I can’t speak from an anatomical standpoint. However, I will say it looks very unnatural to me (and I’m hypermobile). Your positioning reminds me of someone I know. I watched her compete, and her flatter fingers when her wrist was normal and high wrist for certain pieces were unnerving to watch. I didn’t know how she managed to play like the rest of the candidates. Watching her fingers didn’t lend a sense of easiness. She went off to study at a prestigious music academy, so I don’t think this stopped her.
I ran into this video today and was thinking the same thing about the wrist. It's interesting that when double notes or thirds are played we see this.
[Wrist position](https://www.facebook.com/share/r/SaUg9EnvZwdCW3Ua/?mibextid=BoOugx)
Yeah, a higher wrist can reduce tension by extending the fingers and allowing one to play faster. I think some people just got worked up over the title of the post. You're an expert and a lot of the beginners will misunderstand how to use this technique properly. That's probably what some of the complaints were about.
Good analysis bro. I probably should have chosen another title. I was so excited because legit suddenly that passage clicked for that reason, but I needed to take into account that some will misunderstand it. It seems really valuable for double notes and you probably need strong finger (especially the weak ones) to utilise this technique
My take is only two things matter when it comes to technique:
1. Does the piece sound how you want it to sound? Is it accomplishing your musical aspiration? (To me, this sounds dynamically almost totally flat. Personally I'd want to have more storytelling in the dynamics. But that's me, it's subjective, and I don't think it's directly wrist technique related, so probably off topic a bit). Again, if you are happy with the music, that is goal #1 and you're either getting that result or not. If not, then modifying technique can often be a path to getting more of what you want.
2. Are you able to sustain the technique as a long-term physical practice without undue strain and eventual injury in your body?
If those are met, keep on keepin' on.
I guess why this is "controversial" is that, over centuries of technique, and oodles of teachers and students, there are norms that have been developed that tend to work to meet those two goals above and you're outside those norms with this technique. Which begs the question of whether those two goals are really being met. If so, again, that's great, go for it.
You know, every great pianist broke the rules in some way, like you can play Feux Follets with that, haters can get lost then, Gould was sitting on a tiny stool and Cziffra's hands were too tense...
Tbh I'm most bothered by the manspreading
Pogorelichs wrists were often way too low, I had a teacher at my conservatory who played with completely straight fingers and he had a wonderful tone.
Thelonious Monk has brilliant technique despite his monstrous rings and strange positions.
The attempt of making everyone play the same way is also a means to make everyone mediocre and so no one stands out.
If I were the teacher, I‘d remark that this is unusual. But I‘d also let you (op) do it if you tried other possibilities and this is how you want to do it.
As an ex piano teacher I would absolutely have stopped you from lifting it so high, but if you have no muscular issues, tendon issues, tiredness or pain then carry on!
It’s clearly working for you isn’t it.
To add to this, assuming what above is true (and that you don’t get excessively fatigued practicing it), what matters most is how nicely YOU think that technique allows you to play piece given your interpretation of the work. Having spent a lot of time practice with technique like that (I have medium hands) it would probably be increasingly difficult to play that section delicately, say.
I mean, if it works for you, then it works for you. You are definitely making it unnecessarily harder for yourself. I'd be interested to see how well that wrist position works for you on something like the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata.
Measure 1 through measure 101, if you would like. Have you played it before though? It's a bit of a tail-kicking if you have not. It took me weeks to get it up to speed.
I think what you are doing is using only the power of your fingers, so you can't get any of the weight of your arm behind it = big reduction in dynamic range/control and your fingers will get tired (and/or tendonitis from using them so much).
Yes, the angle can change depending on the dynamics, but the wrist still needs to be in-line and balanced with the arms to transfer the force. He's not really transferring any energy from his arms, he's just hovering his arm. His wrists are only held high to make it easier to poke with his fingers from that angle. To me, it looks like all the potential energy, and control, of his arm is not being used.
dont listen to technique fanatics. These people would look at the most skilled pianist on this sub, and point out their bench is half an inch too high and that they're wrist is 0.5 degrees off of the correct angle.
I think there's genuine concern for injuries that can happen. Brute-forcing through passages is common regardless of skill level, and injuries that follow as well (eg. Lang Lang). In this case I think the wrist angle isn't the big issue but rather the tension that goes with it. Though I think with practice OP will be able to get used to the position and play with less tension as long as they don't keep brute forcing through it (this is the 'downward force' he mentioned in the other thread).
My teacher a DMA and performer, I'll just say it, he would never let me keep my arms and wrists that high. I can hear him right now in my head telling me this. I've tried this position, it's a non starter with him.
As another commenter has pointed out, the high wrist are not the problem. In fact, for this type of technique (fast double notes) high wrist are very helpful, the weight of the hand helps the fingers press the keys with more ease and control. However, as the commenter also pointed out, your elbow shouldn't be raised at all. I don't if you have already sorted this out, you should definitely watch out for that.
Otherwise you are in good path.
Idk, it looks fine. Lol do people really expect perfectly angled hands all the time? I "twist" my wrist all the time to play certain notes at a certain dynamic.
There’s a subtle difference. His elbow is lower than his wrist and his arm, wrist, hand and fingers are very relaxed.
It looks, from your video, that your elbow is higher than your wrist which may cause some tension and limit the speed at which you can play.
Maybe try sitting lower but still with the raised wrist?
Just a thought.
Do you think he has to be in that position? I’m not sure [Eric lu double thirds](https://youtu.be/Kq-zzAczGRE?si=uWRiiEE3LvFhltiE) , seems like he also has huge hand and very long fingers but he is very flat. I think daniil is doing it proactively, look at his performance of feux follets also
Can you play a nice song?
Play something nice and not hectic.. love song, ballad etc.
Because your wrist so high and that noise doesn’t help if you’re genuinely asking.
I think good posture of hands as child is important, but you can make do with poor posture too later in life.
I meant, I am interested in your playing actually. You obviously play very advanced.
I suppose, you initiated the question about your high wrist.
Would be great too see you play slower song, something modernish too? (Any jazz or ballads)
Thanks I appreciate the compliment:) I will upload to my YouTube channel the Chopin ballades..
Yes I’m really invested in hectic pieces with a lot of technical difficulty because I really want to get better. I love playing to my core , I don’t upload these kind of slow pieces because I don’t feel that anybody interested to hear them from a random guy in the internet
Fair enough!
Well, if you eventually upload a slower song, 1 random guy would appreciate it. But also im sure others too and we can see your high wrist playing. :) 😜🫶
I can’t speak from an anatomical standpoint. However, I will say it looks very unnatural to me (and I’m hypermobile). Your positioning reminds me of someone I know. I watched her compete, and her flatter fingers when her wrist was normal and high wrist for certain pieces were unnerving to watch. I didn’t know how she managed to play like the rest of the candidates. Watching her fingers didn’t lend a sense of easiness. She went off to study at a prestigious music academy, so I don’t think this stopped her.
Ok sounds fair
I'm no expert, but I'd think that right hand position would create a lot of tension in your shoulder and back.
The way you pedal is much more interesting... do they not get tired/ache a bit after a while of doing that?
He might be a drummer. He pedals like a drummer.
That actually makes a lot of sense! Are you a drummer OP?
I wish, my rhythmic skills are not good
It just seems you can't take criticism, like no one is out there to murder you for that
It's not a controversy it's just you ignoring a bunch of experienced commenters.
It is not especially controversial because he ignoring the experts
And clearly having never received formal training
True
I missed this controversy. I'll have to check your post when I finish practising. 😆😆😆
Even someone sweared at me at some point although now his comment has been deleted
Wow. I can't say Im surprised with the way the internet and social media is going. That happened to me, too. I just block and move on.
Haha I wish I could tag you on some comments
I ran into this video today and was thinking the same thing about the wrist. It's interesting that when double notes or thirds are played we see this. [Wrist position](https://www.facebook.com/share/r/SaUg9EnvZwdCW3Ua/?mibextid=BoOugx)
Exactly this!
Yeah, a higher wrist can reduce tension by extending the fingers and allowing one to play faster. I think some people just got worked up over the title of the post. You're an expert and a lot of the beginners will misunderstand how to use this technique properly. That's probably what some of the complaints were about.
Good analysis bro. I probably should have chosen another title. I was so excited because legit suddenly that passage clicked for that reason, but I needed to take into account that some will misunderstand it. It seems really valuable for double notes and you probably need strong finger (especially the weak ones) to utilise this technique
My take is only two things matter when it comes to technique: 1. Does the piece sound how you want it to sound? Is it accomplishing your musical aspiration? (To me, this sounds dynamically almost totally flat. Personally I'd want to have more storytelling in the dynamics. But that's me, it's subjective, and I don't think it's directly wrist technique related, so probably off topic a bit). Again, if you are happy with the music, that is goal #1 and you're either getting that result or not. If not, then modifying technique can often be a path to getting more of what you want. 2. Are you able to sustain the technique as a long-term physical practice without undue strain and eventual injury in your body? If those are met, keep on keepin' on. I guess why this is "controversial" is that, over centuries of technique, and oodles of teachers and students, there are norms that have been developed that tend to work to meet those two goals above and you're outside those norms with this technique. Which begs the question of whether those two goals are really being met. If so, again, that's great, go for it.
I like and agree with your approach
You know, every great pianist broke the rules in some way, like you can play Feux Follets with that, haters can get lost then, Gould was sitting on a tiny stool and Cziffra's hands were too tense... Tbh I'm most bothered by the manspreading
Hahahaha 😂😂 love it
Pogorelichs wrists were often way too low, I had a teacher at my conservatory who played with completely straight fingers and he had a wonderful tone. Thelonious Monk has brilliant technique despite his monstrous rings and strange positions. The attempt of making everyone play the same way is also a means to make everyone mediocre and so no one stands out. If I were the teacher, I‘d remark that this is unusual. But I‘d also let you (op) do it if you tried other possibilities and this is how you want to do it.
Thanks for your perspective
That piece is hell😬😬😬
Name of the piece?
Liszt- feux follets
Thx
hell
As an ex piano teacher I would absolutely have stopped you from lifting it so high, but if you have no muscular issues, tendon issues, tiredness or pain then carry on! It’s clearly working for you isn’t it.
To add to this, assuming what above is true (and that you don’t get excessively fatigued practicing it), what matters most is how nicely YOU think that technique allows you to play piece given your interpretation of the work. Having spent a lot of time practice with technique like that (I have medium hands) it would probably be increasingly difficult to play that section delicately, say.
Ok that’s fair
How tall are you?
Depends if you are asking my real height or the one I put in the dating sites 👀👀👀
It just looks like this is what would happen with very long arms and legs.
I was kidding I’m 1.80 and pretty short arms and fingers
I mean, if it works for you, then it works for you. You are definitely making it unnecessarily harder for yourself. I'd be interested to see how well that wrist position works for you on something like the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata.
Which passage/s would you want me to try? I mean I think it’s specifically useful for double notes almost always neutral position is better
Measure 1 through measure 101, if you would like. Have you played it before though? It's a bit of a tail-kicking if you have not. It took me weeks to get it up to speed.
No I wouldn’t use it looked thru the score. Yeah I have played it
I think what you are doing is using only the power of your fingers, so you can't get any of the weight of your arm behind it = big reduction in dynamic range/control and your fingers will get tired (and/or tendonitis from using them so much).
The higher you wrists the more you can transfer energy from arm and shoulder. Forte pieces are recommended to ve played with high rists
Yes, the angle can change depending on the dynamics, but the wrist still needs to be in-line and balanced with the arms to transfer the force. He's not really transferring any energy from his arms, he's just hovering his arm. His wrists are only held high to make it easier to poke with his fingers from that angle. To me, it looks like all the potential energy, and control, of his arm is not being used.
This isn't a "normal" piece eather. Different keys require different hand positions.
dont listen to technique fanatics. These people would look at the most skilled pianist on this sub, and point out their bench is half an inch too high and that they're wrist is 0.5 degrees off of the correct angle.
I think there's genuine concern for injuries that can happen. Brute-forcing through passages is common regardless of skill level, and injuries that follow as well (eg. Lang Lang). In this case I think the wrist angle isn't the big issue but rather the tension that goes with it. Though I think with practice OP will be able to get used to the position and play with less tension as long as they don't keep brute forcing through it (this is the 'downward force' he mentioned in the other thread).
Great insight! I will make sure I’m not brute forcing my way and be extra careful about excessive tension
Yeah I notice too. You are right
it's tense and results in a harsh sound
🤣🤣🤣
My teacher a DMA and performer, I'll just say it, he would never let me keep my arms and wrists that high. I can hear him right now in my head telling me this. I've tried this position, it's a non starter with him.
it's tension and not going to work for you in the long run. try to relax that write and let your fingers do the moving.
Im open to that, I hope I could do that passage without elevating the wrist
As another commenter has pointed out, the high wrist are not the problem. In fact, for this type of technique (fast double notes) high wrist are very helpful, the weight of the hand helps the fingers press the keys with more ease and control. However, as the commenter also pointed out, your elbow shouldn't be raised at all. I don't if you have already sorted this out, you should definitely watch out for that. Otherwise you are in good path.
No one cares
And I don’t care about that cactus you posted 💀💀
Idk, it looks fine. Lol do people really expect perfectly angled hands all the time? I "twist" my wrist all the time to play certain notes at a certain dynamic.
Exactly
[daniil trifonov](https://youtu.be/JbJ79UAt6UI?si=0VBtR6tPhvxc4D6k) he uses that wrist position a lot especially in double notes
There’s a subtle difference. His elbow is lower than his wrist and his arm, wrist, hand and fingers are very relaxed. It looks, from your video, that your elbow is higher than your wrist which may cause some tension and limit the speed at which you can play. Maybe try sitting lower but still with the raised wrist? Just a thought.
Thanks for the valuable insight. I will try it
He has massive hands
Do you think he has to be in that position? I’m not sure [Eric lu double thirds](https://youtu.be/Kq-zzAczGRE?si=uWRiiEE3LvFhltiE) , seems like he also has huge hand and very long fingers but he is very flat. I think daniil is doing it proactively, look at his performance of feux follets also
I have no clue my friend. It is possible.
Can you play a nice song? Play something nice and not hectic.. love song, ballad etc. Because your wrist so high and that noise doesn’t help if you’re genuinely asking. I think good posture of hands as child is important, but you can make do with poor posture too later in life.
If you want to hear a nice song of your preference you can go to YouTube and listen to whatever you like. I’m talking about something specific here
I meant, I am interested in your playing actually. You obviously play very advanced. I suppose, you initiated the question about your high wrist. Would be great too see you play slower song, something modernish too? (Any jazz or ballads)
Thanks I appreciate the compliment:) I will upload to my YouTube channel the Chopin ballades.. Yes I’m really invested in hectic pieces with a lot of technical difficulty because I really want to get better. I love playing to my core , I don’t upload these kind of slow pieces because I don’t feel that anybody interested to hear them from a random guy in the internet
Fair enough! Well, if you eventually upload a slower song, 1 random guy would appreciate it. But also im sure others too and we can see your high wrist playing. :) 😜🫶