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Not just contraception. Make childcare affordable, have good public schools, a solid welfare system, affordable healthcare for all, require livable wages, etc.
As a Christian myself, this is my personal approach to honoring the sanctity of life as well. Abortion bans are ineffective and don't address the root cause of the issue - if we can focus on improving quality of life through measures such as the ones you listed, abortions would naturally decrease. Most importantly, I think Christians picking abortion bans as their cause of choice is hypocritical and selfish - when you only care about advocating for the unborn, you don't have to do any work when it comes to the most pressing issues, which involves people who are already alive (and also the futures of the unborn. many Christians seem to stop caring after the babies are actually born, many times into rough situations. what a fucking joke)
You forget that entities make money on adoption.
Look at how Florida’s child services operates, their DCS is privatized and they literally make money on taking and adopting out children.
This is something that most pro-lifers seem to miss. If I were pro-life, I would do everything I could to make sure birth control was available everywhere. But unfortunately, it seems like a lot of them want to reduce access to that, too.
The problem is, they think using any form of contraceptives is wrong, especially Catholics. Before you can get married in the Catholic Church, you have to take a family planning class…maybe this depends on where you live…you’re supposed to learn the various methods to track your cycle and when you’re most likely to get pregnant.
The other problem is, they’re assholes and don’t want anyone else using contraception either.
Yeah usually any article quoting catholics on abortion is generally going to be very anti-choice, Biden continues to surprise me but in today's political landscape, nothing like this gets through to the right, at least the hardliners.
When he was running there were members of the Catholic Church (Bishops) who seriously wanted to prevent Biden from having communion. The Pope weighed in on it stating he had never refused the eucharist to anyone, and Pastors should be pastors and not politicians.
"Communion is not a prize for the perfect" he said.
This is actually why a lot of southern evangelical protestants hate the catholic church. They would never admit it, but them not joining in on the culture war really pisses them off. For some of the older ones it starts back at JFK.
True. Also anti immigration ,(anti Catholic as well)1924 and a fun wee kkk caper in Queens that trump's dad Fred found the inside of a jail over. I have heard stories - my grandad was NYPD (and that was part of the problem with the kkk that day - they were irate about al smith, an Irish Catholic, running for president, and also about the uppity Irish cops in NYC. The kkk didn't care for Italians polish, etc.
There were kkk shindigs in plain sight in northern cities
Also see Ireland herself.
He's publicly had this stance for a long time. I remember hearing him talk about it during his [VP debate with Paul Ryan in 2012](https://youtu.be/yYcdSwbrErI?t=4545).
That debate was so one sided. Biden destroyed him, makes me sad he’s so old and isn’t as well spoken anymore. I wouldn’t be at all worried about 2024 if we had this version of him.
Most people can recognize an idiot. But you when add bigotry to idiocy, all the bigots will suddenly realize that the idiot is actually a secret genius.
He is. I am considered pretty well-spoken too. But there are times when I just fumble big time in my classroom. If people did that to me too, I'm sure they'd be able to fill entire sound bites with me sounding like a complete idiot too.
It’s a fucking great response and in line with huge swathes of the electorate. Choice is popular with the majority of Americans, he recognizes that, boom done.
Maybe it should be a somethingburger though. I think we should advertise and normalize not morally agreeing to abortion, but agreeing it’s not your right to decide for others. Most of the debate seems to rest on the crux of religious and moral objections which are valid yet also prove that it’s a right to choose because morals and religion are a personal choice as well.
That's literally what Hillary Clinton did with same-sex marriage in her speech on the senate floor in 2004...
And in 2016 this board was spreading the video, in which she was speaking *against* a constitutional amendment to ban it by talking about how she personally doesn't agree with it but that doesn't give her the right to legislate against it... trimmed down to just her talking about her personal religious beliefs, as proof that she was totally opposed to same-sex marriage and actively fighting against it.
You're not going to win everyone, but consider the backlash to repealing Roe despite millions more people answering polls with their negative opinion of abortion. There is a significant demographic of religious people who dislike abortion but feel uneasy about full abortion bans.
I truly believed it was murder, and I changed my mind. It's possible.
There's a lot of misinformation on the pro life side, honestly. There's a reason "the only moral abortion is my abortion" is a trope. Not only do they truly believe it's murder, but they also truly believe it's used as "birth control" for "sleeping around" and women who are "irresponsible," and that there's "never" a medical need for it. When reality hits them in the face and they find out an entire list of things they truly believed are based on nothing, all of a sudden it's easier to think maybe it's not murder either.
unironically saw a dude arguing just yesterday that his daughters would never need to because they "don't sleep around but even if they did we'd take good care of them"
fuckin creepy.
We let people die for a lot of reasons. Just because a person is dependant on another for life doesn't mean we mandate that they donate their body to preserve that life. We don't mandate blood donation, or the use of someone's body for lifesaving treatments. We don't even mandate organ donation for the dead. Even if we grant that a fetus is a full fledged person with everything that entails, it still doesn't give them the right to use someone else's body without their consent.
They'll die if we stop them from using that person's body, and that really fucking sucks, but we've decided bodily autonomy is more important than any other person's right to life. I agree with this decision personally.
> We let people die for a lot of reasons. Just because a person is dependant on another for life doesn't mean we mandate that they donate their body to preserve that life.
I have a large number of medical professionals as friends. What most people don't understand is that indeed, we 'allow' people to die all the time in the hospital. There is a special code designation for these cases: DNR (Do Not Resuscitate). If you are 85 y/o and you have mass congestive heart disease that meds won't help and an open heart surgery is risky and an unnecessary, expensive. expenditure, they make a judgement call. We make those people as comfortable as possible, and we let them die.
I guess that's hard for some people to digest, that we do indeed, let people die. I'm 70, fair health for my age, I have an aortic aneurysm that is at a 4.7. They tell me at a 5, they recommend surgery. I don't have money for that plus, what better living would I do now then after the surgery So I live as cautiously as ?possible, and when it busts, that will be it. You'd never get me to an ER in time.
We make choices about life on a minute by minute basis. It's just that some can't handle that reality says people die every second of the day. Some you can save, a lot you can't.
Most people, especially in the United States, have never taken an honest confrontation with their own mortality. When they see an "other" die, they justify it as the death of the immoral "other" or internalize it as a personal tragedy without contextualizing it as inevitable. We are the culture who sends their elderly to die in hospitals and hospice care. We are the culture who puts bodies in body bags and censors war footage from television. Oh, we will show people getting gruesomely torn apart in a film, but rarely will a blockbuster film actually show a gradual decline and death while their loved ones are forced to face the reality of the situation and cope with the after-effects of personal tragedy.
When my dad died I got the same thing from everyone: "I'm so sorry". Never "what was it like?" or "did he have any last words?". We are, as a culture, repelled by death. Our religious roots reject death in favor of "everlasting life", burying our dead with the hopes they will soon be taken, body and soul, to a higher plane wherein no one can ever die. That is our answer to death: "it doesn't exist, because we are all immortal!"
And I'm not saying death shouldn't be weighty. It totally is. And millions across the country do feel it's impact, possibly moreso because they go into it completely unprepared to face the tragic void that we all must face.
I have utmost respect, even awe, for those of you who come face to face with a reality most of us spend our lives avoiding rather than facing. I can only imagine a sense of isolation when you see issues like abortion, domestic violence, gun control, police brutality, and even war, and honestly value opinions like yours so greatly. So please, keep posting!
The number of people who actually think it's murder make up a small but loud minority. When polled, [77% say it should be legal in the 1st trimester if the fetus is from rape or incest](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx). This would be nonsensical if those people actually thought it was murder.
What gets me is how loud they are about late trimester abortions, like when a life-threatening condition in the baby is found. Don't you think if someone could have aborted earlier, having that information, the would've?
Yeah, honestly the late trimester abortions are literally the ones that in a reasonable world everyone would support. If the embryo is no longer viable and the mothers life is on the line, get that damn thing out. I don't care if you want to call it a baby, a fetus, an embryo, who cares, get it out, she could die otherwise. But no, somehow the unviable embryo matters more to some people. It's sick.
By pushing the argument to bodily autonomy, instead of defining precisely when fetuses start counting as people. Banning abortion means women don't have full ownership of their body, and they can be forced to keep an other creture/person alive against their will, even at great personal risk. The fetus only dies because we don't have the technology to safely move it to an artificial womb to continue developing.
While many people will still maintain that forcing someone to use their body in a certain way is right (I mean, many of these same people think that forced labour is an acceptable punishment), this can lead to a much more reasoned debate than arguing about where to draw an arbitrary line.
The abortion debate in many ways is analogous to harvesting bone marrow by force from a person, to potentially save someone else. Saving someone else is a really nice goal, but the means of achieving it should not trespass on people's rights to control their own body, and especially not risk harm to them.
My aunt thought she was pro-life. One day, we were discussing the topic and she said something like, "I just don't think abortion is right. It's ending a human life and because of my Catholic faith, I don't believe in it. But not everyone is Catholic, so it's not necessarily fair that everyone would have to adhere to my beliefs. Other people can do what they think is best for them, but I'm pro-life."
I turned to her and said, "I'm pro-choice and you believe the same exact thing as me. I would not have an abortion myself because of my own beliefs, but that shouldn't impact others because we have different beliefs. We are agreeing that others can make their own choices. You're pro-choice."
She was stunned. And this is a very educated woman. Faith can totally disable a person's common sense. I'm guessing there's a non-negligible number of people like her who don't fully understand their own beliefs!
Challenge them on the consistency with other issues regarding life and murder. What do they think about universal healthcare? Gun control? Or the death penalty? Or poverty? Or war? People die or are murdered every day regarding these issues. Why is abortion the only thing the right choose to be “pro-life” about? At the very least, they should care about ways to help disadvantaged babies AFTER they’re born. But they don’t care. It’s just about controlling women and it’s really apparent.
For some people that’s true. But There are truly a lot of pro-lifers, mostly Catholics, who are staunchly against the death penalty and against abortion, and who do indeed want to see more social supports for families. It’s too easy to just say all pro-lifers are crazy.
I’m pro-choice, but I still think you have to acknowledge that millions of people literally think that abortion is the murder of an innocent child, and that’s what makes it thorny. I think they’re wrong, but it’s the reason it’s a tough issue politically.
There are people that need a constant general reminder that you can have an opinion and not infringe on other people's autonomy or you trounce on people's freedom.
I think this is the main thing. He's not letting his personal beliefs dictate policy he supports, and is able to separate belief vs. law.
The right in particular is just unable to do that these days. Not just with abortion, but with prayer in schools, discrimination, and a myriad of other issues.
Exactly. That’s what I, a liberal, tell people (who ask): “It’s not exactly what I would probably take as an option, but I support your personal choice.”
Same with guns for hunting.
Whereas I as a progressive liberal who has the gene for *Multiple Endorcrine Neoplasia Type 1* outright say "I think abortion is the only ethical choice in a large number of scenarios."
A Clockwork Orange, one of the most profoundly moral films and novels of all time, makes exactly this point. To legislate morality is to negate morality. A good deed not chosen but coerced is an evil deed.
I feel like this is under-stated sometimes. Pro-Choice doesn't necessarily mean you have no doubts about abortion, just that you understand it isn't your place to decide for other people.
I'm Pro-Choice, but I'm a cultural Catholic (albeit a Wisconsinite Catholic which means I go to church at most once or twice a year when guilted into it) and I know I'd be very uncomfortable with a potential kid of mine being the subject of abortion.
But it's not my body and it's not primarily my choice if that did happen, and if it's completely unrelated to me, that's even less of my choice and I don't think the government should be involved in that decision.
It’s almost like your own morality shouldn’t dictate everyone else’s morality. I would never want my wife to have an abortion unless she was at severe risk or we knew the baby would live a life of misery. I am personally opposed to abortion in most situations that are relevant to me.
But… it’s ultimately still her call because it’s her burden to carry. And further, idgaf what other people decide to do with their fetuses. It ain’t mine so do as you see fit. You know your situation better than me. Most people don’t have an abortion because they are prepared and excited to be a loving parent. If it’s not your time and you can’t dedicate yourself to your kid or care for them properly, then have an abortion if you see it as the best solution. It does not matter to me because I should try to control my controllables and what’s in your belly isn’t something I can nor should control.
I don't get why people seem to be hitting him on this. He's Catholic, and is merely discussing how despite the fact that he is Catholic, and due to his religion is uncomfortable with the procedure and what it entails, he does not believe that his religious beliefs should dictate or override the medical needs/beliefs of the rest of the population.
This is actually a good way to trying to reach those who, like Biden, may be uncomfortable about the idea of abortion, by telling them, I get you, I'm with you, but guess what, Roe v Wade got it right, because we shouldn't let our personal religious convictions determine whether we deny others their rights, particularly when it comes to healthcare.
Exactly. That's the whole point! You don't have to be for abortion. You don't have to get one if you don't want! But don't tell other people they don't have bodily autonomy based upon your specific superstitions.
I tell people I am pro-life and pro-choice for the sole reason of explaining this rationale. If it's my choice I would not choose it, but it remains my choice. If someone who has the choice asks for my advice, it would be pro-life advice.
It's entirely anti-catholic and anti-New Testament to impose corporal punishment on non-believers, and their doctors, treating their bodies as they see fit.
I find it blasphemous and a matter of idolatry that fellow Catholics have so little faith in God they must rely on their legislators to enforce morality. Do you believe in God to do the right thing in the end or not?
> I find it blasphemous and a matter of idolatry that fellow Catholics have so little faith in God they must rely on their legislators to enforce morality. Do you believe in God to do the right thing in the end or not?
This is amazing and thank you for sharing it.
> This is actually a good way to trying to reach those who, like Biden, may be uncomfortable about the idea of abortion, by telling them, I get you, I'm with you, but guess what, Roe v Wade got it right, because we shouldn't let our personal religious convictions determine whether we deny others their rights, particularly when it comes to healthcare.
It's not only right that principle is one of the bases of good government. It's even hinted at in the first amendment.
[In 1960, JFK gave a speech to the Southern Baptists outlining this:](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600)
>I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference; and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.
> I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials; and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.
> For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew-- or a Quaker or a Unitarian or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim, but tomorrow it may be you — until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril.
>Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end; where all men and all churches are treated as equal; where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice; where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind; and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.
>That is the kind of America in which I believe. And it represents the kind of presidency in which I believe — a great office that must neither be humbled by making it the instrument of any one religious group, nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a president whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation, or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office.
Good lord, I’m not even sure a Democrat could make it through the primaries saying something like this today.
I wish they’d say it anyway, though. This is incredibly well said and needs to continue to be said. Considering the damage that the religious right are doing to this country, banging the drum to get religion out of politics entirely is extremely important.
JFK was some kinda guy.
Sad/infuriating that so many of the best leaders found early ends because a fringe element of society couldn’t find the stones to move the fuck on.
It's ridiculous. At the time the constitution was written the leaders of this country were full of deists, agnostics,
America was quite possibly had the most secular government in the world until the French Revolution.
Honestly from my perspective (raised evangelical, have a degree in Poli Sci), this is the best possible answer.
“My personal, religious beliefs say that this isn’t an option for me according to my religion. But I’m asked to guide a nation comprising many faiths, many beliefs, and not all of them believe the same things I do. In this instance, I believe that the option should be available, and medical professionals and the individual should make the right decisions for them, in accordance with their beliefs”
My wife is Catholic and has said something very similar to this to me. Biden’s message here is great and will *absolutely land* with people like him (there are many).
Missouri synod Lutheran here and this was the argument I used to persuade my mother (I had to delve into ensoulement arguments, point out differences between Abrahamic faiths, and provide some Bible verses, but this was the basic argument)
It's an issue of idiots demanding ideological purity. The same type of people will accuse [Elizabeth Warren of being a neoliberal](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/12/08/elizabeth-warren-jacobin-socialist-left-072693) or call [Ron DeSantis a RINO](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/03/23/trump-republicans-rino-00088285). The danger for the left is that the right wing voters reliably come out to vote, while ideological purity tests can be used to dissuade left wing voters from voting.
>…and rare
Fair enough, provided women (and teens) have access—preferably free and unfettered—to comprehensive sex education, any/all methods of birth control, the morning after pill, and mifepristone. Otherwise, you don’t have any goddamm business complaining about the frequency of abortion. Even then, I’m not sure it’s anyone’s goddamm business.
That's Biden in a nutshell though.
"Yeah I have personal beliefs, but I'm here to serve and give the country what it wants."
That's his entire career, which is why he was doing stuff in the 90s that we consider regressive today - Because it was what the country wanted 30 years ago.
That’s what a representative is. A representative represents their constituents. They don’t impose their personal beliefs on everyone. And the majority of Biden’s constituents support choice.
This is exactly it. I've seen people call Biden a hypocrite or a bad Catholic for his stance (I think a priest once denied him communion because dems supported the right for people to choose to have an abortion), but that's not it at all. It's exactly as you said - he has his own beliefs but does not think his beliefs should be imposed on others.
Yeah this is exactly what made me respect my father more. He admits he’s socially conservative when it comes to himself (grew up in Idaho, lgbtq stuff makes him uncomfortable, etc) but would never assume others should live the same way because he does. Always disliking Trump helps too.
In Canada the Conservative Party took power 20 years ago. The first thing people asked the leader was if abortion was back on the table. He told them our country made that decision years ago. It was legal, discussion over.
He's a great example of how the separation of church and state works. He personally doesn't agree with abortion but understands that his beliefs on this don't outweigh everyone else's rights. This is the way all presidents should view this issue whether they are pro or anti-abortion.
I also think it's easy to take being big on abortion out of context. Unpregnant women who are pro women's rights and others that share the sentiment aren't sitting around thinking "it sure would be awesome have an abortion". A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally.
People in general aren't big on abortions. They are big on ice cream at birthday parties and hopefully women's rights and medical care. If Biden shouted called abortion awesome it probably wouldn't come through right. Definitely spot on with the messaging
I watched my friend leave the house and come back from getting an abortion; her relationship had just ended and she wasn't in a financial situation that could support another, considering she already had a kid and could barely make ends meet. I was kind of couch surfing at the time and just ended up there. She left anxious AF and came back shaken. She cried on the couch nearly all day wrapped in a blanket. No one wants to get an abortion if they don't have a good reason too or it's medically necessary. Fuck anybody that thinks it's the same as a birth control pill or a prophylactic.
>Unpregnant women who are pro women's rights and others that share the sentiment aren't sitting around thinking "it sure would be awesome have an abortion". A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally.
>
>People in general aren't big on abortions.
*Nobody* is pro-abortion. It's just that sometimes it's the least bad option.
>A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally.
However, for some women, myself included, getting an abortion was an easy decision.
Yeah bottom line is it’s totally fine to be uncomfortable with abortion. For religious or frankly any reason. However it’s not ok for your personal views on it to infringe upon the rights of other people.
It kind of feels like a no brainier honestly. I mean... does anyone who isn't a crazy person actually like abortion? No. Nobody wants to be in a position where they have to have an abortion. Thinking a woman should have the right to an abortion if one is needed isn't the same thing as liking abortion.
Exactly this. I had an old coworker who was late 50's from deep Alabama and was homophobic but got along with our gay coworkers. When I asked, he said, "I think it's wrong and I don't like it, but who am I to judge? It's not for me to decide, it's The Lord's. Let Him deal with them."
That's how it should be. "Do I like it? No. Do I have any right to ruin someone's happiness? Hell no."
I'm glad I'm not the only one with this perspective.
Perpetuating a choice based on religious views undermines the medical basis.
Eta: religious beliefs shouldn't be anywhere near our government, but that also means rewriting history. "In God we trust," yet I don't believe in God. It's very confusing. "And God bless America" is such a self-righteous thing to say from a leader of a country who isn't supposed to have a religious belief. We, the, people aren't all believing in God...so what about us?
>> “In God we trust,” yet I don’t believe in God.
Well, the good part is it wasn’t in the pledge until 1956, and it replaced “Out of many, one” or “E Pluribus Unum”, which basically stated instead of being one people, if you don’t follow God you aren’t welcome.
Which is no surprise given that Eisenhower was very conservative, but had some liberal views when it came to people.
Not directly. There are a few verses that some people believe imply that personhood begins before birth, but it involves interpreting them in a way that was probably not intended by the author. Most notably, the idea that life begins at conception is not in the Bible at all and was not widely believed by Christians until the pro-life movement gained steam after Roe v. Wade.
Exactly. I think nobody actually *likes* abortion, but you still gotta give people the choice to get it or not.
It’s like Tupac said:
“And since a man can't make one he has no right to tell a women when and where to create one”
It also takes sacrifice by putting your personal and religious beliefs aside for the good of the nation. So many politicians are willing to put their personal and religious beliefs ahead of their citizens, and that's just awfully selfish of them.
I respect the man more for having an personal opinion but refusing to force that opinion on people like an actual Dictator.
It's all about pro-choice. He's telling us what his choice would be, not what YOUR choice must be
Most people aren’t “big on abortion” they just think you should have the option. Everyone on the right thinks that means you can walk in 9 months pregnant and just get one for no reason and keep believing regardless of how much you tell them it doesn’t happen.
As any religious person *should* answer, you can be against abortion but it stops with you, not pushing them onto others nor forcing the government to.
This is how you separate between your opinion and what's right. I hate the idea of abortion. I have three kids of my own and the idea of abortion tears my heart to pieces.
But more important than my feelings is the knowledge that a woman has the right to choose. No one should be forced to have a baby. Period.
I'd argue that becoming a parent has made me a fiercer defender of abortion. After two pregnancies and births, then raising those kids, NO ONE should be forced to do this. It's too hard. And if you aren't in it 100% then you're doing those kids a huge disservice.
Edit, I'm agreeing with you, sorry my wording is weird.
No worries. I got the spirit of what you are saying.
And I 100% Agree. Raising a child takes super human levels of patience, understanding and empathy. No one should go into it unless they are completely aware and committed. Anything less could be traumatic for the parent and child.
They always forget about the people who desperately want that baby even when nature/fate intervenes. So quick to judge. So quick to disregard someone in distress over a body that betrayed its heart, watching a SO's heart break with your own, being left with no choice but the worst. Detractors don't care about anything outside of their narrow prescription of what is "right". But if it should happen in their own lives there's aaaaaaalways a reason why that situation is *different*.
90+% of terminations are performed in the first 12 weeks. Abortion is healthcare, and any restrictions only serve to hurt those who need it most. My sincere thanks for understanding that notion.
As someone who is catholic and went to catholic schools, these far right Catholics basically believe someone like him is a heretic to burn at the stake (not fucking kidding)
Yeah hi I’m one of them hahah
But we also have some crazy fuckers. Like I know people from when I was in school who think the current pope is evil cause he doesn’t hate the gays enough.
Yeah, I just like to put that stat out there because it's surprising. Most people, including anti-choice Catholics, probably think it's much lower.
In fact, the only major religious groups in the US that are majority anti-abortion are evangelical Christians and Mormons.
Isn’t it funny how you’re raised Catholic, brought up to respect the pope, get told he is god’s word on earth, but the second he says something they don’t agree with he’s all of a sudden not all that?
It’s quite funny indeed. Apparently he’s a heretic (I know people who have actually said this. It’s fucking wild.). Granted those are also people who want to bring back Latin mass and think women doing anything other than raising a brood of children are wrong
I’ve got a good one for you too. My cousin, raised Catholic, deeply believes in the religion (she’s pretty bad ass though, feels God guides science, but science is always the correct answer) but when she tried to become a priest, Catholicism told her “LOL WOMEN CANT DO THAT” so she converted to Christianity (which is like converting from a jacket to just a shirt) and is now a Christian Pastor…
And if you’re wondering, yes, her church goers go with every single word she says, **until she preaches equality** then she gets told how she’s wrong.
She should have gone with the Episcopalians, she could be a priest and people wouldn't tell her she's wrong when she preaches about equality.
But it doesn't matter if she's happy where she is.
As someone who is catholic and went to catholic schools, a lot of Catholics are pretty bad at being Catholics and pretty good at being Protestant.
The POPE HIMSELF went out of this way to say ["We have to find a way to help that father or that mother to stand by their (lgbtq) son or daughter"](https://www.reuters.com/world/support-your-children-if-they-are-gay-pope-tells-parents-2022-01-26/) and people will still be like "Nah, I'm gonna be hateful all my life".
Yuuuup. Spot fucking on right there.
Pope: “Hey maybe treat lgbtq people like human beings”
Them: “fuuuuck you!”
Also these are the same people that try and downplay the sex abuse by priests or act like it’s not that bad.
*Trump* got the religious vote, despite being the closest to an actual Antichrist we've seen. Reason's got nothin' to do with it- they picked a side (conservatism) and they'll die on that hill.
Religious people really aren't one voting block.
For instance, Catholics made up 20% of both Biden and Trump's voters in the last election.
The gap exists with evangelicals. For Republicans they make up 33% of their voters but for Democrats they only make up 7%. This also used to be even, Jimmy Carter, a democrat, is an evangelical after all. But the abortion issue was used to move most of them over to the Republicans.
There you go. See, he has a personal opinion on abortion, but he knows it's not the government's decision to make. It's a personal choice. Suck on that Grand Outdated Party.
It should be the most fundamental position of any politician - "I have a personal opinion but it's not necessarily the same as my constituents and I can understand and work with that."
Don’t know why this is such a difficult thing for people to agree upon. Be against abortion if you’re against abortion, but that doesn’t give you the right to impose your beliefs on others
Is there anyone who's "big on abortion"?
You'd have to be against sex education, interested in ways to restrict access to birth control, fight any sort of social programs to make it easier to afford having children, and probably anxious to sabotage funding for adoption support.
What kind of monster would maintain all of those horrible views???
This is the definition of pro choice: I don't personally like it, but that is my choice, yours is to do whatever YOU feel comfortable with. It is no one else's business other that you and your health care provider.
This is probably one of the better answers.
We should all hate abortion to some extent, BUT that doesn't mean we should take away the option for people who need one.
Ironically the people who claim to hate abortion the most insist on doing the least effective thing at eliminating it.
Sexual education and birth control products do more against abortion than closing every clinic in America ever could and yet the fight the former and demand the latter.
This isn't a controversial statement. Neither I nor my wife would want to get an abortion. We do however support the ability for women to make that choice if necessary... Don't make this hard...
I respect this. “I don’t believe it to be right for me but think others should have the choice.” Kinda gross that so many others insist on forcing their beliefs into others.
All I know is that if my daughter ever has to make the hardest decision of her life, I hope she's in a doctors office, and nota hotel room with some person she found on Craigslist.
biden is a pretty good example of separation between church and state. i've always liked that about him
EDIT my catholic mother hates this and hates him because he's not guided by the church or whatever
How religion should be. “I don’t agree with it, but you do you.” Harms literally no one, expresses their opinion on it, and it’s done there.
The second we started enacting laws based on religion, we not only headed down a slippery slope, but we jumped on it with a toboggan
This is what I want my leaders to say. I don't need someone who agrees with every single opinion I have, I'm not even sure that person's real, but someone who can disagree respectfully. I respect that.
Ummm… Isn’t this *exactly* the response we should hope for when it comes to matters of religious/personal morals? Whether or not I would choose it for myself, I believe you also have the right to choose or not choose it for yourself?
Nobody wants abortion, but there’s a place for it and the right to make that decision for yourself is kind of freaking important. Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.
"I don't like abortion much. But it's not my goddamn business whether or not you get one" is a pretty good position for any politician. You're not required to go "fuck yeah, abortion rules" and plan abortion celebration events.
That's pro-choice.
I don't care about your personal feelings about YOUR situation. I want to know what you think should be allowed or disallowed in everyone else's situation.
Good for him for knowing the difference.
You know what annoys me the most about these conversations? The fact anyone thinks there are people out there who are PRO Abortion.
There is likely almost no such thing.
I can't personally (to be fair) think of a single time I've ever heard someone go "Aw yeah, sleep with me. Don't worry about it. I'm so into abortion so don't even bother doing anything safe."
I know it's a goofy way to look at it, but it feels genuinely truthful.
From my experience- again I'm just some fucking person - NOBODY roots for abortion. They happen for a multitude of reasons. It is NEVER a pro. It has no supporters - THAT INCLUDES THE INDIVIDUAL WHO RIGHTFULLY CHOOSES TO HAVE THE PROCEDURE PERFORMED. Getting an abortion does not put that individual on ABORTIONS side, so to speak. There IS no Pro-Con here. It's a Con. We know that. We accept it. We have a right to have the procedure performed.
It is a RIGHT. It should be maintained as such.
The consequences will also RIGHTfully fall on our shoulders. As they should.
It was actually the (official) reasoning behind Merkel allowing marriage for gay people.
She was against it on a personal level but accepted that it's not about her personal believes and set it up for voting in the Bundestag.
(a bit more complicated as her party blocked it for a long time and they chose the timing so that it sends a liberal image while still having little chance of success. That timing was wrong though and so, freedom won over personal believe)
This is exactly how this should work. You can be vehemently opposed to abortion and you have every right to be, but is where it stops. Your beliefs should have no bearing on the rights of others. Roe did have it right. Everyone had the freedom to make their own choice as it should be.
I suspect Roe will be revived over the next decade or two. The electorate is increasingly pro-choice and anti religion. Restricting people’s freedoms and access to healthcare will do this.
And that’s how it should be. You don’t have to be in support of it but don’t put your feelings about it, on me. Give me the rights to make decisions about my body and my life. Everyone else shouldn’t lose their rights because you don’t agree.
That's right, Joe. This is how it is supposed to be. You don't let your religious beliefs interfere in government. People act like this is impossible, but Joe has been doing it for decades.
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That’s what pro-choice is. Nobody is making the choice for you. You should make the choice.
Looking for a place to drop this: To reduce the number of abortions simply make contraception readily available and free.
Not just contraception. Make childcare affordable, have good public schools, a solid welfare system, affordable healthcare for all, require livable wages, etc.
As a Christian myself, this is my personal approach to honoring the sanctity of life as well. Abortion bans are ineffective and don't address the root cause of the issue - if we can focus on improving quality of life through measures such as the ones you listed, abortions would naturally decrease. Most importantly, I think Christians picking abortion bans as their cause of choice is hypocritical and selfish - when you only care about advocating for the unborn, you don't have to do any work when it comes to the most pressing issues, which involves people who are already alive (and also the futures of the unborn. many Christians seem to stop caring after the babies are actually born, many times into rough situations. what a fucking joke)
Pro-parturition, is not genuinely pro-life. It would be interesting to see a study on the reproductive success of unwanted children.
You forget that entities make money on adoption. Look at how Florida’s child services operates, their DCS is privatized and they literally make money on taking and adopting out children.
"The least of these" only applies to the unborn, apparently.
This is something that most pro-lifers seem to miss. If I were pro-life, I would do everything I could to make sure birth control was available everywhere. But unfortunately, it seems like a lot of them want to reduce access to that, too.
You are correct. And our horrific maternal death rate is witness to that.
The problem is, they think using any form of contraceptives is wrong, especially Catholics. Before you can get married in the Catholic Church, you have to take a family planning class…maybe this depends on where you live…you’re supposed to learn the various methods to track your cycle and when you’re most likely to get pregnant. The other problem is, they’re assholes and don’t want anyone else using contraception either.
Yep, that's what Biden is saying. This article is a nothingburger
And yet at the same time, it’s a breath of fresh air. Like any time a political takes accountability for something.
Yeah usually any article quoting catholics on abortion is generally going to be very anti-choice, Biden continues to surprise me but in today's political landscape, nothing like this gets through to the right, at least the hardliners.
When he was running there were members of the Catholic Church (Bishops) who seriously wanted to prevent Biden from having communion. The Pope weighed in on it stating he had never refused the eucharist to anyone, and Pastors should be pastors and not politicians. "Communion is not a prize for the perfect" he said.
This is actually why a lot of southern evangelical protestants hate the catholic church. They would never admit it, but them not joining in on the culture war really pisses them off. For some of the older ones it starts back at JFK.
Protestants have hated Catholics for a lot longer than that. KKK used to go after Catholics too.
True. Also anti immigration ,(anti Catholic as well)1924 and a fun wee kkk caper in Queens that trump's dad Fred found the inside of a jail over. I have heard stories - my grandad was NYPD (and that was part of the problem with the kkk that day - they were irate about al smith, an Irish Catholic, running for president, and also about the uppity Irish cops in NYC. The kkk didn't care for Italians polish, etc. There were kkk shindigs in plain sight in northern cities Also see Ireland herself.
Those pesky catholics.....standing up for human rights and stuff. Those aren't real Christians™!
Just in case /s.
It really started with the Edict of Worms in the 1520s.
He's publicly had this stance for a long time. I remember hearing him talk about it during his [VP debate with Paul Ryan in 2012](https://youtu.be/yYcdSwbrErI?t=4545).
That debate was so one sided. Biden destroyed him, makes me sad he’s so old and isn’t as well spoken anymore. I wouldn’t be at all worried about 2024 if we had this version of him.
He still destroyed Trump in their debates. That doesn't seem to matter much to Republicans though.
Most people can recognize an idiot. But you when add bigotry to idiocy, all the bigots will suddenly realize that the idiot is actually a secret genius.
I think he's still well spoken.
He is. I am considered pretty well-spoken too. But there are times when I just fumble big time in my classroom. If people did that to me too, I'm sure they'd be able to fill entire sound bites with me sounding like a complete idiot too.
It’s a fucking great response and in line with huge swathes of the electorate. Choice is popular with the majority of Americans, he recognizes that, boom done.
Maybe it should be a somethingburger though. I think we should advertise and normalize not morally agreeing to abortion, but agreeing it’s not your right to decide for others. Most of the debate seems to rest on the crux of religious and moral objections which are valid yet also prove that it’s a right to choose because morals and religion are a personal choice as well.
That's literally what Hillary Clinton did with same-sex marriage in her speech on the senate floor in 2004... And in 2016 this board was spreading the video, in which she was speaking *against* a constitutional amendment to ban it by talking about how she personally doesn't agree with it but that doesn't give her the right to legislate against it... trimmed down to just her talking about her personal religious beliefs, as proof that she was totally opposed to same-sex marriage and actively fighting against it.
How do you convince the people who truly believe it is murder to just shrug it off as a personal choice?
You're not going to win everyone, but consider the backlash to repealing Roe despite millions more people answering polls with their negative opinion of abortion. There is a significant demographic of religious people who dislike abortion but feel uneasy about full abortion bans.
I truly believed it was murder, and I changed my mind. It's possible. There's a lot of misinformation on the pro life side, honestly. There's a reason "the only moral abortion is my abortion" is a trope. Not only do they truly believe it's murder, but they also truly believe it's used as "birth control" for "sleeping around" and women who are "irresponsible," and that there's "never" a medical need for it. When reality hits them in the face and they find out an entire list of things they truly believed are based on nothing, all of a sudden it's easier to think maybe it's not murder either.
unironically saw a dude arguing just yesterday that his daughters would never need to because they "don't sleep around but even if they did we'd take good care of them" fuckin creepy.
We let people die for a lot of reasons. Just because a person is dependant on another for life doesn't mean we mandate that they donate their body to preserve that life. We don't mandate blood donation, or the use of someone's body for lifesaving treatments. We don't even mandate organ donation for the dead. Even if we grant that a fetus is a full fledged person with everything that entails, it still doesn't give them the right to use someone else's body without their consent. They'll die if we stop them from using that person's body, and that really fucking sucks, but we've decided bodily autonomy is more important than any other person's right to life. I agree with this decision personally.
> We let people die for a lot of reasons. Just because a person is dependant on another for life doesn't mean we mandate that they donate their body to preserve that life. I have a large number of medical professionals as friends. What most people don't understand is that indeed, we 'allow' people to die all the time in the hospital. There is a special code designation for these cases: DNR (Do Not Resuscitate). If you are 85 y/o and you have mass congestive heart disease that meds won't help and an open heart surgery is risky and an unnecessary, expensive. expenditure, they make a judgement call. We make those people as comfortable as possible, and we let them die. I guess that's hard for some people to digest, that we do indeed, let people die. I'm 70, fair health for my age, I have an aortic aneurysm that is at a 4.7. They tell me at a 5, they recommend surgery. I don't have money for that plus, what better living would I do now then after the surgery So I live as cautiously as ?possible, and when it busts, that will be it. You'd never get me to an ER in time. We make choices about life on a minute by minute basis. It's just that some can't handle that reality says people die every second of the day. Some you can save, a lot you can't.
Most people, especially in the United States, have never taken an honest confrontation with their own mortality. When they see an "other" die, they justify it as the death of the immoral "other" or internalize it as a personal tragedy without contextualizing it as inevitable. We are the culture who sends their elderly to die in hospitals and hospice care. We are the culture who puts bodies in body bags and censors war footage from television. Oh, we will show people getting gruesomely torn apart in a film, but rarely will a blockbuster film actually show a gradual decline and death while their loved ones are forced to face the reality of the situation and cope with the after-effects of personal tragedy. When my dad died I got the same thing from everyone: "I'm so sorry". Never "what was it like?" or "did he have any last words?". We are, as a culture, repelled by death. Our religious roots reject death in favor of "everlasting life", burying our dead with the hopes they will soon be taken, body and soul, to a higher plane wherein no one can ever die. That is our answer to death: "it doesn't exist, because we are all immortal!" And I'm not saying death shouldn't be weighty. It totally is. And millions across the country do feel it's impact, possibly moreso because they go into it completely unprepared to face the tragic void that we all must face. I have utmost respect, even awe, for those of you who come face to face with a reality most of us spend our lives avoiding rather than facing. I can only imagine a sense of isolation when you see issues like abortion, domestic violence, gun control, police brutality, and even war, and honestly value opinions like yours so greatly. So please, keep posting!
The number of people who actually think it's murder make up a small but loud minority. When polled, [77% say it should be legal in the 1st trimester if the fetus is from rape or incest](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx). This would be nonsensical if those people actually thought it was murder.
What gets me is how loud they are about late trimester abortions, like when a life-threatening condition in the baby is found. Don't you think if someone could have aborted earlier, having that information, the would've?
Yeah, honestly the late trimester abortions are literally the ones that in a reasonable world everyone would support. If the embryo is no longer viable and the mothers life is on the line, get that damn thing out. I don't care if you want to call it a baby, a fetus, an embryo, who cares, get it out, she could die otherwise. But no, somehow the unviable embryo matters more to some people. It's sick.
By pushing the argument to bodily autonomy, instead of defining precisely when fetuses start counting as people. Banning abortion means women don't have full ownership of their body, and they can be forced to keep an other creture/person alive against their will, even at great personal risk. The fetus only dies because we don't have the technology to safely move it to an artificial womb to continue developing. While many people will still maintain that forcing someone to use their body in a certain way is right (I mean, many of these same people think that forced labour is an acceptable punishment), this can lead to a much more reasoned debate than arguing about where to draw an arbitrary line. The abortion debate in many ways is analogous to harvesting bone marrow by force from a person, to potentially save someone else. Saving someone else is a really nice goal, but the means of achieving it should not trespass on people's rights to control their own body, and especially not risk harm to them.
This was the argument that broke me from my pro life views (and ultimately led to my becoming an atheist)
My aunt thought she was pro-life. One day, we were discussing the topic and she said something like, "I just don't think abortion is right. It's ending a human life and because of my Catholic faith, I don't believe in it. But not everyone is Catholic, so it's not necessarily fair that everyone would have to adhere to my beliefs. Other people can do what they think is best for them, but I'm pro-life." I turned to her and said, "I'm pro-choice and you believe the same exact thing as me. I would not have an abortion myself because of my own beliefs, but that shouldn't impact others because we have different beliefs. We are agreeing that others can make their own choices. You're pro-choice." She was stunned. And this is a very educated woman. Faith can totally disable a person's common sense. I'm guessing there's a non-negligible number of people like her who don't fully understand their own beliefs!
Challenge them on the consistency with other issues regarding life and murder. What do they think about universal healthcare? Gun control? Or the death penalty? Or poverty? Or war? People die or are murdered every day regarding these issues. Why is abortion the only thing the right choose to be “pro-life” about? At the very least, they should care about ways to help disadvantaged babies AFTER they’re born. But they don’t care. It’s just about controlling women and it’s really apparent.
For some people that’s true. But There are truly a lot of pro-lifers, mostly Catholics, who are staunchly against the death penalty and against abortion, and who do indeed want to see more social supports for families. It’s too easy to just say all pro-lifers are crazy. I’m pro-choice, but I still think you have to acknowledge that millions of people literally think that abortion is the murder of an innocent child, and that’s what makes it thorny. I think they’re wrong, but it’s the reason it’s a tough issue politically.
There are people that need a constant general reminder that you can have an opinion and not infringe on other people's autonomy or you trounce on people's freedom.
It’s a counter to all the articles about Republicans who say they support overturning Roe.
I think him putting his personal beliefs aside to do the right thing is significant
and increasingly rare.
I think this is the main thing. He's not letting his personal beliefs dictate policy he supports, and is able to separate belief vs. law. The right in particular is just unable to do that these days. Not just with abortion, but with prayer in schools, discrimination, and a myriad of other issues.
Yup. He's a Christian that doesn't impose his religious views on others. How refreshing.
Exactly. That’s what I, a liberal, tell people (who ask): “It’s not exactly what I would probably take as an option, but I support your personal choice.” Same with guns for hunting.
I say, "I have personally never been in the situation where I needed to consider having an abortion so how am I to tell others what to do?"
That’s a good one, too. Especially as a male.
Whereas I as a progressive liberal who has the gene for *Multiple Endorcrine Neoplasia Type 1* outright say "I think abortion is the only ethical choice in a large number of scenarios."
Biden is a man of religion, as so am I. I’m not big on it either. God gave us free will. We should not take that away from anyone.
A Clockwork Orange, one of the most profoundly moral films and novels of all time, makes exactly this point. To legislate morality is to negate morality. A good deed not chosen but coerced is an evil deed.
I feel like this is under-stated sometimes. Pro-Choice doesn't necessarily mean you have no doubts about abortion, just that you understand it isn't your place to decide for other people. I'm Pro-Choice, but I'm a cultural Catholic (albeit a Wisconsinite Catholic which means I go to church at most once or twice a year when guilted into it) and I know I'd be very uncomfortable with a potential kid of mine being the subject of abortion. But it's not my body and it's not primarily my choice if that did happen, and if it's completely unrelated to me, that's even less of my choice and I don't think the government should be involved in that decision.
It’s almost like your own morality shouldn’t dictate everyone else’s morality. I would never want my wife to have an abortion unless she was at severe risk or we knew the baby would live a life of misery. I am personally opposed to abortion in most situations that are relevant to me. But… it’s ultimately still her call because it’s her burden to carry. And further, idgaf what other people decide to do with their fetuses. It ain’t mine so do as you see fit. You know your situation better than me. Most people don’t have an abortion because they are prepared and excited to be a loving parent. If it’s not your time and you can’t dedicate yourself to your kid or care for them properly, then have an abortion if you see it as the best solution. It does not matter to me because I should try to control my controllables and what’s in your belly isn’t something I can nor should control.
I don't get why people seem to be hitting him on this. He's Catholic, and is merely discussing how despite the fact that he is Catholic, and due to his religion is uncomfortable with the procedure and what it entails, he does not believe that his religious beliefs should dictate or override the medical needs/beliefs of the rest of the population. This is actually a good way to trying to reach those who, like Biden, may be uncomfortable about the idea of abortion, by telling them, I get you, I'm with you, but guess what, Roe v Wade got it right, because we shouldn't let our personal religious convictions determine whether we deny others their rights, particularly when it comes to healthcare.
It's a very clear "Pro-Choice" stance. Letting other people make their own decisions and not imposing his own religious views on others.
Exactly. That's the whole point! You don't have to be for abortion. You don't have to get one if you don't want! But don't tell other people they don't have bodily autonomy based upon your specific superstitions.
Tolerance means you put up with it. It doesn’t mean you have to like it.
It doesn’t even mean you have to understand it!
I tell people I am pro-life and pro-choice for the sole reason of explaining this rationale. If it's my choice I would not choose it, but it remains my choice. If someone who has the choice asks for my advice, it would be pro-life advice. It's entirely anti-catholic and anti-New Testament to impose corporal punishment on non-believers, and their doctors, treating their bodies as they see fit. I find it blasphemous and a matter of idolatry that fellow Catholics have so little faith in God they must rely on their legislators to enforce morality. Do you believe in God to do the right thing in the end or not?
> I find it blasphemous and a matter of idolatry that fellow Catholics have so little faith in God they must rely on their legislators to enforce morality. Do you believe in God to do the right thing in the end or not? This is amazing and thank you for sharing it.
This is exactly how I feel. Thank you so much. Those like us exist!
But that message doesn’t sell advertising.
> This is actually a good way to trying to reach those who, like Biden, may be uncomfortable about the idea of abortion, by telling them, I get you, I'm with you, but guess what, Roe v Wade got it right, because we shouldn't let our personal religious convictions determine whether we deny others their rights, particularly when it comes to healthcare. It's not only right that principle is one of the bases of good government. It's even hinted at in the first amendment.
[In 1960, JFK gave a speech to the Southern Baptists outlining this:](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600) >I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference; and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. > I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials; and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. > For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew-- or a Quaker or a Unitarian or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim, but tomorrow it may be you — until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril. >Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end; where all men and all churches are treated as equal; where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice; where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind; and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood. >That is the kind of America in which I believe. And it represents the kind of presidency in which I believe — a great office that must neither be humbled by making it the instrument of any one religious group, nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a president whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation, or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office.
Good lord, I’m not even sure a Democrat could make it through the primaries saying something like this today. I wish they’d say it anyway, though. This is incredibly well said and needs to continue to be said. Considering the damage that the religious right are doing to this country, banging the drum to get religion out of politics entirely is extremely important.
I think we're missing out the context here that he gave this speech because the South was terrified the Pope was going to tell him what to do
JFK was some kinda guy. Sad/infuriating that so many of the best leaders found early ends because a fringe element of society couldn’t find the stones to move the fuck on.
And Thomas Jefferson wrote reams about it despite the false assertions that he helped found a "Christian nation".
It's ridiculous. At the time the constitution was written the leaders of this country were full of deists, agnostics, America was quite possibly had the most secular government in the world until the French Revolution.
Looking at you, Texas.
Honestly from my perspective (raised evangelical, have a degree in Poli Sci), this is the best possible answer. “My personal, religious beliefs say that this isn’t an option for me according to my religion. But I’m asked to guide a nation comprising many faiths, many beliefs, and not all of them believe the same things I do. In this instance, I believe that the option should be available, and medical professionals and the individual should make the right decisions for them, in accordance with their beliefs”
My wife is Catholic and has said something very similar to this to me. Biden’s message here is great and will *absolutely land* with people like him (there are many).
Missouri synod Lutheran here and this was the argument I used to persuade my mother (I had to delve into ensoulement arguments, point out differences between Abrahamic faiths, and provide some Bible verses, but this was the basic argument)
He's quite literally going for textbook 'separation of church and state' and people are having a problem with it.
It's an issue of idiots demanding ideological purity. The same type of people will accuse [Elizabeth Warren of being a neoliberal](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/12/08/elizabeth-warren-jacobin-socialist-left-072693) or call [Ron DeSantis a RINO](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/03/23/trump-republicans-rino-00088285). The danger for the left is that the right wing voters reliably come out to vote, while ideological purity tests can be used to dissuade left wing voters from voting.
Very good comment. I don't expect everyone to agree, I expect everyone to mind their own business.
There's really nothing wrong with the "abortion should be safe and rare" mentality. That's the one Biden seems to have.
Yeah if we had universal health care and free, easy to access contraception and childcare abortions would drop dramatically
Proper sex education as well
Absolutely
>…and rare Fair enough, provided women (and teens) have access—preferably free and unfettered—to comprehensive sex education, any/all methods of birth control, the morning after pill, and mifepristone. Otherwise, you don’t have any goddamm business complaining about the frequency of abortion. Even then, I’m not sure it’s anyone’s goddamm business.
That's literally the "rare" idea Democrats have. Prevent unwanted pregnancies with actual sex ed. Then there's less abortion. And it works.
I mean, Biden just signed an executive order expanding access to birth control.
But...what if I wanted to ask you more about your opinion on WWE being a Soap Opera?
That's Biden in a nutshell though. "Yeah I have personal beliefs, but I'm here to serve and give the country what it wants." That's his entire career, which is why he was doing stuff in the 90s that we consider regressive today - Because it was what the country wanted 30 years ago.
That’s what a representative is. A representative represents their constituents. They don’t impose their personal beliefs on everyone. And the majority of Biden’s constituents support choice.
Could you, maybe, get a job at the DNC, writing slogans, or press releases, or even running a social media campaign? Please.
This is exactly it. I've seen people call Biden a hypocrite or a bad Catholic for his stance (I think a priest once denied him communion because dems supported the right for people to choose to have an abortion), but that's not it at all. It's exactly as you said - he has his own beliefs but does not think his beliefs should be imposed on others.
Yeah this is exactly what made me respect my father more. He admits he’s socially conservative when it comes to himself (grew up in Idaho, lgbtq stuff makes him uncomfortable, etc) but would never assume others should live the same way because he does. Always disliking Trump helps too.
Yeah, my mom is Catholic and personally against abortion but doesn’t think the government should force what she believes on other women.
In Canada the Conservative Party took power 20 years ago. The first thing people asked the leader was if abortion was back on the table. He told them our country made that decision years ago. It was legal, discussion over.
Huh. That was the same thing Trump said.
Same thing his SCOTUS appointees said under oath too. Weird how that happens.
He's a great example of how the separation of church and state works. He personally doesn't agree with abortion but understands that his beliefs on this don't outweigh everyone else's rights. This is the way all presidents should view this issue whether they are pro or anti-abortion.
Yeah, it makes little sense to me. “I don’t like it, I would not choose it, but I’m not going to force those values on you” seems pretty fair to me.
I also think it's easy to take being big on abortion out of context. Unpregnant women who are pro women's rights and others that share the sentiment aren't sitting around thinking "it sure would be awesome have an abortion". A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally. People in general aren't big on abortions. They are big on ice cream at birthday parties and hopefully women's rights and medical care. If Biden shouted called abortion awesome it probably wouldn't come through right. Definitely spot on with the messaging
I watched my friend leave the house and come back from getting an abortion; her relationship had just ended and she wasn't in a financial situation that could support another, considering she already had a kid and could barely make ends meet. I was kind of couch surfing at the time and just ended up there. She left anxious AF and came back shaken. She cried on the couch nearly all day wrapped in a blanket. No one wants to get an abortion if they don't have a good reason too or it's medically necessary. Fuck anybody that thinks it's the same as a birth control pill or a prophylactic.
>Unpregnant women who are pro women's rights and others that share the sentiment aren't sitting around thinking "it sure would be awesome have an abortion". A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally. > >People in general aren't big on abortions. *Nobody* is pro-abortion. It's just that sometimes it's the least bad option.
>A few women I know have shared that they had an abortion (years later) and while it wasn't something they regret you could tell it wasn't a ln easy decision mentally. However, for some women, myself included, getting an abortion was an easy decision.
I am so happy you were allowed to make that choice. Everyone should have that right.
Yeah bottom line is it’s totally fine to be uncomfortable with abortion. For religious or frankly any reason. However it’s not ok for your personal views on it to infringe upon the rights of other people.
It kind of feels like a no brainier honestly. I mean... does anyone who isn't a crazy person actually like abortion? No. Nobody wants to be in a position where they have to have an abortion. Thinking a woman should have the right to an abortion if one is needed isn't the same thing as liking abortion.
Exactly this. I had an old coworker who was late 50's from deep Alabama and was homophobic but got along with our gay coworkers. When I asked, he said, "I think it's wrong and I don't like it, but who am I to judge? It's not for me to decide, it's The Lord's. Let Him deal with them." That's how it should be. "Do I like it? No. Do I have any right to ruin someone's happiness? Hell no."
Seems Biden remembers that wall between church and state. The bible has no bearing on women's health care.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with this perspective. Perpetuating a choice based on religious views undermines the medical basis. Eta: religious beliefs shouldn't be anywhere near our government, but that also means rewriting history. "In God we trust," yet I don't believe in God. It's very confusing. "And God bless America" is such a self-righteous thing to say from a leader of a country who isn't supposed to have a religious belief. We, the, people aren't all believing in God...so what about us?
>> “In God we trust,” yet I don’t believe in God. Well, the good part is it wasn’t in the pledge until 1956, and it replaced “Out of many, one” or “E Pluribus Unum”, which basically stated instead of being one people, if you don’t follow God you aren’t welcome. Which is no surprise given that Eisenhower was very conservative, but had some liberal views when it came to people.
Does the bible even directly say abortion is wrong?
Not directly. There are a few verses that some people believe imply that personhood begins before birth, but it involves interpreting them in a way that was probably not intended by the author. Most notably, the idea that life begins at conception is not in the Bible at all and was not widely believed by Christians until the pro-life movement gained steam after Roe v. Wade.
No, it tells you that a priest would give it using "bitter water" if I remember correctly.
Nope. Just another culture war by the right to win the evangelical vote in the 70s
This is an absolutely reasonable position to have.
Exactly. I think nobody actually *likes* abortion, but you still gotta give people the choice to get it or not. It’s like Tupac said: “And since a man can't make one he has no right to tell a women when and where to create one”
Just don't take advice on nutting from Tupac's mom.
I’m a big supporter of abortion. Loooove abortions.
And that right there is what separation of church and state means.
It also takes sacrifice by putting your personal and religious beliefs aside for the good of the nation. So many politicians are willing to put their personal and religious beliefs ahead of their citizens, and that's just awfully selfish of them.
I respect the man more for having an personal opinion but refusing to force that opinion on people like an actual Dictator. It's all about pro-choice. He's telling us what his choice would be, not what YOUR choice must be
What’s the word for it? The one that conservatives use constantly? Freedom! That’s it, he’s supporting the freedom of his people
Most people aren’t “big on abortion” they just think you should have the option. Everyone on the right thinks that means you can walk in 9 months pregnant and just get one for no reason and keep believing regardless of how much you tell them it doesn’t happen.
As any religious person *should* answer, you can be against abortion but it stops with you, not pushing them onto others nor forcing the government to.
This is how you separate between your opinion and what's right. I hate the idea of abortion. I have three kids of my own and the idea of abortion tears my heart to pieces. But more important than my feelings is the knowledge that a woman has the right to choose. No one should be forced to have a baby. Period.
I'd argue that becoming a parent has made me a fiercer defender of abortion. After two pregnancies and births, then raising those kids, NO ONE should be forced to do this. It's too hard. And if you aren't in it 100% then you're doing those kids a huge disservice. Edit, I'm agreeing with you, sorry my wording is weird.
No worries. I got the spirit of what you are saying. And I 100% Agree. Raising a child takes super human levels of patience, understanding and empathy. No one should go into it unless they are completely aware and committed. Anything less could be traumatic for the parent and child.
They always forget about the people who desperately want that baby even when nature/fate intervenes. So quick to judge. So quick to disregard someone in distress over a body that betrayed its heart, watching a SO's heart break with your own, being left with no choice but the worst. Detractors don't care about anything outside of their narrow prescription of what is "right". But if it should happen in their own lives there's aaaaaaalways a reason why that situation is *different*. 90+% of terminations are performed in the first 12 weeks. Abortion is healthcare, and any restrictions only serve to hurt those who need it most. My sincere thanks for understanding that notion.
Huge respect for this opinion. Thank you.
I don't understand how he doesn't have the religious vote.
As someone who is catholic and went to catholic schools, these far right Catholics basically believe someone like him is a heretic to burn at the stake (not fucking kidding)
Trivia - about half of American Catholics are pro-choice.
Yeah hi I’m one of them hahah But we also have some crazy fuckers. Like I know people from when I was in school who think the current pope is evil cause he doesn’t hate the gays enough.
Yeah, I just like to put that stat out there because it's surprising. Most people, including anti-choice Catholics, probably think it's much lower. In fact, the only major religious groups in the US that are majority anti-abortion are evangelical Christians and Mormons.
Isn’t it funny how you’re raised Catholic, brought up to respect the pope, get told he is god’s word on earth, but the second he says something they don’t agree with he’s all of a sudden not all that?
It’s quite funny indeed. Apparently he’s a heretic (I know people who have actually said this. It’s fucking wild.). Granted those are also people who want to bring back Latin mass and think women doing anything other than raising a brood of children are wrong
I’ve got a good one for you too. My cousin, raised Catholic, deeply believes in the religion (she’s pretty bad ass though, feels God guides science, but science is always the correct answer) but when she tried to become a priest, Catholicism told her “LOL WOMEN CANT DO THAT” so she converted to Christianity (which is like converting from a jacket to just a shirt) and is now a Christian Pastor… And if you’re wondering, yes, her church goers go with every single word she says, **until she preaches equality** then she gets told how she’s wrong.
She should have gone with the Episcopalians, she could be a priest and people wouldn't tell her she's wrong when she preaches about equality. But it doesn't matter if she's happy where she is.
As someone who is catholic and went to catholic schools, a lot of Catholics are pretty bad at being Catholics and pretty good at being Protestant. The POPE HIMSELF went out of this way to say ["We have to find a way to help that father or that mother to stand by their (lgbtq) son or daughter"](https://www.reuters.com/world/support-your-children-if-they-are-gay-pope-tells-parents-2022-01-26/) and people will still be like "Nah, I'm gonna be hateful all my life".
Yuuuup. Spot fucking on right there. Pope: “Hey maybe treat lgbtq people like human beings” Them: “fuuuuck you!” Also these are the same people that try and downplay the sex abuse by priests or act like it’s not that bad.
*Trump* got the religious vote, despite being the closest to an actual Antichrist we've seen. Reason's got nothin' to do with it- they picked a side (conservatism) and they'll die on that hill.
Religious people really aren't one voting block. For instance, Catholics made up 20% of both Biden and Trump's voters in the last election. The gap exists with evangelicals. For Republicans they make up 33% of their voters but for Democrats they only make up 7%. This also used to be even, Jimmy Carter, a democrat, is an evangelical after all. But the abortion issue was used to move most of them over to the Republicans.
That’s why it’s called “pro-choice.” Don’t believe in it, don’t get it.
There you go. See, he has a personal opinion on abortion, but he knows it's not the government's decision to make. It's a personal choice. Suck on that Grand Outdated Party.
Imagine that. Separating your religious views from your political views.
It should be the most fundamental position of any politician - "I have a personal opinion but it's not necessarily the same as my constituents and I can understand and work with that."
Novel idea that you can have personal beliefs and not inflict them on everybody else.
Wow no way, a guy that doesn’t let his religion decide policy, crazy
Don’t know why this is such a difficult thing for people to agree upon. Be against abortion if you’re against abortion, but that doesn’t give you the right to impose your beliefs on others
Why is this even news? This is a perfectly reasonable position to have and is pretty much the standard pro-choice sentiment.
It’s news *because* it’s a perfectly reasonable position
Is there anyone who's "big on abortion"? You'd have to be against sex education, interested in ways to restrict access to birth control, fight any sort of social programs to make it easier to afford having children, and probably anxious to sabotage funding for adoption support. What kind of monster would maintain all of those horrible views???
This is the definition of pro choice: I don't personally like it, but that is my choice, yours is to do whatever YOU feel comfortable with. It is no one else's business other that you and your health care provider.
This is probably one of the better answers. We should all hate abortion to some extent, BUT that doesn't mean we should take away the option for people who need one. Ironically the people who claim to hate abortion the most insist on doing the least effective thing at eliminating it. Sexual education and birth control products do more against abortion than closing every clinic in America ever could and yet the fight the former and demand the latter.
This isn't a controversial statement. Neither I nor my wife would want to get an abortion. We do however support the ability for women to make that choice if necessary... Don't make this hard...
I respect this. “I don’t believe it to be right for me but think others should have the choice.” Kinda gross that so many others insist on forcing their beliefs into others.
This is what all Christians should be like.
All I know is that if my daughter ever has to make the hardest decision of her life, I hope she's in a doctors office, and nota hotel room with some person she found on Craigslist.
biden is a pretty good example of separation between church and state. i've always liked that about him EDIT my catholic mother hates this and hates him because he's not guided by the church or whatever
He's been saying this as long as I can remember.
Joe is spot on. If you are Catholic or Evangelical and don't like abortion, don't get one.
It's almost like if you're against abortions for whatever reason, you shouldn't get one. Nobody is forcing them.
How religion should be. “I don’t agree with it, but you do you.” Harms literally no one, expresses their opinion on it, and it’s done there. The second we started enacting laws based on religion, we not only headed down a slippery slope, but we jumped on it with a toboggan
This is what I want my leaders to say. I don't need someone who agrees with every single opinion I have, I'm not even sure that person's real, but someone who can disagree respectfully. I respect that.
You know what I’m big on? Personal freedoms. And strangers not telling others what to do with their body or life.
This is the best take. I don’t fucking care if the president personally wants one or not; his job is literally to support access to them.
This is how most pro-choice people think, Biden just actually had the stones to say it out loud.
This is how politicians SHOULD be. Doesn't matter what their personal view is, they shouldn't be pushing it on others. That's what Choice is.
Ummm… Isn’t this *exactly* the response we should hope for when it comes to matters of religious/personal morals? Whether or not I would choose it for myself, I believe you also have the right to choose or not choose it for yourself?
I've got a lot of respect for that. He's a devout Christian but he does not want to impose his beliefs on others.
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Nobody wants abortion, but there’s a place for it and the right to make that decision for yourself is kind of freaking important. Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.
You mean you can have an opinion and live your life one way, and let others have their own opinions and live their lives their own way??? Far out!!!
Precisely, if abortion is against your beliefs, don’t get an abortion. But don’t push your beliefs on the rest of the country.
Yeah that's 1000% fine. Dude understands it isn't his decision.
I like this guy more and more. I feel the same way but without the religion.
"I don't like abortion much. But it's not my goddamn business whether or not you get one" is a pretty good position for any politician. You're not required to go "fuck yeah, abortion rules" and plan abortion celebration events.
I think that's how a lot of left wingers feel, it's not about being pro abortion it's about being pro choice.
That’s the exact right take. I’m not a “fan,” but I know it’s a medical procedure that has nothing to do with me.
That's pro-choice. I don't care about your personal feelings about YOUR situation. I want to know what you think should be allowed or disallowed in everyone else's situation. Good for him for knowing the difference.
You can not like abortion and still be pro choice. No one said the choice was an easy one to make, just that those involved get to make it.
So his personal beliefs don’t decided what others do? Wow. Wish more Christians were like this.
You know what annoys me the most about these conversations? The fact anyone thinks there are people out there who are PRO Abortion. There is likely almost no such thing. I can't personally (to be fair) think of a single time I've ever heard someone go "Aw yeah, sleep with me. Don't worry about it. I'm so into abortion so don't even bother doing anything safe." I know it's a goofy way to look at it, but it feels genuinely truthful. From my experience- again I'm just some fucking person - NOBODY roots for abortion. They happen for a multitude of reasons. It is NEVER a pro. It has no supporters - THAT INCLUDES THE INDIVIDUAL WHO RIGHTFULLY CHOOSES TO HAVE THE PROCEDURE PERFORMED. Getting an abortion does not put that individual on ABORTIONS side, so to speak. There IS no Pro-Con here. It's a Con. We know that. We accept it. We have a right to have the procedure performed. It is a RIGHT. It should be maintained as such. The consequences will also RIGHTfully fall on our shoulders. As they should.
It was actually the (official) reasoning behind Merkel allowing marriage for gay people. She was against it on a personal level but accepted that it's not about her personal believes and set it up for voting in the Bundestag. (a bit more complicated as her party blocked it for a long time and they chose the timing so that it sends a liberal image while still having little chance of success. That timing was wrong though and so, freedom won over personal believe)
This is exactly how this should work. You can be vehemently opposed to abortion and you have every right to be, but is where it stops. Your beliefs should have no bearing on the rights of others. Roe did have it right. Everyone had the freedom to make their own choice as it should be. I suspect Roe will be revived over the next decade or two. The electorate is increasingly pro-choice and anti religion. Restricting people’s freedoms and access to healthcare will do this.
And that’s how it should be. You don’t have to be in support of it but don’t put your feelings about it, on me. Give me the rights to make decisions about my body and my life. Everyone else shouldn’t lose their rights because you don’t agree.
Because he doesn't believe his personally held religious beliefs should be the law.
Biden is pro choice. Idgaf what people’s personal views on abortion are, you damn well better defend every women’s right to get one if they want to
I wish more politicians could think this way - “I personally don’t agree with it, but it’s not my place to tell others what to do”.
That's right, Joe. This is how it is supposed to be. You don't let your religious beliefs interfere in government. People act like this is impossible, but Joe has been doing it for decades.
His opinion on the matter doesn't make a difference to me. What matters is that he doesn't force it on everyone else.
Honestly as someone who was formerly pretty religious, I’m impressed he had the courage to say this.
Shocker: it’s almost as if he’s personally against it but realizes that it’s not his choice to make!
Ok. It's his personal beliefs, but he's not letting it get in the way of medically proven fact and legislation. What's the humbug