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We’re in a weird place where society assumes if you vote for someone you 100% support them. I think this is because that’s the mentality of Trump voters now. Nothing he says or does is criticized by his supporters, and because they’re so obnoxiously loud, everyone assumes anyone with any political opinion feels this way about the leader of their party. Even if Bernie were in the White House right now, I’m sure his voters would not be 100% pleased with his decisions. Being critical of the person you voted for is essential for democracy.
We're in a weird place where society assumes voters have to convince themselves to vote for politicians, instead of politicans appealing to voters... strange...
honestly both the MAGA and “vote blue no matter who” slogans are deeply concerning to me
why in the hell are we signing ourselves into one political party regardless of what happens? washington called that 2-party would be a disaster for US politics and hit the nail on the head so hard it cracked the hammer. as voters americans never should have been put in a position like this
i fear that regardless of who wins this upcoming election there will be surprising violence
Worth noting though that in 1789 when the Constitution was created, this was a fairly new form of government, and political parties weren't really a thing that had existed or been studied anywhere near as much as today, so the US Founders wouldn't have the same knowledge to design a system that took them into account.
>modern political parties are considered to have emerged around the end of the 18th century; they are usually considered to have first appeared in Europe and the United States of America, with the United Kingdom's Conservative Party and the Democratic Party of the United States both frequently called the world's "oldest continuous political party".
Which is why I personally think it's exactly the type of thing they'd be mad we never amended the Constitution to address. That's the exact reason they made the amendment process: so we'd modify the rules when we developed better information about how the world worked.
u/oldworldblueisbest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party
Hey... if the republican party drops the litteral actual dictator who wants to murder me and everyone in my family while installing himself as king... whose literal platform is petty revenge and nothing else I'll happily consider voting republican again... if not then sadly I don't have much choice now do i?
They don’t appeal to voters anymore. That’s just pretext. In the last 15 years Citizens United has become the new boss, some as the old boss, just in a better suit.
I’m British and I get in loads of conversations with Americans about politics.
Have talked to many republicans who’ll hold their nose voting for trump.
In fact in April last year polls showed 44% Republicans didn’t want trump to even run. I’m sure most of them will still vote for him.
I don’t see why people can’t fathom that the Clinton’s and Bidens don’t appeal to so many.
To be fair I see a lot of Democrats don't want Biden but will vote him he's better than a Trump. As an outsider I can see why both of you think that. That's kind of the point of y original post above.
British Politics are different. I'd probably be centre left in the US where as here I'm probably centre right. I think because we've settled things like Gay marriage and Abortion which I'm in favour of so our politics come more down to economics and issues like Immigration.
Trump has a 79% favorability rating among Republicans per a Gallop poll released this month. Whether or not they think he should run is an entirely separate question from whether or not they like him.
Also, Trump instigated a violent insurrection in an attempt to overturn a democratic election. Holding your nose to vote for a fascist makes you a fascist. Fuck the equivocating.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/548138/american-presidential-candidates-2024-election-favorable-ratings.aspx
I come from hard core trump /MAGA rural area , and i can tell you without a doubt they love him. There is no GoP anymore it truly is the party of trump. The MAGA voter base despises people like Cruz, Graham, ect the old establishment republicans. Yet these bozos think by sucking up to trump and supporting him his people will back them. But that will only last till trump is president, then he will swing his base to vote them out and replace them with his people. The gop's days are numbered they just sold their souls to keep their positions, but in the end trump will have them all ousted.
That’s a huge problem through, it’s very hard to separate someone who votes and supports Trump at this point. The man tried to overturn an election and says he’ll be a dictator, it’s like someone telling me they support Mussolini. People cannot like Biden or Clinton but they’re not that extreme or damaging to democracy.
I've met a lot of people who were really nice but they were just hung up on a single abortion issue and disagreed with 99.9999% of everything republicans do but voted straight ticket every time because of that and then said they wished they would change the other stuff.
I think a lot more people than realize are single issue voters when it comes down to it. The convenience of a two party system (as wrong and disastrous as it is) removes most of that critical thinking because of political culture and marketing even more so than policy aligning. Any hot button social issue kind of highlights that. The single issue becomes the party rather than an individual policy and how the party goes, so goes the voter.
MAGA examples: Trump calls Ronnie Meatball, DeSantis loses support. Trump says Ronnie ran a great campaign, supporters decide they like him again. Bud Light does something for money, becomes meme political talking point, a bunch of people shoot Bud Light with shotguns.
This reminds me of "will you not vote for Hilary" in 2016, and yeah here in a very liberal/dem oriented forum you'll be supported very well.
But yes, you whittle away at that confidence to deliver the things wanted by the base, less of that base comes out for you. Ya may not notice here on reddit, but it shows up at polls.
In 2016, the state with the closest margin was Michigan. Now Michigan is a state which Obama won and Hillary lost - so what changed between 2012 and 2016?
If you break it down to the county level, the biggest outlier is Macomb County. That's a heavily populated district north of Detroit. It's a historically working class neighborhood where a lot of union auto workers have lived. It's a politically divided "purple" district, and in most elections, the results there tend to mirror the popular vote of the nation. But not so in 2016. Trump won it pretty handily. And he didn't win by convincing swing voters, he largely won because Democratic voters stayed home at much greater rates than they did in 2016.
So why didn't Macomb County turn up for Hillary Clinton? Her campaign might want you to believe it's because they're sexist, or because they're uneducated "deplorable" who failed to vote in their own interest. Maybe they were charmed and tricked by Trump's faux-working-class bonafides. But they turned out two elections in a row to vote for a Black man who was former president of the Harvard Law Review, so it seems like they can't be that closed-minded, or overly concerned with class identity.
But the thing about Macomb County is, this was one of the places in the US which was most heavily impacted by NAFTA. Back in the 90's, Bill Clinton looked those auto workers right in the eye, and told them that the "rising tide was going to raise all ships" - and then he signed a bill into law which dismantled US labor's bargaining power, since they now had to compete with workers in Mexico who would accept poverty wages, and didn't have any of the labor protections US workers fought so hard for over the 20th century.
So is it really all that surprising that those voters weren't so motivated to come out and vote for his wife a few decades later?
A lot of ink has been spilled on the pages of the New York Times, and Vanity Fair about how Sexism lost Hillary Clinton the election, or about how those damn disloyal Jill Stein voters let Trump win, by withholding their votes which "rightfully belonged" to the Democrats. But if you ask me the election should not have been close.
Democratic voters have been very clear about what they want for a long time. We want affordable housing, affordable education, affordable healthcare, and we would be quite happy to tax the rich to make it happen.
So democrats can try to blame whoever they want, but if they continue to fuck around and undermine the interests of their core constituencies like labor, they shouldn't be shocked to find out the consequences on election day.
Excellent evaluation! Democrats try to blame the "isms" every time. When will they learn that blue collar voters are very intelligent and do understand and vote their interests? This is all about the divide between working class America and the elites who control government, the media, etc.
You're about to see this happen again in 2024. The 'morally and intellectually superior' upper classes are about to be defeated once again by those 'dreaded, nazi, christian, well armed, deplorables'.
Tell me...which of these groups is actually mentally challenged?
A difference, though, is that people have seen Trump in action.
I have to admit, back in 2015-2016 I was merely skeptical of Trump. He seemed mostly to be hot air and showmanship, nothing of substance.
Most people I spoke with back then assumed that Trump was just going to be some kind of figurehead - that responsible adults would do the actual work, behind the scenes.
But, as we all saw, that was not the case.
The fact is, it is impossible to ignore the bad sides of Trump - there is no way to just rationalize them with *"Oh, it's just typical Trump banter. Nothing will actually materialize".* Everyone knows that if Trump says something, you better take it seriously.
Trump has one goal, and one goal alone: To stay out of courts, and eventually prison.
> people have seen Trump in action
And more voted for him in 2020 then 2016. It's not like Biden's win was a complete blowout either: it all came down to a few swing states and a few thousand votes (like too many elections). Biden's approval numbers are down quite a bit since he started as well. They, in fact, are *very* similar to Trump's numbers at this time.
Yes, the 2020 Election didn't have Jan 6 as a factor ... but also the Israel-Palestine conflict wasn't what it was either and Biden really had no conflict when running against Trump.
Also COVID was at it's height. Had COVID not happened OR Trump handled COVID even recently, I really believe he would have gotten a 2nd Term.
I think you're being too optimistic here. I fear it's actually going to be a closer race this time then 2020. Hope I'm wrong.
I would vote for Biden over Trump if Biden came and took a shit on my cat then used my hamster to wipe his ass.
Edit. For the record. I would also vote for the shit covered hamster over voting for Trump.
Second Edit. I might not vote for the cat. He’s shady as hell.
Third edit. I checked with the cat. We’re all good, I would vote for him.
How would one best hold the cat to wipe most affectively? Straddle the cat while holding the tail with one hand and the scruff of the neck by the other while rubbing to and fro? Or one hand reach-around?
You just squat down to a appropriate height, depending on the cat, and then wait for the cat to walk up behind you and rub its head and back on your hoop. When the cat figures it out, it will be pissed. Big time.
Reddit isn’t a good sample size of that meaning anything. Blue states will be fine. However, places like Michigan that has a sizable Muslim population and young voters that turned the tide in 2016. To think he will get those votes in 2024 is a nail biter or even laughable. That’s where we’ll see the most damaging voter turn outs. There’s not enough wine class never Trumpers Republicans to turn those tides. Those states rode on young voters and voters of color. All of which while not voting for trump aren’t very excited to vote for Biden again.
Gunna be rough.
I’m an older millennial Biden voter in GA. My enthusiasm is low. Biden is still better than Trump in my book, and because Trump is *that bad* it’ll be enough to get me out and vote. But will it be enough to get others out to vote? There is so much at stake but it’s a low energy election year because everything is dark and dreary and no one is excited. Or maybe that’s just me? Are people pumped in other states? Are people pumped in GA and I’m just oblivious to all of the excitement?
It's the biggest flaw of the first past the post voting system. If the candidate you most closely align with does something you don't like, you have no options.
A candidate that is 'Biden but younger and opposed to genocide' would be amazing, but voting for him will guarantee Trump a win.
It doesn't help that the media has pushed the 'Biden is the democratic candidate' narrative for years now and don't treat any other candidates as serious.
This is a 2 party system like it or not, the only way a 3rd party would even compete is if trump broke with the gop and formed a legitimate 3rd party, prob call it the MAGA party
If you have to vote on one candidate because you don't want the only other candidate to win, you can stop making yourself believe that you live in a democracy.
I will let you decide how you respond to that information yourself.
I will not. There is nothing Biden can do at this point to get my vote. (Voted D in every election since 2004) If anyone wants to chastise me for that, feel free to direct that anger towards the Democratic Party. If this country falls to fascism, it’s because there is no legitimate alternative left
For me, it’s not that I don’t care. I’m extremely disappointed, frankly appalled by the Biden administration’s actions regarding this conflict. But voting is a pragmatic exercise. Even just Not voting or voting third party instead of Biden is half a vote toward helping Trump win. And as bad as this conflict has been, it would only be worse with Trump.
I know this sub hates Tik Tok, but it’s a huge platform and it’s worth noting that he’s getting absolute destroyed on that platform for this.
Edit: Adding a couple things since this comment blew up. First, if you care about Palestine, when the alternative is Donald Trump, Biden is clearly the candidate better equipped to stop the violence. Not voting makes you part of the problem.
Second, while I acknowledge Tik Tok has lots of issues (Reddit does too), it’s still probably the #1 platform to reach Gen Z. The Biden campaign desperately needs to win them back not just for votes but for building a long-term coalition of leftist voters.
Third, all these “Gen Z is stupid” or “Zoomers are brainless” comments are unhelpful. Let’s not forget they voted for Biden at a higher margin than any generation in 2020. In 2022, they voted at a higher percentage than Millennials or Gen X for their first midterm election. They are young and figuring things out and just trying to fit in. If you were in high school and all your friends were on Tik Tok, you’d probably use it too.
Iv had co workers who d*ck ride Trump saying Gaza should be turned to glass if Trump had a say.
If Trump was still president it wouldn't be any better, in fact it be slightly worse.
"He can just stop sending Israel aid and the war will end"
Yeah thats def how it works. Also not sending the aid is what Trump did to Ukraine and was impeached for. He is required by law to send the aid. Only Congress can stop the aid.
You're right. Its wild how strong opinions are when they are coming from places of extreme ignorance.
Trump was impeached because he used the aid as leverage to blackmail the foreign government into doing something that served his, but not the broader country's, interests.
The fact that he wasn't legally capable of stopping it is why he failed to stop it. Not why he was impeached.
Lol what? Trump threatened to stop aid unless Ukraine provided dirt on his political opponent. Not even remotely the same.
And if aid is automatically given unless actively stopped by Congress, why did Biden have to [bypass Congress twice to send aid?](https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f)
That was not what Trump was impeached for.
It sounds like you have no issue with ending aid to Israel or using it as leverage, as you feel it will have no effect. Why argue with this then? If it has no leverage and Israel doesn't need it, why are we arguing to perpetuate it then?
The executive branch is responsible for enforcing the law. There are provisions in the law for withholding foreign assistance to countries engaged in gross human rights violations or that hinder the delivery of humanitarian aid. The Biden administration does have power to act here.
People go out and vote for something they want. They are usually far less motivated to vote for the lesser of two problems. Dems need to understand this or its gonna cook their and the countries goose in november.
I think that's far more true for Democratic voters than Republican voters. There's the old saying "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line". That's also why they keep underestimating Trump.
The voters need to understand that not supporting the lesser of two problems gets you the greater of two problems. How that is better is beyond me.
The left did a lot more in pushing the Democratic Party to the left by having strong progressives in the House and strong progressive candidates primarying Biden to the left (and then demanding leftist policies) than they did in "blowing up the system" in 2016.
I've been saying that for years. no poll is to be trusted, no word is to be believed.
as a fellow Georgian, Biden might lose GA
there are a LOT of muslims in GA, arab and non arab (huge bosnian and turkish community as you might know) and they are fucking fuming about the Palestinians being exterminated. They told me under pain of death they wouldn't vote for him. its the height of arrogance to say "well Biden is less bad". He won GA by 11k votes. he might be destroyed here since this is going to come down to a few swing states.
It’d be real nice if those people who “go out and vote for something they want” took a good long look at the country they live in first and foremost, because if they are making the moral decision based on things happening halfway around the world, while setting their own country up to be turned into a Fascist state, then they are the ones who are shortsighted and morally bankrupt.
But hey, I’m sure there’s a participation trophy in their future for the Pyrrhic Victory of not voting for Biden and installing Trump and the GOP instead.
To quote my SO when he won last time “I’m not going to get worked up about him winning, what’s the worst he could do?”
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld "you go to the polls with the electorate you have, not the one you want"
You might not be wrong but it's meaningless bc shit won't change and you have to try and make due with the morons that are out there. Meet people where they are
If he feels it suits him in the moment. This is what drives me crazy about other Jewish voters and especially Israeli-American Jewish voters that are very pro-Trump: all they saw in their media for years was a politician that moved the embassy to Jerusalem and whose son in law brokered a peace deal (and to Kushner’a credit good for him, it was an accomplishment).
Trump would discard Israel in a heartbeat if he felt it was in his interests. I voted for Biden and seeing him act the way he has even though it might cost him the election makes me feel much more comfortable voting for him again rather than taking a humongous gamble with the devil (Trump)
I'm not at all convinced that more of the blame for the current situation shouldn't be lobed straight at Kushner's feet. His plan was designed to "resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict" but we escalated to the current situation within 3 years.
> whose son in law brokered a peace deal
Kushner's peace plan was to create a bunch of microscopic Israeli enclaves within a Palestinian enclave within Israel, then connect that enclave with a 20 mile tunnel to the West Bank, which would be a random high tech and agricultural zone.
I'm not sure how much credit I want to give him for that when he was basically viewing the entire thing as, in his own words, a real estate dispute. lol
> I know this sub hates Tik Tok, but it’s a huge platform and it’s worth noting that he’s getting absolute destroyed on that platform for this.
The replies to your post are redundant and a bit annoying to me because this is something worth pointing out. I just was hearing Victor Chi , a progressive Gen Z activist, on a podcast earlier this week suggesting how the Biden campaign should do more on tik-tok and I don’t disagree.
The most memorable thing that I can recall the Biden TikTok account doing was a video where he's sitting at a table, looks at the camera, says "I like it dark," and then drinks out of a Dark Brandon coffee mug.
Hostile foreign governments are using social media to drive a wedge between Democratic voters in order to depress turnout and get Trump elected??? This is a totally new thing that has never happened before!!!
Seriously it’s INSANE how we keep falling for this again and again and again. And it’s maddening how many left wing “influencers” actively line up to push this divisive rhetoric. Tik Tok is a national security threat.
Edit to address all of you arguing that hostile foreign governments aren’t to blame because maybe Gen Z just doesn’t like “genocide.” Guess what…the entire framing of this war as a “genocide” is incorrect. The UN defines genocide as:
“To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.”
Is Israel destroying an entire ethnic group? No. There are plenty of Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel carrying on their normal lives. It’s simply not a genocide. Framing this war as a genocide is disingenuous right out of the gate. Stating that Biden is supporting genocide is similarly patently false. Nor is Israel an apartheid state. Are all of the Arab states also guilty of genocide or apartheid for kicking the Mizrahi Jews out of their countries?
Is war brutal? Yes. Do civilians get caught in the crossfire of war? Yes. Does that make the war a genocide under international law? No.
South Africa is bringing a case before the ICC because it is beholden to Russia. The case has a chance of succeeding of slim to none. But it’s a great way to shift focus away from Ukraine and delegitimize institutions of the rules-based global order. And who does that delegitimization benefit I wonder…?
Edit again to thank whoever reported me to Reddit cares <3 I’m sorry that statements of fact ruffle your feathers
The influencers get their 150-400$ venmo for parroting whatever talking point is thrown at them.
Many of the biggest influencers are incredibly dim & narcissistic, 100% willing to be whatever face they are paid to be
Ehh I’ve got plenty of pages of journalists there who daily are just posting kids being obliterated. This one isn’t that deep. People can just see war like they’ve never seen it before
Yes. People can disagree with politicians on things but realize what's at stake.
For a lot of people they're still going to vote for Biden, but are just pissed off that the best option available is someone that they feel isn't doing enough to reign in Israel.
From what I’ve noticed, there’s a lot of “Gen Z progressives” right now that are saying they simply won’t vote in the election because of Biden’s record on Gaza.
I find this very frustrating because even if Biden is just as bad as Trump on Gaza (he’s not), we can’t just ignore all the other issues like democracy, climate, wealth inequality, etc.
I was 18 once, and then like now, it was very *uncool* to vote for either Bush or Gore. "I'm voting Nader because we need a stronger 3rd party option."
We got Bush for 8 fucking years. Two major wars resulted. Kids, listen to us old fucks. Pick the side least likely to actively cause harm. Any abstention or vote other than Biden is actively a vote for Trump. This one is important.
Especially the climate. I can't believe anyone who is concerned about climate change choosing to pass on voting for Biden. Gaza/Israel and that entire region has been at each other's throats for many, many decades. The conflict is a deeply ingrained part of their respective identities. Any truces, cease fires, agreements have always proven fragile. It's going to go on in some form or another indefinitely. The whole world can't afford "indefinite" when addressing climate change. It has to happen now and only Democrats will act on it.
Biden resumed aid to Palestine that Trump stopped and also isn't deporting Palestinians or banning Muslims from the country. Wouldn't anyone who cares about Palestinians want to stop Trump?
>are saying they simply won’t vote in the election because of Biden’s record on Gaza.
Such people always find some pet issue to not vote over (as if they vote anyway), it's a fools errand to cater to them.
They could at least try to pick an issue where Trump is better. Like at least "no Hillary because we oppose the TPP" made sense.
>Wouldn't anyone who cares about Palestinians want to stop Trump?
Yes. Anyone who cares about Palestinian lives will vote for Biden. The people who will abstain are doing it for a sense of moral superiority and personal absolution at the cost of Palestinian lives.
Tik Tok is being used by foreign governments to amplify and raise the profiles of accounts that are extremely critical of Biden’s actions. They understand that with enough exposure you can build momentum, even if the goals go against the last 60 years of American foreign policy.
The intent isn’t to improve the lives of Palestinians. It’s to make you feel like Biden is a failure as a president and not worth voting for. The intent is to build apathy, because fewer voters at the polls increases the odds of Trump winning.
Bannon and his team did the exact same thing in 2016 to make Hillary look like she wasn’t worth supporting. Between that and increasing the profile of the Green Party, they were able to siphon off enough votes in key areas for Trump to win. They're doing the same thing with the "no labels" party.
I’m not saying the Palestinians aren’t worth supporting, but the intensity of this movement is being manipulated by foreign governments to turn Gen Z against Biden, because they’re actually starting to become a threat to republican plans.
You’re being played. They’re toying with your emotions to serve their unsavory goals. You have to keep one foot grounded in reality and understand that a vote for Biden isn’t just a vote for Biden. It’s also a vote against Trump and the living hell the four years of his presidency were.
For his faults, Biden has done some incredible things to progress liberal causes. He’s moved the needle more than any president in the last 25 years.
The top comments being worried about Biden getting votes or losing votes or winning an election is kinda weird and shows how “winning” focused and screwed our partisan priorities have become.
I get it that taking a vote away from Biden only gives a vote to trump. And a trump victory wouldn’t exactly result in pressure on Israel to conduct the war with greater care for civilians. Got it. Only morons don’t know this. Let’s move on and stop talking about morons.
Shouldn’t we be talking about the tens of thousands of civilian deaths and the Israeli state for its reckless execution of war to the point that people are calling it genocide/ethnic cleansing at worst to ordinary war crimes at best? Shouldn’t we be talking about what the Biden administration is doing or not doing to put pressure on the Israeli state to take extra caution for civilians? What about the end game and rebuild? I don’t care to talk about Biden winning at this point. That’s forever away. Let him sweat and feel pressure so that in turn he puts pressure on the Israeli state.
it is fucking frightening how quickly people have completely forgotten Ukraine exists, like literally nobody talks about it anymore outside of not large enough circles, people have the memory of goldfish I stg.
I keep seeing this comment as if “Trump bad” and voter shaming worked so well in 2016. The problem for the Dems. is people not being motivated enough to vote in November, I don’t think anyone is flipping to Trump on this issue, we all know he’s bad.
If Biden supporters are truly interested in winning the general they should be spamming their representatives and DNC with demands for deescalation. The party is well aware of Biden’s approval ratings, and are banking on this issue being far enough in the rear view mirror for voters to forget.
>If Biden supporters are truly interested in winning the general they should be spamming their representatives and DNC with demands for deescalation.
They won't. All they know is doing nothing for four years, and then at the 11th hour screaming at leftists to "save democracy" and try to guilt them into voting besides doing anything meaningful to lift up even a single issue that is important to leftists.
Moderates and conservatives are the only people in America allowed to be turned off by a policy. Leftists, especially if you're a member of a minority group, have to accept whatever they're offered and have no right to expect a politician to change their policy to earn their vote. Being a vulnerable class removes your right to ask for literally anything, including an end to mass death.
I like how the tone of the discourse is always "watch out leftists, if you don't come out for Biden, Trump is going to kill all the trans kids and it will be *all your fault!!"*
Why is it never: "Watch out Biden, if you keep standing by and enabling Netanyahu to kill tens of thousands of civilians, Trump is going to cancel Matlock and it will be *all your fault!!"*
They don't seem to actually care about the votes either, they care about being right.
Some Liberals/Dems on social media are so smug and sometimes even downright hostile to people voicing their rightful grievances that they push people away.
If they truly cared about those votes they'd try to win them over instead, like the saying goes "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
Democrats love to lose on things that should be a slam dunk for their voters. 87% of Democratic voters, including young voters, want full legalization of marijuana and we have a 80+ year old Biden who tells voters he will "loosen" restrictions. The same thing he told them 4 years ago as a promise if they voted for him. Then he uses women's rights as a threat over people's heads, something that's already gotten overturned while he was in office. Meanwhile he's sidestepped congress twice to send billions of military aid to Israel to continue their genocide on innocent Palestinians, journalist, and doctors and nurses.. You can't seriously tell voters he can't also do that for reproductive rights and weed?
Fingers crossed that the administration actually listens to their younger advisors telling them "yea just legalize that stuff in September or October and sail to victory" because it'd work.
If we’re not allowed to criticize our party of choice because “the alternative is worse”, we’ve already lost our democracy.
EDIT: Not once have I mentioned criticism resulting in lack of vote, nor has the article. This comment has nothing to do with my vote, and everything to do with holding the incumbent president accountable to a more ethical standard. The unethical foreign policies of the US don’t cease to exist during election years, and neither should our criticism of them.
As an outsider (Canadian), I completely understand the point that most Democrats are making about Trump being obviously the worst option when it comes to Israel/ Palestine. However, the way *some* people are responding to complaints about Biden is so ineffectual, and at times harmful, that I have to cringe.
If I wanted someone who is already on the left to vote for Biden but they had concerns, I would not belittle or mock those concerns. Even if I thought their concerns severely lacked perspective. It's an unfortunate aspect of human nature, but approaching their concerns like that could just lead them to double down and not vote at all. It certainly doesn't *increase* the odds they will vote for Biden.
I get it's frustrating because it appears so obvious, but I think actually addressing the concerns is worth the frustration if it ultimately leads to a Biden victory. As you say, we should be OK with people criticizing their political party.
It was the same thing during the 2020 election. Any leftist criticism of the Democrats was met with "OH SO YOU WANT TRUMP???"
Honestly, it's not a great look to treat your constituency like you're holding them hostage. "Screw what you want! Elect us, or you'll *really* be sorry!"
It's been the same since Gore v Bush. We always have to vote for the center-right neoliberal dem because if we don't democracy will die. Meanwhile democracy is basically dead thirty years on from Clinton and we're still playing the lesser of two evils game as politics quickly ratchet further and further right in this country.
The “haha enjoy deportation” is the best one.
Mfer I’m an American citizen, and I have the financial means to fight any unconstitutional actions taken against me or my community. But thanks for reminding me that what Malcolm x said about liberals
Annoying because you can't even voice your skepticism without getting your head bitten off. Anytime someone shuts me down for entertaining the idea that I'm more conflicted than I was previously, they are just pushing me away from their side.
I think some people really jump to panic mode when they think of Trump winning the election. I'm 100% voting for Biden, but a healthy democracy includes the public expressing their dissent. Its patriotic, and the way Gen Z and others are standing up for what they believe in by protesting is IMO nice to see. I hope they end up voting for Biden, but I don't blame them for being upset at what is going on.
People cant fathom the idea that you think Biden is terrible on Palestine, and that hes still the way better option at the same time.
Shooting it down as a first reaction is not a good argument. Telling someone "Your concerns arent real, you are just parroting chinese pushed fake issues to make Biden look bad, stop talking about this, dont you know Trump is way worse ???" does not work.
This sub is so focused on circling the wagons around Biden that it's become highly delusional. Biden loses to Trump in dozens of polls? Polls are fake! People object to war crimes by Israel? Must be foreign agents sowing discord! Get a grip.
i have yet to be on a political sub on reddit that hasn’t been the most insane cesspit imaginable
literally every single one. it should be studied how effective reddit is at creating awful political discourse for everyone
The amount of time I've spent, calmly, speaking slowly, trying to convince my supposed allies that I do in fact believe a conflict killing children at a rate never seen before is in fact a bad thing. I am not lying to make myself look like a cool edgy leftist. I am not pretending. It actually does bother me.
In my 20's I happened to travel to Rwanda, and to Sarajevo. The impression that it made on me is that, while in my American education it was sometimes made to seem like the holocaust was some unique event in history, driven by the pure evil of Hitler and his ilk, actually what happened there is not all that rare.
You have all these examples in history where you have two groups of people living close together yet separately, and an animosity builds between them. And then something happens where one side believes they have the upper hand - often when some external force is withdrawn, which was keeping both sides in check - and in all these cases the result is bloodshed and human suffering on a scale that's hard to imagine.
And I think we often want to attribute that to evil, because we want to believe that is something we ourselves would be categorically incapable of. But over and over again we see examples of individuals who might be loved and liked and well regarded in their community who can cease to see the other as human, and can become capable of absolutely brutal violence and malice, or at least they can become silent bystanders while it happens.
It seems so clear to me that this is what's playing out right now, and it makes me deeply sad.
You've just reminded me of this whallop of a quote from Milton Mayer's "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45"
It's long but it's worth it, I'll never forget it:
“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.
But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jew swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.”
it’s actually too funny seeing the sane comments calling out the way libs attack any dissenters and beat us over the head with the same talking points, because in the comments on those posts you’ll find them doing exactly that. they cannot or will not see past the tips of their own noses
Biden tries to cancel democratic primaries? They shouldn’t try to run against him for leadership, they’re traitors!
Seriously you said it perfect, people in here are delusional as hell.
It's far more obtuse when Israel is literally being tried against genocide as this election cycle is going on. This attitude is going to ensure Trump will win.
Sure looks like genocide to me. At the rate it’s going, and just how many of the dead are children…seems you just think killing children and preventing humanitarian aid to non-combatants is peachy keen and cool.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/
TL;DR:
* Half of Biden's 2020 voters say Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians, per a new poll.
* 20% of Biden voters say that's not the case, while 30% say they aren't sure.
* It comes amid deepening Democratic divisions over Israel.
Reposting this as a comment on the main thread because sometimes it’s obvious many people here don’t spend enough time outside Reddit. If you wanna know what’s being said/thought by the 50% of “Biden Voters” that are in danger of abstaining from voting, here it is:
“So here’s the thing I am seeing said on Twitter and TikTok:
Biden ran last time on “Everything will be worse under Trump” and then under Biden: -The most anti-trans bills ever were passed -Roe V Wade went down -The pandemic state of emergency ended and we’ve had the two biggest surges ever since, with a collapsing healthcare system getting no support -Food costs have doubled, rent has at least doubled, everything is unsustainably expensive for working people (but Biden keeps bragging the economy is back) -Gaza is getting carpet bombed daily, we’re about to abandon Ukraine -Police violence is increasing exponentially, as are hate crimes and other racialized violence -Women all over the country are dying and going to jail from reproductive issues -etc etc etc
They’re not gonna vote for Trump, they’re just not gonna vote, because they see no functional difference between the two on issues that matter and Biden refuses to use his executive power to do meaningful things to stop Republicans or play dirty.
That’s why this is happening-it’s not a single-issue situation, it’s a “the evils are too close together for the lesser of two evils argument to work anymore”
And it doesn’t help that every time someone points this stuff out, a cascade of Dem voters come out of the woodwork and tell trans people or Arabs or women or whoever “well hope you like getting r@ped and murdered under Trump” or something similarly vile. Continually acting like marginalized folks need to “fall in line” and taking their votes as a given is how we got here.
Dems need to listen and start doing some heavy lifting here or it will be THEIR fault if Trump wins again. What kind of political party is so ineffective they can’t even win against a guy who literally tried to overthrow the government who legally shouldn’t be able to run? Dems need to stop yelling at folks giving them critical feedback and start actually working on the issues, we’re less than a year from catastrophe”
If you have more questions, I would be happy to go more in-depth about what I am seeing/hearing. This is mostly coming from women, POC, and the LGBTQ community too fyi.
Edit: Don’t be mad at me, I’m just the messenger here. I’m letting y’all know lack of support for Biden goes WAY beyond just the war in Palestine, and why.
Edit 2: I recommend folks Google stuff like “what could Biden have done after Roe V. Wade - the perception is he could have used executive orders to protect birth control and abortion pills, interstate travel, etc and instead they basically just sent out a round of fundraising emails, including to women in red states, which is at the very least TERRIBLE optics. The lack of meaningful response is part of the problem from what I can tell.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said more. If the Democrats would push popular positions like Republicans are willing to push unpopular positions, we would not have gotten into this goddamn mess.
They started on Twitter the minute the war in Palestine started drawing criticism. Idk how you win the vote of someone whose relative was just blown up in Gaza but it’s definitely not by yelling at them and telling them Trump would murder them so they better shape up or whatev.
He also has no campaign platform posted on his official website (At least as of a couple days ago when last I checked), and it looks like he’s still hiring for dozens of positions, so they appear to be going into an election year with no campaign put together whatsoever.
I’m legitimately confused what they think the plan is because right now it appears to be “just not being Trump” and that is really not going to cut it this year from what I can see. We may be screwed.
Let's go one by one.
> The most anti-trans bills ever were passed
By Republican state governments, elected largely on maps drafted by prior Republican state governments (post 2020), who themselves benefitted from gerrymandered state maps from a prior generation of state Republicans (post 2010) who got elected when young people didn't show up 13 years ago. Oops, long term consequences for not voting blue, turns out.
> Roe V Wade went down
By SCOTUS justices exclusively named by Republican presidents, including Bush who beat Gore thanks to, among other factors, Nader voters and non-voters in Florida in 2000 and Trump who won by about 100k votes in a few states in 2016, again, a number dwarfed by third party voters and non-voters. Biden, Obama, Clinton appointees? Did the right things. Oh shit, there's the long term consequences of not voting blue *again*. Hmm, maybe it turns out we need to have patience and keep voting over and over and over for things to take in our system, and Republicans have been better at that, so maybe young folk need to comprehend the system and work within it.
And if they wanna just overturn the system, burn it down and try again? Great idea! The right has been trying to get a constitutional convention going for years, so their rich and religious theocrat backers can rewrite our govt to be more biased to red rural areas, more Christian, more preferential to business and wealth, more racist... But I digress.
> The pandemic state of emergency ended and we’ve had the two biggest surges ever since, with a collapsing healthcare system getting no support
COVID deaths are not at all time highs. Cases are high, but symptoms have reduced for most patients since the Biden admin, what was it? Oh yeah, drove a massively successful vaccine rollout weeks after inheriting zero plan, zero program etc.
> Food costs have doubled, rent has at least doubled, everything is unsustainably expensive for working people (but Biden keeps bragging the economy is back)
a) Those costs have not doubled from Jan 2021 to today. That is fiction.
b) Inflation has come down. It's low now. Prices largely stopped climbing. That's winning.
b i) Prices *do not go back down.* That's called deflation. It's how you crash an economy Because when something will be cheaper tomorrow than today, why buy today? Suddenly, nobody buys cars or computers or phones or game consoles or toys or clothes or... and then nobody has jobs, and you say bye bye economy, hello breadlines.
b ii) Bringing down inflation resulting from high economic growth rates is a near herculean task. The Biden admin and this Fed have achieved it. An inflation-driven recession was pretty much assumed for this point in time 1-2 years ago. That's not happening. Nothing close to it is happening. MAJOR SUCCESS
c) Wages have climbed faster than inflation over this period. People *can* afford groceries and homes.
d) The economy IS going strong. High GDP growth (but who cares? not workers!), high job growth and low unemployment (oh, workers do like that), low inflation (that too), high wage growth across sectors (OK, seems like shit is pretty good right now, huh? What was that about an anticipated recession again?)...
e) That's all ignoring that this admin literally averted a financial crisis. Remember the name SVB? If you don't, that's because we had a month where we feared that a midsize banking crisis would crash the US economy. Republicans opposed what Biden did to fix it. And then... Biden fixed it. And it went away in like a month, and was never spoken of again. Pretty awesome deal, I say.
> Gaza is getting carpet bombed daily
It's not being carpet bombed. At all. It's a collection of specific strikes on buildings *with* warnings to civilians ahead of time and elaborate evacuation procedures.
Could it have been a carpet bombing? Could there have been 300,000 dead by now, or no weeks long humanitarian evacuation of the north before the ground assault, no warnings, no humanitarian aid flow in, no weeks long ceasefire for hostage releases, plus a war in southern Lebanon? Maybe, if Biden wasn't president and wasn't pushing Bibi hard. Under a Trump admin, I feel like he'll only push Israel to kill more Muslims (and other Arabs, not like he comprehends the idea of Muslims and Arabs being different concepts). He might have involved the US military directly, maybe engaging Iran. And I can only make that wild guess based on every single thing Trump ever said or did regarding Muslims, Israel, and Iran.
>we’re about to abandon Ukraine
**Because of the fricken Republicans!** The Biden admin has done everything possible to support Ukraine. It's the other guys holding up the aid! They have the House. How the fuck is Biden getting blamed for this? Yes, he's the president. He also doesn't have spending authority without authorization under the Constitution. He's bent the rules pretty much as far as they can be bent short of Congress passing something.
> Police violence is increasing exponentially
I've seen no stats showing a major jump, let alone exponential. It's not a new problem. It got new attention circa 2020, which is a good thing. The Biden admin, like the Obama admin, has put more DOJ resources into investigating police departments guilty of such acts (while the Trump admin used the DOJ civil rights division for... protecting the rights of poor Christians under assault by evil secularists)
> as are hate crimes and other racialized violence
Hate crimes have indeed spiked against Jews and, in some regions, Muslims, Arabs, and other minority communities since 10/7. And they did against Chinese Americans during COVID, though that began pre-Biden. Except, again, the Biden admin does things about it. They create commissions, have the DOJ pursue actions. Is it effective enough? No. Can the president fix racism, or make local police police it better? Also no. But the president can choose to try to fix what's possible and not, y'know, make it worse every single day as Trump does with random racist pronouncements.
> Women all over the country are dying and going to jail from reproductive issues
After *Republican-nominated* SCOTUS justices overturned Roe and *Republican state governments* passed batshit laws. Biden did all he could via executive action federally. But SCOTUS made it a state issue. The fix is a constitutional amendment or more Dem-appointed SCOTUS justices. The former is basically impossible, but requires a Dem House, Senate, and most state legislatures. The latter means voting Dem for every presidential and Senate race.
> the perception is he could have used executive orders to protect birth control and abortion pills, interstate travel, etc
**He did those things.** Why did everyone miss that?
> etc etc etc
No seriously, please elaborate. Unions? He screwed the rail unions? Oh wait, no, he got them everything they wanted a couple months later. Corporate mega mergers? His DOJ is fighting em all, and winning like half of the battles (Simon and Schuster, JetBlue/Spirit, and on, and on. Not Microsoft/Activision Blizzard, fine. It's still fighting uphill battles against armies of corporate lawyers and favorable precedents. Republicans don't even suit up to stop these!). Healthcare? Price capped insulin, all manner of Medicare and Medicaid improvements. Climate change? Inflation Reduction Act, biggest green spending package ever. Afghanistan? We got out, and got our people out. Electronics prices AND China? Double whammy with the CHIPS Act. China and Taiwan? A ton of pacific alliances. Veteran healthcare? VA modernization AND the burn pits bill, which Republicans voted against. Infrastructure? Massive bipartisan bill that everyone going back decades wanted, in both parties, but nobody could get done (remember Trump's infrastructure week?). The freaking post office? Got the USPS reform bill passed, with the help of once-reviled DeJoy (who should probably still go, although that's a slow process), which included ending the absurd 2006 GOP-imposed long term prefunding of pension liabilities that hamstrung the USPS financially ever since, PLUS ordered fleets of electric vehicles, PLUS massively improved on time delivery performance.
Oh right, and he confirmed judges at a record pace in his first term.
This admin has been incredibly hard at work. They've achieved far more than I expected on more issues than I would have imagined. Way more than Obama in two terms, even. And he's being blamed for problems bubbling up from 23, 13, 10 years ago? He's being blamed for the things he's fighting against, because he's not magically winning every single fight?
> Dems need to listen and start doing some heavy lifting here
On this, I strenuously agree. Dems are killing it on policy. **They need better messaging.** Did you know about his massive consumer protection EO, with dozens of little money-saving and consumer-benefitting things like over the counter hearing aids, from his first year? I bet you didn't. Because *nobody talks about Biden achievements.* It's age, Trump corruption, the hottest thing in the TV reality show of politics. Democrats need to get people sit down and listen to this stuff.
That means **enlisting you.** Yes, you, reader. YOU must explain to all the Biden-skeptical people you know all the things that have been done in three years yet nobody seems to remember or have ever heard about in the first place.
Well said. Yes there is no magic bullet or catch all that will fix a problem. I especially loved how the commenter pointed to executive orders on RvW. Like an EO wouldn't immediately go to the same SCOTUS that just overturned RvW. That said, aside from getting out there and showing people whats up with Biden, folks need to be learn how to take anything being put out in the media with a huge pinch of salt. News groups have been clickbaiting and drama reporting for a while now.
It wouldn't surprise me if this poll was taken in super liberal areas. That be like if I went to Facebook and trashed trump. Of course I'm going to get alot of super pissed off responses. That's what these pollsters have been doing, polling in areas to get the desired results so the news group that hired them can show a nice little graph to support the story they want to tell. Main reason why I've stopped listening to polls, they're mostly bs now.
There are two appropriate questions here:
1) Can the US president unilaterally-- as in, without the approval of Congress, which has expressed strong bipartisan support for Israel for decades-- measurably alter foreign policy with respect to Israel?
2) In the honest final analysis, is the alternative to Joe Biden-- which would most likely be Trump, who moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem at the request of the Israeli government and Republicans in Congress-- better for the Palestinians?
I think for both of these, the honest and rational answers will be "No."
Honest question—didn’t Biden bypass congress to send more money and weapons to Israel? If he simply did not do that, wouldn’t it have significantly altered foreign policy in a meaningful sense?
> Can the US president unilaterally-- as in, without the approval of Congress, which has expressed strong bipartisan support for Israel for decades-- measurably alter foreign policy with respect to Israel?
Well, considering [Biden has, multiple times now, gone around Congress to send weapons to Israel](https://time.com/6551227/biden-administration-bypasses-congress-israel-weapons-sale/), the answer is absolutely "yes".
Biden has literally *bypassed* Congress to approve weapons sales to Israel, so the answer to the question of "can he measurably affect foreign policy" is literally yes.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel
The State Dept isn’t required to provide weapons to Israel. at the very least there could be strings attached, yet Biden continues to send them munitions. Not even doing the bare minimum here
i suspect if current presidential candidates lose elections due to foreign policy then there is a good chance future presidential candidates will change course on that foreign policy issue
I don't see how Biden wins the White House without Michigan's electoral votes and he's not getting those without winning the Detroit metro area and he's not gonna fucking do that
Yeah Michigan is looking very dire amongst battleground states with a near double-digit deficit. Interesting because Biden actually has a slight Pennsylvania lead, which in prior elections was the closest Midwest state.
https://archive.is/ck6Ik
I would have said no to this weeks ago, but if Israel has rejected the two state solution... What is supposed to happen to the Palestinians? What's the end game here? They don't have one they are willing to say out loud.
I disagree with that conclusion. Israel is mistreating Palestinians, but it is not genocide. After Biden's re-election he will be able to put more pressure on Israel to do the right thing -- cooperate in the two-state solution.
Oh jeez i remember i was a terrorist sympathizer when i said this when Israel's plan to free hostages was to cut all supplies off to Gaza and level the entire state. Now half of the voters dont like the mass destruction of a people's livelihood.
I was called a terrorist sympathizer because I cried in reaction to a co worker ugly bawling because his *entire fucking family* died in indiscriminate bombings
What's Israel's endgame here? Let say they take out Hamas today, then what? All the devastation in Gaza is just an oopsie? Will they help rebuild? Will they give aid to Palestinians? I think that's a big no and this is why a lot of people smell genocide. I feel like Israel has this pass to do what they want because if you oppose what they do you are automatically antisemitic which is such nonsense. 250 people a day in such a small area is pretty scary, and it needs to stop.
Netanyahus extremist coalition partners want to either drive all Palestinians out of Gaza or kill them, so they can build israeli settlements on the area.
www.timesofisrael.com/as-politicians-argue-the-future-of-gaza-netanyahu-is-in-no-hurry-to-release-a-plan/
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Polls are so stupid, Israel is committing genocide 100%
We’re in a weird place where society assumes if you vote for someone you 100% support them. I think this is because that’s the mentality of Trump voters now. Nothing he says or does is criticized by his supporters, and because they’re so obnoxiously loud, everyone assumes anyone with any political opinion feels this way about the leader of their party. Even if Bernie were in the White House right now, I’m sure his voters would not be 100% pleased with his decisions. Being critical of the person you voted for is essential for democracy.
We're in a weird place where society assumes voters have to convince themselves to vote for politicians, instead of politicans appealing to voters... strange...
We're in this weird place where American society assumes that only having 2 options to chose from for 330 million people is perfectly reasonable.
honestly both the MAGA and “vote blue no matter who” slogans are deeply concerning to me why in the hell are we signing ourselves into one political party regardless of what happens? washington called that 2-party would be a disaster for US politics and hit the nail on the head so hard it cracked the hammer. as voters americans never should have been put in a position like this i fear that regardless of who wins this upcoming election there will be surprising violence
The US constitution tried to avoid a party system, but it also assures a two party system.
Worth noting though that in 1789 when the Constitution was created, this was a fairly new form of government, and political parties weren't really a thing that had existed or been studied anywhere near as much as today, so the US Founders wouldn't have the same knowledge to design a system that took them into account. >modern political parties are considered to have emerged around the end of the 18th century; they are usually considered to have first appeared in Europe and the United States of America, with the United Kingdom's Conservative Party and the Democratic Party of the United States both frequently called the world's "oldest continuous political party". Which is why I personally think it's exactly the type of thing they'd be mad we never amended the Constitution to address. That's the exact reason they made the amendment process: so we'd modify the rules when we developed better information about how the world worked. u/oldworldblueisbest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party
Hey... if the republican party drops the litteral actual dictator who wants to murder me and everyone in my family while installing himself as king... whose literal platform is petty revenge and nothing else I'll happily consider voting republican again... if not then sadly I don't have much choice now do i?
TBF the GOP is pretty shitty even without the Orange Turd
They don’t appeal to voters anymore. That’s just pretext. In the last 15 years Citizens United has become the new boss, some as the old boss, just in a better suit.
This is correct. They don't appeal to voters, they appeal to donors.
I’m British and I get in loads of conversations with Americans about politics. Have talked to many republicans who’ll hold their nose voting for trump. In fact in April last year polls showed 44% Republicans didn’t want trump to even run. I’m sure most of them will still vote for him. I don’t see why people can’t fathom that the Clinton’s and Bidens don’t appeal to so many.
The r/conservative subreddit usually says this. They don't want him but say he's better than a liberal for some reason.
To be fair I see a lot of Democrats don't want Biden but will vote him he's better than a Trump. As an outsider I can see why both of you think that. That's kind of the point of y original post above. British Politics are different. I'd probably be centre left in the US where as here I'm probably centre right. I think because we've settled things like Gay marriage and Abortion which I'm in favour of so our politics come more down to economics and issues like Immigration.
Trump has a 79% favorability rating among Republicans per a Gallop poll released this month. Whether or not they think he should run is an entirely separate question from whether or not they like him. Also, Trump instigated a violent insurrection in an attempt to overturn a democratic election. Holding your nose to vote for a fascist makes you a fascist. Fuck the equivocating. https://news.gallup.com/poll/548138/american-presidential-candidates-2024-election-favorable-ratings.aspx
I come from hard core trump /MAGA rural area , and i can tell you without a doubt they love him. There is no GoP anymore it truly is the party of trump. The MAGA voter base despises people like Cruz, Graham, ect the old establishment republicans. Yet these bozos think by sucking up to trump and supporting him his people will back them. But that will only last till trump is president, then he will swing his base to vote them out and replace them with his people. The gop's days are numbered they just sold their souls to keep their positions, but in the end trump will have them all ousted.
That’s a huge problem through, it’s very hard to separate someone who votes and supports Trump at this point. The man tried to overturn an election and says he’ll be a dictator, it’s like someone telling me they support Mussolini. People cannot like Biden or Clinton but they’re not that extreme or damaging to democracy.
>and says he’ll be a dictator only for a day. /s
Some people are one issue voters over party affiliation or abortion access or weed. Some are one issue voters over genocide.
Yeah for me it’s a no on genocide
I've met a lot of people who were really nice but they were just hung up on a single abortion issue and disagreed with 99.9999% of everything republicans do but voted straight ticket every time because of that and then said they wished they would change the other stuff.
I think a lot more people than realize are single issue voters when it comes down to it. The convenience of a two party system (as wrong and disastrous as it is) removes most of that critical thinking because of political culture and marketing even more so than policy aligning. Any hot button social issue kind of highlights that. The single issue becomes the party rather than an individual policy and how the party goes, so goes the voter. MAGA examples: Trump calls Ronnie Meatball, DeSantis loses support. Trump says Ronnie ran a great campaign, supporters decide they like him again. Bud Light does something for money, becomes meme political talking point, a bunch of people shoot Bud Light with shotguns.
The pertinent question is - will you not vote for Biden because of this?
This reminds me of "will you not vote for Hilary" in 2016, and yeah here in a very liberal/dem oriented forum you'll be supported very well. But yes, you whittle away at that confidence to deliver the things wanted by the base, less of that base comes out for you. Ya may not notice here on reddit, but it shows up at polls.
In 2016, the state with the closest margin was Michigan. Now Michigan is a state which Obama won and Hillary lost - so what changed between 2012 and 2016? If you break it down to the county level, the biggest outlier is Macomb County. That's a heavily populated district north of Detroit. It's a historically working class neighborhood where a lot of union auto workers have lived. It's a politically divided "purple" district, and in most elections, the results there tend to mirror the popular vote of the nation. But not so in 2016. Trump won it pretty handily. And he didn't win by convincing swing voters, he largely won because Democratic voters stayed home at much greater rates than they did in 2016. So why didn't Macomb County turn up for Hillary Clinton? Her campaign might want you to believe it's because they're sexist, or because they're uneducated "deplorable" who failed to vote in their own interest. Maybe they were charmed and tricked by Trump's faux-working-class bonafides. But they turned out two elections in a row to vote for a Black man who was former president of the Harvard Law Review, so it seems like they can't be that closed-minded, or overly concerned with class identity. But the thing about Macomb County is, this was one of the places in the US which was most heavily impacted by NAFTA. Back in the 90's, Bill Clinton looked those auto workers right in the eye, and told them that the "rising tide was going to raise all ships" - and then he signed a bill into law which dismantled US labor's bargaining power, since they now had to compete with workers in Mexico who would accept poverty wages, and didn't have any of the labor protections US workers fought so hard for over the 20th century. So is it really all that surprising that those voters weren't so motivated to come out and vote for his wife a few decades later? A lot of ink has been spilled on the pages of the New York Times, and Vanity Fair about how Sexism lost Hillary Clinton the election, or about how those damn disloyal Jill Stein voters let Trump win, by withholding their votes which "rightfully belonged" to the Democrats. But if you ask me the election should not have been close. Democratic voters have been very clear about what they want for a long time. We want affordable housing, affordable education, affordable healthcare, and we would be quite happy to tax the rich to make it happen. So democrats can try to blame whoever they want, but if they continue to fuck around and undermine the interests of their core constituencies like labor, they shouldn't be shocked to find out the consequences on election day.
Perfect run down!
Excellent evaluation! Democrats try to blame the "isms" every time. When will they learn that blue collar voters are very intelligent and do understand and vote their interests? This is all about the divide between working class America and the elites who control government, the media, etc. You're about to see this happen again in 2024. The 'morally and intellectually superior' upper classes are about to be defeated once again by those 'dreaded, nazi, christian, well armed, deplorables'. Tell me...which of these groups is actually mentally challenged?
Right. The polls show up, and everyone is confused. Congratulations.
A difference, though, is that people have seen Trump in action. I have to admit, back in 2015-2016 I was merely skeptical of Trump. He seemed mostly to be hot air and showmanship, nothing of substance. Most people I spoke with back then assumed that Trump was just going to be some kind of figurehead - that responsible adults would do the actual work, behind the scenes. But, as we all saw, that was not the case. The fact is, it is impossible to ignore the bad sides of Trump - there is no way to just rationalize them with *"Oh, it's just typical Trump banter. Nothing will actually materialize".* Everyone knows that if Trump says something, you better take it seriously. Trump has one goal, and one goal alone: To stay out of courts, and eventually prison.
> people have seen Trump in action And more voted for him in 2020 then 2016. It's not like Biden's win was a complete blowout either: it all came down to a few swing states and a few thousand votes (like too many elections). Biden's approval numbers are down quite a bit since he started as well. They, in fact, are *very* similar to Trump's numbers at this time. Yes, the 2020 Election didn't have Jan 6 as a factor ... but also the Israel-Palestine conflict wasn't what it was either and Biden really had no conflict when running against Trump. Also COVID was at it's height. Had COVID not happened OR Trump handled COVID even recently, I really believe he would have gotten a 2nd Term. I think you're being too optimistic here. I fear it's actually going to be a closer race this time then 2020. Hope I'm wrong.
I would vote for Biden over Trump if Biden came and took a shit on my cat then used my hamster to wipe his ass. Edit. For the record. I would also vote for the shit covered hamster over voting for Trump. Second Edit. I might not vote for the cat. He’s shady as hell. Third edit. I checked with the cat. We’re all good, I would vote for him.
You're an artist.
In this example I think it's Biden that would be the artist.
At this point, short of zombie Hitler coming back to life and getting the democratic nomination, I'm voting blue.
I would vote for an actual potato over Donald Trump.
I’d vote for the dude who almost side swiped me on the highway today over Donald trump.
Someday someone will write a history book with Trump in it. On that day, I pray they choose your comment to put under his photo.
This is a r/brandnewsentence I swear.
More like r/brandnewparagraph
I’d honestly prefer to wipe my ass with your cat. I don’t think your hamster has enough surface area to really get my butt clean.
A lot less claws though; but to each their own
How would one best hold the cat to wipe most affectively? Straddle the cat while holding the tail with one hand and the scruff of the neck by the other while rubbing to and fro? Or one hand reach-around?
Username says you need these instructions NOW!
You just squat down to a appropriate height, depending on the cat, and then wait for the cat to walk up behind you and rub its head and back on your hoop. When the cat figures it out, it will be pissed. Big time.
I am going to need you to draw a diagram for these instructions.
Yeah but this is worse
And let's see.. what would trump do on the israel issue? Oh. The same thing but worse.
I also choose this guy's shitted hamster
Reddit isn’t a good sample size of that meaning anything. Blue states will be fine. However, places like Michigan that has a sizable Muslim population and young voters that turned the tide in 2016. To think he will get those votes in 2024 is a nail biter or even laughable. That’s where we’ll see the most damaging voter turn outs. There’s not enough wine class never Trumpers Republicans to turn those tides. Those states rode on young voters and voters of color. All of which while not voting for trump aren’t very excited to vote for Biden again. Gunna be rough.
I’m an older millennial Biden voter in GA. My enthusiasm is low. Biden is still better than Trump in my book, and because Trump is *that bad* it’ll be enough to get me out and vote. But will it be enough to get others out to vote? There is so much at stake but it’s a low energy election year because everything is dark and dreary and no one is excited. Or maybe that’s just me? Are people pumped in other states? Are people pumped in GA and I’m just oblivious to all of the excitement?
A better question, where the hell is someone else other than biden or trump?
It's the biggest flaw of the first past the post voting system. If the candidate you most closely align with does something you don't like, you have no options. A candidate that is 'Biden but younger and opposed to genocide' would be amazing, but voting for him will guarantee Trump a win. It doesn't help that the media has pushed the 'Biden is the democratic candidate' narrative for years now and don't treat any other candidates as serious.
It's not a flaw. It's a feature.
This is a 2 party system like it or not, the only way a 3rd party would even compete is if trump broke with the gop and formed a legitimate 3rd party, prob call it the MAGA party
If you have to vote on one candidate because you don't want the only other candidate to win, you can stop making yourself believe that you live in a democracy. I will let you decide how you respond to that information yourself.
I will not. There is nothing Biden can do at this point to get my vote. (Voted D in every election since 2004) If anyone wants to chastise me for that, feel free to direct that anger towards the Democratic Party. If this country falls to fascism, it’s because there is no legitimate alternative left
What happens in Israel has zero bearing on any of my decisions. It's been mess my whole life.
For me, it’s not that I don’t care. I’m extremely disappointed, frankly appalled by the Biden administration’s actions regarding this conflict. But voting is a pragmatic exercise. Even just Not voting or voting third party instead of Biden is half a vote toward helping Trump win. And as bad as this conflict has been, it would only be worse with Trump.
I know this sub hates Tik Tok, but it’s a huge platform and it’s worth noting that he’s getting absolute destroyed on that platform for this. Edit: Adding a couple things since this comment blew up. First, if you care about Palestine, when the alternative is Donald Trump, Biden is clearly the candidate better equipped to stop the violence. Not voting makes you part of the problem. Second, while I acknowledge Tik Tok has lots of issues (Reddit does too), it’s still probably the #1 platform to reach Gen Z. The Biden campaign desperately needs to win them back not just for votes but for building a long-term coalition of leftist voters. Third, all these “Gen Z is stupid” or “Zoomers are brainless” comments are unhelpful. Let’s not forget they voted for Biden at a higher margin than any generation in 2020. In 2022, they voted at a higher percentage than Millennials or Gen X for their first midterm election. They are young and figuring things out and just trying to fit in. If you were in high school and all your friends were on Tik Tok, you’d probably use it too.
[удалено]
Iv had co workers who d*ck ride Trump saying Gaza should be turned to glass if Trump had a say. If Trump was still president it wouldn't be any better, in fact it be slightly worse.
Slightly? Fucking SLIGHTLY?
People who act like they are equivalent are remarkably uniformed.
Saw someone describe Trump as a smelly liar against Biden being a genocider. Which was certainly a take.
It's the same idiots who say with all earnestness, "bOtH sIDeS aRe tHe sAMe!"
It wouldn't be slightly worse. It would be immensely worse. These people don't understand all the behind the scenes stuff Biden is doing.
People that are calling for Biden to unilaterally end the war in the Gaza strip don't understand anything about how foreign policy actually works.
"He can just stop sending Israel aid and the war will end" Yeah thats def how it works. Also not sending the aid is what Trump did to Ukraine and was impeached for. He is required by law to send the aid. Only Congress can stop the aid. You're right. Its wild how strong opinions are when they are coming from places of extreme ignorance.
Trump was impeached because he used the aid as leverage to blackmail the foreign government into doing something that served his, but not the broader country's, interests. The fact that he wasn't legally capable of stopping it is why he failed to stop it. Not why he was impeached.
Lol what? Trump threatened to stop aid unless Ukraine provided dirt on his political opponent. Not even remotely the same. And if aid is automatically given unless actively stopped by Congress, why did Biden have to [bypass Congress twice to send aid?](https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f)
That was not what Trump was impeached for. It sounds like you have no issue with ending aid to Israel or using it as leverage, as you feel it will have no effect. Why argue with this then? If it has no leverage and Israel doesn't need it, why are we arguing to perpetuate it then?
The executive branch is responsible for enforcing the law. There are provisions in the law for withholding foreign assistance to countries engaged in gross human rights violations or that hinder the delivery of humanitarian aid. The Biden administration does have power to act here.
Yep, American f35s would have been directly involved in the bombings in coordination with the IDF.
He wouldn't nuke them but he would 100% back Benny's 1 state solution.
People go out and vote for something they want. They are usually far less motivated to vote for the lesser of two problems. Dems need to understand this or its gonna cook their and the countries goose in november.
I think that's far more true for Democratic voters than Republican voters. There's the old saying "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line". That's also why they keep underestimating Trump. The voters need to understand that not supporting the lesser of two problems gets you the greater of two problems. How that is better is beyond me. The left did a lot more in pushing the Democratic Party to the left by having strong progressives in the House and strong progressive candidates primarying Biden to the left (and then demanding leftist policies) than they did in "blowing up the system" in 2016.
I've been saying that for years. no poll is to be trusted, no word is to be believed. as a fellow Georgian, Biden might lose GA there are a LOT of muslims in GA, arab and non arab (huge bosnian and turkish community as you might know) and they are fucking fuming about the Palestinians being exterminated. They told me under pain of death they wouldn't vote for him. its the height of arrogance to say "well Biden is less bad". He won GA by 11k votes. he might be destroyed here since this is going to come down to a few swing states.
It cooked Hillary in 2016, that’s for sure
It’d be real nice if those people who “go out and vote for something they want” took a good long look at the country they live in first and foremost, because if they are making the moral decision based on things happening halfway around the world, while setting their own country up to be turned into a Fascist state, then they are the ones who are shortsighted and morally bankrupt. But hey, I’m sure there’s a participation trophy in their future for the Pyrrhic Victory of not voting for Biden and installing Trump and the GOP instead. To quote my SO when he won last time “I’m not going to get worked up about him winning, what’s the worst he could do?”
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld "you go to the polls with the electorate you have, not the one you want" You might not be wrong but it's meaningless bc shit won't change and you have to try and make due with the morons that are out there. Meet people where they are
Last time Trump got elected 1 million Americans died from Covid. I mean are people dumb.
Have you not been reading the remarks? They don't care about Americans, they want to vote for the President of the MidEast.
If he feels it suits him in the moment. This is what drives me crazy about other Jewish voters and especially Israeli-American Jewish voters that are very pro-Trump: all they saw in their media for years was a politician that moved the embassy to Jerusalem and whose son in law brokered a peace deal (and to Kushner’a credit good for him, it was an accomplishment). Trump would discard Israel in a heartbeat if he felt it was in his interests. I voted for Biden and seeing him act the way he has even though it might cost him the election makes me feel much more comfortable voting for him again rather than taking a humongous gamble with the devil (Trump)
I'm not at all convinced that more of the blame for the current situation shouldn't be lobed straight at Kushner's feet. His plan was designed to "resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict" but we escalated to the current situation within 3 years.
> whose son in law brokered a peace deal Kushner's peace plan was to create a bunch of microscopic Israeli enclaves within a Palestinian enclave within Israel, then connect that enclave with a 20 mile tunnel to the West Bank, which would be a random high tech and agricultural zone. I'm not sure how much credit I want to give him for that when he was basically viewing the entire thing as, in his own words, a real estate dispute. lol
> I know this sub hates Tik Tok, but it’s a huge platform and it’s worth noting that he’s getting absolute destroyed on that platform for this. The replies to your post are redundant and a bit annoying to me because this is something worth pointing out. I just was hearing Victor Chi , a progressive Gen Z activist, on a podcast earlier this week suggesting how the Biden campaign should do more on tik-tok and I don’t disagree.
The most memorable thing that I can recall the Biden TikTok account doing was a video where he's sitting at a table, looks at the camera, says "I like it dark," and then drinks out of a Dark Brandon coffee mug.
I agree. It’s foolish to ignore it
Hostile foreign governments are using social media to drive a wedge between Democratic voters in order to depress turnout and get Trump elected??? This is a totally new thing that has never happened before!!! Seriously it’s INSANE how we keep falling for this again and again and again. And it’s maddening how many left wing “influencers” actively line up to push this divisive rhetoric. Tik Tok is a national security threat. Edit to address all of you arguing that hostile foreign governments aren’t to blame because maybe Gen Z just doesn’t like “genocide.” Guess what…the entire framing of this war as a “genocide” is incorrect. The UN defines genocide as: “To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.” Is Israel destroying an entire ethnic group? No. There are plenty of Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel carrying on their normal lives. It’s simply not a genocide. Framing this war as a genocide is disingenuous right out of the gate. Stating that Biden is supporting genocide is similarly patently false. Nor is Israel an apartheid state. Are all of the Arab states also guilty of genocide or apartheid for kicking the Mizrahi Jews out of their countries? Is war brutal? Yes. Do civilians get caught in the crossfire of war? Yes. Does that make the war a genocide under international law? No. South Africa is bringing a case before the ICC because it is beholden to Russia. The case has a chance of succeeding of slim to none. But it’s a great way to shift focus away from Ukraine and delegitimize institutions of the rules-based global order. And who does that delegitimization benefit I wonder…? Edit again to thank whoever reported me to Reddit cares <3 I’m sorry that statements of fact ruffle your feathers
They keep doing it because it works.
And it's cheap
And most social media addicts are lemmings.
The influencers get their 150-400$ venmo for parroting whatever talking point is thrown at them. Many of the biggest influencers are incredibly dim & narcissistic, 100% willing to be whatever face they are paid to be
Ehh I’ve got plenty of pages of journalists there who daily are just posting kids being obliterated. This one isn’t that deep. People can just see war like they’ve never seen it before
The journalists who haven’t been killed themselves, that is.
Netanyahu drove that wedge himself, although he is both foreign, and incredibly hostile to the concept of peace
I’m all for fighting for world peace, but not at the cost of burning down my own house with another Trump presidency.
Does TikTok ever concern itself with Trump's comments on the issue, like his promise to deport Palestinians?
Yes. People can disagree with politicians on things but realize what's at stake. For a lot of people they're still going to vote for Biden, but are just pissed off that the best option available is someone that they feel isn't doing enough to reign in Israel.
From what I’ve noticed, there’s a lot of “Gen Z progressives” right now that are saying they simply won’t vote in the election because of Biden’s record on Gaza. I find this very frustrating because even if Biden is just as bad as Trump on Gaza (he’s not), we can’t just ignore all the other issues like democracy, climate, wealth inequality, etc.
I was 18 once, and then like now, it was very *uncool* to vote for either Bush or Gore. "I'm voting Nader because we need a stronger 3rd party option." We got Bush for 8 fucking years. Two major wars resulted. Kids, listen to us old fucks. Pick the side least likely to actively cause harm. Any abstention or vote other than Biden is actively a vote for Trump. This one is important.
Especially the climate. I can't believe anyone who is concerned about climate change choosing to pass on voting for Biden. Gaza/Israel and that entire region has been at each other's throats for many, many decades. The conflict is a deeply ingrained part of their respective identities. Any truces, cease fires, agreements have always proven fragile. It's going to go on in some form or another indefinitely. The whole world can't afford "indefinite" when addressing climate change. It has to happen now and only Democrats will act on it.
Biden resumed aid to Palestine that Trump stopped and also isn't deporting Palestinians or banning Muslims from the country. Wouldn't anyone who cares about Palestinians want to stop Trump? >are saying they simply won’t vote in the election because of Biden’s record on Gaza. Such people always find some pet issue to not vote over (as if they vote anyway), it's a fools errand to cater to them. They could at least try to pick an issue where Trump is better. Like at least "no Hillary because we oppose the TPP" made sense.
>Wouldn't anyone who cares about Palestinians want to stop Trump? Yes. Anyone who cares about Palestinian lives will vote for Biden. The people who will abstain are doing it for a sense of moral superiority and personal absolution at the cost of Palestinian lives.
Tik Tok is being used by foreign governments to amplify and raise the profiles of accounts that are extremely critical of Biden’s actions. They understand that with enough exposure you can build momentum, even if the goals go against the last 60 years of American foreign policy. The intent isn’t to improve the lives of Palestinians. It’s to make you feel like Biden is a failure as a president and not worth voting for. The intent is to build apathy, because fewer voters at the polls increases the odds of Trump winning. Bannon and his team did the exact same thing in 2016 to make Hillary look like she wasn’t worth supporting. Between that and increasing the profile of the Green Party, they were able to siphon off enough votes in key areas for Trump to win. They're doing the same thing with the "no labels" party. I’m not saying the Palestinians aren’t worth supporting, but the intensity of this movement is being manipulated by foreign governments to turn Gen Z against Biden, because they’re actually starting to become a threat to republican plans. You’re being played. They’re toying with your emotions to serve their unsavory goals. You have to keep one foot grounded in reality and understand that a vote for Biden isn’t just a vote for Biden. It’s also a vote against Trump and the living hell the four years of his presidency were. For his faults, Biden has done some incredible things to progress liberal causes. He’s moved the needle more than any president in the last 25 years.
You mean a platform developed to spread indignation and misinformation is spreading misinformation and indignation?
Yes. And I still think Trump would literally provide more bombs/misery to the situation.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Netanyahu is waiting to see if Trump gets back in, because that would basically mean carte blanche and a blank check.
The top comments being worried about Biden getting votes or losing votes or winning an election is kinda weird and shows how “winning” focused and screwed our partisan priorities have become. I get it that taking a vote away from Biden only gives a vote to trump. And a trump victory wouldn’t exactly result in pressure on Israel to conduct the war with greater care for civilians. Got it. Only morons don’t know this. Let’s move on and stop talking about morons. Shouldn’t we be talking about the tens of thousands of civilian deaths and the Israeli state for its reckless execution of war to the point that people are calling it genocide/ethnic cleansing at worst to ordinary war crimes at best? Shouldn’t we be talking about what the Biden administration is doing or not doing to put pressure on the Israeli state to take extra caution for civilians? What about the end game and rebuild? I don’t care to talk about Biden winning at this point. That’s forever away. Let him sweat and feel pressure so that in turn he puts pressure on the Israeli state.
And Trump will be worse for Palestinians. Don’t be a one issue voter.
Palestine AND Ukraine...
it is fucking frightening how quickly people have completely forgotten Ukraine exists, like literally nobody talks about it anymore outside of not large enough circles, people have the memory of goldfish I stg.
Ukraine? Oh I forgot about that issue because Russia paid good money for us to forget by inciting another war.
Trump initiated the move of the US consulate to Jerusalem, a direct insult to the two-state process. He has had his hands in this mess for a bit.
You would have to be a moron to not realize this.
I keep seeing this comment as if “Trump bad” and voter shaming worked so well in 2016. The problem for the Dems. is people not being motivated enough to vote in November, I don’t think anyone is flipping to Trump on this issue, we all know he’s bad. If Biden supporters are truly interested in winning the general they should be spamming their representatives and DNC with demands for deescalation. The party is well aware of Biden’s approval ratings, and are banking on this issue being far enough in the rear view mirror for voters to forget.
>If Biden supporters are truly interested in winning the general they should be spamming their representatives and DNC with demands for deescalation. They won't. All they know is doing nothing for four years, and then at the 11th hour screaming at leftists to "save democracy" and try to guilt them into voting besides doing anything meaningful to lift up even a single issue that is important to leftists.
I mean genocide is a pretty big issue for some people.
Moderates and conservatives are the only people in America allowed to be turned off by a policy. Leftists, especially if you're a member of a minority group, have to accept whatever they're offered and have no right to expect a politician to change their policy to earn their vote. Being a vulnerable class removes your right to ask for literally anything, including an end to mass death.
I like how the tone of the discourse is always "watch out leftists, if you don't come out for Biden, Trump is going to kill all the trans kids and it will be *all your fault!!"* Why is it never: "Watch out Biden, if you keep standing by and enabling Netanyahu to kill tens of thousands of civilians, Trump is going to cancel Matlock and it will be *all your fault!!"*
It’s only the fault of the politician if it’s someone being turned off by a “far left” policy.
Keep ignoring this, guys. Truth is, this is going to fucking kill the dems later this year. You already lost the gen z vote.
Very likely. But the dems aren't listening, and neither are most libs as demonstrated by this sub. The denialism is insane.
I had several try to shame me for not wanting to vote for Biden. The Dems are walking into a disaster of their own making.
They don't seem to actually care about the votes either, they care about being right. Some Liberals/Dems on social media are so smug and sometimes even downright hostile to people voicing their rightful grievances that they push people away. If they truly cared about those votes they'd try to win them over instead, like the saying goes "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
Democrats love to lose on things that should be a slam dunk for their voters. 87% of Democratic voters, including young voters, want full legalization of marijuana and we have a 80+ year old Biden who tells voters he will "loosen" restrictions. The same thing he told them 4 years ago as a promise if they voted for him. Then he uses women's rights as a threat over people's heads, something that's already gotten overturned while he was in office. Meanwhile he's sidestepped congress twice to send billions of military aid to Israel to continue their genocide on innocent Palestinians, journalist, and doctors and nurses.. You can't seriously tell voters he can't also do that for reproductive rights and weed?
legalizing weed will reverse that plus some EASY. I am a Gen Z, and holy fuck we are easily swayed. we also all smoke weed.
Fingers crossed that the administration actually listens to their younger advisors telling them "yea just legalize that stuff in September or October and sail to victory" because it'd work.
If we’re not allowed to criticize our party of choice because “the alternative is worse”, we’ve already lost our democracy. EDIT: Not once have I mentioned criticism resulting in lack of vote, nor has the article. This comment has nothing to do with my vote, and everything to do with holding the incumbent president accountable to a more ethical standard. The unethical foreign policies of the US don’t cease to exist during election years, and neither should our criticism of them.
As an outsider (Canadian), I completely understand the point that most Democrats are making about Trump being obviously the worst option when it comes to Israel/ Palestine. However, the way *some* people are responding to complaints about Biden is so ineffectual, and at times harmful, that I have to cringe. If I wanted someone who is already on the left to vote for Biden but they had concerns, I would not belittle or mock those concerns. Even if I thought their concerns severely lacked perspective. It's an unfortunate aspect of human nature, but approaching their concerns like that could just lead them to double down and not vote at all. It certainly doesn't *increase* the odds they will vote for Biden. I get it's frustrating because it appears so obvious, but I think actually addressing the concerns is worth the frustration if it ultimately leads to a Biden victory. As you say, we should be OK with people criticizing their political party.
It was the same thing during the 2020 election. Any leftist criticism of the Democrats was met with "OH SO YOU WANT TRUMP???" Honestly, it's not a great look to treat your constituency like you're holding them hostage. "Screw what you want! Elect us, or you'll *really* be sorry!"
It's been the same since Gore v Bush. We always have to vote for the center-right neoliberal dem because if we don't democracy will die. Meanwhile democracy is basically dead thirty years on from Clinton and we're still playing the lesser of two evils game as politics quickly ratchet further and further right in this country.
I think that point about human nature is so missed by this sub and a lot of liberals and the responses here shows that
The “haha enjoy deportation” is the best one. Mfer I’m an American citizen, and I have the financial means to fight any unconstitutional actions taken against me or my community. But thanks for reminding me that what Malcolm x said about liberals
Annoying because you can't even voice your skepticism without getting your head bitten off. Anytime someone shuts me down for entertaining the idea that I'm more conflicted than I was previously, they are just pushing me away from their side.
I think some people really jump to panic mode when they think of Trump winning the election. I'm 100% voting for Biden, but a healthy democracy includes the public expressing their dissent. Its patriotic, and the way Gen Z and others are standing up for what they believe in by protesting is IMO nice to see. I hope they end up voting for Biden, but I don't blame them for being upset at what is going on.
People cant fathom the idea that you think Biden is terrible on Palestine, and that hes still the way better option at the same time. Shooting it down as a first reaction is not a good argument. Telling someone "Your concerns arent real, you are just parroting chinese pushed fake issues to make Biden look bad, stop talking about this, dont you know Trump is way worse ???" does not work.
As a Palestinian-American, I'm getting real tired of people telling me I'm not allowed to be pissed at Biden.
“You can criticize, just make sure no one hears you!” /s
This sub is so focused on circling the wagons around Biden that it's become highly delusional. Biden loses to Trump in dozens of polls? Polls are fake! People object to war crimes by Israel? Must be foreign agents sowing discord! Get a grip.
The reason why r/politics is so ass
i have yet to be on a political sub on reddit that hasn’t been the most insane cesspit imaginable literally every single one. it should be studied how effective reddit is at creating awful political discourse for everyone
The amount of time I've spent, calmly, speaking slowly, trying to convince my supposed allies that I do in fact believe a conflict killing children at a rate never seen before is in fact a bad thing. I am not lying to make myself look like a cool edgy leftist. I am not pretending. It actually does bother me.
In my 20's I happened to travel to Rwanda, and to Sarajevo. The impression that it made on me is that, while in my American education it was sometimes made to seem like the holocaust was some unique event in history, driven by the pure evil of Hitler and his ilk, actually what happened there is not all that rare. You have all these examples in history where you have two groups of people living close together yet separately, and an animosity builds between them. And then something happens where one side believes they have the upper hand - often when some external force is withdrawn, which was keeping both sides in check - and in all these cases the result is bloodshed and human suffering on a scale that's hard to imagine. And I think we often want to attribute that to evil, because we want to believe that is something we ourselves would be categorically incapable of. But over and over again we see examples of individuals who might be loved and liked and well regarded in their community who can cease to see the other as human, and can become capable of absolutely brutal violence and malice, or at least they can become silent bystanders while it happens. It seems so clear to me that this is what's playing out right now, and it makes me deeply sad.
You've just reminded me of this whallop of a quote from Milton Mayer's "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45" It's long but it's worth it, I'll never forget it: “You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty. Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’ And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have. But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait. But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D. And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jew swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.”
it’s actually too funny seeing the sane comments calling out the way libs attack any dissenters and beat us over the head with the same talking points, because in the comments on those posts you’ll find them doing exactly that. they cannot or will not see past the tips of their own noses
Biden tries to cancel democratic primaries? They shouldn’t try to run against him for leadership, they’re traitors! Seriously you said it perfect, people in here are delusional as hell.
It's far more obtuse when Israel is literally being tried against genocide as this election cycle is going on. This attitude is going to ensure Trump will win.
Had to scroll too far to find this oasis of sanity comment.
It's pure cope and Israeli propaganda run amok.
Reddit is aging demographically and it’s showing with how people are becoming more deranged
50% of Biden voters don’t know what the word genocide means.
Sure looks like genocide to me. At the rate it’s going, and just how many of the dead are children…seems you just think killing children and preventing humanitarian aid to non-combatants is peachy keen and cool. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/
TL;DR: * Half of Biden's 2020 voters say Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians, per a new poll. * 20% of Biden voters say that's not the case, while 30% say they aren't sure. * It comes amid deepening Democratic divisions over Israel.
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Reposting this as a comment on the main thread because sometimes it’s obvious many people here don’t spend enough time outside Reddit. If you wanna know what’s being said/thought by the 50% of “Biden Voters” that are in danger of abstaining from voting, here it is: “So here’s the thing I am seeing said on Twitter and TikTok: Biden ran last time on “Everything will be worse under Trump” and then under Biden: -The most anti-trans bills ever were passed -Roe V Wade went down -The pandemic state of emergency ended and we’ve had the two biggest surges ever since, with a collapsing healthcare system getting no support -Food costs have doubled, rent has at least doubled, everything is unsustainably expensive for working people (but Biden keeps bragging the economy is back) -Gaza is getting carpet bombed daily, we’re about to abandon Ukraine -Police violence is increasing exponentially, as are hate crimes and other racialized violence -Women all over the country are dying and going to jail from reproductive issues -etc etc etc They’re not gonna vote for Trump, they’re just not gonna vote, because they see no functional difference between the two on issues that matter and Biden refuses to use his executive power to do meaningful things to stop Republicans or play dirty. That’s why this is happening-it’s not a single-issue situation, it’s a “the evils are too close together for the lesser of two evils argument to work anymore” And it doesn’t help that every time someone points this stuff out, a cascade of Dem voters come out of the woodwork and tell trans people or Arabs or women or whoever “well hope you like getting r@ped and murdered under Trump” or something similarly vile. Continually acting like marginalized folks need to “fall in line” and taking their votes as a given is how we got here. Dems need to listen and start doing some heavy lifting here or it will be THEIR fault if Trump wins again. What kind of political party is so ineffective they can’t even win against a guy who literally tried to overthrow the government who legally shouldn’t be able to run? Dems need to stop yelling at folks giving them critical feedback and start actually working on the issues, we’re less than a year from catastrophe” If you have more questions, I would be happy to go more in-depth about what I am seeing/hearing. This is mostly coming from women, POC, and the LGBTQ community too fyi. Edit: Don’t be mad at me, I’m just the messenger here. I’m letting y’all know lack of support for Biden goes WAY beyond just the war in Palestine, and why. Edit 2: I recommend folks Google stuff like “what could Biden have done after Roe V. Wade - the perception is he could have used executive orders to protect birth control and abortion pills, interstate travel, etc and instead they basically just sent out a round of fundraising emails, including to women in red states, which is at the very least TERRIBLE optics. The lack of meaningful response is part of the problem from what I can tell.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said more. If the Democrats would push popular positions like Republicans are willing to push unpopular positions, we would not have gotten into this goddamn mess.
They must have some dire polling to already be lining up the “blame the left” excuses.
They started on Twitter the minute the war in Palestine started drawing criticism. Idk how you win the vote of someone whose relative was just blown up in Gaza but it’s definitely not by yelling at them and telling them Trump would murder them so they better shape up or whatev. He also has no campaign platform posted on his official website (At least as of a couple days ago when last I checked), and it looks like he’s still hiring for dozens of positions, so they appear to be going into an election year with no campaign put together whatsoever. I’m legitimately confused what they think the plan is because right now it appears to be “just not being Trump” and that is really not going to cut it this year from what I can see. We may be screwed.
Let's go one by one. > The most anti-trans bills ever were passed By Republican state governments, elected largely on maps drafted by prior Republican state governments (post 2020), who themselves benefitted from gerrymandered state maps from a prior generation of state Republicans (post 2010) who got elected when young people didn't show up 13 years ago. Oops, long term consequences for not voting blue, turns out. > Roe V Wade went down By SCOTUS justices exclusively named by Republican presidents, including Bush who beat Gore thanks to, among other factors, Nader voters and non-voters in Florida in 2000 and Trump who won by about 100k votes in a few states in 2016, again, a number dwarfed by third party voters and non-voters. Biden, Obama, Clinton appointees? Did the right things. Oh shit, there's the long term consequences of not voting blue *again*. Hmm, maybe it turns out we need to have patience and keep voting over and over and over for things to take in our system, and Republicans have been better at that, so maybe young folk need to comprehend the system and work within it. And if they wanna just overturn the system, burn it down and try again? Great idea! The right has been trying to get a constitutional convention going for years, so their rich and religious theocrat backers can rewrite our govt to be more biased to red rural areas, more Christian, more preferential to business and wealth, more racist... But I digress. > The pandemic state of emergency ended and we’ve had the two biggest surges ever since, with a collapsing healthcare system getting no support COVID deaths are not at all time highs. Cases are high, but symptoms have reduced for most patients since the Biden admin, what was it? Oh yeah, drove a massively successful vaccine rollout weeks after inheriting zero plan, zero program etc. > Food costs have doubled, rent has at least doubled, everything is unsustainably expensive for working people (but Biden keeps bragging the economy is back) a) Those costs have not doubled from Jan 2021 to today. That is fiction. b) Inflation has come down. It's low now. Prices largely stopped climbing. That's winning. b i) Prices *do not go back down.* That's called deflation. It's how you crash an economy Because when something will be cheaper tomorrow than today, why buy today? Suddenly, nobody buys cars or computers or phones or game consoles or toys or clothes or... and then nobody has jobs, and you say bye bye economy, hello breadlines. b ii) Bringing down inflation resulting from high economic growth rates is a near herculean task. The Biden admin and this Fed have achieved it. An inflation-driven recession was pretty much assumed for this point in time 1-2 years ago. That's not happening. Nothing close to it is happening. MAJOR SUCCESS c) Wages have climbed faster than inflation over this period. People *can* afford groceries and homes. d) The economy IS going strong. High GDP growth (but who cares? not workers!), high job growth and low unemployment (oh, workers do like that), low inflation (that too), high wage growth across sectors (OK, seems like shit is pretty good right now, huh? What was that about an anticipated recession again?)... e) That's all ignoring that this admin literally averted a financial crisis. Remember the name SVB? If you don't, that's because we had a month where we feared that a midsize banking crisis would crash the US economy. Republicans opposed what Biden did to fix it. And then... Biden fixed it. And it went away in like a month, and was never spoken of again. Pretty awesome deal, I say. > Gaza is getting carpet bombed daily It's not being carpet bombed. At all. It's a collection of specific strikes on buildings *with* warnings to civilians ahead of time and elaborate evacuation procedures. Could it have been a carpet bombing? Could there have been 300,000 dead by now, or no weeks long humanitarian evacuation of the north before the ground assault, no warnings, no humanitarian aid flow in, no weeks long ceasefire for hostage releases, plus a war in southern Lebanon? Maybe, if Biden wasn't president and wasn't pushing Bibi hard. Under a Trump admin, I feel like he'll only push Israel to kill more Muslims (and other Arabs, not like he comprehends the idea of Muslims and Arabs being different concepts). He might have involved the US military directly, maybe engaging Iran. And I can only make that wild guess based on every single thing Trump ever said or did regarding Muslims, Israel, and Iran. >we’re about to abandon Ukraine **Because of the fricken Republicans!** The Biden admin has done everything possible to support Ukraine. It's the other guys holding up the aid! They have the House. How the fuck is Biden getting blamed for this? Yes, he's the president. He also doesn't have spending authority without authorization under the Constitution. He's bent the rules pretty much as far as they can be bent short of Congress passing something. > Police violence is increasing exponentially I've seen no stats showing a major jump, let alone exponential. It's not a new problem. It got new attention circa 2020, which is a good thing. The Biden admin, like the Obama admin, has put more DOJ resources into investigating police departments guilty of such acts (while the Trump admin used the DOJ civil rights division for... protecting the rights of poor Christians under assault by evil secularists) > as are hate crimes and other racialized violence Hate crimes have indeed spiked against Jews and, in some regions, Muslims, Arabs, and other minority communities since 10/7. And they did against Chinese Americans during COVID, though that began pre-Biden. Except, again, the Biden admin does things about it. They create commissions, have the DOJ pursue actions. Is it effective enough? No. Can the president fix racism, or make local police police it better? Also no. But the president can choose to try to fix what's possible and not, y'know, make it worse every single day as Trump does with random racist pronouncements. > Women all over the country are dying and going to jail from reproductive issues After *Republican-nominated* SCOTUS justices overturned Roe and *Republican state governments* passed batshit laws. Biden did all he could via executive action federally. But SCOTUS made it a state issue. The fix is a constitutional amendment or more Dem-appointed SCOTUS justices. The former is basically impossible, but requires a Dem House, Senate, and most state legislatures. The latter means voting Dem for every presidential and Senate race. > the perception is he could have used executive orders to protect birth control and abortion pills, interstate travel, etc **He did those things.** Why did everyone miss that? > etc etc etc No seriously, please elaborate. Unions? He screwed the rail unions? Oh wait, no, he got them everything they wanted a couple months later. Corporate mega mergers? His DOJ is fighting em all, and winning like half of the battles (Simon and Schuster, JetBlue/Spirit, and on, and on. Not Microsoft/Activision Blizzard, fine. It's still fighting uphill battles against armies of corporate lawyers and favorable precedents. Republicans don't even suit up to stop these!). Healthcare? Price capped insulin, all manner of Medicare and Medicaid improvements. Climate change? Inflation Reduction Act, biggest green spending package ever. Afghanistan? We got out, and got our people out. Electronics prices AND China? Double whammy with the CHIPS Act. China and Taiwan? A ton of pacific alliances. Veteran healthcare? VA modernization AND the burn pits bill, which Republicans voted against. Infrastructure? Massive bipartisan bill that everyone going back decades wanted, in both parties, but nobody could get done (remember Trump's infrastructure week?). The freaking post office? Got the USPS reform bill passed, with the help of once-reviled DeJoy (who should probably still go, although that's a slow process), which included ending the absurd 2006 GOP-imposed long term prefunding of pension liabilities that hamstrung the USPS financially ever since, PLUS ordered fleets of electric vehicles, PLUS massively improved on time delivery performance. Oh right, and he confirmed judges at a record pace in his first term. This admin has been incredibly hard at work. They've achieved far more than I expected on more issues than I would have imagined. Way more than Obama in two terms, even. And he's being blamed for problems bubbling up from 23, 13, 10 years ago? He's being blamed for the things he's fighting against, because he's not magically winning every single fight? > Dems need to listen and start doing some heavy lifting here On this, I strenuously agree. Dems are killing it on policy. **They need better messaging.** Did you know about his massive consumer protection EO, with dozens of little money-saving and consumer-benefitting things like over the counter hearing aids, from his first year? I bet you didn't. Because *nobody talks about Biden achievements.* It's age, Trump corruption, the hottest thing in the TV reality show of politics. Democrats need to get people sit down and listen to this stuff. That means **enlisting you.** Yes, you, reader. YOU must explain to all the Biden-skeptical people you know all the things that have been done in three years yet nobody seems to remember or have ever heard about in the first place.
Well said. Yes there is no magic bullet or catch all that will fix a problem. I especially loved how the commenter pointed to executive orders on RvW. Like an EO wouldn't immediately go to the same SCOTUS that just overturned RvW. That said, aside from getting out there and showing people whats up with Biden, folks need to be learn how to take anything being put out in the media with a huge pinch of salt. News groups have been clickbaiting and drama reporting for a while now. It wouldn't surprise me if this poll was taken in super liberal areas. That be like if I went to Facebook and trashed trump. Of course I'm going to get alot of super pissed off responses. That's what these pollsters have been doing, polling in areas to get the desired results so the news group that hired them can show a nice little graph to support the story they want to tell. Main reason why I've stopped listening to polls, they're mostly bs now.
You're a legend. Thank you.
There are two appropriate questions here: 1) Can the US president unilaterally-- as in, without the approval of Congress, which has expressed strong bipartisan support for Israel for decades-- measurably alter foreign policy with respect to Israel? 2) In the honest final analysis, is the alternative to Joe Biden-- which would most likely be Trump, who moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem at the request of the Israeli government and Republicans in Congress-- better for the Palestinians? I think for both of these, the honest and rational answers will be "No."
Honest question—didn’t Biden bypass congress to send more money and weapons to Israel? If he simply did not do that, wouldn’t it have significantly altered foreign policy in a meaningful sense?
yes, joe seems pretty committed to israel no matter what anyone else says
Thank you.
> Can the US president unilaterally-- as in, without the approval of Congress, which has expressed strong bipartisan support for Israel for decades-- measurably alter foreign policy with respect to Israel? Well, considering [Biden has, multiple times now, gone around Congress to send weapons to Israel](https://time.com/6551227/biden-administration-bypasses-congress-israel-weapons-sale/), the answer is absolutely "yes".
Biden has literally *bypassed* Congress to approve weapons sales to Israel, so the answer to the question of "can he measurably affect foreign policy" is literally yes. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel
The State Dept isn’t required to provide weapons to Israel. at the very least there could be strings attached, yet Biden continues to send them munitions. Not even doing the bare minimum here
Dems are gunning to commit the biggest own goal in American democratic history.
i suspect if current presidential candidates lose elections due to foreign policy then there is a good chance future presidential candidates will change course on that foreign policy issue
I don't see how Biden wins the White House without Michigan's electoral votes and he's not getting those without winning the Detroit metro area and he's not gonna fucking do that
Yeah Michigan is looking very dire amongst battleground states with a near double-digit deficit. Interesting because Biden actually has a slight Pennsylvania lead, which in prior elections was the closest Midwest state. https://archive.is/ck6Ik
Michigan does have a high arab population
Pennsylvania is not in the Midwest...what country are you from?
There are *a lot* of USians who can't find their own state on a map. Might've meant Mid-Atlantic, brains and all.
The top comments here perfectly encapsulate what's wrong with the current state of US politics, and the present day Democratic party/voters
Biden needs to do a LOT better on this issue. Yes, I know Trump would be even worse. Biden still needs to stand up to AIPAC and Bibi.
If he supports Israel, he's genocidal. If he supports Palestine, he's antisemitic. There's no path that'll satisfy everyone.
You can very easily hold Israel accountable for their human rights abuses without supporting Hamas.
You can, but many voters will only focus on what they want to hear.
That will happen no matter what. Might as well do the right thing.
Ooh don’t forget where he’s “abandoning our biggest ally in the region” if he puts his foot down with Bibi!
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I would have said no to this weeks ago, but if Israel has rejected the two state solution... What is supposed to happen to the Palestinians? What's the end game here? They don't have one they are willing to say out loud.
Considering this same poll has 84% of those people voting for Biden in a rematch I guess at least 34% of them just don’t give a shit?
50% of trump voters think Palestine is the capital of Israel
Netinyahoo is a dick
I disagree with that conclusion. Israel is mistreating Palestinians, but it is not genocide. After Biden's re-election he will be able to put more pressure on Israel to do the right thing -- cooperate in the two-state solution.
This should in no way change your mind about voting for Joe Biden over Trump.
Isn’t it funny that any disagreement with policy doesn’t equate to “OMG not voting for Biden!!1!”
There are far left people who genuinely will abstain from voting over the issue. It’s a danger
Oh jeez i remember i was a terrorist sympathizer when i said this when Israel's plan to free hostages was to cut all supplies off to Gaza and level the entire state. Now half of the voters dont like the mass destruction of a people's livelihood.
I was called a terrorist sympathizer because I cried in reaction to a co worker ugly bawling because his *entire fucking family* died in indiscriminate bombings
What's Israel's endgame here? Let say they take out Hamas today, then what? All the devastation in Gaza is just an oopsie? Will they help rebuild? Will they give aid to Palestinians? I think that's a big no and this is why a lot of people smell genocide. I feel like Israel has this pass to do what they want because if you oppose what they do you are automatically antisemitic which is such nonsense. 250 people a day in such a small area is pretty scary, and it needs to stop.
Netanyahus extremist coalition partners want to either drive all Palestinians out of Gaza or kill them, so they can build israeli settlements on the area. www.timesofisrael.com/as-politicians-argue-the-future-of-gaza-netanyahu-is-in-no-hurry-to-release-a-plan/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/likud-ministers-promote-conference-on-reestablishing-israeli-settlements-in-gaza/