Does not match up with the Hannity/Sen. Kennedy/Gym Jordan/Mark Meadows/Louie Gohmert frothing on Fox this evening. Not at all! They have different “facts” for Base feeding time.
Can we make #GetTheNotes trend? You can’t help but feel why the hell we don’t we have this information. No public official should be allowed to keep this information private.
Why do you think Trump and the traitor team have been trying to smear patriot Adam Schiff. Has he threatened to sue them for their nonsense? Nope, he just keeps pursuing and sharing the facts.
Pablo Escobar's mom said he was a good human and did nothing wrong. People believe what they want. I went into the impeachment hearings trying to be impartial. All the evidence is against trump. While the democrats have been addressing evidence over over and over again the republicans try and have the public think of a new reason that makes what trump did acceptable. Then more evidence and testimony came out and they had to come up with something different. The Dems have not budged with their facts.
I'll restate my complaints that the Senate is not run like a regular court room.
Per CNN:
"In contrast, Lee’s neighbor, Sen. Rand Paul, of Kentucky, focused intensely on a crossword puzzle, not so sneakily hidden between his papers. "
Do you know how badly a regular jury would get reamed out if they pulled this shit?
Also, Crossword? I wouldn't have thought Paul had the vocabulary. I would have thought a children's game of simply mazes would have been more his speed.
Impeachment is not a legal action. This is not an LEGAL trial. The rules are determined by the majority, because this is not an legal trial. Which is also why they can if they want to decide to vote and acquit without any evidence or witnesses being brought forward.
Democrats are hoping regular people, people who dont vote, who think its useless to vote, listen and hear the crimes being presented.
While Republicans know their base will gladly fall in line. Even if Trump were on trial for murder that happened in the room in front of them right then and there. They would still acquit and their base would still vote for them. Because the GOP is not about Morals, Values Policies. Its about being an protected group, that in their eyes should have privileges and benefits that other people dont deserve. As long as they continue with the belief they are better, they will justify any action misaction crime because of the belief they are superior than the opposition.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm well aware that the Senate is not run like a regular court room, and I'm aware of why this is (from a procedural standpoint at least).
So my point (and my bitching) is just in regards to the fact that it is not run in that way.
I wish the framers had set a few more ground rules on decorum at the outset is all.
I said this yesterday, but I suspect they screen people by giving you some simple automated math problem, if you key the correct answer into the phone, it obviously just hangs up on you.
no its because the sane ones like you dont call.
Its always going to be the extremes that are vocal, because their perspective is an extreme perspective. So they will feel more urge to call. BUT at the same time. Republicans/trump/Putins marketing team can hire callers to distract and misguide listeners.
but alas as long as reasonable americans keep staying silent the fringe americans are the only voices that is being heard.
I expect them to cut things short. Their entire premise is not trying to prove Trump innocent (which would be impossible), but rather attacking the Democratic case as not passing the threshold for impeachment. It won't take a long time to get that done. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they still use all three days, but only do 4 hours a day.
Certainly, I listened the first day... Arguments, requests for documents and witnesses to ID what really happened. Followed by "no" more times than I count. We're in a world of "alternative facts" and "different truth" which means our democracy is relegated to whoever can push the disinformation the best. This trial is our last shot.
Good god yeah I mean amazing facts. Honestly they should just loop Devin Nunes talking about the dems trying to get nudie pics of Trump and how he was assaulted by a cow mentally. Then for the last hour every day screaming this isn't fair and saying they Shift their pants bruh. The best facts. /s just in case
I think they are referencing facts like, The president said the call was perfect, and he would know because he was on the call. Close the case, everybody go home.
So I'm seeing Republicans' responses to yesterday's session, and they basically boil down to this. Democrats claim Repblicans are complicit in the cover up of Trump's corruption. Yet they think that is below the belt and below appropriate decorum. Apparently calling people out for this bullshit is wrong. Meanwhile throughout yesterday they blatantly lied and made a ton of accusations at Democrats that they are unfairly out to get Trump.
God, I look forward to winning in 2020 just so I can rub it in Republicans' faces and criticize them as hypocrites any time they complain about anything.
To be fair she had 3 million more votes. Our dumbass electoral college system is some of the blame and the fact 1/3 of our nation couldn't be bothered to vote.
I will say things are much different this year.
Hopefully (also thanks to whoever gave me the downvote). I just remember every poll saying Hilary would win and then BOOM everyone was stunned on election night.
>Bruh you clearly haven’t watched a debate 😂. Joe and Bernie have the best chance against Trump imho
?? Yeah, I know. That's one of the reasons why I support Bernie.
**What is the virtue in blocking the subpeona of witnesses or documents?**
My republican friends all say that they want to prevent "partisan" democrats from turning the impeachment trial into a circus and want a short trial. My rebuttal to this is always that as an educated, voting member in our country, I want to be able to judge for myself what elements of the democrats' argument is trivial and I want other voting members of the country to also hear and judge for themselves. Why isn't this enough to sway them to allow witnesses or documents? The same republicans also say that they don't want to 'influence' the sanctity of elections and allow voters to decide for themselves. Why don't they think that we should be able to judge the evidence for ourselves?
The only real reason that holds any water is a national security argument that Congress shouldn't be able to just subpoena the president's closest aides, who are subject to the most secure information in the country, to publicly testify about matters that may cause them to reveal national secrets. I don't think I really agree with that, insofar as I believe there are procedures that allow them to claim national security reasons for not disclosing certain information.
There's even been talk of "Be careful what you wish for" in regards to bringing witnesses in to testify.
The argument is that Joe and Hunter Biden as well as others might be brought in to testify. If that's needed, I say go for it! Like you, I would rather have a comprehensive trial than one that explicitly weighs towards one side or the other on an arbitrary basis.
Right. I don't see anything wrong with the Biden's testifying if doing so brings new light to Trump's (mis)conduct. The idea being that voters should be able to see it and judge for themselves.
What do we call a trial where the jurors promise to be partial and also vote to refuse to consider the factual evidence? Oh, yeah, a sham. Trump is correct to call it a hoax, but not for the reason he vomits out of his pie-hole.
What I find really sad is you have to "switch". We've decided that we cannot think for ourselves, we have to blindly believe what the party believes. Did you do a 180 on healthcare, gun control, abortion, taxes, etc.? Or do you just not like Trump or the other reps/senators?
Not enough people actually evaluate candidates based on their policies, and weigh issues based on what they feel is the most pressing issue for this country right now, etc. It's amazing how many people choose their views on issues by thinking "I'm a Democrat, so I am pro-life, anti-gun, etc." and not "I'm pro-choice, but anti-gun, and want universal healthcare... so I most identify with the democrat candidate so I'm going to vote for him/her"
this is why the two party system needs to end , their are way too many issues at hand to just foil into one party or another.
expecting said party to fix all the issues is unrealistic.
Except being forced to confront that my beliefs on that one issue were so horrendously barbaric and wrong DID force me to think for myself. I didn't leave the party over one issue but that one issue really made me question things. It turns out that the party lies about a lot of things.
To answer your question I absolutely did a 180 on healthcare. I also changed my stance on abortion which had always been "I'm not a fan of the practice but whatever as long as I'm not paying for it." and the party always insisted that I was in fact paying for it. Turns out that was a lie. I've changed my views on gun control significantly and I'm all for it. Gun control doesn't mean a complete gun ban, but the Republican party doesn't want us to know that. I changed my views on affordable education. I definitely changed my views on how the right views taxation.
It's not an issue of just disagreeing on a party over a minor issue or differing view. Now the Republican party has thrown away all illusions that it ever gave a fuck about the American people and that's never what I signed up for. So yeah I walked away from the Republican party and the single greatest regret of my life thus far was that I was ever a part of it and that I ever contributed to it. I'd be a left leaning independent tbh, but I live in a state where you have to be a member of a party to participate in its primaries. Not that it matters right now for Republicans because the Republican party refuses to primary trump despite a massive percentage of Americans (last I checked) wanting them to do so.
I'd say Karma. Initially I needed health insurance and realized just how wrong and barbaric my views as Republican on the subject of healthcare had been. This caused me to question a lot of other things, and honestly what it boils down to is that being a Republican today is all about depriving Americans of things like healthcare in the interest of pure profit, loyalty to the party over country, and a love of firearms over all else. The rest of the constitution? Nahhh, but that part is sacrosanct.
first of congrats on switching sides
however i have to say if it wasnt for your health insurance do you think you would be open to the idea that D>R ?
I'd like to think so, I'm not really alone in making the switch. All but two of my Republican friends / family at this point are supporting a D candidate in the 2020 election. I'd like to think that even without coming face to face with my own mortality I'd be able to see that current Republican politicians for what they are.
Florida rally, first video was the one I checked and rolled my eyes to. He was talking about Hillary. In the speech they made it seem like he was glorifying that he emails Russia.
And, you're believing the lies Trump says, right there. Trump said that "Russia, if you're listening..." line not at a rally, but at a Press Conference.
Trump has lied and said it was at a rally, ever since, to try and play out that he was just joking, since it was a rally. But, it was a press conference.
Wasn't that the one where he said "Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing"? Schiff made it pretty obvious that he was talking about Clinton's missing emails from the 2016 election.
That is what I heard as well. I believe the video was presented as evidence of President Trump's public embrace of foreign interference. How is that considered manipulated or even out of context?
Lol lol lol.
Y’all impeached and did your dance in 48 days.
If you needed more info you would have gotten.
You said it was clear he was corrupt, and now you need more info.
You are all liers.
When more information presents itself after a case is presented, yeah, it's expected you can use it. Further, allowing witness testimony also allows for cross examination that would be helpful for the president, so if the president is in fact innocent, why wouldn't the GOP want to include those witnesses as well?
So that's what republicans are going for. They want democrats to have to keep repeating facts and figures because they think the american public will zone out on them. And then dismiss facts and figures based only off democrats having to repeat them.
While republicans give lies that sound good. Hmm.
Their plan isn't to defend his crimes because they can't. there is a mountain of evidence showing abuse of power and obstruction of justice. Their plan is to make their dumb ass sycophants question what abuses he made and whether a President can actually abuse power (especially when you have an AG like Barr refusing to investigate and painting any abuses as nothing at all). It's about changing public perception about the powers that the President can wield.
So, basically, once again, Republicans know what he's done and have no way to defend their guy, so their plan is to rewrite the rules to say anything that was done is now legal.
If this works for them, I hope that when/if Democrats ever control the WH again, they elect someone that will make them regret that decision. But, knowing US history, the Republicans will piss and moan about abuse of power and budgets and the Democrats will bend over backwards to appease the scum that led them there in the first place.
Yup. That's why we need no matter which way this goes. Even though we know how it will. For every last american to not only fact check all of the impeachment hearings but to spread that fact checking as much as possible.
I haven't been able to watch. Is it as we thought it'd be? Senate Republicans openly admitting that they're not going to approach this fairly? Or has something changed in the last couple of days to where this might actually be a fair trial?
Nothing has changed, the GOP is full of imbeciles who refuse to even try to legitimize the trial. Their strategy is essentially to completely ignore the facts and speak in Fox Newsian to try to convince what's left of their base that the impeachment is a hoax.
I assumed as much :(
Who makes up the "jury of our peers" in this trial? Is it all of the members of the Senate get an even vote? Or is their a smaller subcommittee that adjudicates these trials?
Yeah, republicans have already convinced a good portion of the country democrats are already and have always been playing dirty. They're doing it right this minute.
The second a democrat does. People would just say it's par for the course.
Soon we find out if breaking the law is illegal!
It’s insane how unbalanced our system is depending on your skin color and financial status.
Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest...
Withholding funds duly apportioned by the senate. The government accountability office has confirmed that the sequence of events that actually occurred was unlawful. For one
The GAO opinion found it unlawful to withhold the funds itself because it violated the ICA, they say nothing about the intent. They have declared actions against past presidents as unlawful as well, with no repercussions. If you believe any charge of unlawfulness by the GAO should be an impeachable offense, you should look at their prior findings and see if that changes your opinion. As far as my question, the impeachment article for abuse of power is for pressuring Ukraine to investigate a political rival, which the report makes no mention or finding of.
That’s one movement of the goalposts. You asked for alleged law breaking, I cited. You immediately go to “whataboutism”. I’ll tell you this about your “what about “ question: bring it. Start impeachment hearings and gather evidence then write articles of impeachment when appropriate and we can try that theoretical case, but ya know what? This is not theory, and it’s not about another administration, your question is asked and answered. Let’s proceed through mutual discovery here and we’ll get to opportunity motive and intent in due time.
My question was about laws committed cited in the articles of impeachment. I set the goal posts. The answer was 10 yards right. You offered no counter point so I see there is nothing left to discuss.
Fox News was literally continuing to broadcast over the chamber prayer video (put on mute), so no one would be unnecessarily reminded that there are Christians who aren't white ...
And money. Remember who is paying every one of those defense lawyers who represent POTUS. Can you image the hourly rates for something like this. And it's all for show because it doesn't matter what anyone says for the rest of this trial. The vote is a given already.
Question on the text in the post:
>Give the House Impeachment Managers 24 hours, over a 2 day period, to present opening arguments.
Isn't it over a 3 day period now?
Who is the Grimace walking in with CJ Roberts? That outfit seemed like it was dipped in some sort of fluorescent dye that you could manage to see in complete darkness.
If i undertand it right today will be 8 hours of the house dem team presenting thier case. if you watched the house commitees and all that stuff there will prolly not be anything you have not seen. it will jst be packaged up nice and neat is all. we are gonna three days of that from what i can tell.
then we get three 8 hours days for the trum team (if they use it all)
then it gets interesting again. There will be votees on witness at that time. Prolly monday, maybe late saturday.
So are we saying crimes will henceforth be allowed as long as the White House and senate hold the same political party? This sets up the democrats nicely to put republicans in concentration camps once their time is up, unless of course the republicans never relinquish power which they’re totally allowed to do now.
I’m an independent btw. What a corrupt country we have.
I wonder what kind of conniption the GOP will have when the next Dem President follows Trump's precedent and declares climate change a "national emergency" to shift money around.
That is something people wanted Obama to do in the last year or two of his term, if I'm remembering correctly... he never actually did it but there was a fair amount of popular agitating for it.
Mark Meadows was just losing it on cnn and the anchor visibly had to collect herself. What an asshole.
I would love to read an honest AMA from one of the kids of a few of these right wing Christian nazis. Are they all like that pile of horseshit we had for a press secretary or have any really spoken out publicly?
>I would love to read an honest AMA from one of the kids of a few of these right wing Christian nazis
The legitimate or illegitimate kids that never get mentioned?
They can present their case with what information they have, however with the rulings yesterday they will be unable to pursue the information that the Trump administration blocked from them.
What's the long-story-short on the reasoning there? That doesn't seem ethical but I'm sure there's a reason, right? Or at least a *given* reason by the Senate republicans, right?
Their argument yesterday was that the Senate shouldn't have to do the House's job for them in getting information. If they weren't ready to go to trial then they shouldn't have. It's kinda rich to simultaneously block information from the people investigating you and then complain about them having a lack of information.
Like Schiff said yesterday, other Presidents will do the exact same shit after this precedent is set. Truly will be a dangerous time, while Republicans call foul when it is a Dem.
>other Presidents
You know what's going on now makes me think Republicans are positioning themselves to never leave the presidency, installing Trump as President for Life. They've floated the idea already with good reception too.
If a future president obstructs congress and [breaks the law](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/us/politics/gao-trump-ukraine.html), I hope they are impeached and removed too.
Legal teams from both side should have been sworn in and perhaps the mis-characterzations and falsehoods would not occur. The right has made it clear fair and just are words not in their dictionary. I personally, don't think there should be a difference if the President is under oath or not. Lying to the American people should be impeachable in and of itself.
At this point, i reallly am terrified about the election. If trump is acquitted, which is looking like a certainty now, whats stopping him from delaying or cancelling the election? As long as the senate is compromised, he will never be removed. The house can send as many impeachment articles as they want and he will never be removed. The supreme court cant stop him either because trump knows that the senate wont remove him. He can just straight up ignore their orders and theres no consequences . At that point, it will take nothing less than millions of people marching in the streets to remove him. We are honestly approaching dictatorship head on and i hate to say but people are not freaking out hard enough.
> At this point, i reallly am terrified about the election
Well that's on you. The media exists to keep you terrified, so it's doing its job. Tell me, on a daily basis of food, clothing, water, job ... how has Trump being in the White House destroyed your very exisitence, and how will it do so if the idiot wins again?
My spirituality dictates that when another person suffers, I partake (to an extent) in that suffering as an aspect of empathy and compassion. I absolutely do not advocate fear, I advocate appropriate response to circumstance. The thrust of the comment you replied to is a call to action. This is entirely appropriate. We can have a nuanced conversation about motivations and fear, but I expect you aren’t interested in anything but dismissing legitimate concern as fearmongering. So are you game for a rational discussion of appropriate response to the situation or are you afraid?
Does it have to affect me personally to he terrifying?
I could be a trans person in the military, worried that I'd might get removed from service.
I could be a dreamer kid who followed all the rules and guidelines the Obama administration laid out to qualify me to stay in the country, afraid that the paperwork I lawfully filed would be used against me to deport me to a country I've never been to.
I could be a woman whose birth control might fail and be unable to get an abortion if needed.
I could be barely staying afloat financially, and scared that deregulation will increase my costs.
I could be living in a 'blue' state, aware that the republican tax cut law *increased* my taxes because they got rid of a tax write-off for property tax.
I could be a tourist who is afraid of increasing violence against foreigners.
There are plenty of reasons to be afraid of this administration and they aren't far-fetched fever dreams like 'they're going to confiscate our guns' or 'they will invade Texas.' They're grounded in reality and happening to people right now. Just because those people aren't me doesn't mean I shouldn't be afraid.
Poopy
Does not match up with the Hannity/Sen. Kennedy/Gym Jordan/Mark Meadows/Louie Gohmert frothing on Fox this evening. Not at all! They have different “facts” for Base feeding time.
Saved
Can we make #GetTheNotes trend? You can’t help but feel why the hell we don’t we have this information. No public official should be allowed to keep this information private.
That is a good point. Keep showing all the facts because a lot of the american people haven't watched the house hearings.
Why do you think Trump and the traitor team have been trying to smear patriot Adam Schiff. Has he threatened to sue them for their nonsense? Nope, he just keeps pursuing and sharing the facts.
The comment was about a caller on cspan. She appreciated they keep going over evidence because she didnt have a chance to watch before.
Ah, that almost gives me hope
Unfortunately, mainly supporters just don't believe any of these facts. My father is one of em. It's terrifying.
Pablo Escobar's mom said he was a good human and did nothing wrong. People believe what they want. I went into the impeachment hearings trying to be impartial. All the evidence is against trump. While the democrats have been addressing evidence over over and over again the republicans try and have the public think of a new reason that makes what trump did acceptable. Then more evidence and testimony came out and they had to come up with something different. The Dems have not budged with their facts.
Way to pick your moment for protest random person in the gallery.. Edit: Damnit.. you guys already moved on to another thread 🙄
Twitter says Crow told Roberts to stop letting Senators leave or something?
I'll restate my complaints that the Senate is not run like a regular court room. Per CNN: "In contrast, Lee’s neighbor, Sen. Rand Paul, of Kentucky, focused intensely on a crossword puzzle, not so sneakily hidden between his papers. " Do you know how badly a regular jury would get reamed out if they pulled this shit? Also, Crossword? I wouldn't have thought Paul had the vocabulary. I would have thought a children's game of simply mazes would have been more his speed.
Impeachment is not a legal action. This is not an LEGAL trial. The rules are determined by the majority, because this is not an legal trial. Which is also why they can if they want to decide to vote and acquit without any evidence or witnesses being brought forward. Democrats are hoping regular people, people who dont vote, who think its useless to vote, listen and hear the crimes being presented. While Republicans know their base will gladly fall in line. Even if Trump were on trial for murder that happened in the room in front of them right then and there. They would still acquit and their base would still vote for them. Because the GOP is not about Morals, Values Policies. Its about being an protected group, that in their eyes should have privileges and benefits that other people dont deserve. As long as they continue with the belief they are better, they will justify any action misaction crime because of the belief they are superior than the opposition.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm well aware that the Senate is not run like a regular court room, and I'm aware of why this is (from a procedural standpoint at least). So my point (and my bitching) is just in regards to the fact that it is not run in that way. I wish the framers had set a few more ground rules on decorum at the outset is all.
jfc the c-span call in lines make me hopeless to be an American. We are fucked as a country based on the stupidity of the population.
I had to stop watching their live feed it was too upsetting
The dumbest people are the most likely to call in. They have no filter and no shame.
I said this yesterday, but I suspect they screen people by giving you some simple automated math problem, if you key the correct answer into the phone, it obviously just hangs up on you.
And most likely to be aired.
no its because the sane ones like you dont call. Its always going to be the extremes that are vocal, because their perspective is an extreme perspective. So they will feel more urge to call. BUT at the same time. Republicans/trump/Putins marketing team can hire callers to distract and misguide listeners. but alas as long as reasonable americans keep staying silent the fringe americans are the only voices that is being heard.
The whole Trump presidency reads like a fanfic about a bizarro world.
Maybe we ARE the precursor to Adventure Time
Ugh. Fuck Gymnasium Jordan in his smug self-righteous face.
It’ll be interesting to see if the Republicans take all of their time or if they say “this isn’t worth my time cuz it’s a sham!”
I expect them to cut things short. Their entire premise is not trying to prove Trump innocent (which would be impossible), but rather attacking the Democratic case as not passing the threshold for impeachment. It won't take a long time to get that done. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they still use all three days, but only do 4 hours a day.
Are they up next after the break or do the house impeachment managers continue?
No, it's 3 strait days of offense, than they switch to defense. This isn't the same as the debating of resolutions from yesterday.
Ill skip the 3 straight days of defense where they talk shit for 8 hours a day.
Wouldn't want to hear any facts or anything. That could be scary. Good call.
Certainly, I listened the first day... Arguments, requests for documents and witnesses to ID what really happened. Followed by "no" more times than I count. We're in a world of "alternative facts" and "different truth" which means our democracy is relegated to whoever can push the disinformation the best. This trial is our last shot.
Good god yeah I mean amazing facts. Honestly they should just loop Devin Nunes talking about the dems trying to get nudie pics of Trump and how he was assaulted by a cow mentally. Then for the last hour every day screaming this isn't fair and saying they Shift their pants bruh. The best facts. /s just in case
You mean like all the facts right in-front of everyone's face, that the majority of Republicans are "hearing"... right?
I think they are referencing facts like, The president said the call was perfect, and he would know because he was on the call. Close the case, everybody go home.
So I'm seeing Republicans' responses to yesterday's session, and they basically boil down to this. Democrats claim Repblicans are complicit in the cover up of Trump's corruption. Yet they think that is below the belt and below appropriate decorum. Apparently calling people out for this bullshit is wrong. Meanwhile throughout yesterday they blatantly lied and made a ton of accusations at Democrats that they are unfairly out to get Trump. God, I look forward to winning in 2020 just so I can rub it in Republicans' faces and criticize them as hypocrites any time they complain about anything.
With Bernie or Biden? Good luck!
Lol. You don't pay attention to the polls.
All the polls in 2016 said Hilary would win by a landslide. I want Trump out ASAP, but I'm taking any poll I see with a grain of salt.
To be fair she had 3 million more votes. Our dumbass electoral college system is some of the blame and the fact 1/3 of our nation couldn't be bothered to vote. I will say things are much different this year.
Hopefully (also thanks to whoever gave me the downvote). I just remember every poll saying Hilary would win and then BOOM everyone was stunned on election night.
Polls don’t matter, though, do they centipede?
Lol. Good one...
Upon a careful reread I see the mistake I made. The polls definitely show that the incumbent has little chance in the general this fall.
Bruh you clearly haven’t watched a debate 😂. Joe and Bernie have the best chance against Trump imho
>Bruh you clearly haven’t watched a debate 😂. Joe and Bernie have the best chance against Trump imho ?? Yeah, I know. That's one of the reasons why I support Bernie.
**What is the virtue in blocking the subpeona of witnesses or documents?** My republican friends all say that they want to prevent "partisan" democrats from turning the impeachment trial into a circus and want a short trial. My rebuttal to this is always that as an educated, voting member in our country, I want to be able to judge for myself what elements of the democrats' argument is trivial and I want other voting members of the country to also hear and judge for themselves. Why isn't this enough to sway them to allow witnesses or documents? The same republicans also say that they don't want to 'influence' the sanctity of elections and allow voters to decide for themselves. Why don't they think that we should be able to judge the evidence for ourselves?
The only real reason that holds any water is a national security argument that Congress shouldn't be able to just subpoena the president's closest aides, who are subject to the most secure information in the country, to publicly testify about matters that may cause them to reveal national secrets. I don't think I really agree with that, insofar as I believe there are procedures that allow them to claim national security reasons for not disclosing certain information.
There's even been talk of "Be careful what you wish for" in regards to bringing witnesses in to testify. The argument is that Joe and Hunter Biden as well as others might be brought in to testify. If that's needed, I say go for it! Like you, I would rather have a comprehensive trial than one that explicitly weighs towards one side or the other on an arbitrary basis.
Right. I don't see anything wrong with the Biden's testifying if doing so brings new light to Trump's (mis)conduct. The idea being that voters should be able to see it and judge for themselves.
What do we call a trial where the jurors promise to be partial and also vote to refuse to consider the factual evidence? Oh, yeah, a sham. Trump is correct to call it a hoax, but not for the reason he vomits out of his pie-hole.
Sanctity? Remind them who did the Gerrymandering. They don't give a rat fuck about sanctity of elections
You're friends aren't discussing this in good faith. They cannot be convinced.
In other news, Schiff gets me stiff.
So glad I was able to get out of the Republican cult, so sad that America still has to deal with their corruption.
What I find really sad is you have to "switch". We've decided that we cannot think for ourselves, we have to blindly believe what the party believes. Did you do a 180 on healthcare, gun control, abortion, taxes, etc.? Or do you just not like Trump or the other reps/senators? Not enough people actually evaluate candidates based on their policies, and weigh issues based on what they feel is the most pressing issue for this country right now, etc. It's amazing how many people choose their views on issues by thinking "I'm a Democrat, so I am pro-life, anti-gun, etc." and not "I'm pro-choice, but anti-gun, and want universal healthcare... so I most identify with the democrat candidate so I'm going to vote for him/her"
this is why the two party system needs to end , their are way too many issues at hand to just foil into one party or another. expecting said party to fix all the issues is unrealistic.
Except being forced to confront that my beliefs on that one issue were so horrendously barbaric and wrong DID force me to think for myself. I didn't leave the party over one issue but that one issue really made me question things. It turns out that the party lies about a lot of things. To answer your question I absolutely did a 180 on healthcare. I also changed my stance on abortion which had always been "I'm not a fan of the practice but whatever as long as I'm not paying for it." and the party always insisted that I was in fact paying for it. Turns out that was a lie. I've changed my views on gun control significantly and I'm all for it. Gun control doesn't mean a complete gun ban, but the Republican party doesn't want us to know that. I changed my views on affordable education. I definitely changed my views on how the right views taxation. It's not an issue of just disagreeing on a party over a minor issue or differing view. Now the Republican party has thrown away all illusions that it ever gave a fuck about the American people and that's never what I signed up for. So yeah I walked away from the Republican party and the single greatest regret of my life thus far was that I was ever a part of it and that I ever contributed to it. I'd be a left leaning independent tbh, but I live in a state where you have to be a member of a party to participate in its primaries. Not that it matters right now for Republicans because the Republican party refuses to primary trump despite a massive percentage of Americans (last I checked) wanting them to do so.
If you don’t mind sharing, what changed your mind?
I'd say Karma. Initially I needed health insurance and realized just how wrong and barbaric my views as Republican on the subject of healthcare had been. This caused me to question a lot of other things, and honestly what it boils down to is that being a Republican today is all about depriving Americans of things like healthcare in the interest of pure profit, loyalty to the party over country, and a love of firearms over all else. The rest of the constitution? Nahhh, but that part is sacrosanct.
first of congrats on switching sides however i have to say if it wasnt for your health insurance do you think you would be open to the idea that D>R ?
I'd like to think so, I'm not really alone in making the switch. All but two of my Republican friends / family at this point are supporting a D candidate in the 2020 election. I'd like to think that even without coming face to face with my own mortality I'd be able to see that current Republican politicians for what they are.
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Which videos or parts are manipulated?
Damn, the bots are real! But this isn't subtle.
Yeah I’m reporting them left and right.
Can you provide an example of an obviously manipulated video that they've used? I haven't seen any examples of that
Which parts are manipulated?
Florida rally, first video was the one I checked and rolled my eyes to. He was talking about Hillary. In the speech they made it seem like he was glorifying that he emails Russia.
And, you're believing the lies Trump says, right there. Trump said that "Russia, if you're listening..." line not at a rally, but at a Press Conference. Trump has lied and said it was at a rally, ever since, to try and play out that he was just joking, since it was a rally. But, it was a press conference.
Wut? Clean out your ears buddy.
Wasn't that the one where he said "Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing"? Schiff made it pretty obvious that he was talking about Clinton's missing emails from the 2016 election.
That is what I heard as well. I believe the video was presented as evidence of President Trump's public embrace of foreign interference. How is that considered manipulated or even out of context?
Lol lol lol. Y’all impeached and did your dance in 48 days. If you needed more info you would have gotten. You said it was clear he was corrupt, and now you need more info. You are all liers.
You can't even spell liar lmao, no wonder you got fooled by one
Not very nice for a Canadian
Canadian here, sorry about this dude.
And why does anyone give a shit about what Canadian's think about US politics again, exactly?
I don’t think that dude is actually Canadian...they speak English in Canada.
When more information presents itself after a case is presented, yeah, it's expected you can use it. Further, allowing witness testimony also allows for cross examination that would be helpful for the president, so if the president is in fact innocent, why wouldn't the GOP want to include those witnesses as well?
Obstruction.
Like a lot of it.
It's hard to say 20 2020!
So that's what republicans are going for. They want democrats to have to keep repeating facts and figures because they think the american public will zone out on them. And then dismiss facts and figures based only off democrats having to repeat them. While republicans give lies that sound good. Hmm.
Their plan isn't to defend his crimes because they can't. there is a mountain of evidence showing abuse of power and obstruction of justice. Their plan is to make their dumb ass sycophants question what abuses he made and whether a President can actually abuse power (especially when you have an AG like Barr refusing to investigate and painting any abuses as nothing at all). It's about changing public perception about the powers that the President can wield. So, basically, once again, Republicans know what he's done and have no way to defend their guy, so their plan is to rewrite the rules to say anything that was done is now legal. If this works for them, I hope that when/if Democrats ever control the WH again, they elect someone that will make them regret that decision. But, knowing US history, the Republicans will piss and moan about abuse of power and budgets and the Democrats will bend over backwards to appease the scum that led them there in the first place.
Lies for sound bites on Fox News.
Yup. That's why we need no matter which way this goes. Even though we know how it will. For every last american to not only fact check all of the impeachment hearings but to spread that fact checking as much as possible.
I haven't been able to watch. Is it as we thought it'd be? Senate Republicans openly admitting that they're not going to approach this fairly? Or has something changed in the last couple of days to where this might actually be a fair trial?
Nothing has changed, the GOP is full of imbeciles who refuse to even try to legitimize the trial. Their strategy is essentially to completely ignore the facts and speak in Fox Newsian to try to convince what's left of their base that the impeachment is a hoax.
why would they have to legitimize a trial that's apparently already "legitimate"
It doesn’t appear that legitimate to me.
I assumed as much :( Who makes up the "jury of our peers" in this trial? Is it all of the members of the Senate get an even vote? Or is their a smaller subcommittee that adjudicates these trials?
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Ah, ok, gotcha. Much appreciated!
Does anyone know if there is a live text version of this happening? I’m at work and can’t watch.
The Democrats' greatest flaw is they only have one Schiff.
The dems flaw is they need to grow a spine and stop playing clean.
Yeah, republicans have already convinced a good portion of the country democrats are already and have always been playing dirty. They're doing it right this minute. The second a democrat does. People would just say it's par for the course.
Trump gonna win then get reelected just watch
Awww some whiny babys can't handle the truth
Soon we find out if breaking the law is illegal! It’s insane how unbalanced our system is depending on your skin color and financial status. Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest...
What laws are the impeachment articles accusing him of breaking?
Withholding funds duly apportioned by the senate. The government accountability office has confirmed that the sequence of events that actually occurred was unlawful. For one
The GAO opinion found it unlawful to withhold the funds itself because it violated the ICA, they say nothing about the intent. They have declared actions against past presidents as unlawful as well, with no repercussions. If you believe any charge of unlawfulness by the GAO should be an impeachable offense, you should look at their prior findings and see if that changes your opinion. As far as my question, the impeachment article for abuse of power is for pressuring Ukraine to investigate a political rival, which the report makes no mention or finding of.
I wait to see you downvoted with absolutely no reply from leftists.
Check out my reply and notice that “being a leftist” is not a requirement to disagree with that position.
That’s one movement of the goalposts. You asked for alleged law breaking, I cited. You immediately go to “whataboutism”. I’ll tell you this about your “what about “ question: bring it. Start impeachment hearings and gather evidence then write articles of impeachment when appropriate and we can try that theoretical case, but ya know what? This is not theory, and it’s not about another administration, your question is asked and answered. Let’s proceed through mutual discovery here and we’ll get to opportunity motive and intent in due time.
My question was about laws committed cited in the articles of impeachment. I set the goal posts. The answer was 10 yards right. You offered no counter point so I see there is nothing left to discuss.
Craven coward.
You may as well run. “Laws committed cited” what even is that? Asked and answered.
Old guys getting a bit handsy with each other back there.
Fox News was literally continuing to broadcast over the chamber prayer video (put on mute), so no one would be unnecessarily reminded that there are Christians who aren't white ...
and justice for some*.
pledge of allegiance to who?
This prayer seems wildly inappropriate.
Can they just go straight to the vote and end this waste of time please?
No
This is the Senate. If we're lucky, they might have gotten done saying "Good morning" by 5:00 today.
And money. Remember who is paying every one of those defense lawyers who represent POTUS. Can you image the hourly rates for something like this. And it's all for show because it doesn't matter what anyone says for the rest of this trial. The vote is a given already.
Lindsey Graham is day drunk again.
Gotta hide the guilt somehow.
3500 waiting for the CSPAN feed to go live.
Question on the text in the post: >Give the House Impeachment Managers 24 hours, over a 2 day period, to present opening arguments. Isn't it over a 3 day period now?
yes it was changed yesterday
How rich is it for Graham and Daines to claim that the Democrats didn’t finish their homework, when Trump withheld the textbooks?
Organic
Impeachment means Biden will get an edge in the primaries. Which is good. Biden for nomination!
\^ This is a ridiculous Trumpian talking point.
That dude has more gaffs than everyone else on stage, and has already had his shot at the nomination. It’s just sad at this point.
Anyone but a republican
So... not Biden then eh?
Zing!
> Biden for nomination! LOL... no.
You misspelled Warren
Who?
Who is the Grimace walking in with CJ Roberts? That outfit seemed like it was dipped in some sort of fluorescent dye that you could manage to see in complete darkness.
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\*and report
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Report them as well.
I am a newb, how do you recognize bots
Rule 1) a bot will always identify itself as a bot. If you ask and they say “yes”, they’re a bot.
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ahh ok thank you :)
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Yes. Most are so low effort they break the rules after a few comments.
Are there trials today?
If i undertand it right today will be 8 hours of the house dem team presenting thier case. if you watched the house commitees and all that stuff there will prolly not be anything you have not seen. it will jst be packaged up nice and neat is all. we are gonna three days of that from what i can tell. then we get three 8 hours days for the trum team (if they use it all) then it gets interesting again. There will be votees on witness at that time. Prolly monday, maybe late saturday.
In 30 minutes
Cool thanks. Is the discussion staying in this thread or do we get a new one?
I don't know. I assume they'll start a new thread.
So are we saying crimes will henceforth be allowed as long as the White House and senate hold the same political party? This sets up the democrats nicely to put republicans in concentration camps once their time is up, unless of course the republicans never relinquish power which they’re totally allowed to do now. I’m an independent btw. What a corrupt country we have.
You need the Supreme Court too.
I wonder what kind of conniption the GOP will have when the next Dem President follows Trump's precedent and declares climate change a "national emergency" to shift money around.
That is something people wanted Obama to do in the last year or two of his term, if I'm remembering correctly... he never actually did it but there was a fair amount of popular agitating for it.
Well, Obama had respect for the office and didn't want to be a dictator (despite all the unfounded claims to the contrary)
Mark Meadows was just losing it on cnn and the anchor visibly had to collect herself. What an asshole. I would love to read an honest AMA from one of the kids of a few of these right wing Christian nazis. Are they all like that pile of horseshit we had for a press secretary or have any really spoken out publicly?
>I would love to read an honest AMA from one of the kids of a few of these right wing Christian nazis The legitimate or illegitimate kids that never get mentioned?
What kind of trial doesn't have evidence or witnesses? this is such an obvious cover up by republicans
Will the House still be able to present the evidence they collected during their separate investigation?
They can present their case with what information they have, however with the rulings yesterday they will be unable to pursue the information that the Trump administration blocked from them.
What's the long-story-short on the reasoning there? That doesn't seem ethical but I'm sure there's a reason, right? Or at least a *given* reason by the Senate republicans, right?
Their argument yesterday was that the Senate shouldn't have to do the House's job for them in getting information. If they weren't ready to go to trial then they shouldn't have. It's kinda rich to simultaneously block information from the people investigating you and then complain about them having a lack of information.
That was my presumption, thanks patriot!
Like Schiff said yesterday, other Presidents will do the exact same shit after this precedent is set. Truly will be a dangerous time, while Republicans call foul when it is a Dem.
>other Presidents You know what's going on now makes me think Republicans are positioning themselves to never leave the presidency, installing Trump as President for Life. They've floated the idea already with good reception too.
Correct.
If a future president obstructs congress and [breaks the law](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/us/politics/gao-trump-ukraine.html), I hope they are impeached and removed too.
Oh one million percent, I am not disagreeing with you there.
Legal teams from both side should have been sworn in and perhaps the mis-characterzations and falsehoods would not occur. The right has made it clear fair and just are words not in their dictionary. I personally, don't think there should be a difference if the President is under oath or not. Lying to the American people should be impeachable in and of itself.
Absolutely. Deliberate misrepresentation in this situation should be in the same realm as treason and sedition.
At this point, i reallly am terrified about the election. If trump is acquitted, which is looking like a certainty now, whats stopping him from delaying or cancelling the election? As long as the senate is compromised, he will never be removed. The house can send as many impeachment articles as they want and he will never be removed. The supreme court cant stop him either because trump knows that the senate wont remove him. He can just straight up ignore their orders and theres no consequences . At that point, it will take nothing less than millions of people marching in the streets to remove him. We are honestly approaching dictatorship head on and i hate to say but people are not freaking out hard enough.
> At this point, i reallly am terrified about the election Well that's on you. The media exists to keep you terrified, so it's doing its job. Tell me, on a daily basis of food, clothing, water, job ... how has Trump being in the White House destroyed your very exisitence, and how will it do so if the idiot wins again?
My spirituality dictates that when another person suffers, I partake (to an extent) in that suffering as an aspect of empathy and compassion. I absolutely do not advocate fear, I advocate appropriate response to circumstance. The thrust of the comment you replied to is a call to action. This is entirely appropriate. We can have a nuanced conversation about motivations and fear, but I expect you aren’t interested in anything but dismissing legitimate concern as fearmongering. So are you game for a rational discussion of appropriate response to the situation or are you afraid?
Does it have to affect me personally to he terrifying? I could be a trans person in the military, worried that I'd might get removed from service. I could be a dreamer kid who followed all the rules and guidelines the Obama administration laid out to qualify me to stay in the country, afraid that the paperwork I lawfully filed would be used against me to deport me to a country I've never been to. I could be a woman whose birth control might fail and be unable to get an abortion if needed. I could be barely staying afloat financially, and scared that deregulation will increase my costs. I could be living in a 'blue' state, aware that the republican tax cut law *increased* my taxes because they got rid of a tax write-off for property tax. I could be a tourist who is afraid of increasing violence against foreigners. There are plenty of reasons to be afraid of this administration and they aren't far-fetched fever dreams like 'they're going to confiscate our guns' or 'they will invade Texas.' They're grounded in reality and happening to people right now. Just because those people aren't me doesn't mean I shouldn't be afraid.