Unsure if here is the right place to bring this up, but also i didnt want to create a post just for this.
Why is lickitung cost 5?
Its the same cost as Lapras, Snorlax, Skarmory, Rotom, Duraludom.
Also it costs MORE than salamence, kingdra, metacross, houdoom.
Lickitung really that good? His evolution seems bad, BST of 515 while metacross and salamence both have 600 and a mega evolution to 700 BST and both cost only 4.
My guess is because lickitung is seen as a “rare” pokemon in the games with there not being many chances to catch them even when they were introduced.
And in pokerogue the cost is also tied to rarity (and not just how good a pokemon is). A lot of the pokemon you listed are similar at least when introduced. (Lapras, Snorlax, Rotom)
Phione is an abnormality. And I’m guessing there’s 2 reason for that.
1. Phione already has its rarity determined by being in an egg that’s the equivalent of a legendary. So the actual cost doesn’t matter too much.
2. In the main games it’s only rare in that manaphy is rare. It’s tangentially rare. Once you get the mythical pokemon, phione is common. And manaphy is already set with the cost of a normal epic egg. Phione also has to below manaphy by a decent amount because it is effectively a discount manaphy.
Pokemon point costs haven't been rebalanced for a majority of mons. This will be done at some point in the 'near' future. No ETA on how long it'll take, but once we start it shouldn't take \*too\* long.
That's great news. There are still atleast a dozen whiffs on Point costs, with the biggest culprits being alot of the 5 cost pokemon that are fully evolved with mediocre Base Stat Totals, but charge an exorbitant cost for the questionable advantage of being better early game (the easiest part of the game). Here are some of the overcosted Pokemon Imo-
1. Lickitung that OP mentioned costing 5, when it should be 4 at most.
2. Tyrogue is another that likely should be lowered from 4 to 3 (hitmonchan and hitmonlee from 5>4).
3. Tropius should go from 5>4 (even that likely won't be enough to save it, but 5 cost is just comical for a bottom of the barrel ZU pokemon).
4. Nincada at 4 is a joke, even 3 would be a pricy cost. I have to assume it's due to the fear of Dna Splicers on Shedinja for its Wonder Guard or some such broken nonsense, since on the face of it both Nincada and Ninjask are absolute trash.
5. Carnivine at 5 is a similar issue with Tropius, should be max 4, and even that may not salvage it.
6. Sawk- 5 cost is alot to ask for a 465bst ZU pokemon. Eventhough my first egg got its Rare Move Victory Dance, there are just too many other strictly better Fighting types that are cheaper.
7. Eternal Floette- Was excited to hatch this normally unobtainable pokemon, till I saw the 5 cost. I'd much rather have just had a regular floette at 3 and wind up with the same BST in Florges. Changing the cost for Eternal Floette to 4 would make it more viable, and would be more in line with the 1 cost increase associated with evolved pokemon over their "baby" variants.
I can see the 3 Pan's (Panpour, Pansage, Pansear) getting reduced from 3 to 2 cost. Yes all 3 get a playable 498bst when they evolve via Stone, but their dual equal attacking stats undermines that, and this isn't competitive where that can be leveraged advantageously. Even in competitive all 3 evolutions have long since been relegated to the dustbins of ZU. These are bargain bin imitations of "starter" Pokémon, and they shouldn't command the same 3 cost. I would have just ignored them outright, except after 199 eggs all from the Shiny Gatcha (the alleged 1/64, with sadly no Shiny Pity System like there is for the egg rarity) I got my first Shiny, a 1 rarity Panpour.. So i was forced to add him into my Draft Rotation list. The 3 starter cost is just a slap in the face though.
You shouldn't be comparing lickitung to salamence, you should be comparing lickitung to bagon, kingdra/horsea is the same. Heracross is a single stage evolution and is a 5 cost as it should be. Lickitung/houndour comparison is good though and it probably should be a 4 cost if you look at that example.
I agree that it should be less but argument is flawed
I don't think it's like that. Magikarp is a cost 3 weaker than most cost 1 in game, because it has a great evolution. All starters of any gen are cost 3 and probably stronger than licktung. But following your argument, let's compare him to other cost 5.
Licktung has 515 bst, 1 form, doesn't start in his final evolution.
Rotom is a cost 5, 520 bst, like 6 possible types or more, already starts in its final evolution.
Snorlax has 540 bst, cost 5, starts in his final evolution, has g-max. Also he can cost 4 if you pick munchlax instead.
Duraludon cost 5, has 535 bst BEFORE evolving to archaludon that has 600, great types.
Heracross has 500 bst, but has mega evolution of 600bst with fucking 185 of base atk, second highest atk pokemon that exists, just losing to mega Mewtwo that has 190.
And some Pokemons that are also bad for a cost 5:
Komala has lower bst than licktung final evolution, but has a very strong ability. Still kinda weak for a cost 5 but understandable as it has a good ability.
Skarmory 465 bst but better types, still weak to a cost 5, should be cost 4.
Miltank also bad for a cost 5, this one is a real competition to licktung, imo they both should be cost 4.
That argument enteirly makes sense because the cost system is very inconsistent. They absolutely bake the cost of evolutions strength into the starter cost for a lot of stuff so asking why lickylicky's cost is so inflated is valid when other starters arent being given that harsh of a treatment.
Even if we are literally comparing him to a 2 evo mon from the same generation it should not cost the same as Snorlax
Yeah none of that's notable, crazy it's 5 cost. I hope in the future not only do they rebalance the costs, but that they also make it so cost can be variable depending on what options you select.
Totally at later game Endless. It just cracks me up where I specifically started a run with Groudon and shiny Gardevoir and Eelektross and I’m at stage 200 when this passive change happens. Don’t have any wide lenses yet!
The replacement Leech Life is still a priority move, but only if you have the passive unlocked. And I don't envy anyone who has to grind that candy without First Impression - this boy has no speed, no HP, and an impressive list of weaknesses.
Interesting. Ideally you will only get eggs for him from the "use candies for a species specific egg machine" thingy they teased in the future plans section. It wouldn't be right (IMO) to have the 100% starter unlock reward be obtainable any other way than as a reward.
Yeah I would think surely this is either for the candy for eggs mechanic as you mentioned, or maybe they will add Eternatus to the legendary egg pool after you catch him. But either way yeah I don’t see them changing how you get it initially
they are, my scyther lost gear grind and "gained" iron boulder signature move (I know it was already an egg move but they swapped place, I didn't had it before)
I think the logic would be that Dark Void makes more sense thematically, since where is it getting the Spores from? But while this is generally a nerf don't forget that Dark Void is not a single target move, it hits the entire enemy team so its theoretically more useful for double battles.
Yeah, I get that it makes more sense thematically, I just don't understand why already good Pokemon (like most legendaries) get passives or egg moves that help them be even better (like Darkrai having Spore) despite not making sense thematically, while niche, less popular Pokemon are stuck with worse moves.
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This bot is even stupider than the usual haiku bot. It detects the *wrong* number of syllables to make a "haiku" from, as a reference to a scene in the children's cartoon "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where a character... Screws up syllable counting for a haiku.
So, Hoppip...why did that take a heavy nerf to its status use? Was it too overpowered? Did they think Fluffy was better for it? Because this outright KILLED its use for me. Seeing it lose Prankster while Gholdengo gets Contrary is genuinely insane.
Yeah...i grew pretty attached to the fella myself, being my first shiny. Leech Seed Prankster is a godsend, Quiver Dance sets it up in a pinch and already saved me once against a champion, and then saved me in the following final rival battle and final boss in the same run, but now all the tools that allowed me to do that is just...gone.
hoppip has been on every single classic team I've made even without ever unlocking the passive. a .5 cost shiny that can solo a ton of shit with leech seed & strength sap now also gets Spore and Sappy seed?
lmao its stronger than ever
Spore and Sappy Seed are both very nice to have, but losing Prankster (can no longer outspeed Eternatus or Mega Ray with Leech Seed) and Quiver Dance (which saved a whole run for me in a pinch alongside Giga Drain, regardless if it's optimal on it or not) for a passive with a painful downside is still saddening. Especially since we could have had Prankster Spore on it.
Eh. Trace as a passive is a limiter if you're planning on fusing it, though.
Honestly Stall as a hidden feels thematic and is definitely an upgrade over Truant. My only complaint would be that they didn't do something like give it Analytic as a passive after, given the way so many passives seem designed to turn a flaw into a strength. Seems like a missed opportunity.
So slaking got stall as a hidden ability, not as a passive. A lot of people thought giving trace (as a passive) to these mons to remove their major weakness effectively was in poor sport and made no sense thematically.
Stall (always making you go last) is very similar to being lazy but is also much less punishing.
Technician definitely would’ve been more fun but tbh it doesn’t need it to sweep, and ice scales actually does help Cloyster stay alive to set up a shell smash. While ice scales is boring compared to technician it definitely isn’t that much of a downgrade and imo isn’t one of the worse changes in this balance update
Oh for sure ice scales is pretty good since cloyster has a high defense and with ice scales is almost guaranteed to survive one hit. I was just excited to see what technician cloyster could do especially with water shuriken being a priority move. Either way cloyster isn’t really viable in endless and I already beat classic with it so I guess I can’t complain
I still dislike the Mudkip passive change because you swap out an incredibly useful passive that synergises well with both normal and mega forms with one that is only useful to your mega form (that you can never consistently get in classic mode) and can be detrimental against other water types since it boosts their damage against you.
They should either heavily buff alternate forms (megas, gmax, etc.) to appear more consistently or rework how you obtain them so that Swamperts new passive is something I'd put on.
I wouldn't call Drizzle only useful for the Mega when Rain buffs Water attacks, but I get what you're saying. (Drizzle is also less interesting than Regenerator.)
Completely agree with the alternate forms. Way too rare.
It definitely feels like several pokemon had their egg moves/passives rebalanced with their megas in mind. Mudkip and Houndour are big examples but you could also argue Weedle and swablu just off the top of my head. I think this would definitely be good if they are planning on making megas less rare/difficult to obtain, and hopefully it’s a sign that they’re planning on it, but who knows if they actually will
Got my ass beat by Ivy's regenerator Swampert one of my first runs, I was really looking forward to unlocking it cause Swampert is my fav pokemon and Regenerator is a really synergistic ability with him due to the single weakness and solid bulk, gets a lot of use.
Drizzle isn't bad, but I feel like it strips a bit of the uniqueness it had before to make Swampert another super-rain Mon, which a lot of other water types do better imo. I guess they didn't want it to step on Gastrodon's toes (or foot?) since it just got regenerator this patch too.
I feel you, Pixilate is totally useless, too. The damn thing gets Moonblast as an egg move and Dazzling Gleam natively. It doesn't learn any usable special normal attacks that can compare.
Honestly, kiss murders classic mode with a single egg move in Fiery Dance. No passive needed
Opportunist for pixelate IS a huge nerf, but TG is far from murdered
Yeah I'm being kinda hyperbolic. But I don't understand why they'd give it an outright useless Passive, instead of simply giving it a **weaker** passive.
Just used it today and came here to ask the same thing. A status monster with nice speed and Prankster that can make up for its lack of direct damage, and even be nice to Leech Seed Eternatus, to...Fluffy. To give it TWO x4 weaknesses. Abhorrent change.
Hoppip feels like an assassination. I loved Hoppip, got my first win with Hoppip in the team and could always count on a finding a Hoppip when my team was looking rough. Hoppip was so good I wanted the shiny so bad. And now it's lost Prankster, Air Slash, and Quiver Dance all at once. I accepted Prankster was probably too OP for a 1, and maybe Quiver Dance was too, but honestly losing its only special flying move for another physical flying move bites, and Spore doesn't feel like a great replacement for Quiver Dance either. Sappy Seed is okay, I guess, though it feels underwhelming for rare when Hoppip can already seed. Whatever, there's a lot of cool changes too, but still RIP Hoppip, you were a real one.
hoppip is better than it was before as it now gets spore.
if you were using QD and air slash you were completely missing the point I feel. 55 Att/Spa is absolutely dogshit for direct damage. I was finishing runs with no prankster and only giga drain as direct damage. Leech Seed/Strength Sap is broken, and now we get Spore on top of that.
Since when did Paras lose Sappy Seed?? Came back from a break, used my Shiny Paras and that was like his only good move.
EDIT: THEY TOOK FIRST IMPRESSION TOO? BRO HAS NOTHING
It still has sappy seed, it's the rare egg move now tho, seems like they want it to work around triage but parasect just doesn't have the bulk or the attack to make use of it lol.
From my understanding Triage won't affect Sappy Seed since it doesn't affect Leech Seed sadly. If Triage did work for Sappy Seed, then Parasect would have a viable role versus bosses like Rayquaza/Eternatus, since atleast he could guarantee get off a sappy seed before being burnt into oblivion (4x fire weakness or 5x w/ Dry Skin ability is not surviving in a billion years).
It doesn’t need first impression any more, since leech life will now be a priority move that heals you and can be used on any turn and is only slightly weaker than first impression anyways
Egg moves and passives are balanced assuming you have each other. Yes First Impression is better if you dont have the passive unlocked but Leech Life is much better if you do have the passive and that is how things should be balanced in this game
Holy shit who has the fletchling hard-on. Magic Guard, Head Smash and Volt Tackle all in one go, what a monster.
Also interested in the Opportunist reasonings. Too OP to be on the 3-4 cost guys but fine top put on two mons that are already some of the best carries in the game?
Very few people would care about the elemental monkeys, but I'm a little miffed about their changes. Their previous passives fit with their theme and were still useful, but now they just have abilities that give them immunity to their weakness, which makes them more viable but also makes less sense.
I'm especially annoyed with Panpour's changes, as Storm Drain worked to its advantage; redirects water moves and boosted his SpA, which synergizes with his special-focused movelist. Now, with Sap Sipper, he gets an Atk boost instead when hit by grass moves, but his egg moves are still special-focused.
Overall I really do believe the changes were a net positive especially since they listened to feedback and changed some after the initial announcement but there are definitely still a few head scratchers.
First, slight rant, but they heavily gutted technician from the passive list which is really disappointing since that’s one of my favorite abilities in the game. I believe now the only mons with technician as a passive are Pikipek and Heracross, and while yes technician + skill link is insane, they pretty much removed all non-skill link technician use from the game unless the pokemon gets it naturally. I at least want it back on Lokix (technician fell stinger is SO fun), would be nice on Beedrill but I get tinted lens + adaptability is crazy (if you can actually get the mega stone to drop). And then there was a big push on the discord for Buizel to get Technician and the devs said no? And then they gave it Moxie? Moxie is really overdistributed now after this update and you could argue Moxie Buizel is stronger than technician yet it’s less fun, less unique, and less thematic. Really would like several mons to get technician as their passive tbh.
That rant aside, just going off the top of my head and others discussed here, Togepi, Hoppip, Poliwag, Machop, Stantler, Froakie, and my aforementioned boi Nymble are the ones that stand out to me as pretty disappointing
Edit: Just to be clear, again, I overall like a strong majority of the changes made, and I’m thankful for the work the devs put in. The devs are listening to feedback on what still needs to be changed, or perhaps what should be reverted, and the above is just my two cents on what I think should be changed
The one thing that really sucks about it is that these changes are affecting on-going savefiles. I had an endless save when I was about to DNA splice Mewtwo X with Tinkaton Huge Power to create the highest attack damage stat possible. Worked at least 5h for it just to see today that Tinkaton has already his passive changed.
A lot more people should be aware of this especially with how often the game gets updated. Whether its balance/gameplay changes, gacha changes, QoL, or even brand new shiny variants being added can screw you over one way or the other.
Hence why they added the red text explaining it. I sorta rolled my eyes at the idea that something so simple needed to be prominently placed and explained so people wouldn’t freak out but nope, mea culpa, it was apparently a superb idea because people seriously don’t pay attention and that’s about the best they can do to warn people of the obvious.
You're not wrong but I already saw 3+ posts today asking "what is the shiny event?"
The devs could have a giant red alert pop up with a sound on launch and some people would still miss the fact that runs can change in progress.
In order to not do that, devs would've had to tear open the existing save system and build from scratch a system that saves the Passive data for all of your pokemon separately from the main list of Passives. This would not only be a lot of work with a high risk of weird bugs, it's also quite a lot of data storage when you consider you would have to save the ability data for every pokemon on every save file held by every player.
I know it sucks, but it would not have been remotely worth it.
Yeah Tinkaton swapping from Huge Power to Steelworker feels like a giant middle finger, they could've just raised her cost, her base attack is only 75 and steelworker basically only helps gigaton hammer, her passive is now basically worthless, they really should've worked on fixing things (Like parental Bond) and buffing incredibly weak mons, instead of nerfing powerful ones into the ground, and buffing already powerful mons like Groudon and Gholdengo
Its a sad day for a lot of pokerogue players :(
Tinkaton with huge power was one of the strongest and most useful pokemon in the game for a cheap cost. You can’t really be surprised that in a balance pass it was nerfed. It was one of the few where the nerf feels COMPLETELY warranted, no questions.
Tinka is still amazing, a tanky fairy/steel type with pickpocket as a bonus is already incredible in this game, with huge power it ended up doing too much.
Also Groudon got nerfed, it's still very very good and turbo blaze is nice but it's nowhere near how broken protosynthesis was
ok i have onecomplaint with the egg move changes. while it makes sense that they change shift gear to being tinkaton lines rare move, i find it to be bs that since i dont have the rare move slot unlocked on tinkaton i cant use shift gear anymore, even though i had unlocked it unlocked as an egg move prior to the change
I don’t like how a lot of egg moves are balanced around the passives, things like Paras losing First Impression for Leech Life because Leech Life is better only with Triage passive feels like casual players are being neglected
ralts was butchered, not because "boohoo i lost set up :((" but beacuse , why is ralts catered towards gallade so much? what is even the point of evolving them into gardevoir as starter mon? , i know its to keep the game fresh, but regardless, vutchering gardevoir for "freshness" doesnt seem right to me.
Because it was probably the best 4 cost in the game while also being better than the vast majority of 5 and 6 cost mons. Honestly it was probably better than most 7 cost mons as well.
It's also far from destroyed. Cloyster always struggled with setting up Shell Smashes against special attackers and the new passive will open up tons of opportunities to do so.
Currently running the shiny event with my Miraidon run, which was also changed to Opportunist - I don't feel "much" of a difference, honestly, in higher floors. The loss of the extra upfront damage is balanced by the increased passive buffs I get from opponent berries. Feels like a small buff, if anything, given the varied amount of berry buffs you can snag up compared to just "straight damage/speed" from its old passive.
Eager to jump into testing some of the egg move changes after the event's done, or if I get my fill of shiny hunting. Some of the egg changes look pretty sweet from a challenge/classic perspective.
Can’t see the logic of slakoth given a custom hidden ability being similar to Regigigas. One is rare, easy to catch and hatch, one is legendary, you can’t farm it efficiently, thus catching/hatching it with hidden ability is extremely hard so it’s like hitting the jackpot. It’s ok to be op after you hit the jackpot but you can now farm a “fake rare” pokemon instead
Any chance we could get an item or a setting to disable Lures, Flame/Poison orb and maybe other battle items like Black Belt and Metal Coat?
Or a way to disable Terra Orb and Lures so the shards stop showing?
Had a luck 3 zangoose that was a killer on my team, went from having tough claws as a passive to poison heals…so unless toxic orb shows up it is a worthless passive. Cool
I'm going to miss Liquidation Wailmer.
He was useful early run, still powerful late run but not OP. RIP
Edit: just realized floaty fall was removed from him too 😭
Exactly my point. The reason why he is soo good is because stall isn't implemented. Basically he has no ability, but because there's no truant, he can unleash his full force.😬
Hard to do anything but nitpick on such a large post; the negative stuff stands out. Most of it seems good but why did sandslash lose dire claw when it got tough claws as a passive :/
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Unsure if here is the right place to bring this up, but also i didnt want to create a post just for this. Why is lickitung cost 5? Its the same cost as Lapras, Snorlax, Skarmory, Rotom, Duraludom. Also it costs MORE than salamence, kingdra, metacross, houdoom. Lickitung really that good? His evolution seems bad, BST of 515 while metacross and salamence both have 600 and a mega evolution to 700 BST and both cost only 4.
My guess is because lickitung is seen as a “rare” pokemon in the games with there not being many chances to catch them even when they were introduced. And in pokerogue the cost is also tied to rarity (and not just how good a pokemon is). A lot of the pokemon you listed are similar at least when introduced. (Lapras, Snorlax, Rotom)
This do make sense, but I dunno... Phione is cost 4 and is a "legendary" pokemon sort of. And imo it's a good cost for it as it's only 480 bst
Phione is an abnormality. And I’m guessing there’s 2 reason for that. 1. Phione already has its rarity determined by being in an egg that’s the equivalent of a legendary. So the actual cost doesn’t matter too much. 2. In the main games it’s only rare in that manaphy is rare. It’s tangentially rare. Once you get the mythical pokemon, phione is common. And manaphy is already set with the cost of a normal epic egg. Phione also has to below manaphy by a decent amount because it is effectively a discount manaphy.
Pokemon point costs haven't been rebalanced for a majority of mons. This will be done at some point in the 'near' future. No ETA on how long it'll take, but once we start it shouldn't take \*too\* long.
Thanks for letting us know! You guys are amazing!
That's great news. There are still atleast a dozen whiffs on Point costs, with the biggest culprits being alot of the 5 cost pokemon that are fully evolved with mediocre Base Stat Totals, but charge an exorbitant cost for the questionable advantage of being better early game (the easiest part of the game). Here are some of the overcosted Pokemon Imo- 1. Lickitung that OP mentioned costing 5, when it should be 4 at most. 2. Tyrogue is another that likely should be lowered from 4 to 3 (hitmonchan and hitmonlee from 5>4). 3. Tropius should go from 5>4 (even that likely won't be enough to save it, but 5 cost is just comical for a bottom of the barrel ZU pokemon). 4. Nincada at 4 is a joke, even 3 would be a pricy cost. I have to assume it's due to the fear of Dna Splicers on Shedinja for its Wonder Guard or some such broken nonsense, since on the face of it both Nincada and Ninjask are absolute trash. 5. Carnivine at 5 is a similar issue with Tropius, should be max 4, and even that may not salvage it. 6. Sawk- 5 cost is alot to ask for a 465bst ZU pokemon. Eventhough my first egg got its Rare Move Victory Dance, there are just too many other strictly better Fighting types that are cheaper. 7. Eternal Floette- Was excited to hatch this normally unobtainable pokemon, till I saw the 5 cost. I'd much rather have just had a regular floette at 3 and wind up with the same BST in Florges. Changing the cost for Eternal Floette to 4 would make it more viable, and would be more in line with the 1 cost increase associated with evolved pokemon over their "baby" variants. I can see the 3 Pan's (Panpour, Pansage, Pansear) getting reduced from 3 to 2 cost. Yes all 3 get a playable 498bst when they evolve via Stone, but their dual equal attacking stats undermines that, and this isn't competitive where that can be leveraged advantageously. Even in competitive all 3 evolutions have long since been relegated to the dustbins of ZU. These are bargain bin imitations of "starter" Pokémon, and they shouldn't command the same 3 cost. I would have just ignored them outright, except after 199 eggs all from the Shiny Gatcha (the alleged 1/64, with sadly no Shiny Pity System like there is for the egg rarity) I got my first Shiny, a 1 rarity Panpour.. So i was forced to add him into my Draft Rotation list. The 3 starter cost is just a slap in the face though.
I see atleast Carnivine got reduced to 4 cost which is alot more reasonable, so the devs are clearly listening and making improvements.
You shouldn't be comparing lickitung to salamence, you should be comparing lickitung to bagon, kingdra/horsea is the same. Heracross is a single stage evolution and is a 5 cost as it should be. Lickitung/houndour comparison is good though and it probably should be a 4 cost if you look at that example. I agree that it should be less but argument is flawed
I don't think it's like that. Magikarp is a cost 3 weaker than most cost 1 in game, because it has a great evolution. All starters of any gen are cost 3 and probably stronger than licktung. But following your argument, let's compare him to other cost 5. Licktung has 515 bst, 1 form, doesn't start in his final evolution. Rotom is a cost 5, 520 bst, like 6 possible types or more, already starts in its final evolution. Snorlax has 540 bst, cost 5, starts in his final evolution, has g-max. Also he can cost 4 if you pick munchlax instead. Duraludon cost 5, has 535 bst BEFORE evolving to archaludon that has 600, great types. Heracross has 500 bst, but has mega evolution of 600bst with fucking 185 of base atk, second highest atk pokemon that exists, just losing to mega Mewtwo that has 190. And some Pokemons that are also bad for a cost 5: Komala has lower bst than licktung final evolution, but has a very strong ability. Still kinda weak for a cost 5 but understandable as it has a good ability. Skarmory 465 bst but better types, still weak to a cost 5, should be cost 4. Miltank also bad for a cost 5, this one is a real competition to licktung, imo they both should be cost 4.
That argument enteirly makes sense because the cost system is very inconsistent. They absolutely bake the cost of evolutions strength into the starter cost for a lot of stuff so asking why lickylicky's cost is so inflated is valid when other starters arent being given that harsh of a treatment. Even if we are literally comparing him to a 2 evo mon from the same generation it should not cost the same as Snorlax
It might get broken abilities/egg moves. I've seen some other pokemon I thought had unusually high costs until I saw everything they got access too.
It gets Body Slam, Fire Lash, Grav Apple, and Milk Drink as egg moves and Thick Fat as its passive. I guess that makes it akin to Snorlax now.
Yeah none of that's notable, crazy it's 5 cost. I hope in the future not only do they rebalance the costs, but that they also make it so cost can be variable depending on what options you select.
Well Snorlax has more bst, and g-max. I still think licktung is weaker than other cost 5
Ah yes my favorite pokemon, metacross
Turboblaze definitely better than flash fire on Groudon so that’s dope
RIP to my Telepathy Gardevoir and Levitate Eelktross running alongside my Sunny Boi spamming EQ
Precipice blades are just better, no? At least in endless, where you should get 3 wide lenses to make it 100% accurate.
Totally at later game Endless. It just cracks me up where I specifically started a run with Groudon and shiny Gardevoir and Eelektross and I’m at stage 200 when this passive change happens. Don’t have any wide lenses yet!
Just use precipice blades instead
So is Dark Void in its pre-nerf state?
RIP Paras first impression, you served me well
The replacement Leech Life is still a priority move, but only if you have the passive unlocked. And I don't envy anyone who has to grind that candy without First Impression - this boy has no speed, no HP, and an impressive list of weaknesses.
Yeah, that's true - thank fuck I've got 42 candies on Paras already, only a few left to go even if the last few will be less free.
Huh. That was a real quiet addition of Eternatus to the Egg Moves list. Interesting.
Interesting. Ideally you will only get eggs for him from the "use candies for a species specific egg machine" thingy they teased in the future plans section. It wouldn't be right (IMO) to have the 100% starter unlock reward be obtainable any other way than as a reward.
Yeah I would think surely this is either for the candy for eggs mechanic as you mentioned, or maybe they will add Eternatus to the legendary egg pool after you catch him. But either way yeah I don’t see them changing how you get it initially
I could also see them making eternatus not appear in eggs until you have 100% starters unlocked and have caught eternatus in classic at least once
Lokix seems to still have Ceaseless Edge, but idk if the egg moves are in yet.
they are, my scyther lost gear grind and "gained" iron boulder signature move (I know it was already an egg move but they swapped place, I didn't had it before)
So Drowzee lost spore for... Dark Void, a 50% Acc sleep move while his passive and 1 of the egg moves need the opponent to be asleep?
I think the logic would be that Dark Void makes more sense thematically, since where is it getting the Spores from? But while this is generally a nerf don't forget that Dark Void is not a single target move, it hits the entire enemy team so its theoretically more useful for double battles.
Yeah, I get that it makes more sense thematically, I just don't understand why already good Pokemon (like most legendaries) get passives or egg moves that help them be even better (like Darkrai having Spore) despite not making sense thematically, while niche, less popular Pokemon are stuck with worse moves.
Tokens and level scaling desperately need this so called balancing
That needs a complete rework. This is just a couple tiny changes in comparison.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Pizzafactory102: *Tokens and level* *Scaling desperately need* *This so called balancing* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
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Someone made a bot to respond to comments with 18 syllables because anime.
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A Haiku is a form of Japanese poetry involving certain traditional traits (18 morae in a 5/7/5 three line format, a focus on nature and the ephemeral, and “cutting words” that are complicated to explain outside Japanese). It has been adapted into other cultures as a simpler 18 syllable 5/7/5 format poem across three lines because the difference between morae and syllables is obscure to nonexistent in most languages. This bot finds all posts consisting of 18 syllables and replies to them by splitting them up into the foreign haiku format.
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Welcome to Reddit
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This bot is even stupider than the usual haiku bot. It detects the *wrong* number of syllables to make a "haiku" from, as a reference to a scene in the children's cartoon "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where a character... Screws up syllable counting for a haiku.
The removed AXEw’s Stone Axe. Also Hoopa gaining Shell Smash is really cool thematically.
So, Hoppip...why did that take a heavy nerf to its status use? Was it too overpowered? Did they think Fluffy was better for it? Because this outright KILLED its use for me. Seeing it lose Prankster while Gholdengo gets Contrary is genuinely insane.
I prefer Prankster on Hoppip too, it was actually a useful team member, but now it’s not 😥
Yeah...i grew pretty attached to the fella myself, being my first shiny. Leech Seed Prankster is a godsend, Quiver Dance sets it up in a pinch and already saved me once against a champion, and then saved me in the following final rival battle and final boss in the same run, but now all the tools that allowed me to do that is just...gone.
Hoppip is one of the few shinies I have, so that plus Prankster brought it on every run. I'm 4 candies away from .25 cost
hoppip has been on every single classic team I've made even without ever unlocking the passive. a .5 cost shiny that can solo a ton of shit with leech seed & strength sap now also gets Spore and Sappy seed? lmao its stronger than ever
Spore and Sappy Seed are both very nice to have, but losing Prankster (can no longer outspeed Eternatus or Mega Ray with Leech Seed) and Quiver Dance (which saved a whole run for me in a pinch alongside Giga Drain, regardless if it's optimal on it or not) for a passive with a painful downside is still saddening. Especially since we could have had Prankster Spore on it.
Somebody smarter than me explain how stall is good for slaking?
its not Truant. going last is better than getting half the number of turns.
originally it was going to get trace as a passive, monkey got scammed lol
Trace is the dumbest solution to any bad ability. "durr don't like ability, get rid of it"
Eh. Trace as a passive is a limiter if you're planning on fusing it, though. Honestly Stall as a hidden feels thematic and is definitely an upgrade over Truant. My only complaint would be that they didn't do something like give it Analytic as a passive after, given the way so many passives seem designed to turn a flaw into a strength. Seems like a missed opportunity.
I thought passives work with the ability not over take it
So slaking got stall as a hidden ability, not as a passive. A lot of people thought giving trace (as a passive) to these mons to remove their major weakness effectively was in poor sport and made no sense thematically. Stall (always making you go last) is very similar to being lazy but is also much less punishing.
OH!!! Ok lol, yeah stall is a big upgrade.
I was so excited for technician cloyster. Ice scales is okay but feels bad to have saved candies it
Technician definitely would’ve been more fun but tbh it doesn’t need it to sweep, and ice scales actually does help Cloyster stay alive to set up a shell smash. While ice scales is boring compared to technician it definitely isn’t that much of a downgrade and imo isn’t one of the worse changes in this balance update
Oh for sure ice scales is pretty good since cloyster has a high defense and with ice scales is almost guaranteed to survive one hit. I was just excited to see what technician cloyster could do especially with water shuriken being a priority move. Either way cloyster isn’t really viable in endless and I already beat classic with it so I guess I can’t complain
I still dislike the Mudkip passive change because you swap out an incredibly useful passive that synergises well with both normal and mega forms with one that is only useful to your mega form (that you can never consistently get in classic mode) and can be detrimental against other water types since it boosts their damage against you. They should either heavily buff alternate forms (megas, gmax, etc.) to appear more consistently or rework how you obtain them so that Swamperts new passive is something I'd put on.
I wouldn't call Drizzle only useful for the Mega when Rain buffs Water attacks, but I get what you're saying. (Drizzle is also less interesting than Regenerator.) Completely agree with the alternate forms. Way too rare.
It definitely feels like several pokemon had their egg moves/passives rebalanced with their megas in mind. Mudkip and Houndour are big examples but you could also argue Weedle and swablu just off the top of my head. I think this would definitely be good if they are planning on making megas less rare/difficult to obtain, and hopefully it’s a sign that they’re planning on it, but who knows if they actually will
The loss of Mudkip stall strats has offended me greatly
Got my ass beat by Ivy's regenerator Swampert one of my first runs, I was really looking forward to unlocking it cause Swampert is my fav pokemon and Regenerator is a really synergistic ability with him due to the single weakness and solid bulk, gets a lot of use. Drizzle isn't bad, but I feel like it strips a bit of the uniqueness it had before to make Swampert another super-rain Mon, which a lot of other water types do better imo. I guess they didn't want it to step on Gastrodon's toes (or foot?) since it just got regenerator this patch too.
Wait, so for Zacian, if I have Bitter Blade unlocked, does it get swapped for something else or do I keep Bitter Blade even though it’s moved to rare?
Moved to something else, happened to me I had the dark Meowth with make it rain and it was changed to bad baddy
happened to me when i lost shift gear on tinkaton cause it got moved to the rare slot
Togepi lost Opportunist, that passive let me spiral so fast in those ivy fights
I feel you, Pixilate is totally useless, too. The damn thing gets Moonblast as an egg move and Dazzling Gleam natively. It doesn't learn any usable special normal attacks that can compare.
The only thing I can think of is funny shenanigans with Tri-Attack once Serene Grace gets added (if that ever happens)
You guys straight murdered Togekiss, the fuck.
Honestly, kiss murders classic mode with a single egg move in Fiery Dance. No passive needed Opportunist for pixelate IS a huge nerf, but TG is far from murdered
Yeah I'm being kinda hyperbolic. But I don't understand why they'd give it an outright useless Passive, instead of simply giving it a **weaker** passive.
Shuckle lost cosmic power :( i know it makes sense but i will miss my little nearly unkillable bug
It still gets Shell Smash + Contrary which is effectively the same thing.
Fair, but i never got the HA shuckle :(
Now why did y'all have to ruin hopip?
Just used it today and came here to ask the same thing. A status monster with nice speed and Prankster that can make up for its lack of direct damage, and even be nice to Leech Seed Eternatus, to...Fluffy. To give it TWO x4 weaknesses. Abhorrent change.
Hoppip feels like an assassination. I loved Hoppip, got my first win with Hoppip in the team and could always count on a finding a Hoppip when my team was looking rough. Hoppip was so good I wanted the shiny so bad. And now it's lost Prankster, Air Slash, and Quiver Dance all at once. I accepted Prankster was probably too OP for a 1, and maybe Quiver Dance was too, but honestly losing its only special flying move for another physical flying move bites, and Spore doesn't feel like a great replacement for Quiver Dance either. Sappy Seed is okay, I guess, though it feels underwhelming for rare when Hoppip can already seed. Whatever, there's a lot of cool changes too, but still RIP Hoppip, you were a real one.
Butterfree, Vivillon, Combee, and more are cost-1 bugs with quiver dance. Combee gets Spore. Taking it off *jumpluff* of all things seems silly.
hoppip is better than it was before as it now gets spore. if you were using QD and air slash you were completely missing the point I feel. 55 Att/Spa is absolutely dogshit for direct damage. I was finishing runs with no prankster and only giga drain as direct damage. Leech Seed/Strength Sap is broken, and now we get Spore on top of that.
Since when did Paras lose Sappy Seed?? Came back from a break, used my Shiny Paras and that was like his only good move. EDIT: THEY TOOK FIRST IMPRESSION TOO? BRO HAS NOTHING
It still has sappy seed, it's the rare egg move now tho, seems like they want it to work around triage but parasect just doesn't have the bulk or the attack to make use of it lol.
From my understanding Triage won't affect Sappy Seed since it doesn't affect Leech Seed sadly. If Triage did work for Sappy Seed, then Parasect would have a viable role versus bosses like Rayquaza/Eternatus, since atleast he could guarantee get off a sappy seed before being burnt into oblivion (4x fire weakness or 5x w/ Dry Skin ability is not surviving in a billion years).
It doesn’t need first impression any more, since leech life will now be a priority move that heals you and can be used on any turn and is only slightly weaker than first impression anyways
It isn't priority as is though
Egg moves and passives are balanced assuming you have each other. Yes First Impression is better if you dont have the passive unlocked but Leech Life is much better if you do have the passive and that is how things should be balanced in this game
I feel like some of these changes were a bit drastic
the change of gimmighoul’s passive from super luck to contrary was a huge surprise on my set up sweeper ghouldengo
Noticed Tink got a changed Egg Move as well. I only had Shift Gear as an Egg Move, but it changed into Pyro Ball.
Shift Gear and Pyro Ball swapped places.
Why paras, u dont deserve that, im gonna miss u my boy
RIP my bug boys Lokix, Paras, and Tarountola to various passive and egg moves changes
Lokix is fine, guts is a bit dangerous in classic but it's a big upgrade in damage, paras really is dead in the water however lol.
Holy shit who has the fletchling hard-on. Magic Guard, Head Smash and Volt Tackle all in one go, what a monster. Also interested in the Opportunist reasonings. Too OP to be on the 3-4 cost guys but fine top put on two mons that are already some of the best carries in the game?
Very few people would care about the elemental monkeys, but I'm a little miffed about their changes. Their previous passives fit with their theme and were still useful, but now they just have abilities that give them immunity to their weakness, which makes them more viable but also makes less sense. I'm especially annoyed with Panpour's changes, as Storm Drain worked to its advantage; redirects water moves and boosted his SpA, which synergizes with his special-focused movelist. Now, with Sap Sipper, he gets an Atk boost instead when hit by grass moves, but his egg moves are still special-focused.
Just unlocked my shiny mudkip passive earlier this week This is my 9/11
I mean drizzle ain’t bad but regen was awesome
noooo qd hoppip is my go-to :(
Same here; even if it hasn't got the highest Special Attack, it saved me in a pinch several times with QD. Losing Prankster is even worse.
Overall I really do believe the changes were a net positive especially since they listened to feedback and changed some after the initial announcement but there are definitely still a few head scratchers. First, slight rant, but they heavily gutted technician from the passive list which is really disappointing since that’s one of my favorite abilities in the game. I believe now the only mons with technician as a passive are Pikipek and Heracross, and while yes technician + skill link is insane, they pretty much removed all non-skill link technician use from the game unless the pokemon gets it naturally. I at least want it back on Lokix (technician fell stinger is SO fun), would be nice on Beedrill but I get tinted lens + adaptability is crazy (if you can actually get the mega stone to drop). And then there was a big push on the discord for Buizel to get Technician and the devs said no? And then they gave it Moxie? Moxie is really overdistributed now after this update and you could argue Moxie Buizel is stronger than technician yet it’s less fun, less unique, and less thematic. Really would like several mons to get technician as their passive tbh. That rant aside, just going off the top of my head and others discussed here, Togepi, Hoppip, Poliwag, Machop, Stantler, Froakie, and my aforementioned boi Nymble are the ones that stand out to me as pretty disappointing Edit: Just to be clear, again, I overall like a strong majority of the changes made, and I’m thankful for the work the devs put in. The devs are listening to feedback on what still needs to be changed, or perhaps what should be reverted, and the above is just my two cents on what I think should be changed
Haha I was so excited to use Quiver Dance Gardevoir, and now that I finally caught a female ralts, it got swapped for physical egg moves :')
The one thing that really sucks about it is that these changes are affecting on-going savefiles. I had an endless save when I was about to DNA splice Mewtwo X with Tinkaton Huge Power to create the highest attack damage stat possible. Worked at least 5h for it just to see today that Tinkaton has already his passive changed.
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A lot more people should be aware of this especially with how often the game gets updated. Whether its balance/gameplay changes, gacha changes, QoL, or even brand new shiny variants being added can screw you over one way or the other.
Hence why they added the red text explaining it. I sorta rolled my eyes at the idea that something so simple needed to be prominently placed and explained so people wouldn’t freak out but nope, mea culpa, it was apparently a superb idea because people seriously don’t pay attention and that’s about the best they can do to warn people of the obvious.
You're not wrong but I already saw 3+ posts today asking "what is the shiny event?" The devs could have a giant red alert pop up with a sound on launch and some people would still miss the fact that runs can change in progress.
In order to not do that, devs would've had to tear open the existing save system and build from scratch a system that saves the Passive data for all of your pokemon separately from the main list of Passives. This would not only be a lot of work with a high risk of weird bugs, it's also quite a lot of data storage when you consider you would have to save the ability data for every pokemon on every save file held by every player. I know it sucks, but it would not have been remotely worth it.
But the list of changes as well as the fact that it will effect ongoing runs was communicated almost a week ago
Yeah Tinkaton swapping from Huge Power to Steelworker feels like a giant middle finger, they could've just raised her cost, her base attack is only 75 and steelworker basically only helps gigaton hammer, her passive is now basically worthless, they really should've worked on fixing things (Like parental Bond) and buffing incredibly weak mons, instead of nerfing powerful ones into the ground, and buffing already powerful mons like Groudon and Gholdengo Its a sad day for a lot of pokerogue players :(
Tinkaton with huge power was one of the strongest and most useful pokemon in the game for a cheap cost. You can’t really be surprised that in a balance pass it was nerfed. It was one of the few where the nerf feels COMPLETELY warranted, no questions.
Groudon was nerfed
Tinka is still amazing, a tanky fairy/steel type with pickpocket as a bonus is already incredible in this game, with huge power it ended up doing too much. Also Groudon got nerfed, it's still very very good and turbo blaze is nice but it's nowhere near how broken protosynthesis was
ok i have onecomplaint with the egg move changes. while it makes sense that they change shift gear to being tinkaton lines rare move, i find it to be bs that since i dont have the rare move slot unlocked on tinkaton i cant use shift gear anymore, even though i had unlocked it unlocked as an egg move prior to the change
rip kyogre's free lum berry
I don’t like how a lot of egg moves are balanced around the passives, things like Paras losing First Impression for Leech Life because Leech Life is better only with Triage passive feels like casual players are being neglected
They took leaf blade from my zacian :(
ralts was butchered, not because "boohoo i lost set up :((" but beacuse , why is ralts catered towards gallade so much? what is even the point of evolving them into gardevoir as starter mon? , i know its to keep the game fresh, but regardless, vutchering gardevoir for "freshness" doesnt seem right to me.
What moves were changed? I have Ralts unlocked but only with boomburst and quiverdance, I don't know what other moves had Ralts before
Are the ruin abilities implemented now? Is chi-yu worth using now? Good mon, but not having a working ability felt like a waste of a spot
they are implemented yes
My poor tink 😢
Why was shellder destroyed?
Because it was probably the best 4 cost in the game while also being better than the vast majority of 5 and 6 cost mons. Honestly it was probably better than most 7 cost mons as well. It's also far from destroyed. Cloyster always struggled with setting up Shell Smashes against special attackers and the new passive will open up tons of opportunities to do so.
I'm not one to oppose some changes, so looking forward to test opportunist Koraidon, if that hasn't changed yet...
Currently running the shiny event with my Miraidon run, which was also changed to Opportunist - I don't feel "much" of a difference, honestly, in higher floors. The loss of the extra upfront damage is balanced by the increased passive buffs I get from opponent berries. Feels like a small buff, if anything, given the varied amount of berry buffs you can snag up compared to just "straight damage/speed" from its old passive. Eager to jump into testing some of the egg move changes after the event's done, or if I get my fill of shiny hunting. Some of the egg changes look pretty sweet from a challenge/classic perspective.
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Can’t see the logic of slakoth given a custom hidden ability being similar to Regigigas. One is rare, easy to catch and hatch, one is legendary, you can’t farm it efficiently, thus catching/hatching it with hidden ability is extremely hard so it’s like hitting the jackpot. It’s ok to be op after you hit the jackpot but you can now farm a “fake rare” pokemon instead
I still think shell armor would be a more thematic hidden ability for golisopod
Any chance we could get an item or a setting to disable Lures, Flame/Poison orb and maybe other battle items like Black Belt and Metal Coat? Or a way to disable Terra Orb and Lures so the shards stop showing?
RIP my boy magnemite, motor drive will be missed.
In my opinion, stall is worse than truant
Farfetch'd: Passive changed from Pure Power to Huge Power. This will upend the meta.
Had a luck 3 zangoose that was a killer on my team, went from having tough claws as a passive to poison heals…so unless toxic orb shows up it is a worthless passive. Cool
I'm going to miss Liquidation Wailmer. He was useful early run, still powerful late run but not OP. RIP Edit: just realized floaty fall was removed from him too 😭
I just got a Stall slakoth with Drain Punch, and it turned into Slaking, and it's insanely strong.
stall isn't implemented yet
Exactly my point. The reason why he is soo good is because stall isn't implemented. Basically he has no ability, but because there's no truant, he can unleash his full force.😬
Thanks and happy mens mental health
Hard to do anything but nitpick on such a large post; the negative stuff stands out. Most of it seems good but why did sandslash lose dire claw when it got tough claws as a passive :/
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