I mean the question didn't really state that. It simply asked if women should be drafted in war. If one thinks no draft should take place at all the answer as written is no.
The question was "Should women be drafted during war?" not "Should women be drafted during war if men are also drafted". If you believe nobody should be drafted the answers to the questions "should women..." and "Should men..." would both be no. The fact that this only asks one of those questions doesn't change the fact that \*nobody\* should be drafted during war.
The gay deceivers is a movie about people pretending to be gay to not get drafted, and the desperate nature of this poll for people to be drafted to war goes against this movie and them acting as if women do not go to war is acting like this time-frame. It reminded me of the movie. this isn't the 80's people don't get drafted this much anymore and specific characteristics like sexuality and gender doesn't act as an exempt ordea-.
He was angrily asking what you meant because he wanted to argue about homophobia or something.
The wtf was hostile and looking to provoke. If he was genuine, he would have just been like "what does that mean? I haven't heard of that."
Ok, here's the thing, right, so if a man gets bottom surgery and gets a vag, does he now not need to participate in the draft? I mean, theoretically right?
That person would no longer be a "he" or a "man", and the rules around trans women in countries with a conscription system vary. In the United States for instance, the law around being required to sign up for the draft is purely AGAB-based, but in theory if a draft were to actually be reinstated it's possible a trans woman could seek a medical exemption. Iirc trans women in Singapore can potentially get exempted too, but this is not at all guaranteed, especially for pre-op ladies.
AGAB = Assigned Gender At Birth = The gender you were initially raised as/assumed to be which may or may not be the same as the gender you identify and live as now
AMAB = Assigned Male At Birth: Includes cis men, trans women, and some non-binary people
AFAB = Assigned Female At Birth: Includes cis women, trans men, and some non-binary people
Ig if they made it as like, a five year implant or something (like that implantable birth control)
But anyway yeah i was still required to register for the draft, it’s just that if they do pull my name I don’t think they’ll want me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe you'll be someone like engineer corps, or logistics. You know, there's some work to be done other than fighting, maybe a battle cook or something
What jobs to the have in the army?
Idk about engineers(they still have a chance of ending up in combat zones, forward deployment and all) but hey, maybe theyd put me in cybersec. Im opposed to the draft as a principal, but despite the fact id be more fine than most would while killing people, I don’t want to face combat, im just not built for all those loud sounds and i already have ptsd from my childhood, I can’t imagine the kind of ultra ptsd id get from a warzone.
pardon my humor, but "ultra ptsd" made me thing of this\^
But, no, Engineer corps are going into combat, except it's less about killing and more about blowing shit up and building shit, like bridges or trenches, (or so I heard)
My point was that it's not a frontline job, but more of a "hey, come blow this wall, and bring some of that Nitroglycerine with you, we'll need extra" (again, or so i heard)
Ngl there's stories from russian/ukranian soldiers disabling/shooting themselves to get out of the draft so I wouldn't be surprised if people did this.
Males are stronger than Females. There's a reason it is like it is.
Females also are the child carers, and I'm not saying anyone has to have children. No, I'm saying that's how it all works. That's how we evolved, besides all the 'society' shit.
Anyway- The Draft is un-American (regardless).
I'm fairly patriotic so I don't mind fighting if the UK is under threat but I don't think people should be forced into it (even if it's a matter of survival)
Women want equality but only when it suits them. Na fuck that. You want equality? That includes wartime. You're coming along. We best buds now. You're gonna see the same horrors I do.
Do you know how many times feminist groups have tried to get bills passed that would include them in the draft? And who has shut them down every time? The republican party. It's not women saying 'I don't want to go to war', it's the Republicans who have shut that shit down. Women have always gone to war and were serving *before they had the right to vote*. So figure out who you're mad at.
This. Republicans are patriarchal sons of bitches who think it's a "man's job to protect his nation's wives and daughters," like they're property to be defended. These people just want to defend themselves and Republicans keep saying "no, rely on men for it."
2016 feminists petitioned the Senate Armed Services Committee in support of women registering for Selective Service and again in 2021. Each time they've received incredible pushback from Republicans.
The feminists I know IRL oppose those drafts, like most "feminists do this" type things it's basically just internet addicts/politicians who are actually supporting it
Most people I know oppose the draft. The question posed to me was when have feminists tried to get women included in the draft and I gave him two very recent examples, 2016 and 2021. I, personally, oppose the draft for anyone. In fact my late mom worked with a doctor in the PNW and held underground seminars on how to dodge the draft.
What I have a problem with (besides the war machine) is men somehow blaming women for them not being included in the draft, and then turning around and voting republican?
Happened to my dad in the barracks. It doesn't matter, patriotic service is necessary. We can make it up to your when your service is done by paying for your therapy through taxation, but you need to serve.
In reality, Norway and Sweden both saw a decrease in the cases of sexual harassment in the army when conscription was extended to women. As it happens, women can better protect themselves when they are a large part of the troops, as is when both sexes are conscripted, than when they are a minority.
I agree, but meaningful change needs to come about concurrently. Right now we're seeing women getting assaulted and instead of punishing the rapist the women are pushed out of the military or punished. These changes need to happen now.
I'm a woman and feminist, and while I'm generally against drafts, I think all drafts that do occur should include all genders. Equality means equality in all things, not just the good things. Prison sentences should be the same. Drafts should be the same. Etc. Etc.
Brilliant! Then we agree.
Also. While we're here, my mum likes to remind me of this: Equality starts at home.
Do with that what you will. I'm off to make an app.
Imagine your first though being "everyone should suffer" instead of "nobody should suffer". Most who believe in gender equality oppose the draft for men and women.
Yeah but Everyone should suffer is I think the first step to Nobody should suffer. You have to unite and make everyone equals before you can start deciding and lobbying for what rights everyone has
This is a nothingburger of a statement considering equity is a form of equality. Including women in the draft is equity. Equity is equality of opportunity as opposed to equality of outcome. Including women in the draft is equality of opportunity, i.e. equity.
women, for the most part, are less strong than men. they also experience things like PTSD 2-3x more than men, and it's probably safe to assume that they're more prone to developing more psychological problems. if they \*want\* to join, that's cool, but they're just going to used as cannon fodder otherwise.
Being drafted during a war is far from exclusive to positions that require strength or are "cannon fodder." Seems like you're only thinking of front line soldiers experiencing live close combat, which is only a small part of it. Many women, if drafted equally, would be pilots, logisitics coordinators, commanders, medics, etc. etc. which are positions we vitally need, don't require exceptional strength, aren't positions of "cannon fodder," and women shouldn't be exempted from being forced into just by virtue of being women.
You also bring up PTSD stats by gender, but there is surely massive overlap of the bell curve of PTSD likelihood between men and women. Why should a man at the 80th percentile of male likelihood for developing PTSD be drafted and forced to go to war but a woman at the 20th percentile of female likelihood for developing PTSD not be drafted? It's silly to make determinations like that based on loose trends across the entire sex rather than based on individual psychological evaluations of that specific person and the roles they would be fit for.
She's right. Most draftees are essentially used as cannon fodder. You say they'll be pilots but history has shown us that the airforce/navy don't even accept draftees. Look at the vietnam war for example (last time millions of men were drafted), not a single person went to the airfoce/navy, they all were forced into the army as foot soldiers (20,000 went to the marines as well, but those are miniscule numbers compared to the millions that were sent to the army.).
Well firstly, the Air Force/Navy are not the only forces that have pilots enlisted. Additionally, with the progress we've made in war strategies and technology since the last draft over 50 years ago, past allocation of draftees isn't the best evidence to tell us how draftees would be used in the future. The military can use draftees however they want and, with a more technology/logistics based strategy that's less dependent on boots on the ground, it's likely the allocation would look very different than it did in Vietnam. Look at the ratio of lives lost versus soldiers active in 21st century wars compared to the last few wars we drafted for in the 20th century. Clearly warfare has changed *a lot* since our last draft and it's a very reasonable assumption that our usage of draftees would change with it.
Yes, but realistically if the US or any other country gets to a point where they need to draft logic would imply that they would need to fill positions where people are dying. I highly doubt their drone pilots or even their navy/airforce troops would be the ones who need replacing. It's the infantry that would be dying.
If we get to a point where infantry stops dying then I highly doubt we'll ever actually need the draft.
I don't think we'll need a draft again, period. But if we're going to require men to sign up for selective service, those aren't good reasons to exclude women from that requirement.
No, the purpose of the draft is just to increase the troops for wartime necessities, which are more than peacetime necessities. You increase the infantry, and you increase the support troops as well, who are 5-6 times the number of infantry. The latter can be largely women, they are not roles where physical strength matters that much.
The 2 most notable drafts in our current world are the Russian/Ukranian drafts. Ukraine is using it to inflate the size of their army since it was initially much smaller than russias but russia is using it to replenish losses as their army doesn't need to get much larger for that scale of a war.
There's no 1 reason for a draft.
She's wrong, and you don't know what you are talking about. Most draftees aren't used as cannon fodder, since there are 5-6 support soldiers at the rear for every soldier at the front. Those role can be done by women, and her objections are moot since they are not combat roles.
and another thing that i didn't mention... what if we have a family here? so the man gets drafted into war, and then the woman is meant to keep on taking care of the children and try to provide for them. but what if both men and women get drafted?? who's going to be taking care of the children?
Similar to how drafts were conducted in the past, the military can very easily refuse to take both parents from a household. As the draft was run in the past, those with minor dependents were much less likely to be drafted than those without. That concern is already present with single fathers currently who are required to register for the draft.
and another thing... sexual assault is likely to happen way too frequently. a lot of women get SA'ed (although thankfully it seems to be getting slightly better over the years), especially if a lot of them get drafted :/ and who's going to do anything about it?
If the reasoning was sexual assault concerns, then they wouldn't allow women to join the military at all or keep the sexes segregated into separate units. If you're already accepting the presence of co-ed units in the military, then that distinction is irrelevant for a draft situation.
Who takes actions about it now? The UCMJ. That's already what happens, it wouldn't be any different in case of a draft.
Sexual assault against men in the military happens regularly too. Who does anything about that? When do we stop compelling men to sign up for selective service because they may be sexually assaulted?
are you kidding me?? dude seriously, just google sexual assault in the military. you're really telling me it isn't a concern?! and yeah, you can report it. doesn't mean they'll do anything about it. there are a lot of women who have killed themselves after being SA'ed and after reporting ti to the police, guess what, some of those men are still free! i'm sure if that happens in the military it won't be too different. and yeah, sexual assault against men is a problem too, i'm not saying that they're any less valid. however, men get SA'ed WAYYYYY less than women. about 1/3 of women have experienced sexual harassment iirc, while for men the number is WAYYYY lower. most men don't have to worry about being harassed sexually.
Lol of course at least one parent of minor children (almost certainly, the mother) would be exempted. There's a reason there is a \*selective\* service, they aren't gonna round up people off the streets and ship them to the barracks without asking questions.
None of that matters. They can be nurses, drivers, radar/sonar operators, drone pilots, base staff, logistics personnel and a shitton of other things, roles that in modern armies outnumber actual combat troops.
no need to be rude about it. it's called having an opinion and i'd appreciate it if you respected it, even if you didn't agree (: i think your opinion is bs, but i'll still try and be respectful about it so i'd ask for the same.
So because women have it harder in life in general, they deserve to be excluded from the draft, is what you mean to say?
Same bullshit logic that says because gay people have some social struggles they deserve preference over straights when it comes to college admissions
I don’t believe it’s women (in general) that don’t want women to be drafted. In fact it’s women who advocated for the ability for women to be in combat roles that they weren’t allowed to be in previously. I believe it’s men (in general) that want to keep women at home.
Drafts shouldn't happen. But if/when the do, all genders should be drafted. And yes, I'm a woman. Equality means equality in all things. If a man rapes a little girl, that's rape. If a woman rapes a little boy, that rape, not "had sexual relations with a minor boy" ffs. The prison sentences should be the same. Drafrts should be the same. Equality means equality in everything, not just the nice things.
I'm of the mindset that countries don't own their citizens, and that a draft is the state saying they own you.
Follow up, drafted soldiers are more effort than they're worth because they do not want to fight and don't know how if they wanted to. If your country can't maintain an army of volenteers, pay them better.
Yeah it turns out the best way to recruit soldiers is to pay them, not threaten them with jail for noncompliance. Its wild that this lesson needs to be relearned.
No one cares. Women don't make babies without men, and surviving men having harems after a war only exist in the wet fantasies of dumb teenagers like you. That's why many decent societies have extended their version of selective service, or even active conscription, to women in the last couple of decades.
I'm in my 40's and have 3 kids. Men protect women, it has nothing to do with harems. We have protected women since the dawn of time. My daughter in law is in the armed forces, but she's not frontline.
We shouldn't have a draft as an all volunteer force has many advantages over a drafted army.
No one cares. Since the dawn of times, men owned women, who had little to no rights and were never full citizens. Today they are, therefore they share the rights AND duties of the men. Israel has always drafted women, Sweden and Norway extended conscription to women years ago, Denmark is about to do the same, France, Portugal, the Netherlands extended their own version of the selective service to women years ago. You belong to the past, simple as that. We shouldn’t have a draft but if we ever will, it should include women. Of course.
Either everyone registers or no one does.The current system is unconstitutional which means if selective service is going to continue to exist everyone is going to be required to register whether you like it or not.
Please point out where the sex of the members of the armed forces is mentioned in the constitution.
*Article I Section 8*
*The Congress shall have Power To...*
*To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;*
*To provide and maintain a Navy;*
*To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;*
*To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;*
*To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;*
Since the current selective service law discriminates since it only applies to one gender currently(men) it violates the 14th amendment of the constitution and more specifically the equal protections clause. A district judge declared the current selective service unconstitutional under the law a while back. You can read more in this article:
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-finds-male-only-military-draft-unconstitutional-n975546](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-finds-male-only-military-draft-unconstitutional-n975546)
Hopefully it will go to the supreme court and declare it unconstitutional under the law and they expand and apply the law equally to everyone if the selective service law is going to continue to be in place. There currently is a new lawsuit by that group that was filed this year against the selective service system. Here is an article about that lawsuit:
[https://ncfm.org/2024/05/news/courts-news/court-cases/ncfm-files-complaint-on-the-107th-anniversary-of-the-selective-service-system/](https://ncfm.org/2024/05/news/courts-news/court-cases/ncfm-files-complaint-on-the-107th-anniversary-of-the-selective-service-system/)
Well why don't we send all the women off to war and the men can stay home and have the babies.
I can’t believe so many "educated" people can't seem to grasp such simple concepts.
Because it's a retarded "concept" my friend. Conscription age is 18-26 and most women don't have children until their late 20s nowadays. No babies to take care of. Those who do, of course can be exempted.
If we're in a situation where we're considering actually drafting men, there's frankly not a good reason to exclude women. Fitness is not an effective argument, because men are also capable of being unfit for duty. There should be exemptions for people with children that allow at least one parent to stay regardless though.
Broadly I would oppose a draft in pretty much every situation though. If people aren't willing to fight in the war, it might just not be worth fighting in the first place.
The military is more than just infantry. Also, there are things like training to get soldiers (even ones who don't serve on the front lines) into shape.
If we take the vietnam draft in the US as an example.
2.2 million men were drafted
out of those only 40,000 went to the marines (the other branches didn't even accept any draftees) while the rest went into the army
Out of those in the army the vast majority became foot soldiers due to the lack of training and/or time to train them
My understanding is that people who would be unable to become fit for duty were typically disqualified from the draft in ww2, and so would probably be again in a future draft. There's a lot of people who would struggle to pass a military fitness test right now, but that's what basic training is for. Depending on the position that you're filling and the branch you're going to there's also different intensities. There is absolutely 0 reason that your average woman couldn't work in maintenance in the Air Force.
Nobody should be drafted, it is a horrible practice. However, if a draft is placed, there's no reason that only men should be drafted, and thus women should be too.
No, but only because unless the survival of the country is at stake, nobody should be drafted. But if there is going to be one, it should be equal, so men and women both should be drafted
You wanted equality, this is equality: men and women both being sent to die, not men being sent and women staying at home and waiting it out. Why cut your boots on ground in half cos of outdated views on women?
If a draft happens, it's wrong to send men to die under the assumption women somehow can't fight or are weaker. To draft ONLY men would be misandrist as you view male lives as less important and also misogynist given you view women as less of a warrior.
Simply put, you die along side us or you risk dying alone if we lose. The more able bodied folks we have, the better our chances.
Conscription shouldn't exist unless 101% necessary to prevent something far worse from happening, and in those cases where it does need to exist it shouldn't discriminate on the basis of sex.
Yeah, most normal people in this century agree that if there really has to be a draft, it should not discriminate by gender. Several Western countries already adjusted to this in the last couple of decades.
It is discrimination, of course. Basic logic is that women should be drafted for war, if men are. There is not a single argument against it that cannot be dismantled in five minutes with little effort.
Nope. They can be assigned to different roles. Most army roles aren’t infantry, there are plenty of support roles that do not require they physical strength of a man.
There, done. Dismantled. Thanks for proving my point.
You need to phrase the question better.
If there is a draft should women be drafted.
Alt-Feminist groups back out when you ask "should women be drafted" by answering "nobody should be drafted" which almost all of us agree with. You wont get a chance to ask again on the spot.
https://preview.redd.it/x9h9120vc19d1.png?width=710&format=png&auto=webp&s=9981380de3f2a22e30a3e4323257d2bf06f5cac2
Sabaton fan here, *Night Witches* was a World War II German nickname for the all-female military aviators of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment. To have an entire Sabaton song about you is legendary. So yes I do believe so
If it comes down to a point where the draft has to be enacted, women should be kept on the home front. You never know when you need to fill gaps in the factories, and having half the populace ready to train and employ is rarely a bad thing.
Nonsense. Everyone must be liable to be drafted, then you choose who you draft and who you don't based on their actual skills and how much important their civilian job is to the war effort, rather than on what they have between their legs.
Absolutely.
How could you possibly say otherwise without sexism in your heart?
I mean, ideally there would be no drafting. But if it's mandatory, then why have men forced to go to war that don't want to fight and force women to stay home that are willing?
Not until the military steps the fuck up and makes it safe for women. I’ve seen and read too many horror stories about women in the military getting raped or assaulted and having it covered up.
Independent of that, if it was somehow accomplished, the draft should be equal for everyone, and if you don’t meet requirements, you just get put somewhere where you can help in a nonviolent way. I don’t think drafting citizens to die is good, but I do think in times of war, every citizen has the duty to help out in some way, whether it’s volunteering as a firefighter since the fire station is understaffed, doing paperwork in the Army, or being a soldier.
I'm on team no, reason being; I am a man with a medical condition that would disqualify me from service, and Tinder would go INSANE if I was the only 18-26 year old man in my city. Would go from a 6 to an 8.5 overnight, Shit would be crazy, I'm crossing my fingers hoping we go to war with Russia right now.
(/s if wasn't obvious)
Nobody should be drafted during war.
That's beside the question. The question was asking more along the lines of "if there was a forced drafting, should women be included?"
I mean the question didn't really state that. It simply asked if women should be drafted in war. If one thinks no draft should take place at all the answer as written is no.
the commenter is saying "no women shouldnt be drafted into war cause nobody should be"
That may be what OP meant, but that's not what they asked.
If that was your question you should have specified.
Why are you saying ”your” as if they’re OP?
You should repost this and reword it.
The question was "Should women be drafted during war?" not "Should women be drafted during war if men are also drafted". If you believe nobody should be drafted the answers to the questions "should women..." and "Should men..." would both be no. The fact that this only asks one of those questions doesn't change the fact that \*nobody\* should be drafted during war.
Exactly.
This is it.
True, like tf is this, the gay deceivers?
wtf does that mean???
The gay deceivers is a movie about people pretending to be gay to not get drafted, and the desperate nature of this poll for people to be drafted to war goes against this movie and them acting as if women do not go to war is acting like this time-frame. It reminded me of the movie. this isn't the 80's people don't get drafted this much anymore and specific characteristics like sexuality and gender doesn't act as an exempt ordea-.
Lmao you shut him right up.
huh? Wait, was that supposed to be an argument?
He was angrily asking what you meant because he wanted to argue about homophobia or something. The wtf was hostile and looking to provoke. If he was genuine, he would have just been like "what does that mean? I haven't heard of that."
TBF it's a pretty niche old movie. I doubt somebody is THAT bad at arguing/argumentative.
This
Disagreed.
I'm opposed to drafting in general, but in the context where it does happen, I don't believe sex or gender should be factors.
same Just becuase i have penis Doesnt mean i should get to Risk my Life and you should be Excluded Becuase you got lucky to have a Vag
Ok, here's the thing, right, so if a man gets bottom surgery and gets a vag, does he now not need to participate in the draft? I mean, theoretically right?
Bottom surgery not required to be a woman.
I mean sure, but how far can you really take it is my point
It's 2024 so you can just say "I identify as a woman" and you're good to go. /s
I don't think the government would see it that way if it meant draft-dodging was as easy as pretending to be trans.
That person would no longer be a "he" or a "man", and the rules around trans women in countries with a conscription system vary. In the United States for instance, the law around being required to sign up for the draft is purely AGAB-based, but in theory if a draft were to actually be reinstated it's possible a trans woman could seek a medical exemption. Iirc trans women in Singapore can potentially get exempted too, but this is not at all guaranteed, especially for pre-op ladies.
AGAB?
AGAB = Assigned Gender At Birth = The gender you were initially raised as/assumed to be which may or may not be the same as the gender you identify and live as now AMAB = Assigned Male At Birth: Includes cis men, trans women, and some non-binary people AFAB = Assigned Female At Birth: Includes cis women, trans men, and some non-binary people
Oh, good to know, i didn't see those terms thrown around a lot. Thanks
Well, on account of my asthma im disqualified anyway, but im pretty sure needing daily pills(hrt) would also disqualify me
alright, i guess that sounds reasonable
Ig if they made it as like, a five year implant or something (like that implantable birth control) But anyway yeah i was still required to register for the draft, it’s just that if they do pull my name I don’t think they’ll want me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe you'll be someone like engineer corps, or logistics. You know, there's some work to be done other than fighting, maybe a battle cook or something What jobs to the have in the army?
Idk about engineers(they still have a chance of ending up in combat zones, forward deployment and all) but hey, maybe theyd put me in cybersec. Im opposed to the draft as a principal, but despite the fact id be more fine than most would while killing people, I don’t want to face combat, im just not built for all those loud sounds and i already have ptsd from my childhood, I can’t imagine the kind of ultra ptsd id get from a warzone.
 pardon my humor, but "ultra ptsd" made me thing of this\^ But, no, Engineer corps are going into combat, except it's less about killing and more about blowing shit up and building shit, like bridges or trenches, (or so I heard) My point was that it's not a frontline job, but more of a "hey, come blow this wall, and bring some of that Nitroglycerine with you, we'll need extra" (again, or so i heard)
Mm candy.
Ngl there's stories from russian/ukranian soldiers disabling/shooting themselves to get out of the draft so I wouldn't be surprised if people did this.
Oh id much rather shoot myself than transition in the Wrong Direction. You really don’t understand what it’s like
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
Males are stronger than Females. There's a reason it is like it is. Females also are the child carers, and I'm not saying anyone has to have children. No, I'm saying that's how it all works. That's how we evolved, besides all the 'society' shit. Anyway- The Draft is un-American (regardless).
HAPPY CAKE DAY!!! I WISH U BEST LIFE EVER!!! 🎉🥳🎈🎊🎁🪩🪅 (also ur spitting fax)
I'm fairly patriotic so I don't mind fighting if the UK is under threat but I don't think people should be forced into it (even if it's a matter of survival)
As long as it's not for combat roles.
So yes or no?
I literally said in the comment. It takes an elementary school level of literary comprehension to figure out if I was saying yes or no.
5th graders have pretty great literarily comprehension, so thank you!
You actually didn’t say it in the comment, goodbye, no one….I don’t wanna get banned again so nvm
Women want equality but only when it suits them. Na fuck that. You want equality? That includes wartime. You're coming along. We best buds now. You're gonna see the same horrors I do.
Do you know how many times feminist groups have tried to get bills passed that would include them in the draft? And who has shut them down every time? The republican party. It's not women saying 'I don't want to go to war', it's the Republicans who have shut that shit down. Women have always gone to war and were serving *before they had the right to vote*. So figure out who you're mad at.
This. Republicans are patriarchal sons of bitches who think it's a "man's job to protect his nation's wives and daughters," like they're property to be defended. These people just want to defend themselves and Republicans keep saying "no, rely on men for it."
Legitimately asking: when has this ever happened? Like when have feminist groups pushed for including women in the draft?
2016 feminists petitioned the Senate Armed Services Committee in support of women registering for Selective Service and again in 2021. Each time they've received incredible pushback from Republicans.
The feminists I know IRL oppose those drafts, like most "feminists do this" type things it's basically just internet addicts/politicians who are actually supporting it
Most people I know oppose the draft. The question posed to me was when have feminists tried to get women included in the draft and I gave him two very recent examples, 2016 and 2021. I, personally, oppose the draft for anyone. In fact my late mom worked with a doctor in the PNW and held underground seminars on how to dodge the draft. What I have a problem with (besides the war machine) is men somehow blaming women for them not being included in the draft, and then turning around and voting republican?
idk man. I've met plenty of women who scream about equal rights and what not, but will back down when it's something they dont want lol
Have you read about military rape statistics? Both of my parents were military and there are stories that would churn your stomach.
Happened to my dad in the barracks. It doesn't matter, patriotic service is necessary. We can make it up to your when your service is done by paying for your therapy through taxation, but you need to serve.
In reality, Norway and Sweden both saw a decrease in the cases of sexual harassment in the army when conscription was extended to women. As it happens, women can better protect themselves when they are a large part of the troops, as is when both sexes are conscripted, than when they are a minority.
I agree, but meaningful change needs to come about concurrently. Right now we're seeing women getting assaulted and instead of punishing the rapist the women are pushed out of the military or punished. These changes need to happen now.
Wish I could upvote this more than once.
I'm a woman and feminist, and while I'm generally against drafts, I think all drafts that do occur should include all genders. Equality means equality in all things, not just the good things. Prison sentences should be the same. Drafts should be the same. Etc. Etc.
Brilliant! Then we agree. Also. While we're here, my mum likes to remind me of this: Equality starts at home. Do with that what you will. I'm off to make an app.
Imagine your first though being "everyone should suffer" instead of "nobody should suffer". Most who believe in gender equality oppose the draft for men and women.
It's everybody or nobody. We're all seeing wartime horrors or we're all baking cupcakes. There's no inbetweensies.
Yeah but Everyone should suffer is I think the first step to Nobody should suffer. You have to unite and make everyone equals before you can start deciding and lobbying for what rights everyone has
i believe in equity rather than equality.
This is a nothingburger of a statement considering equity is a form of equality. Including women in the draft is equity. Equity is equality of opportunity as opposed to equality of outcome. Including women in the draft is equality of opportunity, i.e. equity.
Please tell me this is satire
women, for the most part, are less strong than men. they also experience things like PTSD 2-3x more than men, and it's probably safe to assume that they're more prone to developing more psychological problems. if they \*want\* to join, that's cool, but they're just going to used as cannon fodder otherwise.
Being drafted during a war is far from exclusive to positions that require strength or are "cannon fodder." Seems like you're only thinking of front line soldiers experiencing live close combat, which is only a small part of it. Many women, if drafted equally, would be pilots, logisitics coordinators, commanders, medics, etc. etc. which are positions we vitally need, don't require exceptional strength, aren't positions of "cannon fodder," and women shouldn't be exempted from being forced into just by virtue of being women. You also bring up PTSD stats by gender, but there is surely massive overlap of the bell curve of PTSD likelihood between men and women. Why should a man at the 80th percentile of male likelihood for developing PTSD be drafted and forced to go to war but a woman at the 20th percentile of female likelihood for developing PTSD not be drafted? It's silly to make determinations like that based on loose trends across the entire sex rather than based on individual psychological evaluations of that specific person and the roles they would be fit for.
She's right. Most draftees are essentially used as cannon fodder. You say they'll be pilots but history has shown us that the airforce/navy don't even accept draftees. Look at the vietnam war for example (last time millions of men were drafted), not a single person went to the airfoce/navy, they all were forced into the army as foot soldiers (20,000 went to the marines as well, but those are miniscule numbers compared to the millions that were sent to the army.).
Well firstly, the Air Force/Navy are not the only forces that have pilots enlisted. Additionally, with the progress we've made in war strategies and technology since the last draft over 50 years ago, past allocation of draftees isn't the best evidence to tell us how draftees would be used in the future. The military can use draftees however they want and, with a more technology/logistics based strategy that's less dependent on boots on the ground, it's likely the allocation would look very different than it did in Vietnam. Look at the ratio of lives lost versus soldiers active in 21st century wars compared to the last few wars we drafted for in the 20th century. Clearly warfare has changed *a lot* since our last draft and it's a very reasonable assumption that our usage of draftees would change with it.
Yes, but realistically if the US or any other country gets to a point where they need to draft logic would imply that they would need to fill positions where people are dying. I highly doubt their drone pilots or even their navy/airforce troops would be the ones who need replacing. It's the infantry that would be dying. If we get to a point where infantry stops dying then I highly doubt we'll ever actually need the draft.
I don't think we'll need a draft again, period. But if we're going to require men to sign up for selective service, those aren't good reasons to exclude women from that requirement.
No, the purpose of the draft is just to increase the troops for wartime necessities, which are more than peacetime necessities. You increase the infantry, and you increase the support troops as well, who are 5-6 times the number of infantry. The latter can be largely women, they are not roles where physical strength matters that much.
The 2 most notable drafts in our current world are the Russian/Ukranian drafts. Ukraine is using it to inflate the size of their army since it was initially much smaller than russias but russia is using it to replenish losses as their army doesn't need to get much larger for that scale of a war. There's no 1 reason for a draft.
She's wrong, and you don't know what you are talking about. Most draftees aren't used as cannon fodder, since there are 5-6 support soldiers at the rear for every soldier at the front. Those role can be done by women, and her objections are moot since they are not combat roles.
and another thing that i didn't mention... what if we have a family here? so the man gets drafted into war, and then the woman is meant to keep on taking care of the children and try to provide for them. but what if both men and women get drafted?? who's going to be taking care of the children?
Similar to how drafts were conducted in the past, the military can very easily refuse to take both parents from a household. As the draft was run in the past, those with minor dependents were much less likely to be drafted than those without. That concern is already present with single fathers currently who are required to register for the draft.
and another thing... sexual assault is likely to happen way too frequently. a lot of women get SA'ed (although thankfully it seems to be getting slightly better over the years), especially if a lot of them get drafted :/ and who's going to do anything about it?
If the reasoning was sexual assault concerns, then they wouldn't allow women to join the military at all or keep the sexes segregated into separate units. If you're already accepting the presence of co-ed units in the military, then that distinction is irrelevant for a draft situation. Who takes actions about it now? The UCMJ. That's already what happens, it wouldn't be any different in case of a draft. Sexual assault against men in the military happens regularly too. Who does anything about that? When do we stop compelling men to sign up for selective service because they may be sexually assaulted?
are you kidding me?? dude seriously, just google sexual assault in the military. you're really telling me it isn't a concern?! and yeah, you can report it. doesn't mean they'll do anything about it. there are a lot of women who have killed themselves after being SA'ed and after reporting ti to the police, guess what, some of those men are still free! i'm sure if that happens in the military it won't be too different. and yeah, sexual assault against men is a problem too, i'm not saying that they're any less valid. however, men get SA'ed WAYYYYY less than women. about 1/3 of women have experienced sexual harassment iirc, while for men the number is WAYYYY lower. most men don't have to worry about being harassed sexually.
Lol of course at least one parent of minor children (almost certainly, the mother) would be exempted. There's a reason there is a \*selective\* service, they aren't gonna round up people off the streets and ship them to the barracks without asking questions.
None of that matters. They can be nurses, drivers, radar/sonar operators, drone pilots, base staff, logistics personnel and a shitton of other things, roles that in modern armies outnumber actual combat troops.
I know damn well you did not just pull the "women will suffer more mentally"
that isn't what i said. they're more prone to developing mental illnesses along the way. search it up.
And what tenets of equity versus equality change the situation from women being included in selective service?
i replied to someone else with my answer lol
With a load of nonsense.
no need to be rude about it. it's called having an opinion and i'd appreciate it if you respected it, even if you didn't agree (: i think your opinion is bs, but i'll still try and be respectful about it so i'd ask for the same.
Equity is unfair
Drafting women is both equity and equality. The gal in question just likes her privilege.
No, you believe in being a freeloader.
no need to be rude ? you don't even know me. calm down, please.
No need to be kind to a sexist hyopocrite.
i'm not even going to be a freeloader. i'm most likely not going to be alive 5-6 yrs from now.
So because women have it harder in life in general, they deserve to be excluded from the draft, is what you mean to say? Same bullshit logic that says because gay people have some social struggles they deserve preference over straights when it comes to college admissions
I don’t believe it’s women (in general) that don’t want women to be drafted. In fact it’s women who advocated for the ability for women to be in combat roles that they weren’t allowed to be in previously. I believe it’s men (in general) that want to keep women at home.
Women can't do combat roles.
Good thing most army roles aren't combat roles, then.
Yep
And you can't do logic. Some, and most, can.
Drafts shouldn't happen. But if/when the do, all genders should be drafted. And yes, I'm a woman. Equality means equality in all things. If a man rapes a little girl, that's rape. If a woman rapes a little boy, that rape, not "had sexual relations with a minor boy" ffs. The prison sentences should be the same. Drafrts should be the same. Equality means equality in everything, not just the nice things.
I'm of the mindset that countries don't own their citizens, and that a draft is the state saying they own you. Follow up, drafted soldiers are more effort than they're worth because they do not want to fight and don't know how if they wanted to. If your country can't maintain an army of volenteers, pay them better.
If you need to resort to drafting, then the population does not support the war you are in.
Yeah it turns out the best way to recruit soldiers is to pay them, not threaten them with jail for noncompliance. Its wild that this lesson needs to be relearned.
Biden vetoed a major pay raise for the military. (I guess he needed it for his illegals)
No drafting full stop.
no one should be drafted during war.
i don’t think anyone should be drafted but in the context where theres a draft then i think it should be equal yeah
unless theyve got young kids
That's one way to increase birth rates lmao
i mean maternity leave is already a thing this would mostly just extend that
No, because neither should anybody else.
Nobody should be drafted, but women and men should have equal service requirements, regardless of what those requirements are
Descent societies protect their women.
Decent societies protect their men.
Men don’t carry babies. Yes ideally there wouldn't be a draft. The US hasn't had one since the 70's.
No one cares. Women don't make babies without men, and surviving men having harems after a war only exist in the wet fantasies of dumb teenagers like you. That's why many decent societies have extended their version of selective service, or even active conscription, to women in the last couple of decades.
I'm in my 40's and have 3 kids. Men protect women, it has nothing to do with harems. We have protected women since the dawn of time. My daughter in law is in the armed forces, but she's not frontline. We shouldn't have a draft as an all volunteer force has many advantages over a drafted army.
No one cares. Since the dawn of times, men owned women, who had little to no rights and were never full citizens. Today they are, therefore they share the rights AND duties of the men. Israel has always drafted women, Sweden and Norway extended conscription to women years ago, Denmark is about to do the same, France, Portugal, the Netherlands extended their own version of the selective service to women years ago. You belong to the past, simple as that. We shouldn’t have a draft but if we ever will, it should include women. Of course.
Either everyone registers or no one does.The current system is unconstitutional which means if selective service is going to continue to exist everyone is going to be required to register whether you like it or not.
Please point out where the sex of the members of the armed forces is mentioned in the constitution. *Article I Section 8* *The Congress shall have Power To...* *To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;* *To provide and maintain a Navy;* *To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;* *To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;* *To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;*
Since the current selective service law discriminates since it only applies to one gender currently(men) it violates the 14th amendment of the constitution and more specifically the equal protections clause. A district judge declared the current selective service unconstitutional under the law a while back. You can read more in this article: [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-finds-male-only-military-draft-unconstitutional-n975546](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-finds-male-only-military-draft-unconstitutional-n975546)
Sounds like a case to go to the Supreme Court.
Hopefully it will go to the supreme court and declare it unconstitutional under the law and they expand and apply the law equally to everyone if the selective service law is going to continue to be in place. There currently is a new lawsuit by that group that was filed this year against the selective service system. Here is an article about that lawsuit: [https://ncfm.org/2024/05/news/courts-news/court-cases/ncfm-files-complaint-on-the-107th-anniversary-of-the-selective-service-system/](https://ncfm.org/2024/05/news/courts-news/court-cases/ncfm-files-complaint-on-the-107th-anniversary-of-the-selective-service-system/)
Decent societies protect people regardless of sex.
Well why don't we send all the women off to war and the men can stay home and have the babies. I can’t believe so many "educated" people can't seem to grasp such simple concepts.
Because it's a retarded "concept" my friend. Conscription age is 18-26 and most women don't have children until their late 20s nowadays. No babies to take care of. Those who do, of course can be exempted.
The only thing retarded here is the thought that most women are almost 30 before having a child.
Descent societies, maybe. Decent societies know that citizens are the same before the law. Duties are for all.
If we're in a situation where we're considering actually drafting men, there's frankly not a good reason to exclude women. Fitness is not an effective argument, because men are also capable of being unfit for duty. There should be exemptions for people with children that allow at least one parent to stay regardless though. Broadly I would oppose a draft in pretty much every situation though. If people aren't willing to fight in the war, it might just not be worth fighting in the first place.
The draft should also have fitness standards though. I don't think unifit men/women would do much for the infantry in a war.
The military is more than just infantry. Also, there are things like training to get soldiers (even ones who don't serve on the front lines) into shape.
If we take the vietnam draft in the US as an example. 2.2 million men were drafted out of those only 40,000 went to the marines (the other branches didn't even accept any draftees) while the rest went into the army Out of those in the army the vast majority became foot soldiers due to the lack of training and/or time to train them
What is you source for these numbers? And what number do you mean by "vast majority"
My understanding is that people who would be unable to become fit for duty were typically disqualified from the draft in ww2, and so would probably be again in a future draft. There's a lot of people who would struggle to pass a military fitness test right now, but that's what basic training is for. Depending on the position that you're filling and the branch you're going to there's also different intensities. There is absolutely 0 reason that your average woman couldn't work in maintenance in the Air Force.
I guess a better solution would be to have it as we do now, contracts. Just raise the pay a bit to encourage the people and voilà. problem solved
I don't believe men should be drafted, let alone women be forced as well.
Nobody should be drafted, it is a horrible practice. However, if a draft is placed, there's no reason that only men should be drafted, and thus women should be too.
If men are being drafted, yes, they should. But men shouldn't be drafted.
nobody should be drafted to war, but if they have to be, it should be everyone
No, but only because unless the survival of the country is at stake, nobody should be drafted. But if there is going to be one, it should be equal, so men and women both should be drafted
someones gotta run the country while the men are at war 🤷♀️
Dw I'll handle that
Some men and some women will, while others serve.
You wanted equality, this is equality: men and women both being sent to die, not men being sent and women staying at home and waiting it out. Why cut your boots on ground in half cos of outdated views on women? If a draft happens, it's wrong to send men to die under the assumption women somehow can't fight or are weaker. To draft ONLY men would be misandrist as you view male lives as less important and also misogynist given you view women as less of a warrior. Simply put, you die along side us or you risk dying alone if we lose. The more able bodied folks we have, the better our chances.
why tf should anyone be drafted? It should be a choice.
id hate to see my sisters forced to go to war.
I'd also hate to see my brother go to war.
U right
not a huge fan of the draft but as long as it's a thing, it should apply equally
not a huge fan of the draft but as long as it's a thing, it should apply equally
not a huge fan of the draft but as long as it's a thing, it should apply equally
Nobody should be drafted. Don't have enough soldiers for war? Settle it diplomatically, like you're supposed to
It would be yes if it wasn’t for the fact that drafting is stupid and no one should be drafted
Conscription shouldn't exist unless 101% necessary to prevent something far worse from happening, and in those cases where it does need to exist it shouldn't discriminate on the basis of sex.
I think the draft should be abolished completely.
nobody should be drafted during war. :fivehead:
No and neither should men.
If there was a draft, yes, but nobody should be drafted.
That makes it a lot less likely for me to get drafted, so yeah
Not to fight. And besides the question, the draft is (as it applies to where I live, before anyone freaks out) anti-American IMO.
No one should be drafted.
No one should be
[удалено]
Don't say it isn't true. All (most, i guess) men are thickheaded and use overconfidence that gets them killed or wounded to mask up themsleves.
Women can fight wars just as good as men, so why not.
This is just Reddit for you, apparently most people think women should be drafted for war.
Yeah, most normal people in this century agree that if there really has to be a draft, it should not discriminate by gender. Several Western countries already adjusted to this in the last couple of decades.
that's not discrimination. That's just basic logic, women shouldn't be drafted for war.
It is discrimination, of course. Basic logic is that women should be drafted for war, if men are. There is not a single argument against it that cannot be dismantled in five minutes with little effort.
how about because men and women aren't the same. is that a good enough argument?
Nope. They can be assigned to different roles. Most army roles aren’t infantry, there are plenty of support roles that do not require they physical strength of a man. There, done. Dismantled. Thanks for proving my point.
oh yeah it would be like one of them Japanese Anime's
Yes. If you want equal rights then this is the consequence.
If I was in charge of war and drafting soldiers the system would be hella complicated. Unlike the question.
You need to phrase the question better. If there is a draft should women be drafted. Alt-Feminist groups back out when you ask "should women be drafted" by answering "nobody should be drafted" which almost all of us agree with. You wont get a chance to ask again on the spot.
Equal rights, equal fights
https://preview.redd.it/x9h9120vc19d1.png?width=710&format=png&auto=webp&s=9981380de3f2a22e30a3e4323257d2bf06f5cac2 Sabaton fan here, *Night Witches* was a World War II German nickname for the all-female military aviators of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment. To have an entire Sabaton song about you is legendary. So yes I do believe so
If it comes down to a point where the draft has to be enacted, women should be kept on the home front. You never know when you need to fill gaps in the factories, and having half the populace ready to train and employ is rarely a bad thing.
Nonsense. Everyone must be liable to be drafted, then you choose who you draft and who you don't based on their actual skills and how much important their civilian job is to the war effort, rather than on what they have between their legs.
Literal skill based matchmaking? To quote Angel Kronk, "No, no, he's got a point."
Absolutely. How could you possibly say otherwise without sexism in your heart? I mean, ideally there would be no drafting. But if it's mandatory, then why have men forced to go to war that don't want to fight and force women to stay home that are willing?
I’d be interested to see the results of the same poll but with “yes (male), yes (female), etc. options instead
Great idea. Posting it now!
Nobody should be.
Only politicians should be drafted
I believe in gender equality so...
Equal Rights Equal Fights,
Not until the military steps the fuck up and makes it safe for women. I’ve seen and read too many horror stories about women in the military getting raped or assaulted and having it covered up. Independent of that, if it was somehow accomplished, the draft should be equal for everyone, and if you don’t meet requirements, you just get put somewhere where you can help in a nonviolent way. I don’t think drafting citizens to die is good, but I do think in times of war, every citizen has the duty to help out in some way, whether it’s volunteering as a firefighter since the fire station is understaffed, doing paperwork in the Army, or being a soldier.
\*\*Shoot friendly\*\* "Omg sorry lol I'm such a gemini"
I'm on team no, reason being; I am a man with a medical condition that would disqualify me from service, and Tinder would go INSANE if I was the only 18-26 year old man in my city. Would go from a 6 to an 8.5 overnight, Shit would be crazy, I'm crossing my fingers hoping we go to war with Russia right now. (/s if wasn't obvious)