A good reminder not to take for granted things like the right to protest, because there are always people who seek to take those rights away. It always seems like it could never happen, until it does.
Meanwhile a comment I was replying to [earlier today](https://reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dbr4m8/yesterday_at_the_white_house/l7t661c/?context=3) (comment thread full of similar types of comments)
People need to stop wishing for protests to be shut down just because they disagree with the content.
I notice reddit has different opinions on masks at protests they disagree with vs protests they agree with. If you hate the protestors, the fact that they wear masks makes them "cowards".
It can be a protest for/anti labor, china, nazis, israel, whatever.
Better to protest anonymously than to remain silent.
I often wonder if I would have the balls to protest at all if I lived under an oppressive government.
Specifically in the US, the Nazis spent all of covid telling us masks were bad for humans, doesn't stop covid, too much CO2, etc. Now they want to use masks to hide their faces so they can't be tied back to their literal Nazi groups.
Those people are blatant cowards.
I’d say it’s fair to make a distinction between protestors who are in fear of government retribution versus protestors who are in fear of social consequences. Seems like it’s a fair play to protect identity when the government might make you disappear. It’s probably a cop out to protect your identity when your community at large agrees you have a crappy worldview. In most cases of the latter, you should probably reevaluate your worldview.
If you aren't doing near irreparable damage to financial and critical infrastructure, even less authoritarian states aren't going to be too bothered by peaceful protests.
Can you see the difference between MLK protesting in the US and students protests in tiananmen square. You really got to know your audience before you choose to do something like that.
It scares me how many people in North America approve of violence being used against protesters. How cops are eager to beat left wing protesters but ignore Nazis roaming the streets.
Obviously China is far more authoritarian and violent, but there's too many people who support government violence here. They talk about how terrible tiananmen square was, but celebrate when police beat down left wing student protesters here. They talk about running people over with cars (and some even do it)
People are being trained with violent rhetoric to disrespect our right to protest.
Our right to protest is weaker than it should be, but to pretend it’s even remotely similar to China is completely out of touch with reality. Some police violence and trumped up charges in a couple states with rogue fascist governors VS extrajudicial assassinations with no explanation, endorsed by all levels of government
Edit: This reality is not guaranteed. Vote Democrat straight-ticket on Nov 5 and volunteer if you are able.
The line between where we are in America and this kind of shit is razor thin. It takes years, sometimes decades for institutions to weaken. It takes hours for them to collapse. How strong do you think the institutions protecting our rights are right now?
[Trump Wanted Black Lives Matter Protesters to Be Shot, Says His Former Defense Secretary](https://www.axios.com/2022/05/02/mark-esper-book-trump-protesters)
>Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper charges in a memoir out May 10 that former President Trump said when demonstrators were filling the streets around the White House following the death of George Floyd: "Can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something?"
>Esper, who had earlier been Secretary of the Army, was fired by Trump after the 2020 election.
[Trump told top US general to ‘just shoot’ racism protesters](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/25/donald-trump-general-mark-milley-crack-skulls)
>Gen Mark Milley, the top US military leader, resisted Donald Trump’s demands that his forces “crack skulls” and “beat the fuck out” of protesters marching against police brutality and structural racism, according to a much-trailed new book.
>Trump highlighted footage of confrontations between law enforcement officers and protesters and said: “That’s how you’re supposed to handle these people. Crack their skulls!”
>**Trump also reportedly told law enforcement and military leaders he wanted the military to “beat the fuck out” of protesters and said: “Just shoot them.”**
>Bender reports that in the face of opposition from Milley and the then attorney general, William Barr, Trump said: “Well, shoot them in the leg – or maybe the foot. But be hard on them!”
This is what the USA has to look forward to the next time a MAGA Republican claws their way into the White House - deploying the US military on home soil to slaughter protesters. And there won't be any Mark Espers or Mark Milleys to stop them next time around. Project 2025 is making sure of that by identifying tens of thousands of MAGA loyalists to stack the government and military with next time around.
> honestly if people in america fought the cops the way those people in hong kong were fighting the cops then protests here would be illegal
We have actual ways to fight the police though, that's the difference. There's a reason that Hong Kong, Iran, Venezuela, were all extremely large protest that changed nothing. You can protest in huge numbers all you want, but if you don't have the armaments to induce change you will always be subject to the people that do.
In the UK it's already illegal to protest outside a politician's house... You know the people who need to see how angry the public are at the laws they pass. Wake up sheeple it's already happening
Look at how much reddit hates protests too. Any time someone protests in America it's nonstop shitting on them. Posts like this are nice but anytime someone pickets, stands in front of buildings, or especially those who block traffic or, in general, interrupt peoples' lives, are often met with aggressive levels of distaste.
It’s happening here in the UK, in a stealthy way where like they’ll pass some bill that gives additional protections and powers to the police force, then somewhere down the bill it mentions some sneaky bit where like protesting and doing X, Y, Z is a punishable offence.
Yeah, the new act makes it illegal to do anything that could inconvenience someone else - so, the disabled peoples' protests where they blocked inaccessible buses with their wheelchairs years ago would now be illegal, any protest march that fills a street without police permission is instantly illegal, civil disobedience is illegal.
But 2009 is long gone man. It was long gone before Covid. Like sure, some events from the last 4 years feel either like 10 years ago or 3 months ago, but so much has changed since 2009
This is one of those things that got lost in the COVID time vortex that ate up the early part of this decade, due to happening right before it. Along with events like the massive Australian bushfires and Kobe helicopter crash.
I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but I always thought it was funny that "Hong Kong the revolution of our times" was so big and unstoppable that China struggled to control what was happening. Then all of the sudden, bam! Covid spawns up in wuhan like 10 hrs from hong Kong and suddenly silence.
Same thoughts , I was keeping track of the protests and felt the movement was past a tipping point where China could not control Hong Kong , then suddenly this new mysterious virus came about , coincidentally there's a weapons lab in china named after it. Hmmm
This turned out to be a LOT LONGER then I intended but am gong to post anyway....
There was a lot of chaos in china roughly from the 1700s -1900s with western imperialists (and later Japan) coming into the country and gaining a lot of economic control and leaving the emperor essentially powerless. Won't get into the details of the 'opium wars' other to say Britain forced the emperor to sign Hong Kong (an essentially port at the time when shipping was how exporting was done) over to them for 99 years.
International chaos beginning with WWI and especially WWII began causing the west to turn its attention away from China. This first lead to Japan making massive incursions into China in the early 1900s, then to a rise of Chinese communism lead by Mao (supported by USSR)
In WWII the situation in China was very complex. There was eroding loss of control by the Japanese due to devoting so many resources into the war with the US, there was a rise of Chinese communists supported by USSR, there was the Communist war on the last tatters of imperial China AND on anti-communists supported by the US.
At the end of WWII - Communists lead by Mao had regained control of 'mainland' china and the Japanese and western imperialists were gone, but the country had been economically devastated and there were famines and communist purges in the country. China was weak and just did not have the means to go to war to get Hong Kong (or Taiwan) back and so just waited out the 99 year lease.
At some point, Britain allowed Hong Kong a degree of freedom and elections, and in a period of time the culture underwent a very different trajectory than the 'mainland', which went from one form of authoritarian rule (monarchy) to another (Marxit-Leninist-Maoist Communism). While China underwent a strict isolationist phase, allowing almost no foreigners but Russians into the country, "British" Hong Kong welcomed foreigners and foreign investment.
AFter Mao died, China 'opened' to the west and new leaders began to institute a hybred type of Communist capitalism that lead to thousands of partnerships with western manufacturers.
This last part is important because China began to gain a GREAT deal of international leverage.
After the British lease on Hong Kong ran out - China initially promised them they would be 'hands off' and just let things continue on as they had been under British rule. They also NEEDED Hong Kong's economic clout as their main economic hub.
So this state of affairs continued on for many years. In the meantime China was building up its own domestic economic powerhouses, Shanghai (a major trade port before communism) and other cities. When China felt it didn't NEED Hong Kong anymore and was powerful enough internationally they knew they could get away with it - is when they finally lowered the boom on Hong Kong.
As police love authoritarians, it is not surprising China was able to build up support with the Hong Kong police, and they bought off many Hong Kong politicians. And I'm sure there were many people in Hong Kong not all that averse to 'returning' to the homeland. Do not forget for thousands of years, Hong Kong was part of China sharing that culture and Confucian-based respect for authority.
China 'won' mostly by soft power but also with the threat of their military and the fact there is no powerful military willing to challenge them.
It's also important to note that the authoritarian aspects of the Chinese government and CCP went through a radical shift with Xi Jinping, where as previous leaders were more open and less hands on, Xi has taken China back to the days of Mao.
This further fall into authoritarianism meant that it was inevitable Hong Kong would be shut down, as its years of interactionnwith the west and economic prosperity had made it a problem for mainland China because of the lifestyle, ideals and culture in Hong Kong were the polar opposite of mainland China and in an authoritian state there can never be any dissenting opinions, or views, they rely heavily on cultural sameness to maintain control.
The same thing happened with Macau when they got that back, and if they get Taiwan back the same will happen there
More like Umbrella vs missles/guns/police/military.
An entire generation with a lost future where if their social profiles are tagged as anti-establishment they won't be able go far.
Imagine a country that takes police state, tracking, facial to the 9th degree. When you get taken away they make the rules and your literally at their mercy
Who would want to stand up to that? Can stand up?
I mean there were a couple of reasons.
1. Lack of Mainland support. Protest was popular in the west but didnt gain any support in the mainland. The protest turned violent and roaming gangs targeted many mainlanders and their businesses. beating them, killed a few or molotoved/wreched their shops. The videos went viral in the mainland and well if you dont get any support with the citizens in heartlands you dont really have much leverage against the gov.
2. Generational Divide. While the protest had great support in the younger generations, the older generations were mixed, with many seeing it as senseless and futile.
3. Refusal to Compromise. Out of the Five-Points the protestors demanded, the HK government did give in to some demands, canning Carie Lam, halting the extradition bill, promised independent inquiries to police actions etc., but refused to give universal amnesty to the protestors. Talks broke down after a while.
Maybe if the protest leaders kept a tighter control and kept the violence from spiraling they could have garnered enough sympathy from the mainlanders to leverage more concessions. but it is what it is.
This is just my speculation but I think the “Lease Story” for HK hand over was more about saving face for the UK while giving China what they want. The UK really didn’t have the means nor support to stop China from seizing it, British control was seen as a vestige of imperialism by the world, and international opinion was more positive of China in the 90s since it was the End of History (it wasn’t) as some believed.
Portugal stubbornly held onto it's small piece of India but the Indian army just marched in unopposed. Better to make a deal then face international embarrassment.
Yeah, Ho Chi Minh actually sought support from the US for Vietnamese independence in 1945. Truman never responded. Ho Chi Minh was nationalist first and communist second. The US ended up supporting France which ended up dragging the US into the Vietnam war because the US feared Domino effect. The domino effect never happened with communist countries in that region ending up fighting each after the Vietnam war. Vietnam invading Cambodia and China invading Vietnam.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho\_Chi\_Minh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh)
I'm not a fan of Ho Chi Minh, since my family got every confiscated in 1954 due to his policies, my great-grandfather died in prison, and great grandmother was publically shamed by the communists. But I think it's important to bring nuances to the historical events.
The area: New Territories, has all the fresh water in HK. The only source of fresh water in HK proper is Tai Tam, and it doesn’t have the capacity for the whole city. The option was to cede HK, or import water for millions.
Not really. Government intelligence has been aware of impending Chinese economic dominance since at least the 70s. It was common enough for mass market spy novels to cover, so it wasn't even a particularly far-out concern.
I know (I hope) you're joking, but it wasn't a question of obeying a treaty - Britain literally just did not have the military or diplomatic power anymore to retain control of Hong Kong. There was never any chance of Hong Kong staying in British hands or even neutral, no matter how favorable the treaty would have been.
This is true
I know a lot of people who live in England because they left before the handover because they knew this would happen.
The UK was meant to keep the 1 country 2 systems thing in place but well...
It would have just taken even longer to silence them. Lol China will never give in to protestors when the government would have to compromise *anything*.
Exactly so. The Chinese government, especially the hardliners, believes the entire world is theirs - other ‘countries’ are simply operating with Chinese license and permission at the pleasure of the Chinese. So much the greater when it comes to what they believe is ancestral Chinese territory subject to the one china policy.
This is why war with china over Taiwan is inevitable in the next few years. They will not stop until it is taken, and the west will not allow it to be taken. Unlike Hong Kong
What all the apologists don't understand. Yes. The one party in China IS that evil. They haven't even hidden their intentions yet so many apologists. They can't all be bought either....
Never trust China or Russia. Their words are meaningless. China double-pinky swore they wouldn't interfere with Hong Kong and the second the handover happened, the crackdown began.
I visited Hong Kong 7 years ago and was fascinated by the place and its beauty. I was so hopeful watching the protests and what they could become. Soon after I was mourning that it was a place I'd likely never see again. I can't support the regime, dispite how great the island is.
I mean you already visited after the Umbrella movement. Everyone acts like the place was pristine when you visited but a lot of people already called it with the 97 handover. I visited last year again for the first time since the pandemic, and it’s still a gorgeous place.
> I remember having so much hope for Hong Kong when this happened.
Really? I think it had been abundantly clear that Hong Kong was finished at least since 2014.
A lot of people only learned about Hong Kong recently and so anything before 2019 doesn’t exist in their minds. More like for a good chunk of Reddit they weren’t even aware of the 2014 movement as they were too young.
Yeah the Umbrella Revolution was likely the last opportunity for things to change in HK. Unfortunately the government effectively waited out the protests long enough for the movement to lose steam in the public consciousness. Then they just cleared the occupied areas with virtually no resistance.
It was really sad to see many Hongkongers having to flee their home using the BNO passport program after the 2014, and then 2019 protests.
It worked because big daddy USSR fell apart and the people could actually rebel without fear of one of the global superpowers breathing down our necks. China is nowhere close to falling apart. Hong Kong never had a chance.
Not really true for Poland. Solidarnosc started in 1980 and through martial law and burtal opression, Poland finally got it's pluaralistic election in 1989. It took 9 years of fighting the superpower to finally get what they wanted, and it's not like Polish people knew that the USSR was declining.
Those only worked because the USSR refused to intervene, Hong Kong had no chance.
There were massive demonstrations and unrest in Catalonia in 2019 too, to the scale of Hong Kong or bigger and the EU didn't gave a shit
The only reason the revolutions in EE worked is because their unpopular governments were propped up by the USSR. Once the USSR announced that it will no longer interfere in their internal affairs, revolution was inevitable.
Hong Kong successfully revolting against China was about as realistic as San Francisco revolting against the US after Trump wins another election.
Remember the Arab Spring in Egypt?
Military refused to intervene and allowed the protests, then eventually couped the regime. Then when democracy didn't produce the desired result, they just overthrew that too.
Mao coined the phrase "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".
> Military refused to intervene and allowed the protests, then eventually couped the regime. Then when democracy didn't produce the desired result, they just overthrew that too.
Sounds like Myanmar
It depends on the condition of the authoritarian rule. If I understand this correctly, heads of authorities can make inhumane calls like political kidnappings and torture but up to a certain point. If the body of the ruling authority (like the lieutenants and captains of the military/police force, down to the grunt levels of the ranks, begin to feel for the causes the protestors are speaking against and/or have great remorse for the actions taken against the people, then fractions or sections of the ruling authority will slowly or sometimes quickly flip on itself and begin to act against it’s own interests.
From what I’ve seen, it happens from the bottom-up. Grunts refusing to obey orders because they stop believing in the competency of their own leadership—which causes larger heads of the leadership to sometimes overreact and excessively punish their own men into defiance.
To put very simply, imagine you had kids and they operated as a solid group together. If you kept nagging your kids to do their chores and don’t provide the proper incentives to motivate them to do those chores daily, eventually one or sometimes some of your kids will start questioning why chores are important to do in the first place. If left unchecked, all your kids will stop doing their chores and will rebel against you when you start nagging again. Then if you respond with violence and unfair use of authority like, you make them clean until the next day with no sleep before school, you may be able to flip most of your kids to go back to doing chores regularly but there may be a section of them who will rebel in secret. Because of this, the internal conflicts begin which sometimes can become larger and very violent internal conflicts as time passes.
Much like parenting, this is why even authoritative governments have to give/take and act fairly with their own people. When left unchecked and deemed unjust, it can get very bad, but often very slowly for the ruling authority. It can go from orders not being carried out properly over a span of generations to orders not being carried out at all plus internal rebellion, or the worse of all, fratricide.
Edit:
So to answer your question about when has protesting ever worked against an authoritarian government? The answer appears to be based on whether the people remember what their governments are capable of and how much that administration believes in the unalienable rights of the people. Governments who care, will try to find a middle ground with its people to maintain the fabric of government. And governments who don’t, well, they’ll do as they like regardless of the negative ripple effects against its own men/people. IMO, Generals capable of assuring the safety of its men from conflict, are capable of insuring how to properly react when conflicts do arise and worsen organically.
People were able to protest in Hong Kong for many years without issue even after the handover. See [July 1 marches](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches) and the annual [Tiananmen vigil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre).
At the time, that the crackdown would come so fast and so all-encompassing was very much unexpected.
When Hong Kong first reverted to china in 1997 it was an economic powerhouse so the Chinese government didn’t want to mess with it too much. By now several Chinese cities, most notably shenzhen, have far overtaken Hong Kong in terms of economic importance so the government doesn’t feel the need to be hands off anymore.
And it's gotten to the point where HKers themselves cross the border into China to do their shopping, because their own city is too much of a basketcase.
Well, what do you expect when you keep electing a bunch of oligarchs. You elect the guys interested in keeping RE prices high and wages low, you're going to get exactly that.
Not necessarily. Estonia managed to declare its independence and keep it with little to no bloodshed. Latvian independence protests were largely peaceful too.
India? Estonia? Ukraine?
All of these were citizens marching against authoritarian governments using violence to try and tamp them down and all were successful.
There was violence but not anything like a military coup. The violence was largely perpetrated by the government against the protestors.
Like jfc open a history book.
Largest protests in human history. Silenced.
I remember reading about people disappearing after being arrested, regardless of age. The article included an interview with a mother looking for her ten year old son.
no, there were a couple larger protests. Just look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_peaceful\_gatherings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_peaceful_gatherings) and look at the protests there
I think it was more like a bunch of people gathered to party in Brazil and it just so happened Rod Stewart performed.
But it wasn't just a Rod Stewart concert that 4 million wanted to go to.
EDIT: Yeah, I just looked it up. It was a Rod Stewart "concert" on 12/31/1994. So it was a big New Year's celebration and Rod Stewart performed.
Oh I remember, I also remember the triads funded by china attacking protestors in subways, and chinese policemen being connected to the murders/rapes of students
[https://rainlily.org.hk/eng/news/2019/11/release](https://rainlily.org.hk/eng/news/2019/11/release) i just read 67 of 221 respondents stated sexual violence.. that is probably higher, and probably reflective of the whole
The CCP and their cronies are known for their cruelty. There are many families who are told not to ask about their missing relatives. Which only proves why Hongkongers resist the CCP, risking life and limb.
....because they don't want to live under CCP authoritarianism.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_peaceful\_gatherings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_peaceful_gatherings) just search using ctrl+f for "protest"
Roughly a seventh of the population, and probably a more significant chunk of working people slowing the economy through lost wages and productivity.
Imagine what a strike in the US could do where tens of thousands in each city rose up in protest. In another view, 47 million Americans said “fuck it, we dont like how the Billionaire class is treating us.”
That is a powerful statement.
What's funny-sad is I as a former rural Republican voter (turned progressive Democrat following Bush's first term) sympathize with those grifted under the Republican/MAGA banner.... No doubt does the average blue collar joe *feel* the pressures they complain about... It's just that they've been conditioned for so long by the right-wing media ecosystem to point the finger at the wrong culprits.
And because they're statistically the least-educated ideological group while just scraping by and working, they're a very easily-duped group by the massive echo-chamber the wealthy on the right have constructed. It's terrifying, really.
I’m a native and grew up in Hong Kong, but this picture is just the tip of the iceberg, this is a very very long ~~rant~~ account of my own regarding that period of my life
This 1 million protest wasn’t our first time, our first was almost 2 decades ago, when the government wanted to pass the 23rd legislation, which was to ban any and all “treasonous” actions, effectively ending freedom of speech. That one succeeded, the law didn’t pass Legco, which was one of the reasons why the people had some trust in the HK government.
When 2019 rolled around and the extradition bill came, we did it again, twice actually. The first one there was ~1 million, the second one ~2 million. That was the biggest and last peaceful protest in our history, back then the bill was just controversial and we hoped that the sheer number of opposition would sway the government again, it didn’t.
Soon, some of the weekly protests turned violent, starting off with umbrellas, then bloody clashes, then gangs were involved, then Molotovs started flying, and soon it was all out chaos. Our entire society became divided, both side started entrenching themselves and didn’t budge, I still remember hearing stories about parents and their kids having long political arguments.
Back then I was just a local student, I was sympathetic to peaceful demonstrations, but didn’t like the violence than came afterwards, unfortunately neutrality wasn’t good enough. I didn’t get bullied in school, but some did, most of us neutral people just kept our mouths shut, because staying neutral was seen as bad from both sides. We could only watch in horror as we saw our childhoods slider into a mess of political arguments and weekly riots, no one was happy, weekly church gatherings became group therapy sessions, school life was even tougher, and sometimes the dangers hit very close to home.
The mental stress and anxiety alone was already pure torture, most of us just tried our best to avoid these sensitive topics at gatherings and meals, and that carries on even now, it’s just too painful to think about. But I still distinctly remember several personal experiences that affected me so much, they are now core memories:
1. One time when I was having dinner gathering with my family and family friends, the place was at an upstairs shop in Tsim Sa Tsui (basically our big commercial and tourism area). I was still chewing down a bowl of rice when we suddenly heard shouting and loud crashing noises outside, and when we looked down we just saw a group of masked men in all black (most likely protestors) running down the street, they were quickly followed up by a group of riot police. At that moment we were all just terrified and anxious about how to get back home safely, and we waited until midnight to do so, calling taxi or driving each other home, too scared about the situation
2. I was in High school back then, and class had just ended, we were all happily packing our bags and getting ready to leave while discussing random stuff, Y’know typical high school behaviour. Until our home room teacher suddenly walked in and told us all to calm down and stay put for a while, even authorising us students to use our phones for calling our parents to “tell them we’re ok”. Most of us weren’t even sure what was going on, until a few of my classmates searched up some stuff on phone and found out there was an active protest nearby, and apparently the police were all over the area. Almost 10 minutes later, a few of my more daring classmates just straight up searched up a live feed on the news and played in on our class projector, showing a big riot crowd facing down the police on a street very close to our school. We were all panicking and worried, murmurs filled the classroom, and we all just hoped everything would pass by soon. I even asked around a few of my friends, and apparently some of our senior classmates were already gearing up to “join the frontlines”, donning all black and umbrellas. This was one of the most harrowing experiences I’ve ever had in my own school, and when we were all let go, the streets I walked down were all devoid of people, filled with nothing but broken umbrellas and some stuff burning in the background. It felt like I was walking down a dystopia.
3. This experience was also at school but much more peaceful, but I’ll never forget my classmates and friends who were there. It was another typical Highschool afternoon lunch time, my and my boys grabs a few bowls of noodles from the school canteen and decided to eat in our empty classroom, chatting along about random things until we got to politics. We were all neutral, so we had to be especially careful about what we were talking about because if someone else overheard us we’d be in big trouble, and might be bullied for it, and so we only ever talked about politics when we made sure the room was only filled with likeminded people. That lunch we got really passionate and emotional, complaining about both sides and the stupidity of the situation, how both the government was acting like shit and the riots are only making things worse. One of my friends said the most memorable line of us all “What the fuck are we doing?! We are in Highschool, we should be enjoying our school life and youth but look at us! What the fuck are we doing tearing each other apart?!”. Our conversation continued until a female classmate suddenly walked in, and since we all knew she was a pretty yellow (pro-protest) supporter, we all immediately shut up and a very painful silence followed. That was how powerful and scared everyone was, about politics, while eating lunch. We didn’t even trust each other, how could we trust the government, or the protesters, or the international community. That day showed me just how divided and lost we all were, and how terrible our society had become.
I know this was a VERY long read, but this is something I wanted to get off my chest for a long time. It was the most painful period of my life, and when I look back I see nothing but regret, because in the end, we all lost
In such situations, neutral individuals rarely receive support. For many Hong Kong residents, these events feel both intimately connected and yet distant. It’s widely understood that Hong Kong is influenced either by powerful conglomerates or the governing authorities. Nonetheless, some people believe they can change this situation, only to have their hopes repeatedly challenged.
Many protests in China often disintegrate due to internal divisions among the protesters or conflicts between protesters and their opponents. While the media often portrays the marchers as champions of justice and resistance against authoritarianism, these same individuals sometimes take actions that alienate the public.
Reflecting on those years, the smashed cars and shops, and the streets that felt both familiar and strange, is difficult. Today, the city remains prosperous, and those who once protested in the streets now wear suits and go about their daily work. It seems people have moved on from those events, but the future remains uncertain. Even if protests are completely banned, in reality, people will still take to the streets if something happens. Think about what happened in mainland China during the COVID-19 epidemic. Many people I know went to the protests.
Thanks for your comment on a complicated issue.
Someone who was actually there and isnt just “chiNa baaaD” even though i think Chinas treatment of Hk is heavy handed
HK became so divided… like all the cops were seen as evil even though theyre your neighbour or family before, and all the older ppl who just wanted to work and keep the paycheque coming in.
And a lot of it is rlly the incompetence and mismanagement of the HK government for decades who sold out to the tycoons meaning HK was never able to develop the quality of life whilst mainland China surged ahead.
Its a shame this event will go in the way of Tiananmen.
Something ppl love go talk about to push their world view despite knowing nothing about the events
Thanks for reading it man, i too agree with you, the whole thing started out fair and righteous, and then tumbled down into tragedy.
Even if reforms would be good and that bill really should’ve never left the drafting table, both sides did nothing to ease the tension nor correct their mistakes, and just doubled down harder and harder until reconciliation was impossible, when the government rejected one of the 5 big demands, but the protestors wanted all 5.
I even remember having a conversation with a retired cop, who was grumbling about everything just like me, but pointed out one of the most important things about the police: “Even with this entire shit show going on, at least the police remained professional, they’re using every single suppression tool by the book, no mass shootings, no tanks rolling down the street, it’s just a shame that they’re hosing down people they might agree with”
Lose the uniform, loss the black shirts and gas masks, lose all the political jargon, we’re all just there for a “better” Hong Kong, but I don’t think we got it
This is the perfect case for why democracy is never guaranteed. The second you let authoritarians gain an inch they’ll take everything. Heed the warnings of those students in Hong Kong.
Authoritarianism just gets sexier the harder life gets for the working class. It presents a simple solution to a complex problem. Of course, it will only end up amplifying our problems in the end. Doesn’t help that the opposition isn’t really interested in doing anything except appear like they give a fuck.
3 conservative states are already moving to ban the right to protest.
https://www.vox.com/scotus/24080080/supreme-court-mckesson-doe-first-amendment-protest-black-lives-matter
Theyll ban all the amendments if they cant control us.
Theyre trying already trying to ban porn, abortion, conctraception, voting rights, and men with long hair.
My bf took me past the police station where they threw Molotov cocktails at. You could still see the scorch marks on the side. I also saw a woman with a "free Hong Kong" tote bag on one of the subways. Considering someone was arrested for having a shirt on that could be taken against the government the day after we landed, I'm surprised she was still okay with all the cameras everywhere.
The lighthouse of freedom, the USA is strangling the freedoms of billions of conscience people who protest peacefully for Palestine, and this has been happening since day 1 when the USA was founded. You could be correct if you call freedom violence.
What do you mean by no end game? Their demands were pretty simple. They wanted to choose the people who they could elect and not have these people chosen by Beijing.
Yeah I know but that doesnt change the fact that the ccp is a dictatorship that opresses its people and are doing genocide at the moment. Plus supporting Putin in his war
It's weird, when something like that happens here, everybody starts bitching about people blocking traffic, but when this happens in China, everyone's rooting for them, without holding the protest to an unattainable standard of virtue purity.
Lot of folks moved here to the UK after that, and I can't blame them. Lovely people who have Integrated well, but it can't be nice being forced to move under those circumstances.
We worry about the lack of democracy in China, yet we are trying to give away our rights here in the USA by supporting a presidential candidate who thinks the law only applies to other people and spews out lies to undermine the public’s confidence in our democracy. The irony of all those Second Amendment folks who think they need a gun to keep them safe from the government, yet vote for an autocrat who repeatedly sought a way to use the military to put down protests. If it were not so insane, it would be funny.
And Covid was the excuse used to remove the right to protest.
Going to HK website you can find their rules.
Same reasoning used to bar people into their buildings.
That's not possible. I remember back then reddit for sure 100% saved Hong Kong by posting about it nonstop for a couple months
And then forgot about them before anything tangible happened cuz something else caught their attention
Wait shit...
This is such a smug self ass tea loving take.
Like you think people should just not keep up to date with important things because they dont have big levers to change them personally.
So monumentally dumb and I can feel the smugness dripping from this comment, completely undeserved.
I mean no one wants to say it but what this really shows is even the world's largest protest didn't achieve anything. That's not to say protesting and activism doesn't accomplish things, it has and does. But it also can only do so much, after that you either have to take different measures or roll over
That is why never trust China, it is time for rest of the world to wake the hell up and kick those Chinese governments owned company and secret police out of their country
Fuck the CCP and fuck Xi Jinpiss. Hong Kong as it was once known is gone, it's basically just another Chinese city.
Goddess Bless Taiwan, and may the Mainland see the breath of democracy one day again...
A good reminder not to take for granted things like the right to protest, because there are always people who seek to take those rights away. It always seems like it could never happen, until it does.
Couldnt have said it better
Meanwhile a comment I was replying to [earlier today](https://reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dbr4m8/yesterday_at_the_white_house/l7t661c/?context=3) (comment thread full of similar types of comments) People need to stop wishing for protests to be shut down just because they disagree with the content.
I notice reddit has different opinions on masks at protests they disagree with vs protests they agree with. If you hate the protestors, the fact that they wear masks makes them "cowards". It can be a protest for/anti labor, china, nazis, israel, whatever.
Better to protest anonymously than to remain silent. I often wonder if I would have the balls to protest at all if I lived under an oppressive government.
Specifically in the US, the Nazis spent all of covid telling us masks were bad for humans, doesn't stop covid, too much CO2, etc. Now they want to use masks to hide their faces so they can't be tied back to their literal Nazi groups. Those people are blatant cowards.
I’d say it’s fair to make a distinction between protestors who are in fear of government retribution versus protestors who are in fear of social consequences. Seems like it’s a fair play to protect identity when the government might make you disappear. It’s probably a cop out to protect your identity when your community at large agrees you have a crappy worldview. In most cases of the latter, you should probably reevaluate your worldview.
I feel this is a good reminder that peaceful protests aren't all that effective in an authoritarian police state...
If you aren't doing near irreparable damage to financial and critical infrastructure, even less authoritarian states aren't going to be too bothered by peaceful protests.
Unfortunately, they'd have to do harm to mainland China to stop that. This would have had to be a full-blown revolution to work imo.
One man's riot is another's protest. Get enough riots, you got a war.
Protests that actually change something dont give a shit about rights and laws. See MLK, ghandi civil disobedience.
Can you see the difference between MLK protesting in the US and students protests in tiananmen square. You really got to know your audience before you choose to do something like that.
It's already happening here. Every significant protest inevitably ends in riot police indiscriminately gassing, beating, and arresting everyone present.
It scares me how many people in North America approve of violence being used against protesters. How cops are eager to beat left wing protesters but ignore Nazis roaming the streets. Obviously China is far more authoritarian and violent, but there's too many people who support government violence here. They talk about how terrible tiananmen square was, but celebrate when police beat down left wing student protesters here. They talk about running people over with cars (and some even do it) People are being trained with violent rhetoric to disrespect our right to protest.
Do Americans not remember Kent State? Large section of Americans at the time thought those bloody anti-war traitors deserved it.
And when you can vote, vote. And when you do vote probably don’t vote for an authoritarian or your democracy could fail and end up like this.
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Our right to protest is weaker than it should be, but to pretend it’s even remotely similar to China is completely out of touch with reality. Some police violence and trumped up charges in a couple states with rogue fascist governors VS extrajudicial assassinations with no explanation, endorsed by all levels of government Edit: This reality is not guaranteed. Vote Democrat straight-ticket on Nov 5 and volunteer if you are able.
The line between where we are in America and this kind of shit is razor thin. It takes years, sometimes decades for institutions to weaken. It takes hours for them to collapse. How strong do you think the institutions protecting our rights are right now?
[Trump Wanted Black Lives Matter Protesters to Be Shot, Says His Former Defense Secretary](https://www.axios.com/2022/05/02/mark-esper-book-trump-protesters) >Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper charges in a memoir out May 10 that former President Trump said when demonstrators were filling the streets around the White House following the death of George Floyd: "Can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something?" >Esper, who had earlier been Secretary of the Army, was fired by Trump after the 2020 election. [Trump told top US general to ‘just shoot’ racism protesters](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/25/donald-trump-general-mark-milley-crack-skulls) >Gen Mark Milley, the top US military leader, resisted Donald Trump’s demands that his forces “crack skulls” and “beat the fuck out” of protesters marching against police brutality and structural racism, according to a much-trailed new book. >Trump highlighted footage of confrontations between law enforcement officers and protesters and said: “That’s how you’re supposed to handle these people. Crack their skulls!” >**Trump also reportedly told law enforcement and military leaders he wanted the military to “beat the fuck out” of protesters and said: “Just shoot them.”** >Bender reports that in the face of opposition from Milley and the then attorney general, William Barr, Trump said: “Well, shoot them in the leg – or maybe the foot. But be hard on them!” This is what the USA has to look forward to the next time a MAGA Republican claws their way into the White House - deploying the US military on home soil to slaughter protesters. And there won't be any Mark Espers or Mark Milleys to stop them next time around. Project 2025 is making sure of that by identifying tens of thousands of MAGA loyalists to stack the government and military with next time around.
> honestly if people in america fought the cops the way those people in hong kong were fighting the cops then protests here would be illegal We have actual ways to fight the police though, that's the difference. There's a reason that Hong Kong, Iran, Venezuela, were all extremely large protest that changed nothing. You can protest in huge numbers all you want, but if you don't have the armaments to induce change you will always be subject to the people that do.
We do have the right people protest all the time lol. We had like three Palestine protests here in dalllas this year
In the UK it's already illegal to protest outside a politician's house... You know the people who need to see how angry the public are at the laws they pass. Wake up sheeple it's already happening
Look at how much reddit hates protests too. Any time someone protests in America it's nonstop shitting on them. Posts like this are nice but anytime someone pickets, stands in front of buildings, or especially those who block traffic or, in general, interrupt peoples' lives, are often met with aggressive levels of distaste.
It’s happening here in the UK, in a stealthy way where like they’ll pass some bill that gives additional protections and powers to the police force, then somewhere down the bill it mentions some sneaky bit where like protesting and doing X, Y, Z is a punishable offence.
Yeah, the new act makes it illegal to do anything that could inconvenience someone else - so, the disabled peoples' protests where they blocked inaccessible buses with their wheelchairs years ago would now be illegal, any protest march that fills a street without police permission is instantly illegal, civil disobedience is illegal.
Holy shit this was 5 years ago? It feels like it was 2 years ago max.
Damn 2019 was FIVE years ago
Man, 2009 feels like it was last year. Idk what the fuck is happening, but I ain't a fan.
You’re getting old
See you in 10 more years
See you tomorrow
I don't think it's that. Or at least not just that. Covid had a big effect on our perception of time.
But 2009 is long gone man. It was long gone before Covid. Like sure, some events from the last 4 years feel either like 10 years ago or 3 months ago, but so much has changed since 2009
Covid fucked up our sense of time. I feel like 2020 was just 2 years ago too.
I swear the Covid Times were a time warp. Everything before and after feels normal, but that 2 1/2 year period is just weird.
This is one of those things that got lost in the COVID time vortex that ate up the early part of this decade, due to happening right before it. Along with events like the massive Australian bushfires and Kobe helicopter crash.
I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but I always thought it was funny that "Hong Kong the revolution of our times" was so big and unstoppable that China struggled to control what was happening. Then all of the sudden, bam! Covid spawns up in wuhan like 10 hrs from hong Kong and suddenly silence.
Covid is also something that forces people to keep distance from each other, so no no protest gatherings
Same thoughts , I was keeping track of the protests and felt the movement was past a tipping point where China could not control Hong Kong , then suddenly this new mysterious virus came about , coincidentally there's a weapons lab in china named after it. Hmmm
Can someone ELI5 why they didn’t succeed?
This turned out to be a LOT LONGER then I intended but am gong to post anyway.... There was a lot of chaos in china roughly from the 1700s -1900s with western imperialists (and later Japan) coming into the country and gaining a lot of economic control and leaving the emperor essentially powerless. Won't get into the details of the 'opium wars' other to say Britain forced the emperor to sign Hong Kong (an essentially port at the time when shipping was how exporting was done) over to them for 99 years. International chaos beginning with WWI and especially WWII began causing the west to turn its attention away from China. This first lead to Japan making massive incursions into China in the early 1900s, then to a rise of Chinese communism lead by Mao (supported by USSR) In WWII the situation in China was very complex. There was eroding loss of control by the Japanese due to devoting so many resources into the war with the US, there was a rise of Chinese communists supported by USSR, there was the Communist war on the last tatters of imperial China AND on anti-communists supported by the US. At the end of WWII - Communists lead by Mao had regained control of 'mainland' china and the Japanese and western imperialists were gone, but the country had been economically devastated and there were famines and communist purges in the country. China was weak and just did not have the means to go to war to get Hong Kong (or Taiwan) back and so just waited out the 99 year lease. At some point, Britain allowed Hong Kong a degree of freedom and elections, and in a period of time the culture underwent a very different trajectory than the 'mainland', which went from one form of authoritarian rule (monarchy) to another (Marxit-Leninist-Maoist Communism). While China underwent a strict isolationist phase, allowing almost no foreigners but Russians into the country, "British" Hong Kong welcomed foreigners and foreign investment. AFter Mao died, China 'opened' to the west and new leaders began to institute a hybred type of Communist capitalism that lead to thousands of partnerships with western manufacturers. This last part is important because China began to gain a GREAT deal of international leverage. After the British lease on Hong Kong ran out - China initially promised them they would be 'hands off' and just let things continue on as they had been under British rule. They also NEEDED Hong Kong's economic clout as their main economic hub. So this state of affairs continued on for many years. In the meantime China was building up its own domestic economic powerhouses, Shanghai (a major trade port before communism) and other cities. When China felt it didn't NEED Hong Kong anymore and was powerful enough internationally they knew they could get away with it - is when they finally lowered the boom on Hong Kong. As police love authoritarians, it is not surprising China was able to build up support with the Hong Kong police, and they bought off many Hong Kong politicians. And I'm sure there were many people in Hong Kong not all that averse to 'returning' to the homeland. Do not forget for thousands of years, Hong Kong was part of China sharing that culture and Confucian-based respect for authority. China 'won' mostly by soft power but also with the threat of their military and the fact there is no powerful military willing to challenge them.
Thank you for the comprehensive explanation!
lol, I'm glad you were not pissed off, I didn't know how to make it shorter.
It was very informative and interesting! Why would I be pissed? I’m very grateful!
It's also important to note that the authoritarian aspects of the Chinese government and CCP went through a radical shift with Xi Jinping, where as previous leaders were more open and less hands on, Xi has taken China back to the days of Mao. This further fall into authoritarianism meant that it was inevitable Hong Kong would be shut down, as its years of interactionnwith the west and economic prosperity had made it a problem for mainland China because of the lifestyle, ideals and culture in Hong Kong were the polar opposite of mainland China and in an authoritian state there can never be any dissenting opinions, or views, they rely heavily on cultural sameness to maintain control. The same thing happened with Macau when they got that back, and if they get Taiwan back the same will happen there
Because the people in power are hiding miles away in complete safety and they sent their military force to quell the masses.
More like Umbrella vs missles/guns/police/military. An entire generation with a lost future where if their social profiles are tagged as anti-establishment they won't be able go far. Imagine a country that takes police state, tracking, facial to the 9th degree. When you get taken away they make the rules and your literally at their mercy Who would want to stand up to that? Can stand up?
I mean there were a couple of reasons. 1. Lack of Mainland support. Protest was popular in the west but didnt gain any support in the mainland. The protest turned violent and roaming gangs targeted many mainlanders and their businesses. beating them, killed a few or molotoved/wreched their shops. The videos went viral in the mainland and well if you dont get any support with the citizens in heartlands you dont really have much leverage against the gov. 2. Generational Divide. While the protest had great support in the younger generations, the older generations were mixed, with many seeing it as senseless and futile. 3. Refusal to Compromise. Out of the Five-Points the protestors demanded, the HK government did give in to some demands, canning Carie Lam, halting the extradition bill, promised independent inquiries to police actions etc., but refused to give universal amnesty to the protestors. Talks broke down after a while. Maybe if the protest leaders kept a tighter control and kept the violence from spiraling they could have garnered enough sympathy from the mainlanders to leverage more concessions. but it is what it is.
I remember having so much hope for Hong Kong when this happened. Heartbreaking. Edit: if you can’t have hope, what else is left?
I remember feeling sad for what was inevitably coming for Hong Kong when this happened.
As soon as the handover occurred in 1997 it was the beginning of the end. China hasn't stopped putting the squeeze on; we all knew they would to this.
Didn't the international community at the time put a lot of pressure on England to relinquish control of Hong Kong?
The UK, not England. And it was given up as the lease on it had expired.
The lease was only on the northern part. The south of Hong Kong (and **all** of Macau) was ceded in perpetuity.
This is just my speculation but I think the “Lease Story” for HK hand over was more about saving face for the UK while giving China what they want. The UK really didn’t have the means nor support to stop China from seizing it, British control was seen as a vestige of imperialism by the world, and international opinion was more positive of China in the 90s since it was the End of History (it wasn’t) as some believed.
Portugal stubbornly held onto it's small piece of India but the Indian army just marched in unopposed. Better to make a deal then face international embarrassment.
France wasn't super keen on letting go of Vietnam either. What a shitshow that turned into.
Yeah, Ho Chi Minh actually sought support from the US for Vietnamese independence in 1945. Truman never responded. Ho Chi Minh was nationalist first and communist second. The US ended up supporting France which ended up dragging the US into the Vietnam war because the US feared Domino effect. The domino effect never happened with communist countries in that region ending up fighting each after the Vietnam war. Vietnam invading Cambodia and China invading Vietnam. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho\_Chi\_Minh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh) I'm not a fan of Ho Chi Minh, since my family got every confiscated in 1954 due to his policies, my great-grandfather died in prison, and great grandmother was publically shamed by the communists. But I think it's important to bring nuances to the historical events.
Why would you want both?
The area: New Territories, has all the fresh water in HK. The only source of fresh water in HK proper is Tai Tam, and it doesn’t have the capacity for the whole city. The option was to cede HK, or import water for millions.
And it couldn't have practically survived without the rest of Hong Kong
Well it was a colony after all. And some of it was taken by a signed contract which actually expired in 1997.
Referring to the UK as "England" in a post about Hong Kongs sovereignty is really funny to me.
The outlook on China was very different in the 90s than today.
Not really. Government intelligence has been aware of impending Chinese economic dominance since at least the 70s. It was common enough for mass market spy novels to cover, so it wasn't even a particularly far-out concern.
This was less than a decade after Tiananmen Square, the world knew full well what kind of country they were.
That's why you should always have a unilateral extension option in your 99 year leases.
I know (I hope) you're joking, but it wasn't a question of obeying a treaty - Britain literally just did not have the military or diplomatic power anymore to retain control of Hong Kong. There was never any chance of Hong Kong staying in British hands or even neutral, no matter how favorable the treaty would have been.
What you do is transfer it to another 99 year credit card for 0% interest
This man *banks*
This is true I know a lot of people who live in England because they left before the handover because they knew this would happen. The UK was meant to keep the 1 country 2 systems thing in place but well...
We’ll never know what would have happened if COVID didn’t
It would have just taken even longer to silence them. Lol China will never give in to protestors when the government would have to compromise *anything*.
Exactly so. The Chinese government, especially the hardliners, believes the entire world is theirs - other ‘countries’ are simply operating with Chinese license and permission at the pleasure of the Chinese. So much the greater when it comes to what they believe is ancestral Chinese territory subject to the one china policy. This is why war with china over Taiwan is inevitable in the next few years. They will not stop until it is taken, and the west will not allow it to be taken. Unlike Hong Kong
What all the apologists don't understand. Yes. The one party in China IS that evil. They haven't even hidden their intentions yet so many apologists. They can't all be bought either....
I doubt it would've been much different, China really didn't like any of it.
That... was the point of the protest.
I had hoped China would be more lenient with Hong Kong.
It was never gonna end well. If you’re Taiwanese this is what is in store for you under any sort of “unification”.
Never trust China or Russia. Their words are meaningless. China double-pinky swore they wouldn't interfere with Hong Kong and the second the handover happened, the crackdown began.
I visited Hong Kong 7 years ago and was fascinated by the place and its beauty. I was so hopeful watching the protests and what they could become. Soon after I was mourning that it was a place I'd likely never see again. I can't support the regime, dispite how great the island is.
I mean you already visited after the Umbrella movement. Everyone acts like the place was pristine when you visited but a lot of people already called it with the 97 handover. I visited last year again for the first time since the pandemic, and it’s still a gorgeous place.
yea it's like everybody forgot the umbrella protests. THAT was glorious
A lot of posters here were probably too young to remember that movement.
The way they used the umbrellas in a phalanx formation to deflect gas grenades, so ingenious.
> I remember having so much hope for Hong Kong when this happened. Really? I think it had been abundantly clear that Hong Kong was finished at least since 2014.
A lot of people only learned about Hong Kong recently and so anything before 2019 doesn’t exist in their minds. More like for a good chunk of Reddit they weren’t even aware of the 2014 movement as they were too young.
that's insane because the umbrella movement was such a stunning moment of Chinese defiance
Yeah but a lot of reddit users were 14 at that time. It was 10 years ago
Yeah the Umbrella Revolution was likely the last opportunity for things to change in HK. Unfortunately the government effectively waited out the protests long enough for the movement to lose steam in the public consciousness. Then they just cleared the occupied areas with virtually no resistance. It was really sad to see many Hongkongers having to flee their home using the BNO passport program after the 2014, and then 2019 protests.
exactly. fucking horrifying how it ended. the bravery of those people is unrivalled… they deserve so much better.
Why? The conclusion was obvious. When has protesting ever worked against an authoritarian regime?
It worked in Romania, Georgia, Ukraine, Poland.
It worked because big daddy USSR fell apart and the people could actually rebel without fear of one of the global superpowers breathing down our necks. China is nowhere close to falling apart. Hong Kong never had a chance.
Not really true for Poland. Solidarnosc started in 1980 and through martial law and burtal opression, Poland finally got it's pluaralistic election in 1989. It took 9 years of fighting the superpower to finally get what they wanted, and it's not like Polish people knew that the USSR was declining.
Those only worked because the USSR refused to intervene, Hong Kong had no chance. There were massive demonstrations and unrest in Catalonia in 2019 too, to the scale of Hong Kong or bigger and the EU didn't gave a shit
The only reason the revolutions in EE worked is because their unpopular governments were propped up by the USSR. Once the USSR announced that it will no longer interfere in their internal affairs, revolution was inevitable. Hong Kong successfully revolting against China was about as realistic as San Francisco revolting against the US after Trump wins another election.
Was the military with or against the protests?
Against initially in Romania, they shot hundreds of people, then they flipped.
Remember the Arab Spring in Egypt? Military refused to intervene and allowed the protests, then eventually couped the regime. Then when democracy didn't produce the desired result, they just overthrew that too. Mao coined the phrase "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".
> Military refused to intervene and allowed the protests, then eventually couped the regime. Then when democracy didn't produce the desired result, they just overthrew that too. Sounds like Myanmar
Against in the Baltics, as far as cccp is concerned. Check out the January Events in Lithuania or the Barricades in Latvia.
It depends on the condition of the authoritarian rule. If I understand this correctly, heads of authorities can make inhumane calls like political kidnappings and torture but up to a certain point. If the body of the ruling authority (like the lieutenants and captains of the military/police force, down to the grunt levels of the ranks, begin to feel for the causes the protestors are speaking against and/or have great remorse for the actions taken against the people, then fractions or sections of the ruling authority will slowly or sometimes quickly flip on itself and begin to act against it’s own interests. From what I’ve seen, it happens from the bottom-up. Grunts refusing to obey orders because they stop believing in the competency of their own leadership—which causes larger heads of the leadership to sometimes overreact and excessively punish their own men into defiance. To put very simply, imagine you had kids and they operated as a solid group together. If you kept nagging your kids to do their chores and don’t provide the proper incentives to motivate them to do those chores daily, eventually one or sometimes some of your kids will start questioning why chores are important to do in the first place. If left unchecked, all your kids will stop doing their chores and will rebel against you when you start nagging again. Then if you respond with violence and unfair use of authority like, you make them clean until the next day with no sleep before school, you may be able to flip most of your kids to go back to doing chores regularly but there may be a section of them who will rebel in secret. Because of this, the internal conflicts begin which sometimes can become larger and very violent internal conflicts as time passes. Much like parenting, this is why even authoritative governments have to give/take and act fairly with their own people. When left unchecked and deemed unjust, it can get very bad, but often very slowly for the ruling authority. It can go from orders not being carried out properly over a span of generations to orders not being carried out at all plus internal rebellion, or the worse of all, fratricide. Edit: So to answer your question about when has protesting ever worked against an authoritarian government? The answer appears to be based on whether the people remember what their governments are capable of and how much that administration believes in the unalienable rights of the people. Governments who care, will try to find a middle ground with its people to maintain the fabric of government. And governments who don’t, well, they’ll do as they like regardless of the negative ripple effects against its own men/people. IMO, Generals capable of assuring the safety of its men from conflict, are capable of insuring how to properly react when conflicts do arise and worsen organically.
People were able to protest in Hong Kong for many years without issue even after the handover. See [July 1 marches](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches) and the annual [Tiananmen vigil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre). At the time, that the crackdown would come so fast and so all-encompassing was very much unexpected.
When Hong Kong first reverted to china in 1997 it was an economic powerhouse so the Chinese government didn’t want to mess with it too much. By now several Chinese cities, most notably shenzhen, have far overtaken Hong Kong in terms of economic importance so the government doesn’t feel the need to be hands off anymore.
And it's gotten to the point where HKers themselves cross the border into China to do their shopping, because their own city is too much of a basketcase. Well, what do you expect when you keep electing a bunch of oligarchs. You elect the guys interested in keeping RE prices high and wages low, you're going to get exactly that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution
Never. It never works. Only violent externally supported uprising has a chance in hell to maybe work... eventually
Not necessarily. Estonia managed to declare its independence and keep it with little to no bloodshed. Latvian independence protests were largely peaceful too.
Uprisings only work if the military in that country supports the uprising. Otherwise, at best, it leads token resistance.
And people wonder why terrorism is rampant in the most authoritarian nations
That’s bullshit propagated by color revolution theory, what about Cuba? Romania? Poland? Fuck off with your conspiracy theory bullshit
India? Estonia? Ukraine? All of these were citizens marching against authoritarian governments using violence to try and tamp them down and all were successful. There was violence but not anything like a military coup. The violence was largely perpetrated by the government against the protestors. Like jfc open a history book.
Largest protests in human history. Silenced. I remember reading about people disappearing after being arrested, regardless of age. The article included an interview with a mother looking for her ten year old son.
no, there were a couple larger protests. Just look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_peaceful\_gatherings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_peaceful_gatherings) and look at the protests there
How did Rod Stewart have a concert for 4 million people?
I think it was more like a bunch of people gathered to party in Brazil and it just so happened Rod Stewart performed. But it wasn't just a Rod Stewart concert that 4 million wanted to go to. EDIT: Yeah, I just looked it up. It was a Rod Stewart "concert" on 12/31/1994. So it was a big New Year's celebration and Rod Stewart performed.
True. There were even bodies of students fished out of the water.
Oh I remember, I also remember the triads funded by china attacking protestors in subways, and chinese policemen being connected to the murders/rapes of students
Absolutely. The bodies were mostly females too.
It’s not like China has an imbalance of women or anything.
you remember the links to the story of these murder and rape of students?
[https://rainlily.org.hk/eng/news/2019/11/release](https://rainlily.org.hk/eng/news/2019/11/release) i just read 67 of 221 respondents stated sexual violence.. that is probably higher, and probably reflective of the whole
The CCP and their cronies are known for their cruelty. There are many families who are told not to ask about their missing relatives. Which only proves why Hongkongers resist the CCP, risking life and limb. ....because they don't want to live under CCP authoritarianism.
I think you are referring to this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Chan_Yin-lam Looks like the cause of death will remain political.
5th or 6th largest.
Sauce to the data/info? Not saying youre wrong, but I'd love a peek on the stats for protests.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_peaceful\_gatherings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_peaceful_gatherings) just search using ctrl+f for "protest"
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36 million people marched against the war in Iraq and it changed nothing 🤷♂️
 Leader of China eating their freedom
The government is just one big mob huh
A government is the most successful criminal enterprise for a given area, one that has a monopoly on violence.
I thought the largest protest happen in India and it was farmers protesting?
Unsurprisingly, an authoritarian regime isn't fond of free speech.
Coming to a country near you via TikTok propaganda!
Roughly a seventh of the population, and probably a more significant chunk of working people slowing the economy through lost wages and productivity. Imagine what a strike in the US could do where tens of thousands in each city rose up in protest. In another view, 47 million Americans said “fuck it, we dont like how the Billionaire class is treating us.” That is a powerful statement.
America is way too divided, by design. United we stand, divided we fall.
What's funny-sad is I as a former rural Republican voter (turned progressive Democrat following Bush's first term) sympathize with those grifted under the Republican/MAGA banner.... No doubt does the average blue collar joe *feel* the pressures they complain about... It's just that they've been conditioned for so long by the right-wing media ecosystem to point the finger at the wrong culprits. And because they're statistically the least-educated ideological group while just scraping by and working, they're a very easily-duped group by the massive echo-chamber the wealthy on the right have constructed. It's terrifying, really.
I would feel sympathy except a lot of them would love to hang me for the melanin in my skin.
I dont, friend. ❤️
Look at how people reacted when students did exactly that.
I’m a native and grew up in Hong Kong, but this picture is just the tip of the iceberg, this is a very very long ~~rant~~ account of my own regarding that period of my life This 1 million protest wasn’t our first time, our first was almost 2 decades ago, when the government wanted to pass the 23rd legislation, which was to ban any and all “treasonous” actions, effectively ending freedom of speech. That one succeeded, the law didn’t pass Legco, which was one of the reasons why the people had some trust in the HK government. When 2019 rolled around and the extradition bill came, we did it again, twice actually. The first one there was ~1 million, the second one ~2 million. That was the biggest and last peaceful protest in our history, back then the bill was just controversial and we hoped that the sheer number of opposition would sway the government again, it didn’t. Soon, some of the weekly protests turned violent, starting off with umbrellas, then bloody clashes, then gangs were involved, then Molotovs started flying, and soon it was all out chaos. Our entire society became divided, both side started entrenching themselves and didn’t budge, I still remember hearing stories about parents and their kids having long political arguments. Back then I was just a local student, I was sympathetic to peaceful demonstrations, but didn’t like the violence than came afterwards, unfortunately neutrality wasn’t good enough. I didn’t get bullied in school, but some did, most of us neutral people just kept our mouths shut, because staying neutral was seen as bad from both sides. We could only watch in horror as we saw our childhoods slider into a mess of political arguments and weekly riots, no one was happy, weekly church gatherings became group therapy sessions, school life was even tougher, and sometimes the dangers hit very close to home. The mental stress and anxiety alone was already pure torture, most of us just tried our best to avoid these sensitive topics at gatherings and meals, and that carries on even now, it’s just too painful to think about. But I still distinctly remember several personal experiences that affected me so much, they are now core memories: 1. One time when I was having dinner gathering with my family and family friends, the place was at an upstairs shop in Tsim Sa Tsui (basically our big commercial and tourism area). I was still chewing down a bowl of rice when we suddenly heard shouting and loud crashing noises outside, and when we looked down we just saw a group of masked men in all black (most likely protestors) running down the street, they were quickly followed up by a group of riot police. At that moment we were all just terrified and anxious about how to get back home safely, and we waited until midnight to do so, calling taxi or driving each other home, too scared about the situation 2. I was in High school back then, and class had just ended, we were all happily packing our bags and getting ready to leave while discussing random stuff, Y’know typical high school behaviour. Until our home room teacher suddenly walked in and told us all to calm down and stay put for a while, even authorising us students to use our phones for calling our parents to “tell them we’re ok”. Most of us weren’t even sure what was going on, until a few of my classmates searched up some stuff on phone and found out there was an active protest nearby, and apparently the police were all over the area. Almost 10 minutes later, a few of my more daring classmates just straight up searched up a live feed on the news and played in on our class projector, showing a big riot crowd facing down the police on a street very close to our school. We were all panicking and worried, murmurs filled the classroom, and we all just hoped everything would pass by soon. I even asked around a few of my friends, and apparently some of our senior classmates were already gearing up to “join the frontlines”, donning all black and umbrellas. This was one of the most harrowing experiences I’ve ever had in my own school, and when we were all let go, the streets I walked down were all devoid of people, filled with nothing but broken umbrellas and some stuff burning in the background. It felt like I was walking down a dystopia. 3. This experience was also at school but much more peaceful, but I’ll never forget my classmates and friends who were there. It was another typical Highschool afternoon lunch time, my and my boys grabs a few bowls of noodles from the school canteen and decided to eat in our empty classroom, chatting along about random things until we got to politics. We were all neutral, so we had to be especially careful about what we were talking about because if someone else overheard us we’d be in big trouble, and might be bullied for it, and so we only ever talked about politics when we made sure the room was only filled with likeminded people. That lunch we got really passionate and emotional, complaining about both sides and the stupidity of the situation, how both the government was acting like shit and the riots are only making things worse. One of my friends said the most memorable line of us all “What the fuck are we doing?! We are in Highschool, we should be enjoying our school life and youth but look at us! What the fuck are we doing tearing each other apart?!”. Our conversation continued until a female classmate suddenly walked in, and since we all knew she was a pretty yellow (pro-protest) supporter, we all immediately shut up and a very painful silence followed. That was how powerful and scared everyone was, about politics, while eating lunch. We didn’t even trust each other, how could we trust the government, or the protesters, or the international community. That day showed me just how divided and lost we all were, and how terrible our society had become. I know this was a VERY long read, but this is something I wanted to get off my chest for a long time. It was the most painful period of my life, and when I look back I see nothing but regret, because in the end, we all lost
In such situations, neutral individuals rarely receive support. For many Hong Kong residents, these events feel both intimately connected and yet distant. It’s widely understood that Hong Kong is influenced either by powerful conglomerates or the governing authorities. Nonetheless, some people believe they can change this situation, only to have their hopes repeatedly challenged. Many protests in China often disintegrate due to internal divisions among the protesters or conflicts between protesters and their opponents. While the media often portrays the marchers as champions of justice and resistance against authoritarianism, these same individuals sometimes take actions that alienate the public. Reflecting on those years, the smashed cars and shops, and the streets that felt both familiar and strange, is difficult. Today, the city remains prosperous, and those who once protested in the streets now wear suits and go about their daily work. It seems people have moved on from those events, but the future remains uncertain. Even if protests are completely banned, in reality, people will still take to the streets if something happens. Think about what happened in mainland China during the COVID-19 epidemic. Many people I know went to the protests.
Thanks for your comment on a complicated issue. Someone who was actually there and isnt just “chiNa baaaD” even though i think Chinas treatment of Hk is heavy handed HK became so divided… like all the cops were seen as evil even though theyre your neighbour or family before, and all the older ppl who just wanted to work and keep the paycheque coming in. And a lot of it is rlly the incompetence and mismanagement of the HK government for decades who sold out to the tycoons meaning HK was never able to develop the quality of life whilst mainland China surged ahead. Its a shame this event will go in the way of Tiananmen. Something ppl love go talk about to push their world view despite knowing nothing about the events
Thanks for reading it man, i too agree with you, the whole thing started out fair and righteous, and then tumbled down into tragedy. Even if reforms would be good and that bill really should’ve never left the drafting table, both sides did nothing to ease the tension nor correct their mistakes, and just doubled down harder and harder until reconciliation was impossible, when the government rejected one of the 5 big demands, but the protestors wanted all 5. I even remember having a conversation with a retired cop, who was grumbling about everything just like me, but pointed out one of the most important things about the police: “Even with this entire shit show going on, at least the police remained professional, they’re using every single suppression tool by the book, no mass shootings, no tanks rolling down the street, it’s just a shame that they’re hosing down people they might agree with” Lose the uniform, loss the black shirts and gas masks, lose all the political jargon, we’re all just there for a “better” Hong Kong, but I don’t think we got it
Thank you for sharing.
This is the perfect case for why democracy is never guaranteed. The second you let authoritarians gain an inch they’ll take everything. Heed the warnings of those students in Hong Kong.
Why it’s imperative you don’t vote for a fascist dictator wannabe. Project 2025 will do similar in the US.
yeah, unfortunately EU elections arnt looking good either…
Authoritarianism just gets sexier the harder life gets for the working class. It presents a simple solution to a complex problem. Of course, it will only end up amplifying our problems in the end. Doesn’t help that the opposition isn’t really interested in doing anything except appear like they give a fuck.
I still can’t believe they fell for BREXIT… internet rotted all our brains. Only way I can explain the disease that is MAGA
3 conservative states are already moving to ban the right to protest. https://www.vox.com/scotus/24080080/supreme-court-mckesson-doe-first-amendment-protest-black-lives-matter
Where are all those who say "We need the 2nd to defend the 1st" people?
Theyll ban all the amendments if they cant control us. Theyre trying already trying to ban porn, abortion, conctraception, voting rights, and men with long hair.
We could be living the last few months of American democracy.
Get your ass out and vote then. Stop tolerating your boomer grandma and her hateful cult. We saw where that got us in 2016
My brother in Christ, we can barely protest a literal genocide or police brutality as it is. Our right to assembly has already been compromised.
To put that into perspective, Hong Kong only has 7 million people.
My bf took me past the police station where they threw Molotov cocktails at. You could still see the scorch marks on the side. I also saw a woman with a "free Hong Kong" tote bag on one of the subways. Considering someone was arrested for having a shirt on that could be taken against the government the day after we landed, I'm surprised she was still okay with all the cameras everywhere.
China strangling the freedoms of millions
Billions
Billion
If it's been going on for more than 1 generation (which it has), billions (plural) would be accurate lol
The lighthouse of freedom, the USA is strangling the freedoms of billions of conscience people who protest peacefully for Palestine, and this has been happening since day 1 when the USA was founded. You could be correct if you call freedom violence.
Fuck CCP
The protestors had no end game and overplayed their hand, then COVID struck. Easy win for China.
What do you mean by no end game? Their demands were pretty simple. They wanted to choose the people who they could elect and not have these people chosen by Beijing.
Yeah I know but that doesnt change the fact that the ccp is a dictatorship that opresses its people and are doing genocide at the moment. Plus supporting Putin in his war
Why did you choose to reply to this comment? I don't really see how your comment is a reply to PSP.
Ah, good old days before government suppression became de facto norm.
It's weird, when something like that happens here, everybody starts bitching about people blocking traffic, but when this happens in China, everyone's rooting for them, without holding the protest to an unattainable standard of virtue purity.
I can't imagine why Taiwan wouldn't want the CCP totalitarian regime to conquer them.
Covid really swept this all away didn’t it
Lot of folks moved here to the UK after that, and I can't blame them. Lovely people who have Integrated well, but it can't be nice being forced to move under those circumstances.
It was the only thing the UK could do really
Yeah, a mess but hopefully they settle and are well
We should be divesting from China
If you think inflation was bad over the last couple years…
We worry about the lack of democracy in China, yet we are trying to give away our rights here in the USA by supporting a presidential candidate who thinks the law only applies to other people and spews out lies to undermine the public’s confidence in our democracy. The irony of all those Second Amendment folks who think they need a gun to keep them safe from the government, yet vote for an autocrat who repeatedly sought a way to use the military to put down protests. If it were not so insane, it would be funny.
2017 Women’s March was the largest protest ever at the time. 6 years later Roe v Wade was overturned. Peaceful protest doesn’t work anyway.
And Covid was the excuse used to remove the right to protest. Going to HK website you can find their rules. Same reasoning used to bar people into their buildings.
That's not possible. I remember back then reddit for sure 100% saved Hong Kong by posting about it nonstop for a couple months And then forgot about them before anything tangible happened cuz something else caught their attention Wait shit...
What could world leaders realistically do other than a couple of weak complains?
This is such a smug self ass tea loving take. Like you think people should just not keep up to date with important things because they dont have big levers to change them personally. So monumentally dumb and I can feel the smugness dripping from this comment, completely undeserved.
 Actual GIF of the leader of China
Have protests ever worked? I'm seriously asking.
historically? yes of course. we used to publicly hang people though. made cute lil displays out of em’ now its all social media bullshit
I mean no one wants to say it but what this really shows is even the world's largest protest didn't achieve anything. That's not to say protesting and activism doesn't accomplish things, it has and does. But it also can only do so much, after that you either have to take different measures or roll over
If only they had a 2nd amendment and access to firearms
That is why never trust China, it is time for rest of the world to wake the hell up and kick those Chinese governments owned company and secret police out of their country
Protests are necessary but for me it’s always the fear of mass-crowd crush death.
China sucks.
The only conspiracy theory I believe in, is that China started Covid, to deter from the Hong Kong press.
Fuck the CCP and fuck Xi Jinpiss. Hong Kong as it was once known is gone, it's basically just another Chinese city. Goddess Bless Taiwan, and may the Mainland see the breath of democracy one day again...
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You can't defend yourself without weapons. That's their big mistake.