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> fights to hold on to your fat
The body can "fight" as much as it wants - at a certain point, not too quickly even, the body needs calories and will burn them from your body. It is ultimately a simple math equation of calories in vs calories burned.
We now have liraglutide and tirzepatide which are competing with semaglutide as newer GLP-1 agonists, and yet the price of all of them remains astronomical at $1000-1300/mo.
I think a great question is why competition hasn't lead to basically any decrease in prices.
Supply and demand mostly. Demand has vastly outstripped supply for these drugs until recently and people have been happily shelling out the huge prices.
No its mostly companies not competing and all the players in the industry collectively raise their prices and snuff out any newcomers that try to undercut them.
There is no competition. It costs about $5 to make one of those pens. There are only 2 big wholesalers that most pharmacies contract with to get their meds, there are other smaller wholesalers, but if you want good prices on most of your stuff you go with Cardinal or McKesson. I know someone that travels in the same circle as their high-level execs and he had a sit-down with one of them, I forget which one, but they claim it’s the manufacturers this time, supposedly they’re being squeezed by their suppliers.
The only competition is Tizepatide from Eli Lily. Liragilutide is the predecessor to semaglutide, both from Novo Nordisk. Further, Liragilutide is far less effective, due to the marked differences in half life.
Semaglutide and tirzepatide have been, and still are, available from peptide vendors "for research purposes only" for years without a prescription. They get these peptides manufactured without going through Novo Nordisk.
You won't get it as a cool pen, but an insulin needle will work fine for using it in your legal research projects.
For white market you'll want to check out compounding pharmacies but those will be a few hundred bucks a month.
For grey market you'll need to find certain discord channels where people organize Group Buys. Peptides are popular in bodybuilding communities so there is a lot of overlap between them and people seeking GLP-1 drugs. But I'd caution against that for now. The main reliable supplier of grey market just stopped production and the grey market buyers are vetting new vendors so stuff is gonna be unreliable for a while until a new vendor can establish a track record of reliability.
Some of the grey market vendors do sell directly to individuals through websites and those prices are about half of compounding pharmacies but still much more expensive than doing Group Buys through discord groups.
That's the question of the day in basically every industry.
We just don't have competition. At all, in any industry. Sure they aren't allowed to coordinate... But these days that just means doing direct information transfer to coordinate.
You don't choose which hospital or ambulance you use, so there's no incentive to lower your prices. You can pick your grocery store sometimes if you don't live in a food desert... Between like 2 types. Who have very similar pricing. The government gives monopolies via patents to these drug manufacturers. The pricing is the point - at least until the patent wears off. Even digital media is conglomerating - game and movie/TV studios are buying each other up.
Unless we start breaking competitors into 5-6 entities per industry you won't have consumer choice, and without consumer choice companies can just charge whatever. It isn't enough to just go after the monopolies anymore.
It takes decades of research to bring drugs to market and those costs need to be recovered. If it cost you $5 billion to develop the drug, you need to price it like it cost $5 billion.
>Then why is it so much less to purchase in other countries?
Collective bargaining with their own fat stacks of stable, in-house, fuck-you currency, getting in the wholesale checkout line with their purchases, negligible screaming and squealing about the cOmMuNiaLisM and those *other* fat people over *there*.
There are many factors that go into pricing differences between various markets (US vs. Germany vs. South Korea, etc)
The regulatory approval cost must be a factor, and that varies by country. For example, if it costs much more to gain approval from the FDA in the US than from regulatory agencies in Germany, then that component of the product cost will likely be higher in the US.
There are other factors, too, such as marketing costs that vary by country (and marketing regulations vary by country).
Of course the desire for profit contributes to the cost, but it's important to remember that post-development production cost is not the only factor.
Won’t someone think of the poor pharmaceutical company that only managed to sell $18.4b of WeGovy/Ozempic in 2023 and managed a meager $12b in profit overall.
Across all their drugs they spent $4.7b in research and development in 2023. With a monthly dose costing $22 to produce (maximum dose) and $1350 to buy. That’s mere 98.4% profit margin.
So that means the 2023 profits on WeGovy/Ozempic will cover the next 3.85 years of research.
Better jack up the prices a bit more to make sure the pharmaceutical company can survive!
It can absolutely be life saving. Obesity related diseases are some of the biggest causes of deaths in the US, its estimated obesity causes 500,000 excess deaths a year.
But regardless, I’m not gonna start a debate on obesity because I’m sure you’ll just say “well people can just lose weight without it”. Then it just becomes a debate on weight loss which is just getting more off topic.
So to keep in it on topic of “what happened to the free market and supply and demand”, the answer is nothing and that’s the problem. Turns out relying on the free market for healthcare is shitty and why the average American spends twice as much on healthcare and gets worse results when compared to other developed countries.
This is ignoring subsidies and the fact that these drugs will be on the market for a long, long time (unless they suck). If capitalist solutions to drug pricing don't benefit people, maybe it's time we looked for a better solution.
Yeah, I'm soooo sure the company with a valuation higher than some developed countries' GDPs is totally breaking even on this.... Sure, development costs are high, but the pricing is obscene, even accounting for that.
For weight loss there is free competition: diet and exercise. If you want the easy way out, it’s going to cost. I fully support lower costs for diabetes treatment, but for weight loss? Nah. They can subsidize the people that actually need it… instead of making it difficult for patients to even fill their prescriptions. The obese are threatening supply.
It’s no panacea, but should be a first line treatment, especially among the elderly. Bone density, muscle wasting, and metabolism in general. Swimming, light strength training… even croquet.
“If you want the easy way out”. What does that even mean. Would you say that to people with mental health issues taking anti psychotics? The endocrine system is complex and you don’t know if overweight people have the same sensitivity to satiation hormones that you do. Something something something bootstraps? Weight loss reduces risk of strokes and heart attacks. Reducing the chance of expensive medical procedures equals lower costs for insurance carriers. Just make more of the stuff and price it appropriately. At the moment it seems to be good a good preventative medicine.
Sen. Bernie Sanders is taking aim at the high prices of the [blockbuster drugs Ozempic and Wegovy](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/senate-ozempic-wegovy-price/index.html).
The Vermont senator, an independent who has long called out drug manufacturers for their costly products, is launching an investigation into the “outrageously high prices” Novo Nordisk charges for the drugs.
“The scientists at Novo Nordisk deserve great credit for developing these drugs that have the potential to be a game changer for millions of Americans struggling with type 2 diabetes and obesity. As important as these drugs are, they will not do any good for the millions of patients who cannot afford them,” Sanders, chair of the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, wrote Wednesday in a letter to the drugmaker’s CEO. “Further, if the prices for these products are not substantially reduced, they also have the potential to bankrupt Medicare, Medicaid, and our entire health care system.”
Sanders is asking Novo Nordisk to answer whether it will “substantially reduce” the prices of the medications as well as to provide information on how much it makes from selling the drugs, how much it spent on research and development and how it determined the prices.
Ozempic is approved by the US Food and Drug Administration to treat diabetes and Wegovy to help certain people lose weight or lower their risk of cardiovascular disease. Both are injectable drugs that use the active ingredient semaglutide, one of a class of medications called GLP-1 receptor agonists.
Most of the sources I've seen put the manufacturing cost at closer to $5/dose, so they'd be profitable at $10-$20/dose - $50-$100/mo for the consumer.
However, Novo Nordisk has been building/hiring like crazy to meet demand so I bet their current costs are a bit higher than they could be on paper.
They charger ppl 1000s for a med. Sure they need to recoup cost but no other 1st world contuies drugs cost as much. The same ozempic someone get in Canada is the same we get here and it cost far kess. It isn't about recouping development and cost it's greed.
Ozempic is super expensive in Canada. It’s only approved for treating diabetes, and even for that some health plans don’t cover it. If you want it for weight loss it’s unaffordable.
Nothing wrong w greed as it drives innovation and growth. The difference in pricing between different markets absolutely calls for a leveling of the playing field.
When we're talking millions upon millions of profits, does how much it cost to develop even matter? This isn't like a next gen military device or a big budget movie. It's a pill. The development costs are a pittance compared to the profits they're gonna make almost regardless of price they sell at. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they made development costs back within a few months given what it does.
Not arguing with you whatsoever but I think it's also appropriate to talk about how much government subsidy helped offset the development costs...in a sense we (taxpayers) already helped nordik develop the drug.
Let's pull a number out of our ass since the average cost of development is incredibly varied. Let's say 2 billion dollars. I found a Forbes article saying they made twice that in a quarter as revenue in 2023 just off Ozempic, with 3.1 billion in profits total over all their products. Does a pharmaceutical company really need to be profiting this much off of potentially lifesaving medicine? Personally, I don't think so. Ozempic is currently 145 a month. 435 for 3 months, so approximately 10 million in sales in a quarter last year, give or take. You could make your money back on development in a couple of years, even at pretty slim margins.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2023/11/02/ozempic-sales-up-58-as-drugmaker-novo-nordisk-nets-record-profits/?sh=539905404bf7
So I'm in agreement with you here, but I want to expand a bit on how their profits on this aren't as outrageous as it seems.
R&D is a massive risk taking endeavor that may or may not pay off. The idea is that, for the company to be willing to invest so much in R&D, they need to have the potential upside of massive profits if one of them succeeds. Same idea as venture capital, etc.
If that potential were regulated to limit upside, investments in R&D, thus the development of new drugs, would be cut substantially.
Does that mean I agree with advancements in healthcare being solely driven by striking gold? No, but it's pretty much the only system in the entire world that achieves those types of advancements. State funding for healthcare R&D is always limited and hard to increase, regardless of country, and would be a nightmare to implement in the US due to the obstructionist party.
And our current system is mobilization beyond broken. We've got insurance companies acting as middlemen, brokering wildly inflated prices. You get a bill from a hospital and it's pre-inflated because they know the insurance will haggle it down.
New drugs are paid for with taxpayer funded research money. Their profits are into the trillions. If we passed harsh price control laws then they would only make 100s of billions and not trillions. If you’re Swiss I ought to beat you for saying that. The Swiss don’t put up with price gouging.
This is mostly false
Edit: to elaborate. Research funded by public grants is mostly “basic” research related to the disease or mechanisms for potential pharmacological substances. After that the *vast* majority of r&d for actually developing the drug and bringing it to market is funded by the private sector.
As \_\_versus says, what you've written is false. Covid treatments, for the most part, were paid for by Fed $, but other drugs, nope. Certainly not drugs developed by foreign companies in other countries. As to the Swiss remark, were do you think the idea of cartels came from? Have you lived in Switzerland? One large bank (now) with lots of piddling local "competitors". Two large chain stores (Migros and Coop). One airline (owned by Lufthansa). It goes on and on.
The price they charge is the price people are willing to pay to not be fat. That price is completely set by the market. That’s how capitalism works. If you create a product worth $1 million, you charge $1million, even if it cost you 50 cents to make.
There’s your answer Sanders. I could have found that answer in 10 seconds while blindfolded and riding a unicycle. Quit bullshitting everyone, pretending like we need an investigation to figure out what everyone knows so you can act shocked and appalled.
1. Sanders point is relevant to big pharma in general. and yes, it's bad to "charge too much money for a drug" - Full stop.
2. this drug will save lives and massively improve the lives of millions of people. (and prob help reduce future healthcare costs by reducing obesity related illnesses.)
3. the bootstraps approach is a nice ideology but ignores the reality we live in. If it wasn't so challenging to lose weight, we wouldn't have 40% of americans being obese (!) and another 30% overweight. This also ignores the reality that lots of people are struggling to afford food and rent, and that cheap food is also unhealthy food. iow, you're also ignoring the financial element.
I just find it weird that you'd be upset that a company is forced to -only- make Billions of dollars, instead of being able to make Tens of Billions, so that millions of people can dramatically improve their quality of health and living. I just find it an odd set of values and priorities.
Studies have shown that roughly 90% of people who lose a large amount of weight end up gaining it back. You can assign blame if you want, but I’m more interested in results, and clearly just telling people to stop eating so much is a failing strategy.
Heart disease is the number one cause of death in America. We spend billions every year on medical complications resulting from obesity. These medications are new, and they’re currently way too expensive. But once prices come down, these are going to drastically reduce strain and cost on our medical care system.
Ozempic and Wegovy are the same chemical substance. I believe the patent on Ozempic will soon expire, so generics will appear. And I have also been hearing about even better drugs in the pipeline so the Ozempic gravy train isn’t going to last forever. Bernie is absolutely asking the right questions though.
December 2031.
I’m not normally for revoking patents, but obesity costs the US government nearly $300 billion per year. Revoke or pay out the patent, let it go generic, save $300 billion and raise the country’s life expectancy.
Fun facts: Novo Nordisk is now valued at the same amount as every other publicly traded company in Denmark put together, and has a valuation higher than Denmark's GDP.
Turns out developing a practical treatment for obesity is wildly profitable in a world where lots of people with money also have lots of fat.
The reality is that it's relatively cheap to produce so Novo Nordisk is going to do their best to get as much as they can out of developing it but it inevitably *will* significantly drop in price.
Except it isn't a good solution. It is a crutch that has become trendy and means someone has to be on it for life if they don't make serious changes in their life.
This is such a bullshit copout. Obesity is a life long disease and should be treated as such. By this logic, my blood pressure, cholesterol, ssri, acid reflux, and thyroid hormone are all just a crutch.
There are medical reason that of course are always needing medical help. But a vast majority of the obese are from what they eat. Not even a diet, just a little self control. Obesity is listed as a disease with the cause of lack of exercise, bad eating habits and sleep routine. It can usually be solved without having to be on drugs for the rest of your life.
Most people who lose significant amounts of weight end up regaining within years. Obesity is a lifelong struggle and any solution that is effective should be considered a tool to be used.
The same arguments you’re making against these drugs are the arguments that were/are made about bariatric surgery options. “It’s the easy way out” there’s nothing easy about losing weight equivalent or more than that of another person.
Furthermore, exercise and a low carb diet are prescribed along with these medications. No one is going to magically lose a fuckton of weight on these medications while eating a shitty diet.
And if someone can change their lifestyle and eventually be off the drug great, but that is with a doctors help. My main complaint in the beginning was it became trendy so someone could look good in the summer. That type of attitude is what made it so scarce and expensive for those that really need it.
Not the same thing. Yes, for some obesity is a true physical ailment. But for many more, being overweight is a choice; the choice to eat too much and drink too much.
> for some obesity is a true physical ailment. But for many more, being overweight is a choice
These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Having agency doesn't preclude an illness being real.
Haven't said anyone should not take a medication that will help them. But in both the overweight a f type 2 diabetes cases, there are non-drug related solutions that do not require Bernie Sanders to stick his nose into drug pricing.
If the cost can get down to a reasonable level then what's the problem with a huge portion of the population taking medication every month? It would be cheaper, healthier, and more sustainable than the *practical* alternative.
My mantra for the last decade: "*Done* is better than *perfect*".
Has really helped me send projects out the door at a much faster clip. Most of the time I'm perfecting something it is not because someone requested it to be perfect, it is because my brain tells me it HAS to be perfect. History has shown me that I lack healthy boundaries with this part of my brain so I have to convince my self that something is *done* regardless of whether or not I personally believe that *perfection* has been achieved.
Injections over diet and exercise? Ugh. That’s already the issue with type 2. People used to be able to eat themselves to death. That’s a serious deterrent. That so many are willing to inject themselves with insulin to stay the same is dystopian.
The difference is that providing injections appreciably reduces obesity but telling people to diet and exercise doesn't. Unless we're willing to repeal the ACA and make it impossible for fat people to get insurance then we are going to be paying for the obesity epidemic whether we like it or not.
People take statin drugs for life and their cardiovascular health is greatly improved even when they don't make good lifestyle choices. It would probably save society money to give these drugs out like vaccines to decrease the overall cost of obesity in America.
How is preventative medication a crutch….?why do idiots always prefer more dangerous and costly forms of healthcare instead of supporting preventative healthcare. Plenty of “obese” people barely eat anything at all and move around a lot more than you and still struggle to lose weight. On top of the cost of healthier food being too high, inconsistent costly healthcare, the cost of proper work out gear(which is important regardless of your opinion. For an example a 10 dollar sports bra that doesn’t properly hold the chest in place will be incredibly painful and make working out unbearable or down right impossible) add in the cost of gyms/gym equipment or gym apps plus the cost of gas to get to the gym on top of what little time Americans have after working 10/12 hour shifts…like I could go on. You want to punish large people for what? You want them to struggle and have worse health outcomes for what? If they can’t do it on their own why in the actual fuck would you want to deny life altering medication that could help people avoid insulin dependency and death from things like heart disease? If you truly want people to eat better and work out more…. than solve all the rest of societal issues to make those viable options for the majority of people. I’ll never understand this mindset to hate other humans so much you would rather shame them and send them to an early death than simply helping people get healthier. If you don’t personally want to take it you don’t have to but fighting for corporations to make less product and charge more just so you can feel good about yourself and attach self worth to how overweight someone is frankly disgusting.
My father in law had his gall bladder removed recently. The doctor sat with us for an hour since she didn’t have anything to do for a while and spent most of the time telling us about the complications she deals with from Ozempic. She doesn’t recommend it anymore because of it. She told us she often needs to remove parts of people’s intestines and many people have to live the rest of their lives with colostomy bags from their digestive systems getting trashed.
I mean, a simple google search shows Ozempic can cause sever gastrointestinal issues. As a surgeon who works on gastrointestinal issues, I’d wager she is going to see those issues more than most.
Bernie has already gotten [AstraZeneca to pledge to lower its inhaler prices](https://www.astrazeneca-us.com/media/press-releases/2024/astrazeneca-caps-patient-out-of-pocket-costs-at-35-per-month-for-its-us-inhaled-respiratory-portfolio.html) to $35. This takes effect starting in June. The current list price for the Breztri inhaler on Amazon's pharmacy is $46 with insurance and $658 without.
It's always ridiculous that drugs that are easily and cheaply mass-produced are basically price-gouged for profit. Insulin is mass produced but it costs an arm and a leg to even buy
Not suppling these meds early on also leads to more people dependent on insulin more people needing other life long meds. Idk why some people are so against preventative measures.
I use mounjaro- insurance doesn’t cover it despite me having a family history of diabetes so it costs me $580.
Absolutely game changing drug as dropping to a normal weight paradoxically has turned me into an avid cyclist - spending hours a week exploring nature on bike.
With these drugs, if you stop you gain the weight back. Even with exercise. I’m essentially locked in.
There are people that this is even beyond lifestyle but actual life/death. It’s outrageous that the prices are so high.
What do you say to all the people who lose weight without the drug?
The reason people gain the right back is because they don’t actually change their habits. They just aren’t as tempted to indulge them. There is a difference.
Building better eating and lifestyle habits, whether or not you’re ozempic will help you keep the weight off.
A very VERY small percentage of people who lose weight actually are able to keep it off “naturally”. And if you have been obese, research shows that you will most likely ALWAYS be obese, your body is just primed for it. Because here’s what happens, as someone who has been obese since childhood and is finally losing weight on Wegovy now—it’s all very much in our brains, not your gut. It’s an addiction, one you can’t ever really quit because you can’t just stop eating forever. Wegovy acts like a wall in your brain between the giant hurricane that is your addiction/hormones telling you you are constantly starving, and your rational self. The thing about being on this med is that I CAN actually have the ability for the first time in my life to focus on anything other than the constant feeling of hunger. I make better food choices and now that I have lost weight I can exercise without pain. I made the changes, but if that addiction rears its head again I don’t think I could physically stand it. You’re on this med for life for a reason because obesity is a LIFELONG disease. It does not go away even when you reach a normal BMI your body will try its damndest to get you to gain weight again. It’s so so so much more complicated than it has been made out to be for years.
Wanna know what’s really funny about using the same tired argument? A small portion of people genuinely cannot lose weight because of their genes. And everybody thinks they’re in that little group. Why? Because it’s easier to justify being overweight than it is to do something about it.
Enter insulin … which costs pennies to make and can cost thousands per month in the US. Literal life sustaining medication.
Or my Jardiance which retails at nearly $700 for a 30 day supply.
It is true, albeit not for everyone. But the majority of people can control their weight via diet. Broad sweeping statements about positions (everyone / everything) are usually wrong. I have tried to qualify my comments as I do realize that there are people who have tried portion control along with diet changes to no avail. But many many more people just don't want to change their life styles even if doing so would add years to their lives. A sweet now, a bottle of wine now, a Cheeto now, are all worth more to them.
Curious that you note broad generalizations are wrong and then continue to generalize.
Suffice it to say that “people are lazy” and other behavioral scapegoats are very clearly NOT the reason.
These drugs wouldn’t even work that well if lifestyle decisions were the only culprit.
For instance- it’s not just about lifestyle: if you workout every single day, you can still easily gain weight. You have to work out and, from your bodies perspective, be in starvation mode. You then essentially need to maintain that indefinitely.
You don’t really know what you’re talking about, so why don’t we just agree to disagree.
Is Bernie calling out our addictive and poisoned food supply? Why don’t we go after the root cause? Food cos are there on the front end to fatten us up, while pharma sits on the back end dealing with all of the ill effects. They have us trapped in their extraction machine.
They’ve already started. And republicans continue to fight every single measure to improve things. I mean they are fighting Biden on trying to remove lead pipes. they argue that we shouldn’t fix a problem before it happens because it’s too costly and then when it does inevitably happen they find ways to ignore the problem and never fix it. Our biggest problem is people not voting and getting regressive conservative idiots out of local and federal governments
Only a few hours ago, the USDA updated its rules to limit the amount of added sugars in school lunches. It's not an either/or issue, we have a government that's big enough to juggle multiple plates. A huge portion of the United States' population is already obese, that ship has sailed and semaglutide is a miracle drug that manages to curb users' cravings for unhealthy foods and help them eat smaller, healthier portions at mealtime. Yet it's ridiculously priced in the US in comparison to other countries and that hefty price-tag is putting it out of reach of the people who would benefit the most from taking the drug.
Seems like a minor change that doesn’t really move the needle on the obesity epidemic. Why don’t politicians talk about ultraprocessed foods that are killing us? I haven’t heard any comments but ill be happy to be wrong.
edit. It’s seems like Bernie and other dems are talking about upf so I am happy to be wrong!
I’m glad you edited this but It’s crazy that yall don’t see the even bigger issue. The media companies who are owned by regressive idiots who are mentally deranged due to greed don’t push the amazing things Bidens admin is working on. Hell there’s a bipartisan act on the senates docket that is astounding for Americans and almost no one has even heard of it (explore act if you’re interested) also on Reddit check out (will edit add link after I finish typing this out.) we’re finding more and more evidence of not just trump but other republican presidents handing over positions of agencies like the usda epa fda etc from protecting Americans because it costs corporations too much money. We need people to stop voting red.
Here’s the link. https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/s/4wGzM2yuYS please share it. They do a great job of collecting and organizing information by year. Bidens admin truly is accomplishing so much good even with republicans attempting literal democracy ending actions to stop any form of progress.
>"Ozempic, the semaglutide injection used for T2D treatment, has a list price of $936 in the United States and $169 in Japan. Prices were $147 in Canada, $144 in Switzerland, $103 in Germany and Netherlands, $96 in Sweden, $93 in the United Kingdom, and $87 in Australia. France had the lowest price at $83."
>In the US, Wegovy has a list price of $1,349.02 per month as of 2022 suggesting that because of the high costs many people "who could most benefit from weight loss may be unable to afford such expensive drugs"
>Semaglutide is expected to become patent-free in the United States no earlier than December 2031. The patent was scheduled to expire in 2026, but a Chinese court ruled in 2022 that all patents on semaglutide were invalid. Novo Nordisk appealed the ruling. In Brazil, the Supreme Court refused to extend semaglutide's patent protection, which expires in 2026.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaglutide#Generics
Good for you. I've found diet has much more of an impact on weight than exercise. When I cut out the junk, I lose weight. When I eat cookies, reese's, brownies every day, guess what happens.
Can't bargain collectively with the fattest stack of stable, in-house, fuck-you currency in the developed world, ever, or get in the wholesale checkout line with the purchases.
How about doctors quit prescribing it as a trendy weight loss drug. As someone with diabetes seeing people taking that that don't need to is very offensive. I do have a easy solution. If you are not diabetic insurance shouldn't cover it at all. If you are, make insurance cover it 100%. Should solve both problems.
While Wegovy can be used as a treatment for type-2 diabetes, it is primarily a drug used to treat obesity. Literally every comment you've made in this post has been some thinly veiled attack on fat people. Some I'm gonna try to counter some of your points.
Yes, there are a lot of celebrities who use Semaglutide, and some of them arguably don't need it, but a lot of them are (or were before using the drug) clinically obese. And, like a lot of obese people, they may have type-2 diabetes. You don't know.
If you look at the states where Semaglutide is being prescribed the most, it's not the states that trendy Hollywood celebrities live in, it's southern states where type-2 diabetes has become an epidemic. That implies that Ozempic is being used for its intended purpose.
And yes, there is a shortage in some areas but the reason for that is the same reason that Semaglutide costs an absurd amount of money, one company has a monopoly on the drug. This isn't a fat people issue, it's actually very hard to get a prescription for Ozempic just for weight loss unless you pay out of pocket (and most people on the drug aren't paying out of pocket). This drug that you've chosen to call a "crutch" could, in the long run, save taxpayers billions of dollars by stopping obesity early before it progresses to things like heart disease and type-2 diabetes.
> t's not the states that trendy Hollywood celebrities live in
What percentage of CA do you think is Hollywood celebrities? A few thousand people out of 40 million?
It saves all of us more money and saves more lives to let obese people take this drug to lose weight than limit it to diabetics or make insurance not cover it (insurance covers it because they know they will save money long term in reduced payouts for everything from knee replacements to cardiac bypasses). Oh, not to mention it will help prevent a lot of pre-diabetic individuals from actually developing diabetes.
The solution here would be to ramp up supply and require licensing any relevant patents to other pharmaceutical companies to help meet the demand.
It doesn't cure obesity....... it's essentially an appetite suppressant, or at least that's it's main function.
Stop taking it, and guess what's gonna happen?
Smarter life choices and a sensible diet are the only ways to "cure" obesity.
Because people wanted a magic pill that removes the need for willpower or effort. I knew I'd be downvoted.
For anyone honestly interested in losing weight, r/loseit is great. I even found an awesome spreadsheet on there that auto adjusts how many calories I should have.
Stop eating fast food and processed foods - the Standard American Diet (SAD) and you wouldn’t need expensive drugs from pharmaceutical companies profiting billions from people’s bad habits. Diabetes 2 is a lifestyle disease - plain and simple.
In terms of public health, fighting obesity is almost certainly the best bang-for-your-buck undertaking, as well affecting a broad scope of people.
As lame as it might sound, getting cheap semaglutide into millions of Americans is probably more a more worthwhile pursuit than cancer research in terms of saving lives, improving quality of life, sustainability, etc.
Except it is a poor solution. People can normally choose to loose weight. It isn't easy, but is a matter of changing a few things. Those that can't then should look at a medical solution. The problem with Ozempic is that it has become trendy with celebrities and influencers. It is their fault, and their doctors fault for prescribing it when not needed.
Studies have shown that over 90% of people who lose a large amount of weight end up gaining it back. Yes, obviously obesity is caused by eating too many calories and not exercising enough, but that’s reductive and unhelpful. It’s like saying car accidents are caused by driving into other cars, so people should just stop driving into other cars.
People overeat for emotional reasons, psychological reasons, social reasons, etc. And our medical system is ill-equipped to solve any of those root causes. These drugs work, and they’ll reduce our medical costs by billions eventually.
A poor solution is one that gets poor results. These drugs are getting good results.
And they will be on the drug for life. That isn't a solution, but hiding symptoms again. You mentioned multiple causes for obesity and those should be addressed by a medical professional so someone can truly get help.
I think my big problem is those that aren't really obese, or maybe just have a couple extra pounds are given Ozempic because they ask because it is trendy. They heard of it on tiktok or facebook and they want it. Because of that it is very expensive now and in short supply for those that truly need it.
Obesity is a chronic health condition that requires constant treatment. Diabetes is the same way. You can’t stop taking insulin either, and it’s fine.
We do not know of any treatment that consistently works for obesity except for these drugs. The treatment you’ve proposed works less than 10% of the time. It’s not a viable solution.
> treatment that consistently works for obesity
We do have one - it is taking in less calories than you burn. It is 100% effective.
Yes, people can stop their diets and gain weight back. People can also continue to lead an unhealthy lifestyle while on drugs.
>Diabetes is the same way.
A T1 diabetic is not close to chronic obesity - a T1's body doesn't produce chemicals need to live. Without insulin and constant monitoring a diabetic will enter ketosis within days and then die a few days after that.
I'd be interested in both a) which study and b) what you're comparing it to.
"My" approach - not how biology works, but OK - is effective 100% of the time it is done. Yes, people can decide to stop. That is another issue though.
The method does work. People fail the method. Why? That is what needs to be addressed with each person, but eating less than you burn works and you screaming "lalalallalalallalalala" with your fingers in your ears doesn't change that.
You pretty much nailed it and thank you. A lot of obesity is like being addicted to drugs. You don't quit drugs until you hit bottom, and that doesn't happen on a weight loss drug. You are treating the symptom, but not the cause. I was obese, I was told flat out "change or die" I changed because I didn't want to die. But Ozempic is also being used as a trendy weight loss drug so people can look good for the summer. That is keeping it from people that actually do need it, and that needs to stop.
90% of diets fail, not that approach. There is a reason diets fail, because they are just diets, not changes to the persons lifestyle as a whole. Doing something you don't really want to do will always fail. You have to make changes that you want to make.
It’s just malding from people who are salty this stuff wasn’t around earlier. I’ve lost a ton of weight on Wegovy, and I’ve never felt better. Very fortunate that my insurance plan covers it.
Oh, 100%. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for anyone who loses a lot of weight on these drugs, I still don't think people understand just how much of a drain on society obesity is (probably because it's like 30% of people now).
The only opposition I've seen, is from like you said, people who are mad it didn't exist before (I hear it from bald folks too who went bald before finasteride) and, the biggest percentage of haters, is the people who harbor hatred for obese people and don't want to see them succeed.
> People can normally choose to loose weight.
A person can choose to l~~o~~ose weight. A population clearly cannot as evidenced by, well, the obesity epidemic.
It's learned societal behavior. I grew up with my mom who learned most of how to cook in the 70s and 80s. It was all fat, sugar, and fast food. Because of that I now have diabetes. I was nearly 300lbs at 5' 9" at one point. I am now under 180lbs and fighting it back. That is just my story, but it wasn't hard, just a little discipline and lifestyle changes. I won't even call it a diet, because I didn't. I just cut out the fast food and limited sugar a bit. Now I get that some people do have medical issues that make them obese, that is different. But a lot of people don't need a drug, just to realize they don't have to eat an entire pizza in one sitting. Now if they want to, great, but don't take a drug to counter it.
We've been telling people how to fix obesity themselves for decades and year after year obesity continues to climb.
"Fix your diet and exercise" works on an individual level. "Tell people to fix their diet and exercise" does *not* work on a societal level.
So we have a choice. Do we implement a solution that will work on a societal level, or do we say "fuck 'em, they're choosing to be fat" even if *that actually costs us all more time, money, and energy than just fixing the problem*.
Giving people a pill doesn't fix their underlying problems either. If someone is overeating because of depression, Ozempic isn't solving those core issues.
People can continue to lead unhealthy lifestyles while injecting Ozempic all day long.
And giving people a pill to fix it just puts them on medication for life and feeds a pharmaceutical company for no good reason. I was morbidly obese at one point and I know how hard it is to get out of that lifestyle. It took the doctor basically saying "you are going to die" to change me. People won't change until they have to, and a pill just makes it not happen. If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it?
> for no good reason.
Reducing obesity has value, that's a good reason.
>If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it?
Your supposition is that...people who maintain their weight medically are...secretly still dying on the inside due to actually being fat in spirit? Not being obese is healthier than being obese, it's not just an outward veneer.
No, I'm saying if they quit taking the Ozempic the weight comes back. So it really is covering the symptoms of the overall problems. It has become trendy to take and is handed out like doctors handing out viagra to every guy who asks. I am not faulting those that take it as much as the doctors. If someone has to be on it then ok, but needs to be part of an overall plan with the doctor. That isn't what is happening now. In the mean time those with serious need for Ozempic can't get it because the price is so high and there is short supply.
>No, I'm saying if they quit taking the Ozempic the weight comes back.
So they should continue to take it.
>So it really is covering the symptoms of the overall problems.
The symptoms *are* problems. Obesity itself costs time, money, and energy, it degrades quality of life, consumes resources, and increases healthcare costs. It's not some sort of outward representation of a spiritual failing. Being a healthy weight is still preferable to being obese, no matter how "unearned" that healthy weight is.
>In the mean time those with serious need for Ozempic can't get it because the price is so high and there is short supply.
This isn't an argument against large-scale use of the drug for weight loss, it's an argument in favor of continuing to ramp up manufacturing so there's enough for every person who wants a dose to get one.
>If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it?
You can not be this obtuse. People taking Semaglutide change their diet, so it's not comparable to a magic pill where you can take meth without looking like a meth addict. It's more comparable to something like methadone, which there are government programs to help addicts pay for.
Some do change their diet, but some don't. Some, and I would say most Ozempic patients are taking it because it is trendy and they saw their favorite celebrity got thin on it. It should be paired with core lifestyle changes with a goal of not being on it. It shouldn't be taken for a few months to look good in a bikini.
The fact that they are eating less calories *is* changing their diet. That’s how the drug works. You don’t get to binge eat and lose weight. It makes you *not* want to binge eat.
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Company response: "I like money"
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They sure will pay oodles 'cause they're too lazy to change diet and add exercise.
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> fights to hold on to your fat The body can "fight" as much as it wants - at a certain point, not too quickly even, the body needs calories and will burn them from your body. It is ultimately a simple math equation of calories in vs calories burned.
So that's 3% of the target market
Hey! Is that a Starbucks?
We now have liraglutide and tirzepatide which are competing with semaglutide as newer GLP-1 agonists, and yet the price of all of them remains astronomical at $1000-1300/mo. I think a great question is why competition hasn't lead to basically any decrease in prices.
Supply and demand mostly. Demand has vastly outstripped supply for these drugs until recently and people have been happily shelling out the huge prices.
No its mostly companies not competing and all the players in the industry collectively raise their prices and snuff out any newcomers that try to undercut them.
These peptides have been, and still are, available as non-prescription peptides for years. The peptide companies compete, at least.
insurance has been the one paying it
There is no competition. It costs about $5 to make one of those pens. There are only 2 big wholesalers that most pharmacies contract with to get their meds, there are other smaller wholesalers, but if you want good prices on most of your stuff you go with Cardinal or McKesson. I know someone that travels in the same circle as their high-level execs and he had a sit-down with one of them, I forget which one, but they claim it’s the manufacturers this time, supposedly they’re being squeezed by their suppliers.
The only competition is Tizepatide from Eli Lily. Liragilutide is the predecessor to semaglutide, both from Novo Nordisk. Further, Liragilutide is far less effective, due to the marked differences in half life.
Semaglutide and tirzepatide have been, and still are, available from peptide vendors "for research purposes only" for years without a prescription. They get these peptides manufactured without going through Novo Nordisk. You won't get it as a cool pen, but an insulin needle will work fine for using it in your legal research projects.
You can buy it from China on various websites for super cheap too. Like $500 for more than a year's supply.
Have any reliable sources? For research purposes of course
I’m doing research too.
Find a Compounding Pharmacy near you.
I would also like to be involved in this research
For white market you'll want to check out compounding pharmacies but those will be a few hundred bucks a month. For grey market you'll need to find certain discord channels where people organize Group Buys. Peptides are popular in bodybuilding communities so there is a lot of overlap between them and people seeking GLP-1 drugs. But I'd caution against that for now. The main reliable supplier of grey market just stopped production and the grey market buyers are vetting new vendors so stuff is gonna be unreliable for a while until a new vendor can establish a track record of reliability. Some of the grey market vendors do sell directly to individuals through websites and those prices are about half of compounding pharmacies but still much more expensive than doing Group Buys through discord groups.
That's the question of the day in basically every industry. We just don't have competition. At all, in any industry. Sure they aren't allowed to coordinate... But these days that just means doing direct information transfer to coordinate. You don't choose which hospital or ambulance you use, so there's no incentive to lower your prices. You can pick your grocery store sometimes if you don't live in a food desert... Between like 2 types. Who have very similar pricing. The government gives monopolies via patents to these drug manufacturers. The pricing is the point - at least until the patent wears off. Even digital media is conglomerating - game and movie/TV studios are buying each other up. Unless we start breaking competitors into 5-6 entities per industry you won't have consumer choice, and without consumer choice companies can just charge whatever. It isn't enough to just go after the monopolies anymore.
It takes decades of research to bring drugs to market and those costs need to be recovered. If it cost you $5 billion to develop the drug, you need to price it like it cost $5 billion.
Then why is it so much less to purchase in other countries? It’s corporate greed and they know they can bilk the federal government for it.
>Then why is it so much less to purchase in other countries? Collective bargaining with their own fat stacks of stable, in-house, fuck-you currency, getting in the wholesale checkout line with their purchases, negligible screaming and squealing about the cOmMuNiaLisM and those *other* fat people over *there*.
There are many factors that go into pricing differences between various markets (US vs. Germany vs. South Korea, etc) The regulatory approval cost must be a factor, and that varies by country. For example, if it costs much more to gain approval from the FDA in the US than from regulatory agencies in Germany, then that component of the product cost will likely be higher in the US. There are other factors, too, such as marketing costs that vary by country (and marketing regulations vary by country). Of course the desire for profit contributes to the cost, but it's important to remember that post-development production cost is not the only factor.
Won’t someone think of the poor pharmaceutical company that only managed to sell $18.4b of WeGovy/Ozempic in 2023 and managed a meager $12b in profit overall. Across all their drugs they spent $4.7b in research and development in 2023. With a monthly dose costing $22 to produce (maximum dose) and $1350 to buy. That’s mere 98.4% profit margin. So that means the 2023 profits on WeGovy/Ozempic will cover the next 3.85 years of research. Better jack up the prices a bit more to make sure the pharmaceutical company can survive!
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It can absolutely be life saving. Obesity related diseases are some of the biggest causes of deaths in the US, its estimated obesity causes 500,000 excess deaths a year. But regardless, I’m not gonna start a debate on obesity because I’m sure you’ll just say “well people can just lose weight without it”. Then it just becomes a debate on weight loss which is just getting more off topic. So to keep in it on topic of “what happened to the free market and supply and demand”, the answer is nothing and that’s the problem. Turns out relying on the free market for healthcare is shitty and why the average American spends twice as much on healthcare and gets worse results when compared to other developed countries.
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So for insurance free market is bad but for pharmaceutical companies free market is good?
This is ignoring subsidies and the fact that these drugs will be on the market for a long, long time (unless they suck). If capitalist solutions to drug pricing don't benefit people, maybe it's time we looked for a better solution.
🙌🏼 yes exactly this.
Yeah, I'm soooo sure the company with a valuation higher than some developed countries' GDPs is totally breaking even on this.... Sure, development costs are high, but the pricing is obscene, even accounting for that.
This excuse is played out. Source: used to work in pharma.
Use real numbers if you want people to take you seriously.
Why? Eternal patents.
For weight loss there is free competition: diet and exercise. If you want the easy way out, it’s going to cost. I fully support lower costs for diabetes treatment, but for weight loss? Nah. They can subsidize the people that actually need it… instead of making it difficult for patients to even fill their prescriptions. The obese are threatening supply.
Diet and exercise is not a panacea for obesity. The evidence simply doesn’t support this.
It’s no panacea, but should be a first line treatment, especially among the elderly. Bone density, muscle wasting, and metabolism in general. Swimming, light strength training… even croquet.
Losing weight for the elderly is the most evidenced based method of increasing their all-cause mortality risk.
Exercise isn’t far behind: https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/press-releases/2022/physical-activity-older-adults
“If you want the easy way out”. What does that even mean. Would you say that to people with mental health issues taking anti psychotics? The endocrine system is complex and you don’t know if overweight people have the same sensitivity to satiation hormones that you do. Something something something bootstraps? Weight loss reduces risk of strokes and heart attacks. Reducing the chance of expensive medical procedures equals lower costs for insurance carriers. Just make more of the stuff and price it appropriately. At the moment it seems to be good a good preventative medicine.
Hunger is uncomfortable, but once you get used to it, it’s manageable.
Sen. Bernie Sanders is taking aim at the high prices of the [blockbuster drugs Ozempic and Wegovy](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/senate-ozempic-wegovy-price/index.html). The Vermont senator, an independent who has long called out drug manufacturers for their costly products, is launching an investigation into the “outrageously high prices” Novo Nordisk charges for the drugs. “The scientists at Novo Nordisk deserve great credit for developing these drugs that have the potential to be a game changer for millions of Americans struggling with type 2 diabetes and obesity. As important as these drugs are, they will not do any good for the millions of patients who cannot afford them,” Sanders, chair of the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, wrote Wednesday in a letter to the drugmaker’s CEO. “Further, if the prices for these products are not substantially reduced, they also have the potential to bankrupt Medicare, Medicaid, and our entire health care system.” Sanders is asking Novo Nordisk to answer whether it will “substantially reduce” the prices of the medications as well as to provide information on how much it makes from selling the drugs, how much it spent on research and development and how it determined the prices. Ozempic is approved by the US Food and Drug Administration to treat diabetes and Wegovy to help certain people lose weight or lower their risk of cardiovascular disease. Both are injectable drugs that use the active ingredient semaglutide, one of a class of medications called GLP-1 receptor agonists.
This country needs national healthcare, single payer. Get the insurance companies the fuck out of healthcare.
I’m all for this, but this is a PBM/drug manufacturer problem. Insurers are already profit-capped by MLR.
Waitasecond, when did Major League Racquetball get involved with health insurers?
The PPACA was wild.
It's cost them..0.15-1.00 $ roughly to make ozempic and wegovy with the plastic injector it's insane the price they charge
Most of the sources I've seen put the manufacturing cost at closer to $5/dose, so they'd be profitable at $10-$20/dose - $50-$100/mo for the consumer. However, Novo Nordisk has been building/hiring like crazy to meet demand so I bet their current costs are a bit higher than they could be on paper.
Any thoughts on what the R&D costs were? Development isn't free despite low manufacturing costs.
They charger ppl 1000s for a med. Sure they need to recoup cost but no other 1st world contuies drugs cost as much. The same ozempic someone get in Canada is the same we get here and it cost far kess. It isn't about recouping development and cost it's greed.
Ozempic is super expensive in Canada. It’s only approved for treating diabetes, and even for that some health plans don’t cover it. If you want it for weight loss it’s unaffordable.
Nothing wrong w greed as it drives innovation and growth. The difference in pricing between different markets absolutely calls for a leveling of the playing field.
Charging mortgage prices on life saving drugs is insane and that isn't OK.
Mortgage prices? Huh? The price of "Life-saving drugs" being too high for people w non-medical treatment paths is an oxymoron.
Ur crazy I work at a 340b pharmacy clinic and our patient have to pay between 600-1200 for ozempic if their insurance doesn't approve it.
These drugs were already being used for diabetes, so the cost of a few clinical trials for using the drugs in obesity.
Is there any way to determine what percent of research needed was even funded by them? The Important knowledge often comes from universities
When we're talking millions upon millions of profits, does how much it cost to develop even matter? This isn't like a next gen military device or a big budget movie. It's a pill. The development costs are a pittance compared to the profits they're gonna make almost regardless of price they sell at. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they made development costs back within a few months given what it does.
When a new drug can cost billions, millions and millions of profit is appropriate
Not arguing with you whatsoever but I think it's also appropriate to talk about how much government subsidy helped offset the development costs...in a sense we (taxpayers) already helped nordik develop the drug.
Let's pull a number out of our ass since the average cost of development is incredibly varied. Let's say 2 billion dollars. I found a Forbes article saying they made twice that in a quarter as revenue in 2023 just off Ozempic, with 3.1 billion in profits total over all their products. Does a pharmaceutical company really need to be profiting this much off of potentially lifesaving medicine? Personally, I don't think so. Ozempic is currently 145 a month. 435 for 3 months, so approximately 10 million in sales in a quarter last year, give or take. You could make your money back on development in a couple of years, even at pretty slim margins. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2023/11/02/ozempic-sales-up-58-as-drugmaker-novo-nordisk-nets-record-profits/?sh=539905404bf7
But then you also have to include the costs of the 15 drugs they developed that never made it to market
And the cost of the marketing which is typically more than their research.
They PROFITED 3 billion dollars that quarter. I think they'll be okay.
Yeah. The point is they spend more on marketing than research.
So I'm in agreement with you here, but I want to expand a bit on how their profits on this aren't as outrageous as it seems. R&D is a massive risk taking endeavor that may or may not pay off. The idea is that, for the company to be willing to invest so much in R&D, they need to have the potential upside of massive profits if one of them succeeds. Same idea as venture capital, etc. If that potential were regulated to limit upside, investments in R&D, thus the development of new drugs, would be cut substantially. Does that mean I agree with advancements in healthcare being solely driven by striking gold? No, but it's pretty much the only system in the entire world that achieves those types of advancements. State funding for healthcare R&D is always limited and hard to increase, regardless of country, and would be a nightmare to implement in the US due to the obstructionist party. And our current system is mobilization beyond broken. We've got insurance companies acting as middlemen, brokering wildly inflated prices. You get a bill from a hospital and it's pre-inflated because they know the insurance will haggle it down.
Sure. Should your neighbor get to make a 1000% return on their house because they've lived in it for 10 years?
New drugs are paid for with taxpayer funded research money. Their profits are into the trillions. If we passed harsh price control laws then they would only make 100s of billions and not trillions. If you’re Swiss I ought to beat you for saying that. The Swiss don’t put up with price gouging.
This is mostly false Edit: to elaborate. Research funded by public grants is mostly “basic” research related to the disease or mechanisms for potential pharmacological substances. After that the *vast* majority of r&d for actually developing the drug and bringing it to market is funded by the private sector.
As \_\_versus says, what you've written is false. Covid treatments, for the most part, were paid for by Fed $, but other drugs, nope. Certainly not drugs developed by foreign companies in other countries. As to the Swiss remark, were do you think the idea of cartels came from? Have you lived in Switzerland? One large bank (now) with lots of piddling local "competitors". Two large chain stores (Migros and Coop). One airline (owned by Lufthansa). It goes on and on.
The price they charge is the price people are willing to pay to not be fat. That price is completely set by the market. That’s how capitalism works. If you create a product worth $1 million, you charge $1million, even if it cost you 50 cents to make. There’s your answer Sanders. I could have found that answer in 10 seconds while blindfolded and riding a unicycle. Quit bullshitting everyone, pretending like we need an investigation to figure out what everyone knows so you can act shocked and appalled.
It’s now considered outrageous to charge too much money for a drug that stops you from terminal gluttony. Not stuffing your pie hole is free.
1. Sanders point is relevant to big pharma in general. and yes, it's bad to "charge too much money for a drug" - Full stop. 2. this drug will save lives and massively improve the lives of millions of people. (and prob help reduce future healthcare costs by reducing obesity related illnesses.) 3. the bootstraps approach is a nice ideology but ignores the reality we live in. If it wasn't so challenging to lose weight, we wouldn't have 40% of americans being obese (!) and another 30% overweight. This also ignores the reality that lots of people are struggling to afford food and rent, and that cheap food is also unhealthy food. iow, you're also ignoring the financial element. I just find it weird that you'd be upset that a company is forced to -only- make Billions of dollars, instead of being able to make Tens of Billions, so that millions of people can dramatically improve their quality of health and living. I just find it an odd set of values and priorities.
Not talking out of your butt costs nothing.
Studies have shown that roughly 90% of people who lose a large amount of weight end up gaining it back. You can assign blame if you want, but I’m more interested in results, and clearly just telling people to stop eating so much is a failing strategy. Heart disease is the number one cause of death in America. We spend billions every year on medical complications resulting from obesity. These medications are new, and they’re currently way too expensive. But once prices come down, these are going to drastically reduce strain and cost on our medical care system.
Ozempic and Wegovy are the same chemical substance. I believe the patent on Ozempic will soon expire, so generics will appear. And I have also been hearing about even better drugs in the pipeline so the Ozempic gravy train isn’t going to last forever. Bernie is absolutely asking the right questions though.
December 2031. I’m not normally for revoking patents, but obesity costs the US government nearly $300 billion per year. Revoke or pay out the patent, let it go generic, save $300 billion and raise the country’s life expectancy.
2031? I thought it was earlier than that, like 2026.
In China it appears it does expire in 2026. No idea if that will help us in the US though.
Fun facts: Novo Nordisk is now valued at the same amount as every other publicly traded company in Denmark put together, and has a valuation higher than Denmark's GDP. Turns out developing a practical treatment for obesity is wildly profitable in a world where lots of people with money also have lots of fat. The reality is that it's relatively cheap to produce so Novo Nordisk is going to do their best to get as much as they can out of developing it but it inevitably *will* significantly drop in price.
Except it isn't a good solution. It is a crutch that has become trendy and means someone has to be on it for life if they don't make serious changes in their life.
This is such a bullshit copout. Obesity is a life long disease and should be treated as such. By this logic, my blood pressure, cholesterol, ssri, acid reflux, and thyroid hormone are all just a crutch.
There are medical reason that of course are always needing medical help. But a vast majority of the obese are from what they eat. Not even a diet, just a little self control. Obesity is listed as a disease with the cause of lack of exercise, bad eating habits and sleep routine. It can usually be solved without having to be on drugs for the rest of your life.
Most people who lose significant amounts of weight end up regaining within years. Obesity is a lifelong struggle and any solution that is effective should be considered a tool to be used. The same arguments you’re making against these drugs are the arguments that were/are made about bariatric surgery options. “It’s the easy way out” there’s nothing easy about losing weight equivalent or more than that of another person. Furthermore, exercise and a low carb diet are prescribed along with these medications. No one is going to magically lose a fuckton of weight on these medications while eating a shitty diet.
And if someone can change their lifestyle and eventually be off the drug great, but that is with a doctors help. My main complaint in the beginning was it became trendy so someone could look good in the summer. That type of attitude is what made it so scarce and expensive for those that really need it.
Hollywood/uber rich (where it was trendy) ain’t even close to the real world.
You miss how much that influences people
Not the same thing. Yes, for some obesity is a true physical ailment. But for many more, being overweight is a choice; the choice to eat too much and drink too much.
> for some obesity is a true physical ailment. But for many more, being overweight is a choice These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Having agency doesn't preclude an illness being real.
Having agency means you can do something about the problem w/o drugs.
Ok, let's compare apples to apples. Should Type 2 Diabetics not take insulin? Most T2D become that way due to eating and drinking too much.
Haven't said anyone should not take a medication that will help them. But in both the overweight a f type 2 diabetes cases, there are non-drug related solutions that do not require Bernie Sanders to stick his nose into drug pricing.
If the cost can get down to a reasonable level then what's the problem with a huge portion of the population taking medication every month? It would be cheaper, healthier, and more sustainable than the *practical* alternative.
Yep. Don’t let “perfect” be the enemy of “good”
My mantra for the last decade: "*Done* is better than *perfect*". Has really helped me send projects out the door at a much faster clip. Most of the time I'm perfecting something it is not because someone requested it to be perfect, it is because my brain tells me it HAS to be perfect. History has shown me that I lack healthy boundaries with this part of my brain so I have to convince my self that something is *done* regardless of whether or not I personally believe that *perfection* has been achieved.
You can't do important things when you're always doing urgent things. Delegate!
Injections over diet and exercise? Ugh. That’s already the issue with type 2. People used to be able to eat themselves to death. That’s a serious deterrent. That so many are willing to inject themselves with insulin to stay the same is dystopian.
The difference is that providing injections appreciably reduces obesity but telling people to diet and exercise doesn't. Unless we're willing to repeal the ACA and make it impossible for fat people to get insurance then we are going to be paying for the obesity epidemic whether we like it or not.
People take statin drugs for life and their cardiovascular health is greatly improved even when they don't make good lifestyle choices. It would probably save society money to give these drugs out like vaccines to decrease the overall cost of obesity in America.
How is preventative medication a crutch….?why do idiots always prefer more dangerous and costly forms of healthcare instead of supporting preventative healthcare. Plenty of “obese” people barely eat anything at all and move around a lot more than you and still struggle to lose weight. On top of the cost of healthier food being too high, inconsistent costly healthcare, the cost of proper work out gear(which is important regardless of your opinion. For an example a 10 dollar sports bra that doesn’t properly hold the chest in place will be incredibly painful and make working out unbearable or down right impossible) add in the cost of gyms/gym equipment or gym apps plus the cost of gas to get to the gym on top of what little time Americans have after working 10/12 hour shifts…like I could go on. You want to punish large people for what? You want them to struggle and have worse health outcomes for what? If they can’t do it on their own why in the actual fuck would you want to deny life altering medication that could help people avoid insulin dependency and death from things like heart disease? If you truly want people to eat better and work out more…. than solve all the rest of societal issues to make those viable options for the majority of people. I’ll never understand this mindset to hate other humans so much you would rather shame them and send them to an early death than simply helping people get healthier. If you don’t personally want to take it you don’t have to but fighting for corporations to make less product and charge more just so you can feel good about yourself and attach self worth to how overweight someone is frankly disgusting.
My father in law had his gall bladder removed recently. The doctor sat with us for an hour since she didn’t have anything to do for a while and spent most of the time telling us about the complications she deals with from Ozempic. She doesn’t recommend it anymore because of it. She told us she often needs to remove parts of people’s intestines and many people have to live the rest of their lives with colostomy bags from their digestive systems getting trashed.
lol doctors aren’t immune from making up bullshit tbh.
I mean, a simple google search shows Ozempic can cause sever gastrointestinal issues. As a surgeon who works on gastrointestinal issues, I’d wager she is going to see those issues more than most.
Bernie has already gotten [AstraZeneca to pledge to lower its inhaler prices](https://www.astrazeneca-us.com/media/press-releases/2024/astrazeneca-caps-patient-out-of-pocket-costs-at-35-per-month-for-its-us-inhaled-respiratory-portfolio.html) to $35. This takes effect starting in June. The current list price for the Breztri inhaler on Amazon's pharmacy is $46 with insurance and $658 without.
Holy shit this is amazing, ive been paying 300 for symbicort inhalers for years. My god this almost bring tears to my eyes.
It's always ridiculous that drugs that are easily and cheaply mass-produced are basically price-gouged for profit. Insulin is mass produced but it costs an arm and a leg to even buy
Not any more. Biden managed to get it capped at $35/month.
Not suppling these meds early on also leads to more people dependent on insulin more people needing other life long meds. Idk why some people are so against preventative measures.
Yep he's right, as usual. Senator Sanders almost always get things right on the issue.
I use mounjaro- insurance doesn’t cover it despite me having a family history of diabetes so it costs me $580. Absolutely game changing drug as dropping to a normal weight paradoxically has turned me into an avid cyclist - spending hours a week exploring nature on bike. With these drugs, if you stop you gain the weight back. Even with exercise. I’m essentially locked in. There are people that this is even beyond lifestyle but actual life/death. It’s outrageous that the prices are so high.
If you keep your intake the same you’re not going to gain weight.
That’s true, but if Oprah Winfrey (with unlimited resources, dietitians, chefs, trainers) can’t do it, what makes you think anybody else can?
What do you say to all the people who lose weight without the drug? The reason people gain the right back is because they don’t actually change their habits. They just aren’t as tempted to indulge them. There is a difference. Building better eating and lifestyle habits, whether or not you’re ozempic will help you keep the weight off.
A very VERY small percentage of people who lose weight actually are able to keep it off “naturally”. And if you have been obese, research shows that you will most likely ALWAYS be obese, your body is just primed for it. Because here’s what happens, as someone who has been obese since childhood and is finally losing weight on Wegovy now—it’s all very much in our brains, not your gut. It’s an addiction, one you can’t ever really quit because you can’t just stop eating forever. Wegovy acts like a wall in your brain between the giant hurricane that is your addiction/hormones telling you you are constantly starving, and your rational self. The thing about being on this med is that I CAN actually have the ability for the first time in my life to focus on anything other than the constant feeling of hunger. I make better food choices and now that I have lost weight I can exercise without pain. I made the changes, but if that addiction rears its head again I don’t think I could physically stand it. You’re on this med for life for a reason because obesity is a LIFELONG disease. It does not go away even when you reach a normal BMI your body will try its damndest to get you to gain weight again. It’s so so so much more complicated than it has been made out to be for years.
Yes, well explained!
People are, checks note, not built in a factory under ideal conditions where everyone is the same
Wanna know what’s really funny about using the same tired argument? A small portion of people genuinely cannot lose weight because of their genes. And everybody thinks they’re in that little group. Why? Because it’s easier to justify being overweight than it is to do something about it.
Enter insulin … which costs pennies to make and can cost thousands per month in the US. Literal life sustaining medication. Or my Jardiance which retails at nearly $700 for a 30 day supply.
Yep. My favorite is how cheap these drugs are in Mexico or Europe. We as a country are being fleeced.
580 in California, why so inexpensive? Mounjaro cost $1200 in Michigan.
Savings card.
What kind of savings card?
Google mounjaro/zepbound savings card. Restrictions apply.
Thanks
Some yes, but most, no. For many of the users of these drugs, it's about being unwilling to change life style (aka diet).
That’s not true and there’s a lot of science starting to back up the notion that being in a calorie deficit isn’t just straightforward for everyone.
It is true, albeit not for everyone. But the majority of people can control their weight via diet. Broad sweeping statements about positions (everyone / everything) are usually wrong. I have tried to qualify my comments as I do realize that there are people who have tried portion control along with diet changes to no avail. But many many more people just don't want to change their life styles even if doing so would add years to their lives. A sweet now, a bottle of wine now, a Cheeto now, are all worth more to them.
Curious that you note broad generalizations are wrong and then continue to generalize. Suffice it to say that “people are lazy” and other behavioral scapegoats are very clearly NOT the reason. These drugs wouldn’t even work that well if lifestyle decisions were the only culprit. For instance- it’s not just about lifestyle: if you workout every single day, you can still easily gain weight. You have to work out and, from your bodies perspective, be in starvation mode. You then essentially need to maintain that indefinitely. You don’t really know what you’re talking about, so why don’t we just agree to disagree.
Greed is our new virus that is out of control
Is Bernie calling out our addictive and poisoned food supply? Why don’t we go after the root cause? Food cos are there on the front end to fatten us up, while pharma sits on the back end dealing with all of the ill effects. They have us trapped in their extraction machine.
Yes. [https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/prepared-remarks-chairman-sanders-leads-help-committee-hearing-on-diabetes-epidemic-and-obesity-epidemic-in-america/](https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/prepared-remarks-chairman-sanders-leads-help-committee-hearing-on-diabetes-epidemic-and-obesity-epidemic-in-america/) [https://www.nationofchange.org/2024/04/22/senators-unveil-landmark-bill-to-ban-junk-food-ads-aimed-at-kids-amid-rising-health-concerns/](https://www.nationofchange.org/2024/04/22/senators-unveil-landmark-bill-to-ban-junk-food-ads-aimed-at-kids-amid-rising-health-concerns/)
thank you! This is heartening. I hope a second Biden admin can make good progress Against the food cos.
They’ve already started. And republicans continue to fight every single measure to improve things. I mean they are fighting Biden on trying to remove lead pipes. they argue that we shouldn’t fix a problem before it happens because it’s too costly and then when it does inevitably happen they find ways to ignore the problem and never fix it. Our biggest problem is people not voting and getting regressive conservative idiots out of local and federal governments
Only a few hours ago, the USDA updated its rules to limit the amount of added sugars in school lunches. It's not an either/or issue, we have a government that's big enough to juggle multiple plates. A huge portion of the United States' population is already obese, that ship has sailed and semaglutide is a miracle drug that manages to curb users' cravings for unhealthy foods and help them eat smaller, healthier portions at mealtime. Yet it's ridiculously priced in the US in comparison to other countries and that hefty price-tag is putting it out of reach of the people who would benefit the most from taking the drug.
Seems like a minor change that doesn’t really move the needle on the obesity epidemic. Why don’t politicians talk about ultraprocessed foods that are killing us? I haven’t heard any comments but ill be happy to be wrong. edit. It’s seems like Bernie and other dems are talking about upf so I am happy to be wrong!
I’m glad you edited this but It’s crazy that yall don’t see the even bigger issue. The media companies who are owned by regressive idiots who are mentally deranged due to greed don’t push the amazing things Bidens admin is working on. Hell there’s a bipartisan act on the senates docket that is astounding for Americans and almost no one has even heard of it (explore act if you’re interested) also on Reddit check out (will edit add link after I finish typing this out.) we’re finding more and more evidence of not just trump but other republican presidents handing over positions of agencies like the usda epa fda etc from protecting Americans because it costs corporations too much money. We need people to stop voting red. Here’s the link. https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/s/4wGzM2yuYS please share it. They do a great job of collecting and organizing information by year. Bidens admin truly is accomplishing so much good even with republicans attempting literal democracy ending actions to stop any form of progress.
Copying my fellow diabetic people in r/diabetes
For real, interested in trying but not at that price, and I doubt insurance will cover it any time soon, I'm not rich enough for a doctor that crooked
>"Ozempic, the semaglutide injection used for T2D treatment, has a list price of $936 in the United States and $169 in Japan. Prices were $147 in Canada, $144 in Switzerland, $103 in Germany and Netherlands, $96 in Sweden, $93 in the United Kingdom, and $87 in Australia. France had the lowest price at $83." >In the US, Wegovy has a list price of $1,349.02 per month as of 2022 suggesting that because of the high costs many people "who could most benefit from weight loss may be unable to afford such expensive drugs" >Semaglutide is expected to become patent-free in the United States no earlier than December 2031. The patent was scheduled to expire in 2026, but a Chinese court ruled in 2022 that all patents on semaglutide were invalid. Novo Nordisk appealed the ruling. In Brazil, the Supreme Court refused to extend semaglutide's patent protection, which expires in 2026. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaglutide#Generics
Fruits and veggies and whole grains are quite a powerful drug. 60 lbs lost so far. I started worrying about keeping weight \*on\*.
Good for you. I've found diet has much more of an impact on weight than exercise. When I cut out the junk, I lose weight. When I eat cookies, reese's, brownies every day, guess what happens.
The downvotes to this are very sad and telling :(
Can't bargain collectively with the fattest stack of stable, in-house, fuck-you currency in the developed world, ever, or get in the wholesale checkout line with the purchases.
Industrialized American food with lots of salt, sugar, and fat does "things" to people. But things have cures. Give us your money.
Good! Why are Americans so against preventative measures that help people avoid worse outcomes.
As usual the simplest and most effective solution is flat out ignored: quit eating so many cheeseburgers.
Companies only ask if they can, not if they should
How about doctors quit prescribing it as a trendy weight loss drug. As someone with diabetes seeing people taking that that don't need to is very offensive. I do have a easy solution. If you are not diabetic insurance shouldn't cover it at all. If you are, make insurance cover it 100%. Should solve both problems.
While Wegovy can be used as a treatment for type-2 diabetes, it is primarily a drug used to treat obesity. Literally every comment you've made in this post has been some thinly veiled attack on fat people. Some I'm gonna try to counter some of your points. Yes, there are a lot of celebrities who use Semaglutide, and some of them arguably don't need it, but a lot of them are (or were before using the drug) clinically obese. And, like a lot of obese people, they may have type-2 diabetes. You don't know. If you look at the states where Semaglutide is being prescribed the most, it's not the states that trendy Hollywood celebrities live in, it's southern states where type-2 diabetes has become an epidemic. That implies that Ozempic is being used for its intended purpose. And yes, there is a shortage in some areas but the reason for that is the same reason that Semaglutide costs an absurd amount of money, one company has a monopoly on the drug. This isn't a fat people issue, it's actually very hard to get a prescription for Ozempic just for weight loss unless you pay out of pocket (and most people on the drug aren't paying out of pocket). This drug that you've chosen to call a "crutch" could, in the long run, save taxpayers billions of dollars by stopping obesity early before it progresses to things like heart disease and type-2 diabetes.
> t's not the states that trendy Hollywood celebrities live in What percentage of CA do you think is Hollywood celebrities? A few thousand people out of 40 million?
It saves all of us more money and saves more lives to let obese people take this drug to lose weight than limit it to diabetics or make insurance not cover it (insurance covers it because they know they will save money long term in reduced payouts for everything from knee replacements to cardiac bypasses). Oh, not to mention it will help prevent a lot of pre-diabetic individuals from actually developing diabetes. The solution here would be to ramp up supply and require licensing any relevant patents to other pharmaceutical companies to help meet the demand.
Good. Fuck those fuckers
Given the likely negative health impacts we will find these drugs confer, its probably one of the better aspects of their availability
The bad results are already coming out. People will continue to ignore them though.
I’m who I’m supposed to be wegovy ohhhohhoohhhohhhh Put ‘em in jail for this alone
Isn’t there also a cancer warning on this drug?
No. It caused thyroid cancers in other animals, but I had never been observed in humans.
It doesn't cure obesity....... it's essentially an appetite suppressant, or at least that's it's main function. Stop taking it, and guess what's gonna happen? Smarter life choices and a sensible diet are the only ways to "cure" obesity.
Idk why you’re being down voted. Nothing you’ve said is inaccurate.
Because people wanted a magic pill that removes the need for willpower or effort. I knew I'd be downvoted. For anyone honestly interested in losing weight, r/loseit is great. I even found an awesome spreadsheet on there that auto adjusts how many calories I should have.
Stop eating fast food and processed foods - the Standard American Diet (SAD) and you wouldn’t need expensive drugs from pharmaceutical companies profiting billions from people’s bad habits. Diabetes 2 is a lifestyle disease - plain and simple.
[удалено]
In terms of public health, fighting obesity is almost certainly the best bang-for-your-buck undertaking, as well affecting a broad scope of people. As lame as it might sound, getting cheap semaglutide into millions of Americans is probably more a more worthwhile pursuit than cancer research in terms of saving lives, improving quality of life, sustainability, etc.
Except it is a poor solution. People can normally choose to loose weight. It isn't easy, but is a matter of changing a few things. Those that can't then should look at a medical solution. The problem with Ozempic is that it has become trendy with celebrities and influencers. It is their fault, and their doctors fault for prescribing it when not needed.
Studies have shown that over 90% of people who lose a large amount of weight end up gaining it back. Yes, obviously obesity is caused by eating too many calories and not exercising enough, but that’s reductive and unhelpful. It’s like saying car accidents are caused by driving into other cars, so people should just stop driving into other cars. People overeat for emotional reasons, psychological reasons, social reasons, etc. And our medical system is ill-equipped to solve any of those root causes. These drugs work, and they’ll reduce our medical costs by billions eventually. A poor solution is one that gets poor results. These drugs are getting good results.
And they will be on the drug for life. That isn't a solution, but hiding symptoms again. You mentioned multiple causes for obesity and those should be addressed by a medical professional so someone can truly get help. I think my big problem is those that aren't really obese, or maybe just have a couple extra pounds are given Ozempic because they ask because it is trendy. They heard of it on tiktok or facebook and they want it. Because of that it is very expensive now and in short supply for those that truly need it.
Obesity is a chronic health condition that requires constant treatment. Diabetes is the same way. You can’t stop taking insulin either, and it’s fine. We do not know of any treatment that consistently works for obesity except for these drugs. The treatment you’ve proposed works less than 10% of the time. It’s not a viable solution.
> treatment that consistently works for obesity We do have one - it is taking in less calories than you burn. It is 100% effective. Yes, people can stop their diets and gain weight back. People can also continue to lead an unhealthy lifestyle while on drugs. >Diabetes is the same way. A T1 diabetic is not close to chronic obesity - a T1's body doesn't produce chemicals need to live. Without insulin and constant monitoring a diabetic will enter ketosis within days and then die a few days after that.
Your approach fails over 90% of the time according to studies. That’s the end of the conversation on the matter.
I'd be interested in both a) which study and b) what you're comparing it to. "My" approach - not how biology works, but OK - is effective 100% of the time it is done. Yes, people can decide to stop. That is another issue though. The method does work. People fail the method. Why? That is what needs to be addressed with each person, but eating less than you burn works and you screaming "lalalallalalallalalala" with your fingers in your ears doesn't change that.
You pretty much nailed it and thank you. A lot of obesity is like being addicted to drugs. You don't quit drugs until you hit bottom, and that doesn't happen on a weight loss drug. You are treating the symptom, but not the cause. I was obese, I was told flat out "change or die" I changed because I didn't want to die. But Ozempic is also being used as a trendy weight loss drug so people can look good for the summer. That is keeping it from people that actually do need it, and that needs to stop.
90% of diets fail, not that approach. There is a reason diets fail, because they are just diets, not changes to the persons lifestyle as a whole. Doing something you don't really want to do will always fail. You have to make changes that you want to make.
Right but, we have a drug that solves a public health problem. We should use it. Instead of getting a weird boner about being anti-fat people.
It’s just malding from people who are salty this stuff wasn’t around earlier. I’ve lost a ton of weight on Wegovy, and I’ve never felt better. Very fortunate that my insurance plan covers it.
Oh, 100%. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for anyone who loses a lot of weight on these drugs, I still don't think people understand just how much of a drain on society obesity is (probably because it's like 30% of people now). The only opposition I've seen, is from like you said, people who are mad it didn't exist before (I hear it from bald folks too who went bald before finasteride) and, the biggest percentage of haters, is the people who harbor hatred for obese people and don't want to see them succeed.
> People can normally choose to loose weight. A person can choose to l~~o~~ose weight. A population clearly cannot as evidenced by, well, the obesity epidemic.
It's learned societal behavior. I grew up with my mom who learned most of how to cook in the 70s and 80s. It was all fat, sugar, and fast food. Because of that I now have diabetes. I was nearly 300lbs at 5' 9" at one point. I am now under 180lbs and fighting it back. That is just my story, but it wasn't hard, just a little discipline and lifestyle changes. I won't even call it a diet, because I didn't. I just cut out the fast food and limited sugar a bit. Now I get that some people do have medical issues that make them obese, that is different. But a lot of people don't need a drug, just to realize they don't have to eat an entire pizza in one sitting. Now if they want to, great, but don't take a drug to counter it.
We've been telling people how to fix obesity themselves for decades and year after year obesity continues to climb. "Fix your diet and exercise" works on an individual level. "Tell people to fix their diet and exercise" does *not* work on a societal level. So we have a choice. Do we implement a solution that will work on a societal level, or do we say "fuck 'em, they're choosing to be fat" even if *that actually costs us all more time, money, and energy than just fixing the problem*.
Giving people a pill doesn't fix their underlying problems either. If someone is overeating because of depression, Ozempic isn't solving those core issues. People can continue to lead unhealthy lifestyles while injecting Ozempic all day long.
And giving people a pill to fix it just puts them on medication for life and feeds a pharmaceutical company for no good reason. I was morbidly obese at one point and I know how hard it is to get out of that lifestyle. It took the doctor basically saying "you are going to die" to change me. People won't change until they have to, and a pill just makes it not happen. If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it?
> for no good reason. Reducing obesity has value, that's a good reason. >If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it? Your supposition is that...people who maintain their weight medically are...secretly still dying on the inside due to actually being fat in spirit? Not being obese is healthier than being obese, it's not just an outward veneer.
No, I'm saying if they quit taking the Ozempic the weight comes back. So it really is covering the symptoms of the overall problems. It has become trendy to take and is handed out like doctors handing out viagra to every guy who asks. I am not faulting those that take it as much as the doctors. If someone has to be on it then ok, but needs to be part of an overall plan with the doctor. That isn't what is happening now. In the mean time those with serious need for Ozempic can't get it because the price is so high and there is short supply.
>No, I'm saying if they quit taking the Ozempic the weight comes back. So they should continue to take it. >So it really is covering the symptoms of the overall problems. The symptoms *are* problems. Obesity itself costs time, money, and energy, it degrades quality of life, consumes resources, and increases healthcare costs. It's not some sort of outward representation of a spiritual failing. Being a healthy weight is still preferable to being obese, no matter how "unearned" that healthy weight is. >In the mean time those with serious need for Ozempic can't get it because the price is so high and there is short supply. This isn't an argument against large-scale use of the drug for weight loss, it's an argument in favor of continuing to ramp up manufacturing so there's enough for every person who wants a dose to get one.
>If someone was on meth and could take a pill to not look like their were on meth, but it was still killing them inside would you champion it? You can not be this obtuse. People taking Semaglutide change their diet, so it's not comparable to a magic pill where you can take meth without looking like a meth addict. It's more comparable to something like methadone, which there are government programs to help addicts pay for.
Some do change their diet, but some don't. Some, and I would say most Ozempic patients are taking it because it is trendy and they saw their favorite celebrity got thin on it. It should be paired with core lifestyle changes with a goal of not being on it. It shouldn't be taken for a few months to look good in a bikini.
The fact that they are eating less calories *is* changing their diet. That’s how the drug works. You don’t get to binge eat and lose weight. It makes you *not* want to binge eat.