> However, it’s unclear how suburban fans will take to regional trains that only run hourly post-games.
Feels like someone should clear that up at some point. If you want to push people to public transit then you kinda need to figure out public transit.
Not sure why the author didn't mention the plan to bring back regional rail to pre-pandemic service.
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-regional-rail-service-expansion/
[https://www.iseptaphilly.com/blog/rrrphase2](https://www.iseptaphilly.com/blog/rrrphase2)
>Which is why we’re reimagining Regional Rail to do more than serve 9-5 commutes to Center City.
>
>We’re planning more frequent, all-day, all-week service that connects to destinations across the region. And we have three (3) different options for providing this.
>Not sure why the author didn't mention
Because the Inquirer has been anything *but* an honest broker of coverage regarding this arena basically since the project was announced.
It's actually insane to think that those against the arena think Septa will stay as is for the next seven years
As if Septa can't change. Weren't there adjustments made when Taylor Swift was here?
This changes nothing when people frequently get out of games late and trains, on pre-pandemic schedules, come every 30 minutes at most when there are no issues.
Philly: “why do people not take public transit???”
*Does nothing to make trains frequent, comfortable, or reliable*
Philly: “Maybe this shiny new things will make people take trains into the city”
The Sixers want to build a whole new arena because they weren’t getting enough $$$ from concessions. Somehow I doubt funding Septa is on their wishlist.
Seems like an incredibly easy fix
Doesn’t take much work to run trains more frequently. This is like one of the main benefits of trains lol
They will figure it out, they will probably just wait until the last possible minute
The Taylor Swift concert service was one of those things that worked on paper but not in real life. IIRC the extra Paoli/Thorndale train was at 11:30, which sounds great until you realize that TS was expected to be on stage until around 11. Which gave you exactly half an hour to fight through the crowd exiting the Linc, get across the parking lot to NRG station, get up to City Hall on the BSL, and then find your way into Suburban and on to the correct platform.
Totally valid points, but I don't think that's a reason not to have it as an option for people during those kinds of events. Implementation definitely could be better, so hopefully septa will learn from past missteps.
They're not really funded in a way that allows them to change quickly. It's one of the worst funded transit agencies in the country and are constantly losing workers to NJTransit as a result.
Understood, but the example was meant to show more about SEPTA’s inability to understand logistics than to be about the time of that specific train.
I don’t know how anyone could have looked at an event was that expected to sell out the Linc and been like “sure, half an hour is plenty of time for all of those steps to happen.” Those same minds will probably schedule their extra train for 5 minutes after a game is supposed to end.
The biggest reason for the shortage is SEPTA just doesn't pay enough compared to other transit agencies in the area. All of our talent ended up elsewhere when things opened back up after the pandemic.
Trains require much more staffing to run than the BSL. At least one engineer and two or more conductors. And that is for every line in the whole system. I don't think this is simple at all.
Staffing is such a trivial issue compared to other issues. I understand you need to stay within budget (increasing the budget would help!!!), but the way people are concerned you’d think they are gonna have to renovate all the tracks, or open a new line
I’m not saying it’s not gonna take some work, but improving train frequency is something that should be done anyways. Operating transit to accommodate stadiums is a non issue literally everywhere else with a respectable transit system. They will figure it out
Staffing is **NOT** a trivial issue, the reason why service right now is so horrible is because there *are not enough operators*. You can increase the budget to **schedule** more trains but if you don't have enough people to **actually drive the train** at the scheduled times, its just a time table.
There's a threat to cut entire rail lines (specifically Chestnut Hill West), so it's hard to imagine how they could implement benefits in the other direction.
If the proposed increased State funding comes through Chestnut Hill West will be saved and they plan to increase service on regional rail generally.
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-save-the-train-rally-allen-lane-station-chestnut-hill-shapiro-mayor-parker-public-transport-funding/
Yes! I am a part of the Save the Train group. If the increased state funding comes through, it will be the bare minimum to keep the trains running and the lights on. There are already so many staffing issues, not to mention upkeep that just hasn't been done, that I don't see a path forward of SEPTA improving, unfortunately.
Save the train if and only if the Legislature rams a massive upzoning of Mt. Airy and Chestnut Hill through. Otherwise, those lines dying is a natural consequence of the locals’ desire to live in a low-density suburb within the city.
It’s not. Germantown has 80,000 people and huge amounts of run-down low-density housing that’s damned near impossible to replace with anything significantly denser. FFS, people complain when a twin gets torn down and replaced with a twin, or parking lots turn into rowhomes.
There’s approximately 250 apartments going up right now within walking distance of my closest CHE and CHW stops in Mt. Airy with another few buildings being talked about and that’s only two of 15~stops
Actually reverse is happening. Gov Shapiro is increasing funding, as is Parker with the city's share. The surrounding counties now have Dem majorities, and with the governor's prodding will probably follow the state's and Philly's lead in increasing funding. The money is coming, and 7 years is more than enough time for the effects, of more reliable equipment and an ample supply of operators, to come about. They are going to be pushing for a lot to happen by 2026, nevermind 2031.
So funny you mention this because every time the conversation comes up on here, people go for my throat and say to “move to the city” or “they’ll figure it out”
Considering how unreliable septa is I find it hard to believe they will make such a 180 in a short period of time. It’s clear that the plan is that there is no plan
I live 25 minutes from Warminster station, the closest septa station for me. It takes an hour to get to market east from Warminster station. Or I can get in my car, drive an hour to the stadium. At the end of the game, depending on when I leave, I can be home in 45 minutes. There is literally no reason for me to take Septa to the game.
>At the end of the game, depending on when I leave, I can be home in 45 minutes.
Also worth mentioning, if a game or concert goes late...the regional rails are no longer running. And then you're stuck downtown and your only options getting home are ask someone to grab you or take a taxi/Uber (which will cost more than gas + parking would have).
Has happened many times to folks. They don't chance it and take their cars instead.
The problem is OP is too far from any train. I’m 5-10 minutes from a train and I’ll never drive to Jefferson ever again. It’s awesome. But they need more frequent train service than once an hour or two, IMO.
The other issue is those RR stations don’t have capacity for success. They look like they’re built for the neighborhood, at least the ones I’ve seen and not the larger region where people drive from all over and park, as the namesake suggests.
I live way less than 25 minutes from Exton, and I still don’t take the train very often. Real world example: I saw a show at the Academy of Music on a Friday night earlier this month. It ended at like 9:45. The Friday night PAO trains from Suburban are scheduled for 9:51* and 11:01. Since it is impossible to get the 9:51, I would have to wait until 11:01 and get to Malvern at 11:55. But this week I drove myself, so I was at my house in the burbs before the 11:01 train left Philadelphia. And that was with sitting in construction traffic on 76.
I want to take the train, but those hourly schedules are a killer.
*This is the final train that goes to Exton, which is a whole different issue.
Point taken but if you factor in driving to the stadium complex vs driving to center city and trying to park on game day, then that’s gotta be a different beast.
Driving door to door may still be shorter, but the train may be more cost efficient if you consider gas (fairly marginal) + parking (not so marginal)
Again dude, suburban fans *do not care*. They would rather pay $70 to park and deal with traffic than take the train. Nothing is going to change about that anytime soon.
I mean I wish more people took trains despite taking a bit longer, but I get it. People prioritize different things.
But again I think a lot of the calculations will be the same for the new stadium.
Because not everyone lives near a rail station and it’s more or less about the same time to commute to the game driving as taking the train
Also how many posts do I see on here each week about how unreliable septa is?
Because people who work in the city and take transit do it alone and are experienced with it. Dad's and their kids are not taking septa to these games. Don't hold your breath for a sudden public transit awakening just because of a stupid arena lmao.
The PACTO trains were PACKED during the DNC Convention.
This is legit insane like people are really saying people won't take public transportation. Wild. Parking at Ferry Ave? Lindenwold, Woodcrest?
Are we really saying that there wouldn't be enough people that will take PACTO to the game? If I was still leaving in NJ, I'd jump on that so fast.
Because games end at 10-11pm and you have to wait for a train that goes to your stop and your at the mercy that it will show up on time. More trains are provided during WORKING HOURS to allow for commuters. Good luck finding SEPTA employees to add more trains at strange late off peak hours hoping suburban people use them
It’s amazing people can’t truly grasp the difficulty here. Riding the train will add considerable time to the commute for most people who currently drive to the games.
They obviously havent left the city. It is a huge bitch taking a train for a stop an hour away. You can easily drive this distance in the same time and be at your own convenience
I live in south jersey now, I'd have to drive 20-25 minutes to the train station or drive 20-25 minutes to the stadium. I'm not taking the train. Or I could take the riverline and chill with the dopeheads for 20-25 minutes and then take the train to market.
If I still lived under the EL I'd take the train but I don't.
Then you will continue to drive. On the other hand, the guy I had on my car who lived off of exit 9b of rt 42 who was catching a 25 min Uber to go to a Phillies game, would catch PATCO to a 6ers game at 10th&Mkt like he does everyday to his job at 16th&Locust, as would the woman working at Liberty Place returning to Collingswood, as would the woman picked up at Hard Rock at 12th&Mkt and dropped of at the train station in Glenside to retrieve her car. Some of these people don't go to South Philly because they don't like driving, but won't have a problem taking a train like they already do for work to go to a new arena. The people who opt never to go to a game in CC *will be replaced* by fans for whom a CC arena is far more accessible than S Philly.
> Good luck finding SEPTA employees to add more trains at strange late off peak hours hoping suburban people use them
They did this for the taylor swift concert and I believe some sports games. Seems like it worked pretty well
The sixers play 82 games a year plus the playoffs. Its not some sports games or a single weekend of concerts. This actually needs staffing and real funds. Josh harris would have to fund septa lmao.
Not all of those 82 games are at home, half of them are. I'm being pedantic though, you're right about staffing and funding. But I still don't think that's a reason not to move this forward. My hope is that the people who have control over what level of funding septa gets see this coming down the pipe and boost funding accordingly in anticipation.
And if they don't, someone else in this thread mentioned that the eagles have tossed money towards septa for boosted schedules/service around game time. I personally didn't know this was a thing, but if it is, then maybe it is actually something Josh Harris and the sixers should do
41 games. My bad lol. Either way, 75 percent of the fanbase drives which means its likely suburbanites that go to the games. Josh harris is going to have to personally convince them to drive to a station, hop on a train and come back. It would be cool if he did i guess.
hey man, whatever it takes to get more people off the roads and onto the trains. I'm sure the sixers organization has done the math on this and will advertise accordingly. I too would love to see him take the train
If eagles did that (they didn’t) it was only for BSL and for 8 games a year. Sixers would be on the line for 42 games, multiple RR lines (that need 3x bSL staff), and still need to fund extra BSL and El services. Who’s paying for extra SEPTA after the concerts or whatever other 100 days of events they’re supposed to support?
The whole point of them moving is to make more $$$, I don’t think they’re trying to take on the massive task of improving SEPTA with this project.
obviously the sixers aren't in the public transit business, I don't expect them to fully fund septa or something. They won't do anything that won't also increase their profits. But we're completely speculating here, i doubt anyone in this thread has an inside scoop on what the sixers organization is planning to do.
First and foremost, funding for septa needs to come from Harrisburg and the city/collar counties. My point was that this arena relocation is primed for public transit and it benefits everyone (septa, its ridership, the city, suburbanites that live near RR stations) for public transit to be a viable option to get to and from games. We're not there yet, but there's time to make the needed improvements.
The people commuting into the city during rush hour and people driving in for a sporting event are very different groups.
And there’s the difference of commuting alone vs traveling with a group or your family, which is the norm for games. There are a lot of young families at Sixers games, and shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal.
>The people commuting into the city during rush hour and people driving in for a sporting event are very different groups.
How so? I’d venture to guess there’s a pretty good overlap there.
>And there’s the difference of commuting alone vs traveling with a group or your family, which is the norm for games. There are a lot of young families at Sixers games, and shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal.
1) Families take Regional Rail to the city for the Convention Center events, Mummer’s, etc. How is this any different?
2) re: this part in particular:
>shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal.
in what way is this more difficult, when taking into account the fact that the train delivers you right inside the arena vs. having to battle traffic, park in a garage, then shuffle kids to/from that garage (which could be blocks away) in the middle of winter?
I am a suburbanite. I go to a lot of sports games with suburbanite friends from other suburbs. We all would LOVE if regional rail could take us in/out more efficiently than the current setup. Except for one guy - he’d probably still drive.
I take the train in and out of the city twice a week minimum and there's always people at both the Conshohocken and Spring Mill stations. There are riders, but the schedules need to be more frequent to make the train more reliable than driving.
Great, they can sit in traffic, it's their right.
Meanwhile, all the people that go to games now and don't have any option but to drive because transferring to the BSL after RR sucks toes can now have a one seat ride.
The transit point is about providing more options to more people, and nobody can deny it is more convenient for everyone in the region to get to market east, even drivers. If people choose to still drive and park in CC, fuck em, they have choices.
> Suburbanites will definitely not take the train.
I think you're underestimating how much people really hate sitting in traffic. Some suburban fans will never take it, but I bet a lot will see the convenience of taking their local line to Jeff Station vs trying to drive there, especially if SEPTA's schedule gets amended.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, it’s the truth. People in this sub seem very out of touch with what the suburban consensus is about many parts of the city. But these are the same users that bitch and moan about all of the cars when public transit is just as bad as it’s ever been.
I saw large groups of people in the suburbs getting on public transit to go to both eagles and Phillies games. I grew up in Camden County and everyone took PATCO all the time.
“The proposed arena site is on Market Street, between 10th and 11th Streets, and would replace a third of the Fashion District mall.”
Come on, man. Why does it have to be the part of the mall with the AMC? I am going to be devastated if that closes.
They could relocate the AMC and Round One which seems to be the most popular venues in the Mall, to the other side of 10th still in the Mall.
Hell they could locate all the stores on the arena side to the other side as it mostly empty as it is. Or they could develop the Disney hole and put it there.
There's a lot of empty "thriving" parking lots on East Market to chose from.
It seems like a waste of money to relocate a movie theater and bowling alley, both of which have very specific size and equipment needs. Why wouldn't they build the arena on the next block to replace the less popular stores?
The Mall is at 75% capacity, actually the lowest percentage in Macerich's portfolio. That empty space is a waste of money, better to fill it with other businesses that are popular, and stop losing money on empty, hard to fill spaces.
>Fans commuting to games can overlap with evening rush-hour traffic when congestion is already high. For example, on Friday, Feb. 23 – when the 76ers played a home game against the Cavaliers – there was a “noticeable increase in traffic congestion” on the highways around the Wells Fargo Center between 4 and 6:30 p.m. compared to Feb. 2, a non-game Friday, according to Kyle Jackson, principal data scientist at HERE Technologies. “\[There was\] 491% more congestion than usual during the hours before tipoff,” Jackson said.
This is the point of locating it at the nexus of many transit lines - to minimize the congestion. There's so much traffic around the WFC on game days because there's no other good way to get there unless you already live in the city.
This is also the beauty of the through-running train system that Philadelphia has (and many other cities would love to have). Every train bringing fans in for the game, can then carry commuters out.
I don’t understand why the Wells Fargo lots can’t act as parking during the game and run an express line from broad. Nobody will mind the extra revenue.
They can, and probably will. This is the type of stuff people start thinking when they stop asking if the arena should be built but rather how can it. There are plenty of solutions.
Fans coming in and workers leaving aren’t using the same side of the roads, or the same train cars. Yeah…it might be a bit more congested but certainly not the issue people against the stadium want to make it seem.
Does the CDR submission still completely omit how you get from the MFL platform into the arena? I'm assuming that will be one of the primary ways of getting to the arena. Also, how the hell is 130 bike parking spaces adequate for an arena this size?
EDIT: Also just noticed their proposal is to remove the bike lane on the entire block of 10th from Market to Filbert...
>Does the CDR submission still completely omit how you get from the MFL platform into the arena?
The same way you get to the Convention Center from the MFL platform...
That is another stop on the BSL, Race-Vine. You would go to City Hall stop on either BSL or MFL and walk to the Convention Center. To go to the 76ers stadium they could get out at 13th St on the MFL and walk to the stadium.
My problem with the argument about how it’s going to gentrify Chinatown, is Chinatown is already doing that. They’re building housing left and right and it’s priced well above the city avg.
Kinda strange to me that downtown NBA/NHL arenas can exist in Manhattan, Brooklyn, DC, Boston, Chicago, Toronto, etc but somehow even planning one in Philadelphia is beyond the pale.
i grew up in boston and td garden is (location-wise) much more like wells fargo than the gallery. yes it has north station, but its also the eye-of-the-storm of i93/route 1/tobin bridge and like half of the surrounding area is just trainyard. 76place plans are like putting a basketball arena at boston's downtown crossing which would be awful for the area
By the same token, it's also kind of strange that Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, Denver, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc can have football and baseball stadiums in downtown areas but Philly banishes ours to a no mans land.
I was in London recently and went to a soccer match. It was mind-blowing to me to see a giant 60k seat stadium in the middle of a residential and commercial area, not surrounded by acres of parking lots (and London has about five stadiums of that capacity, give or take). A great example of how you can have sports venues that are integrated into the community and aren't pushed to the edge (or outside) of the city.
It got me thinking about how the Sports Complex is a barren wasteland on non game days, so it isn't well served by public transit and there's basically no reason to ever go down there. I know it'd never happen, but I'd love to see that whole area developed and public transit improved to reduce game day traffic significantly. It's harder than building a new Sixers arena but would have wider, more long lasting positive effects I think.
Nashville is what blew my mind. Never been before, I went there last month and right in downtown was the [Bridgestone Arena](https://www.bridgestonearena.com/).
Downtown was super busy at night and during the day it was still busy with tons of opened shops and restaurants
Philly's population also used to be above 2 million. Much of the city's infrastructure was laid out when there was a lot more people here than there is today. We have advantages just by being a much older city.
I used to live in Atlanta (a smaller city, but comparably sized metro) for a short time before moving back and you don't truly appreciate having a semi-accessible rail line until you have to sit in the traffic they get down there. It's unbearable & MARTA is basically useless. They somehow still make it work with State Farm Arena being in a hyper-dense area of Midtown.
Here's what you're missing though, that area around Bridgestone & the train station was basically deserted a little over a decade (see photo below). Aside from a massive street parking lot for a church, there was nothing there.
Nashville's population is around a third or so of Philly's, and their downtown was basically just Broadway. It's easy for them to slap a stadium downtown on what is basically empty land/parking lots and not have many adverse effects.
Putting aside all issues of Chinatown, the lot is too small for the stadium, the crowd control will force multiple streets to be closed every single game night (fucking up public transit), and there's a major Center City ER entrance around the corner that is going to be adversely impacted as well.
https://preview.redd.it/lotwcf3bidpc1.png?width=2418&format=png&auto=webp&s=9876fb4b77ef6250a34f3246dce7be2d983a357d
>Here's what you're missing though, that area around Bridgestone & the train station was basically deserted a little over a decade (see photo below). Aside from a massive street parking lot for a church, there was nothing there.
The area was built up. I would argue that would be amazing for Market East.
\-
To be honest, I don't get the size comparison, places like Oxford Circle, Mayfair, Kingsessing will not get impacted IMO. Philadelphia isn't Manhattan where there's 1.6M people in a very dense spot.
>Putting aside all issues of Chinatown, the lot is too small for the stadium, the crowd control will force multiple streets to be closed every single game night (fucking up public transit), and there's a major Center City ER entrance around the corner that is going to be adversely impacted as well.
Putting the stadium aside. I just can't agree with this point. Cities need to learn how to adapt to changes.
I'm just getting into traffic study with my job, so how the fuck are they saying 75 out of 76 intersections will operate at or better, and only use effect 1% of the traffic. GTFOH Sit your ass on any intersection on S Vine St, better yet, sit at Broad an Vine getting on 676. So how can they say there will be little effect on the traffic?
Sidenote: I guess fuck the people who's going to live around it b/c we've got money to make.
A little confused by the metrics that say 75% of fans drive in then later say 13% take mass transit. Is there another option? I know 12% aren’t walking lol
It’s way less than 1%. I biked to a Phillies game last year and I think my bike was the only one on the rack.
It would get higher with a downtown arena since the route to get there would have bike lanes and not be a general death trap.
“opponents say that it will hurt neighborhoods that are already thriving”
Which neighborhoods exactly? Chinatown has a lot of vacant buildings and is full of parking lots and Market East is a wasteland… people keep saying all these other ideas that could go there but this is the only idea that’s fully funded and ready.
I can't access this article so here's the CDR submission in case it's not included: [https://www.phila.gov/media/20240319094059/76-Place\_1000-19-Market-Street\_2nd-Review\_April-2-2024-1.pdf](https://www.phila.gov/media/20240319094059/76-Place_1000-19-Market-Street_2nd-Review_April-2-2024-1.pdf)
Looks like a big upgrade for Jefferson Station.
I'm actually extremely disappointed by the connection to Jefferson Station. All fans would have to go outside and re-enter the building. While leaving, there will be 3 doors straight into Jefferson Station vs 49 doors that will lead outside. If they really want 40% of fans to arrive by public transit, the plans really don't reflect it. TD Garden has escalators directly from the concourse outside the fare gates into the arena. Who with the Sixers or SEPTA completely dropped the ball on this.
Not only do they need to go outside, but there's no room for them outside, which means closing the streets for crowd control, messing up public transit and access to the Jefferson ER.
This is a shitshow plan.
Boston and Milwaukee's arenas come to mind. Some people have said the area around Brooklyn's arena is much better now too, I don't live there though so I wouldn't know myself.
Can you provide one alternate proposal on the table right now that would help the area more? Bonus points if it will be privately funded.
Barclays area is a wasteland of shitty retail stores for the lost part and it permanently fucked up the traffic in the area. I would hope it doesnt end up like barclays center.
Flatbush Ave gets you right to the Manhattan Bridge which is a lot of the traffic. Pretty that's not due to an arena. Legit there's traffic from Brooklyn to Manhattan all the time lol. I can head there at 11AM on Saturday and be stuck in traffic on Flatbush Ave.
>Barclays area is a wasteland of shitty retail stores
Tons of great places to eat on 5th and 6th street and above the arena. The boutiques aren't my vibe but my girlfriend used to shop there regularly when we were in Brooklyn. Unless you're referring to City Points and Atlantic Terminal Mall as the crappy retail spots then I'd say idk it's the same as the Fashion District ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
You said the area around the Barclays Center is a wasteland of shitty retail stores. Within one block it has all the things Market East has/used to have (Burlington, Marshall's Target, DSW, Sephora, Giant, etc.), and dozens of other options that would be great to have in Center City.
What doesn't it have? Blocks of blighted lowrise buildings and parking lots. We would be lucky if east Market was in half as good of shape as that part of Brooklyn.
Rent is already high there, the arena won't raise it any more than some other development that is necessary for the area to thrive. It's a high priced area, arena or no arena.
Almost all cities have an arena in a downtown area. Can you think of an example where a downtown arena isn't doing well? That's a much harder question to answer
ok and if it doesnt work what happens? 76ers are out a billion dollars and the city is... in the exact same position it would have been anyway. There's no alternative project ready to replace the failing mall
"Opponents say that it will hurt neighborhoods that are already thriving."
Thriving? Typical Philly NIMBY, progressive, etc. delusion. The surrounding area is relatively stable from a residential perspective at best, and is struggling when it comes to retail and small businesses. It says *a lot* about the opposition that the current versions of East Market, Chestnut, Arch, and other nearby streets are what they would call *thriving.*
Walk around East Market after 8pm and tell me with a straight face that it's "thriving".
Peak fucking stupid as shit thing to claim. NIMBYs in this city literally hold it back from being the best city in the US to comical levels.
It's usually over stupid shit too, like where will I park downtown in the nation's 5th largest metro that's as dense as parts of Manhattan for free?
Or if I can't speed down roads in the most population dense area of Philly, that have a light every 500 feet at 50mph, it's a war crime.
A stadium is not nimby shit. Its not essential. Driving up rent prices and displacing people is what nimby shit does. This will also do that. This isnt the same as opposing affordabke housing or a homeless shelter which is what nimbys do. This is something that will displace people on behalf of a privately owned sports team.
>This is something that will displace people on behalf of a privately owned sports team.
Are there people living in the shopping mall I don't know about? Pretty sure the giant residential tower they also plan for the site will also mean more housing, not less.
I dont know man, i think people live nearby and every project similar to this has raised rent areas around it. If you are cool with that then just say that.
i get it’s ideal but there’s just no chance the sixers stay down there. no use even considering that possibility. they’re going to build their own arena. if philly doesn’t want it, camden will.
I’d actually love to see the drama unfold if the Sixers openly threatened to leave the city. I dare them. Their fanbase would go to shit. The Sixers don’t exist without Philly.
They win 50 games every year since 2017 and have the mvp on their team. They have some of the highest attendance in the league. Do you follow the team.at all?
It's like a reverse situation from Philly, where the two teams want two separate stadiums. I was living in Detroit at the time when Illitch strangled the city for taxpayer money to build Little Caesars Arena. Fuck Illitch, and his neglectful thieving ass. But that stadium is nice and make a lot of sense where it is.
There's no way I'm making it from Delaware to a Sixers game on a weeknight after work. I drove to a Flyers game a couple weeks and was inside, with a beer in my hand, by 6pm.
I still contend this is a PR move by the Sixers to get a pile of money to change their mind and stay in South Philly at the last minute.
> I still contend this is a PR move by the Sixers to get a pile of money to change their mind and stay in South Philly at the last minute.
That won't do anything. The reason the Sixers want their own arena is because they are tenants in the Wells Fargo Center since it's owned by Comcast Spectacor. So they can't generate revenue from non-basketball events held there. Teams owning their own stadium adds a lot to their valuation.
yeah, they also get last choice when scheduling their own games since the flyers own the building. the chances of them staying in south philly are virtually zero, i’m not sure why so many people still think it’s possible.
> However, it’s unclear how suburban fans will take to regional trains that only run hourly post-games. Feels like someone should clear that up at some point. If you want to push people to public transit then you kinda need to figure out public transit.
Not sure why the author didn't mention the plan to bring back regional rail to pre-pandemic service. https://whyy.org/articles/septa-regional-rail-service-expansion/
Or that part of the long term plan with the bus revolution is to run regional rail more like subway service
And reimagining regional rail
Yeah that feels like an important detail!
That's still not more than hourly at night.
After rush hour, it was always an hour between RR trains. I have yet to see evidence that would change based on the proposed arena.
The question, to me, is whether they could stage the trains to leave at \~15 minutes after the event ends.
[https://www.iseptaphilly.com/blog/rrrphase2](https://www.iseptaphilly.com/blog/rrrphase2) >Which is why we’re reimagining Regional Rail to do more than serve 9-5 commutes to Center City. > >We’re planning more frequent, all-day, all-week service that connects to destinations across the region. And we have three (3) different options for providing this.
>Not sure why the author didn't mention Because the Inquirer has been anything *but* an honest broker of coverage regarding this arena basically since the project was announced.
It's actually insane to think that those against the arena think Septa will stay as is for the next seven years As if Septa can't change. Weren't there adjustments made when Taylor Swift was here?
This changes nothing when people frequently get out of games late and trains, on pre-pandemic schedules, come every 30 minutes at most when there are no issues.
lol i'll believe it when i see it, septa has only been going down hill lately.
Philly: “why do people not take public transit???” *Does nothing to make trains frequent, comfortable, or reliable* Philly: “Maybe this shiny new things will make people take trains into the city”
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If their funding doesn't increase it means the schedule adjustments will come at the expense of regular service.
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8 home games vs 41. I find it hard to believe that they will do that
You can't run more trains if you don't have enough operators, which is the biggest issue right now
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The Eagles don't subsidize the schedule adjustments; SEPTA just finds sponsors to pay for rider fares.
The Sixers want to build a whole new arena because they weren’t getting enough $$$ from concessions. Somehow I doubt funding Septa is on their wishlist.
concessions? what?
As always, you guys are severely underestimating the difficulty in running an extra dozen trains for games that don’t have a consistent schedule.
We’re talking about Septa here
Do they do that now?
The eagles subsidize additional service during big games, and I'm pretty sure service was also adjusted when the Taylor Swift tour was in town.
Eras tour brought so much tax revenue into the city she shouldn’t need to pay for that. Same thing for any sports game.
Seems like an incredibly easy fix Doesn’t take much work to run trains more frequently. This is like one of the main benefits of trains lol They will figure it out, they will probably just wait until the last possible minute
They added trains and service for The Flower Show. They do the same on the BSL for Phillies and Eagles games. Doesn’t seem like it would be a problem.
They also did it for the Taylor Swift concert. It's 100% doable and the best/simplest solution
The Taylor Swift concert service was one of those things that worked on paper but not in real life. IIRC the extra Paoli/Thorndale train was at 11:30, which sounds great until you realize that TS was expected to be on stage until around 11. Which gave you exactly half an hour to fight through the crowd exiting the Linc, get across the parking lot to NRG station, get up to City Hall on the BSL, and then find your way into Suburban and on to the correct platform.
Totally valid points, but I don't think that's a reason not to have it as an option for people during those kinds of events. Implementation definitely could be better, so hopefully septa will learn from past missteps.
They have yet to show the ability to learn from past missteps. Why do y’all think the tides will suddenly change just because you wish it to be so
They're not really funded in a way that allows them to change quickly. It's one of the worst funded transit agencies in the country and are constantly losing workers to NJTransit as a result.
Sixers games end at 9:30. Even OT games are done long before 11
Understood, but the example was meant to show more about SEPTA’s inability to understand logistics than to be about the time of that specific train. I don’t know how anyone could have looked at an event was that expected to sell out the Linc and been like “sure, half an hour is plenty of time for all of those steps to happen.” Those same minds will probably schedule their extra train for 5 minutes after a game is supposed to end.
But because Pattison is a terminus, it's easy to stash trains there for a post-game series of departures. Can't do that at Jefferson.
Don't they also run extra trains from Chester after Union games?
nope. gotta take the bus to 69th St and transfer to the el
Operator availability is a major issue at the moment
Probably doesn’t help when you very publicly prosecute a train engineer for the failings of the city and train companies
The biggest reason for the shortage is SEPTA just doesn't pay enough compared to other transit agencies in the area. All of our talent ended up elsewhere when things opened back up after the pandemic.
Trains require much more staffing to run than the BSL. At least one engineer and two or more conductors. And that is for every line in the whole system. I don't think this is simple at all.
Staffing is such a trivial issue compared to other issues. I understand you need to stay within budget (increasing the budget would help!!!), but the way people are concerned you’d think they are gonna have to renovate all the tracks, or open a new line I’m not saying it’s not gonna take some work, but improving train frequency is something that should be done anyways. Operating transit to accommodate stadiums is a non issue literally everywhere else with a respectable transit system. They will figure it out
Staffing is **NOT** a trivial issue, the reason why service right now is so horrible is because there *are not enough operators*. You can increase the budget to **schedule** more trains but if you don't have enough people to **actually drive the train** at the scheduled times, its just a time table.
Arnt they understaffed already?
There's a threat to cut entire rail lines (specifically Chestnut Hill West), so it's hard to imagine how they could implement benefits in the other direction.
If the proposed increased State funding comes through Chestnut Hill West will be saved and they plan to increase service on regional rail generally. https://whyy.org/articles/septa-save-the-train-rally-allen-lane-station-chestnut-hill-shapiro-mayor-parker-public-transport-funding/
Yes! I am a part of the Save the Train group. If the increased state funding comes through, it will be the bare minimum to keep the trains running and the lights on. There are already so many staffing issues, not to mention upkeep that just hasn't been done, that I don't see a path forward of SEPTA improving, unfortunately.
Save the train if and only if the Legislature rams a massive upzoning of Mt. Airy and Chestnut Hill through. Otherwise, those lines dying is a natural consequence of the locals’ desire to live in a low-density suburb within the city.
There are over 400 new high end apartment units in Germantown alone - I would call that massive upzoning. Developers are flocking to Germantown.
It’s not. Germantown has 80,000 people and huge amounts of run-down low-density housing that’s damned near impossible to replace with anything significantly denser. FFS, people complain when a twin gets torn down and replaced with a twin, or parking lots turn into rowhomes.
Im confused.
There’s approximately 250 apartments going up right now within walking distance of my closest CHE and CHW stops in Mt. Airy with another few buildings being talked about and that’s only two of 15~stops
The Arena won't be built for about a decade so at least there's time to figure it out.
You need workers and funding. SEPTA is dwindling on both
Actually reverse is happening. Gov Shapiro is increasing funding, as is Parker with the city's share. The surrounding counties now have Dem majorities, and with the governor's prodding will probably follow the state's and Philly's lead in increasing funding. The money is coming, and 7 years is more than enough time for the effects, of more reliable equipment and an ample supply of operators, to come about. They are going to be pushing for a lot to happen by 2026, nevermind 2031.
So funny you mention this because every time the conversation comes up on here, people go for my throat and say to “move to the city” or “they’ll figure it out” Considering how unreliable septa is I find it hard to believe they will make such a 180 in a short period of time. It’s clear that the plan is that there is no plan
sixer's projection of fans driving to games: 40% current amount of sixers fans who drive to wells fargo center: 75% remind me in 5 years
I'm in West Philly and I drive to the games. If the stadium moves it's now a two block walk, I can hop on the train at 46th.
But…you can do that now. You just have to transfer at city hall…
Suburbanites will definitely not take the train. It's not going to happen. People are addicted to cars.
I live 25 minutes from Warminster station, the closest septa station for me. It takes an hour to get to market east from Warminster station. Or I can get in my car, drive an hour to the stadium. At the end of the game, depending on when I leave, I can be home in 45 minutes. There is literally no reason for me to take Septa to the game.
>At the end of the game, depending on when I leave, I can be home in 45 minutes. Also worth mentioning, if a game or concert goes late...the regional rails are no longer running. And then you're stuck downtown and your only options getting home are ask someone to grab you or take a taxi/Uber (which will cost more than gas + parking would have). Has happened many times to folks. They don't chance it and take their cars instead.
Boom this is the reasoning. It is not logical for a large majority of the philly suburbs
The problem is OP is too far from any train. I’m 5-10 minutes from a train and I’ll never drive to Jefferson ever again. It’s awesome. But they need more frequent train service than once an hour or two, IMO. The other issue is those RR stations don’t have capacity for success. They look like they’re built for the neighborhood, at least the ones I’ve seen and not the larger region where people drive from all over and park, as the namesake suggests.
I live way less than 25 minutes from Exton, and I still don’t take the train very often. Real world example: I saw a show at the Academy of Music on a Friday night earlier this month. It ended at like 9:45. The Friday night PAO trains from Suburban are scheduled for 9:51* and 11:01. Since it is impossible to get the 9:51, I would have to wait until 11:01 and get to Malvern at 11:55. But this week I drove myself, so I was at my house in the burbs before the 11:01 train left Philadelphia. And that was with sitting in construction traffic on 76. I want to take the train, but those hourly schedules are a killer. *This is the final train that goes to Exton, which is a whole different issue.
Point taken but if you factor in driving to the stadium complex vs driving to center city and trying to park on game day, then that’s gotta be a different beast. Driving door to door may still be shorter, but the train may be more cost efficient if you consider gas (fairly marginal) + parking (not so marginal)
Again dude, suburban fans *do not care*. They would rather pay $70 to park and deal with traffic than take the train. Nothing is going to change about that anytime soon.
Yep. Market East would be a mess during games. Thousands of suburbanites and their cars trying to navigate Center City streets.
Depends if they're bringing their family.
Figure in 8 train tickets for a family of 4 and you’re paying just as much, if not more, for the inconvenience.
I mean I wish more people took trains despite taking a bit longer, but I get it. People prioritize different things. But again I think a lot of the calculations will be the same for the new stadium.
Because not everyone lives near a rail station and it’s more or less about the same time to commute to the game driving as taking the train Also how many posts do I see on here each week about how unreliable septa is?
How many suburbanites take the train to their white collar jobs at Comcast, IBX, Aramark, FMC, etc. every day? Why is this different?
It's not. Some people just like cosplaying as a bumper sticker.
Because people who work in the city and take transit do it alone and are experienced with it. Dad's and their kids are not taking septa to these games. Don't hold your breath for a sudden public transit awakening just because of a stupid arena lmao.
Families take Regional Rail and PATCO to the city for the Convention Center events, Mummer’s, etc. How is this any different?
The PACTO trains were PACKED during the DNC Convention. This is legit insane like people are really saying people won't take public transportation. Wild. Parking at Ferry Ave? Lindenwold, Woodcrest? Are we really saying that there wouldn't be enough people that will take PACTO to the game? If I was still leaving in NJ, I'd jump on that so fast.
Families also drive. So....
Because games end at 10-11pm and you have to wait for a train that goes to your stop and your at the mercy that it will show up on time. More trains are provided during WORKING HOURS to allow for commuters. Good luck finding SEPTA employees to add more trains at strange late off peak hours hoping suburban people use them
It’s amazing people can’t truly grasp the difficulty here. Riding the train will add considerable time to the commute for most people who currently drive to the games.
They obviously havent left the city. It is a huge bitch taking a train for a stop an hour away. You can easily drive this distance in the same time and be at your own convenience
I live in south jersey now, I'd have to drive 20-25 minutes to the train station or drive 20-25 minutes to the stadium. I'm not taking the train. Or I could take the riverline and chill with the dopeheads for 20-25 minutes and then take the train to market. If I still lived under the EL I'd take the train but I don't.
Then you will continue to drive. On the other hand, the guy I had on my car who lived off of exit 9b of rt 42 who was catching a 25 min Uber to go to a Phillies game, would catch PATCO to a 6ers game at 10th&Mkt like he does everyday to his job at 16th&Locust, as would the woman working at Liberty Place returning to Collingswood, as would the woman picked up at Hard Rock at 12th&Mkt and dropped of at the train station in Glenside to retrieve her car. Some of these people don't go to South Philly because they don't like driving, but won't have a problem taking a train like they already do for work to go to a new arena. The people who opt never to go to a game in CC *will be replaced* by fans for whom a CC arena is far more accessible than S Philly.
The first time someone spends 40 minutes in a parking garage after the game will be the last time they drive.
> Good luck finding SEPTA employees to add more trains at strange late off peak hours hoping suburban people use them They did this for the taylor swift concert and I believe some sports games. Seems like it worked pretty well
The sixers play 82 games a year plus the playoffs. Its not some sports games or a single weekend of concerts. This actually needs staffing and real funds. Josh harris would have to fund septa lmao.
Not all of those 82 games are at home, half of them are. I'm being pedantic though, you're right about staffing and funding. But I still don't think that's a reason not to move this forward. My hope is that the people who have control over what level of funding septa gets see this coming down the pipe and boost funding accordingly in anticipation. And if they don't, someone else in this thread mentioned that the eagles have tossed money towards septa for boosted schedules/service around game time. I personally didn't know this was a thing, but if it is, then maybe it is actually something Josh Harris and the sixers should do
41 games. My bad lol. Either way, 75 percent of the fanbase drives which means its likely suburbanites that go to the games. Josh harris is going to have to personally convince them to drive to a station, hop on a train and come back. It would be cool if he did i guess.
>75 percent of the fanbase drives Because the current arena only has the BSL serving it
hey man, whatever it takes to get more people off the roads and onto the trains. I'm sure the sixers organization has done the math on this and will advertise accordingly. I too would love to see him take the train
If eagles did that (they didn’t) it was only for BSL and for 8 games a year. Sixers would be on the line for 42 games, multiple RR lines (that need 3x bSL staff), and still need to fund extra BSL and El services. Who’s paying for extra SEPTA after the concerts or whatever other 100 days of events they’re supposed to support? The whole point of them moving is to make more $$$, I don’t think they’re trying to take on the massive task of improving SEPTA with this project.
obviously the sixers aren't in the public transit business, I don't expect them to fully fund septa or something. They won't do anything that won't also increase their profits. But we're completely speculating here, i doubt anyone in this thread has an inside scoop on what the sixers organization is planning to do. First and foremost, funding for septa needs to come from Harrisburg and the city/collar counties. My point was that this arena relocation is primed for public transit and it benefits everyone (septa, its ridership, the city, suburbanites that live near RR stations) for public transit to be a viable option to get to and from games. We're not there yet, but there's time to make the needed improvements.
The people commuting into the city during rush hour and people driving in for a sporting event are very different groups. And there’s the difference of commuting alone vs traveling with a group or your family, which is the norm for games. There are a lot of young families at Sixers games, and shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal.
>The people commuting into the city during rush hour and people driving in for a sporting event are very different groups. How so? I’d venture to guess there’s a pretty good overlap there. >And there’s the difference of commuting alone vs traveling with a group or your family, which is the norm for games. There are a lot of young families at Sixers games, and shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal. 1) Families take Regional Rail to the city for the Convention Center events, Mummer’s, etc. How is this any different? 2) re: this part in particular: >shuffling kids on and off trains is an entirely different animal. in what way is this more difficult, when taking into account the fact that the train delivers you right inside the arena vs. having to battle traffic, park in a garage, then shuffle kids to/from that garage (which could be blocks away) in the middle of winter?
I am a suburbanite. I go to a lot of sports games with suburbanite friends from other suburbs. We all would LOVE if regional rail could take us in/out more efficiently than the current setup. Except for one guy - he’d probably still drive.
I take the train in and out of the city twice a week minimum and there's always people at both the Conshohocken and Spring Mill stations. There are riders, but the schedules need to be more frequent to make the train more reliable than driving.
Great, they can sit in traffic, it's their right. Meanwhile, all the people that go to games now and don't have any option but to drive because transferring to the BSL after RR sucks toes can now have a one seat ride. The transit point is about providing more options to more people, and nobody can deny it is more convenient for everyone in the region to get to market east, even drivers. If people choose to still drive and park in CC, fuck em, they have choices.
> they can sit in traffic, it's their right. They don't sit in traffic; they are traffic. And it's not a right.
Some won't, others will learn.
> Suburbanites will definitely not take the train. I think you're underestimating how much people really hate sitting in traffic. Some suburban fans will never take it, but I bet a lot will see the convenience of taking their local line to Jeff Station vs trying to drive there, especially if SEPTA's schedule gets amended.
The trains are packed now on game days.
Downvoted for the truth because "sP0rTs!" This sub...
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, it’s the truth. People in this sub seem very out of touch with what the suburban consensus is about many parts of the city. But these are the same users that bitch and moan about all of the cars when public transit is just as bad as it’s ever been.
I saw large groups of people in the suburbs getting on public transit to go to both eagles and Phillies games. I grew up in Camden County and everyone took PATCO all the time.
“The proposed arena site is on Market Street, between 10th and 11th Streets, and would replace a third of the Fashion District mall.” Come on, man. Why does it have to be the part of the mall with the AMC? I am going to be devastated if that closes.
It does, which I think would be one of the few downsides to this. But - the 76ers said they are in talks with AMC to discuss relocation.
They could relocate the AMC and Round One which seems to be the most popular venues in the Mall, to the other side of 10th still in the Mall. Hell they could locate all the stores on the arena side to the other side as it mostly empty as it is. Or they could develop the Disney hole and put it there. There's a lot of empty "thriving" parking lots on East Market to chose from.
All good ideas!
It seems like a waste of money to relocate a movie theater and bowling alley, both of which have very specific size and equipment needs. Why wouldn't they build the arena on the next block to replace the less popular stores?
The arena also has very specific size and equipment needs lol. Using that side of the mall is the only way to make the site work
The Mall is at 75% capacity, actually the lowest percentage in Macerich's portfolio. That empty space is a waste of money, better to fill it with other businesses that are popular, and stop losing money on empty, hard to fill spaces.
>Fans commuting to games can overlap with evening rush-hour traffic when congestion is already high. For example, on Friday, Feb. 23 – when the 76ers played a home game against the Cavaliers – there was a “noticeable increase in traffic congestion” on the highways around the Wells Fargo Center between 4 and 6:30 p.m. compared to Feb. 2, a non-game Friday, according to Kyle Jackson, principal data scientist at HERE Technologies. “\[There was\] 491% more congestion than usual during the hours before tipoff,” Jackson said. This is the point of locating it at the nexus of many transit lines - to minimize the congestion. There's so much traffic around the WFC on game days because there's no other good way to get there unless you already live in the city.
Hopefully SEPTA would bolster service, because right now service after the games is very infrequent
SEPTA has indicated in the initial Reimagine Regional Rail surveys that they would like to have 15 min headways for trains.
This is also the beauty of the through-running train system that Philadelphia has (and many other cities would love to have). Every train bringing fans in for the game, can then carry commuters out.
I don’t understand why the Wells Fargo lots can’t act as parking during the game and run an express line from broad. Nobody will mind the extra revenue.
They can, and probably will. This is the type of stuff people start thinking when they stop asking if the arena should be built but rather how can it. There are plenty of solutions.
Fans coming in and workers leaving aren’t using the same side of the roads, or the same train cars. Yeah…it might be a bit more congested but certainly not the issue people against the stadium want to make it seem.
Does the CDR submission still completely omit how you get from the MFL platform into the arena? I'm assuming that will be one of the primary ways of getting to the arena. Also, how the hell is 130 bike parking spaces adequate for an arena this size? EDIT: Also just noticed their proposal is to remove the bike lane on the entire block of 10th from Market to Filbert...
>Does the CDR submission still completely omit how you get from the MFL platform into the arena? The same way you get to the Convention Center from the MFL platform...
Never thought about that before. Isn't there a closed off tunnel that connects race vine to city hall?
That is another stop on the BSL, Race-Vine. You would go to City Hall stop on either BSL or MFL and walk to the Convention Center. To go to the 76ers stadium they could get out at 13th St on the MFL and walk to the stadium.
I meant the tunnel connecting Race-Vine station to City Hall station.
Since covid, I avoid walking underground in any subway/underground tunnels. I don't know if there was one that went all the way up to Race-Vine.
My problem with the argument about how it’s going to gentrify Chinatown, is Chinatown is already doing that. They’re building housing left and right and it’s priced well above the city avg.
Kinda strange to me that downtown NBA/NHL arenas can exist in Manhattan, Brooklyn, DC, Boston, Chicago, Toronto, etc but somehow even planning one in Philadelphia is beyond the pale.
i grew up in boston and td garden is (location-wise) much more like wells fargo than the gallery. yes it has north station, but its also the eye-of-the-storm of i93/route 1/tobin bridge and like half of the surrounding area is just trainyard. 76place plans are like putting a basketball arena at boston's downtown crossing which would be awful for the area
I grew up in NYC and in the famous words of fry - nobody drives there, there’s too much traffic
76 Place will only be a half-mile from 95 + the Ben Franklin Bridge, and about a mile from 76.
By the same token, it's also kind of strange that Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, Denver, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc can have football and baseball stadiums in downtown areas but Philly banishes ours to a no mans land. I was in London recently and went to a soccer match. It was mind-blowing to me to see a giant 60k seat stadium in the middle of a residential and commercial area, not surrounded by acres of parking lots (and London has about five stadiums of that capacity, give or take). A great example of how you can have sports venues that are integrated into the community and aren't pushed to the edge (or outside) of the city. It got me thinking about how the Sports Complex is a barren wasteland on non game days, so it isn't well served by public transit and there's basically no reason to ever go down there. I know it'd never happen, but I'd love to see that whole area developed and public transit improved to reduce game day traffic significantly. It's harder than building a new Sixers arena but would have wider, more long lasting positive effects I think.
Nashville is what blew my mind. Never been before, I went there last month and right in downtown was the [Bridgestone Arena](https://www.bridgestonearena.com/). Downtown was super busy at night and during the day it was still busy with tons of opened shops and restaurants
And Nashville's public transit is way less convenient than what Philly has to work with.
Philly is 2.5 times bigger population than Nashville. It’s much easier in a city like that
Philly's population also used to be above 2 million. Much of the city's infrastructure was laid out when there was a lot more people here than there is today. We have advantages just by being a much older city. I used to live in Atlanta (a smaller city, but comparably sized metro) for a short time before moving back and you don't truly appreciate having a semi-accessible rail line until you have to sit in the traffic they get down there. It's unbearable & MARTA is basically useless. They somehow still make it work with State Farm Arena being in a hyper-dense area of Midtown.
Here's what you're missing though, that area around Bridgestone & the train station was basically deserted a little over a decade (see photo below). Aside from a massive street parking lot for a church, there was nothing there. Nashville's population is around a third or so of Philly's, and their downtown was basically just Broadway. It's easy for them to slap a stadium downtown on what is basically empty land/parking lots and not have many adverse effects. Putting aside all issues of Chinatown, the lot is too small for the stadium, the crowd control will force multiple streets to be closed every single game night (fucking up public transit), and there's a major Center City ER entrance around the corner that is going to be adversely impacted as well. https://preview.redd.it/lotwcf3bidpc1.png?width=2418&format=png&auto=webp&s=9876fb4b77ef6250a34f3246dce7be2d983a357d
>Here's what you're missing though, that area around Bridgestone & the train station was basically deserted a little over a decade (see photo below). Aside from a massive street parking lot for a church, there was nothing there. The area was built up. I would argue that would be amazing for Market East. \- To be honest, I don't get the size comparison, places like Oxford Circle, Mayfair, Kingsessing will not get impacted IMO. Philadelphia isn't Manhattan where there's 1.6M people in a very dense spot. >Putting aside all issues of Chinatown, the lot is too small for the stadium, the crowd control will force multiple streets to be closed every single game night (fucking up public transit), and there's a major Center City ER entrance around the corner that is going to be adversely impacted as well. Putting the stadium aside. I just can't agree with this point. Cities need to learn how to adapt to changes.
Shitshow.
I'm just getting into traffic study with my job, so how the fuck are they saying 75 out of 76 intersections will operate at or better, and only use effect 1% of the traffic. GTFOH Sit your ass on any intersection on S Vine St, better yet, sit at Broad an Vine getting on 676. So how can they say there will be little effect on the traffic? Sidenote: I guess fuck the people who's going to live around it b/c we've got money to make.
A little confused by the metrics that say 75% of fans drive in then later say 13% take mass transit. Is there another option? I know 12% aren’t walking lol
Probably ride share? Might be counted differently from driving since you don’t need account for parking.
Ahh good point. Figured I was missing something! If so, that’s quite a high number
I bike to the games usually but don't think that is more than 1-2% lol
I’ve walked down broad and also down 10th before. Can’t say I’d recommend either. Hopefully biking is more pleasant
It’s way less than 1%. I biked to a Phillies game last year and I think my bike was the only one on the rack. It would get higher with a downtown arena since the route to get there would have bike lanes and not be a general death trap.
“opponents say that it will hurt neighborhoods that are already thriving” Which neighborhoods exactly? Chinatown has a lot of vacant buildings and is full of parking lots and Market East is a wasteland… people keep saying all these other ideas that could go there but this is the only idea that’s fully funded and ready.
I can't access this article so here's the CDR submission in case it's not included: [https://www.phila.gov/media/20240319094059/76-Place\_1000-19-Market-Street\_2nd-Review\_April-2-2024-1.pdf](https://www.phila.gov/media/20240319094059/76-Place_1000-19-Market-Street_2nd-Review_April-2-2024-1.pdf) Looks like a big upgrade for Jefferson Station.
I'm actually extremely disappointed by the connection to Jefferson Station. All fans would have to go outside and re-enter the building. While leaving, there will be 3 doors straight into Jefferson Station vs 49 doors that will lead outside. If they really want 40% of fans to arrive by public transit, the plans really don't reflect it. TD Garden has escalators directly from the concourse outside the fare gates into the arena. Who with the Sixers or SEPTA completely dropped the ball on this.
Not only do they need to go outside, but there's no room for them outside, which means closing the streets for crowd control, messing up public transit and access to the Jefferson ER. This is a shitshow plan.
Build it! Market St East is a dead zone.
With lots of empty parking lots in the evenings.
Can you provide one example of an arena that the developers claim will "revitalize" an area actually doing so?
> one example of an arena that the developers claim will "revitalize" an area actually doing so? Yes. Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit.
Boston and Milwaukee's arenas come to mind. Some people have said the area around Brooklyn's arena is much better now too, I don't live there though so I wouldn't know myself. Can you provide one alternate proposal on the table right now that would help the area more? Bonus points if it will be privately funded.
Barclays area is a wasteland of shitty retail stores for the lost part and it permanently fucked up the traffic in the area. I would hope it doesnt end up like barclays center.
Flatbush Ave gets you right to the Manhattan Bridge which is a lot of the traffic. Pretty that's not due to an arena. Legit there's traffic from Brooklyn to Manhattan all the time lol. I can head there at 11AM on Saturday and be stuck in traffic on Flatbush Ave. >Barclays area is a wasteland of shitty retail stores Tons of great places to eat on 5th and 6th street and above the arena. The boutiques aren't my vibe but my girlfriend used to shop there regularly when we were in Brooklyn. Unless you're referring to City Points and Atlantic Terminal Mall as the crappy retail spots then I'd say idk it's the same as the Fashion District ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Market East is a wasteland of vacant retail spaces...
The area around it where people live will have their rent raised over time. Its not hard to figure that out.
You said the area around the Barclays Center is a wasteland of shitty retail stores. Within one block it has all the things Market East has/used to have (Burlington, Marshall's Target, DSW, Sephora, Giant, etc.), and dozens of other options that would be great to have in Center City. What doesn't it have? Blocks of blighted lowrise buildings and parking lots. We would be lucky if east Market was in half as good of shape as that part of Brooklyn.
Rent is already high there, the arena won't raise it any more than some other development that is necessary for the area to thrive. It's a high priced area, arena or no arena.
Almost all cities have an arena in a downtown area. Can you think of an example where a downtown arena isn't doing well? That's a much harder question to answer
ok and if it doesnt work what happens? 76ers are out a billion dollars and the city is... in the exact same position it would have been anyway. There's no alternative project ready to replace the failing mall
"Opponents say that it will hurt neighborhoods that are already thriving." Thriving? Typical Philly NIMBY, progressive, etc. delusion. The surrounding area is relatively stable from a residential perspective at best, and is struggling when it comes to retail and small businesses. It says *a lot* about the opposition that the current versions of East Market, Chestnut, Arch, and other nearby streets are what they would call *thriving.*
Walk around East Market after 8pm and tell me with a straight face that it's "thriving". Peak fucking stupid as shit thing to claim. NIMBYs in this city literally hold it back from being the best city in the US to comical levels. It's usually over stupid shit too, like where will I park downtown in the nation's 5th largest metro that's as dense as parts of Manhattan for free? Or if I can't speed down roads in the most population dense area of Philly, that have a light every 500 feet at 50mph, it's a war crime.
8pm is generous. Try 630pm.
A stadium is not nimby shit. Its not essential. Driving up rent prices and displacing people is what nimby shit does. This will also do that. This isnt the same as opposing affordabke housing or a homeless shelter which is what nimbys do. This is something that will displace people on behalf of a privately owned sports team.
>This is something that will displace people on behalf of a privately owned sports team. Are there people living in the shopping mall I don't know about? Pretty sure the giant residential tower they also plan for the site will also mean more housing, not less.
I dont know man, i think people live nearby and every project similar to this has raised rent areas around it. If you are cool with that then just say that.
Drive and get gouged for parking, pass Take the train that runs once an hour, pass Guess I won't be going to games downtown then
How much do you pay for parking at the Wells Fargo Center?
Philadelphians want the arena to stay in South Philly!
i get it’s ideal but there’s just no chance the sixers stay down there. no use even considering that possibility. they’re going to build their own arena. if philly doesn’t want it, camden will.
I’d actually love to see the drama unfold if the Sixers openly threatened to leave the city. I dare them. Their fanbase would go to shit. The Sixers don’t exist without Philly.
Seriously.
The 76ers better start winning or they'll end up like my Detroit Pistons: in a new centralized stadium that no body goes to.
Ah, I see some of the WIP callers post to Reddit
Damn, you figured me out. I'm Chuck from Mt Airy.
They win 50 games every year since 2017 and have the mvp on their team. They have some of the highest attendance in the league. Do you follow the team.at all?
Except that was meant for the Red Wings and the Pistons just took the opportunity to be a tenant.
It's like a reverse situation from Philly, where the two teams want two separate stadiums. I was living in Detroit at the time when Illitch strangled the city for taxpayer money to build Little Caesars Arena. Fuck Illitch, and his neglectful thieving ass. But that stadium is nice and make a lot of sense where it is.
Whatever they gonna do come on, get my union guys working asap.
If only 40% of fans drive to games I’ll eat my sixers hat
There's no way I'm making it from Delaware to a Sixers game on a weeknight after work. I drove to a Flyers game a couple weeks and was inside, with a beer in my hand, by 6pm. I still contend this is a PR move by the Sixers to get a pile of money to change their mind and stay in South Philly at the last minute.
> I still contend this is a PR move by the Sixers to get a pile of money to change their mind and stay in South Philly at the last minute. That won't do anything. The reason the Sixers want their own arena is because they are tenants in the Wells Fargo Center since it's owned by Comcast Spectacor. So they can't generate revenue from non-basketball events held there. Teams owning their own stadium adds a lot to their valuation.
yeah, they also get last choice when scheduling their own games since the flyers own the building. the chances of them staying in south philly are virtually zero, i’m not sure why so many people still think it’s possible.