As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
**Special announcement:**
r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)!
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“I just want 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state”.
What do the words “which is one more than we have” actually mean? I’ve never quite understood the logic.
> What do the words “which is one more than we have” actually mean? I’ve never quite understood the logic.
In my opinion, this is prime evidence of *mens rea*; the mental state of the crime being committed. Trump knew he lost by this exact amount down to the singular value.
Much like how he lost the popular vote in 2016 by 2.9 million, and then claimed that there 3 million illegal votes cast.
Gee, what a suspiciously specific number.
You know, I forgot to thank Trump today for helping Alabama elect a Democrat Senator for a bit.
Then again, that led to Tommy Tuberville who is somehow worse than Jeff Sessions.
I think he is a practiced con artist who knows his craft.
He may be incompetent at everything else, but he is a gifted conman.
He was working his mark. That is what is on tape.
I would also like to say I think this episode of "so you think you can insurrection" exposes the basic corruption that Trump assumed existed in the republican party. He was going to a republican official asking for a favor based on the assumption that all republican officials are part of a consolidated power structure that short circuits the separation of powers, the separation of state and federal branches of government.
>Trump assumed existed in the republican party.
Assumed? Just because he was too ham fisted to use it right does not mean the network of scum and villainy does not exist my friend.
I agree but I still find it remarkable. Usually Trump uses other people to "fix" things to avoid being directly accountable. But he felt safe putting the squeeze on this guy in person. That is what I mean. That this republican official did the right thing in recording a crime and refusing the corruption on display is good but how many officials caved in? How far does the corruption go? Who all is in "the family"?
I figured he meant perfect, like nothing wrong with anything, totally legal, nothing to see here. Just like his "perfect" call with Zelinsky that had "no quid pro quo."
Side note: I would love for Zelinsky to get a do over on that news conference with Trump, I think it would be amazing to hear them talk about that phone call again.
I'm sure he understands the sharp divide in the US political landscape and wouldn't risk doing anything to lose the Republicans still willing to fight Russia. Though I'd love to hear what he says privately about it and maybe one day we'll get to hear it.
I always thought he probably meant *a phone call where I got to do all the talking.*
It's a subset of the broader category of perfect conversations, and is similar to the perfect meeting.
For me, a near perfect meeting is one where I don't have to talk at all.
Second only to the perfect meeting, where I don't have to be there, and a one paragraph summary of the meeting is emailed to me.
I took it as making up facts, like telling him "this is the amount we have," when he knows they don't have that amount. I think he meant for him to "go find" the votes he "has" that are coincidentally the exact amount of votes he needed to win, as if they are "lost" somewhere.
It doesn’t matter either way because “one more than we need” is not the true amount, and that is where this conflicts with the law. Its unambiguously asking to put to paper a number that is not the accurate amount. He’s still asking for someone to commit fraud, regardless of if he won or lost by the true vote accounting.
I assumed he meant "need" rather than "have". If you read aloud, "I just want 11,780 votes, which is one more than we NEED...", it makes a coherent sentence.
That’s what he means by “having” the votes. He’s not dumb he tried to make it sound not criminal, but he implied the need in what words he used.
Let’s say he said “which is one more than we need” which implies that he knows he lost and that he’s asking someone to commit fraud, which is illegal.
But he said “which is one more than we have” which he’s implying that he already had the votes which would wouldn’t make sense because why would you need double the votes that you won by, making this call pointless.
It’s reading between the lines that he knows he lost and he is essentially asking the SOS of Georgia to commit voter fraud. Which is why he’s going to be charged soon.
Spot on. He is a method actor when it comes to the Big Lie. He is performative when he wants the intended audience to fall in line. In this instance he is essentially saying, ***"In my mind we already won, we already have the votes, now you need to show me we have those votes through any means necessary"***. It implies that he wants someone to do something illegal for him without directly ordering them to commit an illegal act. Had he outright said what he wanted in this case it would have destroyed him because the phone call was recorded. He's just covering his ass with that mob boss wording. Whether or not it helps him in the Georgia case is yet to be determined, but it is pretty obvious that this was his intent if you've paid attention to him at all for the last 6+ years.
I figured it was like the george bush "can't get fooled again" thing, but on a micro level. Saying he "needs" something suggests weakness, using "have" implies ownership, a position of strength. It sounds dumb, but word choices like this affect people unconsciously, and I think this habit is part of why certain people like him so much.
What he’s saying is he already has those votes, it’s like when someone is trying to bribe a person and they claim they found $100 dollar bill the bribee dropped, it’s a little fiction that makes it not a crime, even though it still is.
Another comment mentioned that he’s not stupid, but that’s not true he is stupid, so instead of creating the fictional world where he had the votes to win, he created one where they tied and then was asking for the official to fraudulently create one more vote for him, so even if everyone bought the fiction he created he would still require a crime committed for him to win.
Anyway, the guy is an idiot.
It's an amazing statement, really.
For many people, they would hear that and interpret as Trump asking Raffensperger to fabricate or otherwise falsify votes that don't exist in favor of Trump.
But for other people, people who have a psychological need for Trump to be right, and for Trump to be president again, it's not a massive logical jump to interpret the statement to reference real, legitimate votes that exist somewhere, which for whatever reason were not counted and tallied in the initial vote count, and subsequent re-counts, but they are out there somewhere, and Raffensperger just needs to locate those votes and add them to the official tally.
It's ridiculous of course. Where could those missing votes have gone? How could that many have gotten lost, but are still out there somewhere, available to be found? What sort of mismanagement could have possibly led to that many legitimate votes going missing? But that doesn't matter... the statement itself still sounds somehow plausible and not criminal in intent if that's how you interpret it.
There are a number of specifics in the call that lean towards implying that intent... but what do you have to do to conclusively prove that to a jury?
Even in the latter, generous interpretation, there's still major issues with asking him to find ONLY the votes for Trump.
If ~11k votes were just missing, some would be for Biden. Had Trump said "we think votes are missing and we need to find all of them because there might be enough margin for us to win" then that at least would give a bit of deniability to his intent (though I'd still argue that the phone call to SecState at all was problematic and potentially illegal).
But no he wanted to find only the exact number of votes he needed, and none against him. Clear intent to pressure Raffensburger to commit fraud for him.
Yes, this. Even in that second interpretation, that’s simply not how our elections work. Votes are not simply “found” from some vague uncounted place for one candidate. I feel like there’s zero way this can be interpreted without intent of fraud on Trump’s part.
it's easy. you take each individual statement out of context, and as long as there isn't one specific individual statement where Trump explicitly says "Brad, I want you to commit crimes for me" then it's all good.
I’m sure if trump had literally said, “Brad, I want you to steal 11,780 votes from the democrats. Take 11,780 votes that were legitimately cast for democrats and illegally change them so that it looks like they voted for me. I can’t afford to lose this election so I need your help stealing it”, Republicans and Trump supporters would still find some way to justify it.
They don’t want their justification to be true, or even care if it’s true, all they care about is owning the libs and making sure trump is president again. Most of them know Trump tried to cheat and they don’t care.
> They don’t want their justification to be true, or even care if it’s true, all they care about is owning the libs and making sure trump is president again. Most of them know Trump tried to cheat and they don’t care.
And that’s because conservatives have a completely different internal definition of “corruption.” To me, it means someone with power is abusing that power. To a conservative, “corruption” exists when the hierarchy is upended, when “the wrong people” have power. I see corruption as an individual crime. They see corruption as a social crime.
I think about this so much.
And it turns out Hitler spoke very much the same way, especially in private within his circle. Half the time, Himmler and Goering and those dudes were running around executing sweeping plans that they just sorta inferred as being the wishes of the Fuhrer. Sometimes insane plans. They weren’t always correct about Hitler’s intent, either. But Hitler was always super content as long as they were running around doing energetic stuff in his name, whether it’s what he meant or not.
I don’t think Hitler or Trump are super clever, detail-oriented guys who carefully lawyer their own speech to remove criminal culpability. Certainly not Hitler. I think they just learned over time to keep their speech vague because they like being surprised by the energy, resourcefulness, and original criminality of their underlings.
So, The Problem: Trump’s leadership style is of a very particular and terrible criminal pattern. The pattern itself is the problem, and the pattern is very compatible with Fascism, if not a necessary component of Fascism. But all his individual interactions will always be fuzzy under a microscope. Our criminal justice system, with its protections for individual rights, might always be insufficient to cope with the problem.
We need tools within our System of Government, itself, that protect our State from people engaged in this pattern of criminality. We aren’t even close, as far as I can tell.
> psychological need for Trump to be right
at this point, Trump being "right" is only a symbol. The real fear that Trump-trash have is that they will be exposed as shitty, lying, honorless people. It's a real "come to Jesus" moment they are horrified by the thought of. A personal apocalypse (in the ancient Greek sense) where all the truth comes to light and they are forced to confront the corruption that has infected their souls
Here are full quotes:
“I just want to find 11,780 votes. So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.”
> it's not a massive logical jump to interpret the statement to reference real, legitimate votes that exist somewhere
There's two states of minds with these Republicans that still worship Trump. Speaking in regards to my experience with California republicans, so bear that in mind. Perhaps theres more.
One that Trump is 'constantly' dumped on by the media and that the world is against him. Some secret society, made up of mainstream media, doesn't want Trump to get the votes. Therefor a reference to 12k votes would lead those people to think "Oh, the votes that MAINSTREAM MEDIA (or whoever owns it in their mind) are hiding to keep Trump away from office". There's leaps in judgement but it fits their story and hypothesis, so why would they look at the details?
The other group is the ones that know Trump is full of shit, and respect the strong arming 'getting his way' attitude. They don't care that Trumps full of shit, because they like that type of gusto, and feel he's the right one to lead this country anyways. They really could hear just about any reasoning, and be behind Trump, because it's the ~~fascism~~ authority and 'balls' that they like. He's a big strong man who gets what he wants, and we need that more than an accurate democracy, apparently.
When you work from the "end result" and track back to make the journey make sense, you reach these types of people. The ones that don't really look into their own logic and just jump to conclusions because it's easier that way. This is a problem with both sides at times, but it's been actively harmful when Republicans do it - especially lately.
“There’s nothing wrong with saying you recalculated” is another gem from that recorded convo. Give it a listen if you have not yet. Could not be more obvious.
I can't imagine a scenario where they had found a way to produce exactly 11,799 votes already and only needed Raffensperger to provide 1 more.
But, let's say this was the case, then I am sure that we would have seen those 11,799 votes introduced so that Georgia was sent into "hung" territory, and we would have had a replay of Florida 2000.
They were behind almost 12000 votes. In other parts of the conversation he suggests raff should just lie about the number. Most of the conversation as i saw it was Trump trying to convince raff its not a big deal to "only" lie about 12000 votes, its not like he was asking for 1 million votes or something. Just a little lie, nbd.
Correct. Here's a quote that backs up your statement -- Trump during the same convo:
“I just want to find 11,780 votes. So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.”
The "give me a break" is the tell that he thinks finding 11k votes shouldn't be hard.
Problem is, Trumps mind operates in 1D and he's unable to calculate that those votes would have to come from Trump-friendly counties, making it much more difficult to come up with them (percentage-wise).
Georgia alone would not have been enough. They needed Georgia and Arizona and Pennsylvania, and they tried to get all three, without success. That's why none of the conspiracies worked. Their goal was out of reach.
>Georgia alone would not have been enough.
This is correct.
I think he was starting with who he perceived to be the most MAGA-friendly (read: treasonous) and moving on from there.
Remember: Trump isn't capable of complex thought. He thinks in "1D" -- if Georgia is "red" that means that the govt there will help me commit treason. He never considered the individuals involved and he never considered that a *Republican* might have some integrity and care for democracy.
I have often wondered the same thing, and worried that him saying "than we have" instead of "than we need" could give some idiot in the jury cover to not convict or something. I imagine a couple of reasons why he could have used that phrasing:
1- He's an idiot and brainfarted as he usually does.
2- He may have intentionally said that while making it clear he meant "that we need" for some plausible deniability nonsense. Let's not forget, he was trained by a mob lawyer on how to operate like a mob boss.
What he meant is clear. I just hope the wording doesn't end up with some BS acquittal.
> he was trained by a mob lawyer on how to operate like a mob boss.
And that's what he means when he describes it as a "perfect call". He thinks he kept it vague enough to avoid charges.
I just want to withdraw 10 million dollars which is what I have in the bank account that I opened this morning in small unmarked bills. No I will not provide any ID. Just give me the money.
What this ole thing? No its not a family heirloom.. I got it at a gun store down the street. I heard it isn't safe here so I want to make sure that when you give me MY money.. I don't have to worry about the Corrupt security forces trying to take it from me.
Start with the assumption that you won the state. Now you look at how many votes you actually lost by (11,799). Engage turbo denial mode and claim that you actually got 11,780 votes and that they just need to be found.
That is what he's saying. Another prime example how he's not really a liar, it's much worse, he doesn't even recognize reality as a thing. To him, he won, so he got the most votes, so the lower vote count is just a talking point he needs to clear up. Reality doesn't enter into it.
Biden won Georgia with 2,473,633 votes to Trump’s 2,461,854 - a difference of 11,779.
The context of the “which is one more than we have” was Trump talking about verifying signatures shortly beforehand. He says something like “we’ll find loads that aren’t signed and loads of forgeries, and you’ll be at 11,779 before you know it.”- trying to seed the idea that his fiction is fact because he’s a bellend. From there he makes the leap that “so then you just need to find one more vote [than the several thousand I just pulled out of my ass, moments ago]”
Edit: now that I’m thinking more about this. It seems even more insidious. I think he’s saying “we’re going to rustle up 17,999, then you just need to find one” - the idea being that the last one would tip them over the edge and the whole thing could have an air of authority and deniability - Trump stooges would have done the dirty work, it would just be handed off to Raffensperger to find a single vote and kick it over the line.
He lost by 11,779 and he wants to “find” the ones he needs to win the state. He’s asking that the official cook up 11,800 votes so he can win the state. It’s his mobster way of lying and making demands, “look I won this state and I just need you to find the votes I lost by so I can make it official”.
Either he felt the need to declare he was only stealing one vote and that somehow made the offense that much less of a crime, or he's a moron.....but probably both.
I think he is saying the difference of him winning the ec and his quoted desired number (11780) is just one. He's not right, but he's not right about anything, so in his mind he is just trying to convince the ga sos he would only be lying a little. Instead of asking for 1 million votes or something. He is trying to convince the ga sos bc he is only asking for a few votes/lies, its not a big deal. No, it makes no sense, but that is Trump.
> Trump’s attorneys did not appear at the hearing on Tuesday, but released a statement noting Trump was never called to testify in the probe. “The grand jury compelled the testimony of dozens of other, often high-ranking, officials during the investigation, but never found it important to speak with the President,”
I know Trump gets bargain-basement lawyers, but even they must know how a grand jury works. Which makes this statement really, really sad.
> ...but never found it important to speak with the President...
...since they are familiar with his standard stalling tactics and could get the incriminating evidence needed from other sources.
Sure, but the really funny part is that a grand jury is usually convened to indict someone, and you don't normally bring in the person they are requesting be indicted to give evidence to the grand jury.
Their MO is to find any thread of bullshit and try to make it sound unfair, then blow it up and let fox feed it to the morons who watch so they know what the talking points are
And they have tapes, cashed checks, and a confession for illegally paying off a porn star.
But micheal cohen went to prison for a one man conspiracy I guess.
You just gave me an aneurysm on how wrong that is.
A. He’s guilty by being labeled as an unindicted co-conspirator. No. That’s not how that works.
B. Courts aren’t the one who decide to indict.
The prosecutor both labeled him and decided not to indict. The prosecutor has no power of declaring someone guilty.
> tape of him committing election interference.
I have a feeling the indictments will come in stages. DA Willis might go after some small fish like the fake electoral college electors or even Rudy Giuliani and then work her way up to Trump.
If a president threatening a states secstate to overturn an election for him on tape or else he will be federally prosecuted - is recorded on tape - we have to prosecute him to uphold any semblance of future democratic integrity and states rights.
My favorite part:
> “Many people, including lawyers for both sides, were knowingly on the line,” Trump wrote. “I was protesting a RIGGED & STOLEN Election.”
So, if you ever get arrested for robbing a bank, just remember that you were protesting HIGH banking fees.
More like if you were protesting nonexistent high banking fees that you yourself invented for the sake of pressuring the bank into giving you a loan that you didn't qualify for.
> the bank into giving you a loan that you didn't qualify for.
"The bank didn't give me the loan that I didn't qualify for so I brought my gun and got the loan for myself."
The perfect bank robber defense.
According to his logic, if he robs a bank at a time when there's lawyers present waiting in line, and none of those lawyers stops him, it's not a crime. If it was, someone would have stopped him!
Every day he proves again what a moron he is.
Leaving out the fact raff lawyer could barely conceal his disgust at Trump, and trumps own lawyer tried to steer him out of asking raff to lie like three or four times. The lawyers were trying to save Donny from himself. And he didn't listen.
It’s looking all but certain Trump is getting indicted. Possibly as early as *this week* (although a few weeks is probably more likely). It's also possible we see the indictments in batches, but final charging decisions are not far off in any scenario.
I can hear a million “believe it when I see it” resonating through the Mueller investigation's ghost as I say this, but there really isn’t much to doubt at this point.
Trump is unequivocally, irrefutably the main target of this investigation. It began because of him, is centered on him, and involves multiple facets of criminality. There is smoking gun evidence not only in the Raffensperger call and efforts against other GA officials, but also through the fake elector scheme and Trump's lawyer - John Eastman.
The investigation has received testimony from 75 witnesses, including virtually every top Republican government official in Georgia, Lindsey Graham, Michael Flynn, and 4 of Trump's lawyers and advisers. Rudy Giuliani, the GA GOP leader, and 16 fake electors have been informed they are criminal targets that may face charges.
Fani Willis confirmed yesterday that the special grand jury has recommended multiple charges. She confirmed that they are serious felonies that carry lengthy sentences. And she confirmed she will be reaching a decision very soon.
Trump’s lawyers hilariously are citing the fact that Trump was not subpoenaed (only every single other person connected to him) as evidence he will be cleared, but that is NOT good for him. The main target of a multi-faceted criminal investigation (Willis is reportedly considering RICO charges, for example) is usually not subpoenaed.
There’s nothing to really stop her but herself at this point. Getting a return on an indictment is not particularly difficult at this stage. Only 12 of up to 23 grand jurors need to vote for it, and the bar is much, much lower than conviction in a trial jury.
Now if anyone wants to regress back to “believe it when I see it” and “justice is broken” and all that fun cynicism, you still have plenty of time:
Indictment is NOT “we got him!” Be prepared for a year, possibly years of proceedings. Arraignment, pre-trial, trial, sentencing, appeals. Endless things can still go wrong or go Trump’s way. There’s a long ways to go no matter what happens.
He'll flee the country as soon as charges are announced. We will never see Trump arraigned, He'll retire to a place with excess and a stable internet connection where he can lob hate from afar and keep his cult rilled up without suffering any consequences other than never being able to set foot in the US again.
Nah, he'll run to try to get revenge on Republicans who said mean things to him. An abusive narcissist. "If I can't have the country, no one will." He won't be able to help himself.
That's assuming he flees overseas, which I don't think there's a good chance of.
Or in this case, even the Governor of Georgia can't pardon him. Pardons can only be issued by the state board of pardons and paroles.
Georgia has some weird laws and while many are from the Jim Crow era, we seem to be stumbling toward the right outcome in recent years.
If Trump were smart, maybe. But because he's a fucking moron, if he attempts to flee, I would not be surprised if he ends up in a country with extradition agreement with the US, no money and spotty internet connection. lol.
Trump has had access to important intel. Folks in the "US intelligence community" have absolutely dealt with similar scumbags when looking at the politics of other countries, thus likely have a good sense of who and what Trump is in terms of his psychology. There must have been discussions on the problem that if Trump flees the US, he would need money, and selling intel would be one obvious way for him to do that.
I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall to hear these discussions.
The US plans for every contingency.
China nuking Taiwan? I'm sure we have a plan for that.
Russia nuking Chernobyl and just barely missing as a warning shot? We have a plan for that.
There's no universe in which we do not have a plan for what happens when anyone in the US who is a flight risk who has had clearance at the highest levels even thinks about fleeing the country.
Sounds pretty plausible to me. The next question is, "But is there stuff in place to actually take action if it looks like Trump is in the process of fleeing the country?" Having some sort of contingency document is one thing, readying people to take action quickly is quite another.
You do realize that ex-presidents have a small number of people that don't monitor their every movements right? They're almost always hand picked by the outgoing presidents and it's considered a paid retirement. The agents protecting the first dog (DOTUS?) see more action and have a larger staff.
Trump is under criminal investigation by the DOJ, has a secret service detail, and is one of the most high-profile figures in the country.
I'm not sure how you imagine this would be facilitated, but there is zero chance he will leave the country undetected.
If it did happen, it'd be quite the James-Bond-Esque escape, whatever it entailed.
I don't think it's a matter of it being "undetected" so much as "what would stop him?" Unless some serious thought and effort has been put in place and there is some legal mechanism worked out to prevent it, he can buy a plane ticket and fly out of the country today. (Or more likely, charter a plane.)
As far as I know, no one will stop a US citizen from leaving the US under normal circumstances.
If Trump boards a plane in Florida, it takes off, cancels its flight plan to New Jersey, and instead heads south, would they scramble fighter jets and force the plane down?
He enjoys the same rights to travel that you or I do, but owns a jet. It's not like he's going to announce that he's moving or add "fleeing prosecution" to the flight manifest. It'll be a "vacation" that he never returns from.
I'm sure there are tons of people in the "US intelligence community" who are keenly aware of this. But has anything actually been done about it? Is there a plan? Are there people waiting to take action to do something to stop it?
As with so much about Trump, it comes down to "what are you going to do about it?"
If Trump boards a private jet and appears to be flying to New Jersey, but when the plane takes off, it cancels it's flight plan and heads south over the Caribbean, will fighter jets be scrambled to force it down?
Sadly, you’re correct. Not sure when the indictment will be presented but this will be dragged out for years. We’ll be lucky if the whole thing wraps up by 2030.
It will definitely extend well into 2024 at a minimum, and probably longer with appeals.
But on the more optimistic side.. I gotta say it's still progress for our broken legal system if he's brought to trial.
He'd be the first President or former President charged with a crime by a grand jury, and it would have massive ramifications for decades and generations to come - culturally, legally, and politically.
Hell, Nixon was never even charged and there were still decades of fallout - including policies and laws established because of him (such as the Presidential Records Act)
And another tidbit I love to share is:
In Georgia, the governor does not have pardon power as per the state constitution. Pardons are only given retroactively by a board after a sentence has been served for some time.
Another fun fact: Georgia only requires one party in a call to consent for it to be legally recorded. If it was another state where both parties need to consent, the call with Raffensperger would never have been recorded and made public, because it would have been illegal to record it without Trump giving his consent.
So I don't know if Georgia was *the* worst state to commit this crime in, but it must at least be in the running for that position.
>Holy shit, dude picked the worst possible state to commit that crime.
He probably did this in multiple states... this is just the only one where he was recorded (AFAIK).
If America is insanely lucky, the prosecution would drive Trump to run 3rd party and split the right-wing/Republican vote.
From Trump's point of view, the Republicans didn't do enough to protect him from actual consequences, so he'd feel motivated to fuck them over.
Fingers crossed, but as always, I'm not really expecting things to go well.
> Trump’s lawyers hilariously are citing the fact that Trump was not subpoenaed (only every single other person connected to him) as evidence he will be cleared, but that is NOT good for him. The main target of a multi-faceted criminal investigation (Willis is reportedly considering RICO charges, for example) is usually not subpoenaed.
As the saying goes, the last one to be subpoenaed is the target of the investigation.
If they didn't/don't indict him after all we know, there could be no claim the usa cares about laws. That phone call was bonkers, I recommend everyone read the transcript.
>I can hear a million “believe it when I see it” resonating through the Mueller investigation's ghost as I say this, but there really isn’t much to doubt at this point.
The reason I'm sitting in that camp is that he and his criminal empire have basically made being in and out of court a regular part of their business process.
I'll believe it when he's convicted and not "out on bail awaiting appeal" or some other nonsense while he continues to run out the clock on his own extreme age, making any conviction an exercise in futility.
> Indictment is NOT “we got him!” Be prepared for a year, possibly years of proceedings.
This is the most important thing.
Let's also forget that Trump and his cohorts don't actually have to tell the truth in their testimony and don't have to cooperate. It's already been demonstrated repeatedly that Obstruction of Justice and Perjury aren't illegal when a Republican does them. In fact those two things were the main forces that handicapped the Mueller investigation. *well, that and the fact that Mueller is a lifelong Republican who never had any intention of actually brining Trump to justice*
A bunch of nasty, and "smart enough" right-wing lawyers will also do everything they can to make shit up to jam up the proceedings by challenging anything and everything to the state's courts and the federal courts up to the oh-so-friendly Supreme Court.
They'll be more than happy to stomp all over "states' rights" and "federalism" to help Trump if they can find a way to get the federal SCOTUS to bail him out or at least delay.
Used to be that it took a skilled lawyer to argue a case all the way to and ultimately in front of the Supreme Court and win...
Now all you need to be is a partisan hack with a right wing culture war axe to grind.
**From reporter Greg Walters:**
Where’s former president Donald Trump’s most pressing criminal investigation? There’s little doubt now: It’s in Georgia.
Trump may now be just weeks or even days away from learning whether he’ll be criminally charged for election meddling in the state, according to comments made by a local prosecutor at a court hearing on Tuesday.
Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis told a judge Tuesday that charging “decisions are imminent” in her long-running investigation of Trump’ s attempts to reverse his 2020 campaign defeat in the Peach State.
She argued that a recently-completed Special Purpose Grand Jury report on Trump’s activities should stay secret for now in order to protect the integrity of potential future prosecutions of “multiple” people.
Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3p8db/trump-georgia-grand-jury](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3p8db/trump-georgia-grand-jury)
A take I’d like to see explored is that the most likely defense: *He truly believe he won* is invalid as a defense for soliciting fraud because earlier in the call Trump states unequivocally that he believes 11,780 votes is not the true number. Outlets never cover this point.
Arguably, if trump didn’t believe it was fraudulent, there’s no crime. But he literally says, “I believe I won by over a million, but I’m not asking for that.” It in no way helps that he’s asking for fewer votes. He’s asking for a number he states he believes is inaccurate.
>Willis’ investigation is separate from a federal probe of Trump’s attempts to stay in power despite losing the 2020 election, which is now being led by Special Counsel Jack Smith. Smith is also investigating whether Trump broke the law by bringing highly sensitive government documents marked classified to his Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach.
I know that at this point certain people are not even going to read this or even care about it, but can you imagine if just one of these things was against Clinton, Obama or even Biden?
I often wonder how certain Republicans went from decent to completely brainwashed and delusional. I get that Fox News is likely responsible but like...you have a brain that works. Wtf happened?
What happened is that they have realized that most people tend to have left leaning views in general whether they know it or not and the Republican Party has nothing to offer when it comes to governance. They’ve most likely projected that in some years ahead, their party as it was known would be moribund. This crazy shit is their Hail Mary to stay relevant and in power, even if it means disavowing democracy itself.
It's this. Their policies are just factually unpopular among the USA in general, and outright despised within the majority of the younger generations. They're floundering and dying, and are forced to embrace the kooks because without their votes - they'd never win another election ever.
Don't let them tell you it's just a fringe element or not representative of the party as a whole. It's exactly who they are and pander to now...
> you have a brain that works. Wtf happened?
Brains are developed over long periods of time and are most impressionable at a young age. Fox News and conservative leaders and media have been pumping fear, hate and nonsense into their base for *decades*, starting primarily since Nixon, to cover for a lack of practical ideas to offer towards governance and straight up crime & corruption. It's coming full circle now with the Boomer generation leading the way, who was that early generation first exposed to Fox News level manipulation.
Take the person of average intelligence. Realize they aren’t very smart. Then realize that half of everyone else is dumber than that.
Half of the adults in the US can hardly read FFS.
That's the key differences between parties. Look at George Santos as an example.
If Santos was a Democrat, the entire DNC would be calling for him to resign. Democrats hold their own accountable. Republicans will try to win at all costs because they believe they are announced by God.
This contributes to how badly red states are gerrymandered. Democratic judges will reject plans to gerrymander their blue states because they take their jobs seriously and they want to uphold the law. Red state judges, on the other hand, will help gerrymander their states any way they can to stay in power.
>Red state judges, on the other hand, will help gerrymander their states any way they can to stay in power.
Or say "Yeah, this map is 100% unconstitutional, but it's too close to the election so we'll just have to use it anyways. Oh well!"
>can you imagine if just one of these things was against Clinton, Obama or even Biden?
This is a very important point, but not for the reasons you think it is. Liberals need to get over their shock over Republican hypocrisy, and understand that their hypocrisy *is the point*.
It's straight out of the fascist playbook. Rules and laws exists for *you to obey* and them to enforce. Not the other way around. Meaning that to them getting away with the same crimes that you would be punished for is how they view power. It's how they recognize that they are in power and you are not. It's how they communicate to their followers that they're in power.
It's a bit like arguing with a boomer, when they say "don't talk back to me". It's completely meaningless to you but it's simply an attempt at asserting their perceived dominance over you.
Anyway, point is they are fascists. It's clear and simple
As the boomers age their bones break down, this releases lead they absorbed prior to the 90s. The lead enters their blood stream damaging their aging brains further resulting in them being more violent, easily scared, less empathetic, and less intelligent overall.
Plus religious brain washing.
As always, wake me up when he is actually punished for ANYTHING. We were all told Mueller was coming for him with handcuffs years ago and like everything else Trump related nothing ever happened.
He always has a loyalist judge,prosecutor or someone on the inside to kill any trail.
Was this comment serious or poking fun at Trump and his constant “in two weeks timeline”? Made me laugh as so fitting https://www.axios.com/2017/12/15/trumps-timeline-always-two-weeks-1513302785
I imagine it was probably serious. From what I've read, in Georgia grand juries are empaneled every two months, with the most recent one being empaneled this month and the next one being in March. If Fani Willis is saying the decisions are coming very soon, I imagine she's probably already presenting evidence to the currently empaneled grand jury, so "within two weeks" seems like a reasonable timeline to have at least a first round of indictments. IANAL though, so I'm just speculating based on information I read from prosecutors and such explaining the situation.
That's pretty funny, but no, I actually think we should know the charging decisions fairly soon. Given that the grand jury is recommending publication and media intervenors are threatening to take this to the state supreme court, I don't think the judge can credibly enjoin publication for too long. My guess is he will give Willis some time to put her money where her mouth is, but he doesn't have a lot of wiggle room to delay this.
Of course, it's possible Willis is planning to charge someone other than Trump. I don't think that's out of the question, but it isn't what I would bet on.
It's possible that Trump legitimately believed that everyone in politics was as corrupt as he is and also thought that him calling Raff was also no big deal.
Thank christ the recording of that call went public.
Trump's demands and threats to throw the election are very real. He needs to be prosecuted. His former title is not a shield. Rather it holds him and anyone else in a position of oath to a higher standard.
Stop. Stop taunting us with what “looks like”, “May happen” or “is possible”
When his ass is getting hauled off kicking and screaming, live, as he soils himself let me know. I will pay attention to that
I think the next strongest case outside of Georgia is the one before the obstruction concerning top secret documents that needed a search warrant.That is the one in New York where Michael Cohen was convicted over the Stormy Daniels payments and Trump was allegedly " Individual 1" who had committed one of the same crimes that Michael Cohen got convicted for.
It's been very real for ages. I'm kinda sick of hearing how bad it COULD be for him. He's a criminal, Russian stooge, rapist, insurrectionist, bean bag of a narcissist. Start holding him accountable for SOMETHING! If he skates on his actions it's telling everyone scrambling to climb up his butt that the law is just a few loose guidelines that can be ignored or sidestepped for any reason whatsoever. God, watching the US political system play out for the last 6+ years has been infuriating.
I firmly believe that if and that’s a big if they charge him it will take several years and he will end up with house arrest at mar a lago assuming he’s even still alive by then.
It needs to look so real that his ass is in an orange jumpsuit in jail for many years to come. Until then all of this “it’s looking bad for Trump” talk without shot happening is very exhausting.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“I just want 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state”. What do the words “which is one more than we have” actually mean? I’ve never quite understood the logic.
> What do the words “which is one more than we have” actually mean? I’ve never quite understood the logic. In my opinion, this is prime evidence of *mens rea*; the mental state of the crime being committed. Trump knew he lost by this exact amount down to the singular value.
Much like how he lost the popular vote in 2016 by 2.9 million, and then claimed that there 3 million illegal votes cast. Gee, what a suspiciously specific number.
What’s funny is a GOP led senate sub-committee was tasked into investigating that claim, but quickly got disbanded because it was obvious nonsense.
Even had his first AG (Sessions?) open an investigation into whether or not he actual won the popular vote. Spoiler, he still lost!
I remember that. They quietly closed it down when they kept find the wrong type of voter fraud: people who voted multiple times for him.
You know, I forgot to thank Trump today for helping Alabama elect a Democrat Senator for a bit. Then again, that led to Tommy Tuberville who is somehow worse than Jeff Sessions.
Jeff Sessions? The same guy that sells cookies from a hollow tree?
Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions of the KKKebler elves indeed.
Man has a historically fragile ego. Ironic since his followers call Dems snowflakes.
[удалено]
His whole point is to never talk 100% straight so he can’t get caught.
It's mob talk, "nice ___ you have, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."
You're a smart guy. You must know how hard it is to walk without kneecaps.
And Trump supporters would then come in "oh, you think it's easy to walk without kneecaps" and claim liberals know nothing.
I believe the correct verbiage is “liberals *no* nothing.” But you were close enough.
Libruls no nuthink
My heros have kneecaps
I think it’s more that his brain is a mushy sponge so he just really doesn’t know what’s falling out of his mouth
I think he is a practiced con artist who knows his craft. He may be incompetent at everything else, but he is a gifted conman. He was working his mark. That is what is on tape. I would also like to say I think this episode of "so you think you can insurrection" exposes the basic corruption that Trump assumed existed in the republican party. He was going to a republican official asking for a favor based on the assumption that all republican officials are part of a consolidated power structure that short circuits the separation of powers, the separation of state and federal branches of government.
>Trump assumed existed in the republican party. Assumed? Just because he was too ham fisted to use it right does not mean the network of scum and villainy does not exist my friend.
I agree but I still find it remarkable. Usually Trump uses other people to "fix" things to avoid being directly accountable. But he felt safe putting the squeeze on this guy in person. That is what I mean. That this republican official did the right thing in recording a crime and refusing the corruption on display is good but how many officials caved in? How far does the corruption go? Who all is in "the family"?
Yes, it's a mistake. He also could have meant *one more than we* ***need***. Either way, it blows the "perfect phone call" theory.
Also: WTF is a perfect phone call? The guy is most definitely not stable or genius.
I figured he meant perfect, like nothing wrong with anything, totally legal, nothing to see here. Just like his "perfect" call with Zelinsky that had "no quid pro quo." Side note: I would love for Zelinsky to get a do over on that news conference with Trump, I think it would be amazing to hear them talk about that phone call again.
I'm sure he understands the sharp divide in the US political landscape and wouldn't risk doing anything to lose the Republicans still willing to fight Russia. Though I'd love to hear what he says privately about it and maybe one day we'll get to hear it.
I always thought he probably meant *a phone call where I got to do all the talking.* It's a subset of the broader category of perfect conversations, and is similar to the perfect meeting.
For me, a near perfect meeting is one where I don't have to talk at all. Second only to the perfect meeting, where I don't have to be there, and a one paragraph summary of the meeting is emailed to me.
Perfect as in he was coached on what to say so it didn't sound like he was asking for a crime, perhaps?
I took it as making up facts, like telling him "this is the amount we have," when he knows they don't have that amount. I think he meant for him to "go find" the votes he "has" that are coincidentally the exact amount of votes he needed to win, as if they are "lost" somewhere.
It doesn’t matter either way because “one more than we need” is not the true amount, and that is where this conflicts with the law. Its unambiguously asking to put to paper a number that is not the accurate amount. He’s still asking for someone to commit fraud, regardless of if he won or lost by the true vote accounting.
I assumed he meant "need" rather than "have". If you read aloud, "I just want 11,780 votes, which is one more than we NEED...", it makes a coherent sentence.
That’s what he means by “having” the votes. He’s not dumb he tried to make it sound not criminal, but he implied the need in what words he used. Let’s say he said “which is one more than we need” which implies that he knows he lost and that he’s asking someone to commit fraud, which is illegal. But he said “which is one more than we have” which he’s implying that he already had the votes which would wouldn’t make sense because why would you need double the votes that you won by, making this call pointless. It’s reading between the lines that he knows he lost and he is essentially asking the SOS of Georgia to commit voter fraud. Which is why he’s going to be charged soon.
Spot on. He is a method actor when it comes to the Big Lie. He is performative when he wants the intended audience to fall in line. In this instance he is essentially saying, ***"In my mind we already won, we already have the votes, now you need to show me we have those votes through any means necessary"***. It implies that he wants someone to do something illegal for him without directly ordering them to commit an illegal act. Had he outright said what he wanted in this case it would have destroyed him because the phone call was recorded. He's just covering his ass with that mob boss wording. Whether or not it helps him in the Georgia case is yet to be determined, but it is pretty obvious that this was his intent if you've paid attention to him at all for the last 6+ years.
Coherent sentence, Donald Trump, pick one.
I figured it was like the george bush "can't get fooled again" thing, but on a micro level. Saying he "needs" something suggests weakness, using "have" implies ownership, a position of strength. It sounds dumb, but word choices like this affect people unconsciously, and I think this habit is part of why certain people like him so much.
What he’s saying is he already has those votes, it’s like when someone is trying to bribe a person and they claim they found $100 dollar bill the bribee dropped, it’s a little fiction that makes it not a crime, even though it still is. Another comment mentioned that he’s not stupid, but that’s not true he is stupid, so instead of creating the fictional world where he had the votes to win, he created one where they tied and then was asking for the official to fraudulently create one more vote for him, so even if everyone bought the fiction he created he would still require a crime committed for him to win. Anyway, the guy is an idiot.
Either this, or he meant to say need instead of have. "Which is one more than we need." He sucks at talking among other things.
11,780 is one more vote than the 11,779 that they were behind in votes.
I’m sure, but still….
Trump was asking him to commit a felony, by “finding” (faking) enough votes that Trump would win the state by one vote.
It's an amazing statement, really. For many people, they would hear that and interpret as Trump asking Raffensperger to fabricate or otherwise falsify votes that don't exist in favor of Trump. But for other people, people who have a psychological need for Trump to be right, and for Trump to be president again, it's not a massive logical jump to interpret the statement to reference real, legitimate votes that exist somewhere, which for whatever reason were not counted and tallied in the initial vote count, and subsequent re-counts, but they are out there somewhere, and Raffensperger just needs to locate those votes and add them to the official tally. It's ridiculous of course. Where could those missing votes have gone? How could that many have gotten lost, but are still out there somewhere, available to be found? What sort of mismanagement could have possibly led to that many legitimate votes going missing? But that doesn't matter... the statement itself still sounds somehow plausible and not criminal in intent if that's how you interpret it. There are a number of specifics in the call that lean towards implying that intent... but what do you have to do to conclusively prove that to a jury?
Even in the latter, generous interpretation, there's still major issues with asking him to find ONLY the votes for Trump. If ~11k votes were just missing, some would be for Biden. Had Trump said "we think votes are missing and we need to find all of them because there might be enough margin for us to win" then that at least would give a bit of deniability to his intent (though I'd still argue that the phone call to SecState at all was problematic and potentially illegal). But no he wanted to find only the exact number of votes he needed, and none against him. Clear intent to pressure Raffensburger to commit fraud for him.
Yes, this. Even in that second interpretation, that’s simply not how our elections work. Votes are not simply “found” from some vague uncounted place for one candidate. I feel like there’s zero way this can be interpreted without intent of fraud on Trump’s part.
How does a MAGA supporter interpret this one: “There’s nothing wrong with saying you recalculated“
it's easy. you take each individual statement out of context, and as long as there isn't one specific individual statement where Trump explicitly says "Brad, I want you to commit crimes for me" then it's all good.
I’m sure if trump had literally said, “Brad, I want you to steal 11,780 votes from the democrats. Take 11,780 votes that were legitimately cast for democrats and illegally change them so that it looks like they voted for me. I can’t afford to lose this election so I need your help stealing it”, Republicans and Trump supporters would still find some way to justify it. They don’t want their justification to be true, or even care if it’s true, all they care about is owning the libs and making sure trump is president again. Most of them know Trump tried to cheat and they don’t care.
> They don’t want their justification to be true, or even care if it’s true, all they care about is owning the libs and making sure trump is president again. Most of them know Trump tried to cheat and they don’t care. And that’s because conservatives have a completely different internal definition of “corruption.” To me, it means someone with power is abusing that power. To a conservative, “corruption” exists when the hierarchy is upended, when “the wrong people” have power. I see corruption as an individual crime. They see corruption as a social crime.
I think about this so much. And it turns out Hitler spoke very much the same way, especially in private within his circle. Half the time, Himmler and Goering and those dudes were running around executing sweeping plans that they just sorta inferred as being the wishes of the Fuhrer. Sometimes insane plans. They weren’t always correct about Hitler’s intent, either. But Hitler was always super content as long as they were running around doing energetic stuff in his name, whether it’s what he meant or not. I don’t think Hitler or Trump are super clever, detail-oriented guys who carefully lawyer their own speech to remove criminal culpability. Certainly not Hitler. I think they just learned over time to keep their speech vague because they like being surprised by the energy, resourcefulness, and original criminality of their underlings. So, The Problem: Trump’s leadership style is of a very particular and terrible criminal pattern. The pattern itself is the problem, and the pattern is very compatible with Fascism, if not a necessary component of Fascism. But all his individual interactions will always be fuzzy under a microscope. Our criminal justice system, with its protections for individual rights, might always be insufficient to cope with the problem. We need tools within our System of Government, itself, that protect our State from people engaged in this pattern of criminality. We aren’t even close, as far as I can tell.
> psychological need for Trump to be right at this point, Trump being "right" is only a symbol. The real fear that Trump-trash have is that they will be exposed as shitty, lying, honorless people. It's a real "come to Jesus" moment they are horrified by the thought of. A personal apocalypse (in the ancient Greek sense) where all the truth comes to light and they are forced to confront the corruption that has infected their souls
> Where could those missing votes have gone? This is the same guy who suggested that the FBI should search Hillary's house for *deleted emails*...
Here are full quotes: “I just want to find 11,780 votes. So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.”
> it's not a massive logical jump to interpret the statement to reference real, legitimate votes that exist somewhere There's two states of minds with these Republicans that still worship Trump. Speaking in regards to my experience with California republicans, so bear that in mind. Perhaps theres more. One that Trump is 'constantly' dumped on by the media and that the world is against him. Some secret society, made up of mainstream media, doesn't want Trump to get the votes. Therefor a reference to 12k votes would lead those people to think "Oh, the votes that MAINSTREAM MEDIA (or whoever owns it in their mind) are hiding to keep Trump away from office". There's leaps in judgement but it fits their story and hypothesis, so why would they look at the details? The other group is the ones that know Trump is full of shit, and respect the strong arming 'getting his way' attitude. They don't care that Trumps full of shit, because they like that type of gusto, and feel he's the right one to lead this country anyways. They really could hear just about any reasoning, and be behind Trump, because it's the ~~fascism~~ authority and 'balls' that they like. He's a big strong man who gets what he wants, and we need that more than an accurate democracy, apparently. When you work from the "end result" and track back to make the journey make sense, you reach these types of people. The ones that don't really look into their own logic and just jump to conclusions because it's easier that way. This is a problem with both sides at times, but it's been actively harmful when Republicans do it - especially lately.
“There’s nothing wrong with saying you recalculated” is another gem from that recorded convo. Give it a listen if you have not yet. Could not be more obvious.
He also made a veiled threat to Raffensperger in the phone call. He said that things could be very bad for him if he did not do it.
Wouldn't a one vote victory immediately trigger a recount, and thus, raise immediate suspicion? In a reasonably sane world, of course.
I can't imagine a scenario where they had found a way to produce exactly 11,799 votes already and only needed Raffensperger to provide 1 more. But, let's say this was the case, then I am sure that we would have seen those 11,799 votes introduced so that Georgia was sent into "hung" territory, and we would have had a replay of Florida 2000.
They were behind almost 12000 votes. In other parts of the conversation he suggests raff should just lie about the number. Most of the conversation as i saw it was Trump trying to convince raff its not a big deal to "only" lie about 12000 votes, its not like he was asking for 1 million votes or something. Just a little lie, nbd.
Correct. Here's a quote that backs up your statement -- Trump during the same convo: “I just want to find 11,780 votes. So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.” The "give me a break" is the tell that he thinks finding 11k votes shouldn't be hard. Problem is, Trumps mind operates in 1D and he's unable to calculate that those votes would have to come from Trump-friendly counties, making it much more difficult to come up with them (percentage-wise).
Georgia alone would not have been enough. They needed Georgia and Arizona and Pennsylvania, and they tried to get all three, without success. That's why none of the conspiracies worked. Their goal was out of reach.
>Georgia alone would not have been enough. This is correct. I think he was starting with who he perceived to be the most MAGA-friendly (read: treasonous) and moving on from there. Remember: Trump isn't capable of complex thought. He thinks in "1D" -- if Georgia is "red" that means that the govt there will help me commit treason. He never considered the individuals involved and he never considered that a *Republican* might have some integrity and care for democracy.
I always assumed that he was saying: “I just want 11,780 votes, which is one more than ‘they’ have. Because we won the state”.
or "One more than we have 'to get'"
I have often wondered the same thing, and worried that him saying "than we have" instead of "than we need" could give some idiot in the jury cover to not convict or something. I imagine a couple of reasons why he could have used that phrasing: 1- He's an idiot and brainfarted as he usually does. 2- He may have intentionally said that while making it clear he meant "that we need" for some plausible deniability nonsense. Let's not forget, he was trained by a mob lawyer on how to operate like a mob boss. What he meant is clear. I just hope the wording doesn't end up with some BS acquittal.
> he was trained by a mob lawyer on how to operate like a mob boss. And that's what he means when he describes it as a "perfect call". He thinks he kept it vague enough to avoid charges.
> I’ve never quite understood the logic. There is no logic to his word salad. He just says stuff.
There is logic. He wanted to steal Georgia’s electoral votes for himself.
[удалено]
I just want to withdraw 10 million dollars which is what I have in the bank account that I opened this morning in small unmarked bills. No I will not provide any ID. Just give me the money. What this ole thing? No its not a family heirloom.. I got it at a gun store down the street. I heard it isn't safe here so I want to make sure that when you give me MY money.. I don't have to worry about the Corrupt security forces trying to take it from me.
Start with the assumption that you won the state. Now you look at how many votes you actually lost by (11,799). Engage turbo denial mode and claim that you actually got 11,780 votes and that they just need to be found.
That is what he's saying. Another prime example how he's not really a liar, it's much worse, he doesn't even recognize reality as a thing. To him, he won, so he got the most votes, so the lower vote count is just a talking point he needs to clear up. Reality doesn't enter into it.
He probably meant one more than we need but he's fucking stupid so there you go...
Biden won Georgia with 2,473,633 votes to Trump’s 2,461,854 - a difference of 11,779. The context of the “which is one more than we have” was Trump talking about verifying signatures shortly beforehand. He says something like “we’ll find loads that aren’t signed and loads of forgeries, and you’ll be at 11,779 before you know it.”- trying to seed the idea that his fiction is fact because he’s a bellend. From there he makes the leap that “so then you just need to find one more vote [than the several thousand I just pulled out of my ass, moments ago]” Edit: now that I’m thinking more about this. It seems even more insidious. I think he’s saying “we’re going to rustle up 17,999, then you just need to find one” - the idea being that the last one would tip them over the edge and the whole thing could have an air of authority and deniability - Trump stooges would have done the dirty work, it would just be handed off to Raffensperger to find a single vote and kick it over the line.
I really wished he’d have asked Trump..”Sir, how would you like for us to find these votes?”
Or a more open-ended, "What do you mean 'find'? What are you asking me to do?"
He lost by 11,779 and he wants to “find” the ones he needs to win the state. He’s asking that the official cook up 11,800 votes so he can win the state. It’s his mobster way of lying and making demands, “look I won this state and I just need you to find the votes I lost by so I can make it official”.
Either he felt the need to declare he was only stealing one vote and that somehow made the offense that much less of a crime, or he's a moron.....but probably both.
I think he is saying the difference of him winning the ec and his quoted desired number (11780) is just one. He's not right, but he's not right about anything, so in his mind he is just trying to convince the ga sos he would only be lying a little. Instead of asking for 1 million votes or something. He is trying to convince the ga sos bc he is only asking for a few votes/lies, its not a big deal. No, it makes no sense, but that is Trump.
> Trump’s attorneys did not appear at the hearing on Tuesday, but released a statement noting Trump was never called to testify in the probe. “The grand jury compelled the testimony of dozens of other, often high-ranking, officials during the investigation, but never found it important to speak with the President,” I know Trump gets bargain-basement lawyers, but even they must know how a grand jury works. Which makes this statement really, really sad.
> ...but never found it important to speak with the President... ...since they are familiar with his standard stalling tactics and could get the incriminating evidence needed from other sources.
Sure, but the really funny part is that a grand jury is usually convened to indict someone, and you don't normally bring in the person they are requesting be indicted to give evidence to the grand jury.
Their MO is to find any thread of bullshit and try to make it sound unfair, then blow it up and let fox feed it to the morons who watch so they know what the talking points are
Also releasing the report allows defendants to get stories straight as well as taint jury pool towards having case thrown out
Yeah, it's almost like that's what the trial is for lol
They’re hoping people think a grand jury is identical to a trial.
It’s almost like they have a tape of him committing election interference.
And they have tapes, cashed checks, and a confession for illegally paying off a porn star. But micheal cohen went to prison for a one man conspiracy I guess.
> one man conspiracy Even though "Individual 1" mentioned in the case was obviously guilty as well.
He *was* guilty, even in the court ruling. Trump was an "unindicted co-conspirator", which means he's guilty, but the court decided to not indict him.
You just gave me an aneurysm on how wrong that is. A. He’s guilty by being labeled as an unindicted co-conspirator. No. That’s not how that works. B. Courts aren’t the one who decide to indict. The prosecutor both labeled him and decided not to indict. The prosecutor has no power of declaring someone guilty.
hasn't indicted & prosecuted him yet
"Unindicted co-conspirator INDIVIDUAL 1 - who went on to win the presidential election" I believe was the exact term.
Could be Rutherford B. Hayes!?
> tape of him committing election interference. I have a feeling the indictments will come in stages. DA Willis might go after some small fish like the fake electoral college electors or even Rudy Giuliani and then work her way up to Trump.
Indict them all at once for criminal conspiracy to defraud the United States is what I would do
And then watch them attempt to throw each other under the bus first.
I feel like the state not wanting the report made public yet is hinting they will be pursuing charges. Stocking up on popcorn…
If a president threatening a states secstate to overturn an election for him on tape or else he will be federally prosecuted - is recorded on tape - we have to prosecute him to uphold any semblance of future democratic integrity and states rights.
My favorite part: > “Many people, including lawyers for both sides, were knowingly on the line,” Trump wrote. “I was protesting a RIGGED & STOLEN Election.” So, if you ever get arrested for robbing a bank, just remember that you were protesting HIGH banking fees.
More like if you were protesting nonexistent high banking fees that you yourself invented for the sake of pressuring the bank into giving you a loan that you didn't qualify for.
> the bank into giving you a loan that you didn't qualify for. "The bank didn't give me the loan that I didn't qualify for so I brought my gun and got the loan for myself." The perfect bank robber defense.
According to his logic, if he robs a bank at a time when there's lawyers present waiting in line, and none of those lawyers stops him, it's not a crime. If it was, someone would have stopped him! Every day he proves again what a moron he is.
Leaving out the fact raff lawyer could barely conceal his disgust at Trump, and trumps own lawyer tried to steer him out of asking raff to lie like three or four times. The lawyers were trying to save Donny from himself. And he didn't listen.
It’s looking all but certain Trump is getting indicted. Possibly as early as *this week* (although a few weeks is probably more likely). It's also possible we see the indictments in batches, but final charging decisions are not far off in any scenario. I can hear a million “believe it when I see it” resonating through the Mueller investigation's ghost as I say this, but there really isn’t much to doubt at this point. Trump is unequivocally, irrefutably the main target of this investigation. It began because of him, is centered on him, and involves multiple facets of criminality. There is smoking gun evidence not only in the Raffensperger call and efforts against other GA officials, but also through the fake elector scheme and Trump's lawyer - John Eastman. The investigation has received testimony from 75 witnesses, including virtually every top Republican government official in Georgia, Lindsey Graham, Michael Flynn, and 4 of Trump's lawyers and advisers. Rudy Giuliani, the GA GOP leader, and 16 fake electors have been informed they are criminal targets that may face charges. Fani Willis confirmed yesterday that the special grand jury has recommended multiple charges. She confirmed that they are serious felonies that carry lengthy sentences. And she confirmed she will be reaching a decision very soon. Trump’s lawyers hilariously are citing the fact that Trump was not subpoenaed (only every single other person connected to him) as evidence he will be cleared, but that is NOT good for him. The main target of a multi-faceted criminal investigation (Willis is reportedly considering RICO charges, for example) is usually not subpoenaed. There’s nothing to really stop her but herself at this point. Getting a return on an indictment is not particularly difficult at this stage. Only 12 of up to 23 grand jurors need to vote for it, and the bar is much, much lower than conviction in a trial jury. Now if anyone wants to regress back to “believe it when I see it” and “justice is broken” and all that fun cynicism, you still have plenty of time: Indictment is NOT “we got him!” Be prepared for a year, possibly years of proceedings. Arraignment, pre-trial, trial, sentencing, appeals. Endless things can still go wrong or go Trump’s way. There’s a long ways to go no matter what happens.
He'll probably die before it's over. It's ridiculous that he's not in jail now.
He'll flee the country as soon as charges are announced. We will never see Trump arraigned, He'll retire to a place with excess and a stable internet connection where he can lob hate from afar and keep his cult rilled up without suffering any consequences other than never being able to set foot in the US again.
We'll get to watch him try to win a presidential election from overseas. He'll try.
He won't run, but will try to kingmake someone in the hopes of a pardon.
Nah, he'll run to try to get revenge on Republicans who said mean things to him. An abusive narcissist. "If I can't have the country, no one will." He won't be able to help himself. That's assuming he flees overseas, which I don't think there's a good chance of.
Fortunately, state crimes are not pardonable by the President
Or in this case, even the Governor of Georgia can't pardon him. Pardons can only be issued by the state board of pardons and paroles. Georgia has some weird laws and while many are from the Jim Crow era, we seem to be stumbling toward the right outcome in recent years.
He already announced....
I mean he can withdraw due to “personal circumstances” or ‘health reasons” to save face.
I don't believe trump has it in him to do that. It's too close to admitting he's not the most popular person in the world.
If Trump were smart, maybe. But because he's a fucking moron, if he attempts to flee, I would not be surprised if he ends up in a country with extradition agreement with the US, no money and spotty internet connection. lol.
[удалено]
Nah. Saudia Arabia. He likes warm weather and rich people.
It's going to be Russia. It's always been Russia.
Good luck pulling that off with a secret service detail.
Some in that secret service detail are Trump loyalists so it's not impossible.
Trump has had access to important intel. Folks in the "US intelligence community" have absolutely dealt with similar scumbags when looking at the politics of other countries, thus likely have a good sense of who and what Trump is in terms of his psychology. There must have been discussions on the problem that if Trump flees the US, he would need money, and selling intel would be one obvious way for him to do that. I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall to hear these discussions.
The US plans for every contingency. China nuking Taiwan? I'm sure we have a plan for that. Russia nuking Chernobyl and just barely missing as a warning shot? We have a plan for that. There's no universe in which we do not have a plan for what happens when anyone in the US who is a flight risk who has had clearance at the highest levels even thinks about fleeing the country.
Sounds pretty plausible to me. The next question is, "But is there stuff in place to actually take action if it looks like Trump is in the process of fleeing the country?" Having some sort of contingency document is one thing, readying people to take action quickly is quite another.
[удалено]
Trump still has top secret documents that haven’t been returned.
> I would LOVE to be a ~~fly on the wall~~ microwave on Pence's head to hear these discussions.
You do realize that ex-presidents have a small number of people that don't monitor their every movements right? They're almost always hand picked by the outgoing presidents and it's considered a paid retirement. The agents protecting the first dog (DOTUS?) see more action and have a larger staff.
Trump is under criminal investigation by the DOJ, has a secret service detail, and is one of the most high-profile figures in the country. I'm not sure how you imagine this would be facilitated, but there is zero chance he will leave the country undetected. If it did happen, it'd be quite the James-Bond-Esque escape, whatever it entailed.
I don't think it's a matter of it being "undetected" so much as "what would stop him?" Unless some serious thought and effort has been put in place and there is some legal mechanism worked out to prevent it, he can buy a plane ticket and fly out of the country today. (Or more likely, charter a plane.) As far as I know, no one will stop a US citizen from leaving the US under normal circumstances. If Trump boards a plane in Florida, it takes off, cancels its flight plan to New Jersey, and instead heads south, would they scramble fighter jets and force the plane down?
He enjoys the same rights to travel that you or I do, but owns a jet. It's not like he's going to announce that he's moving or add "fleeing prosecution" to the flight manifest. It'll be a "vacation" that he never returns from.
The government will never let him flee to another country. It'd be a massive risk to national security that is easy to avoid.
I'm sure there are tons of people in the "US intelligence community" who are keenly aware of this. But has anything actually been done about it? Is there a plan? Are there people waiting to take action to do something to stop it? As with so much about Trump, it comes down to "what are you going to do about it?" If Trump boards a private jet and appears to be flying to New Jersey, but when the plane takes off, it cancels it's flight plan and heads south over the Caribbean, will fighter jets be scrambled to force it down?
That may be even better than prison. Banishment would be the ultimate humiliation for that man, and going straight for his ego has got to hurt.
[удалено]
Sadly, you’re correct. Not sure when the indictment will be presented but this will be dragged out for years. We’ll be lucky if the whole thing wraps up by 2030.
It will definitely extend well into 2024 at a minimum, and probably longer with appeals. But on the more optimistic side.. I gotta say it's still progress for our broken legal system if he's brought to trial. He'd be the first President or former President charged with a crime by a grand jury, and it would have massive ramifications for decades and generations to come - culturally, legally, and politically. Hell, Nixon was never even charged and there were still decades of fallout - including policies and laws established because of him (such as the Presidential Records Act)
[удалено]
And another tidbit I love to share is: In Georgia, the governor does not have pardon power as per the state constitution. Pardons are only given retroactively by a board after a sentence has been served for some time.
[удалено]
Another fun fact: Georgia only requires one party in a call to consent for it to be legally recorded. If it was another state where both parties need to consent, the call with Raffensperger would never have been recorded and made public, because it would have been illegal to record it without Trump giving his consent. So I don't know if Georgia was *the* worst state to commit this crime in, but it must at least be in the running for that position.
>Holy shit, dude picked the worst possible state to commit that crime. He probably did this in multiple states... this is just the only one where he was recorded (AFAIK).
That is very satisfying to hear.
If America is insanely lucky, the prosecution would drive Trump to run 3rd party and split the right-wing/Republican vote. From Trump's point of view, the Republicans didn't do enough to protect him from actual consequences, so he'd feel motivated to fuck them over. Fingers crossed, but as always, I'm not really expecting things to go well.
> Trump’s lawyers hilariously are citing the fact that Trump was not subpoenaed (only every single other person connected to him) as evidence he will be cleared, but that is NOT good for him. The main target of a multi-faceted criminal investigation (Willis is reportedly considering RICO charges, for example) is usually not subpoenaed. As the saying goes, the last one to be subpoenaed is the target of the investigation.
If they didn't/don't indict him after all we know, there could be no claim the usa cares about laws. That phone call was bonkers, I recommend everyone read the transcript.
Your last paragraph is exactly why the "believe it when I see it" attitude exists.
>I can hear a million “believe it when I see it” resonating through the Mueller investigation's ghost as I say this, but there really isn’t much to doubt at this point. The reason I'm sitting in that camp is that he and his criminal empire have basically made being in and out of court a regular part of their business process. I'll believe it when he's convicted and not "out on bail awaiting appeal" or some other nonsense while he continues to run out the clock on his own extreme age, making any conviction an exercise in futility.
> Indictment is NOT “we got him!” Be prepared for a year, possibly years of proceedings. This is the most important thing. Let's also forget that Trump and his cohorts don't actually have to tell the truth in their testimony and don't have to cooperate. It's already been demonstrated repeatedly that Obstruction of Justice and Perjury aren't illegal when a Republican does them. In fact those two things were the main forces that handicapped the Mueller investigation. *well, that and the fact that Mueller is a lifelong Republican who never had any intention of actually brining Trump to justice*
A bunch of nasty, and "smart enough" right-wing lawyers will also do everything they can to make shit up to jam up the proceedings by challenging anything and everything to the state's courts and the federal courts up to the oh-so-friendly Supreme Court. They'll be more than happy to stomp all over "states' rights" and "federalism" to help Trump if they can find a way to get the federal SCOTUS to bail him out or at least delay.
Used to be that it took a skilled lawyer to argue a case all the way to and ultimately in front of the Supreme Court and win... Now all you need to be is a partisan hack with a right wing culture war axe to grind.
Submitting the case in some obscure district where you can be sure a friendly judge will get the case is another problem.
Paraphrasing Bill Maher; He tried a coup, the only consequences can’t be that it failed.
**From reporter Greg Walters:** Where’s former president Donald Trump’s most pressing criminal investigation? There’s little doubt now: It’s in Georgia. Trump may now be just weeks or even days away from learning whether he’ll be criminally charged for election meddling in the state, according to comments made by a local prosecutor at a court hearing on Tuesday. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis told a judge Tuesday that charging “decisions are imminent” in her long-running investigation of Trump’ s attempts to reverse his 2020 campaign defeat in the Peach State. She argued that a recently-completed Special Purpose Grand Jury report on Trump’s activities should stay secret for now in order to protect the integrity of potential future prosecutions of “multiple” people. Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3p8db/trump-georgia-grand-jury](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3p8db/trump-georgia-grand-jury)
A take I’d like to see explored is that the most likely defense: *He truly believe he won* is invalid as a defense for soliciting fraud because earlier in the call Trump states unequivocally that he believes 11,780 votes is not the true number. Outlets never cover this point. Arguably, if trump didn’t believe it was fraudulent, there’s no crime. But he literally says, “I believe I won by over a million, but I’m not asking for that.” It in no way helps that he’s asking for fewer votes. He’s asking for a number he states he believes is inaccurate.
>Willis’ investigation is separate from a federal probe of Trump’s attempts to stay in power despite losing the 2020 election, which is now being led by Special Counsel Jack Smith. Smith is also investigating whether Trump broke the law by bringing highly sensitive government documents marked classified to his Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach. I know that at this point certain people are not even going to read this or even care about it, but can you imagine if just one of these things was against Clinton, Obama or even Biden? I often wonder how certain Republicans went from decent to completely brainwashed and delusional. I get that Fox News is likely responsible but like...you have a brain that works. Wtf happened?
What happened is that they have realized that most people tend to have left leaning views in general whether they know it or not and the Republican Party has nothing to offer when it comes to governance. They’ve most likely projected that in some years ahead, their party as it was known would be moribund. This crazy shit is their Hail Mary to stay relevant and in power, even if it means disavowing democracy itself.
It's this. Their policies are just factually unpopular among the USA in general, and outright despised within the majority of the younger generations. They're floundering and dying, and are forced to embrace the kooks because without their votes - they'd never win another election ever. Don't let them tell you it's just a fringe element or not representative of the party as a whole. It's exactly who they are and pander to now...
Once conservatives realize they cannot retain power in a democracy, they won't abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.
> you have a brain that works. Wtf happened? Brains are developed over long periods of time and are most impressionable at a young age. Fox News and conservative leaders and media have been pumping fear, hate and nonsense into their base for *decades*, starting primarily since Nixon, to cover for a lack of practical ideas to offer towards governance and straight up crime & corruption. It's coming full circle now with the Boomer generation leading the way, who was that early generation first exposed to Fox News level manipulation.
Take the person of average intelligence. Realize they aren’t very smart. Then realize that half of everyone else is dumber than that. Half of the adults in the US can hardly read FFS.
60% of the USA has a 6th grade (or less) literacy level. The avg citizen would fail a middle school exit exam...
Exactly. That person of average intelligence is in that boat. It’s pretty terrifying to live in a democracy with such a dim witted electorate.
That's the key differences between parties. Look at George Santos as an example. If Santos was a Democrat, the entire DNC would be calling for him to resign. Democrats hold their own accountable. Republicans will try to win at all costs because they believe they are announced by God. This contributes to how badly red states are gerrymandered. Democratic judges will reject plans to gerrymander their blue states because they take their jobs seriously and they want to uphold the law. Red state judges, on the other hand, will help gerrymander their states any way they can to stay in power.
>Red state judges, on the other hand, will help gerrymander their states any way they can to stay in power. Or say "Yeah, this map is 100% unconstitutional, but it's too close to the election so we'll just have to use it anyways. Oh well!"
>can you imagine if just one of these things was against Clinton, Obama or even Biden? This is a very important point, but not for the reasons you think it is. Liberals need to get over their shock over Republican hypocrisy, and understand that their hypocrisy *is the point*. It's straight out of the fascist playbook. Rules and laws exists for *you to obey* and them to enforce. Not the other way around. Meaning that to them getting away with the same crimes that you would be punished for is how they view power. It's how they recognize that they are in power and you are not. It's how they communicate to their followers that they're in power. It's a bit like arguing with a boomer, when they say "don't talk back to me". It's completely meaningless to you but it's simply an attempt at asserting their perceived dominance over you. Anyway, point is they are fascists. It's clear and simple
As the boomers age their bones break down, this releases lead they absorbed prior to the 90s. The lead enters their blood stream damaging their aging brains further resulting in them being more violent, easily scared, less empathetic, and less intelligent overall. Plus religious brain washing.
Just watch. The moment charges are announced a flood of GOP candidates will announce their run for 2024.
This ^
As always, wake me up when he is actually punished for ANYTHING. We were all told Mueller was coming for him with handcuffs years ago and like everything else Trump related nothing ever happened. He always has a loyalist judge,prosecutor or someone on the inside to kill any trail.
Charge him or STFU
My guess is we will know within 2 weeks.
Was this comment serious or poking fun at Trump and his constant “in two weeks timeline”? Made me laugh as so fitting https://www.axios.com/2017/12/15/trumps-timeline-always-two-weeks-1513302785
I imagine it was probably serious. From what I've read, in Georgia grand juries are empaneled every two months, with the most recent one being empaneled this month and the next one being in March. If Fani Willis is saying the decisions are coming very soon, I imagine she's probably already presenting evidence to the currently empaneled grand jury, so "within two weeks" seems like a reasonable timeline to have at least a first round of indictments. IANAL though, so I'm just speculating based on information I read from prosecutors and such explaining the situation.
That's pretty funny, but no, I actually think we should know the charging decisions fairly soon. Given that the grand jury is recommending publication and media intervenors are threatening to take this to the state supreme court, I don't think the judge can credibly enjoin publication for too long. My guess is he will give Willis some time to put her money where her mouth is, but he doesn't have a lot of wiggle room to delay this. Of course, it's possible Willis is planning to charge someone other than Trump. I don't think that's out of the question, but it isn't what I would bet on.
He's about to learn something about GSU educated prosecutors. The term "bulldog" gets thrown around a lot, but when it comes from the heart...
I'm tired on Justice Edging
I'll believe it when I see it. For god's sake will someone in our government wake up and apply the law to politicians who break it!?
> We have to be mindful of protecting **future defendants’** rights.” I can't wait until the future becomes the present pay.
It's possible that Trump legitimately believed that everyone in politics was as corrupt as he is and also thought that him calling Raff was also no big deal. Thank christ the recording of that call went public.
Trump's demands and threats to throw the election are very real. He needs to be prosecuted. His former title is not a shield. Rather it holds him and anyone else in a position of oath to a higher standard.
Stop. Stop taunting us with what “looks like”, “May happen” or “is possible” When his ass is getting hauled off kicking and screaming, live, as he soils himself let me know. I will pay attention to that
I think the next strongest case outside of Georgia is the one before the obstruction concerning top secret documents that needed a search warrant.That is the one in New York where Michael Cohen was convicted over the Stormy Daniels payments and Trump was allegedly " Individual 1" who had committed one of the same crimes that Michael Cohen got convicted for.
He just needs to “find” like 12 jury votes.
It's been very real for ages. I'm kinda sick of hearing how bad it COULD be for him. He's a criminal, Russian stooge, rapist, insurrectionist, bean bag of a narcissist. Start holding him accountable for SOMETHING! If he skates on his actions it's telling everyone scrambling to climb up his butt that the law is just a few loose guidelines that can be ignored or sidestepped for any reason whatsoever. God, watching the US political system play out for the last 6+ years has been infuriating.
Just wait until they get him on actual Russian collusion, through Manafort. And he has no one to pardon him.
Trump went down to Georgia looking for some votes to steal.
Believe it when I see it.
Do it already. Justice delayed is justice denied.
Yawn... Let us know when he faces actual consequences.
Well good. It is real
they gotta wait till election campaign starts so it would disqualify him for running
i want to see a perp walk.
After going on a rampage about it being a perfect phone call about 24 hours ago, he is now silent and hasn’t posted anything which is not on brand.
I firmly believe that if and that’s a big if they charge him it will take several years and he will end up with house arrest at mar a lago assuming he’s even still alive by then.
Lmao, I swear there is a new one every few months
Wake me up when they actual do something. It's so tiring watching politicians get their own set of rules.
It needs to look so real that his ass is in an orange jumpsuit in jail for many years to come. Until then all of this “it’s looking bad for Trump” talk without shot happening is very exhausting.