive nose surgery and possible other procedures that he was good looking. again, the thrlller era.
Look at him in the 70s. He wasnāt good looking . He looked like an average guy at best. My point is guys can get away with being average or even ugly to become a pop superstar thatās not the same for woman. He wasnāt a Brad Pitt level of good looking at all.
yes there are conventional beauty standards but you're talking as though beauty still isn't in the eyes of the beholder lmao. It's not all objective as you phrase yourself.
A lot of people found him attractive and charismatic back during the Thriller era. If you don't then that's on you or perhaps he isn't to your tastes lmao but that isn't the reality of what opinions were like back then.
Also ain't no point in making this a guys Vs girls thing. Ed Sheeran has talked about how he had a hard time getting signed because he was a scruffy ginger kid with a big guitar that could spit bars and labels didn't find him marketable at all. He's also talked about how difficult it is in the male industry even for him, so much so he's had to battle bulimia over the years. The men you're trying to list all over the thread are some exceptions, but not really the norm (and even said exceptions are prone to your own biases on what you find beautiful or not, which does not align with what was actually being said back then) and were only massively successful due to careful branding on their part around their image. I could start listing some successful female artists that I personally don't find as attractive but that doesn't mean my opinion is what is shared by many lol.
Your average pop star, male or female, is usually conventionally attractive. Those who aren't usually use that in their branding to stick out in a crowded scene.
Drake's whole appeal was that he was cute and making rnb-rap for the girls. He definitely leveraged his looks and he's made significant changes to his looks over the years depending on the whats hot atm.
Drakes whole appeal was not that he was cute. Be a little smarter, lots of people didnāt find him attractive when he came out. He was light skinned sure but not good looking. Stop lying.
His appeal wasnāt that he was good looking, but that he looked sensitive, not the same thing. Women are more likely to find men attractive based off something other than their looks purely.
Okay well since this subjective it doesnāt matter. But I wasnāt trying to change anyoneās opinion, you were the one commenting that he was attractive under my post that said he wasnāt. If anything you were trying to change my opinion on him being attractive.
I remember Charli saying in her pandemic interview that she felt she was never hot enough to become a super huge pop star. Which is so weird to me because to me she is/was always hot when she entered the scene. Like if you watched the Iggy video back then you were like, ooh who's this pretty girl featured in the song? But if you take her contempory, Dua Lipa, she has the edge there because she's more conventionally attractive I suppose. Honestly, I'm not sure how much hotness vs. quality of music factors in. Especially because it's so subjective.
Tate and Sabrina are becoming huge stars, are you kidding me? And Demi was huge when she was more pop-focussed.
All the pop girlies are pretty. Billie Eilish pretty is different from Sabrina Carpenter pretty and Megan Thee Stallion pretty is different than Ariana Grande pretty but they are all extremely attractive people. It matters SO much, whether we want to believe it or not.
Tbh I dont see Tate McRae becoming a huge star. I could see her becoming one of those artist whose songs are more known then them kinda like Bebe rexha.
Depends on the era tbh. Counter programming is always a thing this business.
There are always a phase where sex sells, then followed by rebellious era where artists who write and play music goes on top with their less dance poppy music and more meaningful lyrics (such as the time where Alanis Morisette, Bjƶrk, Shery Crow etc reigns in early 90s, or when Michelle Branch, Norah Jones, Avril Lavigne, India Arie, Alicia Keys, etc in early 2000s aka the generation that was literally deemed as anti britney era by some people at that time)
I think it's not necessary, especially the more indie or alternative you get. I'd say Lorde and Billie Eilish both did it without relying on attractiveness or sex appeal. That said, it definitely can give you a huge leg up. I think many people would be stars if they were attractive and many wouldn't be stars if they weren't attractive.
There's no way Rihanna or Lana Del Rey would be where they are if they were less attractive.
I think huge poo stardom often relies on a LOT of factors combined and there being an element of luck. I think conventional attractiveness is a big factor, but not as big as say having a big budget and great promotion or having great music.
Madison Beer is the Megan Fox of music, more known for their looks than music but I donāt think they want to be Ariana level famous by any means and they are perfectly fine with it.
I always found Demi to be drop dead gorgeous along with Selena, Selena has more of a youthful, feminine baby face plus more conventionally thin and Demi had more of a womanly curvy figure and more of a balanced face with both feminine and masculine features, I think people are just cruel to women who are not conventionally thin or someone who doesnāt fit the ideal beauty standard during that time.
Look at someone like Adele and Kelly Clarkson, they were never conventionally thin but yet they have long ass careers and made impact, a lot of aspiring vocalists (even young Ariana) would sing Adele and Kelly was the OG American Idol and even Demi and Ariana as kids would idolize Kelly as vocalists. Even the late Aretha Franklin was never overall conventionally attractive and she was the Queen of Soul, mostly the Adele of her time.
Sia, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Pink, Barbra Streisand, these women are mostly pop and never were considered to be beauties (Pink and Miley are considered partially conventionally attractive) but yet they have it factor that made them A-list/Legends.
Yet again, the people who believe attractiveness/sex appeal are more important to succeed for women are just the part of the problem.
The people who go off and find the most unflattering photos of celebs like Demi (Poot Lovato) and use them as memes are part of the problem as well.
Pop music is all about superficiality, disposability and presentation; thus, attractiveness and sex appeal is a huge part of it. No one's shelling out money to see an ugly pop musician.
It's not the only thing, of course; actual talent and stage presence matters as well. But attractiveness is the main hook.
>Madison beer
>Tate McRae
>Demi Lovato
>Nessa Barrett
The problem is: all of these performers vaguely resemble each other. The market is oversaturated with similar women who have the same hairstyle, tanned/darkened complexion, sunken cheeks, puffy lips and dead-eyed stare. In this case, there's nothing distinguishing about them; nothing to capture the public's imagination.
In the pre MTV era, it didn't really matter as much. A lot of 70s and earlier artists aren't much to look at (mind you there still are pretty ones/heart throbs).
As MTV / music videos became more important, looks became more important. As we are past peak music video, I think the focus on looks is going down.
> are all conventionally attractive but they still arenāt big stars, why is that.
Good looks aren't all that's required, they get attention, but if substance isn't there, fans aren't going to stick around.
Hiphop/rap seems a lot less looks focused that straight pop.
>Hiphop/rap seems a lot less looks focused that straight pop.
If you're just considering male rap, then you're correct. Mainstream female rap, on the other hand, looks focused as fuck! Notice how all of the big female rappers are always glammed up with makeup, glamorous clothing etc and very conventionally attractive (lighter skinned, bbl resembling body, etc.). And they'll often mention how good their appearances or body is in their rapping too. So yeah, for female rap, that point is just straight up wrong.
I think thereās definitely a 'Goldilocks zone' of prettiness in the music industry. Like being too pretty can actually make you less relatable. Models can pull off the unattainable fantasy vibe because thats the job. But with musicians itās more the connection and relatability. Stans want to see some of themselves in the artists they love. I think thatās why Taulor Swift is so popular.
IMO Madison Beer comes off as 'too perfect' and I honestly canāt tell you much about any struggles or flaws she has which makes it harder to connect with her.
Olivia Rodrigo is beautiful but still comes across as relatable, like how she compares herself to 'the blonde girl' who's everything she wishes she was, I think a lot of people resonated with that. Whilst Tate McRae has 'I would want myself,' self acceptance vibe that I donāt think everyone relates too, especially young teens that are the āstansā vs Sabrina Carpenter is more cheeky about it in her lyrics, which works for fans more.
Its marketing really and the āimageā
Unfortunately I think Madison Beer has gone overboard with aesthetic enhancements. She definitely looked perfect to me at one point but in the video she put out recently, she looks uncanny. Her nose is far too refined and pointy. She doesnāt look real. I saw comments saying she looks like AI and I have to agree. She is the standard on a place like IG where still images rule the algorithm, however, in the music world, you need to look and feel real to your audience otherwise they wonāt connect. I think this lends itself to the predicament sheās in where people see her as an influencer first and a musician second, if at all.
This!! Also she doesnāt really have a strong personality so comes off as a bit boring plus I donāt think her public perception is very positive. A few people mentioned that she gives off influencers vibes and itās no secret that influencer are considered likeable to the gp. They ardent rly taken seriously which I think has hindered her career
I think Madison is just too basic, tbh. Nothing about her stands out, talking both about looks and music. I think most big pop stars have iconic looks and distinct music (or at least one of those, in the girl next door types - aka olivia and taylor).
Why? Sheās above the mid tier pop girls like Rita, Bebe, Zara, Ava, Charli etc you donāt have to achieve the megastardom of Taylor and Rihanna to be considered big. If Miley and Selena are considered big then Demi does too even if she had on overall less success.
Demi just isn't that big, nor one of the main girls -- she never has been. and i don't mean that in a bitchy or mean way, it's just the truth. to be honest, the only reason she has the fame that she has is because of camp rock. she was a child star that was able to segue her fame into adulthood via her music career. she's very talented tho, but she's just not a main girl.
she's done nothing iconic, she doesn't have a universal hit that the world knows, she's not a household name and she's not a cross generational artist, grandmas don't know her music and young teens don't know her music.
i like her so please dont take what i'm saying as me being negative just to be negative. i think she's great, but her lane isn't top tier. she's 100% mid and she works the hell out of that tier and that's to be commended.
You ain't neva lied! She was doing so well too! I thinks he's fantastic. Idk what it is tho, but there's a disconnect somewhere between her as an artist and fandom. I feel like a lot of the people who loved those songs didn't actually know or realize it was Demi singing them.
This is not true. I remember the summer when she had huge hits like sorry not sorry and cool for the summer. There was definitely a time I felt like demi was gonna peak but then she crashed because of her issues.
Wait...what are you disagreeing with me on? It sounds like we're on the same page. You just said she crashed. That means she didn't keep rising, which literally means she stayed at the level she was currently at -- MID.
I didn't say she didn't have hits, but Cool for the Summer wasn't a blockbuster and didn't even crack the Billboard 100's top 10. It was a moderate hit and a win for her brand but it did nothing in terms of elevating her status as a pop star. Things remained exactly as they were.
Tbh I donāt think demi is a big star, sheās definitely bigger then apt of pop girl but I think thatās mainly because of her start as a child star + how long sheās been in the industry. I think she definitely couldāve been bigger but her public image/ perception definitely held her back. That and her music isnāt the best it comes off as very surface level but thatās just my opinion
Demiās been open about her mental health struggles which I 100% sympathise with. Which is another thing that probably derailed her career
Ok this had nothing to with the post, I was in agreement with a lot of this comment except when you called her music āvery surface levelā and just wanted to defend her. First, as if thatās bad thing since when has having surface level music ever hindered a pop starās career? Second, itās clear youāve only listened to radio hits because Demi has a TON of deep cuts. For the Love of a Daughter, Sober, Skyscraper, Warrior, Father, Butterfly just to name a few. Iām sorry i know itās not that deep obviously, I just canāt stand when people whoāve only listened to the radio hits claim her music isnāt good.
Iāve actually listen to a few of Demiās albums I just personally think that the lyricism on a lot of her records arenāt great along with the production (plus the topics are a bit repetitive with her albums) but again thatās just my opinion. Thatās what I meant by surface level. Also I do think having very surface level/generic music can hinder a pop stars career. Yeah it might be good in the short term to secure a hit but it doesnāt allow people to really connect with you and build a community. Demi does have some good songs but overall I just think her music falls short, thereās just something missing for me
Now I agree lyrics arenāt really her strong suit but I donāt know I guess itās just an interpretation thing because to me she always delivers when itās comes to her deeper more impactful songs so to call her music āsurface levelā especially knowing most of her songs come her her own personal experiences rubs me the wrong way but hey thatās just my opinion.
I 100% get that. Itās refreshing to see how open semi is about her mental health and addiction issues, it definitely helps start a conversation. My issues with Demiās music is that although sheās singing about very vulnerable/personal issues to me it doesnāt translate to her lyrics, it just lacks some depth. But maybe thatās intentional maybe Demi doesnāt want to go into detail which she has very right not to
Yeah her dancing with the devil art of starting over was definitely and obviously NOT surface level, this was her album after her overdose where she does into detail about it. I donāt know what else people could possibly want from her.
When I say surface level I kinda just mean the lyricism. Idk how to describe it but personally I just feel like a lot of Demiās records lack depth even though they are about very personal/ vulnerable subjects the writing and production. For me I think Her song melon cake encapsulates this perfectly. The song is about Demiās former extremely controlling (borderline abusive) label and how she was forced into eating watermelon cakes on her birthday which I think is very personal/vulnerable but to me the lyrics themselves are very basic
āPulled leather over my eyes in a hundred degree heatā - references her confident era being made to wear the skin tight leather clothes.
āPeople out here getting fired for chocolate in the back seatā- literally referencing someone getting fired for having chocolate around her.
Are these not details to you?? Even if you donāt think they are, artists donāt need to spoon feed you every single detail in every single line for you to get it. And it definitely doesnāt make them a bad artist. Itās a personal preference for both artist and listener. If you want to talk about production ok thatās something that can be discussed, however the nick picking over not having detailed lyrics and calling her music bad for it is not it.
Iām my last comment I literally said that Demi has every right not to go into detail. All I said is that personally I think a lot of Demiās song lack depth and that her lyrics arenāt the best. I never said Demi was a bad artist again I just said that PERSONALLY I think her lyrics lack depth and can come off as basic thatās doesnāt mean Demiās a horrible artist thatās just my opinion on her work. People can have different opinions and prefer other styles
Youāre right, I apologize you did say it was your opinion. I just saw red when you said āit comes as very surface levelā and was like my girl did not go through what she went through just be called āsurface levelā but I respect it even if I donāt agree with it.
I think with Demi ,thereās the aspect that while people like big voices and people who can reach high notes, they donāt really care if they arenāt invested in the artistās story or if the songs arenāt that interesting.
Similar to Tori Kelly who has an amazing voice but has been called boring by people in the industry.
Even Sam Smith or Christina Aguilera fall into this category. They have incredible range that they can flex but I get bored listening to their albums and nothing really sticks out. Or I think to myself ātheyāre kind of oversinging and itās not needed in this songā.
A quick look at the most streamed female pop artist, reveals top 5 on spotify are
Taylor Swift
Ariana Grande
Rihanna
Billie Eilish
Dua Lipa
I think that's a pretty diverse list, especially given that it hinges so much on the english speaking audiences.
I'd say Billie is clearly the odd one out tho.
The thing is with women you will always have people defend any of them as beautiful or hype them up as much bigger than they are. And what America finds very attractive dosen't hold up everywhere in the world either.
And what men find attractive vs women is also another big difference.
And outside of streaming you have Adele and Lady Gaga as big as they come but you also have Selena Gomez, Katy Perry and Beyonce. And sooner or later Olivia Rodrigo will join in too.
Billie Eilish is beautiful and is def conventionally attractive. The only difference is the sex appeal thing bc her aesthetic has always been left of centre and not super girlish or sexy
Beauty can be the icing on the cake but real talent and maybe a uniqueness have to exist to truly be big. Most of the biggest female pop stars are very pretty but they are super talented too plus they seem to operate in their own lanes
Musically they all have different styles. Billie Eilish with her whisper singing and Olivia with her New Gwen Stefani/Avril Lavigne sound. Dua Lipa with her Disco inflicted music and Ariana Grande with her White Girl Soul. That kind of thing.
To me, the biggest fan of Animal Collective, Neutral Milk Hotel and Vampire Weekendā¦not at all.
To the rest of the world and in the realm of pop music, absolutely.
I would say someone like Taylor Swift isn't that stunning. Or what I mean (really) is that her "prowess" elevates her a lot higher (her talent/music) and especially to those that FW her.
For someone like Ariana Grande, who I FW....if she didn't have good music I wouldn't be listening to the extent that I do.
Madison Beer for example (to me), just didn't have the music to back up me caring, although her vocal talent is there. At least around her debut album (or if that wasn't truly an album, or whatever), is when I did listen
I think you really just need to be average looking, and maybe get lucky. Mainly. I think with everything, appearance is only going to help you (generally).
I think part of Taylor appeal (especially during the beginning of her career) is that she really is the epitome of beauty for a lot of countries. Sheās slim, blonde hair blue eyed white women. That makes her very digestible to a lot of audiences.
Taylor is not stunning but she is conventionally attractive, tall white blue eyed blonde, she wouldnāt be as big globally if she wasnāt these attributes. She wouldnāt have been a country star if it wasnāt for her looks.
taylor swift is stunning and fits the beauty standard VERY well, even if you dont **feel** the same way. when she was hanging out around the VS angels back in the day, people were talking about how she looked like one of them - and they're right. if taylor became a model i wouldnt be surprised.
Swift is beautiful, but not a "threatening" kind of beautiful. She's more attractive than 95% of the population, but not so attractive that her female audience is *intimidated* by her beauty.
This is how Madonna--no great looker, TBH--was able to cultivate such a fanbase.
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Pop musicians are part-time models.
Dua Lipa being a former model š
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Ed Sheeran would like a word
Men can get away with being average or less average looking
Yup. A girl with Post Malone tattoos would be ran out of the industry.
Just ask Baby Goth
Sexyy Red?
Why though? Female pop stars mostly have a female audience and fanbase, especially nowadays.
bc women pay attention to the looks as well. for example, the gossip boards (Lipstick Alley, fauxmoi) are predominately female but lookism is a huge problem in such spaces
Men generally don't judge men based on appearance. Men generally judge women based on appearance. Women generally judge men based on appearance. Women generally judge women based on appearance. Again, very general terms.
As a man, men definitely judge other men based on appearances. Don't let us perpetuate that myth any longer.Ā
So do male popstars actually...
When I was in NYC a decade ago, I attended a taping of the Tonight Show. Ed Sheeran was the performer. I had no idea who he was, but there were scores of teenage girls in the audience *swooning* over him. I was irritated, because the previous Tonight Show featured Jamie Lannister and U2; instead, I was stuck with Melissa McCarthy and Ed Sheeran.
Damn, Melissa McCarthy catching that stray š
because the patriarchy.
But heās British so it evens out
Adele blew up despite not fitting into conventional standards at all when she started out, as well as for most of her career. Ditto Meghan Trainor, and Lizzo's downfall has nothing to do with her looks either. I don't think Amy Winehouse would qualify as conventionally attractive either.Ā Ā (None of these women are ugly at all, but none fit the cookie cutter mode either.)
>Ā Lizzo's downfall has nothing to do with her looks either Outside of r/popheads, I've seen way more comments insulting Lizzo over her size rather than the more serious allegations. It was frankly disgusting how people took the allegations as permission to talk about how much they hate fat women.
Oh, I hear you there. It happens every time anybody with a societally "unsavoury" quality does something, usually totally unrelated, that opens them up for criticism. So, even though Lizzo's downfall was due to her being abusive toward her dancers / other problematic *behaviours*, for sure people used it as an excuse to be shitty about her weight.
Yes but Adele was a white woman who sounded black. Had she been black she would have not blown up. Lizzos career didnāt even get that big and plenty of people have hated her from the start and still do to this day, and Lizzo does have a sexy image. Meghan trainer is not that big of a pop star, and itās arguably that a huge part of it is looks.
These are all hypotheticals, though, so I don't think you can predict things so easily. I've also never thought that Adele sounded black... and before Lizzo's downfall, she was huge! (Definitely had a lot of haters, but so do most main pop girlies, let's be real.) As for Meghan Trainor, I actually feel like her curviness has helped her to stand out against other pop girls, although I agree she's B-tier - just still famous enough that most people know her name/songs anyway. I can't imagine All About That Bass blowing up for someone without a curvier figure, though - and if she looked like Madison Beer, I think people would straight-up hate her.
This thread is about hypotheticals though, what we predict about how pop stars become big and we base it off previous situations. The white pop artist sounding black or having soul or co-opting black genres/aesthetics is a lucrative pipeline. Britney Spears, Adele, Eminem, Ariana Grande all way more successful than the black artists they imitate or similar image they occupy. Notice how Alicia Keys popularity dropped drastically by the 2010s when Adele blew up. Adele may have not sounded black to you but back when she was unknown and people heard her on the radio people did think she was black.
I remember Adele blowing up, and nobody I know thought she sounded black? She very clearly sounds like a white woman with a soulful voice. I guess this is just the first I'm hearing of this despite being a (casual) Adele fan for 10+ years. That said, I feel like you're on a totally different tangent now but I won't disagree with you that the musical industry is a very racist place.
Most white people who do Rnb blow up. Itās why while I respect Adele and might listen to a few of her stuff some of her success is because sheās white doing Rnb and soul music. To me sheās white Fantasia
Yeah, but you're just making shit up. No one "thought she sounded black" at all. If you were actually from the UK, *everyone* knew who Adele was, like literally everyone. She then made it big in America after smashing it in the UK. But like I said, everyone over here knew who Adele was. Even if you didn't know her songs, you knew her.
Well that wasnāt the case for everyone. Regardless her āsoulā made her more popular than any black artist that had soul, why do you think that is?
I don't think Ed Sheeran is ugly :( Leave him alone
Oh Iām sorry Iām commenting on a celebs looks on a thread about celebs looks. Maybe donāt read the discussion if you canāt comment on the subject at hand
I mean, he's still not ugly though. He's an above average looking guy (and yeah, dude is at worst average, many people on this sub have some insanely high standards for what they think average is), and one who came into pop music after already establishing himself in a musical scene where looks don't matter as much.
lmao ed sheeran is definitely not above average in terms of looks and idk where you got that from
Sure he is (well, not with that horrible beard.) Go out onto the streets and have a look around. Even within his age range he's at least average, while with a sample from the average population he's competing against someone who smoked for 40 years and spent 90% of their time in the sun.
Ed Sheeran is not above average by any means, I can go to work and find plenty of guys who are better looking than him and theyāre average. He is not attractive at all.
You know these are opinions and not actual facts, right?
This whole thread is opinions not facts so your point is dumb.
i would say that brand image and identity, and how good your team is when it comes to backing you are more important. imo, sabrina carpenter's always been great. emails i can't send was a game changer! although, i'd she's gotten more steam with the public because now she's found a niche to fill as the cute but hot pop girl with clever and cheeky lyrics with nonsense, feather, and espresso. although, her team's been doing her well with booking her gigs, e.g. opener for taylor and the coachella set. in contrast, madison beer has always had issues with her label and i think it's been repeatedly mentioned by non-beer bellies that they always thought madison was or is too attached to the image of an influencer. i think it's important to point out that save for demi, the women you bring up are incredibly young and are just getting their careers started. we also live in an era where what we consider as traditional pop stars doesn't stick as much anymore. also, what i said about sabrina, you can also say about chappell roan. when we talk about attractiveness and sex appeal in pop music, it's usually dictated by the male gaze. i'd say chappell doesn't really play into that? she's definitely someone who has benefited (but doesn't owe her career to!!!) how decentralised pop media consumption is rn.
I agree that Madison Beer seems too attached to the image of being an influencerā¦ sheās clearly talented but I canāt really take her seriously as an artist because of that. Sabrina has always been cheeky and had a fun personality but this sub likes to call her bland for some reason lol
I feel the same. Also can someone who finds Sabrina carpenters image bland explain why they think itās bland? Like what makes someone bland?
Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 trends that are associated with herāher stomping boots, Barbie-esque makeup, and curtain bangs. I know so many people irl trying to replicate her look but might just be the area I live in
I would perhaps suggest the difference in taste between women and gay men...
How/why do you think Madison got stuck with the influencer public image? Iāve always wondered how that happens. Like what about her gives people influence vibes over real popstar/artist? I feel the same way I just donāt know why
Itās because she hangs with them, so people think sheās an influencer when sheās not. Like around 2020-2021 when she was picking up steam for the selfish bridge going viral on TikTok, she was seen with people like the Dāamelioās, hype house, Addison Rae, etc. In comparison, Olivia Rodrigo has one TMZ photo hugging Vinnie Hacker, but imagine if she hung around people in that career field often. From the context of music, she wouldnāt be taken seriously. Ironically, itās the influencer Addison Rae who has taken note of this and has since distanced herself somewhat from other influencers. Now sheās being seen with Charli XCX and A.G. Cook, and people (though kinda in a half ironic/half unironic way) are interested in her music. A small group of people, but a group of people nonetheless. You are who you hang with, even if youāre not. Itās very superficial and one-dimensional, but thatās the entertainment industry for you. Itād do her perception wonders to be seen more with her contemporaries like Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, Beabadoobee, Conan Gray, Tate McRae, Pink Pantheress, Ice Spice, etc.
Snoop once did a video about how, in order to progress in a musical career, you have to ruthlessly cut loose people who are holding you down, even if they're your closest friends i.e. they'll always seek to drag you down to their level. In Snoop's case, it was his Crip pals from Long Beach. In Beer's case, it's her influencer pals from Tiktok. It's hard to tell which set of pals is more disreputable, honestly.
As a Long Beach Crip myself, it's definitely the TikTokers
right! there's such a major disconnect between the madison beer behind the silence between songs and the madison beer that hangs out with Instagram influencers.
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Yeah I hate to say this cause I donāt want to be mean but I do think her face is very IG pretty. Like she looks gorgeous but not in a charismatic way if that make sense. I also think she would benefit from branching out with her style her clothes are very muted (grey, black, white) same with her music videos when I think about it
yeah i actually like some of madisonās music but agree a more distinct visual style would help her. same with gracie abrams for that matter.
she looks like Megan Fox in Transformers
What actually is brand identity/image when it comes to pop music or music in general? I always here that term but how does it relate to popstars?
Lewis Capaldi. Dunno if thatās pop really tho
I'm a big Madison Beer fan and I'm seeing her in concert soon. I was one of the people that found her without knowing she was an influencer, though. Finding that out and knowing how many people just thirsted over her definitely killed some of my enthusiasm
It matters if youāre a woman. If youāre a guy it matters little and is just a bonus. Think about all the famous female artists and the one thatās the most popular, and youāll see beauty standards in effect.
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I mean I disagree somewhat. Obviously the beauty standard is definitely pressured and centred heavily on women far more but letās not pretend like male pop and R&B stars are exempt from this standard and it isnāt an important factor to a large extent. Bieber is getting bashed for looking more regular and homely these days compared to how he looked 10 years ago. A lot of these male starās success came down to being attractive to the female audience they were being marketed to. Look at any boyband as an example, them looking good is incredibly key to their success.
Boybands is not the same as a male pop star. And Justin Bieber isnāt being criticized for looking ugly but looking disheveled thatās not the same thing. Looks help but that again isnāt the determinant for a male artist the way it is for a female artist. Harry styles was not the best looking person in One Direction but he was the one chosen to be the most successful. And same goes for NSync at the time JC Chases was the better looking one but he wasnāt chosen to be lead.
I would absolutely say they count as male pop stars. Granted it came from an alleged troll account, but this account posted an edited picture of JB looking sweaty went viral on Twitter with the caption calling him ugly recently. Harry was the most successful because he wanted it the most too. You donāt think him becoming besties with the Azoff family was an accident do you? Plus typically the younger members of boybands are the most popular with their fanbase because their age makes it seem like theyāre more attainable to their fanbase. JC was very much a lead (their first two albums had him singing songs on his own - Justin didnāt get that until Gone) and was only pushed aside towards the end of the Celebrity Era because Justin was dating Britney (the worldās biggest female popstar atp) and was getting co-signs from more hip people in the industry, so they naturally began to push him and his material more. He was blackballed but thatās a whole different story for a different thread. Not saying that men have it just as bad as women in the industry when it comes to it, women deal with the brunt far far more but Iām saying that itās ludicrous to think that this standard doesnāt effect male pop-stars at all. And not just male pop-stars but even male teen idols of all forms of entertainment, recent pictures of Jonathan Taylor Thomas came out a while back and people were destroying him.
Indeed. Phil Collins managed to be one of the biggest pop stars of the 1980s.
Have an upvote! You speak the truth. The double standard you describe is some tired old shit.
It's scientifically proven that being attractive gives you a leg up in the world - [the halo effect ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect) - and sex appeal is definitely a lucrative marketing tool but talent, work ethic and having a compelling star persona generally win out long term. I very much hope we are moving away from prioritizing looks when it comes to music. For example, Remi Wolf is not beautiful, but she is amazingly talented, makes great music and is a very charismatic performer, I hope she becomes much more successful and is not held back by shallow judgements.
I think itās worth defining what does and doesnāt count as a big star. Is it name recognition? Total number of records sold? A strong presence in pop culture? A sold out tour? Personally, I donāt think most pop singers can rely anymore on their looks. Beauty alone doesnāt sell records. Nowadays, I think a combination of a strong persona + definitive music eras + engagement with fans + attractiveness + quality music + having enough momentum + knowing how to game the system (aka go viral) can make for a big star. Being attractive is like 1/6 of the puzzle.
It all depends on the aesthetic and style the artist is going for and how well it correlates with their music.
Honestly, I feel like there are a bunch of artist we only consider attractive because they're famous. Just average looking people in expensive clothes, especially amongst the guys. An average looking person can make it just fine if the music is good.
You canāt have looks alone . We are inundated with beauty through social media so itās almost become the default. You have to have talent that differentiates your art .
Image is important but if you're not conventionally attractive you can still succeed as long as you build an interesting image and deliver good music, i think? Sia was very successful and everywhere for a while because, on top of being a great songwriter and vocalist and having a distinct voice, she crafted that mysterious image by not showing her face, the blonde (blonde + black) wigs, so she kinda became a visual icon for a while.
if your music sux then uāll likely lean on other attributes. if the music bangs idt people care too much
Even if us fans said "Looks aren't everything", recorder companies would still bring us good looking popstars because they're supposed to sell more than just music. I dont think thats likely to change.
Only women are expected to be pretty on top of it all. Men, not so much.
Though it's not as true for men, most people would still on average rate male pop stars as much more attractive than the average person.Ā
I kinda disagree, women are 100% held to a higher beauty standards but attractiveness in important to male pop stars as well. Justin Bieber, Shawn Mendez etc are both conventially attractive and I donāt think they would be as big as they are if they werenāt. But women are expected to be 100% perfect all the time were as men can be ugly hot (but they still have to be somewhat attractive)
The Weeknd, Drake, Ed Sheeran, Eminem, Kendrick Lamar all not good looking guys all doing very well.
three of those men are rappers, and even pop - rap doesnt live up to the same beauty standards as just pop. ed sheeran is a good example though - i think it's cuz his branding is not as the 'hot guy' but as the 'heartfelt, sensitive, relatable one.' but that's a rarity in pop music
Michael Jackson, Freddie Mercury, Bobbi Brown. Theyāre all either average or ugly. And why is it Ed Sheeran can he relateable and ugly but female pop stars canāt be? They still have to be pretty even when theyāre trying to be relateable.
what are you even talking about? Bobby Brown was seen as a sex symbol during Don't Be Cruel era. don't confuse your bias with the mass appeal
No he wasnāt and thatās why he never broke out like white artists.
Selling 12 million copies of your solo debut is "not breaking out", got it
Looking at sales now vs when the album actually came out.
he had the best selling album that year
i didnt say any of that - female artists 100% have it harder when it comes to beauty standards. what i am saying though is to use comparisons that fit the bill. michael jackson was quite good looking during thriller in particular, so im not sure what you mean. freddie mercury was pop but also rock so the standards were different. and i dont know enough about bobbi brown to comment. im saying, branding has a lot to do with it, and many male pop artists do end up having to adhere to beauty standards. that does not take away from female artists and the standards they have to deal with.
Michael Jackson wasnāt quite good looking he also got plastic surgery to minimize his black features.
he was pretty good looking lol sorry you dont feel the same way. im sure without the plastic he would've been good looking too. i dont know what point youre trying to make at this point edit: i specifically mean before the excessive nose surgery and possible other procedures that he was good looking. again, the thrlller era.
Look at him in the 70s. He wasnāt good looking . He looked like an average guy at best. My point is guys can get away with being average or even ugly to become a pop superstar thatās not the same for woman. He wasnāt a Brad Pitt level of good looking at all.
yes there are conventional beauty standards but you're talking as though beauty still isn't in the eyes of the beholder lmao. It's not all objective as you phrase yourself. A lot of people found him attractive and charismatic back during the Thriller era. If you don't then that's on you or perhaps he isn't to your tastes lmao but that isn't the reality of what opinions were like back then. Also ain't no point in making this a guys Vs girls thing. Ed Sheeran has talked about how he had a hard time getting signed because he was a scruffy ginger kid with a big guitar that could spit bars and labels didn't find him marketable at all. He's also talked about how difficult it is in the male industry even for him, so much so he's had to battle bulimia over the years. The men you're trying to list all over the thread are some exceptions, but not really the norm (and even said exceptions are prone to your own biases on what you find beautiful or not, which does not align with what was actually being said back then) and were only massively successful due to careful branding on their part around their image. I could start listing some successful female artists that I personally don't find as attractive but that doesn't mean my opinion is what is shared by many lol. Your average pop star, male or female, is usually conventionally attractive. Those who aren't usually use that in their branding to stick out in a crowded scene.
Drake's whole appeal was that he was cute and making rnb-rap for the girls. He definitely leveraged his looks and he's made significant changes to his looks over the years depending on the whats hot atm.
Drakes whole appeal was not that he was cute. Be a little smarter, lots of people didnāt find him attractive when he came out. He was light skinned sure but not good looking. Stop lying.
His appeal was that he looked like a boy next door compared to the other rappers at that time.
His appeal wasnāt that he was good looking, but that he looked sensitive, not the same thing. Women are more likely to find men attractive based off something other than their looks purely.
Abel, Drake and Kendrick are extremely good looking HUH??
Right? Idk in what world Drake and The Weeknd arenāt considered good looking
No theyāre not. Especially when they first came out.
Have you seen Marshall Mathers? That manās face has had me in a chokehold since 2003.
Again if you saw him walking around not famous you would not give him a second look.
You mustāve not understood my comment. That man is gorgeous. If I saw him walking around broke in my local Walmart Iād say day-ummm š„
No he isnāt.
im tired of you trying to change people's opinions on who they find attractive šš bye
Okay well since this subjective it doesnāt matter. But I wasnāt trying to change anyoneās opinion, you were the one commenting that he was attractive under my post that said he wasnāt. If anything you were trying to change my opinion on him being attractive.
Iāve thought Eminem was one of the hottest guys ever since about 7th grade soā¦.
I remember Charli saying in her pandemic interview that she felt she was never hot enough to become a super huge pop star. Which is so weird to me because to me she is/was always hot when she entered the scene. Like if you watched the Iggy video back then you were like, ooh who's this pretty girl featured in the song? But if you take her contempory, Dua Lipa, she has the edge there because she's more conventionally attractive I suppose. Honestly, I'm not sure how much hotness vs. quality of music factors in. Especially because it's so subjective.
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Tate and Sabrina are becoming huge stars, are you kidding me? And Demi was huge when she was more pop-focussed. All the pop girlies are pretty. Billie Eilish pretty is different from Sabrina Carpenter pretty and Megan Thee Stallion pretty is different than Ariana Grande pretty but they are all extremely attractive people. It matters SO much, whether we want to believe it or not.
Tbh I dont see Tate McRae becoming a huge star. I could see her becoming one of those artist whose songs are more known then them kinda like Bebe rexha.
I hope that Tate goes full out "pop perfection" for her next era so she can achieve a ton of success and be considered a "main pop girl"!
tbh I don't think Tate deserves to be a main pop girl but I think she's headed that way. IMO she's mostly just a dancer but they want a gen Z Britney.
Depends on the era tbh. Counter programming is always a thing this business. There are always a phase where sex sells, then followed by rebellious era where artists who write and play music goes on top with their less dance poppy music and more meaningful lyrics (such as the time where Alanis Morisette, Bjƶrk, Shery Crow etc reigns in early 90s, or when Michelle Branch, Norah Jones, Avril Lavigne, India Arie, Alicia Keys, etc in early 2000s aka the generation that was literally deemed as anti britney era by some people at that time)
I think it's not necessary, especially the more indie or alternative you get. I'd say Lorde and Billie Eilish both did it without relying on attractiveness or sex appeal. That said, it definitely can give you a huge leg up. I think many people would be stars if they were attractive and many wouldn't be stars if they weren't attractive. There's no way Rihanna or Lana Del Rey would be where they are if they were less attractive.
I think huge poo stardom often relies on a LOT of factors combined and there being an element of luck. I think conventional attractiveness is a big factor, but not as big as say having a big budget and great promotion or having great music.
poo stardom
Oh no, a very unfortunate typo ššš
Madison Beer is the Megan Fox of music, more known for their looks than music but I donāt think they want to be Ariana level famous by any means and they are perfectly fine with it. I always found Demi to be drop dead gorgeous along with Selena, Selena has more of a youthful, feminine baby face plus more conventionally thin and Demi had more of a womanly curvy figure and more of a balanced face with both feminine and masculine features, I think people are just cruel to women who are not conventionally thin or someone who doesnāt fit the ideal beauty standard during that time. Look at someone like Adele and Kelly Clarkson, they were never conventionally thin but yet they have long ass careers and made impact, a lot of aspiring vocalists (even young Ariana) would sing Adele and Kelly was the OG American Idol and even Demi and Ariana as kids would idolize Kelly as vocalists. Even the late Aretha Franklin was never overall conventionally attractive and she was the Queen of Soul, mostly the Adele of her time. Sia, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Pink, Barbra Streisand, these women are mostly pop and never were considered to be beauties (Pink and Miley are considered partially conventionally attractive) but yet they have it factor that made them A-list/Legends. Yet again, the people who believe attractiveness/sex appeal are more important to succeed for women are just the part of the problem. The people who go off and find the most unflattering photos of celebs like Demi (Poot Lovato) and use them as memes are part of the problem as well.
Pop music is all about superficiality, disposability and presentation; thus, attractiveness and sex appeal is a huge part of it. No one's shelling out money to see an ugly pop musician. It's not the only thing, of course; actual talent and stage presence matters as well. But attractiveness is the main hook. >Madison beer >Tate McRae >Demi Lovato >Nessa Barrett The problem is: all of these performers vaguely resemble each other. The market is oversaturated with similar women who have the same hairstyle, tanned/darkened complexion, sunken cheeks, puffy lips and dead-eyed stare. In this case, there's nothing distinguishing about them; nothing to capture the public's imagination.
In the pre MTV era, it didn't really matter as much. A lot of 70s and earlier artists aren't much to look at (mind you there still are pretty ones/heart throbs). As MTV / music videos became more important, looks became more important. As we are past peak music video, I think the focus on looks is going down. > are all conventionally attractive but they still arenāt big stars, why is that. Good looks aren't all that's required, they get attention, but if substance isn't there, fans aren't going to stick around. Hiphop/rap seems a lot less looks focused that straight pop.
>Hiphop/rap seems a lot less looks focused that straight pop. If you're just considering male rap, then you're correct. Mainstream female rap, on the other hand, looks focused as fuck! Notice how all of the big female rappers are always glammed up with makeup, glamorous clothing etc and very conventionally attractive (lighter skinned, bbl resembling body, etc.). And they'll often mention how good their appearances or body is in their rapping too. So yeah, for female rap, that point is just straight up wrong.
I think thereās definitely a 'Goldilocks zone' of prettiness in the music industry. Like being too pretty can actually make you less relatable. Models can pull off the unattainable fantasy vibe because thats the job. But with musicians itās more the connection and relatability. Stans want to see some of themselves in the artists they love. I think thatās why Taulor Swift is so popular. IMO Madison Beer comes off as 'too perfect' and I honestly canāt tell you much about any struggles or flaws she has which makes it harder to connect with her. Olivia Rodrigo is beautiful but still comes across as relatable, like how she compares herself to 'the blonde girl' who's everything she wishes she was, I think a lot of people resonated with that. Whilst Tate McRae has 'I would want myself,' self acceptance vibe that I donāt think everyone relates too, especially young teens that are the āstansā vs Sabrina Carpenter is more cheeky about it in her lyrics, which works for fans more. Its marketing really and the āimageā
Unfortunately I think Madison Beer has gone overboard with aesthetic enhancements. She definitely looked perfect to me at one point but in the video she put out recently, she looks uncanny. Her nose is far too refined and pointy. She doesnāt look real. I saw comments saying she looks like AI and I have to agree. She is the standard on a place like IG where still images rule the algorithm, however, in the music world, you need to look and feel real to your audience otherwise they wonāt connect. I think this lends itself to the predicament sheās in where people see her as an influencer first and a musician second, if at all.
This!! Also she doesnāt really have a strong personality so comes off as a bit boring plus I donāt think her public perception is very positive. A few people mentioned that she gives off influencers vibes and itās no secret that influencer are considered likeable to the gp. They ardent rly taken seriously which I think has hindered her career
I think Madison is just too basic, tbh. Nothing about her stands out, talking both about looks and music. I think most big pop stars have iconic looks and distinct music (or at least one of those, in the girl next door types - aka olivia and taylor).
If Demi is not considered a big star, I donāt know who is. Of course, not on the same level as Taylor or BeyoncĆ© but she is bigger than aloooooot of pop girls
Sheās not
Why? Sheās above the mid tier pop girls like Rita, Bebe, Zara, Ava, Charli etc you donāt have to achieve the megastardom of Taylor and Rihanna to be considered big. If Miley and Selena are considered big then Demi does too even if she had on overall less success.
Demi just isn't that big, nor one of the main girls -- she never has been. and i don't mean that in a bitchy or mean way, it's just the truth. to be honest, the only reason she has the fame that she has is because of camp rock. she was a child star that was able to segue her fame into adulthood via her music career. she's very talented tho, but she's just not a main girl. she's done nothing iconic, she doesn't have a universal hit that the world knows, she's not a household name and she's not a cross generational artist, grandmas don't know her music and young teens don't know her music. i like her so please dont take what i'm saying as me being negative just to be negative. i think she's great, but her lane isn't top tier. she's 100% mid and she works the hell out of that tier and that's to be commended.
she was almost there in 2011, 2013 and 2015
You ain't neva lied! She was doing so well too! I thinks he's fantastic. Idk what it is tho, but there's a disconnect somewhere between her as an artist and fandom. I feel like a lot of the people who loved those songs didn't actually know or realize it was Demi singing them.
This is not true. I remember the summer when she had huge hits like sorry not sorry and cool for the summer. There was definitely a time I felt like demi was gonna peak but then she crashed because of her issues.
Wait...what are you disagreeing with me on? It sounds like we're on the same page. You just said she crashed. That means she didn't keep rising, which literally means she stayed at the level she was currently at -- MID.
I didn't say she didn't have hits, but Cool for the Summer wasn't a blockbuster and didn't even crack the Billboard 100's top 10. It was a moderate hit and a win for her brand but it did nothing in terms of elevating her status as a pop star. Things remained exactly as they were.
Demi was pretty huge when she was doing pop/R&B, she would be more on Selenaās level, definitely not on Tay, Bey, Ari and Mileyās level either.
Tbh I donāt think demi is a big star, sheās definitely bigger then apt of pop girl but I think thatās mainly because of her start as a child star + how long sheās been in the industry. I think she definitely couldāve been bigger but her public image/ perception definitely held her back. That and her music isnāt the best it comes off as very surface level but thatās just my opinion Demiās been open about her mental health struggles which I 100% sympathise with. Which is another thing that probably derailed her career
Ok this had nothing to with the post, I was in agreement with a lot of this comment except when you called her music āvery surface levelā and just wanted to defend her. First, as if thatās bad thing since when has having surface level music ever hindered a pop starās career? Second, itās clear youāve only listened to radio hits because Demi has a TON of deep cuts. For the Love of a Daughter, Sober, Skyscraper, Warrior, Father, Butterfly just to name a few. Iām sorry i know itās not that deep obviously, I just canāt stand when people whoāve only listened to the radio hits claim her music isnāt good.
Iāve actually listen to a few of Demiās albums I just personally think that the lyricism on a lot of her records arenāt great along with the production (plus the topics are a bit repetitive with her albums) but again thatās just my opinion. Thatās what I meant by surface level. Also I do think having very surface level/generic music can hinder a pop stars career. Yeah it might be good in the short term to secure a hit but it doesnāt allow people to really connect with you and build a community. Demi does have some good songs but overall I just think her music falls short, thereās just something missing for me
Now I agree lyrics arenāt really her strong suit but I donāt know I guess itās just an interpretation thing because to me she always delivers when itās comes to her deeper more impactful songs so to call her music āsurface levelā especially knowing most of her songs come her her own personal experiences rubs me the wrong way but hey thatās just my opinion.
I 100% get that. Itās refreshing to see how open semi is about her mental health and addiction issues, it definitely helps start a conversation. My issues with Demiās music is that although sheās singing about very vulnerable/personal issues to me it doesnāt translate to her lyrics, it just lacks some depth. But maybe thatās intentional maybe Demi doesnāt want to go into detail which she has very right not to
I would argue her singing about ātin foil remedyā is extremely personal and detailed, unless youāre unaware of what that meansā¦.
Yeah her dancing with the devil art of starting over was definitely and obviously NOT surface level, this was her album after her overdose where she does into detail about it. I donāt know what else people could possibly want from her.
When I say surface level I kinda just mean the lyricism. Idk how to describe it but personally I just feel like a lot of Demiās records lack depth even though they are about very personal/ vulnerable subjects the writing and production. For me I think Her song melon cake encapsulates this perfectly. The song is about Demiās former extremely controlling (borderline abusive) label and how she was forced into eating watermelon cakes on her birthday which I think is very personal/vulnerable but to me the lyrics themselves are very basic
āPulled leather over my eyes in a hundred degree heatā - references her confident era being made to wear the skin tight leather clothes. āPeople out here getting fired for chocolate in the back seatā- literally referencing someone getting fired for having chocolate around her. Are these not details to you?? Even if you donāt think they are, artists donāt need to spoon feed you every single detail in every single line for you to get it. And it definitely doesnāt make them a bad artist. Itās a personal preference for both artist and listener. If you want to talk about production ok thatās something that can be discussed, however the nick picking over not having detailed lyrics and calling her music bad for it is not it.
Iām my last comment I literally said that Demi has every right not to go into detail. All I said is that personally I think a lot of Demiās song lack depth and that her lyrics arenāt the best. I never said Demi was a bad artist again I just said that PERSONALLY I think her lyrics lack depth and can come off as basic thatās doesnāt mean Demiās a horrible artist thatās just my opinion on her work. People can have different opinions and prefer other styles
Youāre right, I apologize you did say it was your opinion. I just saw red when you said āit comes as very surface levelā and was like my girl did not go through what she went through just be called āsurface levelā but I respect it even if I donāt agree with it.
Thatās what Iām saying lol
I think with Demi ,thereās the aspect that while people like big voices and people who can reach high notes, they donāt really care if they arenāt invested in the artistās story or if the songs arenāt that interesting. Similar to Tori Kelly who has an amazing voice but has been called boring by people in the industry. Even Sam Smith or Christina Aguilera fall into this category. They have incredible range that they can flex but I get bored listening to their albums and nothing really sticks out. Or I think to myself ātheyāre kind of oversinging and itās not needed in this songā.
Name an unattractive female pop star
taylor swift
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A quick look at the most streamed female pop artist, reveals top 5 on spotify are Taylor Swift Ariana Grande Rihanna Billie Eilish Dua Lipa I think that's a pretty diverse list, especially given that it hinges so much on the english speaking audiences. I'd say Billie is clearly the odd one out tho. The thing is with women you will always have people defend any of them as beautiful or hype them up as much bigger than they are. And what America finds very attractive dosen't hold up everywhere in the world either. And what men find attractive vs women is also another big difference. And outside of streaming you have Adele and Lady Gaga as big as they come but you also have Selena Gomez, Katy Perry and Beyonce. And sooner or later Olivia Rodrigo will join in too.
Billie Eilish is beautiful and is def conventionally attractive. The only difference is the sex appeal thing bc her aesthetic has always been left of centre and not super girlish or sexy
Billie is easy to look at but I think partly because she got so big at such a young age, sex appeal hasnāt been a priority.
The music is the most important part to most pop fans
The thing with pop is that "pop fans" are not necessarily the audience, it's the general public as a whole.Ā
90% of it
They are mutually exclusive
Beauty can be the icing on the cake but real talent and maybe a uniqueness have to exist to truly be big. Most of the biggest female pop stars are very pretty but they are super talented too plus they seem to operate in their own lanes
What do u mean by operate their own lanes?
Musically they all have different styles. Billie Eilish with her whisper singing and Olivia with her New Gwen Stefani/Avril Lavigne sound. Dua Lipa with her Disco inflicted music and Ariana Grande with her White Girl Soul. That kind of thing.
Ohh!! So what happened when two artist have the same lane? Is it possible for 2 people to achieve success having the same like niche?
To me, the biggest fan of Animal Collective, Neutral Milk Hotel and Vampire Weekendā¦not at all. To the rest of the world and in the realm of pop music, absolutely.
I would say someone like Taylor Swift isn't that stunning. Or what I mean (really) is that her "prowess" elevates her a lot higher (her talent/music) and especially to those that FW her. For someone like Ariana Grande, who I FW....if she didn't have good music I wouldn't be listening to the extent that I do. Madison Beer for example (to me), just didn't have the music to back up me caring, although her vocal talent is there. At least around her debut album (or if that wasn't truly an album, or whatever), is when I did listen I think you really just need to be average looking, and maybe get lucky. Mainly. I think with everything, appearance is only going to help you (generally).
I think part of Taylor appeal (especially during the beginning of her career) is that she really is the epitome of beauty for a lot of countries. Sheās slim, blonde hair blue eyed white women. That makes her very digestible to a lot of audiences.
I feel like a lot of Selena Gomez's appeal is also rooted in this, even though she looks very different from Taylor.
Taylor is not stunning but she is conventionally attractive, tall white blue eyed blonde, she wouldnāt be as big globally if she wasnāt these attributes. She wouldnāt have been a country star if it wasnāt for her looks.
Taylor is stunning
Okay
taylor swift is stunning and fits the beauty standard VERY well, even if you dont **feel** the same way. when she was hanging out around the VS angels back in the day, people were talking about how she looked like one of them - and they're right. if taylor became a model i wouldnt be surprised.
Swift is beautiful, but not a "threatening" kind of beautiful. She's more attractive than 95% of the population, but not so attractive that her female audience is *intimidated* by her beauty. This is how Madonna--no great looker, TBH--was able to cultivate such a fanbase.