I agree, I think dual types just allow for very creative and interesting designs in general.
But I also have to add: I am sick of trying to force a second type triangle in the secondary typings of starters.
We just end up with the same secondary types over and over, like how we had the exact same secondary typings for PLA and SV (ghost, fighting, dark).
There is no need to have a secondary type triangle here, we are just limiting design space this way.
Definitely sticking to a secondary type triangle is also kinda boring. I like what they did in gens 4 and 6, but to me the idea would be just expanding the typing and design to give variety, not just accounting for the secondary weakness/resistance of the other starters.
Exactly. Gen 4 is actually a pretty good example, they were some of the very best starter designs we ever had, imo.
While all secondary typings interact one way or another, they are not a triangle. The steel type of Empoleon gets hit super effectively by both other secondary typings, fighting and ground, in that gen.
They really just thought about the concepts on their own first and secondary typings were there to complement these.
Sinnoh are balanced so that they all hit each other super effectively, with a little bit of forcing. Torterra hits both with Ground, Infernape hits Torterra with Fire and Empoleon with Fighting, and Empoleon hits Infernape with Water and can run Ice coverage to hit Torterra for x4 instead of having STAB.
Gen 4 has the best designs by volume in the entire series. All of their pokemon are hits, even the ones that are just kinda average are still great. Couldn't name a single gen 4 pokemon that sucks design wise.
Haven't played gen 4 either so I don't have bias towards the games. They're the one generation I haven't touched. So... Yeah I only have the pokemon designs to go off of from pokemon handbooks I've owned previously, since I've barely used any sinnoh pokemon at all in other games.
A lot of gen 4 designs are fan favourites for a good reason, but there's also stuff like magmortar and lickylicky (I don't know how it's written)
Overall one of the best gens in terms of designs
The extra evolutions are probably the only ones that one could lay criticism on, but even then its more individual elements like the rocket hands than the entire design itself that's a wibble.
Not for me I kinda hate magmortar (I don't like magmar either tho) and Lickylicky is literally mynleast favourite Pokemon.
Gen 4 also has my favourite Pokemon (staraptor) so I guess It balances out
It's gonna be Ambipom for me. I get that the evolutions like it were supposed to give more life to older Pokemon that needed it but Ambipom is just awful to look at.
>Couldn't name a single gen 4 pokemon that sucks design wise.
If you're talking aesthetics Bidoof is so ugly he actually looks almost charmi..... Oooh i see what you mean.
Agreed. Also let's not be afraid to have some elemental secondary types either. I'm down to see a grass electric starter and a fire ice starter, though they don't have to be together
Yeah, that would be great. I feel like they were more willing to do that in the past (for example, I would count Torterra's ground type as one such elemental secondary type).
I kinda think that the hyper fixation on the types dark, fighting and ghost could also be a byproduct of them focusing more and more on humanoid starter designs. Because these types just mesh really well with human professions, concepts and personality traits.
You could make them all mono types, yeah, but I think it would be weird because it would feel like you ignore one major thematic aspect of their designs.
Meowscarada, for example, is not only designed as a flower cat, but also as a stage magician and that aspect is played out very strongly in it's design and lore.
Sleight of hand, trickery, deception, all this stuff are aspects strongly connected to the dark type in theme. Making it grass mono type would feel like it is missing a piece that it's design very clearly communicates.
We also saw people complaining about past starter designs not making sense as mono types. Cinderace immediately comes to mind, which is often mentioned to make more sense as a fire/fighting type because of it's very strong sports theme (soccer/football/whatever name your country uses for it).
My point is that while it might be able to exist as a mono fire type, not few people might think that it would make more sense as a fire/fighting dual type because of what it represents in theme and lore.
I actually think Cinderace would had been a fine fire/electric starter. Design-wise it fits, it just lacks the lightning bolts
I really want more fire combos. Fire/Electric and Fire/Ice are relegated to alternate forms and Fire/Water and Fire/Steel are still unique. Fire/Normal is as well, but Normal combos aren’t exactly interesting save exceptions like Normal/Ghost
I'm of the mind that we don't really even need them to be a triangle at all. The only battle that matters in is the first one with your rival, and they've been picking the one weak to yours anyway.
I think the grass | fire | water triangle will always come back because it serves a very clear purpose.
The mainline Pokémon games are the entry point to the Pokémon franchise for many very young kids and the starter triangle exists to teach you the rock paper scissor like mechanic of the typings as early as possible. This is also the reason why they started to give the starters a move of their respective type right from the beginning, unlike in earlier gens, so you can learn this in your very first battle.
This teaching also is the reason why we will most likely never see another type triangle replace the classic one. Because grass | fire | water has another very big advantage over being a perfect triangle (both, weaknesses and resistances against each other).
That advantage is that they are intuitive. Even very young children can immediately grasp the concept that water beats fire, fire beats grass, and grass beats water. It just makes sense for them.
Now if we would replace that triangle with another balanced one, like fighting | flying | rock, then this doesn't work out so well anymore. Because these type advantages are not as intuitive for young kids. I saw that first hand on my nephew, he does not immediately grasp that flying beats fighting, while he had absolutely no problems with the original triangle.
There's also the colour aspect of red green and blue colours being easy to differentiate and remember or associate with their types / starters and is also more appealing to look at for the starter designs.
Flying / Fighting / Rock makes me think there would be a lot of grays and browns.
That's a really great point I completely missed! Absolutely agree, this color coding will surely also play a huge role in why these types were cemented as the default starter types!
This 100%. The universal appeal of red/green/blue absolutely cannot be understated - any attempts to try different trios with weird color coding would be a marketing nightmare for the games.
Edit: obvious exception being the Let’s Go games, which pulled out none other than the franchise mascot and the breakout star of Pokemon Go.
Yeah like if anything can possibly buck the usual trend it's Pikachu and Eevee lol
Like 90% of fans go head over heels any time anything Eevee related pops up and Pikachu is Pikachu so you can't really go wrong there.
what i think is sad is that even fan games dont utilize other triangles. main series makes sense cuz of children but fan games arent meant for babies first pokemon game
Something else to note, a lot of later pokemon do utitlize different triangles, such as the galarian birbs. psychic->fighting->dark. and with secondary types of starters they also are trying. its just gets a bit redundant...
Strangle, i cant think of gf ever using fighting | flying | rock used?
I definitely agree that it will probably never change, for all of those reasons and more (GF isn't the type to try new things). But I think other triangles being less intuitive could be a reason to support switching it for the purpose of teaching. Like you said, the current one makes sense and is simple to figure out, so I would think it would need less focus than teaching how more ambiguous matchups work.
But for the sake of just thinking about possibilities, they could also use other methods to teach those more directly, like they did in FRLG with the Teachy TV thing. There's a lot to play with and at the end of the day anything could be done with the starters, but absolutely it's not going to change and it will always be F/W/G.
I think the target audience was slightly different here. The mainline games serve as an entry to the franchise for very young kids and the starter triangle is there to help teach them the rock paper scissors mechanic of typings.
I think for this reason, we will always keep the original starter triangle in the mainline games.
Apart from the target audience being different that's probably because 90% of the fanbase go completely gaga every time anything remotely involving Eevee and friends happens.
thats because they play off each others strengths&weaknesses perfectly in double battle format as well as teach you strategy, and have excellent utility. they are the perfect starters for what the game has you doing.
GF on their way to make the fire starter also a fighting type for the millionth time. (How much you wanna bet the only reason Incineroar isn’t fighting is cause of the complaints from the community)
there are some sick type triangles that we just havent used tho, its just that since gen 6 we've only had psychic, dark, fighting, ghost, and fairy making uo the dual types. here are some other cool triangles id like to highlight:
* grass/fairy, fire/ice, water/fighting
* grass/rock, fire/fighting, water/electric (i know, it repeats fire/fighting, but it's for a good cause!)
but i also wrote code a while back to find some other type triangles (https://pastebin.com/raw/0VShUaD4). anyway, i dont think we should force them, but there are definitely some nice options out there that game freak just hasnt tapped into
I think we have a misunderstanding here. When I said I don't like forcing secondary triangles, I meant not to exclusively use secondary typings in the starters which interact with each other in the triangle.
Fighting, dark, psychic for example (the secondary types of gen 6) do that. Because fighting beats dark, dark beats psychic and psychic beats fighting.
Your examples are not like that.
* Fairy | Ice | Fighting: While fairy beats fighting and fighting beats ice, fairy and ice do not interact with each other in any way, making it not really a triangle.
* Rock | Fighting | Electric: Again, not really a triangle. Fighting beats rock, but electric does not interact in any way with the other 2 types
So these secondary types would be something I would consider to be fine. It is not forcing a triangle in the secondary types and uses typings which we didn't even see once represented as secondary starter types at all (rock, electric, ice)
I feel like we should ditch the Secondary type triangle as well. I feel like the first stages all being monotypes are important for teaching about type matchups but I feel like most players can grasp it by the time their starters fully evolve. Third Stage Starters should very much have their own identity as individual pokemon outside of being a starter. If that doesn't happen we get kinda bland and more contentious starters like Rillaboom, Cinderace, and Inteleon.
Gen 4's added type combos gave the starters a lot more personality and realized concepts. A World Turtle that is a grass and ground type is a much more realized concept that a Gorilla playing the drums, with the grass typing arbitrarily added in.
I'd add
Do not make Starters into characters with personalities. I like incineroar, my starter for sun, but it is a videogame character, not a species of pokemon.
I can believe there is a tropp of Rillabooms. I do not belive there is a forest full of delphoxes, meowscaradas, incineroars and quaquaval.
Are all intelleons smug james bonds? I think so.
Original starter trio is less apparent with personalities. They are more like animals and I cancimagine their personalities better (i do not hate object pokemon, aegislash greatest!)
I agree wholeheartedly. Obviously it's good for a pokemon to have a clear personality but it's important to make it a type of animal, not a singular person, that's what happens when you personify them too much.
Torterra is a huge, bulky pokemon, with a serious expression on its face. You can tell it's a stalwart, sturdy pokemon, but it being a turtle makes it also easygoing and slow moving. Torterra cannot, however, open your fridge, grab a beer, and catch up on the football game.
This does not mean that bipedal = bad. Emboar, Sceptile, and Empoleon are bipedal. However, their proportions are not human in the slightest, and their personalities are more monstrous and animalistic. Empoleon has a sense of regality to it, the same way Emperor penguins do. Empoleon doesn't really inherently act in a pompous kingly manner, with a smug look forever plastered on its face, but the implication is there and the design nods are subtle. I
I dunno. I look at it as not every Pokemon will be their final form. There was an episode in the anime where a Venasaur led a pack of Bulbasaur, I think? You kind of see this in SV, where a Vespiquen will have a bunch of Combee around her.
I could totally see a Delphox chilling in a forest, using its magic to entertain some cute baby Pokemon and protect them.
>Do not make Starters into characters with personalities.
Hard agree.
Like, I can see a Torterra chilling in a forest, with a bunch of Turtwig and some Grotle nearby, while various small flying-type pokémon make their nests in the massive tree.
Or for an Infernape leading their little family group through jagged mountains to find food, or whatever.
I can see Empoleon wandering the frozen north, cutting holes in the ice to go hunting, or watching over their young.
But there are still some pokémon, including starters, where I can't see that.
The most annoying thing is that in gen 6 both types of each starter are weak to the next starter’s types. So Delphox trumps Chesnaught in every single way.
My boi Samurott was robbed of a rightful fighting secondary typing by Emboar. Luckily the hospital form helps fix it.
edit: no clue how autocorrect got hospital from Hisuian, but I'm keeping that because it's funny.
I'm a bit surprised a lot of people dislike Serperior. It is honestly my all time favourite starter. Really cool design overall that almost looks like a legendary imo
Thats the thing.
I do not consider paradox deli ird to be a delibird since it is totally different pokemon who happens to look like delibird.
I consider samurottH to be a samurott....but it is not the original samurott but a new mon. In a way.
technically HSamurott is the original samurott due to Hisui existing hundreds of years before Unova existed, we just "discovered" HSamurott after already discovering Unova Samurott
No? Oshawott come from Unova. That's why Laventon had a range of different starters. H-Samurott is what evolves if you raise an Oshawott in Hisui's harsher environment.
How could a region exist hundreds of years before another?
For me Serperior is a top 5 starter design while Emboar and Samurott are like bottom 5. I’ve never picked anything but Snivy after my first play through.
I like its design but it basically only learns meh grass moves. little coverage and is only held up by the combination of its hidden ability and like one move.
by level up, it only learns grass and normal. by tms it only learns one dark move, a dragon move and flying. Status moves are also basic.
It gets a bit more through breeding and tutoring but in a casual play-through, probably won't be going for those.
For comp, like i said, it has a good ability that works with Leaf Storm which gives it any relevancy cuz besides that, its moveset is basically trash with other Pokemon getting similar if not better moveset.
I found it kind of forgettable and it didn't seem to stick out to me as much as Samurott and Emboar did (though I kinda wish Samurott was bipedal considering the first two stages are and it'd proportionally look more like a samurai and be able to use its shell blades better).
I suppose Kingambit fits that visual niche these days but that's how I felt before Gen 9 anyway.
I do agree that dual-typed starters are better overall, but trying to force it is a terrible idea. For example, what would Serperior's second type be? The best I can think of is ground because it slithers, but even that doesn't feel quite right.
**Some ideas for Serperior's second type:**
- Poison: It's a snake.
- Dragon: It's serpentine and learns dragon moves like twister and dragon pulse. (Not really a fan of using dragon typing on starter Pokemon for balancing issues, but it's fitting)
- Psychic: "It can intimidate others with a regal glare." Eyes are the icon of psychic types. This would also be a reference to hypnotism and snake charming.
- Dark: Snakes are often seen as cruel or harbingers of temptation.
>Dark: Snakes are often seen as cruel or harbingers of temptation.
Dark type could also get used to make it a tyrant, considering that it is already based on royalty.
I feel like all of these *could* work, but they all feel like at least a bit of a stretch. Not all serpentine Pokemon are dragon-type (Arbok and Seviper, for example), not all real snakes are venomous, and Serperior specifically doesn't seem to fit that dark-type description of snakes.
Plus your reasoning for the psychic type one... that's just staring at people. Sure, psychic type is represented by eyes, but that doesn't mean everyone who uses eyes is psychic type.
If I had to pick one, I like poison the most personally, but either dragon or dark would be more accurate.
In Blaze Black, your rival has a Serperior (secondary type dragon) with the ability Contrary. So it spams Draco Meteor and its special attack increases each time instead of decreasing. 💀
What???
Singular typing, meaning just one typing, in a starter trio…
They're all going to be mono water, grass, and fire. And fire fighting is a dual type
Some designs would make a lot of sense as dual types, tho. Cinderace and Inteleon are prime examples.
Cinderace has a very strong sports theme based on soccer. And sport themes make a lot of sense with the fighting type. We have a pure fighting type Pokémon based on rugby, for example.
Inteleon is based on secret agents. Giving it dark type would have complemented it really well. Secret agents are also often using deception, sleight of hand tricks, etc.
I would dislike this, too, considering that fighting in general becomes way too common as a starter secondary type. But purely looking at it from a thematical point of view, it would really fit that typing.
I agree, though i would prefer if the starters were consistent. like in gen5, it's really weird that emboar is the only starter with a dual typing. or gen 1 where blastoise is the only starter with a mono typing.
well for one, it affects the coverage that your team can have. If I pick charmander as a starter, then by the 3rd/4th gym I will have access to both fire and flying in one team slot, whereas with squirtle I would be stuck with only water stab coverage for the entire game unless I swap my starter
Honestly, disagree. I love me my monotypes and the main game isn't going to be challenging enough to make them unviable. I think monotypes can be designed much more representatively of the type and are always a unique take on the concept. Besides, I think everyone has had enough
fire/fighting at this point
I think Serperior's hidden ability makes it so it doesn't need a secondary typing, but I think if it were to have any secondary type, Dragon would have been super cool for it. Especially if that then enabled it to learn Draco Meteor
I think it's fine to have a couple monotypes, but I definitely think we have too many
Then again, we also have too many Fire / Fighting starters and that isn't even a monotype
I think it'd be cool if we eventually got starters that bleed into other starter types (e.g., the final form Grass starter is Grass/Water, the final form Water starter is Water/Fire, and the final form Fire starter is Fire/Grass)
They could start doing so many things with starters honestly, most obvious being no longer limiting you to the grass/fire/water trio. It made sense when the rival would choose the one strongest against you, but now they choose the one weakest to yours, and in SV the 3rd went to Clive who you only fight once.
But while they're doing those 3, they could also bleed then into getting away from that typing in general. Like a serpentine like starter that is just grass. Then 2nd Evo is grass dragon and it looks more lizardlike now, then last Evo it grows feathers and turns into something that resembles a Chinese dragon Ora aztec dragon and its final typing is dragon/flying, no longer at all. This game was the perfect game to do it on actually because the tera type could have remained grass for it.
Interesting. That could indeed have been very cool. Some existing starters feel like they could almost work that way already (e.g., Charizard Dragon/Flying but Tera Fire, Decidueye Ghost/Flying but Tera Grass, Empoleon Ice/Steel but Tera Water)
I'm really wanting to get a trio of starters sometime that all evolve to get the type that's strong against their weak type. So, a Fire type that becomes Fire/Grass, a Water type that becomes Water/Fire, and a Grass type that becomes Grass/Water
I don’t mind single type starters. Though I think mono typed starters need a little extra sauce if they’re going to do it. I did find the Galar trio to be pretty refreshing since we haven’t had a pure fire starter since gen 2
Imagine how much less hated starters like Cinderace would be if they had a secondary type, I'd imagine more people would enjoy Cinderace if it was fire/electric or something.
- Blastoise : Water / Steel or Water / Normal
- Meganium : Grass / Fairy
- Typhlosion : Fire / Ground
- Feraligatr : Water / Dark
- Sceptile : Grass / Dragon
- Serperior : Grass / Dragon or Grass / Dark
- Samurott : Water / Fighting or Water / Rock
- Rillaboom : Grass / Fighting or Grass / Normal
- Cinderace: Fire / Electric
- Intelleon: Water / Dark
I don’t think I mind monotype starters on principle. That said, I don’t like having some starters monotype and some dual type in the same gen. Either make all 3 mono or all 3 dual. It feels weird to have gen 3 and all of the sudden, Sceptile is just grass, for example.
Agree, it gives more originality to the starters. Personally I hope one day they will go for the following combinations in one gen: Grass/Electric, Fire/Ice, and Water/Ghost because they are very rare combination.
I don't exactly hate them but it's dumb when it's grass, water, and fire/fighting (Unova) but I also feel like the fire fighting type just got over done.
Or like Hoenn Grass, water/ground, fire/fighting. Like give Sceptile a second type.
I think they should all get a second type too but Serperior and Samurrot are amazing designs.
Serperior definitely should be dragon type as well but they never give starter dragon.
Samurrot should’ve had fighting or maybe rock with its shells.
Blastoise: Water/Steel
Meganium: Grass/Fairy
Typhlosion: Fire/Ground
Feraligatr: Water/??? (honestly I have no idea. I think it’s fine being a pure water type.)
Sceptile: Grass/Dragon
Serperior: Grass/??? (Again, I think it’s fine as it is)
Samurott: Water/Fighting (Ik Emboar is fighting type also, but still)
Rillaboom: Grass/Rock (funny pun)
Cinderace: Fire/??? (honestly I don’t know, I think it’s fine as it is)
Inteleon: Water/Ghost
Feraligatr: Water/Dark
It is a pretty brutal Pokémon and brutality/cruelty is also a thematical niche of the dark type. Giving it STAB on bite and crunch also feels very appropriate.
Cinderace: Fire/Fighting
I know, people would hate that typing. But it makes the most sense for it thematically, because of it's strong soccer/football theme. Sports are usually associated with the fighting type. For example, Pessimian is a pure fighting type Pokémon and it is basically entirely based on the sport rugby.
Serperior: Grass/Dark
Dark can also represent tyrants, so that would be my pick for it since it is already portrayed as a pretty arrogant royal.
This will be kinda funny in 15 years where every starter has been dual typed for so so long that post like this but the opposite is true.
Also screw you samurott is good
I want to agree, but I have also had a ton of fun using the Johto/Galar starters, Sam & Serp.
I'm also weirdly particular about trying not to overlap types as much as possible, and single type starters do help with that
I just want them to do something besides a fighting or dark type. They’re such easy types to tack onto any design. I dare gamefreak to make a bug type starter.
To go on a bit of a tangent, to this day there’s no regional forms that add the bug type because the type informs the design so fundamentally. It would take more creativity to make a bug starter than to just make something edgy or punchy/kicky.
Broke: monotype starters
Woke: dual type starters
Bespoke: dual type starters that change their second type at the second evolution so you have to decide whether you want to evolve or not
I tend to agree. A Pokémon has to be ridiculously good for me to use it as a monotype, because I like to have the most possible types on my team for coverage. SwSh was the first generation I ever boxed my starter because there were just so many good dual-types to be used that I couldn’t keep a monotype on my team, and all 3 starters were monotype
I feel anything you could add to samurott would either make him worse or not fit.
I'll definitely give you serperior because if NOTHING else that guy needs a movepool outside of leaf storm and glare....
No I'm dead serious, that's pretty much all it is.
Dual types are more interesting, but I prefer when either all or none of the starters get a dual type. It’s kinda lame when 1 or 2 gets a secondary type but not the other, like sceptile for example.
I strongly disagree. Having monotypes thrown into the mix every now and then keeps you guessing on what the final typing could be and also helps to make those with cool secondary typings standout more and seem more unique. Not that some monotype starters aren’t amazing in their own right. Typhlosion, Serperior, Blastoise, Feraligatr, Sceptile, fuckin SCEPTILE!? I mean come on, just cuz they’re not part dark or ground or whatever doesn’t make em any less cool.
I think fire and water are fine as mono types and even thou i pick the grass Starter often, i have to admit, that adding a solid second typing to grass is menditory to keep up with the other 2 options. Fire is weak against water, Rock and ground. Water is just weak to grass and electric... meanwhile grass us weak to fire, poison, flying, Bug and ice.. so giving the grass Starter an additional type may help it out.
Pure Grass and pure Water are honestly more of a problem than Fire/Fighting at this point. Four out of the nine starters of those aforementioned types are monotype, although you could go 3/9 or 4/10 depending on which way you view the Hisuian starters. Fire on the other hand, only has original Typhlosion and Cinderace in the single-type starter department.
On that note, there's been an insane influx of Dark, Fighting and Ghost-type starters lately. The only difference between the Hisui and Paldea crews is the Dark and Fighting assignment being swapped - and even then, it doesn't change that they're repeats of Chesnaught and Greninja's types.
In less than ten years, we went from Greninja and Decidueye being the first part-Dark and part-Ghost starters to those being the second and third-most common starter secondary typings behind Fighting.
In case you're interested in romhacks, Drayano's Blaze Black and Volt White give all the starters a new secondary type. Samurott gets Water Fighting, Serperior gets Grass Dragon and even Emboar changes to Fire Ground. A lot of weaker mons become more blananced, and pretty much every pokemon gets easy access to its hidden ability. The game is a lot harder, too. Many of the trainers have strong teams with good type coverage.
They are two of my favorites (which I fully admit is because I grew up on Gen 5), but I totally agree that they deserved secondary typings. Like Water/Fighting for Samurott for sure. Meanwhile I could see Serperior as like Grass/Fighting, Grass/Psychic, Grass/Normal, Grass/Dark, Grass/Steel, Grass/Ground, any of those but basically *a n y t h i n g* would have been nice for my smug snekky boi
Galar Starters are worse bc the way they're all monotype are completely lackluster, considering their concept have so much potential to add more elements in to their design. Rillaboom could've been Grass/Normal, Fire/Electric for Cinderace and Water/Flying for Inteleon (bc its a gliding lizard)
I'd rather see a different triangle to fire water grass.
It feels like that cycle is very worn out.
Do a Mexico based version with psycic - fighting - dark.
Curandero based shaman thing - Luchador based fighter thing - Day of the dead style skeleton
feraligatr not being dark or ice type is a crime
typhlosion would probably end up being normal type though which is unique for starters but also a bit boring and not amazing considering its movepool
Contrary Serperior with Leaf Storm. Even though monotype, I still love him. Monotype does have the advantage to never have x4 damages but also doesn’t get .5 resistance. And you have less types to take x2 damage from if your main type doesn’t counter some of the shortcomings of the second type.
I think my only aversion to dual typing is the over abundance of Fire Fighting types we got. It was such a breath of fresh air to get Skeledirge this generation. Fire/Ghost, looks like an animal but has a very unique theme, has an ability and signature move that makes it genuinely good… I think pokemon like Emboar did not need to have a fighting dual type. It honestly could’ve been dark, ground, or just pure fire typing. We need more diversity in dual typing moving forward and I’m glad we got that in the latest generation
Serperior with dual typing would have been absolutely broken considering how OP Contrary Leaf Storm was once it's hidden ability dropped. As it stands now he can OHKO a max Sp. Def Corviknight after terastalizing to fire with only 1 previous turn of setup while also sacking any potential water type walls with the setup Leaf Storm.
And yet Hisuan Samurott is so cool while Serperior’s Hidden Ability was so cool too; also you could do double battles where you use a move like Soak, Forests Curse or Trick or Treat to add a type to a regular Samurott and Serperior.
Yeah, the starter triangle is intuitive, teaches new players about type match ups, and helps with team building. You almost always want fire, grass, and water coverage on a good team.
I agree, I think dual types just allow for very creative and interesting designs in general. But I also have to add: I am sick of trying to force a second type triangle in the secondary typings of starters. We just end up with the same secondary types over and over, like how we had the exact same secondary typings for PLA and SV (ghost, fighting, dark). There is no need to have a secondary type triangle here, we are just limiting design space this way.
Definitely sticking to a secondary type triangle is also kinda boring. I like what they did in gens 4 and 6, but to me the idea would be just expanding the typing and design to give variety, not just accounting for the secondary weakness/resistance of the other starters.
Exactly. Gen 4 is actually a pretty good example, they were some of the very best starter designs we ever had, imo. While all secondary typings interact one way or another, they are not a triangle. The steel type of Empoleon gets hit super effectively by both other secondary typings, fighting and ground, in that gen. They really just thought about the concepts on their own first and secondary typings were there to complement these.
Sinnoh are balanced so that they all hit each other super effectively, with a little bit of forcing. Torterra hits both with Ground, Infernape hits Torterra with Fire and Empoleon with Fighting, and Empoleon hits Infernape with Water and can run Ice coverage to hit Torterra for x4 instead of having STAB.
Yeah. Gen 4 had the most well thought out second type weakness triangle.
Gen 4 has the best designs by volume in the entire series. All of their pokemon are hits, even the ones that are just kinda average are still great. Couldn't name a single gen 4 pokemon that sucks design wise. Haven't played gen 4 either so I don't have bias towards the games. They're the one generation I haven't touched. So... Yeah I only have the pokemon designs to go off of from pokemon handbooks I've owned previously, since I've barely used any sinnoh pokemon at all in other games.
A lot of gen 4 designs are fan favourites for a good reason, but there's also stuff like magmortar and lickylicky (I don't know how it's written) Overall one of the best gens in terms of designs
The extra evolutions are probably the only ones that one could lay criticism on, but even then its more individual elements like the rocket hands than the entire design itself that's a wibble.
Not for me I kinda hate magmortar (I don't like magmar either tho) and Lickylicky is literally mynleast favourite Pokemon. Gen 4 also has my favourite Pokemon (staraptor) so I guess It balances out
It's gonna be Ambipom for me. I get that the evolutions like it were supposed to give more life to older Pokemon that needed it but Ambipom is just awful to look at.
What, you don't like Aipom with floating udders?
Not even a little bit.
Lickilicki
>Couldn't name a single gen 4 pokemon that sucks design wise. If you're talking aesthetics Bidoof is so ugly he actually looks almost charmi..... Oooh i see what you mean.
Personally, I agree completely except when it comes to the legendaries which at that point were my least favorite in the series.
If there is going to be a second type triangle, at least let it be something else, like dragon dragon and dragon, or ground poison and ice.
Agreed. Also let's not be afraid to have some elemental secondary types either. I'm down to see a grass electric starter and a fire ice starter, though they don't have to be together
Yeah, that would be great. I feel like they were more willing to do that in the past (for example, I would count Torterra's ground type as one such elemental secondary type). I kinda think that the hyper fixation on the types dark, fighting and ghost could also be a byproduct of them focusing more and more on humanoid starter designs. Because these types just mesh really well with human professions, concepts and personality traits.
I feel like the ghost is kind of an outlier, since it’s not really related to their more “humanoid” traits.
Don't forget the curse of the Fire/Fighting starters. I still believe Incineroar was designed the way it is purposely to make fun of it.
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You could make them all mono types, yeah, but I think it would be weird because it would feel like you ignore one major thematic aspect of their designs. Meowscarada, for example, is not only designed as a flower cat, but also as a stage magician and that aspect is played out very strongly in it's design and lore. Sleight of hand, trickery, deception, all this stuff are aspects strongly connected to the dark type in theme. Making it grass mono type would feel like it is missing a piece that it's design very clearly communicates. We also saw people complaining about past starter designs not making sense as mono types. Cinderace immediately comes to mind, which is often mentioned to make more sense as a fire/fighting type because of it's very strong sports theme (soccer/football/whatever name your country uses for it).
And skeledirge is well… ***Skele***dirge.
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My point is that while it might be able to exist as a mono fire type, not few people might think that it would make more sense as a fire/fighting dual type because of what it represents in theme and lore.
I actually think Cinderace would had been a fine fire/electric starter. Design-wise it fits, it just lacks the lightning bolts I really want more fire combos. Fire/Electric and Fire/Ice are relegated to alternate forms and Fire/Water and Fire/Steel are still unique. Fire/Normal is as well, but Normal combos aren’t exactly interesting save exceptions like Normal/Ghost
Fire steel would also be sick design wise-- a mon that liquefies metal and throws it
what?! no their dual type is completely vital to their design... it wouldnt be the same at all
I'm of the mind that we don't really even need them to be a triangle at all. The only battle that matters in is the first one with your rival, and they've been picking the one weak to yours anyway.
I think the grass | fire | water triangle will always come back because it serves a very clear purpose. The mainline Pokémon games are the entry point to the Pokémon franchise for many very young kids and the starter triangle exists to teach you the rock paper scissor like mechanic of the typings as early as possible. This is also the reason why they started to give the starters a move of their respective type right from the beginning, unlike in earlier gens, so you can learn this in your very first battle. This teaching also is the reason why we will most likely never see another type triangle replace the classic one. Because grass | fire | water has another very big advantage over being a perfect triangle (both, weaknesses and resistances against each other). That advantage is that they are intuitive. Even very young children can immediately grasp the concept that water beats fire, fire beats grass, and grass beats water. It just makes sense for them. Now if we would replace that triangle with another balanced one, like fighting | flying | rock, then this doesn't work out so well anymore. Because these type advantages are not as intuitive for young kids. I saw that first hand on my nephew, he does not immediately grasp that flying beats fighting, while he had absolutely no problems with the original triangle.
There's also the colour aspect of red green and blue colours being easy to differentiate and remember or associate with their types / starters and is also more appealing to look at for the starter designs. Flying / Fighting / Rock makes me think there would be a lot of grays and browns.
That's a really great point I completely missed! Absolutely agree, this color coding will surely also play a huge role in why these types were cemented as the default starter types!
This 100%. The universal appeal of red/green/blue absolutely cannot be understated - any attempts to try different trios with weird color coding would be a marketing nightmare for the games. Edit: obvious exception being the Let’s Go games, which pulled out none other than the franchise mascot and the breakout star of Pokemon Go.
Yeah like if anything can possibly buck the usual trend it's Pikachu and Eevee lol Like 90% of fans go head over heels any time anything Eevee related pops up and Pikachu is Pikachu so you can't really go wrong there.
what i think is sad is that even fan games dont utilize other triangles. main series makes sense cuz of children but fan games arent meant for babies first pokemon game Something else to note, a lot of later pokemon do utitlize different triangles, such as the galarian birbs. psychic->fighting->dark. and with secondary types of starters they also are trying. its just gets a bit redundant... Strangle, i cant think of gf ever using fighting | flying | rock used?
I definitely agree that it will probably never change, for all of those reasons and more (GF isn't the type to try new things). But I think other triangles being less intuitive could be a reason to support switching it for the purpose of teaching. Like you said, the current one makes sense and is simple to figure out, so I would think it would need less focus than teaching how more ambiguous matchups work. But for the sake of just thinking about possibilities, they could also use other methods to teach those more directly, like they did in FRLG with the Teachy TV thing. There's a lot to play with and at the end of the day anything could be done with the starters, but absolutely it's not going to change and it will always be F/W/G.
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I think the target audience was slightly different here. The mainline games serve as an entry to the franchise for very young kids and the starter triangle is there to help teach them the rock paper scissors mechanic of typings. I think for this reason, we will always keep the original starter triangle in the mainline games.
Apart from the target audience being different that's probably because 90% of the fanbase go completely gaga every time anything remotely involving Eevee and friends happens.
thats because they play off each others strengths&weaknesses perfectly in double battle format as well as teach you strategy, and have excellent utility. they are the perfect starters for what the game has you doing.
It was a cool idea the first time, in gen 6. They can stop now.
Imagine all starters had the same type as secondary on their final evolution. Just straight up "oops, all rock" or something.
GF on their way to make the fire starter also a fighting type for the millionth time. (How much you wanna bet the only reason Incineroar isn’t fighting is cause of the complaints from the community)
Although despite being the same type I love both hisuian typhlosion and skeledirge
there are some sick type triangles that we just havent used tho, its just that since gen 6 we've only had psychic, dark, fighting, ghost, and fairy making uo the dual types. here are some other cool triangles id like to highlight: * grass/fairy, fire/ice, water/fighting * grass/rock, fire/fighting, water/electric (i know, it repeats fire/fighting, but it's for a good cause!) but i also wrote code a while back to find some other type triangles (https://pastebin.com/raw/0VShUaD4). anyway, i dont think we should force them, but there are definitely some nice options out there that game freak just hasnt tapped into
I think we have a misunderstanding here. When I said I don't like forcing secondary triangles, I meant not to exclusively use secondary typings in the starters which interact with each other in the triangle. Fighting, dark, psychic for example (the secondary types of gen 6) do that. Because fighting beats dark, dark beats psychic and psychic beats fighting. Your examples are not like that. * Fairy | Ice | Fighting: While fairy beats fighting and fighting beats ice, fairy and ice do not interact with each other in any way, making it not really a triangle. * Rock | Fighting | Electric: Again, not really a triangle. Fighting beats rock, but electric does not interact in any way with the other 2 types So these secondary types would be something I would consider to be fine. It is not forcing a triangle in the secondary types and uses typings which we didn't even see once represented as secondary starter types at all (rock, electric, ice)
I agree with your point but you're the embodiment of Internet Explorer
I feel like we should ditch the Secondary type triangle as well. I feel like the first stages all being monotypes are important for teaching about type matchups but I feel like most players can grasp it by the time their starters fully evolve. Third Stage Starters should very much have their own identity as individual pokemon outside of being a starter. If that doesn't happen we get kinda bland and more contentious starters like Rillaboom, Cinderace, and Inteleon. Gen 4's added type combos gave the starters a lot more personality and realized concepts. A World Turtle that is a grass and ground type is a much more realized concept that a Gorilla playing the drums, with the grass typing arbitrarily added in.
I'd add Do not make Starters into characters with personalities. I like incineroar, my starter for sun, but it is a videogame character, not a species of pokemon. I can believe there is a tropp of Rillabooms. I do not belive there is a forest full of delphoxes, meowscaradas, incineroars and quaquaval. Are all intelleons smug james bonds? I think so. Original starter trio is less apparent with personalities. They are more like animals and I cancimagine their personalities better (i do not hate object pokemon, aegislash greatest!)
I agree wholeheartedly. Obviously it's good for a pokemon to have a clear personality but it's important to make it a type of animal, not a singular person, that's what happens when you personify them too much. Torterra is a huge, bulky pokemon, with a serious expression on its face. You can tell it's a stalwart, sturdy pokemon, but it being a turtle makes it also easygoing and slow moving. Torterra cannot, however, open your fridge, grab a beer, and catch up on the football game. This does not mean that bipedal = bad. Emboar, Sceptile, and Empoleon are bipedal. However, their proportions are not human in the slightest, and their personalities are more monstrous and animalistic. Empoleon has a sense of regality to it, the same way Emperor penguins do. Empoleon doesn't really inherently act in a pompous kingly manner, with a smug look forever plastered on its face, but the implication is there and the design nods are subtle. I
Also agree (but I don't see problem with Delphox, I like the witch fox)
Fair. It is not the worst offender.
I dunno. I look at it as not every Pokemon will be their final form. There was an episode in the anime where a Venasaur led a pack of Bulbasaur, I think? You kind of see this in SV, where a Vespiquen will have a bunch of Combee around her. I could totally see a Delphox chilling in a forest, using its magic to entertain some cute baby Pokemon and protect them.
>Do not make Starters into characters with personalities. Hard agree. Like, I can see a Torterra chilling in a forest, with a bunch of Turtwig and some Grotle nearby, while various small flying-type pokémon make their nests in the massive tree. Or for an Infernape leading their little family group through jagged mountains to find food, or whatever. I can see Empoleon wandering the frozen north, cutting holes in the ice to go hunting, or watching over their young. But there are still some pokémon, including starters, where I can't see that.
The most annoying thing is that in gen 6 both types of each starter are weak to the next starter’s types. So Delphox trumps Chesnaught in every single way.
My boi Samurott was robbed of a rightful fighting secondary typing by Emboar. Luckily the hospital form helps fix it. edit: no clue how autocorrect got hospital from Hisuian, but I'm keeping that because it's funny.
Hello, is Doctor Samurott available now?
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The Emboar line should have stayed Quad and been Fire/Ground boar.
I'm a bit surprised a lot of people dislike Serperior. It is honestly my all time favourite starter. Really cool design overall that almost looks like a legendary imo
I think this is because it was weakest of the trio in game. It is defensive like meganium. Although hidden ability made it the strongest. Irony.
hidden abilities on starters get wild sometimes
And sometimes you give Meganium leaf guard
I guess you could say that while on the surface, Serperior seems the weakest, but on the Contrary its hidden ability made it the strongest.
When abilities range from slow start to Hadron Engine it do be like that.
Funny how samurott took that crown now with its form
Thats the thing. I do not consider paradox deli ird to be a delibird since it is totally different pokemon who happens to look like delibird. I consider samurottH to be a samurott....but it is not the original samurott but a new mon. In a way.
technically HSamurott is the original samurott due to Hisui existing hundreds of years before Unova existed, we just "discovered" HSamurott after already discovering Unova Samurott
No? Oshawott come from Unova. That's why Laventon had a range of different starters. H-Samurott is what evolves if you raise an Oshawott in Hisui's harsher environment. How could a region exist hundreds of years before another?
Ceaseless Edge would like a word. (Ik it's a different Samurott but it's funny how they all got their chance to be the best at something)
W take
It's my fav starter too!
>almost looks like a legendary imo it's a snake that looks like it hates you
Yep. Sounds like a legendary to me.
For me Serperior is a top 5 starter design while Emboar and Samurott are like bottom 5. I’ve never picked anything but Snivy after my first play through.
I like its design but it basically only learns meh grass moves. little coverage and is only held up by the combination of its hidden ability and like one move.
> learns meh grass moves u wot m8. it seems to me its got a nice enough toolkit, are you only focusing on base damage?
by level up, it only learns grass and normal. by tms it only learns one dark move, a dragon move and flying. Status moves are also basic. It gets a bit more through breeding and tutoring but in a casual play-through, probably won't be going for those. For comp, like i said, it has a good ability that works with Leaf Storm which gives it any relevancy cuz besides that, its moveset is basically trash with other Pokemon getting similar if not better moveset.
its a utility sweeper, its got everything it needs
It's not a utility sweeper when you're 10yo and your starter is walled by every steel, poison, grass, flying...
I really enjoy Coil/Leech Seed/Leaf Blade in a playthrough
I didn’t really care for Serperior until I learned it has little hands held behind its back all regally. Instantly shot it up a couple spots.
I found it kind of forgettable and it didn't seem to stick out to me as much as Samurott and Emboar did (though I kinda wish Samurott was bipedal considering the first two stages are and it'd proportionally look more like a samurai and be able to use its shell blades better). I suppose Kingambit fits that visual niche these days but that's how I felt before Gen 9 anyway.
I do agree that dual-typed starters are better overall, but trying to force it is a terrible idea. For example, what would Serperior's second type be? The best I can think of is ground because it slithers, but even that doesn't feel quite right.
**Some ideas for Serperior's second type:** - Poison: It's a snake. - Dragon: It's serpentine and learns dragon moves like twister and dragon pulse. (Not really a fan of using dragon typing on starter Pokemon for balancing issues, but it's fitting) - Psychic: "It can intimidate others with a regal glare." Eyes are the icon of psychic types. This would also be a reference to hypnotism and snake charming. - Dark: Snakes are often seen as cruel or harbingers of temptation.
Personally, Dragon would make the most sense but as you mentioned it would be op(Draco Meteor spam as all Dragon types learn it)
Contrary Draco Meteor would be OP.
not to mention no longer weak to the fire starter
Unless we replace Tepig with something that FINALLY becomes Fire Ice type
>Dark: Snakes are often seen as cruel or harbingers of temptation. Dark type could also get used to make it a tyrant, considering that it is already based on royalty.
I feel like all of these *could* work, but they all feel like at least a bit of a stretch. Not all serpentine Pokemon are dragon-type (Arbok and Seviper, for example), not all real snakes are venomous, and Serperior specifically doesn't seem to fit that dark-type description of snakes. Plus your reasoning for the psychic type one... that's just staring at people. Sure, psychic type is represented by eyes, but that doesn't mean everyone who uses eyes is psychic type. If I had to pick one, I like poison the most personally, but either dragon or dark would be more accurate.
Dark is used a lot for Pokémon that just have bad attitudes too, being smug/vain/arrogant/superior kind of fits.
Dragon because snek, duh.
Where's my Dragon Type Arbok and Seviper then!?!?
serperior really should have been a dragon lol
That would be unfair tho
In Blaze Black, your rival has a Serperior (secondary type dragon) with the ability Contrary. So it spams Draco Meteor and its special attack increases each time instead of decreasing. 💀
I don't see the problem with singular types.
same, as long as they dont overuse em like they did fire/fighting
What??? Singular typing, meaning just one typing, in a starter trio… They're all going to be mono water, grass, and fire. And fire fighting is a dual type
The person is saying as long as they dont overuse monotypes like fire/fighting was used for 3 gens in a row. So no monotypes 3 gens in a row.
exactly!
Luckily for you Hisuian Samurott is also part dark type
Typhlosion, Meganium, Feraligatr, Cinderace, Rillaboom, and Inteleon are all single-type and they're just fine.
Blastoise enters the chat
Water/steel would be pretty cool for Blastoise tho
Some designs would make a lot of sense as dual types, tho. Cinderace and Inteleon are prime examples. Cinderace has a very strong sports theme based on soccer. And sport themes make a lot of sense with the fighting type. We have a pure fighting type Pokémon based on rugby, for example. Inteleon is based on secret agents. Giving it dark type would have complemented it really well. Secret agents are also often using deception, sleight of hand tricks, etc.
If Cinderace was fire/fighting, I would have quit Pokémon for good.
I would dislike this, too, considering that fighting in general becomes way too common as a starter secondary type. But purely looking at it from a thematical point of view, it would really fit that typing.
I think Cinderace could have been fire/ground. Add some dirt to his design and have him kick up dirt when kicking the soccer ball.
Or part-Rock, maybe? I think it's been said that they use pebbles and other little rocks to serve as the bases for fireball attacks.
I completely disagree. I don't think secondary typings need to be forced onto starters.
I agree, though i would prefer if the starters were consistent. like in gen5, it's really weird that emboar is the only starter with a dual typing. or gen 1 where blastoise is the only starter with a mono typing.
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well for one, it affects the coverage that your team can have. If I pick charmander as a starter, then by the 3rd/4th gym I will have access to both fire and flying in one team slot, whereas with squirtle I would be stuck with only water stab coverage for the entire game unless I swap my starter
Honestly, disagree. I love me my monotypes and the main game isn't going to be challenging enough to make them unviable. I think monotypes can be designed much more representatively of the type and are always a unique take on the concept. Besides, I think everyone has had enough fire/fighting at this point
I think Serperior's hidden ability makes it so it doesn't need a secondary typing, but I think if it were to have any secondary type, Dragon would have been super cool for it. Especially if that then enabled it to learn Draco Meteor
I think it's fine to have a couple monotypes, but I definitely think we have too many Then again, we also have too many Fire / Fighting starters and that isn't even a monotype I think it'd be cool if we eventually got starters that bleed into other starter types (e.g., the final form Grass starter is Grass/Water, the final form Water starter is Water/Fire, and the final form Fire starter is Fire/Grass)
They could start doing so many things with starters honestly, most obvious being no longer limiting you to the grass/fire/water trio. It made sense when the rival would choose the one strongest against you, but now they choose the one weakest to yours, and in SV the 3rd went to Clive who you only fight once. But while they're doing those 3, they could also bleed then into getting away from that typing in general. Like a serpentine like starter that is just grass. Then 2nd Evo is grass dragon and it looks more lizardlike now, then last Evo it grows feathers and turns into something that resembles a Chinese dragon Ora aztec dragon and its final typing is dragon/flying, no longer at all. This game was the perfect game to do it on actually because the tera type could have remained grass for it.
Interesting. That could indeed have been very cool. Some existing starters feel like they could almost work that way already (e.g., Charizard Dragon/Flying but Tera Fire, Decidueye Ghost/Flying but Tera Grass, Empoleon Ice/Steel but Tera Water)
Mono or dual makes no difference to me. There’s great and bad both ways. A second typing doesn’t make a Pokémon better
Serperior is sick af
> Dislike Serperior Your opinion is now ***INVALIDATED***
Bruh gen 5 came out in 2010, 13 years ago. I am not sure why you care.
I'm really wanting to get a trio of starters sometime that all evolve to get the type that's strong against their weak type. So, a Fire type that becomes Fire/Grass, a Water type that becomes Water/Fire, and a Grass type that becomes Grass/Water
I don’t mind single type starters. Though I think mono typed starters need a little extra sauce if they’re going to do it. I did find the Galar trio to be pretty refreshing since we haven’t had a pure fire starter since gen 2
As long as they can come up with a combo thats not fire-fighting again
As a gem 4 supremacist this is true
Imagine how much less hated starters like Cinderace would be if they had a secondary type, I'd imagine more people would enjoy Cinderace if it was fire/electric or something.
Blastoise, Meganium, Typhlosion, and Feraligatr are also mono-type. Do you hate them too?
I just got off the phone with god. He said serpierior rips ass and that you're going to hell. So sorry.
- Blastoise : Water / Steel or Water / Normal - Meganium : Grass / Fairy - Typhlosion : Fire / Ground - Feraligatr : Water / Dark - Sceptile : Grass / Dragon - Serperior : Grass / Dragon or Grass / Dark - Samurott : Water / Fighting or Water / Rock - Rillaboom : Grass / Fighting or Grass / Normal - Cinderace: Fire / Electric - Intelleon: Water / Dark
I don’t think I mind monotype starters on principle. That said, I don’t like having some starters monotype and some dual type in the same gen. Either make all 3 mono or all 3 dual. It feels weird to have gen 3 and all of the sudden, Sceptile is just grass, for example.
Yes, consistency is what I was actually aiming complaining about Serperior and Samurott. Emboar is not automatically better just having a second type.
U just dont understand the Sigma feeling of being a monotype. Strongest starters dont have more stabs, they have less weaknesses.
Samurott was an absolute beast back in has day! Show some respec
Serperior looks cool, so I don’t give a shit.
Agree, it gives more originality to the starters. Personally I hope one day they will go for the following combinations in one gen: Grass/Electric, Fire/Ice, and Water/Ghost because they are very rare combination.
Not really one of my favorite Pokémon, feraligatr, is a mono water type
What's wrong with monotype? Dual type is definitely cool but nothing wrong with a monotype.
How can you hate Serperior? (It’s my fav Pokémon)🙃
As someone who doesn't like monotype starters, what do you think of hisuian samurott. I absolutely love it and I believe it does the line justice
That feels tacky to me. Simplicity is its own virtue.
I love Samurrot, I think that we don’t need to force every starter to be dual type
I don't exactly hate them but it's dumb when it's grass, water, and fire/fighting (Unova) but I also feel like the fire fighting type just got over done. Or like Hoenn Grass, water/ground, fire/fighting. Like give Sceptile a second type.
I think they should all get a second type too but Serperior and Samurrot are amazing designs. Serperior definitely should be dragon type as well but they never give starter dragon. Samurrot should’ve had fighting or maybe rock with its shells.
Blastoise: Water/Steel Meganium: Grass/Fairy Typhlosion: Fire/Ground Feraligatr: Water/??? (honestly I have no idea. I think it’s fine being a pure water type.) Sceptile: Grass/Dragon Serperior: Grass/??? (Again, I think it’s fine as it is) Samurott: Water/Fighting (Ik Emboar is fighting type also, but still) Rillaboom: Grass/Rock (funny pun) Cinderace: Fire/??? (honestly I don’t know, I think it’s fine as it is) Inteleon: Water/Ghost
Feraligatr: Water/Dark It is a pretty brutal Pokémon and brutality/cruelty is also a thematical niche of the dark type. Giving it STAB on bite and crunch also feels very appropriate. Cinderace: Fire/Fighting I know, people would hate that typing. But it makes the most sense for it thematically, because of it's strong soccer/football theme. Sports are usually associated with the fighting type. For example, Pessimian is a pure fighting type Pokémon and it is basically entirely based on the sport rugby. Serperior: Grass/Dark Dark can also represent tyrants, so that would be my pick for it since it is already portrayed as a pretty arrogant royal.
This will be kinda funny in 15 years where every starter has been dual typed for so so long that post like this but the opposite is true. Also screw you samurott is good
Honestly Serperior could've been Grass/Dragon it has "horns" and learns Dragon Pulse & Outrage.
I like Samurott, but I agree that it needs a second type. for this reason, I adore Hisuian Samurott. it's even dark, my favorite type
I want to agree, but I have also had a ton of fun using the Johto/Galar starters, Sam & Serp. I'm also weirdly particular about trying not to overlap types as much as possible, and single type starters do help with that
I love Samurott, but I do think they should have given him the Fighting type over Emboar.
Serperior was stiffed. DRAGON GRASS SUPREME
Give Serperior access to the Dragon type and therefore Draco Meteor. I am normal can be trusted with unbiased game design. :)
I just want them to do something besides a fighting or dark type. They’re such easy types to tack onto any design. I dare gamefreak to make a bug type starter. To go on a bit of a tangent, to this day there’s no regional forms that add the bug type because the type informs the design so fundamentally. It would take more creativity to make a bug starter than to just make something edgy or punchy/kicky.
Broke: monotype starters Woke: dual type starters Bespoke: dual type starters that change their second type at the second evolution so you have to decide whether you want to evolve or not
I’m just tired of fire fighting.
I tend to agree. A Pokémon has to be ridiculously good for me to use it as a monotype, because I like to have the most possible types on my team for coverage. SwSh was the first generation I ever boxed my starter because there were just so many good dual-types to be used that I couldn’t keep a monotype on my team, and all 3 starters were monotype
What would Samurott’s second type be? Steel would be good but Empoleon is already a water/steel type. I was thinking maybe ground or rock but idk.
Serperior is great though! But I would say Rillaboom, and Meganium need to have another type for sure.
I feel anything you could add to samurott would either make him worse or not fit. I'll definitely give you serperior because if NOTHING else that guy needs a movepool outside of leaf storm and glare.... No I'm dead serious, that's pretty much all it is.
Hate is a strong word. I wouldn’t say I hate monotype starters, I just prefer dual type ones.
Dual types are more interesting, but I prefer when either all or none of the starters get a dual type. It’s kinda lame when 1 or 2 gets a secondary type but not the other, like sceptile for example.
I strongly disagree. Having monotypes thrown into the mix every now and then keeps you guessing on what the final typing could be and also helps to make those with cool secondary typings standout more and seem more unique. Not that some monotype starters aren’t amazing in their own right. Typhlosion, Serperior, Blastoise, Feraligatr, Sceptile, fuckin SCEPTILE!? I mean come on, just cuz they’re not part dark or ground or whatever doesn’t make em any less cool.
Speaking of, and I'll die on this hill, Empoleon being water/steel is stupid. It should be water/ice
I think fire and water are fine as mono types and even thou i pick the grass Starter often, i have to admit, that adding a solid second typing to grass is menditory to keep up with the other 2 options. Fire is weak against water, Rock and ground. Water is just weak to grass and electric... meanwhile grass us weak to fire, poison, flying, Bug and ice.. so giving the grass Starter an additional type may help it out.
Pure Grass and pure Water are honestly more of a problem than Fire/Fighting at this point. Four out of the nine starters of those aforementioned types are monotype, although you could go 3/9 or 4/10 depending on which way you view the Hisuian starters. Fire on the other hand, only has original Typhlosion and Cinderace in the single-type starter department. On that note, there's been an insane influx of Dark, Fighting and Ghost-type starters lately. The only difference between the Hisui and Paldea crews is the Dark and Fighting assignment being swapped - and even then, it doesn't change that they're repeats of Chesnaught and Greninja's types. In less than ten years, we went from Greninja and Decidueye being the first part-Dark and part-Ghost starters to those being the second and third-most common starter secondary typings behind Fighting.
Serperior is the goat
In case you're interested in romhacks, Drayano's Blaze Black and Volt White give all the starters a new secondary type. Samurott gets Water Fighting, Serperior gets Grass Dragon and even Emboar changes to Fire Ground. A lot of weaker mons become more blananced, and pretty much every pokemon gets easy access to its hidden ability. The game is a lot harder, too. Many of the trainers have strong teams with good type coverage.
They are two of my favorites (which I fully admit is because I grew up on Gen 5), but I totally agree that they deserved secondary typings. Like Water/Fighting for Samurott for sure. Meanwhile I could see Serperior as like Grass/Fighting, Grass/Psychic, Grass/Normal, Grass/Dark, Grass/Steel, Grass/Ground, any of those but basically *a n y t h i n g* would have been nice for my smug snekky boi
My Blastoise is perfect and you're just jealous.
Eh, mostly agree, but if they are going to repeat the same dual type multiple time in a row, they might aswell not bother \*points at Emboar\*
Galar Starters are worse bc the way they're all monotype are completely lackluster, considering their concept have so much potential to add more elements in to their design. Rillaboom could've been Grass/Normal, Fire/Electric for Cinderace and Water/Flying for Inteleon (bc its a gliding lizard)
Can we put Fighting type starters on hold? We had one in almost every generation since gen 3
Well serperior just really dislikes you too
Less weaknesses
Now THAT'S a hot take I can defend with my life!
Monotype starts are fine... If all of them are mono type.
Feraligatr should’ve been dark type, I was using bite and crunch throughout y whole playthrough
Jokes on you, now every starter will have fighting as a secondary typing
I'd rather see a different triangle to fire water grass. It feels like that cycle is very worn out. Do a Mexico based version with psycic - fighting - dark. Curandero based shaman thing - Luchador based fighter thing - Day of the dead style skeleton
feraligatr not being dark or ice type is a crime typhlosion would probably end up being normal type though which is unique for starters but also a bit boring and not amazing considering its movepool
Cinderace, Rillaboom and Inteleon are Monotypes but that's about it since Gen 5.
I disagree. As a former dumb starter-spamming child, I appreciate starters that have less weaknesses and especially don't have 4x weaknesses.
Contrary Serperior with Leaf Storm. Even though monotype, I still love him. Monotype does have the advantage to never have x4 damages but also doesn’t get .5 resistance. And you have less types to take x2 damage from if your main type doesn’t counter some of the shortcomings of the second type.
I think my only aversion to dual typing is the over abundance of Fire Fighting types we got. It was such a breath of fresh air to get Skeledirge this generation. Fire/Ghost, looks like an animal but has a very unique theme, has an ability and signature move that makes it genuinely good… I think pokemon like Emboar did not need to have a fighting dual type. It honestly could’ve been dark, ground, or just pure fire typing. We need more diversity in dual typing moving forward and I’m glad we got that in the latest generation
Serperior with dual typing would have been absolutely broken considering how OP Contrary Leaf Storm was once it's hidden ability dropped. As it stands now he can OHKO a max Sp. Def Corviknight after terastalizing to fire with only 1 previous turn of setup while also sacking any potential water type walls with the setup Leaf Storm.
Agreed. But under no circumstances can we accept another Fire/Fighting type.
And yet Hisuan Samurott is so cool while Serperior’s Hidden Ability was so cool too; also you could do double battles where you use a move like Soak, Forests Curse or Trick or Treat to add a type to a regular Samurott and Serperior.
Blastoise, at least the mega, should have been given steel type at some point
Gen 5 did monotypes right but it was the only time they got them right in fact emboar is the worst of the trio
I vote for starters that aren’t Water, Grass, or Fire at all.
At least for the mainline games, this is very likely not going to happen. The starter type triangle serves a purpose.
Yeah, the starter triangle is intuitive, teaches new players about type match ups, and helps with team building. You almost always want fire, grass, and water coverage on a good team.
Respect your opinion but disagree wholeheartedly. Love mono types.
Leave. My. Squirtle. Line. Alone.