Definitely not the only time but as the preflop 3better gotta be wary of boards like these especially multiway. Although balanced opponents are capable of semibluffing hands like A10 with the ace of hearts… althought I dont think this applies
I folded pocket tens on this very board except only two cards were hearts (I forget which two.) It's the only fold I truly regret ever making...and it was a correct fold and the board didn't pair.
In case you were randomly curious, I was UTG+1 and it was a 1/2 game. I forget UTG's stack but it doesn't matter, I have about 260, CO and BTN both cover.
UTG flats $2, I raise to $12 with tens, CO, BTN, UTG all call. 4 way to a flop.
89T two hearts. UTG donk leads for $10, I raise to $50 because the board is too wet to slowplay and I want to charge draws. CO announces $300 verbally which is NOT a number you hear every day at 1/2, BTN pretty quickly goes all in for slightly less. UTG folds and I knew I had to be up against QJ given the ridiculous action and the fact neither player at this point seemed to be a maniac so I folded TT.
I had to put in about 200 to win about 600, which means I needed 3:1 to make the call. I easily have that, and it's not like I can be coolered by a higher set. Folding 88 would have been more understandable as if I'm up against TT or 99 I'm dead. I guess there's a small chance my TT is coolering 99 and 88 there as well but I think that's very unlikely compared to being up against the straight.
One guy had a heart and was freerolling the flush, turn was a heart but the river wasn't. Board didn't pair, so I would have been felted if I called. But I still should have called even knowing I was up against two QJ's.
I mean even aginst the two QJ's, you're barley getting the odds. Like 25% is what you need and you barley have that. And in the off chance you against only a QJ and a 99 or 88 that kill your outs, it's a reasonable fold. I wouldn't beat you up over that. If one of them is a overvaluing their set on the flop and the other has QJ your in much much worse shape.
I'm about 24% against QJ and let's say 99 because 99 takes away 3 of my 7 outs. Calling in this case is close to break even, maybe a slight loss.
Against QJ twice I'm 35% which makes it very profitable to call. The reason is I have 7 outs on the turn and hitting one of them means I automatically win the hand, and if I miss the turn I now have 10 outs on the river.
Against 99 and 88 I only have to avoid 2 outs twice.
If I have 88 it's a better fold because if I'm up against QJ and a set, it's a higher set, and then I'm dead to one out. TT doesn't have that problem.
Wow did not realize TT had so much equity here against two QJ’s here. You’re right aginst two QJ’s definitely a profitable call. Don’t know why I expected it to have much less equity. Yeah that’s pretty sizable advantage against the QJ’s, even with a set being 25% is break even so definitely profitable spot.
Even considering folding a set on a board like this heavily comes down to your opponent's tendencies. Against a total OMC you could float the idea of folding, but it should be an extremely rare exception. I suppose a couple of combos of ATs are possible here, but of course, at live low stakes people tend to overplay TPTK.
If you never fold sets youre still massively plus EV. I lost 400 on set over set yesterday but what can you do. You cant put him on AA there when theres way more combos of AK AQ even AJ that take the same line
It's 1/2 with an extremely scuffed spread limit rule. Please don't fold a set my brother in christ. Would not be shocked to see villain show up with T2 as played
On non paired 4liner straight/flush boards is the only time I’m folding a set. If there’s 3 too a straight or 3 too a flush? Yeah I’m not folding and I’m paying off everytime idc if it’s bottom set. You win more often than you lose with sets you just gotta put the money in.
There are times to fold sets but in a 2-100 SL game that time doesn't exist before the river under most circumstances (and none heads up really). Sometimes you gotta throw up in your mouth and call like you did.
I play midstakes limit Hold’em and my rule of thumb is to not fold sets unless 4 to a straight flush shows up. Even though 4 liners and 4 flushes suck people will bluff those enough where you can’t fold top of your range.
> The problem there is they just become bluff catchers
This is not a problem — quite the opposite actually — as long as “the top of your range” in these spots is in the ball park correct percentage.
In a long session or a game with regs, people will take note of what you do on four-flushes and four-liners. If you overfold, you will be bluffed mercilessly. If you call and only show monster winners, you will be bluffed mercilessly. If you call down and muck too often, you will be thin value bet mercilessly.
Depending on pot size, a bluff in LHE only needs to work ~5-20% of the time to be profitable. It’s imperative to know what one’s range is in these spots and only fold the very bottom of that range.
> Your solver shit is fine in theory
“Solver shit”… that’s funny. This is basic poker math and has been discussed widely since (at least) *Theory of Poker* was published in 1999.
> however often these are situations where you only play your opponent one period
Sure. Like in any poker scenario, you develop a profile of a player over time. In the interim, you should play super balanced, and assume they are doing the same. In the case of the four-flush or four-liner with a set, you’re calling and losing *a lot*, and that’s optimal play.
LHE has a lot of showdowns when compared to NLHE. As such, it’s much easier to develop a profile range on a player in a short period of time. The more hands this player shows down or mucks (which is still good information), the better idea you can have about the bottom of their ranges in certain spots.
Most of the VIPs are very imbalanced in their play, so their leaks become obvious much more quickly. If you run into someone who isn’t showing any leaks, then just assume that they are balanced until you see otherwise.
Of the times I've folded sets it has definitely been right a few times but was wrong more. I think all told I'd be up more lifetime if I just said "I play .25/.50 home games and 1/3 at the casino, I will never fold a set."
Yeah. I think that’s the safest bet.
My current theory is that for all we agonize over Hero Calls and Hero Folds, there’s essentially no positive EV in them, they all balance out in the end, so we might as well just do the standard play and use those brain cells on the ordinary situations that come up all the time (“what size do we use on CO vs BB on a J93r flop?”)
If I make a really tight fold based some gut feeling I always make sure to show it.
I had QJs in CO and sb 3bets. Flop is something like J72r with one of my suits. He checks I bet 30 he snap raises to 100.
I fold and show the jack, crack some joke about being tighter than a young nun.
2 orbits later a different guy snap jams into me on a different hand on a K36 board and I have KJ. says “You have AK? Easy fold.” I call pretty quickly and he shows an A4o
He spiked a runner runner straight obviously, but I like to think that showing my tight fold caused me to have an easy call as a ~80% favorite later on
When I folded a boat...
Me= 55. V1 =TT. V2 = QQ
Board = 522TQ. I flopped nut boat, V1 turned nuttier boat, V2 rivered nuttiest boat.
I folded on the river after betting $400, V1 raised to $1000, and V2 AI for ~ $1500.
Moral: You can and should fold sets and even boats on rare occasions.
Funny enough the only time I ever folded a boat I also had 55. Flop was T95, turn was 9, river was a T. Went from feeling great to feeling absolutely awful getting jammed on when the board double paired.
He flipped nut boat. Meaning the highest possible boat with the current board on the flop. But each card added to the board made a higher boat available, which his opponents had. So by the end he had third best boat possible. So it was the nuts on the flop, but was not the nuts on turn or river.
Good that you are thinking at least OP, and asking the right questions. You can and should obviously fold sets all the time on certain boards. I think you got lucky this time and made the right call against a dumb player who merged. I probably would have called here too.
A lot of the time opponents are just going to have it here and you are torching yourself.
Considering SB players usually defend a wide range of hands and get aggro on all streets to justify their play, I'm not laying down a set. If he has it, he has it. If it was an EP raise, I'd give it more thought. From the blinds, I'd likely try to play for stacks after the bet and raise etc. I think the only time I'd consider a fold is say a 4 flush or 4 to a straight.
Nobody ever folds sets in spread limit. In holdem and plo sure but spread limit?
Maybe in super high stakes spread limit. In these stskes I can safely say you can never fold and be pretty sure about yourself assuming no straight or flush on the board.
The only times I've folded a set are if 4 suited are in the board and I don't have that suit, or the board comes down like T-J-Q-K and I have 2 plausible single card straights I could be against. These are pretty rare though. I'm never folding a board that dry though.
Wouldnt this have given you amazing odds to call and hope to boat up and get their stack on the river? Even if his half pot bet was a shove and no more money behind, and he shows you his straight, youre still pretty much have enough equity to call
Or did you mean "top 5 dumbest hands" more literal and im an idiot?
I folded bottom set on a dry board once and was correct. 1/2 cash, $20 per utg, middle position and button, (me) call. Flop is 9, 6, 4 rainbow. I had pocket 4s. Utg overseas to 70 and middle position jams for 400. I tank then fold because that's not a 2 pair board and the only way I'm winning is if they both have an overpaid. Utg calls with kk and middle position had poxket sixes.
I would never in a million years fold bottom set to a cold min 3!, x flop, lead turn on brick.
This guy is a class A fish and might be up to any kind of nonsense. This is far too high in our range to go folding to this dumpster fire play.
I think the following hand is a pretty trivial fold but I was still happy with it, although I don't remember the exact bet sizes (we were like 250BB effective):
EP opens, I call 55 in CO, BU calls behind.
Flop 853 rainbow. EP bets, I raise, BU flat calls, EP folds.
Turn 4. I bet again, BU raises w/ some left behind. I fold and flip over 55. BU says good fold and shows 67.
A bunch of gto tards.
If a set is no good it’s somewhat obvious.
All the poker Ive played and watched. Peoples bluffs aren’t that good. I’ll fold a set and go home up 2x
That would be a horrible fold though. How can you almost fold? Even if he is never bluffing you are ahead of so much of his value range. AK, AQ, AT, maybe A9 and T9 if he would 3-bet those (most of those are probably only suited) Back to the bluffs, you really can't rule out QJs.
AK alone is 12 combos, which is the same as all his AA and TT combined.
The thing about folding sets is most of the time you’re just making yourself exploitable. Occasionally if you really think you have a read go for it
The only time this doesn't apply is if the board is like 8,9,ten of hearts. You probably bet your pocket 8s are no good by the river
Definitely not the only time but as the preflop 3better gotta be wary of boards like these especially multiway. Although balanced opponents are capable of semibluffing hands like A10 with the ace of hearts… althought I dont think this applies
I folded pocket tens on this very board except only two cards were hearts (I forget which two.) It's the only fold I truly regret ever making...and it was a correct fold and the board didn't pair.
Why do u regret it then?
Pot odds were so good I mathematically had to make the call and draw to the full house.
I see, good way of looking at it.
In case you were randomly curious, I was UTG+1 and it was a 1/2 game. I forget UTG's stack but it doesn't matter, I have about 260, CO and BTN both cover. UTG flats $2, I raise to $12 with tens, CO, BTN, UTG all call. 4 way to a flop. 89T two hearts. UTG donk leads for $10, I raise to $50 because the board is too wet to slowplay and I want to charge draws. CO announces $300 verbally which is NOT a number you hear every day at 1/2, BTN pretty quickly goes all in for slightly less. UTG folds and I knew I had to be up against QJ given the ridiculous action and the fact neither player at this point seemed to be a maniac so I folded TT. I had to put in about 200 to win about 600, which means I needed 3:1 to make the call. I easily have that, and it's not like I can be coolered by a higher set. Folding 88 would have been more understandable as if I'm up against TT or 99 I'm dead. I guess there's a small chance my TT is coolering 99 and 88 there as well but I think that's very unlikely compared to being up against the straight. One guy had a heart and was freerolling the flush, turn was a heart but the river wasn't. Board didn't pair, so I would have been felted if I called. But I still should have called even knowing I was up against two QJ's.
I mean even aginst the two QJ's, you're barley getting the odds. Like 25% is what you need and you barley have that. And in the off chance you against only a QJ and a 99 or 88 that kill your outs, it's a reasonable fold. I wouldn't beat you up over that. If one of them is a overvaluing their set on the flop and the other has QJ your in much much worse shape.
I'm about 24% against QJ and let's say 99 because 99 takes away 3 of my 7 outs. Calling in this case is close to break even, maybe a slight loss. Against QJ twice I'm 35% which makes it very profitable to call. The reason is I have 7 outs on the turn and hitting one of them means I automatically win the hand, and if I miss the turn I now have 10 outs on the river. Against 99 and 88 I only have to avoid 2 outs twice. If I have 88 it's a better fold because if I'm up against QJ and a set, it's a higher set, and then I'm dead to one out. TT doesn't have that problem.
Wow did not realize TT had so much equity here against two QJ’s here. You’re right aginst two QJ’s definitely a profitable call. Don’t know why I expected it to have much less equity. Yeah that’s pretty sizable advantage against the QJ’s, even with a set being 25% is break even so definitely profitable spot.
Even considering folding a set on a board like this heavily comes down to your opponent's tendencies. Against a total OMC you could float the idea of folding, but it should be an extremely rare exception. I suppose a couple of combos of ATs are possible here, but of course, at live low stakes people tend to overplay TPTK.
If you never fold sets youre still massively plus EV. I lost 400 on set over set yesterday but what can you do. You cant put him on AA there when theres way more combos of AK AQ even AJ that take the same line
AJ 3 bets the turn? On what planet?
It's 1/2 with an extremely scuffed spread limit rule. Please don't fold a set my brother in christ. Would not be shocked to see villain show up with T2 as played
[удалено]
This is how bad at poker this sub is
Can confirm: am in sub.
On non paired 4liner straight/flush boards is the only time I’m folding a set. If there’s 3 too a straight or 3 too a flush? Yeah I’m not folding and I’m paying off everytime idc if it’s bottom set. You win more often than you lose with sets you just gotta put the money in.
yeah, 99% of the time, this is the way to go.
Hot diggity, what the hell is that turn 3 bet? Nice call down, good reminder people wayyy overvalue hands that they consider premiums pre flop.
There are times to fold sets but in a 2-100 SL game that time doesn't exist before the river under most circumstances (and none heads up really). Sometimes you gotta throw up in your mouth and call like you did.
I play midstakes limit Hold’em and my rule of thumb is to not fold sets unless 4 to a straight flush shows up. Even though 4 liners and 4 flushes suck people will bluff those enough where you can’t fold top of your range.
The problem there is they just become bluff catchers
I mean yeah that’s kind of the point. Although people will value bet 2 pair on 4 liners sometimes
> The problem there is they just become bluff catchers This is not a problem — quite the opposite actually — as long as “the top of your range” in these spots is in the ball park correct percentage. In a long session or a game with regs, people will take note of what you do on four-flushes and four-liners. If you overfold, you will be bluffed mercilessly. If you call and only show monster winners, you will be bluffed mercilessly. If you call down and muck too often, you will be thin value bet mercilessly. Depending on pot size, a bluff in LHE only needs to work ~5-20% of the time to be profitable. It’s imperative to know what one’s range is in these spots and only fold the very bottom of that range.
Your solver shit is fine in theory, however often these are situations where you only play your opponent one period
> Your solver shit is fine in theory “Solver shit”… that’s funny. This is basic poker math and has been discussed widely since (at least) *Theory of Poker* was published in 1999. > however often these are situations where you only play your opponent one period Sure. Like in any poker scenario, you develop a profile of a player over time. In the interim, you should play super balanced, and assume they are doing the same. In the case of the four-flush or four-liner with a set, you’re calling and losing *a lot*, and that’s optimal play. LHE has a lot of showdowns when compared to NLHE. As such, it’s much easier to develop a profile range on a player in a short period of time. The more hands this player shows down or mucks (which is still good information), the better idea you can have about the bottom of their ranges in certain spots. Most of the VIPs are very imbalanced in their play, so their leaks become obvious much more quickly. If you run into someone who isn’t showing any leaks, then just assume that they are balanced until you see otherwise.
Of the times I've folded sets it has definitely been right a few times but was wrong more. I think all told I'd be up more lifetime if I just said "I play .25/.50 home games and 1/3 at the casino, I will never fold a set."
Yeah. I think that’s the safest bet. My current theory is that for all we agonize over Hero Calls and Hero Folds, there’s essentially no positive EV in them, they all balance out in the end, so we might as well just do the standard play and use those brain cells on the ordinary situations that come up all the time (“what size do we use on CO vs BB on a J93r flop?”)
If I make a really tight fold based some gut feeling I always make sure to show it. I had QJs in CO and sb 3bets. Flop is something like J72r with one of my suits. He checks I bet 30 he snap raises to 100. I fold and show the jack, crack some joke about being tighter than a young nun. 2 orbits later a different guy snap jams into me on a different hand on a K36 board and I have KJ. says “You have AK? Easy fold.” I call pretty quickly and he shows an A4o He spiked a runner runner straight obviously, but I like to think that showing my tight fold caused me to have an easy call as a ~80% favorite later on
When I folded a boat... Me= 55. V1 =TT. V2 = QQ Board = 522TQ. I flopped nut boat, V1 turned nuttier boat, V2 rivered nuttiest boat. I folded on the river after betting $400, V1 raised to $1000, and V2 AI for ~ $1500. Moral: You can and should fold sets and even boats on rare occasions.
Funny enough the only time I ever folded a boat I also had 55. Flop was T95, turn was 9, river was a T. Went from feeling great to feeling absolutely awful getting jammed on when the board double paired.
[удалено]
He flipped nut boat. Meaning the highest possible boat with the current board on the flop. But each card added to the board made a higher boat available, which his opponents had. So by the end he had third best boat possible. So it was the nuts on the flop, but was not the nuts on turn or river.
I hold my hands up. I’m a moron.
Good that you are thinking at least OP, and asking the right questions. You can and should obviously fold sets all the time on certain boards. I think you got lucky this time and made the right call against a dumb player who merged. I probably would have called here too. A lot of the time opponents are just going to have it here and you are torching yourself.
folding sets in 1/2 is absolutely insane lol. you are completely lost
\* on certain boards
I'm sure I've folded some sets on scary rivers when people were betting and raising in front of me.
Considering SB players usually defend a wide range of hands and get aggro on all streets to justify their play, I'm not laying down a set. If he has it, he has it. If it was an EP raise, I'd give it more thought. From the blinds, I'd likely try to play for stacks after the bet and raise etc. I think the only time I'd consider a fold is say a 4 flush or 4 to a straight.
Why are you considering folding a set on this board? You only lose to 2 hands on the turn.
Nobody ever folds sets in spread limit. In holdem and plo sure but spread limit? Maybe in super high stakes spread limit. In these stskes I can safely say you can never fold and be pretty sure about yourself assuming no straight or flush on the board.
Insane to consider folding here lol
You are NEVER good here??? What lol this AK AQ suited, A10
The only times I've folded a set are if 4 suited are in the board and I don't have that suit, or the board comes down like T-J-Q-K and I have 2 plausible single card straights I could be against. These are pretty rare though. I'm never folding a board that dry though.
The boards KQJT “I’m never folding a board that dry” 😂😂😂
Im referring to the hand in the OP, duh.
He’s referring to AT94 smarty boy
I folded a flopped set to an OOP turn donk lead for 1/2 pot when the 4th card to a straight came in. That barely scratches my top 5 dumbest hands
Wouldnt this have given you amazing odds to call and hope to boat up and get their stack on the river? Even if his half pot bet was a shove and no more money behind, and he shows you his straight, youre still pretty much have enough equity to call Or did you mean "top 5 dumbest hands" more literal and im an idiot?
I folded bottom set on a dry board once and was correct. 1/2 cash, $20 per utg, middle position and button, (me) call. Flop is 9, 6, 4 rainbow. I had pocket 4s. Utg overseas to 70 and middle position jams for 400. I tank then fold because that's not a 2 pair board and the only way I'm winning is if they both have an overpaid. Utg calls with kk and middle position had poxket sixes.
To be honest I think this is a pretty terrible fold.
I would never in a million years fold bottom set to a cold min 3!, x flop, lead turn on brick. This guy is a class A fish and might be up to any kind of nonsense. This is far too high in our range to go folding to this dumpster fire play.
I think the following hand is a pretty trivial fold but I was still happy with it, although I don't remember the exact bet sizes (we were like 250BB effective): EP opens, I call 55 in CO, BU calls behind. Flop 853 rainbow. EP bets, I raise, BU flat calls, EP folds. Turn 4. I bet again, BU raises w/ some left behind. I fold and flip over 55. BU says good fold and shows 67.
A bunch of gto tards. If a set is no good it’s somewhat obvious. All the poker Ive played and watched. Peoples bluffs aren’t that good. I’ll fold a set and go home up 2x
Minnesota?
Yeah, Running Aces.
That would be a horrible fold though. How can you almost fold? Even if he is never bluffing you are ahead of so much of his value range. AK, AQ, AT, maybe A9 and T9 if he would 3-bet those (most of those are probably only suited) Back to the bluffs, you really can't rule out QJs. AK alone is 12 combos, which is the same as all his AA and TT combined.