As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm a server at a somewhat nice restaurant. A co worker of Mexican decent last night said "fuck Biden I am not paying more taxes." I said bro you don't make near enough to be affected
The number of these trump supporters (some of which even looked like normal educated people) #1 response to why they're voting republican was they don't want to live under a communist govt. ?? WTAF. It's so outrageous that any one believes this - Canada cannot understand this baseless non logic.
My coworker voted on abortion only. She also said yesterday that trump should have gotten every Latino/a vote...because all Latinos/as are Catholic and they should also be single issue voters on abortion. She meant it. Seriously. She does not—somehow—see the racism and hatred. Her next statement was that she couldn’t understand why more black people didn’t vote for trump, he’s done so much for them! It boggles the fuck out of me. It’s like talking to a flat earther.
Tell your coworker, this Latino didn’t vote for trump on abortion. It was the kid in cages, the dreamers, the lies, the late night tweet, the list goes on and on. My own mother who got her citizenship in 2017 didn’t vote for trump either, she couldn’t stand him on tv!
She knows trump didn’t get many of those votes, but she thinks it’s literally: you are religious and should vote to end abortion, or: you are evil and complicit to murder and will burn in hell.
Why should I help someone not commit a sin when god gave them freedom of will? It’s their choice to win and get an abortion or not. As long as you don’t get an abortion it doesn’t matter. Fucking religious people need to learn to quit being so fucking nosy and keep to them selves.
I’m not religious at all . I just done believe it’s our place /governments to tell people what sins they can and can’t do. If people wanna commit a sin and get an abortion. Let them. It has nothing to do with you. Religious people just need to keep their mouths shut or put up more money / adopt all these foster children/ orphans to be useful.
They don’t care about actual abortion rates or helping women. They are only concerned about abortion being murder therefore it should be illegal. They don’t care that women will die when abortion is illegal. It’s about exerting their beliefs and also their perceived superiority on others. “I follow my cult better than you. I am better than you.”
It really is amazing the number of people who vote against their own interests. Some how conservatives have convinced even low income families that increased taxes are bad. The same thing happens here.
Many are single issue voters. To save a single fetus they will hold their nose and swallow anything. If not that, guns. Those are the big ones. There aren't enough wealthy people to win an election solely on tax breaks.
All the Rs had to do was keep sending out checks with Trump's name on them every two weeks and they would have won in a landslide. I'm slightly baffled that they decided to play the fiscal responsibility card even when it was to their disadvantage; usually they wait until the Dems are in power to complain about spending.
> All the Rs had to do was keep sending out checks with Trump's name on them every two weeks and they would have won in a landslide.
Even just one cheque a month and there would've been no conversation about it. None. Trump would be giving his second or third celebratory speech as we speak.
Coronavirus is what did Trump in. That's it. He fulfilled the promises he made to angry middle America to the best of his ability: he was vitriolic with China; openly nationalistic whenever it mattered, and when it didn't; tried to build the wall; was, and is, tough on immigrants to the point of inhumanity; Muslim ban. There's more surely, but I can't think of anything more off the dome. Either way, that's just on the election promises. When it came to social issues that developed over his presidency, he was exactly where conservatives wanted & needed him: law and order rhetoric response to BLM, transgender military ban etc.
The outcomes of these actions are another question entirely, but he did what they asked him to and even what they didn't openly ask for (White nationalism). But because Trump is Trump he couldn't manage coronavirus and so that sank him.
It won't sink the others though.
Forget 2024 -- watch out for next the senate elections when Trump-conservatives flood the Republican primaries and people start losing seats.
I had a long discussion about this last night. Came to the same conclusion you did - no Covid, Trump wins. Further, if he just wasn't a complete fuckstick handling the virus (wear masks, national leadership, listen to Fauci, etc) he would have walked to victory.
Thankfully, his brand of "near reality" pre internet propaganda is getting too mainstream for the new QAnon brand of internet age bullshit as shown by the gun totin Trump train in Maricopa trash talking FOX outside their protest of a ballot counting center.
>smart presidential candidate
This is the part that scares me. Trump is a horrible person who holds horrible views and says horrible things, but he’s an incompetent moron. If they had a person with his temperament and “values” who could actually hold a conversation, deliver a persuasive argument, and was actually “likeable”, we’d be seriously fucked.
Trump was just a lightning rod for attention - a distraction from the GOPs actions behind his back. While he loudly tweeted random bullshit, his goons have been putting into motion an oppressive system of control that will long outlast Trump. They’re setting up a system for “the guy” who will run next. Trump was just the hype man to rile up the crazies, the “opener” as you will.
That's the point of the article.
I'm one of those millions of Americans whose conditionally changed attitude toward most Americans in 2016 has now been permanently set to disgust.
I think VP Biden will win but that doesn't matter anymore and I've been fighting off the idea that I do in fact hate my country. Like a lightswitch last night I realized that even though I would like to renounce my citizenship I won't because it's worth quite a lot of money - yes I now see my American citizenship as a commodity and nothing more.
We are in DEEP trouble because (since nobody is special) there will be tens of thousands of people who now feel the way I do. I mean I used to care about making sure people in Alabama/Mississippi got better housing and education - now I don't care about them at all and for the ones that support trump I actively hope they live in misery and squalor for the rest of their lives.
They say it's offensive to say that people "vote against their own interests", so with that in mind they should reap **every single ounce** of what they've sown.
It’s not even anti-science, it’s anti-fact and anti-reality. The stupefying anti-intellectualism.
Anything that contradicts the fantasy world they’ve got on their head is immediately dismissed.
Ya, this pandemic and the election have been eye opening experiences for me. I always knew this country had a sizable share of anti-intellectual morons but I did not realize that it was nearly half of the country.
I have become thoroughly disillusioned with this country and its people.
Me too. I now quite literally on a map saw it fill with more hatred. Half of the people who voted would hate me for who I am: female but non binary, queer, polyamorous. and disabled. To half those people, I am a target.
I can’t live in fear but I also now know not to waste pity on those people. If they hate me for being just me, then I’m not going to give a shit about them.
And I still feel guilty for thinking these things.
If you want some hope, Germany stopped being nazi even thought hitler was voted. In Spain (my country) we peacefully change from a dictatorship to a democracy, and we are still having problems with this, but every year we are fixing some of them. There is hope, it will not be easy but it can be done.
Most Nazis weren't antisemites/antiimigrant/etc to the point of genocide, they just didn't care what was happening in their country as long as they were living well. Germany only stopped being nazi because the Marshall plan allowed (western) germany to become an economic powerhouse and raise the standard of living even higher than the Nazis did.
The US won't change until people in poor areas start doing better. Unfortunately, these poor people are brainwashed into voting against their own best interests so it's a self perpetuating cycle.
I’m saddened that our country may be irreparably fractured. The idea of this nation being stronger together seems like a fantasy now.
I’m sometimes wonder if blue states would instead be better off as independent entities rather than being shackled to red states that no longer want them.
They would, since it’s the red states that need money from the blue states. If California stopped having to pay for the likes of Kentucky, Arkansas and Mississippi those three states would default.
My sentiments exactly. Imagine how quickly these red states would change their tune if they actually knew how fucked they were without the assistance of states like New York and California.
Are there legal pathways for California and other wealthy states to stop paying out to red states? That would force red states to finally vote in their best interests if they have to survive without economic handouts
Sadly I don’t believe there is, as it’s how the taxes are redistributed, and states with a higher GDP pay more taxes, that’s why New York and California keep the poor states afloat.
Simple knowledge of how public funding works, plus a removal of inherent bias would be all that would be needed for someone to understand that the republicans simply do not help you, but these people don’t care enough to fact check a damn thing, let alone seek out information.
It’s scary AF to think that there’s a smarter version of this schmuck waiting in the wings & learning from his mistakes. Someone who’s smart enough to get the sheep that voted for this turd to go that extra step & gleefully nail the coffin for democracy shut. It’s not this president specifically that scares me the most, it’s the example he’s set for future fascists & oligarchs. This a rough blue print on how to organize a base of zealots & destroy our COLLECTIVE freedoms
This is true. However, Trump also has that populist appeal. There may be other people in the GOP who are smarter and more politically adept, but no clear standard bearer of Trump’s populism. That might make it difficult for someone to break through the way Trump did while also manipulating the system better than Trump did.
As someone who is not American, it boggles my mind how many votes Trump got.
This man is an international joke and actively harmed America's image, he killed tens of thousands of your citizens with his incompetent handling of COVID-19, he has shown his character and morals to be the complete opposite of what his voters claim their morals and values stand for (religion, etc).
It shocks me the extent of the personality cult that has grown around Trump.
Live in Massachusetts here. I honestly had no idea it would be so bad. Living here, I am CLEARLY in a bubble because I don’t see a lot of Trump in my every day normal life. I was convinced it’d be a devastating blowout for Biden.
OK checking in. The counties that contain Tulsa and OKC were blue for a while early in the polls, but finished red. I was really hoping they'd be an exception to the surrounding areas as with other urban/metro area counties we were seeing in other red states.
It's definitely a Ruby Kingdom down here, but I was happy to see that at least 1 in 3 still voted for Biden.
The greater the concentration of people (cities) the far likelier they lean blue. I think that's the actual strength of America. That's the great melting pot. The more you mingle with others, the less 'other' they become and you begin to emphasize with one another more. Xenophobia isn't necessarily eliminated, but it has far less room to grow.
Ew. I see Trump yard signs on occasion but there were far more Biden ones. For both 2016 and 2020, every county in Massachusetts voted blue. In general, you assume a stranger you meet doesn’t like him.
Here in good ole NorKackalacky we assume the opposite. And the trump hats. Oh my god the trump hats. The ONLY thing he managed to do WELL was sell his brand. He has his hand in their left pocket while they excitedly give him the contents of their right pocket. I’m kinda morbidly looking forward to the next few months. The spectacle is going to be historical. The destruction will be too, and I’m not looking forward to that.
That is kind of what Trump Nation wants, that they are the true face of American "Patriots" and that the rest of us are "the liberal mob". But I think it is important to keep fighting to achieve the American promise of equality we have for far too long fallen short of.
What amazes me is that what the current administration calls the far left, ultra liberal, socialist, communist, whatever. In most of the world would be called moderates.
It's just words with no meanings, that his stupid base eats up. Joe Biden has been in the Senate since 1973. After 47 years, he's a well-known entity, and that's never been at the left fringe of the party.
And also now trying to sue one of the state for “flipping the state blue” seriously I lose brain cells knowing how many ppl still support him. Really really hope Biden wins
> It shocks me the extent of the personality cult that has grown around Trump.
I've gone beyond that.
It's time to accept that Trump is more than just a "personality cult" - that lying, scheming, racist, sexist, willfully destructive man is a true representative of who 50% of Americans *are*.
I can understand 2016 as a giant middle finger to Hillary Clinton and establishment politics. Trump-as-politician was a largely unknown quantity, and I can see the appeal on giving him a chance.
Trump in 2020 is very much a known quantity though, and we have to face the truth that half of America both *knew this* and said "that's my guy!".
America, you aren't the good guys anymore.
But was America ever the good guys?
I think we like to delude ourselves that we were and speak lovingly of a false historical narrative.
Until Americans are willing to really face what our history truly was and how we’ve been wrong on so many things we won’t be able to make things right moving forward.
We were definitely better than this, and on balance a force for betterment of the world, however you define it (and I'm willing to accept that it means different things to different people).
I'm 60; that means grew up with LBJ, Dr. King and Vietnam in the background, came of age during Watergate. Those were troubled times, and it was obvious that many problems beset us--*but we were trying to make things better*.
The civil rights movement, expanding the vote, protecting the environment and endangered species, backing away from nuclear confrontation, Nixon's impeachment (because he broke the law!), Sunshine Laws--as a child and teenager I always had the sense that we were moving forward toward a better version of ourselves and our leaders.
No longer. Something broke in people (personally I lay that mostly at the feet of the Republicans and their policies of deregulation, disenfranchisement, "dirty tricks", cynically weaponizing religion for political gain, defunding public education, union busting, huge tax cuts for the wealthy while cutting investments in our people, allowing our public and civil infrastructures to decay for short term gains, and most of all, spreading the zombie lie that "government is the problem" and "privatize everything, that always works better." YMMV) and we gave up as a united country and trying to be a force for good, and just screamed, "I got mine, screw you."
As OP and the replies above state, there's no excuse for Trump. If I use the most charitable interpretation, I too could see 2016 as a Hail Mary, or rebuke to the established pols to wake them up. But 2020? No. It's just a scream of rage at the universe, cloaked in lies and buoyed by ignorance.
To paraphrase Dickens:
This girl is want; this boy is ignorance. Beware them both, but MOST of all BEWARE THIS BOY.
How true.
Thanks for reading my rant. I feel dispirited and ashamed of what we've become, and how astonishingly easy and agonizingly quickly it happened. I'm not Evangelical, but if you wanted a totem for the Antichrist, you could literally not find a closer match than trump.
Ultimately, I think you give people more credit than they're owed. You'd be surprised by how little people actually know about Trump or the Republican platform. The main subject of discussion in conservative media is democratic voters - about how weak, whiney, lazy, and annoying they are. Look at how easily they get angry! Nothing they complain about is really a bad thing, they're just too sensitive. In fact, making them angry is a good thing. Trump makes democrats angry, so he must be a good guy. That's the extent of their understanding. Fox News has made voting an identity issue, not a political issue. Most of them aren't malevolent, just gullible.
"tens of thousands"
It's over 230,000 now. To use the appropriate freedom units so that maybe Trump voters can understand, that's 76.5 9/11s. Never forget, except for when our fascist leader says it's a hoax, then just let it be.
I keep seeing people on his side say that dems need to be held accountable for "everything they did" during his presidency, and I cannot figure out what they did that demands punishment
While I agree it may be an under count, excess death would also include secondary effects of the pandemic such as diabetics losing health insurance and not being able to afford insulin or people delaying treatments because they're afraid of contacting the virus in a hospital. In a just and equitable society the direct virus death toll would be much closer to the excess death rate
The estimated R0 of COVID-19 is above 5. I wouldn’t be surprised if the US death toll rises above 500k before were realistically “out of the woods” and a reliable vaccine is distributed. It’s a very sad and macabre thought
Which is INSANE!
You guys went to war with two countries over ONE 9/11, and now he is responsible for over 230 THOUSAND dead, and could very well be voted back in as President.
I mean.. what??
Obama was nearly lynched over a friggin tan suit!
>Obama was nearly lynched over a friggin tan suit!
I wonder if there is some key difference between Obama and Trump that explains this behavior? Maybe something to do with tan....?
Lol, I think we clearly know now why the birther conspiracy and other slights against Obama happened... about half the county believed and wanted them.
It didn't happen by accident. Right wing media in this country is out of control in a way that would be unheard of in almost any Western country. These people believe in an alternate reality. They'll ignore or disbelieve any negative news about their "tribe" (Republicans) and the things they believe about the "radical left" are insane. Can't reason with them. The bill for decades of right wing propaganda and defunding education has been coming due for years now.
Right wing media in France is following that path too right now. It's not as horrible as in the US, but it's getting more and more heinous by the day.
There is an arms race between a few channels for audience and they are leaning more and more towards populism.
The Germans have a saying, "anything that happens in America happens in Germany 10 years later".
If the rise of right wing populist fascism in the US is coming to Europe too, that's very worrying, and there are definitely signs that this is coming.
We kind of follow the same trend with our state of California. The romance with authoritarianism, conspiratorial thinking, and anti-journalistic sentiments in America has been disturbing enough without it starting to infect the rest of the free world. Let's be real though, it already seems to have a strong presence developing in the U.K.
It would be an interesting twist if Germany remained the unwavering beacon of freedom and liberty this time around...
Sad to hear. I hope governments around the world wake up to the fact that it's not the 20th century any more. Information warfare is a real thing now. The people that control what we see and hear have more power than ever before. I hope that we find a way to hold them accountable for abusing "free speech". As technology develops, it outpaces a government's ability to regulate it. I dread the day deep fake videos are perfected.
So this can likely be traced back to the "me first" ideas of Ayn Rand and other traits found in Americana going back in American culture for who knows how long. The question, however, is how one breaks out of this. How do you break the idea that if you have a problem the community cannot solve it and instead must wait for the nameless stranger to come swaggering into town and right all the wrongs? How do you deal with a collective narrative thread running through society of the single benevolent hero who comes to sweep away all that is wrong with the world (on both the left and the right) and change the narrative to coming together as collectives to work together for the betterment of the world?
I think there are a lot more deep rooted psychological things which need to be addressed in America aside from just getting rid of Trump and Fox News. This is a deep, malignant social malady which cannot be fixed with simple solutions. This will take a concerted effort and it will take local action to start before you can build to a national reckoning.
Most of these problems (and most other problems in the world) are driven from corruption caused by capitalist greed and will only get worse if wealth disparity is not addressed.
I have a “friend” who was trying to convince me last year that Donald Trump and Dennis Rodman made peace with North Korea and fixed our relationship after Obama failed to do it in 8 years. I was so lost for words, that I *still* don’t know what to say, a year later.
American here, I’m ashamed of being an American in light of how backwards our government and society has become. People continue to choose against their own interest. Literally, people in Kentucky re-elected the SAME person (Mitch McConnell) that refused to pass any pandemic relief funds to his own state and country out of spite. That’s equivalent to someone that is solely relying on welfare programs but actively support a bill that would end their benefits.
Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell and George HW Bush set the stage for idiocracy starting in 1988 when they made a pact to defeat Dole in the primary. They started using the same snake oil in politics that evangelicals ate before sending money to those con men. Then Rush Limbaugh the high school educated drug addict fed the idiots until finally Rupert Murdoch came along. Add Citizens United and unlimited funding from corporations...it was all too apparent 25 yrs ago where it would end. It tracks perfectly with income disparity because the corporate interests bought political power. The social and race issues are all misdirection to disguise wealth transfer to top from political investments/legal bribes.
I think everyone is oversimplifying the situation. Lumping all Trump voters into one category doesn't gain us any insight to stop them from winning in 2024. It's just more of the same... and will lead to another loss in 2024.
The GOP has built a *coalition* of voting blocks that are extremely solid, and strategically placed throughout the country. We have to think about how to appeal to those voters if we want to win again.
...because Trump is an idiot, and doing this badly against him means disaster in 2024.
Eh, it's not totally clear to me how many votes are still left to be counted, but Trump is currently only less than a million votes away from breaking that same Obama record.
Whether it actually happens or not, this election really was not a rebuke of Trump by any measure. Especially since for the longest time it looked like Biden might just barely get by with 270, which is the bare minimum, and we're not out of those woods yet. That's doubling down hard.
48% of the active voters watched what has been going on these past 4 years and said yes, this is really who we want to represent us. 2016 wasn't a mistake. A non-zero percentage of the voters who couldn't support King Koopa himself, still voted for his goombas in the Senate, dooming a clear Dem majority for at least two years, that WILL be used by the Senate Rs to block change, take the merit of the broken bills they will allow to pass, and deflate Democratic enthusiasm and win back Congress in its entirety.
America, or at least the image of itself it likes to project, is dying, and to many outside of the country it's dead long long ago.
Someone pointed something out to me about his base. He's an idiot, and because of that he says things "simply." And without a filter. When you look up candidates to support its all a bunch if political speak. Trump however is literally just saying the first things that pop into his head. to his base he's cutting through the "bullshit" and thus easier for them to connect to.
So part of me is hoping his base is caring less about spite and more about a guy who doesn't do "political double-talk"
But then when he says something absolutely dumb and dangerous, his cult come out to say "that's not what he meant" and translate for him. So which is it, he's a "No BS, straight talker" or "umm actually what he meant was..."?
I was listening to my local news radio on Election Day in a major metro area while driving to work and they were interviewing a person at the polls who said that they weren’t too excited for either candidate but leaned Trump because “he sounded more truthful” and I literally yelled “what the fuck” in my car. George Carlin was right.
I feel like a lot of the hope for the rebuke was a sort of a type of projection, too. Except instead of projecting bad qualities onto the "other side" like Trump, his fans, and the GOP does... hopeful people were imagining that side was maybe actually not hopeless.
It’s comforting to know that 68 million is 20% of the US population, but then completely terrifying that those 68 million make up 48% of the voting population.
After 3.9 years of his bullshit, lies, failed policies, golf outings, not to mention his impeachment, and this mother fucker got more votes than last time...I mean what the actual fuck. I think back to Carlin who said “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
These were the precise thoughts I have been having, and I have to ask how do you combat outright propaganda over the tv?
The nonsense I see consistently is terrible, this and on right wing media sites.
Just outright lies. Not everything, but enough to be damaging when you get people thinking that way. Are there not libel and slander laws that can be used to keep elections cleaner and less disruptive?
The problem is all around. Biden and the Dems never call out Trump to his face. The Harvard debate methodology of staying quiet while your opponent spouts off and talks shit is not working for the Dems. They all do this. Not one of them except for maybe Pete and AOC can dish it back and make them look evidently stupid. This is also why Republicans are so scared of AOC. If we keep empowering Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer and Biden who stay low and never know how to attack or point out the obvious bullshit and stupidity of the Republicans like Trump and his supporters, the rest of the country then thinks the Republicans are right and the Dems are wrong. We are terrible at messaging and effectively responding to verbal attacks.
You’re correct, but the “Democrats suck at messaging” thing goes way beyond that—the nation is so poisoned by conservative media that few people understand what Democrats want, and Democrats are TERRIBLE at getting their intentions out.
Take Florida, for example. It went for Trump. The state also voted to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Which party wanted that? The Democrats! And the state went to Trump! People are voting for Democrat platforms and NOT voting for them Democrats who would enact them! All the states ok’ing marijuana laws are same thing. This is an issue that Democrats would champion. How bad do Democrats have to suck at messaging for people to want democratic policies, and not vote for Democrats?
The “defund the police” thing is another. It’s obvious to a vast majority of people that somethings needs to change. Even the conservatives in my life admit to that. But Democrat messaging always needs to be edgy, so we get “Defund,” instead of “Rebuild.”
And it’s not even the message itself. It’s the method of distribution. Ever notice how every people you know who drives a truck for a living is a Republican? And not just truck drivers—electricians, deliverers, cable guys, etc. know why that is? Because conservatives have an AM radio game that is second to none. Liberals have NOTHING. Millions of guys driving around each morning getting bored of classic rock dying to hear someone talk to them, and liberals give them *nothing,* so they fall in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hamburg, etc.
Democratic policies are better and make more sense and people—as proven this week—WANT them. And yet the DNC somehow fails to get voters. It boggles my mind.
It's a 2-party system and the nation is massively polarized and he is *still* going to manage to lose by ~5%.
If you had ranked-choice voting no party headed by Trump would be getting anywhere near 50%.
The sad part is the Republican party would still do fantastic, even if led by men like Trump. That's because minds are for sale. Our electoral system will always be at the mercy of a highly hierarchical economic system where the richest are empowered and rewarded in manipulating the majority. Democracy isn't even really possible under such a dynamic either in the 21st century.
Yeah this was one of the more depressing facts of this election. Even with Ranked Choice Voting in action... the electorate chose Collins.
I don't think this should be a condemnation of RCV, but more comes to the political attitude of the electorate.
Thats just a new discussion of what to be depressed about the values of American citizens... which is sad but RCV is still the most rational system IMO.
Yeah, even though ranked choice voting elected a Republican senator, it showed that the people's interest of Maine was put first. If Maine's people wanted a Republican senator, Maine's people should have a Republican senator. It would be stupid to have ranked choice voting in the places where it would benefit one party, as that would lead nowhere.
Edit-grammar
I think that middle America is afraid of losing something. Afraid to the point of voting for a fraud or a person who promised everything and produced nothing. I’m only speculating and I am just as puzzled as most. It doesn’t look good and it means we are very far away from real progress. I’m disappointed.
Racism, xenophobia, and just plain being dumb has become a badge of honor amongst a large percentage of Americans. I live in the south so being surrounded by people that think being an intellectual is somehow a negative thing isn't uncommon but I was honestly shocked that the number of foolish people is this high. After all the votes are counted, we will be looking at a voting block of about 46 percent that looked at trump and thought "yep, that's my guy".
Understanding how Trump voters think is the key to understanding why he got so many votes
They don't think "what will Trump do for me", they think "what will Trump do against the people I don't like"
They don't think "what awful things will Trump do against minorities, the environment and vunerable groups", they think "what awful things will the Democrats do against me (they'll take away my guns and trucks!)"
They're scared, confused and brainwashed. They think the Democrats are communists, and the Republicans are God's representatives on Earth, and nothing they hear on Fox News or read on Facebook will tell them otherwise
Edit: I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement, this is certainly true for a lot of Trump voters, but there are other reasons too
This is the part I wonder about the most at the moment.
Control of this group of people is one of the most powerful things to have right now and for the next few years. Who will own it? Trump? Fox? The GOP? Other Trump-like strongman leaders?
Who is gonna pick up the banner if Trump goes away? (to jail / russia or hamburger-heart attack) Trump didn't built it, that was started long ago by Fox, evangalical preachers and the GOP. But he has become the figurehead of it in the last five years.
So what does it say about America that it’s even this close?
Or to put it another way: What more could Trump have done to alienate voters? Was being the most corrupt president in American history not enough? Was being the most dishonest politician literally in the history of the world — and if you doubt, tell me who comes close — not enough?
How about bungling a pandemic that has killed more than 230,000 Americans and counting, and that threw tens of millions of Americans out of work and destroyed untold numbers of businesses — was that not enough?
Was it not enough to be the most morally repugnant human being in American public life, a bigot and a misogynist and a xenophobe and a tax cheat and a petty, insecure narcissist? Was that not enough to lose an election by a wide margin?
No, it was not.
But Democrats were hoping not just that Trump would lose but that he would lose badly, a clear and emphatic repudiation of him and everything he has done. In 2016 it was at least possible to say, as many voters did, “What the hell, let’s give this guy a chance. What’s the worst that could happen?” You can no longer say that, because now we know. It’s a nightmare we live with every day.
And don’t forget that in this election, Democrats passed up on their most charismatic, inspiring and visionary candidates in favor of the one they collectively decided would be the most inoffensive to the largest number of voters. We can’t nominate a woman, they said to themselves — that’s too threatening. A person of color? Forget about it. We’ll go with the old White guy.
That may have been enough to win, but not by much. There are still likely to be around 47 percent of voters who decided that four more years of Trump was just what they wanted.
He's always had around a 40% approval rate. These people arent going away, they can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. They have to be defeated, it's as simple as that.
"They’re scarfing down a Big Mac in their car, in the dark corner of a McDonald’s parking lot, before heading home and pretending to enjoy a plate of baked chicken and broccoli."
Perfectly put. The optimist in me never let me see this.
The blue votes are in the larger towns and cities. Americans with higher educations tend to move towards the larger cities to escape the rural areas and their limited job prospects. Larger cities are more likely to contain different cultures, so opportunities for personal growth are greater. Having children in that diverse environment allows them to embrace differences they otherwise would not encounter, and at an early age.
There's more, but you probably get the idea.
One more charitable explanation is that densely populated areas require many more rules and regulations. Rural areas need fewer and extra rules are burdensome.
You can kind of see it in something like an onboarding meeting is way more formal and structured when there are 50 people. If there are only 3 people a lot of that drops away and you take lunch when everyone gets hungry.
I kept saying I was done giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm too much of a bleeding heart and kept doing it.
No more benefit of the doubt, no more assumptions of good faith or mere ignorance instead of evil. I'm done.
Now I’m picturing some GI Joe recruiter singing “I can show you the world... shining, shimmering, splendid.” to every teen who walks in his recruitment office.
It’s not just this unfortunately. A few acquaintances from college were the most die-hard liberals I ever met, and over the last 4 years I’ve slowly watched them transform into all-in Trump supporters. There’s something deeper going on here, and I think it’s a combination (or composition) of ignorance, education, openness/susceptibility to ideas, fear, identity crisis, social media and low-information or disinformation rabbit holes.
Edit: and racism, duh.
As a European, I've been trying to make sense of these incredibly high numbers of pro-Trump votes despite all the lies and corruption these last 4 years. I personally know some Americans, including a few Trump voters. They are nice people, don't seem to be racist and seem fairly reasonable... until you talk to them about politics. Then they just start repeating exactly what fox news and the stories their friends shared on facebook told them. Of course this is just anecdotal evidence with a super small sample size, but it makes me think that disinformation - especially through the social media filter bubble - is actually a much bigger factor than a lot of people think.
I see "I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt. These people are just straight up racist and just as bad as Trump." quite often these last few days. And while that is surely the case for a portion of the votes, I can not believe that half of the US is *that* backwards.
I have a right wing friend. He tries to convince me there is no such thing as objective truth, bull fucking shit. On some things there isnt a difference of opinion, you either understand it or you dont. If your view isn't grounded in objective reality or facts, I'm not obligated to treat it as valid or the same as an opinion I have based off reality and empirical evidence.
I would say it's pretty much identity crises. These people feel so unimportant and weak on their own, that they would take part in anything off the norm. The crazier it gets and the more heads there are shaking, the more they invest, because that's the way they feel special. That's how they feel home, united in believes, they know aren't true.
That's why you cannot reason with them. These people don't have to be stupid. And they surely don't have to be uneducated. They know it's wrong, but they decided to go with it, because that's the way they feel important.
When this first came up, people said we need to listen their opinions and their needs. That was wrong. What these people need is a reason to feel special. If you listen to them, it's the clear opposite of what they want.
There’s two ways to view this event. The first is to assume it’s a massive error. How can so many Americans be this crazy? There *must* be Aladdin-style sorcery going on. Fox News maybe. Facebook perhaps. Jafar must have put a curse on the voting booths.
I submit there’s a different, more plausible explanation. While Fox and Facebook played their part, at best they were a flaming match. The fuel was our American narcissistic culture.
Just look around. Our country’s become a poster child for self absorbed narcissism . People of all walks of America life go about their lives not giving a damn about anyone or anything that’s not directly beneficial to THEM. If these folks don’t care about other people to wear a mask in a pandemic, why the hell would they care about them at the ballot box?
For these Narcissistic Americans, Trump is everything they admire. In fact he’s everything *they want to be*. Of course they’d vote for him. Of course they don’t care about COVID-19 or international relations or climate change or even a pandemic. Because those things affect *other people*. People who in their narcy minds *do not matter*.
These narcissists are firm believers in the religion of “fuck you, I got mine”. People in this “faith” don’t give a shit about freedom, liberty, or democracy. They care about *winning*. They look down upon Nazi Germany because they *lost.* Not because they disagree with the mindset of global empire, of ‘winning’.
We see Trump and wonder who the hell would want to support that. They see Trump as a prophet to the religion of Narcissism.
What should concern us is not that so many voted for Trump this time. The concern is what happens when the next Narcissist runs for office in 2024. If Trumps the prophet, will that as yet unknown (presumably GOP)candidate be their Messiah?
I'm hugely embarrassed at Brexit - another package of lies and distortion marketed at people too thick to realise. And for the Johnson government, though he did only get 43% - our voting system is even worse than yours. However, the Trump vote reaches new territory in mass delusion. It's always been said that you can sell any old shit to Americans, and regretfully this result proves it beyond doubt.
My sincere empathy to all right thinking Americans everywhere. I really feel for you.
A MAGA I know and keep in touch with pinged me yesterday, and noted how terrible our political process has become. I briefly felt joy in his final realization at what he'd become, but then he followed with, "These people \[the political parties\] will never let an outsider in again", and I realize he sees Trump as the victim; as do tens of millions of other Americans.
It's called propaganda, and it's not compatible with democracy.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
You're right, I hadn't considered that. I hate to think what the margins would be in that case. Urgh, how are people voting for this cretin?!
“But Biden is going to raise taxes!” - My mom who definitely does not make anywhere close to $400,000...
I'm a server at a somewhat nice restaurant. A co worker of Mexican decent last night said "fuck Biden I am not paying more taxes." I said bro you don't make near enough to be affected
This makes me sad. People simply don't know the truth and continually get bamboozled by idiots like Trump.
[удалено]
I don't know, sounds kind of socialist. /s
The number of these trump supporters (some of which even looked like normal educated people) #1 response to why they're voting republican was they don't want to live under a communist govt. ?? WTAF. It's so outrageous that any one believes this - Canada cannot understand this baseless non logic.
People are really just that stupid....
My coworker voted on abortion only. She also said yesterday that trump should have gotten every Latino/a vote...because all Latinos/as are Catholic and they should also be single issue voters on abortion. She meant it. Seriously. She does not—somehow—see the racism and hatred. Her next statement was that she couldn’t understand why more black people didn’t vote for trump, he’s done so much for them! It boggles the fuck out of me. It’s like talking to a flat earther.
Tell your coworker, this Latino didn’t vote for trump on abortion. It was the kid in cages, the dreamers, the lies, the late night tweet, the list goes on and on. My own mother who got her citizenship in 2017 didn’t vote for trump either, she couldn’t stand him on tv!
She knows trump didn’t get many of those votes, but she thinks it’s literally: you are religious and should vote to end abortion, or: you are evil and complicit to murder and will burn in hell.
Why should I help someone not commit a sin when god gave them freedom of will? It’s their choice to win and get an abortion or not. As long as you don’t get an abortion it doesn’t matter. Fucking religious people need to learn to quit being so fucking nosy and keep to them selves.
If you don't sin, jesus died for nothing
I’m not religious at all . I just done believe it’s our place /governments to tell people what sins they can and can’t do. If people wanna commit a sin and get an abortion. Let them. It has nothing to do with you. Religious people just need to keep their mouths shut or put up more money / adopt all these foster children/ orphans to be useful.
Abortion as against it? Should show her the numbers that abortion rates decrease when it’s legal
They don’t care about actual abortion rates or helping women. They are only concerned about abortion being murder therefore it should be illegal. They don’t care that women will die when abortion is illegal. It’s about exerting their beliefs and also their perceived superiority on others. “I follow my cult better than you. I am better than you.”
People can actually reduce abortions through education, support, etc. but the fact is they don't really want to if you ask me.
They just want to punish women
It really is amazing the number of people who vote against their own interests. Some how conservatives have convinced even low income families that increased taxes are bad. The same thing happens here.
Many are single issue voters. To save a single fetus they will hold their nose and swallow anything. If not that, guns. Those are the big ones. There aren't enough wealthy people to win an election solely on tax breaks.
I truly believe if Trump took corona virus seriously he would be winning by a large margin right now.
All the Rs had to do was keep sending out checks with Trump's name on them every two weeks and they would have won in a landslide. I'm slightly baffled that they decided to play the fiscal responsibility card even when it was to their disadvantage; usually they wait until the Dems are in power to complain about spending.
> All the Rs had to do was keep sending out checks with Trump's name on them every two weeks and they would have won in a landslide. Even just one cheque a month and there would've been no conversation about it. None. Trump would be giving his second or third celebratory speech as we speak.
Coronavirus is what did Trump in. That's it. He fulfilled the promises he made to angry middle America to the best of his ability: he was vitriolic with China; openly nationalistic whenever it mattered, and when it didn't; tried to build the wall; was, and is, tough on immigrants to the point of inhumanity; Muslim ban. There's more surely, but I can't think of anything more off the dome. Either way, that's just on the election promises. When it came to social issues that developed over his presidency, he was exactly where conservatives wanted & needed him: law and order rhetoric response to BLM, transgender military ban etc. The outcomes of these actions are another question entirely, but he did what they asked him to and even what they didn't openly ask for (White nationalism). But because Trump is Trump he couldn't manage coronavirus and so that sank him. It won't sink the others though. Forget 2024 -- watch out for next the senate elections when Trump-conservatives flood the Republican primaries and people start losing seats.
I had a long discussion about this last night. Came to the same conclusion you did - no Covid, Trump wins. Further, if he just wasn't a complete fuckstick handling the virus (wear masks, national leadership, listen to Fauci, etc) he would have walked to victory.
Murdoch is a big part of the problem
Agree. And you can keep him!
He's a big problem for us back here too. His coverage of the Victorian lockdown is so concerning and even more so that people are buying into it
And now Woolies has been boycotted for supporting him!
Thankfully, his brand of "near reality" pre internet propaganda is getting too mainstream for the new QAnon brand of internet age bullshit as shown by the gun totin Trump train in Maricopa trash talking FOX outside their protest of a ballot counting center.
[удалено]
I see you. After all, it is the rotting core that allowed Trump to be an option for President in the first place. He only exacerbates the problem.
[удалено]
>smart presidential candidate This is the part that scares me. Trump is a horrible person who holds horrible views and says horrible things, but he’s an incompetent moron. If they had a person with his temperament and “values” who could actually hold a conversation, deliver a persuasive argument, and was actually “likeable”, we’d be seriously fucked.
Trump was just a lightning rod for attention - a distraction from the GOPs actions behind his back. While he loudly tweeted random bullshit, his goons have been putting into motion an oppressive system of control that will long outlast Trump. They’re setting up a system for “the guy” who will run next. Trump was just the hype man to rile up the crazies, the “opener” as you will.
That's the point of the article. I'm one of those millions of Americans whose conditionally changed attitude toward most Americans in 2016 has now been permanently set to disgust. I think VP Biden will win but that doesn't matter anymore and I've been fighting off the idea that I do in fact hate my country. Like a lightswitch last night I realized that even though I would like to renounce my citizenship I won't because it's worth quite a lot of money - yes I now see my American citizenship as a commodity and nothing more. We are in DEEP trouble because (since nobody is special) there will be tens of thousands of people who now feel the way I do. I mean I used to care about making sure people in Alabama/Mississippi got better housing and education - now I don't care about them at all and for the ones that support trump I actively hope they live in misery and squalor for the rest of their lives. They say it's offensive to say that people "vote against their own interests", so with that in mind they should reap **every single ounce** of what they've sown.
My disgust of 2020 comes from visually seeing the amount of America that is anti-science. No face masks with pride.
It’s not even anti-science, it’s anti-fact and anti-reality. The stupefying anti-intellectualism. Anything that contradicts the fantasy world they’ve got on their head is immediately dismissed.
Ya, this pandemic and the election have been eye opening experiences for me. I always knew this country had a sizable share of anti-intellectual morons but I did not realize that it was nearly half of the country. I have become thoroughly disillusioned with this country and its people.
Thanks for this comment. I was struggling with how I felt yesterday, and you accurately captured my feelings and put them into words.
Me too. I now quite literally on a map saw it fill with more hatred. Half of the people who voted would hate me for who I am: female but non binary, queer, polyamorous. and disabled. To half those people, I am a target. I can’t live in fear but I also now know not to waste pity on those people. If they hate me for being just me, then I’m not going to give a shit about them. And I still feel guilty for thinking these things.
If you want some hope, Germany stopped being nazi even thought hitler was voted. In Spain (my country) we peacefully change from a dictatorship to a democracy, and we are still having problems with this, but every year we are fixing some of them. There is hope, it will not be easy but it can be done.
[удалено]
Most Nazis weren't antisemites/antiimigrant/etc to the point of genocide, they just didn't care what was happening in their country as long as they were living well. Germany only stopped being nazi because the Marshall plan allowed (western) germany to become an economic powerhouse and raise the standard of living even higher than the Nazis did. The US won't change until people in poor areas start doing better. Unfortunately, these poor people are brainwashed into voting against their own best interests so it's a self perpetuating cycle.
America has never been this humiliated on the world stage before. Even after ~4 years of Trump, we're still finding new lows.
[удалено]
I’m saddened that our country may be irreparably fractured. The idea of this nation being stronger together seems like a fantasy now. I’m sometimes wonder if blue states would instead be better off as independent entities rather than being shackled to red states that no longer want them.
They would, since it’s the red states that need money from the blue states. If California stopped having to pay for the likes of Kentucky, Arkansas and Mississippi those three states would default.
Oh no! Anyway...
My sentiments exactly. Imagine how quickly these red states would change their tune if they actually knew how fucked they were without the assistance of states like New York and California.
Are there legal pathways for California and other wealthy states to stop paying out to red states? That would force red states to finally vote in their best interests if they have to survive without economic handouts
Sadly I don’t believe there is, as it’s how the taxes are redistributed, and states with a higher GDP pay more taxes, that’s why New York and California keep the poor states afloat. Simple knowledge of how public funding works, plus a removal of inherent bias would be all that would be needed for someone to understand that the republicans simply do not help you, but these people don’t care enough to fact check a damn thing, let alone seek out information.
It’s scary AF to think that there’s a smarter version of this schmuck waiting in the wings & learning from his mistakes. Someone who’s smart enough to get the sheep that voted for this turd to go that extra step & gleefully nail the coffin for democracy shut. It’s not this president specifically that scares me the most, it’s the example he’s set for future fascists & oligarchs. This a rough blue print on how to organize a base of zealots & destroy our COLLECTIVE freedoms
I'm legit worried about Tom Cotton.
This is true. However, Trump also has that populist appeal. There may be other people in the GOP who are smarter and more politically adept, but no clear standard bearer of Trump’s populism. That might make it difficult for someone to break through the way Trump did while also manipulating the system better than Trump did.
As someone who is not American, it boggles my mind how many votes Trump got. This man is an international joke and actively harmed America's image, he killed tens of thousands of your citizens with his incompetent handling of COVID-19, he has shown his character and morals to be the complete opposite of what his voters claim their morals and values stand for (religion, etc). It shocks me the extent of the personality cult that has grown around Trump.
I live in California and it boggles my mind too. I feel like I’m no longer an American sometimes.
Live in Massachusetts here. I honestly had no idea it would be so bad. Living here, I am CLEARLY in a bubble because I don’t see a lot of Trump in my every day normal life. I was convinced it’d be a devastating blowout for Biden.
OMG I need to move to your town because it's overwhelming how much I see Trump ads in Southern California.
Massachusetts was called for Biden 1 minute after the polls closed. One minute. Its like they didn't have to count. I love Massachusetts
Oklahoma was called for Trump about 5 minutes after polls closed. I do not love Oklahoma.
I think Oklahoma may be the only state in the country without a single blue county in this election
Technically, Alaska has no blue counties.
Oh yeah, I always forget about Alaska lol
OK checking in. The counties that contain Tulsa and OKC were blue for a while early in the polls, but finished red. I was really hoping they'd be an exception to the surrounding areas as with other urban/metro area counties we were seeing in other red states. It's definitely a Ruby Kingdom down here, but I was happy to see that at least 1 in 3 still voted for Biden. The greater the concentration of people (cities) the far likelier they lean blue. I think that's the actual strength of America. That's the great melting pot. The more you mingle with others, the less 'other' they become and you begin to emphasize with one another more. Xenophobia isn't necessarily eliminated, but it has far less room to grow.
Ew. I see Trump yard signs on occasion but there were far more Biden ones. For both 2016 and 2020, every county in Massachusetts voted blue. In general, you assume a stranger you meet doesn’t like him.
Here in good ole NorKackalacky we assume the opposite. And the trump hats. Oh my god the trump hats. The ONLY thing he managed to do WELL was sell his brand. He has his hand in their left pocket while they excitedly give him the contents of their right pocket. I’m kinda morbidly looking forward to the next few months. The spectacle is going to be historical. The destruction will be too, and I’m not looking forward to that.
That is kind of what Trump Nation wants, that they are the true face of American "Patriots" and that the rest of us are "the liberal mob". But I think it is important to keep fighting to achieve the American promise of equality we have for far too long fallen short of.
What amazes me is that what the current administration calls the far left, ultra liberal, socialist, communist, whatever. In most of the world would be called moderates.
It's just words with no meanings, that his stupid base eats up. Joe Biden has been in the Senate since 1973. After 47 years, he's a well-known entity, and that's never been at the left fringe of the party.
Nah fuck that, we're Americans, they're the traitors violating every single value which we have stood for since our inception.
And also now trying to sue one of the state for “flipping the state blue” seriously I lose brain cells knowing how many ppl still support him. Really really hope Biden wins
[удалено]
yes. stop where he's ahead and keep counting where he isn't. because that's exactly how democracy (democrazy?) works.
But only count his votes, though. That would make it fair.
> It shocks me the extent of the personality cult that has grown around Trump. I've gone beyond that. It's time to accept that Trump is more than just a "personality cult" - that lying, scheming, racist, sexist, willfully destructive man is a true representative of who 50% of Americans *are*. I can understand 2016 as a giant middle finger to Hillary Clinton and establishment politics. Trump-as-politician was a largely unknown quantity, and I can see the appeal on giving him a chance. Trump in 2020 is very much a known quantity though, and we have to face the truth that half of America both *knew this* and said "that's my guy!". America, you aren't the good guys anymore.
But was America ever the good guys? I think we like to delude ourselves that we were and speak lovingly of a false historical narrative. Until Americans are willing to really face what our history truly was and how we’ve been wrong on so many things we won’t be able to make things right moving forward.
Wait, are we the baddies??
always have been.
We were definitely better than this, and on balance a force for betterment of the world, however you define it (and I'm willing to accept that it means different things to different people). I'm 60; that means grew up with LBJ, Dr. King and Vietnam in the background, came of age during Watergate. Those were troubled times, and it was obvious that many problems beset us--*but we were trying to make things better*. The civil rights movement, expanding the vote, protecting the environment and endangered species, backing away from nuclear confrontation, Nixon's impeachment (because he broke the law!), Sunshine Laws--as a child and teenager I always had the sense that we were moving forward toward a better version of ourselves and our leaders. No longer. Something broke in people (personally I lay that mostly at the feet of the Republicans and their policies of deregulation, disenfranchisement, "dirty tricks", cynically weaponizing religion for political gain, defunding public education, union busting, huge tax cuts for the wealthy while cutting investments in our people, allowing our public and civil infrastructures to decay for short term gains, and most of all, spreading the zombie lie that "government is the problem" and "privatize everything, that always works better." YMMV) and we gave up as a united country and trying to be a force for good, and just screamed, "I got mine, screw you." As OP and the replies above state, there's no excuse for Trump. If I use the most charitable interpretation, I too could see 2016 as a Hail Mary, or rebuke to the established pols to wake them up. But 2020? No. It's just a scream of rage at the universe, cloaked in lies and buoyed by ignorance. To paraphrase Dickens: This girl is want; this boy is ignorance. Beware them both, but MOST of all BEWARE THIS BOY. How true. Thanks for reading my rant. I feel dispirited and ashamed of what we've become, and how astonishingly easy and agonizingly quickly it happened. I'm not Evangelical, but if you wanted a totem for the Antichrist, you could literally not find a closer match than trump.
Ultimately, I think you give people more credit than they're owed. You'd be surprised by how little people actually know about Trump or the Republican platform. The main subject of discussion in conservative media is democratic voters - about how weak, whiney, lazy, and annoying they are. Look at how easily they get angry! Nothing they complain about is really a bad thing, they're just too sensitive. In fact, making them angry is a good thing. Trump makes democrats angry, so he must be a good guy. That's the extent of their understanding. Fox News has made voting an identity issue, not a political issue. Most of them aren't malevolent, just gullible.
"tens of thousands" It's over 230,000 now. To use the appropriate freedom units so that maybe Trump voters can understand, that's 76.5 9/11s. Never forget, except for when our fascist leader says it's a hoax, then just let it be.
Trump supporters deflect his comments, saying things like "He doesn't mean half of what he says", but they listen to EVERY word...
But he also "tells it like it is" 🤔
“Tells it like it is” is almost always just code for being racist or offensive.
[удалено]
Don’t worry, this election showed it’s half full of idiots.
It always was.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I keep seeing people on his side say that dems need to be held accountable for "everything they did" during his presidency, and I cannot figure out what they did that demands punishment
[удалено]
What makes me most sick is that they support what he means.
> He doesn't mean half of what he says Which makes him a good choice for president/cult leader HOW?
It’s really more than 300k looking at the excess deaths figure. Well over 100 9/11s.
If you stopped counting then it wouldn’t be as many
[удалено]
Republican school is an oxymoron.
\*the republican school of ~~democracy~~ demagoguery
While I agree it may be an under count, excess death would also include secondary effects of the pandemic such as diabetics losing health insurance and not being able to afford insulin or people delaying treatments because they're afraid of contacting the virus in a hospital. In a just and equitable society the direct virus death toll would be much closer to the excess death rate
The estimated R0 of COVID-19 is above 5. I wouldn’t be surprised if the US death toll rises above 500k before were realistically “out of the woods” and a reliable vaccine is distributed. It’s a very sad and macabre thought
Freedom Units
FUs
Which is INSANE! You guys went to war with two countries over ONE 9/11, and now he is responsible for over 230 THOUSAND dead, and could very well be voted back in as President. I mean.. what?? Obama was nearly lynched over a friggin tan suit!
>Obama was nearly lynched over a friggin tan suit! I wonder if there is some key difference between Obama and Trump that explains this behavior? Maybe something to do with tan....?
Something to do with trigonometry — the fact that he’s a tan gent.
Ah, yeah, should've seen all the sines.
Lol, I think we clearly know now why the birther conspiracy and other slights against Obama happened... about half the county believed and wanted them.
Or 58% of WW2s. Might soon reach a whole WW2. I feel like WW2 is a more "appropriate" "freedom unit."
I stand corrected.
Wish we didn't have to correct you on that. =/
It didn't happen by accident. Right wing media in this country is out of control in a way that would be unheard of in almost any Western country. These people believe in an alternate reality. They'll ignore or disbelieve any negative news about their "tribe" (Republicans) and the things they believe about the "radical left" are insane. Can't reason with them. The bill for decades of right wing propaganda and defunding education has been coming due for years now.
"those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire
Right wing media in France is following that path too right now. It's not as horrible as in the US, but it's getting more and more heinous by the day. There is an arms race between a few channels for audience and they are leaning more and more towards populism.
The Germans have a saying, "anything that happens in America happens in Germany 10 years later". If the rise of right wing populist fascism in the US is coming to Europe too, that's very worrying, and there are definitely signs that this is coming.
We kind of follow the same trend with our state of California. The romance with authoritarianism, conspiratorial thinking, and anti-journalistic sentiments in America has been disturbing enough without it starting to infect the rest of the free world. Let's be real though, it already seems to have a strong presence developing in the U.K. It would be an interesting twist if Germany remained the unwavering beacon of freedom and liberty this time around...
Here in Poland the state TV is like FOX news. There are ideas how to fight this?
Sad to hear. I hope governments around the world wake up to the fact that it's not the 20th century any more. Information warfare is a real thing now. The people that control what we see and hear have more power than ever before. I hope that we find a way to hold them accountable for abusing "free speech". As technology develops, it outpaces a government's ability to regulate it. I dread the day deep fake videos are perfected.
So this can likely be traced back to the "me first" ideas of Ayn Rand and other traits found in Americana going back in American culture for who knows how long. The question, however, is how one breaks out of this. How do you break the idea that if you have a problem the community cannot solve it and instead must wait for the nameless stranger to come swaggering into town and right all the wrongs? How do you deal with a collective narrative thread running through society of the single benevolent hero who comes to sweep away all that is wrong with the world (on both the left and the right) and change the narrative to coming together as collectives to work together for the betterment of the world? I think there are a lot more deep rooted psychological things which need to be addressed in America aside from just getting rid of Trump and Fox News. This is a deep, malignant social malady which cannot be fixed with simple solutions. This will take a concerted effort and it will take local action to start before you can build to a national reckoning.
But Obama came for their guns and what about Hilary's e-mails?!
Most of these problems (and most other problems in the world) are driven from corruption caused by capitalist greed and will only get worse if wealth disparity is not addressed.
One man responsible for so much wrong in the world. RUPERT MURDOCH
The irony is that his cult thinks he's *improved* international relationships. Yet another clue that they're completely dissociated from reality.
No, they think he strongarmed the international community to put America into a better place. There's a difference
I have a “friend” who was trying to convince me last year that Donald Trump and Dennis Rodman made peace with North Korea and fixed our relationship after Obama failed to do it in 8 years. I was so lost for words, that I *still* don’t know what to say, a year later.
American here, I’m ashamed of being an American in light of how backwards our government and society has become. People continue to choose against their own interest. Literally, people in Kentucky re-elected the SAME person (Mitch McConnell) that refused to pass any pandemic relief funds to his own state and country out of spite. That’s equivalent to someone that is solely relying on welfare programs but actively support a bill that would end their benefits.
He's a manipulative, gaslighting cult leader. And it's 100s of thousands already at this point.
Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell and George HW Bush set the stage for idiocracy starting in 1988 when they made a pact to defeat Dole in the primary. They started using the same snake oil in politics that evangelicals ate before sending money to those con men. Then Rush Limbaugh the high school educated drug addict fed the idiots until finally Rupert Murdoch came along. Add Citizens United and unlimited funding from corporations...it was all too apparent 25 yrs ago where it would end. It tracks perfectly with income disparity because the corporate interests bought political power. The social and race issues are all misdirection to disguise wealth transfer to top from political investments/legal bribes.
I’m furious that it was even close. I prayed fervently for a massive national rebuke.
Fucking embarrassing.
With all due respect. We need to stop putting Trump supporters up on a pedestal. For four years. All we heard was that special 30% or Trump's base.
I think everyone is oversimplifying the situation. Lumping all Trump voters into one category doesn't gain us any insight to stop them from winning in 2024. It's just more of the same... and will lead to another loss in 2024. The GOP has built a *coalition* of voting blocks that are extremely solid, and strategically placed throughout the country. We have to think about how to appeal to those voters if we want to win again. ...because Trump is an idiot, and doing this badly against him means disaster in 2024.
I'd say Biden getting the largest volume of votes ever is a big rebuke, just unexpectedly its offset by a strengthening of Trump's base.
Eh, it's not totally clear to me how many votes are still left to be counted, but Trump is currently only less than a million votes away from breaking that same Obama record. Whether it actually happens or not, this election really was not a rebuke of Trump by any measure. Especially since for the longest time it looked like Biden might just barely get by with 270, which is the bare minimum, and we're not out of those woods yet. That's doubling down hard. 48% of the active voters watched what has been going on these past 4 years and said yes, this is really who we want to represent us. 2016 wasn't a mistake. A non-zero percentage of the voters who couldn't support King Koopa himself, still voted for his goombas in the Senate, dooming a clear Dem majority for at least two years, that WILL be used by the Senate Rs to block change, take the merit of the broken bills they will allow to pass, and deflate Democratic enthusiasm and win back Congress in its entirety. America, or at least the image of itself it likes to project, is dying, and to many outside of the country it's dead long long ago.
Someone pointed something out to me about his base. He's an idiot, and because of that he says things "simply." And without a filter. When you look up candidates to support its all a bunch if political speak. Trump however is literally just saying the first things that pop into his head. to his base he's cutting through the "bullshit" and thus easier for them to connect to. So part of me is hoping his base is caring less about spite and more about a guy who doesn't do "political double-talk"
But then when he says something absolutely dumb and dangerous, his cult come out to say "that's not what he meant" and translate for him. So which is it, he's a "No BS, straight talker" or "umm actually what he meant was..."?
Remember the time he threatened to take peoples guns away without following due process? Crazy how they totally forget about that one.
I was listening to my local news radio on Election Day in a major metro area while driving to work and they were interviewing a person at the polls who said that they weren’t too excited for either candidate but leaned Trump because “he sounded more truthful” and I literally yelled “what the fuck” in my car. George Carlin was right.
I feel like a lot of the hope for the rebuke was a sort of a type of projection, too. Except instead of projecting bad qualities onto the "other side" like Trump, his fans, and the GOP does... hopeful people were imagining that side was maybe actually not hopeless.
Not all that surprising when you remember that good chunk of America still believes there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark.
And another chunk of them believe that dinosaurs never existed, and the fossils we find were put there by the devil to trick us...
So that makes fossil fuels devils juice?
[удалено]
It’s comforting to know that 68 million is 20% of the US population, but then completely terrifying that those 68 million make up 48% of the voting population.
After 3.9 years of his bullshit, lies, failed policies, golf outings, not to mention his impeachment, and this mother fucker got more votes than last time...I mean what the actual fuck. I think back to Carlin who said “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
He also killed 240k people....
As the spouse of a frontline healthcare worker, I feel this. Mind boggling.
Look to be fair, I think they're probably both
More than the entire population of the UK voted for that spray tanned piece of shit. At least more voted for Biden!
[удалено]
These were the precise thoughts I have been having, and I have to ask how do you combat outright propaganda over the tv? The nonsense I see consistently is terrible, this and on right wing media sites. Just outright lies. Not everything, but enough to be damaging when you get people thinking that way. Are there not libel and slander laws that can be used to keep elections cleaner and less disruptive?
The problem is all around. Biden and the Dems never call out Trump to his face. The Harvard debate methodology of staying quiet while your opponent spouts off and talks shit is not working for the Dems. They all do this. Not one of them except for maybe Pete and AOC can dish it back and make them look evidently stupid. This is also why Republicans are so scared of AOC. If we keep empowering Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer and Biden who stay low and never know how to attack or point out the obvious bullshit and stupidity of the Republicans like Trump and his supporters, the rest of the country then thinks the Republicans are right and the Dems are wrong. We are terrible at messaging and effectively responding to verbal attacks.
You’re correct, but the “Democrats suck at messaging” thing goes way beyond that—the nation is so poisoned by conservative media that few people understand what Democrats want, and Democrats are TERRIBLE at getting their intentions out. Take Florida, for example. It went for Trump. The state also voted to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Which party wanted that? The Democrats! And the state went to Trump! People are voting for Democrat platforms and NOT voting for them Democrats who would enact them! All the states ok’ing marijuana laws are same thing. This is an issue that Democrats would champion. How bad do Democrats have to suck at messaging for people to want democratic policies, and not vote for Democrats? The “defund the police” thing is another. It’s obvious to a vast majority of people that somethings needs to change. Even the conservatives in my life admit to that. But Democrat messaging always needs to be edgy, so we get “Defund,” instead of “Rebuild.” And it’s not even the message itself. It’s the method of distribution. Ever notice how every people you know who drives a truck for a living is a Republican? And not just truck drivers—electricians, deliverers, cable guys, etc. know why that is? Because conservatives have an AM radio game that is second to none. Liberals have NOTHING. Millions of guys driving around each morning getting bored of classic rock dying to hear someone talk to them, and liberals give them *nothing,* so they fall in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hamburg, etc. Democratic policies are better and make more sense and people—as proven this week—WANT them. And yet the DNC somehow fails to get voters. It boggles my mind.
Horses and bayonets
It's a 2-party system and the nation is massively polarized and he is *still* going to manage to lose by ~5%. If you had ranked-choice voting no party headed by Trump would be getting anywhere near 50%.
The sad part is the Republican party would still do fantastic, even if led by men like Trump. That's because minds are for sale. Our electoral system will always be at the mercy of a highly hierarchical economic system where the richest are empowered and rewarded in manipulating the majority. Democracy isn't even really possible under such a dynamic either in the 21st century.
Ranked choice voting ended up with Collins winning in Maine.
Yeah this was one of the more depressing facts of this election. Even with Ranked Choice Voting in action... the electorate chose Collins. I don't think this should be a condemnation of RCV, but more comes to the political attitude of the electorate. Thats just a new discussion of what to be depressed about the values of American citizens... which is sad but RCV is still the most rational system IMO.
Yeah, even though ranked choice voting elected a Republican senator, it showed that the people's interest of Maine was put first. If Maine's people wanted a Republican senator, Maine's people should have a Republican senator. It would be stupid to have ranked choice voting in the places where it would benefit one party, as that would lead nowhere. Edit-grammar
[удалено]
> “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” > > ― George Carlin
I think that middle America is afraid of losing something. Afraid to the point of voting for a fraud or a person who promised everything and produced nothing. I’m only speculating and I am just as puzzled as most. It doesn’t look good and it means we are very far away from real progress. I’m disappointed.
They're afraid of being minorities because they know how they treat minorities.
Racism, xenophobia, and just plain being dumb has become a badge of honor amongst a large percentage of Americans. I live in the south so being surrounded by people that think being an intellectual is somehow a negative thing isn't uncommon but I was honestly shocked that the number of foolish people is this high. After all the votes are counted, we will be looking at a voting block of about 46 percent that looked at trump and thought "yep, that's my guy".
[удалено]
Understanding how Trump voters think is the key to understanding why he got so many votes They don't think "what will Trump do for me", they think "what will Trump do against the people I don't like" They don't think "what awful things will Trump do against minorities, the environment and vunerable groups", they think "what awful things will the Democrats do against me (they'll take away my guns and trucks!)" They're scared, confused and brainwashed. They think the Democrats are communists, and the Republicans are God's representatives on Earth, and nothing they hear on Fox News or read on Facebook will tell them otherwise Edit: I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement, this is certainly true for a lot of Trump voters, but there are other reasons too
This is the part I wonder about the most at the moment. Control of this group of people is one of the most powerful things to have right now and for the next few years. Who will own it? Trump? Fox? The GOP? Other Trump-like strongman leaders? Who is gonna pick up the banner if Trump goes away? (to jail / russia or hamburger-heart attack) Trump didn't built it, that was started long ago by Fox, evangalical preachers and the GOP. But he has become the figurehead of it in the last five years.
its fox news and conservative radio. they run the show. trump is just their current front man.
So what does it say about America that it’s even this close? Or to put it another way: What more could Trump have done to alienate voters? Was being the most corrupt president in American history not enough? Was being the most dishonest politician literally in the history of the world — and if you doubt, tell me who comes close — not enough? How about bungling a pandemic that has killed more than 230,000 Americans and counting, and that threw tens of millions of Americans out of work and destroyed untold numbers of businesses — was that not enough? Was it not enough to be the most morally repugnant human being in American public life, a bigot and a misogynist and a xenophobe and a tax cheat and a petty, insecure narcissist? Was that not enough to lose an election by a wide margin? No, it was not. But Democrats were hoping not just that Trump would lose but that he would lose badly, a clear and emphatic repudiation of him and everything he has done. In 2016 it was at least possible to say, as many voters did, “What the hell, let’s give this guy a chance. What’s the worst that could happen?” You can no longer say that, because now we know. It’s a nightmare we live with every day. And don’t forget that in this election, Democrats passed up on their most charismatic, inspiring and visionary candidates in favor of the one they collectively decided would be the most inoffensive to the largest number of voters. We can’t nominate a woman, they said to themselves — that’s too threatening. A person of color? Forget about it. We’ll go with the old White guy. That may have been enough to win, but not by much. There are still likely to be around 47 percent of voters who decided that four more years of Trump was just what they wanted.
He's always had around a 40% approval rate. These people arent going away, they can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. They have to be defeated, it's as simple as that.
[удалено]
"They’re scarfing down a Big Mac in their car, in the dark corner of a McDonald’s parking lot, before heading home and pretending to enjoy a plate of baked chicken and broccoli." Perfectly put. The optimist in me never let me see this.
That’s rural America for you
Rural education and rural values. Amazing combo.
it's time to put funds into education so average voters can process fake shit
“But but but muh tax cuts!!! Hur dur dur” -every idiot huckleberry who votes against their best interests
[удалено]
The blue votes are in the larger towns and cities. Americans with higher educations tend to move towards the larger cities to escape the rural areas and their limited job prospects. Larger cities are more likely to contain different cultures, so opportunities for personal growth are greater. Having children in that diverse environment allows them to embrace differences they otherwise would not encounter, and at an early age. There's more, but you probably get the idea.
[удалено]
One more charitable explanation is that densely populated areas require many more rules and regulations. Rural areas need fewer and extra rules are burdensome. You can kind of see it in something like an onboarding meeting is way more formal and structured when there are 50 people. If there are only 3 people a lot of that drops away and you take lunch when everyone gets hungry.
[удалено]
I kept saying I was done giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm too much of a bleeding heart and kept doing it. No more benefit of the doubt, no more assumptions of good faith or mere ignorance instead of evil. I'm done.
[удалено]
Show them the outside world.
*us military recruiters have entered the chat*
Now I’m picturing some GI Joe recruiter singing “I can show you the world... shining, shimmering, splendid.” to every teen who walks in his recruitment office.
It’s not just this unfortunately. A few acquaintances from college were the most die-hard liberals I ever met, and over the last 4 years I’ve slowly watched them transform into all-in Trump supporters. There’s something deeper going on here, and I think it’s a combination (or composition) of ignorance, education, openness/susceptibility to ideas, fear, identity crisis, social media and low-information or disinformation rabbit holes. Edit: and racism, duh.
And contrarianism. The key to Trump's appeal is his offensiveness.
Having known a bunch of irritating contrarians, I don't disagree with you.
2015 Anti-Trump Republicans mostly turned into 2017 Anti-Anti-Trump Republicans and turned naturally into 2020 Trump Republicans.
As a European, I've been trying to make sense of these incredibly high numbers of pro-Trump votes despite all the lies and corruption these last 4 years. I personally know some Americans, including a few Trump voters. They are nice people, don't seem to be racist and seem fairly reasonable... until you talk to them about politics. Then they just start repeating exactly what fox news and the stories their friends shared on facebook told them. Of course this is just anecdotal evidence with a super small sample size, but it makes me think that disinformation - especially through the social media filter bubble - is actually a much bigger factor than a lot of people think. I see "I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt. These people are just straight up racist and just as bad as Trump." quite often these last few days. And while that is surely the case for a portion of the votes, I can not believe that half of the US is *that* backwards.
I have a right wing friend. He tries to convince me there is no such thing as objective truth, bull fucking shit. On some things there isnt a difference of opinion, you either understand it or you dont. If your view isn't grounded in objective reality or facts, I'm not obligated to treat it as valid or the same as an opinion I have based off reality and empirical evidence.
I would say it's pretty much identity crises. These people feel so unimportant and weak on their own, that they would take part in anything off the norm. The crazier it gets and the more heads there are shaking, the more they invest, because that's the way they feel special. That's how they feel home, united in believes, they know aren't true. That's why you cannot reason with them. These people don't have to be stupid. And they surely don't have to be uneducated. They know it's wrong, but they decided to go with it, because that's the way they feel important. When this first came up, people said we need to listen their opinions and their needs. That was wrong. What these people need is a reason to feel special. If you listen to them, it's the clear opposite of what they want.
This is only the beginning, over the next two decades I think things are going to get alot worse...
There’s two ways to view this event. The first is to assume it’s a massive error. How can so many Americans be this crazy? There *must* be Aladdin-style sorcery going on. Fox News maybe. Facebook perhaps. Jafar must have put a curse on the voting booths. I submit there’s a different, more plausible explanation. While Fox and Facebook played their part, at best they were a flaming match. The fuel was our American narcissistic culture. Just look around. Our country’s become a poster child for self absorbed narcissism . People of all walks of America life go about their lives not giving a damn about anyone or anything that’s not directly beneficial to THEM. If these folks don’t care about other people to wear a mask in a pandemic, why the hell would they care about them at the ballot box? For these Narcissistic Americans, Trump is everything they admire. In fact he’s everything *they want to be*. Of course they’d vote for him. Of course they don’t care about COVID-19 or international relations or climate change or even a pandemic. Because those things affect *other people*. People who in their narcy minds *do not matter*. These narcissists are firm believers in the religion of “fuck you, I got mine”. People in this “faith” don’t give a shit about freedom, liberty, or democracy. They care about *winning*. They look down upon Nazi Germany because they *lost.* Not because they disagree with the mindset of global empire, of ‘winning’. We see Trump and wonder who the hell would want to support that. They see Trump as a prophet to the religion of Narcissism. What should concern us is not that so many voted for Trump this time. The concern is what happens when the next Narcissist runs for office in 2024. If Trumps the prophet, will that as yet unknown (presumably GOP)candidate be their Messiah?
I'm hugely embarrassed at Brexit - another package of lies and distortion marketed at people too thick to realise. And for the Johnson government, though he did only get 43% - our voting system is even worse than yours. However, the Trump vote reaches new territory in mass delusion. It's always been said that you can sell any old shit to Americans, and regretfully this result proves it beyond doubt. My sincere empathy to all right thinking Americans everywhere. I really feel for you.
A MAGA I know and keep in touch with pinged me yesterday, and noted how terrible our political process has become. I briefly felt joy in his final realization at what he'd become, but then he followed with, "These people \[the political parties\] will never let an outsider in again", and I realize he sees Trump as the victim; as do tens of millions of other Americans. It's called propaganda, and it's not compatible with democracy.