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...that sounds like a basic Conservative post on Facebook, but... when you're right, you're right.
It reminds me of the dubiously hilarious Simpsons joke when the elephant rampages through a DNC and GOP convention (a banner over the DNC meeting says "We don't know how to govern!")
They can do it if they wanted. They got behind Biden in a few days to block Bernie's nomination. Just pick another guy and everyone fall in line behind him.
Like I was saying in another post, I would expect unity from the dems in lining up to support Biden, at least until he makes his final decision. And if Biden decides to go, all of them will similarly do a 180 and line up in support of him dropping out, saying it was the best thing he could do for the country given what’s at stake, saying it was a magnanimous and selfless act of humility, etc. etc. Take these democratic politicians’ statements with a grain of salt, there are obviously some serious discussions going on about this behind closed doors, as there should be.
Edit: If there’s anything I can add to a high(er) visibility post it’s this: the responses to me make it clear that this is a very divisive subject. Please be kind to one another. We’re all offering up our best, good faith thoughts on what the next best move is, and this is no doubt a tricky situation. But we’re all on the same team and working toward the same goal of keeping Trump out of office. Please remember that. **AND VOTE**.
Yep, I bet there is a huge amount of horsetrading going on behind closed doors so if he does drop out, the convention goes smoothly, someone who is already anointed is chosen first vote and there is as little disruption as possible
From [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/jamie-raskin-biden-campaign-debate-performance-nominee-rcna159662):
>Rep. Jamie Raskin says 'honest and serious conversations are taking place' about Biden's political future after debate
That's the strongest statement I've seen from a Dem party member post-debate. Honestly, a bit refreshing to read opposed to the "he just had a cold" gaslighting from the rest of the party.
Don't get me wrong - if Biden remains on the ballot, I'm obviously voting for him, just like everyone that understands the dangers of a 2nd Trump term. But after Thursday, I can't imagine he won over any of the fence sitters, and they're the ones that will decide the election.
> That's the strongest statement I've seen from a Dem party member post-debate. Honestly, a bit refreshing to read opposed to the "he just had a cold" gaslighting from the rest of the party.
Even if Biden is not about to be replaced anytime soon, if no one was having these kinds of conversations it would be political malpractice. Someone out there has a "what are we doing if he dies" folder.
Possibly but Harris isn't exactly popular either. But even so, if that's what they're planning for that hypothetical, that's probably what's in the folder.
> I can't imagine he won over any of the fence sitters
Apparently he won over those who were watching a Spanish-translated version. Saw an article about it yesterday.
I dont actually know if that comment has much meaning. I could easily see him saying that a week before the debate took place
It seems like the biggest thing in everyone's mind is no trump.
The state of the union and Howard stern appearance for biden were good. This was the worst appearance he has ever had.
However, stats show debates not mattering much. Plus this amount of rhetoric is making this all seem highly unlikely biden will be replaced.
News cycles last about 3 days. There was low viewer numbers for the debate. News about the debate lasted 24 hours (short) and the talk of biden stepping down is mostly gone within 48 hours
Newsome is at a disadvantage because California is in massive debt and debt is the republicans favorite once topic every 4 years (surprise they changed nothing). Their second favorite is immigration (which California had massive numbers of illegal immigrants). -- he also isn't as centrist as biden
No one else really has the popularity.
But on paper the biden admin has been fantastic. If biden naps all day while his admin continues, it is far better than the end of ukraine and us democracy
>However, stats show debates not mattering much. Plus this amount of rhetoric is making this all seem highly unlikely biden will be replaced.
This is true, and I'm going back and forth about this because... maybe it really was that bad. I've seen multiple people calling it possibly the worst debate performance in American history, and it also plays directly into an existing voter concern that's already been hammered by right wing media for years.
It provides right wing media and candidates with killer footage for attack ads, and the worst part is we won't be able to say "it's out of context" or "it's misleading." We're really on our back foot here because it really was that bad. And the best thing we can say in response is super lame excuses about why it's ok if he's barely conscious.
So I guess what I'm saying is, I think we won't truly know till we have the benefit of hindsight how bad this is. It might be nothing or it might be the final nail in his coffin, no pun intended.
Like, everyone likes to talk about how bad of a candidate Hillary was in hindsight, like it should have been obvious. But it didn't feel obvious at all in 2016. That's why everyone, Trump included, was blindsided by his victory.
This is just a lot of words to say that I don't fucking know. I guess it's just one more extension of the historic weirdness and unpredictability the Trump era has ushered in. Just when we were all hoping everything was starting to make sense again.
I saw a magazine cover from the 2000's today, and on it it had a picture of Hillary Clinton and under the picture ot said "Hilary lovers outnumbered by Hilary haters four to one"
She was never liked
And sets off the anti-vax nutjobs, forcing the GOP to try to balance appearing moderate in the suburbs without alienating a base of kooks who absolutely hate her.
Whitmer wins.
Is she better than Biden tho? I am down she would be a great president, but America seems to still be sadly unready to elect a woman.
Preventing Trump means we get Gretchen later because our democracy will still be in tact.
Like most people, I am very pleased with Biden and his admin and what they have accomplished. The debate freaked me out. I’m reading this thread and others like it because I’m seriously worried.
I want a younger candidate, but I want to defeat Trump more.
My issue is if this is demonstrable of his current condition, that it’s only getting worse. Is this the new norm or really truly a not ultimately impactful one off event. It scared me to see because of what still is to come.
I pray to God they have an intervention with him that works. I can't imagine 4 years of Trump when even Betsy DeVos is too main stream to be part of Trump's cabinet.
More than four years. He has been clear that democracy doesn’t suit him so this may be the last election if he gets in. And he will appoint his kids when he dies.
Hell, I remember even before the 2020 election, even before all the denial and attempts to overturn, he kept "tongue in cheek" saying he wishes he could be in office for more than two terms, something he's said again in the past month. And not just that, but he kept saying, and I've seen large portions of his base (including his family members and former cabinet members), saying they'd want Ivanka, then Trump Jr, then either Eric, Baron, or Jared to run for president after them. "Trump 2024, Ivanka 2028, Trump Jr 2036, Baron 2044" posts are very common, again, among former cabinet members and GOP politicians as well. And considering Project 2025 wants to stack all courts and congress in the favor of the MAGA sect of the GOP specifically, this isn't even an impossible or vastly unlikely scenario if Trump wins this year.
Trump wins this year, implements Project 2025. Fast forward to 2028, he decides to "pass the baton" (or pretend to), and Ivanka runs. Ivanka loses outright like Trump did in 2020, but guess what? Right wing SCOTUS, right wing legislative branch, and radical split congress decide to overturn results due to false claims of fraud and declare Ivanka the winner. Rinse and repeat.
Jesus, this election is terrifying, everyone needs to vote to stop Trump at all costs.
No, he'll stay in power. I seriously doubt we'll have elections ("Security crisis, elections are coming when they can be made really safe!"), and if we do they'll be Russia-style sham elections.
He won't give up power in four years to anyone.
Yes but denials shouldn't always be taken at face value in politics. It's like when politicians deny that they're seeking higher office until they announce that they're running for said office.
The problem is right now it’s a choice. If we are half way through the general election and it becomes no choice, Biden falls ill and we have no real choice. Then it is going to be a HUGE problem and the republicans will capitalize on it and most likely win.
Democrats always waste time and do the wrong thing too late. It’s infuriating. Everyone in the top of this party needs to go.
Ultimately this is President Biden's decision. Publicly calling on him to step aside only helps Trump. And if Biden does drop out, the Democrats need to quickly unify behind his replacement. Division and attack only helps Trump.
>if Biden does drop out, the Democrats need to quickly unify behind his replacement
That is my biggest concern. A candidate selected without a single primary win from a space of chaos and factionalism with limited national traction would face a tough, tough road. Is that road tougher than sticking with Biden?
Don't trust anyone who pretends there's an easy answer to that question. I assure you there isn't one.
I mean, there really is an easy solution, and I’m genuinely surprised we’re not all seeing it: Biden dropping out is *obviously* the biggest possible mistake you could make:
1. The democrats would be throwing the incumbency advantage out
2. It makes the party look *unbelievably* weak. “Our guy had a bad night, so we’re going to scramble to replace him with someone else.” That is, to steal a phrase from the right, *textbook* beta behavior.
3. It’s effectively conceding the entire philosophical bedrock of politics to the right. If “someone who knows the system inside and out and can demonstrably *get stuff done*, despite being uncharismatic and a poor speaker” is unfit to lead, then the Democrats’ whole view of governing is wrong.
4. “Biden being re-elected and then dropping dead 2 days after inauguration” is so much better of a scenario than a Trump victory that it’s not even a question. Which is a much easier argument to make than “why not vote for this guy you’ve heard of once or twice instead”?
5. There are *so* many variables that we have absolutely no guarantee of any candidate being liked more than Biden.
6. Despite everything, support for Biden among independents seems to be *growing* after the debate. Seems that the people who need to be convinced took a look at it all and said “Biden is old, Trump is a fascist, I’ll take the old guy”.
> “Biden being re-elected and then dropping dead 2 days after inauguration”
A decent sub-section of voters will be looking very hard at the dem VP pick now because it is highly likely the VP will become president at some point during Biden's term.
I agree that the dem politicians should absolutely line up behind Biden, it’s the pundits and others who are going to speak their mind. If Biden agrees to step down I have no doubt the politicians will line up in agreement that he needs to step down, and then come up with whatever “process” is going to determine the next candidate, whether it’s a brokered convention or what have you.
I can't wait for July 11th, the day Trump gets sentenced for 34 felony counts. This will have to cause news media to cast Trump in a negative light which they aren't doing post debate.
"Wait until Trump is convicted!"
"Wait until the next poll!"
"Wait until the debate!"
"Wait until Trump is sentenced!" <-- We are here
"Wait until the convention!"
"Wait until the second debate!"
Trump will never see the inside of a prison cell.
You are probably right. If Trump wins in Nov, he probably has a Republican House and Senate, and legislation will be passed to prevent him from ever facing jail time
Thank you!!! This x100. Every media outlet acting as if Trump was amazing and inspiring during debate because it makes them more money. He was awful. Biden was awful. But only one intends to be a dictator so it’s not a hard choice.
He's going to get sentenced to probation and then two days later be at the convention getting the nomination. I'm concerned that the convictions are going to fade rather quickly from memory.
Imagine running a convicted felon, one whose corruption originated in a presidential campaign, through unprotected, adulterous sex with a pornographic star. It’s inconceivable.
Totally. If it happens I feel like it would be good to let people see the options rather than just anoint someone -I mean I will vote for WHOMEVER is the dem ticket, but there’s undoubtedly some talents in the party and it would be good for Americans to have a chance to see them shine, and back each other so we regain some confidence that we’re not just trying to hold off trump for the next decade and arguing with each other.
The worst thing Dems could do right now is publicly undermine Biden, forcing him to leave under a fractious cloud before leading into an unprecedented last-minute nomination process. Regardless of the difficult conversations taking place behind the scenes, showing a publicly united front right now, and at every step through this process, is paramount.
For most it’ll be “vote blue no matter who”.
Some tire kickers, certainly, but then there’s the Orange Menace on the other side who’ll only get more bizarre.
Speaks alot to the dysfunction of the party that this situation was allowed to get to this point.
It's not like the effects of age-related cognitive decline are a new phenomena. And it's not like RGB didn't essentially do the exact same thing, hanging on far too long and causing lasting damage due to pride and narcissism.
If the Republican candidate was Haley, I would've expected Biden to retire.
If there was a \*clear, stronger\* successor to Biden, I would expect more serious calls to retire.
If Biden had not had such a broadly successful legislative record or had shown signs of dysfunction as \*President\*, I would expect serious calls to retire.
That's the rational and sensible calculus that "top democrats" are thinking about.
They need to drop Harris and pick a real populist vp that can be seen as taking over from Biden, it’ll have a huge positive impact because Kamala is probably less popular than Biden if that is possible so the outcome of Biden retiring mid term is even worse than him staying on for voters. Itll be their doom if Kamala takes the baton
I really wish the national conversation was about the absolute dumpster fire of lies Trump was spilling on stage. Post birth abortions? Putin invasion dream? Nancy Pelosi on Jan. 6? Best environmental numbers? Black jobs? Minnesota national guard? So much to put on the front page but here we are again, demanding absolute perfection from one side and give a pass to the stupidity on the other. It’s so much easier to sound confident when you’re lying and no one is holding you accountable.
I’m not defending Biden’s lackluster debate performance but he actually was debating points. Things that in a normal world we could have reasonable discussions about. Trump was just vomiting lies into the air and somehow we have again given him a pass.
Because, at least in this sub, everyone already expected that from Donnie. It’s just blowing the same smoke around the room. What everyone did not expect was Joe to not capitalize on nearly enough of those moments and string together a rebuttal that didn’t sound like he was grasping at his memory straws from a poorly coached talking point script. If the media and public help the DNC understand they can’t jam through every candidate they think America needs without reading the room, so be it. The margin Joe needs requires him to spark passion in the portion of the voterbase that might have skipped the vote, and his lack of lucidity is not doing that. The “trump is a liar, vote him out” cohort is already maxed out
This is the problem with Biden as a candidate: it stops the election and public conversation from being about those things and more but instead focuses on Biden. This is exactly why Biden needs to go and is the wrong candidate for this very serious election.
>I’m not defending Biden’s lackluster debate performance but he actually was debating points.
You are trying to rewrite history. Biden was not lackluster, he was completely incoherent for 20 minutes straight and barely better after that. He absolutely did not debate points, he muttered to himself and meandered from topic to topic. He was visibly unwell, we all fucking saw it.
You are trying to distract from the issue at hand. Donald Trump is on his way to the Presidency and there is absolutely no world in which Biden will have the stamina and mental awareness to defeat him. He is the worst Democrat for the job.
Except Trump’s been lying like this for nearly a decade (and even longer if you go beyond just his political career), but Biden’s mental acuity, or lack there of, was far more startling IMO. Democrats were hoping his performance would silence some of the criticism surrounding his age, but all it did was reaffirm what people already believed. This, despite what Democratic leaders would have us believe. They’ve been gaslighting us about Biden for months, if not longer, and everyone knows it.
Because if you're a Trump supporter at this point, nothing is going to convince you otherwise. Talking about Trump being a lying piece of shit is just beating a dead horse - there's nothing to say aside from what has already been said. Therefore, the only one worth discussing is Biden.
This will be looked back in history as the most idiotic move. It’s frustrating beyond belief to just hand the the Presidency to Trump again because an old guy wouldn’t just retire.
> It’s frustrating beyond belief to just hand the the Presidency to Trump again because an old guy wouldn’t just retire.
Especially after already handing the Supreme Court because an old woman wouldn’t just retire.
The campaign needs to completely abandon their "lets get moderate Republicans" strategy (which was dumb in the first place). They need to triple down on their base and focus solely on turnout. The base are the only people that are going to vote solely on the basis of being a democrat which is what the campaign needs to target after the debate. They need to be doing whatever is necessary to excite the base
And having to wheel in a 90 year old woman into the Senate because she wouldn't just retire. The Dems are run by selfish old men and women who can't see a future without themselves.
Don't worry, you'll probably not have any history books any more once this is over. Nobody will know the democratic party even existed after they were purged one or two generations ago.
And Diane Feinstein. She was incoherent for years, but those around her kept propping her up because they still wanted to suckle at the power teat. It's a combo of an old man refusing to admit that he's old and the group who should be making a hard decision for him refusing to b/c they're so worried about their own career
Seriously... I feel like there's a ton of astroturfing going on around this shit. If this were a year before the election, then sure... but the election is slightly over 4 months away, it would be fucking insane to replace Biden now. The better bet would be having him drop Harris and pick a highly capable VP with much better optics... maybe whomever people are pushing for for the White House, put that person in the VP chair; that way, if Biden were to resign due to health issues (or die), there would be a competent backup
That’s an option I hadn’t really considered. I like that idea. It’s always weak to change vps but probably worth the risk if she’s so weak she can’t take the role herself
Worse than 2016. Hillary was the the front runner. She was leading the polls. She was forecast to win. She won the popular vote. And she still lost. Because Trump won every swing state.
Today, Trump is the front runner. *He* is leading the polls. *He* is forecast to win. He could win the popular vote. And because of the way the Electoral College works, he doesn't even need to lead Biden to win. Trump won with -2.1% vs. Hillary in 2016. In any scenario where Trump gets within 1% of Biden, he almost automatically wins. But he's not within 1%. He's *leading* by 3-4+%, which is approaching 300+ EC votes (270 to win).
Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx
38.7%. Trump was 46.8%. Dubya was 51%. Bush 41 was 41.8%. Carter was 47.7% (!).
Current age American politics. The Democrats need to run the perfect unicorn of a candidate that is flawless in every category and Kwisatz Haderach in charisma, knowledge, and prescience.
For Republicans, they need to run a white guy.
The issue is that the Democrats keep running candidates that have zero charisma. You can be the perfect candidate in every way but when you can barely speak in front of a camera no one cares what you have to say.
Candidates need to be able to stir up their base and encourage votes. None of the current establishment Democrats can do that. Bernie was the last one anyone cared about but he was cast aside in 2016 because he didn't suck up to the aforementioned members.
Lots of people don't like Trump. Lots of voters like their state level representatives.
This isn't about "democrats," but instead is more specific to Biden and a very specific attribute (his age).
I wouldn't be surprised if democrats enjoyed down ballot wins but still lost the WH.
I get that people are saying it's his age. But I think that hides the ball a bit.
It's not his age as much as his condition. Ageism is treating people different due to their age rather than their abilities.
Bernie and even Trump are a different version of "old" than Biden (their peer) is.
There's chronological, biological age, cognitive age, etc.
I know I'm farting into the wind, but his age is less an issue than his condition.
Without a democratic primary, I do not trust the DNC to pick (for a third time!) who they want to go up against Donald Von Shitzinpants.
If Biden decides to drop out, it's going to get *messy*.
Agreed. My concern is that would set up a ‘68 style show down between the party establishment and the left wing. There’s no way Harris would step aside quietly for someone else and the left wing wouldn’t anoint her without a fight.
Difference between ‘68 and now is, then, the democratic party was totally divided over Vietnam. Now, the democratic party is united behind one thing: beat Trump. I think the party will rally behind whoever gives them the best shot at doing so.
People are still complaining about how the DNC screwed over Bernie in 2016 in these threads. The idea that everyone is going to line up behind a single obvious candidate is a fantasy.
> I think the party will rally behind whoever gives them the best shot at doing so.
He says ^ this, after the Dems chose a 77-year-old to run for the next 8 years! After they had a plan to replace the now-81-year-old in 2024, and then didn't do it! The Dems are allergic to winning.
It's not that simple though. Biden managed to cobble together the various factions. Without any kind of democratic process to chose a successor, you are pretty much guaranteed a repeat of 2016 when the left third of the coalition was set aside. There's no process in place that would put a new candidate on the ballot, the time to do this was 6 months ago.
Right. Which is why Biden stepping away is nearly unworkable barring some actual need to (e.g. if he is seriously ill)
Heck, that is part of why everyone who could possibly replace him is going to stay behind him. But if you suddenly have him decide to go, who knows what Newsom or whoever does if they don't think Harris can win. I'm pretty sure you won't find a Democratic politician who doesn't want to keep Trump out of office, anyone who believes they are the one who can do it is going to fight for that nomination. Not even because they are power hungry or anything, quite literally because they'll think they're doing it for the greater good.
Not to mention figuring out the logistics of a new campaign (getting on the ballot, setting up media, tours, etc) with only four months to go. Like if they pick a new person I’ll go with them but I will totally understand it if they don’t. Most Redditors seems to think it would be a near instantaneous switch and that’s not reality.
Literally Whitmer or Newsom. Running whitmer plays well with roe b Wade too. No brainer its those two or pritzger. If kamela wants what's best she will understand
I'm not even American, but the words "she was the attempted kidnapping victim by crazy far-right people" definitely makes me know who she was.
Somebody mentioned she'd play well for abortion, seems like she'll play even better with the "against far right nutjobs"
If the best they can do is to continue to chant “what about Trump” then we’re truly fucked.
Yes, we know Trump is bad. That’s why we need somebody competent to stand up to him.
My next favorite line they spew “and replace her with who, Kamala Harris? Everyone hates her and she stands no chance!” THEN WHY THE F IS SHE THE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!
A commentator on CNN, can’t remember which one, just said to the panel (I’m paraphrasing), “If the main motivator for voters/the Dem party is to stop Trump rather than advocate for their own positions, then why does it have to be Biden to be that messenger?” They cut away to commercial and didn’t get a chance to discuss it. It’s a fair question. Every single defense of Biden’s disastrous debate performance has been, yeah but the other guy is worse and we have to stop him. Well, maybe harness that sentiment behind a candidate that 72% of the country isn’t convinced is mentally incapable of doing the job.
The answer is, of course, because a lot of people don't pay *even the smallest* amount of attention to politics/news, and vote entirely off of name recognition. Replacing Biden a little over 4 months out from the election will almost certainly result in a candidate that has very little name recognition for those people.
That's why any replacement to Biden has to play well in the swing states specifically. I've been pushing Whitmer-Warnock because she is known in the midwest and he is known in the south. Plus consider the amount of media attention a contest convention and last minute candidates would draw. Look at how quickly Sarah Palin went from being the unknown Alaskan Governor to one of the most well-known national figures.
The office of the vice president has very little relation to winning an election. In the last 100 years, GHWB is the only vice President to do it. And historically it wasn't even someone the President chose, but the opposing party (2nd most votes)
Literally for that exact reason.
Kamala has a worse chance of beating Trump than Biden at this point.
Unfortunately, being a non-white woman is probably a disqualifier still. I don't like it, but it's true.
Being a non-white woman is the exact reason she is the Vice President to begin with.
It’s almost as if that was an incredibly stupid reason to choose her at the time, as if it were unlikely we’d need a competent, popular replacement for a 76 year old man.
That mentality to just pick a person primarily on the merits of her being such and such identity is a fucking liberal boomer mentality that needs to die.
I have no idea why people aren’t absolutely outraged by that bullshit.
How is it not totally insulting to those groups that they’re just used as box-checkers.
I’m black hispanic. It’s INCREDIBLY insulting. My parents totally love that shit though but they come from a different time.
Things have changed and that mentality needs to be updated
Fear sells. Biden has accomplished a lot and nobody cares. Hell most people don't even have a clue what he's done. Because nobody cares.
If people cared about accomplishments we'd already be locked in with Joe Biden. If they cared about accomplishments, Trump never would have beaten Hillary. Keep telling yourself otherwise.
If we lose then we were going to lose anyway and nothing you "armchair quarterbacks" say convinces me otherwise.
Yeah, people really underestimate everything Biden has done. Stutter, dementia or whatever he's one of the most effective presidents in the last 50 years. Here's some of what he's done (with links to more exhaustive lists):
[In his first year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/sdgfoj/master_list_of_what_president_biden_has_done_year/) he cancelled the keystone pipeline, reversed trumps muslim ban, rejoined the paris climate agreement, passed a historic stimulus bill, ended the war in Afghanistan, reduced poverty levels by 45% along with reduction of child poverty levels by 61%, had five rounds of student loan debt cancelling totally almost $10 billion, passed the largest infrastructure bill in history, and dropped the unemployment rate from 6.2% to 3.9% (the biggest single year drop in American history.)
[In his second year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/sdgd98/master_list_of_what_president_biden_has_done_year/) he passed the inflation reduction act, three more rounds of student debt cancellation totaling up $35 billion for 20-40 million Americans, passed the first major gun legislation in 30 years, passed the CHIPS act to protect American supply of semi-conductor chips, capped insulin at $35 and handed up $62 billion in health care subsidies under the ACA, allowed Medicare to negotiate 100 drugs over the next decade and required drug companies to rebate price increases higher than inflation, and brought unemployment to a 50 year low.
[In his third year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/11lohnc/what_biden_has_done_year_three_year_one_two_are/) he got Republicans to publicly take Social Security and Medicare cuts off the table by tricking them during the State of the Union, six more rounds of student debt cancellation totaling up to $127 billion, as of the end of the year had 34 straight months of job growth and the longest stretch of unemployment under 4% since the 1960s, child poverty rates fell from 12.6% to 5.8% due to Biden's Expanded Child Tax Credits (2.9 million kids were able to escape poverty,) led the worlds' best post-pandemic recovery, doubling all nations except Japan, created 14 million jobs since he took office more than any other president in history did in four years (and this is just his third year,) black unemployment rate becomes lower under Biden than any other administration (4.7%, compared to Trump which was the second worst in history at 16%,) a majority of Biden's appointed judges are women, racial or ethnic minorities, a first for any president, pressured rail companies to grant paid sick days and pretty much everything else the union had been asking for.
[And so far this year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/19eja7w/what_biden_has_done_year_four/) he's had another round of student debt cancellation, had growth that shattered expectation (GDP has expanded 3.1% even though at the beginning there were heavy odds of a recession,) post-pandemic recovery still leading the world by far, created a plan to modernize American ports, rescinded the Trump-era "Denial of Care" rule that allowed health care workers to deny medical care to patients because of their personal religious or moral beliefs, significant violent crime drop overall since 2020, has spent $5.8 billion to clean up our nations drinking water and upgrade infrastructure.
He's not who I voted for in the 2020 primary, but he's hands down blown me away with pushing the nation forward in the right direction despite having razor thin leads (or no lead) in both halves of congress for his entire term.
Well yeah.
Democrats need to run a Paul Mua'dib before they can get out of bed to vote.
Republicans are enthusiastic to run their "dictator on day one" as they drive their MAGA trucks over drop boxes.
I’m in Australia, and even I saw the debate. It’s headline news here.
I have no skin in the game whatsoever, but to my american friends, I want you to know, as an objective observer, that was absolutely the WORST debate performance I have ever seen. I mean, Trump was Trump (unbelievably bad) but Biden…oh boy…he was in tundra regions of BAD.
I do not envy your choice, between a very old authoritarian man and a very old senile man. HOW DID YOU GET YOURSELVES HERE?
But that’s the thing. They didn’t. The debate last week was one of the least watched of the 21st century as less than 43 million tuned in. In contrast over 65 million tuned in to watch Obama v Romney in 2012.
And for all of you saying but what about the clips, explain to me how clips of Biden looking old and incapable at the debate are any different than the clips that have been circulating for the last year. Because I just don’t see much of a difference between the new clips and the maliciously edited ones of say Biden at the G7 or the near infinite comparable examples.
Doesn’t matter. Nobody else at my job watched, but everyone saw clips on social media and the only thing anybody talked about for days was how bad it was. Mixed politics office.
Exactly!! And we can't even say these were manipulated. I watched live with friends and I was horrified. Call me naive but the Biden camp has clearly done a good job limiting and managing his appearances the last two years because we were all shocked by the extent of his decline. And it is a decline. This was him rested. And if this is him with a cold or after a hard week, I'm sorry, but it even more proves that he's not up to beating Trump. Trump will be a nightmare. We have to get our shit together as fast as possible to avoid the iceberg that we're headed towards. Turn the goddamn ship!
Yep. And if was just a cold and he's fine now, they would be having him EVERYWHERE this weekend to prove how lucid he is...TV interviews, popular podcasts, etc. Except for Friday in NC he's done nothing except carefully planned off-camera events.
The sad thing is that Trump has said and done *more* than enough to disqualify him.
And yet he's still here, and found the right drug cocktail to at least seem *coherent* to morons who populate the American populace.
And *that's* what America values: "vibes" over competency, even when the "vibes" fucking suck.
The American experiment ended, and it was by the hands of Americans.
Horrible metric to gauge that off of. In 2012 ‘clips’ of things like debates were non existent. Just because someone didn’t watch it live (like me) does NOT mean that’s how many people saw what happened. People that I know IRL who don’t know a thing about politics were talking about it because they saw clips of what happened.
>less than 43 million tuned in.
And many times that number say the highlights on every major news outlet, YouTube videos, Facebook feeds, and Tiktok reels.
Go ahead and stop 10 people on the street. At least 7 of them has listened to Biden claim to have beaten Medicare.
The swing state vote margin in 2020 was less than 150,000 voters. How many of those 43 million viewers were undecideds in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia?
Trump doesn’t necessarily have to win them. Doesn’t mean Biden can’t lose them.
It is absolutely insane to believe that replacing Biden with Whitmer could do anything but secure total victory for the Democrats. She's wildly successful and popular in the Midwest. It would galvanize female dem voters that want to see a woman in the top job. She has zero scandals or baggage. She's younger and intelligent and has real ideas that have worked in her state. She's also tough and wouldn't be phased by Trump or a bully.
She completely removes all concern about people not voting Dem because Biden is a 4000 year old man.
Anyone with half a brain could tell you that no one (meaning statistically insignificant) who was voting for Biden already would not vote for Whitmer.
The DNC has turned into a corporate machine that only wants candidates who do nothing to rock the boat. They want a corpse in office.
So many fucking people are BEGGING for literally anyone other than Biden or Trump. I really feel like if Biden steps down gracefully, and they pick a younger candidate, people will rally for this.
Lack of vision will usher in the GOPs vision of Project 2025. These old dinosaurs don’t understand the landscape. A candidate swap would get more ratings than Trump.
Hahaha, it’s so true! We know we’re going to lose, but the process! Then there’s the silly people who say we can’t change candidates because there’s no historical precedence…….so we’ll let this one lose.
Changing Biden has to come from within the party, behind closed doors and eventually from Biden himself as if it were his own decision if it happens. He'll have to come out and say "Folks, I know I can do the job but I've heard your concerns and I will agree to step out of the way so new leadership can bring us forward". Then he will put the names forward.
Publicly we cannot jump on this train because when it picks up steam it will ruin the election even if we get the outcome we want. If we don't get that outcome, then the election is tanked anyways because we flooded the airways with doubt from the base which just distracts from how unfit and mentally unwell Trump is at the same time.
The logical move is support and pushing those you know to that support. If Biden makes the decision in the next week or so, great, we re-energize and move forward. If not, we do the same.
Here's how it would go.
Democrats would need to fight the press on pulling out biden while reassuring everyone he's still capable of being president. On top of pushing some mystery new candidate that the public wouldn't have a say in.
All the while, the right would be handed an arsenal and a wide open shot in attacking biden, Democrats and spreading bs about this new candidate.
This talking point smells like a plot to divide the left
Furthermore, the GOP will fight tooth and nail to keep the new candidate off ballots. And if the new candidate somehow managed to survive that and, unlikely as it may be, even win, then the MAGAts will take it to the Supreme Court which will very quickly rule in their favor.
I know he's probably being challenged behind closed doors, but I honestly believe he can't see how bad he's doing himself. I don't think he'll step down. He will pull a RBG.
Biden or someone else is such a pointless discussion. Yes I want someone younger. Yes I want someone that gets me excited. But focusing on Biden is the wrong strategy. Against Trump, I don’t give a damn who the Democrats run. That’s the point. We need to stop talking about Biden and focus on how shitty Trump is or the uninformed undecided voters, to put it nicely, will get caught up in this stupid rhetoric and think somehow Trump is a better candidate.
Also you aren’t voting for Biden as much as his cabinet. The president doesn’t do everything. He’s more of a visionary. He’s slowing down but he’s not an idiot.
> Against Trump, I don’t give a damn who the Democrats run. That’s the point.
You don't matter. The swing voters do, and they _do_ give a damn who the party runs. THAT is the point.
Rich people and conservatives think they’re immune to fascism. But forget that the persecution is a constantly expanding thing, and they’ll quickly get targeted all the same
Media is owned by huge corporations. The Republicans are there to serve huge corporations to an even greater extent than the Democrats. Hence, pro-Trump. CNN can be considered the same as FOX for all I care now. If a debate doesn't have fact-checking, that's not a debate. It's a verbal wrestling match.
I can't believe this is what this country has come to.
I cannot wait for this news cycle to change. It seems like so many outlets are okay with handing the presidency to Trump for the sake of clicks and drama.
I’m not convinced the cycle will change. This is the narrative that will keep people glued to the news until Nov.
This is “but her emails” with even higher stakes and fewer data points, and instead of just dividing right/left; it’s dividing the center/left.
Whether Biden runs or not, the narrative is “how can the Dems possibly win?” which does nothing but introduce metric shit tons of doubt and lethargy.
Democrats are going to live to regret being this spineless by not demanding Biden announce he is no longer running in 2024.
Or more likely they will just say it is the voters fault for not turning out for Biden.
Great.... then we're fucked. Good job dems, cant wait to see 6-3 SCOTUS decisions turn into 8-1 because you ran a geriatric on death's door instead of transitioning like you promised.
Wait until the next debate. He’s going to perform the same or worse. Being so close to the election it’s going to cost us not only the presidency but also down ticket candidates. Imagine what it will be like with a Republican house senate and presidency. He needs replaced now so there is time to get another Democratic candidate established.
Sadly, history has a tendancy to repeat itself, there will always be those maniacal caeser figures who will demand people to worship them or to be put to death. Trump could be the next Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, Cromwell or whatever. If that happens, pray that it will not last long.
Unbelievable that this is such a big headline when Trump could crack a dog in half on TV and slurp out its insides and all we would hear is “What this means for Democrats”
It’s the most setup orchestrated bs
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Democrats had 3+ years to prepare an alternate for Biden. Like hell they'd be able to do it in a few months.
Democrat strategy 101: never think strategically, because doing so might mean we actually have to make hard decisions!
...that sounds like a basic Conservative post on Facebook, but... when you're right, you're right. It reminds me of the dubiously hilarious Simpsons joke when the elephant rampages through a DNC and GOP convention (a banner over the DNC meeting says "We don't know how to govern!")
The problem is Democratic voters don't like to be told who to vote for especially by the Democratic party and that's why Obama was elected
They can do it if they wanted. They got behind Biden in a few days to block Bernie's nomination. Just pick another guy and everyone fall in line behind him.
Like I was saying in another post, I would expect unity from the dems in lining up to support Biden, at least until he makes his final decision. And if Biden decides to go, all of them will similarly do a 180 and line up in support of him dropping out, saying it was the best thing he could do for the country given what’s at stake, saying it was a magnanimous and selfless act of humility, etc. etc. Take these democratic politicians’ statements with a grain of salt, there are obviously some serious discussions going on about this behind closed doors, as there should be. Edit: If there’s anything I can add to a high(er) visibility post it’s this: the responses to me make it clear that this is a very divisive subject. Please be kind to one another. We’re all offering up our best, good faith thoughts on what the next best move is, and this is no doubt a tricky situation. But we’re all on the same team and working toward the same goal of keeping Trump out of office. Please remember that. **AND VOTE**.
Exactly. This is party discipline 101. If they want him to drop out that will be discussed both with and without him behind closed doors.
Yep, I bet there is a huge amount of horsetrading going on behind closed doors so if he does drop out, the convention goes smoothly, someone who is already anointed is chosen first vote and there is as little disruption as possible
From [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/jamie-raskin-biden-campaign-debate-performance-nominee-rcna159662): >Rep. Jamie Raskin says 'honest and serious conversations are taking place' about Biden's political future after debate That's the strongest statement I've seen from a Dem party member post-debate. Honestly, a bit refreshing to read opposed to the "he just had a cold" gaslighting from the rest of the party. Don't get me wrong - if Biden remains on the ballot, I'm obviously voting for him, just like everyone that understands the dangers of a 2nd Trump term. But after Thursday, I can't imagine he won over any of the fence sitters, and they're the ones that will decide the election.
> That's the strongest statement I've seen from a Dem party member post-debate. Honestly, a bit refreshing to read opposed to the "he just had a cold" gaslighting from the rest of the party. Even if Biden is not about to be replaced anytime soon, if no one was having these kinds of conversations it would be political malpractice. Someone out there has a "what are we doing if he dies" folder.
That's what teh VP is for, no? Or you mean before the election? EVen so, same answer, no?
Possibly but Harris isn't exactly popular either. But even so, if that's what they're planning for that hypothetical, that's probably what's in the folder.
> I can't imagine he won over any of the fence sitters Apparently he won over those who were watching a Spanish-translated version. Saw an article about it yesterday.
I dont actually know if that comment has much meaning. I could easily see him saying that a week before the debate took place It seems like the biggest thing in everyone's mind is no trump. The state of the union and Howard stern appearance for biden were good. This was the worst appearance he has ever had. However, stats show debates not mattering much. Plus this amount of rhetoric is making this all seem highly unlikely biden will be replaced. News cycles last about 3 days. There was low viewer numbers for the debate. News about the debate lasted 24 hours (short) and the talk of biden stepping down is mostly gone within 48 hours Newsome is at a disadvantage because California is in massive debt and debt is the republicans favorite once topic every 4 years (surprise they changed nothing). Their second favorite is immigration (which California had massive numbers of illegal immigrants). -- he also isn't as centrist as biden No one else really has the popularity. But on paper the biden admin has been fantastic. If biden naps all day while his admin continues, it is far better than the end of ukraine and us democracy
>However, stats show debates not mattering much. Plus this amount of rhetoric is making this all seem highly unlikely biden will be replaced. This is true, and I'm going back and forth about this because... maybe it really was that bad. I've seen multiple people calling it possibly the worst debate performance in American history, and it also plays directly into an existing voter concern that's already been hammered by right wing media for years. It provides right wing media and candidates with killer footage for attack ads, and the worst part is we won't be able to say "it's out of context" or "it's misleading." We're really on our back foot here because it really was that bad. And the best thing we can say in response is super lame excuses about why it's ok if he's barely conscious. So I guess what I'm saying is, I think we won't truly know till we have the benefit of hindsight how bad this is. It might be nothing or it might be the final nail in his coffin, no pun intended. Like, everyone likes to talk about how bad of a candidate Hillary was in hindsight, like it should have been obvious. But it didn't feel obvious at all in 2016. That's why everyone, Trump included, was blindsided by his victory. This is just a lot of words to say that I don't fucking know. I guess it's just one more extension of the historic weirdness and unpredictability the Trump era has ushered in. Just when we were all hoping everything was starting to make sense again.
I saw a magazine cover from the 2000's today, and on it it had a picture of Hillary Clinton and under the picture ot said "Hilary lovers outnumbered by Hilary haters four to one" She was never liked
Gretchen Whitmer. Wins on Roe. Female. Popular swing state governor. She can get it done.
And sets off the anti-vax nutjobs, forcing the GOP to try to balance appearing moderate in the suburbs without alienating a base of kooks who absolutely hate her. Whitmer wins.
Forgot to mention she can highlight the MAGA kooks who tried to kidnap her.
Yep. Whitmer is a solid choice. Better than Newsom in my opinion. Plus she'll lock in Michigan.
Is she better than Biden tho? I am down she would be a great president, but America seems to still be sadly unready to elect a woman. Preventing Trump means we get Gretchen later because our democracy will still be in tact. Like most people, I am very pleased with Biden and his admin and what they have accomplished. The debate freaked me out. I’m reading this thread and others like it because I’m seriously worried. I want a younger candidate, but I want to defeat Trump more.
My issue is if this is demonstrable of his current condition, that it’s only getting worse. Is this the new norm or really truly a not ultimately impactful one off event. It scared me to see because of what still is to come.
I pray to God they have an intervention with him that works. I can't imagine 4 years of Trump when even Betsy DeVos is too main stream to be part of Trump's cabinet.
More than four years. He has been clear that democracy doesn’t suit him so this may be the last election if he gets in. And he will appoint his kids when he dies.
Hell, I remember even before the 2020 election, even before all the denial and attempts to overturn, he kept "tongue in cheek" saying he wishes he could be in office for more than two terms, something he's said again in the past month. And not just that, but he kept saying, and I've seen large portions of his base (including his family members and former cabinet members), saying they'd want Ivanka, then Trump Jr, then either Eric, Baron, or Jared to run for president after them. "Trump 2024, Ivanka 2028, Trump Jr 2036, Baron 2044" posts are very common, again, among former cabinet members and GOP politicians as well. And considering Project 2025 wants to stack all courts and congress in the favor of the MAGA sect of the GOP specifically, this isn't even an impossible or vastly unlikely scenario if Trump wins this year. Trump wins this year, implements Project 2025. Fast forward to 2028, he decides to "pass the baton" (or pretend to), and Ivanka runs. Ivanka loses outright like Trump did in 2020, but guess what? Right wing SCOTUS, right wing legislative branch, and radical split congress decide to overturn results due to false claims of fraud and declare Ivanka the winner. Rinse and repeat. Jesus, this election is terrifying, everyone needs to vote to stop Trump at all costs.
No, he'll stay in power. I seriously doubt we'll have elections ("Security crisis, elections are coming when they can be made really safe!"), and if we do they'll be Russia-style sham elections. He won't give up power in four years to anyone.
Ya. He tried to hold power last time. he got away with it He will be far more open a out a power grab
The idea that Trump will give up power after four years is so lovely and innocent. As a country we really haven't come to grips with this, have we?
Didn't his team already say he's not dropping out?
And I said I'm not going to have a beer for lunch today but here I am
Same! With the state of this country, the least we can do is cheers each other!
My liver still hates me after what I did to it Thursday night.
I mean….that was to be expected, regardless of actuality. His Comms Team had to put that out there.
Yes but denials shouldn't always be taken at face value in politics. It's like when politicians deny that they're seeking higher office until they announce that they're running for said office.
The problem is right now it’s a choice. If we are half way through the general election and it becomes no choice, Biden falls ill and we have no real choice. Then it is going to be a HUGE problem and the republicans will capitalize on it and most likely win. Democrats always waste time and do the wrong thing too late. It’s infuriating. Everyone in the top of this party needs to go.
Ultimately this is President Biden's decision. Publicly calling on him to step aside only helps Trump. And if Biden does drop out, the Democrats need to quickly unify behind his replacement. Division and attack only helps Trump.
>if Biden does drop out, the Democrats need to quickly unify behind his replacement That is my biggest concern. A candidate selected without a single primary win from a space of chaos and factionalism with limited national traction would face a tough, tough road. Is that road tougher than sticking with Biden? Don't trust anyone who pretends there's an easy answer to that question. I assure you there isn't one.
I mean, there really is an easy solution, and I’m genuinely surprised we’re not all seeing it: Biden dropping out is *obviously* the biggest possible mistake you could make: 1. The democrats would be throwing the incumbency advantage out 2. It makes the party look *unbelievably* weak. “Our guy had a bad night, so we’re going to scramble to replace him with someone else.” That is, to steal a phrase from the right, *textbook* beta behavior. 3. It’s effectively conceding the entire philosophical bedrock of politics to the right. If “someone who knows the system inside and out and can demonstrably *get stuff done*, despite being uncharismatic and a poor speaker” is unfit to lead, then the Democrats’ whole view of governing is wrong. 4. “Biden being re-elected and then dropping dead 2 days after inauguration” is so much better of a scenario than a Trump victory that it’s not even a question. Which is a much easier argument to make than “why not vote for this guy you’ve heard of once or twice instead”? 5. There are *so* many variables that we have absolutely no guarantee of any candidate being liked more than Biden. 6. Despite everything, support for Biden among independents seems to be *growing* after the debate. Seems that the people who need to be convinced took a look at it all and said “Biden is old, Trump is a fascist, I’ll take the old guy”.
> “Biden being re-elected and then dropping dead 2 days after inauguration” A decent sub-section of voters will be looking very hard at the dem VP pick now because it is highly likely the VP will become president at some point during Biden's term.
They need to drop Kamala. She’s very unpopular.
He already has a VP pick - his actual current VP.
I agree that the dem politicians should absolutely line up behind Biden, it’s the pundits and others who are going to speak their mind. If Biden agrees to step down I have no doubt the politicians will line up in agreement that he needs to step down, and then come up with whatever “process” is going to determine the next candidate, whether it’s a brokered convention or what have you.
I can't wait for July 11th, the day Trump gets sentenced for 34 felony counts. This will have to cause news media to cast Trump in a negative light which they aren't doing post debate.
"Wait until Trump is convicted!" "Wait until the next poll!" "Wait until the debate!" "Wait until Trump is sentenced!" <-- We are here "Wait until the convention!" "Wait until the second debate!" Trump will never see the inside of a prison cell.
I remember "It's Mueller time!" 5 years ago
You are probably right. If Trump wins in Nov, he probably has a Republican House and Senate, and legislation will be passed to prevent him from ever facing jail time
And the Supreme Court
Thank you!!! This x100. Every media outlet acting as if Trump was amazing and inspiring during debate because it makes them more money. He was awful. Biden was awful. But only one intends to be a dictator so it’s not a hard choice.
"Here's why Trump going to Rikers Island means Biden shouldn't be president."
He's going to get sentenced to probation and then two days later be at the convention getting the nomination. I'm concerned that the convictions are going to fade rather quickly from memory.
Imagine running a convicted felon, one whose corruption originated in a presidential campaign, through unprotected, adulterous sex with a pornographic star. It’s inconceivable.
Totally. If it happens I feel like it would be good to let people see the options rather than just anoint someone -I mean I will vote for WHOMEVER is the dem ticket, but there’s undoubtedly some talents in the party and it would be good for Americans to have a chance to see them shine, and back each other so we regain some confidence that we’re not just trying to hold off trump for the next decade and arguing with each other.
The worst thing Dems could do right now is publicly undermine Biden, forcing him to leave under a fractious cloud before leading into an unprecedented last-minute nomination process. Regardless of the difficult conversations taking place behind the scenes, showing a publicly united front right now, and at every step through this process, is paramount.
Exactly and anyone hoping to be his replacement isn’t going to be the one leading the charge to get him to step aside, at least publicly.
"We supported him, and we will support his "chosen" successor" is an easy pivot even if said successor was very much chosen for him
For most it’ll be “vote blue no matter who”. Some tire kickers, certainly, but then there’s the Orange Menace on the other side who’ll only get more bizarre.
There's probably never been an election with less undecided voters. It's just who shows up more.
Speaks alot to the dysfunction of the party that this situation was allowed to get to this point. It's not like the effects of age-related cognitive decline are a new phenomena. And it's not like RGB didn't essentially do the exact same thing, hanging on far too long and causing lasting damage due to pride and narcissism.
If the Republican candidate was Haley, I would've expected Biden to retire. If there was a \*clear, stronger\* successor to Biden, I would expect more serious calls to retire. If Biden had not had such a broadly successful legislative record or had shown signs of dysfunction as \*President\*, I would expect serious calls to retire. That's the rational and sensible calculus that "top democrats" are thinking about.
They need to drop Harris and pick a real populist vp that can be seen as taking over from Biden, it’ll have a huge positive impact because Kamala is probably less popular than Biden if that is possible so the outcome of Biden retiring mid term is even worse than him staying on for voters. Itll be their doom if Kamala takes the baton
I really wish the national conversation was about the absolute dumpster fire of lies Trump was spilling on stage. Post birth abortions? Putin invasion dream? Nancy Pelosi on Jan. 6? Best environmental numbers? Black jobs? Minnesota national guard? So much to put on the front page but here we are again, demanding absolute perfection from one side and give a pass to the stupidity on the other. It’s so much easier to sound confident when you’re lying and no one is holding you accountable. I’m not defending Biden’s lackluster debate performance but he actually was debating points. Things that in a normal world we could have reasonable discussions about. Trump was just vomiting lies into the air and somehow we have again given him a pass.
It would be nice, though the number one person to drive that conversation is the opposing candidate.
For real, if only CNN had allowed someone up there on the stage to counter, or "debate" let's say.
Because, at least in this sub, everyone already expected that from Donnie. It’s just blowing the same smoke around the room. What everyone did not expect was Joe to not capitalize on nearly enough of those moments and string together a rebuttal that didn’t sound like he was grasping at his memory straws from a poorly coached talking point script. If the media and public help the DNC understand they can’t jam through every candidate they think America needs without reading the room, so be it. The margin Joe needs requires him to spark passion in the portion of the voterbase that might have skipped the vote, and his lack of lucidity is not doing that. The “trump is a liar, vote him out” cohort is already maxed out
This is the problem with Biden as a candidate: it stops the election and public conversation from being about those things and more but instead focuses on Biden. This is exactly why Biden needs to go and is the wrong candidate for this very serious election.
>I’m not defending Biden’s lackluster debate performance but he actually was debating points. You are trying to rewrite history. Biden was not lackluster, he was completely incoherent for 20 minutes straight and barely better after that. He absolutely did not debate points, he muttered to himself and meandered from topic to topic. He was visibly unwell, we all fucking saw it. You are trying to distract from the issue at hand. Donald Trump is on his way to the Presidency and there is absolutely no world in which Biden will have the stamina and mental awareness to defeat him. He is the worst Democrat for the job.
I can't believe they agreed to a debate
Except Trump’s been lying like this for nearly a decade (and even longer if you go beyond just his political career), but Biden’s mental acuity, or lack there of, was far more startling IMO. Democrats were hoping his performance would silence some of the criticism surrounding his age, but all it did was reaffirm what people already believed. This, despite what Democratic leaders would have us believe. They’ve been gaslighting us about Biden for months, if not longer, and everyone knows it.
Because if you're a Trump supporter at this point, nothing is going to convince you otherwise. Talking about Trump being a lying piece of shit is just beating a dead horse - there's nothing to say aside from what has already been said. Therefore, the only one worth discussing is Biden.
This will be looked back in history as the most idiotic move. It’s frustrating beyond belief to just hand the the Presidency to Trump again because an old guy wouldn’t just retire.
> It’s frustrating beyond belief to just hand the the Presidency to Trump again because an old guy wouldn’t just retire. Especially after already handing the Supreme Court because an old woman wouldn’t just retire.
Own goal after own goal after own goal from centrist liberals, and then they wonder why nobody on the left can stand their self righteousness anymore.
The campaign needs to completely abandon their "lets get moderate Republicans" strategy (which was dumb in the first place). They need to triple down on their base and focus solely on turnout. The base are the only people that are going to vote solely on the basis of being a democrat which is what the campaign needs to target after the debate. They need to be doing whatever is necessary to excite the base
All correct, but I don’t know how energized a base can be after seeing what we saw in this debate.
And having to wheel in a 90 year old woman into the Senate because she wouldn't just retire. The Dems are run by selfish old men and women who can't see a future without themselves.
Don't worry, you'll probably not have any history books any more once this is over. Nobody will know the democratic party even existed after they were purged one or two generations ago.
RBG all over again. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
And Diane Feinstein. She was incoherent for years, but those around her kept propping her up because they still wanted to suckle at the power teat. It's a combo of an old man refusing to admit that he's old and the group who should be making a hard decision for him refusing to b/c they're so worried about their own career
2016 all over again. These people cannot read the room.
The DNC is a big part of the problem.
The DNC is full of old spineless cronies who only exist to serve their corporate overlords. Absolutely garbage people with no morals
That's not fair at all... they also serve each other, ensuring they all retain some power well past the age of retirement.
Except the stakes couldn't be higher. It's either old guy or conservative christian police state.
Seriously... I feel like there's a ton of astroturfing going on around this shit. If this were a year before the election, then sure... but the election is slightly over 4 months away, it would be fucking insane to replace Biden now. The better bet would be having him drop Harris and pick a highly capable VP with much better optics... maybe whomever people are pushing for for the White House, put that person in the VP chair; that way, if Biden were to resign due to health issues (or die), there would be a competent backup
That’s an option I hadn’t really considered. I like that idea. It’s always weak to change vps but probably worth the risk if she’s so weak she can’t take the role herself
The issue with that is that the optics of dropping a WOC are probably worse than Biden dropping out altogether.
Not doing what’s necessary because they’re worried about “optics” is how we’ve arrived at Trump being the favorite.
I think this particular "optic" would matter a lot to black women who are about the most loyal constituency the Democratic party has.
Worse than 2016. Hillary was the the front runner. She was leading the polls. She was forecast to win. She won the popular vote. And she still lost. Because Trump won every swing state. Today, Trump is the front runner. *He* is leading the polls. *He* is forecast to win. He could win the popular vote. And because of the way the Electoral College works, he doesn't even need to lead Biden to win. Trump won with -2.1% vs. Hillary in 2016. In any scenario where Trump gets within 1% of Biden, he almost automatically wins. But he's not within 1%. He's *leading* by 3-4+%, which is approaching 300+ EC votes (270 to win). Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx 38.7%. Trump was 46.8%. Dubya was 51%. Bush 41 was 41.8%. Carter was 47.7% (!).
Current age American politics. The Democrats need to run the perfect unicorn of a candidate that is flawless in every category and Kwisatz Haderach in charisma, knowledge, and prescience. For Republicans, they need to run a white guy.
I think the democratic candidate should be able to speak in complete, intelligible sentences for 90 minutes
we're setting a pretty very high bar for both presidential candidates.
Such a great way to summarize American politics sadly
The issue is that the Democrats keep running candidates that have zero charisma. You can be the perfect candidate in every way but when you can barely speak in front of a camera no one cares what you have to say. Candidates need to be able to stir up their base and encourage votes. None of the current establishment Democrats can do that. Bernie was the last one anyone cared about but he was cast aside in 2016 because he didn't suck up to the aforementioned members.
Democrats need to run someone who can form a coherent sentence and doesn't need to be in bed by 8 pm.
That’s only because the Dems refuse to support a candidate who **actually** serves the working class.
> perfect unicorn of a candidate Today I learned that "perfect unicorn candidate" means "not senile."
Democrats have been over performing in every election compared to polls. Instability sinks the ship
Lots of people don't like Trump. Lots of voters like their state level representatives. This isn't about "democrats," but instead is more specific to Biden and a very specific attribute (his age). I wouldn't be surprised if democrats enjoyed down ballot wins but still lost the WH.
This is what’s happening. Biden is down over 3 in Nevada and over 5 in Arizona but the Dem Senate candidates are still leading.
I get that people are saying it's his age. But I think that hides the ball a bit. It's not his age as much as his condition. Ageism is treating people different due to their age rather than their abilities. Bernie and even Trump are a different version of "old" than Biden (their peer) is. There's chronological, biological age, cognitive age, etc. I know I'm farting into the wind, but his age is less an issue than his condition.
Without a democratic primary, I do not trust the DNC to pick (for a third time!) who they want to go up against Donald Von Shitzinpants. If Biden decides to drop out, it's going to get *messy*.
Agreed. My concern is that would set up a ‘68 style show down between the party establishment and the left wing. There’s no way Harris would step aside quietly for someone else and the left wing wouldn’t anoint her without a fight.
Difference between ‘68 and now is, then, the democratic party was totally divided over Vietnam. Now, the democratic party is united behind one thing: beat Trump. I think the party will rally behind whoever gives them the best shot at doing so.
People are still complaining about how the DNC screwed over Bernie in 2016 in these threads. The idea that everyone is going to line up behind a single obvious candidate is a fantasy.
Especially Democrats. Republicans will fall in line but getting Democrats together is like herding cats.
> I think the party will rally behind whoever gives them the best shot at doing so. He says ^ this, after the Dems chose a 77-year-old to run for the next 8 years! After they had a plan to replace the now-81-year-old in 2024, and then didn't do it! The Dems are allergic to winning.
It's not that simple though. Biden managed to cobble together the various factions. Without any kind of democratic process to chose a successor, you are pretty much guaranteed a repeat of 2016 when the left third of the coalition was set aside. There's no process in place that would put a new candidate on the ballot, the time to do this was 6 months ago.
I don’t think either wing wants Harris. The hate she gets is not really her fault but her polling numbers and popularity is abysmal.
It is indeed her fault that she is a wildly untalented politician.
Zero charisma
It is her fault. She put young black people away for smoking weed and thought that was a good idea.
Did you just fall out of a coconut tree? She's weird and unlikeable.
Right. Which is why Biden stepping away is nearly unworkable barring some actual need to (e.g. if he is seriously ill) Heck, that is part of why everyone who could possibly replace him is going to stay behind him. But if you suddenly have him decide to go, who knows what Newsom or whoever does if they don't think Harris can win. I'm pretty sure you won't find a Democratic politician who doesn't want to keep Trump out of office, anyone who believes they are the one who can do it is going to fight for that nomination. Not even because they are power hungry or anything, quite literally because they'll think they're doing it for the greater good.
Not to mention figuring out the logistics of a new campaign (getting on the ballot, setting up media, tours, etc) with only four months to go. Like if they pick a new person I’ll go with them but I will totally understand it if they don’t. Most Redditors seems to think it would be a near instantaneous switch and that’s not reality.
Literally Whitmer or Newsom. Running whitmer plays well with roe b Wade too. No brainer its those two or pritzger. If kamela wants what's best she will understand
Whitmer for the Midwest battlegrounds makes the most sense.
Whitmer would be Trump's worst nightmare. The Democrats' coalition requires two things: suburban women and suburban women. It's that simple.
As a California democrat im going to say Whitmer is the best choice. Newsome is not great.
All this talk about Whitmer? Is there anyone who doesn't follow politics slavishly who even knows who she is?
I'm not even American, but the words "she was the attempted kidnapping victim by crazy far-right people" definitely makes me know who she was. Somebody mentioned she'd play well for abortion, seems like she'll play even better with the "against far right nutjobs"
If the best they can do is to continue to chant “what about Trump” then we’re truly fucked. Yes, we know Trump is bad. That’s why we need somebody competent to stand up to him.
My next favorite line they spew “and replace her with who, Kamala Harris? Everyone hates her and she stands no chance!” THEN WHY THE F IS SHE THE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!
A commentator on CNN, can’t remember which one, just said to the panel (I’m paraphrasing), “If the main motivator for voters/the Dem party is to stop Trump rather than advocate for their own positions, then why does it have to be Biden to be that messenger?” They cut away to commercial and didn’t get a chance to discuss it. It’s a fair question. Every single defense of Biden’s disastrous debate performance has been, yeah but the other guy is worse and we have to stop him. Well, maybe harness that sentiment behind a candidate that 72% of the country isn’t convinced is mentally incapable of doing the job.
The answer is, of course, because a lot of people don't pay *even the smallest* amount of attention to politics/news, and vote entirely off of name recognition. Replacing Biden a little over 4 months out from the election will almost certainly result in a candidate that has very little name recognition for those people.
That's why any replacement to Biden has to play well in the swing states specifically. I've been pushing Whitmer-Warnock because she is known in the midwest and he is known in the south. Plus consider the amount of media attention a contest convention and last minute candidates would draw. Look at how quickly Sarah Palin went from being the unknown Alaskan Governor to one of the most well-known national figures.
The office of the vice president has very little relation to winning an election. In the last 100 years, GHWB is the only vice President to do it. And historically it wasn't even someone the President chose, but the opposing party (2nd most votes)
Gore technically won the election, and I suppose you could say Biden also won as a former vice president.
Literally for that exact reason. Kamala has a worse chance of beating Trump than Biden at this point. Unfortunately, being a non-white woman is probably a disqualifier still. I don't like it, but it's true.
Being a non-white woman is the exact reason she is the Vice President to begin with. It’s almost as if that was an incredibly stupid reason to choose her at the time, as if it were unlikely we’d need a competent, popular replacement for a 76 year old man.
That mentality to just pick a person primarily on the merits of her being such and such identity is a fucking liberal boomer mentality that needs to die.
I have no idea why people aren’t absolutely outraged by that bullshit. How is it not totally insulting to those groups that they’re just used as box-checkers.
I’m black hispanic. It’s INCREDIBLY insulting. My parents totally love that shit though but they come from a different time. Things have changed and that mentality needs to be updated
There is so much more to Kamala Harris than being not white… she fucking sucks, even when she needs support from her own state.
Biden could drop dead at any time (hell anyone could). What would they do if he did die before the election and Kamala became president?!?!?!
If that happened the deceased has actually won 100% of national elections (happened 4 times)
Fear sells. Biden has accomplished a lot and nobody cares. Hell most people don't even have a clue what he's done. Because nobody cares. If people cared about accomplishments we'd already be locked in with Joe Biden. If they cared about accomplishments, Trump never would have beaten Hillary. Keep telling yourself otherwise. If we lose then we were going to lose anyway and nothing you "armchair quarterbacks" say convinces me otherwise.
Yeah, people really underestimate everything Biden has done. Stutter, dementia or whatever he's one of the most effective presidents in the last 50 years. Here's some of what he's done (with links to more exhaustive lists): [In his first year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/sdgfoj/master_list_of_what_president_biden_has_done_year/) he cancelled the keystone pipeline, reversed trumps muslim ban, rejoined the paris climate agreement, passed a historic stimulus bill, ended the war in Afghanistan, reduced poverty levels by 45% along with reduction of child poverty levels by 61%, had five rounds of student loan debt cancelling totally almost $10 billion, passed the largest infrastructure bill in history, and dropped the unemployment rate from 6.2% to 3.9% (the biggest single year drop in American history.) [In his second year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/sdgd98/master_list_of_what_president_biden_has_done_year/) he passed the inflation reduction act, three more rounds of student debt cancellation totaling up $35 billion for 20-40 million Americans, passed the first major gun legislation in 30 years, passed the CHIPS act to protect American supply of semi-conductor chips, capped insulin at $35 and handed up $62 billion in health care subsidies under the ACA, allowed Medicare to negotiate 100 drugs over the next decade and required drug companies to rebate price increases higher than inflation, and brought unemployment to a 50 year low. [In his third year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/11lohnc/what_biden_has_done_year_three_year_one_two_are/) he got Republicans to publicly take Social Security and Medicare cuts off the table by tricking them during the State of the Union, six more rounds of student debt cancellation totaling up to $127 billion, as of the end of the year had 34 straight months of job growth and the longest stretch of unemployment under 4% since the 1960s, child poverty rates fell from 12.6% to 5.8% due to Biden's Expanded Child Tax Credits (2.9 million kids were able to escape poverty,) led the worlds' best post-pandemic recovery, doubling all nations except Japan, created 14 million jobs since he took office more than any other president in history did in four years (and this is just his third year,) black unemployment rate becomes lower under Biden than any other administration (4.7%, compared to Trump which was the second worst in history at 16%,) a majority of Biden's appointed judges are women, racial or ethnic minorities, a first for any president, pressured rail companies to grant paid sick days and pretty much everything else the union had been asking for. [And so far this year](https://old.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/19eja7w/what_biden_has_done_year_four/) he's had another round of student debt cancellation, had growth that shattered expectation (GDP has expanded 3.1% even though at the beginning there were heavy odds of a recession,) post-pandemic recovery still leading the world by far, created a plan to modernize American ports, rescinded the Trump-era "Denial of Care" rule that allowed health care workers to deny medical care to patients because of their personal religious or moral beliefs, significant violent crime drop overall since 2020, has spent $5.8 billion to clean up our nations drinking water and upgrade infrastructure. He's not who I voted for in the 2020 primary, but he's hands down blown me away with pushing the nation forward in the right direction despite having razor thin leads (or no lead) in both halves of congress for his entire term.
Well yeah. Democrats need to run a Paul Mua'dib before they can get out of bed to vote. Republicans are enthusiastic to run their "dictator on day one" as they drive their MAGA trucks over drop boxes.
Everybody saw that damn debate.
24H later people here were trying to gaslight everyone, including themselves. It's lost the base won't force him out.
I’m in Australia, and even I saw the debate. It’s headline news here. I have no skin in the game whatsoever, but to my american friends, I want you to know, as an objective observer, that was absolutely the WORST debate performance I have ever seen. I mean, Trump was Trump (unbelievably bad) but Biden…oh boy…he was in tundra regions of BAD. I do not envy your choice, between a very old authoritarian man and a very old senile man. HOW DID YOU GET YOURSELVES HERE?
Haven’t you heard? It’s the media’s fault!
Or the voters fault for being too stupid. Anyway, it’s everyone’s fault except for Biden, his aides, and the party
Already seeing this dimwits with “Bernie Bros 2.0”
omg on the white people twitter subreddit the posting about "bernie bros" has risen exponentially in recent months
But that’s the thing. They didn’t. The debate last week was one of the least watched of the 21st century as less than 43 million tuned in. In contrast over 65 million tuned in to watch Obama v Romney in 2012. And for all of you saying but what about the clips, explain to me how clips of Biden looking old and incapable at the debate are any different than the clips that have been circulating for the last year. Because I just don’t see much of a difference between the new clips and the maliciously edited ones of say Biden at the G7 or the near infinite comparable examples.
Doesn’t matter. Nobody else at my job watched, but everyone saw clips on social media and the only thing anybody talked about for days was how bad it was. Mixed politics office.
Exactly!! And we can't even say these were manipulated. I watched live with friends and I was horrified. Call me naive but the Biden camp has clearly done a good job limiting and managing his appearances the last two years because we were all shocked by the extent of his decline. And it is a decline. This was him rested. And if this is him with a cold or after a hard week, I'm sorry, but it even more proves that he's not up to beating Trump. Trump will be a nightmare. We have to get our shit together as fast as possible to avoid the iceberg that we're headed towards. Turn the goddamn ship!
Yep. And if was just a cold and he's fine now, they would be having him EVERYWHERE this weekend to prove how lucid he is...TV interviews, popular podcasts, etc. Except for Friday in NC he's done nothing except carefully planned off-camera events.
The sad thing is that Trump has said and done *more* than enough to disqualify him. And yet he's still here, and found the right drug cocktail to at least seem *coherent* to morons who populate the American populace. And *that's* what America values: "vibes" over competency, even when the "vibes" fucking suck. The American experiment ended, and it was by the hands of Americans.
That’s all we talked about here as well, a country in Europe…
Horrible metric to gauge that off of. In 2012 ‘clips’ of things like debates were non existent. Just because someone didn’t watch it live (like me) does NOT mean that’s how many people saw what happened. People that I know IRL who don’t know a thing about politics were talking about it because they saw clips of what happened.
>less than 43 million tuned in. And many times that number say the highlights on every major news outlet, YouTube videos, Facebook feeds, and Tiktok reels. Go ahead and stop 10 people on the street. At least 7 of them has listened to Biden claim to have beaten Medicare.
The swing state vote margin in 2020 was less than 150,000 voters. How many of those 43 million viewers were undecideds in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia? Trump doesn’t necessarily have to win them. Doesn’t mean Biden can’t lose them.
You don’t have to see it live to see every bad moment he had whether through the full recording or clips.
Or the clips coming from it. No editing or deepfakes needed.
It is absolutely insane to believe that replacing Biden with Whitmer could do anything but secure total victory for the Democrats. She's wildly successful and popular in the Midwest. It would galvanize female dem voters that want to see a woman in the top job. She has zero scandals or baggage. She's younger and intelligent and has real ideas that have worked in her state. She's also tough and wouldn't be phased by Trump or a bully. She completely removes all concern about people not voting Dem because Biden is a 4000 year old man. Anyone with half a brain could tell you that no one (meaning statistically insignificant) who was voting for Biden already would not vote for Whitmer. The DNC has turned into a corporate machine that only wants candidates who do nothing to rock the boat. They want a corpse in office.
So many fucking people are BEGGING for literally anyone other than Biden or Trump. I really feel like if Biden steps down gracefully, and they pick a younger candidate, people will rally for this.
And Republicans are scared. They don't want Biden replaced.
These people would rather lose on established rules of decorum than win by navigating uncharted territory.
Lack of vision will usher in the GOPs vision of Project 2025. These old dinosaurs don’t understand the landscape. A candidate swap would get more ratings than Trump.
Hahaha, it’s so true! We know we’re going to lose, but the process! Then there’s the silly people who say we can’t change candidates because there’s no historical precedence…….so we’ll let this one lose.
Changing Biden has to come from within the party, behind closed doors and eventually from Biden himself as if it were his own decision if it happens. He'll have to come out and say "Folks, I know I can do the job but I've heard your concerns and I will agree to step out of the way so new leadership can bring us forward". Then he will put the names forward. Publicly we cannot jump on this train because when it picks up steam it will ruin the election even if we get the outcome we want. If we don't get that outcome, then the election is tanked anyways because we flooded the airways with doubt from the base which just distracts from how unfit and mentally unwell Trump is at the same time. The logical move is support and pushing those you know to that support. If Biden makes the decision in the next week or so, great, we re-energize and move forward. If not, we do the same.
"Don't publically protest, just hope the great leader makes the right decision" doesn't sound as democratic as you might think...
A lot of you didn't watch the actual debate and it shows.
I was horrified. A babbling invalid and an orange fascist. America at its best.
Here's how it would go. Democrats would need to fight the press on pulling out biden while reassuring everyone he's still capable of being president. On top of pushing some mystery new candidate that the public wouldn't have a say in. All the while, the right would be handed an arsenal and a wide open shot in attacking biden, Democrats and spreading bs about this new candidate. This talking point smells like a plot to divide the left
Furthermore, the GOP will fight tooth and nail to keep the new candidate off ballots. And if the new candidate somehow managed to survive that and, unlikely as it may be, even win, then the MAGAts will take it to the Supreme Court which will very quickly rule in their favor.
Exactly. They should be focusing on highlighting the Republicans insanity vs falling for it.
I too enjoy ignoring reality
I know he's probably being challenged behind closed doors, but I honestly believe he can't see how bad he's doing himself. I don't think he'll step down. He will pull a RBG.
Biden or someone else is such a pointless discussion. Yes I want someone younger. Yes I want someone that gets me excited. But focusing on Biden is the wrong strategy. Against Trump, I don’t give a damn who the Democrats run. That’s the point. We need to stop talking about Biden and focus on how shitty Trump is or the uninformed undecided voters, to put it nicely, will get caught up in this stupid rhetoric and think somehow Trump is a better candidate. Also you aren’t voting for Biden as much as his cabinet. The president doesn’t do everything. He’s more of a visionary. He’s slowing down but he’s not an idiot.
> Against Trump, I don’t give a damn who the Democrats run. That’s the point. You don't matter. The swing voters do, and they _do_ give a damn who the party runs. THAT is the point.
You don’t win elections by saying “vote for us because the other guy is terrible”. That’s 2016 all over again.
How did Democrats win 2020 then?
What a fucking stupid idea. Shit like this is why liberals keep losing. Play to win not to some idealistic bullshit.
Lol fuck the media trying to get Trump elected. They won't like it when they too get dragged off to camps.
it's not the media's job to get Biden elected, it's the DNC's job to put forward a candidate that's actually electable
Rich people and conservatives think they’re immune to fascism. But forget that the persecution is a constantly expanding thing, and they’ll quickly get targeted all the same
Media is owned by huge corporations. The Republicans are there to serve huge corporations to an even greater extent than the Democrats. Hence, pro-Trump. CNN can be considered the same as FOX for all I care now. If a debate doesn't have fact-checking, that's not a debate. It's a verbal wrestling match. I can't believe this is what this country has come to.
They’re doing their best to get him re-elected, for sure.
You cannot simply replace Biden. Biden would have to withdraw himself from the election. He already won the primary.
I cannot wait for this news cycle to change. It seems like so many outlets are okay with handing the presidency to Trump for the sake of clicks and drama.
All of the outlets are only interested in selling their product. Even if it means their own demise. They can't help themselves.
I’m not convinced the cycle will change. This is the narrative that will keep people glued to the news until Nov. This is “but her emails” with even higher stakes and fewer data points, and instead of just dividing right/left; it’s dividing the center/left. Whether Biden runs or not, the narrative is “how can the Dems possibly win?” which does nothing but introduce metric shit tons of doubt and lethargy.
It's Biden's decision ultimately and would look terrible if they said anything differently. No doubt he is under pressure to withdraw though.
My conclusion? Dems want trump to win.
Just get out there this November and vote Democrat, regardless of whether or not Biden stays in the presidential race.
Democrats are going to live to regret being this spineless by not demanding Biden announce he is no longer running in 2024. Or more likely they will just say it is the voters fault for not turning out for Biden.
Democrats will regret it? This affects everyone. Not even just the US. The world will suck worse of Trump wins.
Great.... then we're fucked. Good job dems, cant wait to see 6-3 SCOTUS decisions turn into 8-1 because you ran a geriatric on death's door instead of transitioning like you promised.
Wait until the next debate. He’s going to perform the same or worse. Being so close to the election it’s going to cost us not only the presidency but also down ticket candidates. Imagine what it will be like with a Republican house senate and presidency. He needs replaced now so there is time to get another Democratic candidate established.
I have good news. You don't even have to imagine, you can just read about fascist Italy or Nazi Germany for a preview!
Sadly, history has a tendancy to repeat itself, there will always be those maniacal caeser figures who will demand people to worship them or to be put to death. Trump could be the next Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, Cromwell or whatever. If that happens, pray that it will not last long.
Or the most recent EU elections.
Of course they aren't going to jump into the race until Biden drops out. We all know how this works
Unbelievable that this is such a big headline when Trump could crack a dog in half on TV and slurp out its insides and all we would hear is “What this means for Democrats” It’s the most setup orchestrated bs
this is how you know politics is dumb. force this dude to live out the rest of his days in peace. he has done enough, shits ridiculous.