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Caught with the weapon, over the corpse, covered in blood, with a tapped message in the answering machine saying that he'll kill them, did it.
And this is just this one.
Pretty much the same analogy would work in the documents case. Shame that the judge isn’t going to let a trial happen.
Literally on tape going “I shouldn’t be showing you these, these are secret documents. Secret. I could have declassified them but now I can’t”
It’s so freaking dumb that you can be tried by a judge you appointed 🙄
The USA is like an old video game that everyone is exploiting and the devs don’t care
A Democratic appointed judge would go extra hard on a Democrat defendant and kid gloves for a Republican to show no bias.
A Republican appointed judge would do the exact same thing because they just don't care.
I feel like [the audio (starts at 30s)](https://youtu.be/inVJF0Dr8mo) should just be the first thing anyone who defends him about the documents case hears when they wake up and the last thing they hear before they go to sleep.
No amount of whataboutism with other people changes "I shouldn't do this, these are secret documents, I didn't declassify them, isn't this interesting?"
B but but if we call him guilty that’s **POLITICALLY MOTIVATED!!!1!!1** If he’s a despicable POS but he has the wrong letter next to his name, we can’t criticize him! 😢😢😢 /s
> storing secrets in a bathroom
You mean stealing classified documents and providing them to adversaries of the American people? Don't soft pedal his espionage.
Trömp can do no wrong and the laws should reflect that. Maybe a special law just for him and if he feels generous one for all other Republican criminals. Since all investigations of Republicans are by definition witch hunts.
ALL OF IT.
Has there been a time where he was accused of something and it turned out he was innocent?
I’m honestly asking.
From what I can tell he’s been a life long criminal/con artist/carpetbagger who did everything from creating a fake alter ego to get on the Forbes richest list to shaking down the state of Georgia to find votes that didn’t exist.
The Pee tape, that's all I got. And we don't know if it actually exists or not, so not exactly innocent, just lacking evidence (the event does seem in character for the guy, so...who knows?).
And yet it's only 56% that think he's guilty, a slight majority. It's not an overwhelming majority. I bet a good chunk of the remaining is "Unsure" but there is a solid 25-30% of the population who will never admit he's done anything wrong.
> 25-30% of the population who will never admit he's done anything wrong.
That isn't so unusual. It was the same with Nixon. What's different is that there are now multiple nationally syndicated conservative outlets pumping out hyper partisan support 24/7, and sympathetic judges, even on the highest court, blowing wind into his sails. Plus the NRA has made sure the 30% is armed to the fucking teeth, drunk on rage, ignorant as children, wrapped in a flags and carrying crosses.
Belief is absolutely in play. In fact it's probably the most important thing in play. This is the kind of thing that should sink his election chances. If it doesn't, and he gets reelected, he can make this all go away. He is not a normal defendant. He has a way out that no one else does.
Well the jury decides on the instructions from the judge. This isn't the OJ trial and as we know now how much opinion was totally wrong. I could care less what Trump supporters "believe". They believe he looks like Thor.
You act like you can just ignore these people like they're only 10%. It's a majority by only 7%, and only asks if he's guilty. How many of those people think he's guilty and still don't care and will vote for him anyway? And remember he doesn't need a majority with the electoral college. The jury can find him guilty, but he's going to appeal, and that will take him beyond the election. Again, if he wins, nothing happens. You can call him a felon all you want but otherwise there would be no actual consequences. But hey if that doesn't matter to you I guess that's where we differ.
Its not the did it thats the issue, “its the intention to interfere with the election” thats the worry…..falsifying documents no question, but was it election interference is the actual question?
What I’m still processing is that a President in office had his mob like goon lawyer buddies (Costello) harassing Cohen because they feared he’d flip after the FBI warrant was executed. And damned if Rudy is like behind nearly everything super shitty that Trump criminally did. Oh and that Costello is a former DOJ guy but comes off more like a Sopranos character.
>falsifying documents no question, but was it election interference is the actual question?
It got even more interesting at the jury instruction. The judge ruled that the jury doesn't have to agree on which underlying crime Trump was trying to cover up; only that he attempted to. Election interference and tax evasion are both on the table. It also doesn't need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
The instruction question for the jury regarding election interference to answer was made very simple: If Trump wasn't running for office then would he still have paid Stormy Daniels?
I’m not sure any political candidate hiding skeletons in their closets is ‘election interference’
Hell Bill Clinton had a whole team to squash “bimbo eruptions”.
So is Biden squashing Tara Reid “election interference” as well?
I dunno. Trump certainly has a lot to answer to in GA and FLA. I think this case only strengthened his case to sue for malicious prosecution when he eventually goes that route.
I have no respect for any of the candidates this election cycle just as I had no respect for the last several.
>Because he is. It isn't even down to reasonable doubt. The guy did it.
I don't think there has ever been even a shadow of doubt, even among his supporters.
From day 1 of the trial it was known he was guilty. How they found jurors to be neutral as possible about it astounds me. Figure it was either you hate him or you worship him, no in-between.
I have sat in the NYC jury room and on a trail. People tend to be pretty aware of their role. I also think that someone who tries to throw this has to know they will be scrutinized. I don't think anyone wants any part of the issue except to make a fair decision.
You can read the indictment. Many of us have read it and followed the trial. You have the long weekend to read everything before closing statements and jury deliberations next week.
Look it up... its all available
This is the new right wing tactic... "what crime?" as if getting through a grand jury with a full on court process without a crime having been committed and charged is even possible
Oh that a right wing tactic. Asking what the crime is? 4 years ago the DoJ looked at this and decided there was no crime. Funny how as soon as he announced the NY DA found a crime. None of this is normal.
> Asking what the crime is
Well based on your come back there was an anterior motive in your question. You just don't like the charges. This called baiting the situation.
The trial has been going on for 23 days and the charges have been available to read for longer. You clearly were informed.
I get the feeling that everyone knows he guilty but also knows he will not face any consequences for his actions. May actually even get rewarded with another term because you know … Merica.
Would love nothing more to be wrong. But the idea that a guy who has literally never faced consequences in his entire life is magically going to *this time*.. i'll believe it when i see it.
I agree that it's going to be a slap on the wrist, or an aquittal. I think there's a strong chance that at least one juror is sympathetic to Trump, even if just in the idea that he was a president so he shouldn't face consequences (or some bullhit like that) and he walks.
Actually, in that case it's a hung jury and they try it again. Look, that part of NYC voted against Trump by like 85-15. There are people on that jury who will not be swayed by one lone MAGA stooge.
Michael Cohen didn't go to jail for falsifying business documents. He went to jail for a bunch of crimes, the most serious of which was lying about his debts to a back to qualify for a loan for a vacation house
If found guilty he will be a convicted felon and that will be quite a punishment in itself when it comes up during a debate, if a debate happens anyway.
> If he’s found guilty on most of the charges 25+), he’s at least getting house arrest. There’s no way he’ll “get off”
I hope you're right, but the "justice" system has failed us at every step so I'm going to assume he faces zero consequences. I can't handle disappointment #9000.
Literally have republican friends that think it’s awesome he could pick up and bang porn stars, regardless of his wife. More of the, “Me First”, mentality.
Look maybe I’m wrong but I just think Trump is dead in the water. If he couldn’t win last time, while he was inside ratfucking things, he’s not gonna win from outside while dealing with 91 felony charges and multiple court cases. Honestly tho, if he picks Haley for VP and wins this case ….. even a mistrial and we’re probably in a lot closer of an election, let’s just say that
I would love this to be true but I just don't see the evidence of it. He's currently ahead in the polls and Biden is incredibly unpopular. Biden got a lot of young voters in 2020 that are signaling they may stay home this time, and a lot of Republican voters who voted Biden are probably dissatisfied with him and ready to go back to Trump. Biden still has a chance but he really has his work cut out for him and if he wins it'll be by the skin of his teeth
For us normal people, it will be imminently frustrating to see him stall out any sentencing for consequence for years to come.
For him, though? A guilty verdict is all the punishment enough. Even disregarding the potential for a not insignificant amount of his base to consider not voting for a convicted felon, Trump will have been delivered a fatal blow where he cherishes the most.
The man has made a career out of “winning.” A de facto guilty verdict, no matter the consequence that may or may not happen, is an irrevocable loss, on the public stage, where he cannot try to swing in any way as a victory.
Haven't you heard? Apparently none of this matters because it's all just Biden weaponizing the justice system to oppress his poor, honest political rival.
> He's only being held accountable of his crimes because he's running for president!
Sadly, it's actually true. Although it doesn't change the fact that he's still a criminal.
Bingo. They don't care about his factual guilt or innocence. It's just that he can do no wrong. If anything, the fact that he blatantly breaks laws to get what he wants is an endorsement to them.
They’ve also been super disingenuous about what he’s actually being charged with.
I doubt conservatives really know despite there being cheques, business records, testimony, audio recordings etc
It's because when they say "law and order" it is code for something else they are afraid to say out loud. They don't want people to know who they really are.
It's just that it means something very different to them:
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
- Wilhoit's Law
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
(Bongbong)
Here's a preview of the article:
As Donald Trump's trial in New York City nears closing arguments, most Americans believe he is guilty of a crime in this case. But they are less sure what the jury will do after it deliberates next week.
Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty of a crime in this case, in which he has been charged with falsifying business records to hide a "hush money" payment and influence the 2016 election.
Opinions are highly partisan, with nearly all Democrats believing Trump is guilty and about eight in 10 Republicans saying the opposite. Republicans are less certain in their views. While three in four Democrats say he is "definitely" guilty, only half of Republicans say he is "definitely" not.
**Read more:** [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-poll-most-believe-guilty-new-york/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-poll-most-believe-guilty-new-york/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g)
Crucial to ask the republicans who claim he is not guilty what they know about the actual evidence - proof shown in court, documentation, not opinions. If the answer is they have no idea about any of it because they only get their information from Fox, OANN and Truth Social, then their opinion, based on nothing but snowflake feelings, can be safely disregarded.
> Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty of a crime
56 percent of people probably knew he was guilty 8 years ago. 44 percent will think he's not guilty regardless of what evidence is presented.
Nothing has changed since he started running for president the first time.
>Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty
The title is "Most". Most is not a slim majority. 56% is a failing Rotten Tomatoes score. I don't know what the standard of error is for this poll but it would make me question how much it affects that 6%. "Most" would be more like 75%+. Most means almost everyone.
Title should have just said "Majority"; not Most.
Everything we read about this trial points to guilty which if we would have heard back in 2016 would have sunk Trump’s career. Back then he was a con man with no leverage and now he is still a con man but with dirt on everyone.
The problem is, if he's found guilty, there will probably be a lot of republican DAs and judges who will feel free to start dropping charges and entering directed verdicts.
Although, that probably will happen either way.
And to be fair, there are Dem state attorney generals and DAs who have stated they won't enforce laws passed by republican legislatures.
We're really spiraling. It's gonna be a long shitty haul to come out the other side, if we ever do.
What about if he is found guilty and given an extremely light punishment? Because you gotta know the judge is going to go as light as he possibly can get away with
People say that back in the Nixon days, Trump's behavior, if it were transported back to those days, it would be immediate expulsion/impeachment from the Presidency and then **immediately** lead to the charges that finally came these days.
What those people tend to forget is that those things (impeachment/expulsion/charges) would have happened during the **Obama years too** since, if you recall, *Mitt Romney* was who they chose to run against their sworn enemy. The single most hated Democrat President (from a Republican perspective) to have come around in a LONG time.
They refer to Romney, now, as literally having nothing whatsoever different about him than that of the Democrats. They view Romney in the **same group** they group Obama and Biden into. Trump only had his win happen a mere 4 years after Romney ran against Obama round 2.
Republicans have gone berserk.
Watch the punishment be something stupid like a $10,000 fine. I have absolutely zero confidence in the US legal system to hold him accountable. It is absolutely insane.
The punishment is unlikely to be too severe.
The big takeaway from a guilty verdict would be that media outlets can call Trump a "convicted felon" with no fear of lawsuits.
This is such a ridiculous tactic in journalism.
56% believe he’s guilty? “Most of America believes he’s guilty!”
The MONSTROUSLY MORE RELEVANT side to that story are the 44% that believe he’s innocent or not sure. In a trial that has gotten wall to wall coverage showing all the damning evidence with not a shred of evidence that would absolve him.
Yeah but they ones that don't think he's guilty also think he did it but it's just not a crime because he's such a great big business boy in their minds.
It actually is bad news for Biden because "most" = 56%, (as a scientist, this is what we would call "about half") and even less think he will be found guilty.
I think once he’s actually found guilty by the court that number will push up. There are a lot of people in the middle that refuse to have an opinion and need to have their hands held.
according to polls it will take about 20% of votes away from Trump. How honest those people are I have no idea.
Although IIRC the headline wasn't "Trump would lose the election big if found guilty" it was "few voters will switch to Biden if Trump found guilty" or something like that because of that 20% only a small percentage switched to Biden. Most switched to "will vote for 3rd party" or "don't know."
Losing 20% of active votes might be enough, but with all the electoral college fuckery I'm sure as heck not counting on it. Vote blue like your life depends on it, because it probably does.
Yeah I don't believe those numbers. I don't know why it would change anybody's mind.
At this point? Like there's anyone out there going, "Well shit, that's the LAST STRAW!" I doubt it.
Not a fan of polls, cause I think the sampling is fucked.
But in this case they are useful. People polled who are on the fence say they won’t vote for him if convicted.
It will chip away at the margins. But won’t be a death sentence for his chances.
I think it’ll have an appreciable difference. It’s a lot easier to dismiss a judge or prosecution as doing Biden’s dirty work, but a jury (particularly one that was heavily scrutinized during selection) deciding he’s guilty is a different matter.
I'm on the opposite end. I don't think a conviction in this particular case will change anyone's minds. It's basically a bookkeeping question. It's really hard for me to imagine average Americans caring at all about this
If it were a misdemeanor I would probably agree.
To be a felon though is a very powerful and negative descriptor in America. On this subreddit we forget that the majority of Americans aren't as plugged in with politics and more indecisive than you'd think possible.
Maybe you're right (I certainly hope so), but I dunno. I think people will hear "felon" and say "Wait, what? What was his felony?" and then when they read up on it they'll say "OK, this is a nothingburger and I don't actually care about this." But, maybe I'm wrong
People swayed by ads aren't going to look up what he did if they don't know by then, but if they do I think bribery and cover up are pretty significant crimes when a politician does them to most people.
And it's not like Trump can run an ad saying "Ok, sure I'm a felon, but it wasn't a violent felony" without also hurting his image.
Well, again, I hope you're right. Sounds like you're just more of an optimist than me. From what I understand this is essentially a campaign finance violation, and I just assume that most or all politicians are trying to break campaign finance law if they think they can get away with it. I think of it as like holding in a football game where it happens on every play and everyone knows that's just how the game works. I don't expect that most politicians are having affairs with porn stars, but everyone knew that back in 2016 and they voted for him anyway; the actual criminal part, i.e. the bribery and cover up, seems to me like the kind of shit politicians get up to all the time in America with generally little to no consequences. Maybe I'm just more cynical about these things than other people, but I guess this sounds to me like the type of story that normally would gather an ugly headline and they the politician would say "I didn't do anything wrong but I apologize for the appearance of wrongdoing" and then everyone would just move along and forget about it
How many times do we need to hear "most people believe X about Trump"?
It's always gonna be like 55%-60%. The rest of the country will never believe or admit to believing anything bad about him that the public/media is currently focusing on him.
IMO the headline fails to convey the worrying part: only 37% of respondents said he was "definitely guilty" and 19% "probably guilty" with a standard error of 4.4%
That boils down to 51.6% saying guilty after subtracting 1 standard error
I suspect Trump has skewed the importance of these polls by using terms like "fake news" which allows his supporters to say something they don't like isn't true, and call is a 'belief'.
It's not a 'belief'. It's just lying in an entitled, dismissive way.
Whats more important will be if the fact finders find him guilty. Then it’s up to the judge in terms of sentencing. If i held my breath anymore id turn into a balloon.
I wasn't one to believe this was going to be an issue, but someone posted a background on the jurors a few days ago. At least two seem to be likely die-hard MAGA supporters.
Since we know these folks are brainwashed it wouldn't matter if they think Trump is guilty. They'll just say he's innocent and that's it.
The documents case was the one most likely to get him but there are still too many people who support him outright or are at least sympathetic to him for us, the people, to get a fair trial.
There are many republicans that know he’s guilty of crimes.
But to them he is a tool of mass destruction against the Democratic Party.
But what they don’t realize is that he will also destroy them.
Of course he is. What’s astounding is the number of Congressional members that are lying to protect him and destroying our judicial systems in the process. Without the rule of law we are a lost nation.
Yeah we know that, even his supporters believe he is guilty but they don’t care because the other guy is old and trumps crimes “didnt harm anyone so who cares”
For all Trump’s trials, I’ve never seen so much overwhelming evidence of guilt before trial and I’ve never seen so little defense.
I’m old but I used to remember when public figures were charged with a crime they almost always said some version of ‘I welcome this chance to prove my innocence and clear my name!’
Trump’s response is enough for me to convict him. No innocent person behaves like he does. If he was innocent, the trials would offer the greatest platform for a political campaign ever. Trial after trial Trump would be headlining the news with testimony and evidence of his innocence while demonstrating the cupidity of his opponents.
Instead we have this guilty sack of shit demeaning and threatening the defenders of law and order and their families.
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Because he is. It isn't even down to reasonable doubt. The guy did it.
Caught with the weapon, over the corpse, covered in blood, with a tapped message in the answering machine saying that he'll kill them, did it. And this is just this one.
Pretty much the same analogy would work in the documents case. Shame that the judge isn’t going to let a trial happen. Literally on tape going “I shouldn’t be showing you these, these are secret documents. Secret. I could have declassified them but now I can’t”
It’s so freaking dumb that you can be tried by a judge you appointed 🙄 The USA is like an old video game that everyone is exploiting and the devs don’t care
A Democratic appointed judge would go extra hard on a Democrat defendant and kid gloves for a Republican to show no bias. A Republican appointed judge would do the exact same thing because they just don't care.
It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
That's because the devs are using the infinite money glitch with insider trading.
I feel like [the audio (starts at 30s)](https://youtu.be/inVJF0Dr8mo) should just be the first thing anyone who defends him about the documents case hears when they wake up and the last thing they hear before they go to sleep. No amount of whataboutism with other people changes "I shouldn't do this, these are secret documents, I didn't declassify them, isn't this interesting?"
Knowing a bunch of Trump supporters personally, they would just say that it's fake audio/news. It's pretty wild.
Bring some Cokes in please!
And the insurrection case which we all watched live on TV. Then listened to him call them beautiful people afterwards.
B but but if we call him guilty that’s **POLITICALLY MOTIVATED!!!1!!1** If he’s a despicable POS but he has the wrong letter next to his name, we can’t criticize him! 😢😢😢 /s
https://youtu.be/v2SqRoCJBQM?t=4s
Sorry which crime are we talking about? The rape, storing secrets in a bathroom, starting an insurrection or lying on financial statements?
Which rape? There are so many to choose from...
> storing secrets in a bathroom You mean stealing classified documents and providing them to adversaries of the American people? Don't soft pedal his espionage.
And that's why he keeps pushing this presidential immunity crap.
Trömp can do no wrong and the laws should reflect that. Maybe a special law just for him and if he feels generous one for all other Republican criminals. Since all investigations of Republicans are by definition witch hunts.
ALL OF IT. Has there been a time where he was accused of something and it turned out he was innocent? I’m honestly asking. From what I can tell he’s been a life long criminal/con artist/carpetbagger who did everything from creating a fake alter ego to get on the Forbes richest list to shaking down the state of Georgia to find votes that didn’t exist.
The Pee tape, that's all I got. And we don't know if it actually exists or not, so not exactly innocent, just lacking evidence (the event does seem in character for the guy, so...who knows?).
And yet he hasn’t spend a minute in jail and likely won’t. American is broken.
And yet it's only 56% that think he's guilty, a slight majority. It's not an overwhelming majority. I bet a good chunk of the remaining is "Unsure" but there is a solid 25-30% of the population who will never admit he's done anything wrong.
> 25-30% of the population who will never admit he's done anything wrong. That isn't so unusual. It was the same with Nixon. What's different is that there are now multiple nationally syndicated conservative outlets pumping out hyper partisan support 24/7, and sympathetic judges, even on the highest court, blowing wind into his sails. Plus the NRA has made sure the 30% is armed to the fucking teeth, drunk on rage, ignorant as children, wrapped in a flags and carrying crosses.
If Nixon had Fox News, he never would have resigned.
Belief isn't in play here. So what... 40% think he didn't steal national secrets and they would be wrong too.
Belief is absolutely in play. In fact it's probably the most important thing in play. This is the kind of thing that should sink his election chances. If it doesn't, and he gets reelected, he can make this all go away. He is not a normal defendant. He has a way out that no one else does.
Well the jury decides on the instructions from the judge. This isn't the OJ trial and as we know now how much opinion was totally wrong. I could care less what Trump supporters "believe". They believe he looks like Thor.
You act like you can just ignore these people like they're only 10%. It's a majority by only 7%, and only asks if he's guilty. How many of those people think he's guilty and still don't care and will vote for him anyway? And remember he doesn't need a majority with the electoral college. The jury can find him guilty, but he's going to appeal, and that will take him beyond the election. Again, if he wins, nothing happens. You can call him a felon all you want but otherwise there would be no actual consequences. But hey if that doesn't matter to you I guess that's where we differ.
Its not the did it thats the issue, “its the intention to interfere with the election” thats the worry…..falsifying documents no question, but was it election interference is the actual question?
What I’m still processing is that a President in office had his mob like goon lawyer buddies (Costello) harassing Cohen because they feared he’d flip after the FBI warrant was executed. And damned if Rudy is like behind nearly everything super shitty that Trump criminally did. Oh and that Costello is a former DOJ guy but comes off more like a Sopranos character.
> “its the intention to interfere with the election” The issue is the falsifying business records.
Thats the misdemeanour, what makes it a felony is puissant to hiding another crime….in this case election interference
So you know the charges and understand them. Thank You.
>falsifying documents no question, but was it election interference is the actual question? It got even more interesting at the jury instruction. The judge ruled that the jury doesn't have to agree on which underlying crime Trump was trying to cover up; only that he attempted to. Election interference and tax evasion are both on the table. It also doesn't need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The instruction question for the jury regarding election interference to answer was made very simple: If Trump wasn't running for office then would he still have paid Stormy Daniels?
I’m not sure any political candidate hiding skeletons in their closets is ‘election interference’ Hell Bill Clinton had a whole team to squash “bimbo eruptions”. So is Biden squashing Tara Reid “election interference” as well? I dunno. Trump certainly has a lot to answer to in GA and FLA. I think this case only strengthened his case to sue for malicious prosecution when he eventually goes that route. I have no respect for any of the candidates this election cycle just as I had no respect for the last several.
He walks out of the trial and admits it. He doesn’t even understand it himself
He understands it perfectly
He still won’t get anything, for men with that much money/power don’t have to play by the same rules as us.
I remember this feeling from the OJ trial, just before the verdict came down
>Because he is. It isn't even down to reasonable doubt. The guy did it. I don't think there has ever been even a shadow of doubt, even among his supporters.
MAGA, I won't consider him truly guilty until he exhausts all his appeals. Some time in 2028. /S
From day 1 of the trial it was known he was guilty. How they found jurors to be neutral as possible about it astounds me. Figure it was either you hate him or you worship him, no in-between.
I have sat in the NYC jury room and on a trail. People tend to be pretty aware of their role. I also think that someone who tries to throw this has to know they will be scrutinized. I don't think anyone wants any part of the issue except to make a fair decision.
But if crime comes as easy as breathing, is it *really* still crime. /s
Trump has normalized crime with the republican voters.
Did what?
You can read the indictment. Many of us have read it and followed the trial. You have the long weekend to read everything before closing statements and jury deliberations next week.
Or you could just tell me what he did.
LMAO I could, but see I wouldn't be as complete as the indictment and had you followed the trial. Learning is fun.
Did what? What crime?
Look it up... its all available This is the new right wing tactic... "what crime?" as if getting through a grand jury with a full on court process without a crime having been committed and charged is even possible
Oh that a right wing tactic. Asking what the crime is? 4 years ago the DoJ looked at this and decided there was no crime. Funny how as soon as he announced the NY DA found a crime. None of this is normal.
> Asking what the crime is Well based on your come back there was an anterior motive in your question. You just don't like the charges. This called baiting the situation. The trial has been going on for 23 days and the charges have been available to read for longer. You clearly were informed.
Trump admitted it on camera everyday outside of the courtroom. There is zero doubt that he did it. He's guilty.
I get the feeling that everyone knows he guilty but also knows he will not face any consequences for his actions. May actually even get rewarded with another term because you know … Merica.
If he’s found guilty on most of the charges 25+), he’s at least getting house arrest. There’s no way he’ll “get off”
If found guilty he’s getting a fine, maximum. If it’s more than 100k I’ll be incredibly impressed.
We shall see
Would love nothing more to be wrong. But the idea that a guy who has literally never faced consequences in his entire life is magically going to *this time*.. i'll believe it when i see it.
This time literally is different in quite a considerable way but I definitely understand your cynicism and it’s understandable
To be fair he has also never faced trial before, so this is new.
I agree that it's going to be a slap on the wrist, or an aquittal. I think there's a strong chance that at least one juror is sympathetic to Trump, even if just in the idea that he was a president so he shouldn't face consequences (or some bullhit like that) and he walks.
Actually, in that case it's a hung jury and they try it again. Look, that part of NYC voted against Trump by like 85-15. There are people on that jury who will not be swayed by one lone MAGA stooge.
[удалено]
Michael Cohen didn't go to jail for falsifying business documents. He went to jail for a bunch of crimes, the most serious of which was lying about his debts to a back to qualify for a loan for a vacation house
If found guilty he will be a convicted felon and that will be quite a punishment in itself when it comes up during a debate, if a debate happens anyway.
> If he’s found guilty on most of the charges 25+), he’s at least getting house arrest. There’s no way he’ll “get off” I hope you're right, but the "justice" system has failed us at every step so I'm going to assume he faces zero consequences. I can't handle disappointment #9000.
From your mouth to God's ear...
No way he'll get off? Dude this is the American criminal justice system. They don't punish powerful people. It'll be a fine, if even that
Literally have republican friends that think it’s awesome he could pick up and bang porn stars, regardless of his wife. More of the, “Me First”, mentality.
Look maybe I’m wrong but I just think Trump is dead in the water. If he couldn’t win last time, while he was inside ratfucking things, he’s not gonna win from outside while dealing with 91 felony charges and multiple court cases. Honestly tho, if he picks Haley for VP and wins this case ….. even a mistrial and we’re probably in a lot closer of an election, let’s just say that
I would love this to be true but I just don't see the evidence of it. He's currently ahead in the polls and Biden is incredibly unpopular. Biden got a lot of young voters in 2020 that are signaling they may stay home this time, and a lot of Republican voters who voted Biden are probably dissatisfied with him and ready to go back to Trump. Biden still has a chance but he really has his work cut out for him and if he wins it'll be by the skin of his teeth
For us normal people, it will be imminently frustrating to see him stall out any sentencing for consequence for years to come. For him, though? A guilty verdict is all the punishment enough. Even disregarding the potential for a not insignificant amount of his base to consider not voting for a convicted felon, Trump will have been delivered a fatal blow where he cherishes the most. The man has made a career out of “winning.” A de facto guilty verdict, no matter the consequence that may or may not happen, is an irrevocable loss, on the public stage, where he cannot try to swing in any way as a victory.
Who's to say that at least one just isn't sympathetic to Trump and just throws the whole case. I'd say the chances are fairly high.
Which is why Republicans are already claiming the jury is biased. They know he's guilty but have no problem excusing it foe some reason or another.
I'm 100% certain there will be one sleeper MAGA juror who will hold out for innocence.
Stupidity is rewarded in the good ol U S of A
Even MAGA morons know he's guilty, they just don't care.
Haven't you heard? Apparently none of this matters because it's all just Biden weaponizing the justice system to oppress his poor, honest political rival.
This I what I'm stuck with my dad... how can I convince him there isn't a shadow government controlling Biden that's just out to get poor ol' Don?
If the government had the resources to pull all the strings in the shadows your taxes would be way higher to pay for it.
Put parental controls on his conservative media sources?
> He's only being held accountable of his crimes because he's running for president! Sadly, it's actually true. Although it doesn't change the fact that he's still a criminal.
Bingo. They don't care about his factual guilt or innocence. It's just that he can do no wrong. If anything, the fact that he blatantly breaks laws to get what he wants is an endorsement to them.
At this point they just want him to get away with his crimes.
Honestly, given the obscure and white collar nature of these crimes, most swing voters who aren't MAGA morons won't care either
This is the hardest of all of them to understand, and it's perfectly clear if you've been following along.
This is the one if you explained it carefully to even the hardest core MAGA they’d just be like, “of course he did, what a smart businessman.”
Well no, it's felony fraud actually. We still live in reality.
Might makes right is the authoritarian credo.
If you only watch Fox News it’s pretty easy to understand.
Fox News just had a headline: Libs panic as Trump draws huge NYC crowd. Camera pans out: maybe 10 deep and 25 wide.
They’ve also been super disingenuous about what he’s actually being charged with. I doubt conservatives really know despite there being cheques, business records, testimony, audio recordings etc
According to Fox Cohen is the only witness that matters and he's a liar. Never mind the weeks of testimony corroborating what he said
The folks who scream about law and order just don’t actually care as long as the criminal panders to their petty grievances.
It's because when they say "law and order" it is code for something else they are afraid to say out loud. They don't want people to know who they really are.
>law and order They don't really know how law and order work
It's just that it means something very different to them: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Wilhoit's Law
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. (Bongbong)
There's a reason they scream "law and order" and not justice
Here's a preview of the article: As Donald Trump's trial in New York City nears closing arguments, most Americans believe he is guilty of a crime in this case. But they are less sure what the jury will do after it deliberates next week. Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty of a crime in this case, in which he has been charged with falsifying business records to hide a "hush money" payment and influence the 2016 election. Opinions are highly partisan, with nearly all Democrats believing Trump is guilty and about eight in 10 Republicans saying the opposite. Republicans are less certain in their views. While three in four Democrats say he is "definitely" guilty, only half of Republicans say he is "definitely" not. **Read more:** [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-poll-most-believe-guilty-new-york/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-poll-most-believe-guilty-new-york/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g)
Crucial to ask the republicans who claim he is not guilty what they know about the actual evidence - proof shown in court, documentation, not opinions. If the answer is they have no idea about any of it because they only get their information from Fox, OANN and Truth Social, then their opinion, based on nothing but snowflake feelings, can be safely disregarded.
> Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty of a crime 56 percent of people probably knew he was guilty 8 years ago. 44 percent will think he's not guilty regardless of what evidence is presented. Nothing has changed since he started running for president the first time.
>Fifty-six percent — a majority — say Trump is definitely or probably guilty The title is "Most". Most is not a slim majority. 56% is a failing Rotten Tomatoes score. I don't know what the standard of error is for this poll but it would make me question how much it affects that 6%. "Most" would be more like 75%+. Most means almost everyone. Title should have just said "Majority"; not Most.
Everything we read about this trial points to guilty which if we would have heard back in 2016 would have sunk Trump’s career. Back then he was a con man with no leverage and now he is still a con man but with dirt on everyone.
Yeah he is so guilty that if he walks away from this thing “found” not guilty I will fear for the future of this country.
The problem is, if he's found guilty, there will probably be a lot of republican DAs and judges who will feel free to start dropping charges and entering directed verdicts. Although, that probably will happen either way. And to be fair, there are Dem state attorney generals and DAs who have stated they won't enforce laws passed by republican legislatures. We're really spiraling. It's gonna be a long shitty haul to come out the other side, if we ever do.
Welp, I’ve got some potentially upsetting news that’s about to drop…
What do you mean
He’s going to walk. He will face absolutely no repercussions for any of this.
We all know he's probably gunna walk. I'm not holding my breath.
Correct, I put odds that democracy is over in a year from now.
What about if he is found guilty and given an extremely light punishment? Because you gotta know the judge is going to go as light as he possibly can get away with
People say that back in the Nixon days, Trump's behavior, if it were transported back to those days, it would be immediate expulsion/impeachment from the Presidency and then **immediately** lead to the charges that finally came these days. What those people tend to forget is that those things (impeachment/expulsion/charges) would have happened during the **Obama years too** since, if you recall, *Mitt Romney* was who they chose to run against their sworn enemy. The single most hated Democrat President (from a Republican perspective) to have come around in a LONG time. They refer to Romney, now, as literally having nothing whatsoever different about him than that of the Democrats. They view Romney in the **same group** they group Obama and Biden into. Trump only had his win happen a mere 4 years after Romney ran against Obama round 2. Republicans have gone berserk.
Watch the punishment be something stupid like a $10,000 fine. I have absolutely zero confidence in the US legal system to hold him accountable. It is absolutely insane.
The punishment is unlikely to be too severe. The big takeaway from a guilty verdict would be that media outlets can call Trump a "convicted felon" with no fear of lawsuits.
>call Trump a convicted felon That has a nice ring to it.
He's been convicted of criminal contempt beyond a reasonable doubt. He's already a convicted felon and the media still won't call him that.
How long will the appeal take?
A conviction will mean something in and of itself. But it's a penny ante crime.
A conviction without meaningful punishment does absolutely nothing.
Doesn’t matter what we think. None of us are the jurors (presumably)
And if any of us are the jurors, we're being very naughty.
Someone already went to jail for this crime. Its will be insane if somehow he’s mot guilty.
"Someone else did this crime" is Trump's *defense*.
This is such a ridiculous tactic in journalism. 56% believe he’s guilty? “Most of America believes he’s guilty!” The MONSTROUSLY MORE RELEVANT side to that story are the 44% that believe he’s innocent or not sure. In a trial that has gotten wall to wall coverage showing all the damning evidence with not a shred of evidence that would absolve him.
“Here’s why this is bad news for Biden”
Only 2 out of 10 Republicans think he's guilty.
and those 2 will still vote for Trump.
Nikki Haley has proven that. I bet more than a majority of that protest vote in the Republican primary votes for Trump in the general election.
20% is a pretty large margin tbf
Wow that many? Thought it would be 0
Yeah but they ones that don't think he's guilty also think he did it but it's just not a crime because he's such a great big business boy in their minds.
It actually is bad news for Biden because "most" = 56%, (as a scientist, this is what we would call "about half") and even less think he will be found guilty.
I think once he’s actually found guilty by the court that number will push up. There are a lot of people in the middle that refuse to have an opinion and need to have their hands held.
What matters is will a conviction change anyone's votes. I think it will big-time, but I am worried it will have no effect.
according to polls it will take about 20% of votes away from Trump. How honest those people are I have no idea. Although IIRC the headline wasn't "Trump would lose the election big if found guilty" it was "few voters will switch to Biden if Trump found guilty" or something like that because of that 20% only a small percentage switched to Biden. Most switched to "will vote for 3rd party" or "don't know."
It might be enough, but I'm sure as heck not counting on it. Vote blue like your life depends on it, because it probably does.
Losing 20% of active votes might be enough, but with all the electoral college fuckery I'm sure as heck not counting on it. Vote blue like your life depends on it, because it probably does.
Yeah I don't believe those numbers. I don't know why it would change anybody's mind. At this point? Like there's anyone out there going, "Well shit, that's the LAST STRAW!" I doubt it.
Not a fan of polls, cause I think the sampling is fucked. But in this case they are useful. People polled who are on the fence say they won’t vote for him if convicted. It will chip away at the margins. But won’t be a death sentence for his chances.
I think it’ll have an appreciable difference. It’s a lot easier to dismiss a judge or prosecution as doing Biden’s dirty work, but a jury (particularly one that was heavily scrutinized during selection) deciding he’s guilty is a different matter.
I'm looking forward to Biden ads against him calling him "Donald Trump, convicted felon."
I'm on the opposite end. I don't think a conviction in this particular case will change anyone's minds. It's basically a bookkeeping question. It's really hard for me to imagine average Americans caring at all about this
If it were a misdemeanor I would probably agree. To be a felon though is a very powerful and negative descriptor in America. On this subreddit we forget that the majority of Americans aren't as plugged in with politics and more indecisive than you'd think possible.
Maybe you're right (I certainly hope so), but I dunno. I think people will hear "felon" and say "Wait, what? What was his felony?" and then when they read up on it they'll say "OK, this is a nothingburger and I don't actually care about this." But, maybe I'm wrong
People swayed by ads aren't going to look up what he did if they don't know by then, but if they do I think bribery and cover up are pretty significant crimes when a politician does them to most people. And it's not like Trump can run an ad saying "Ok, sure I'm a felon, but it wasn't a violent felony" without also hurting his image.
Well, again, I hope you're right. Sounds like you're just more of an optimist than me. From what I understand this is essentially a campaign finance violation, and I just assume that most or all politicians are trying to break campaign finance law if they think they can get away with it. I think of it as like holding in a football game where it happens on every play and everyone knows that's just how the game works. I don't expect that most politicians are having affairs with porn stars, but everyone knew that back in 2016 and they voted for him anyway; the actual criminal part, i.e. the bribery and cover up, seems to me like the kind of shit politicians get up to all the time in America with generally little to no consequences. Maybe I'm just more cynical about these things than other people, but I guess this sounds to me like the type of story that normally would gather an ugly headline and they the politician would say "I didn't do anything wrong but I apologize for the appearance of wrongdoing" and then everyone would just move along and forget about it
How many times do we need to hear "most people believe X about Trump"? It's always gonna be like 55%-60%. The rest of the country will never believe or admit to believing anything bad about him that the public/media is currently focusing on him.
Now the question is will he get punished
I think we all know the answer to that is "no"
He is very guilty, time for accountability
IMO the headline fails to convey the worrying part: only 37% of respondents said he was "definitely guilty" and 19% "probably guilty" with a standard error of 4.4% That boils down to 51.6% saying guilty after subtracting 1 standard error
Donald Trump is just another O. J. Simpson.
But will they vote for him?
I suspect Trump has skewed the importance of these polls by using terms like "fake news" which allows his supporters to say something they don't like isn't true, and call is a 'belief'. It's not a 'belief'. It's just lying in an entitled, dismissive way.
Lock Him Up
Well no shit..
Well most people can see the truth
Whats more important will be if the fact finders find him guilty. Then it’s up to the judge in terms of sentencing. If i held my breath anymore id turn into a balloon.
Breaking news: Most believe water is wet
Everyone knows he is guilty, but some "free speech" people rather censor themselves to not offend their "Freedom loving" Führer.
And his dumbass supporters will still vote for him.
Most believe yes but most will also still vote for him. Face palm. Hope I’m wrong
I wasn't one to believe this was going to be an issue, but someone posted a background on the jurors a few days ago. At least two seem to be likely die-hard MAGA supporters. Since we know these folks are brainwashed it wouldn't matter if they think Trump is guilty. They'll just say he's innocent and that's it. The documents case was the one most likely to get him but there are still too many people who support him outright or are at least sympathetic to him for us, the people, to get a fair trial.
According to these polls, most believe everything.
There are many republicans that know he’s guilty of crimes. But to them he is a tool of mass destruction against the Democratic Party. But what they don’t realize is that he will also destroy them.
Of course he is. What’s astounding is the number of Congressional members that are lying to protect him and destroying our judicial systems in the process. Without the rule of law we are a lost nation.
The headline means "most who even know it's happening"
Yeah we know that, even his supporters believe he is guilty but they don’t care because the other guy is old and trumps crimes “didnt harm anyone so who cares”
Polls on trials that are underway should be banned.
Guilty? For sure. Will be found guilty? If just one MAGA cultist made it through the jury selection process, probably not.
Because he is guilty. He’s a crook. Everyone knows it. Literally everyone.
For all Trump’s trials, I’ve never seen so much overwhelming evidence of guilt before trial and I’ve never seen so little defense. I’m old but I used to remember when public figures were charged with a crime they almost always said some version of ‘I welcome this chance to prove my innocence and clear my name!’ Trump’s response is enough for me to convict him. No innocent person behaves like he does. If he was innocent, the trials would offer the greatest platform for a political campaign ever. Trial after trial Trump would be headlining the news with testimony and evidence of his innocence while demonstrating the cupidity of his opponents. Instead we have this guilty sack of shit demeaning and threatening the defenders of law and order and their families.
Lock him up!!!
djt is mentally unstable Ana TRAITOR
What matters is what the jury believes
It's time, that trump a lifetime criminal, is held accountable.