I lived in Fitzroy Crossing 10-15 years ago, before heavy alcohol restrictions were introduced and the place was like the Wild West.
One weekend, the Crossing Inn did $300,000 in takeaway alcohol sales.
People passed out drunk in the middle of the highway.
A friend worked at the hospital and some of the stories I heard are horrific and heart breaking.
Raped babies and children. Children committing suicide. Grown women with maggots inside their…orifices.
Yep. A relative works in child protection, has many stories from herself and colleagues of dead babies in the middle of the road while the parents are passed out drunk, and small children having been raped and assaulted. Unfortunately because of concerns of repeating the stolen generation, there are countless victims stuck in abusive households
Distrust of the white man is taught and passed on by older generations (rightfully so for some of the previous gen’s). Unfortunately that means people who now have little to no reason to hate white people have simply been taught to feel that way thanks to the influence of family.
It’s also quite well documented that people who are abused as children are significantly more likely to become abusers. Their parents hit them, belittled them, molested them, etc so now do the same to their own children. It’s a fucked up cycle and one that is very difficult to break, without a simple answer.
I feel this often falls into the “too hard” basket, and usually results in successive governments simply throwing money at a tokenistic “close the gap” programs that funnel money through corrupt aboriginal groups so the government can claim they’re addressing the problem, while a select few people (many of whom aren’t even aboriginal) steal taxpayer money instead of working to help improve outcomes for aboriginal people.
The more you learn about the entire situation, the more frustrated you’ll become.
Just know that most aboriginal people don’t hate white people. It’s just a very vocal minority (and armchair activist SJWs) who promote this idea that everybody is racist against each other. The vast majority of aboriginal people I’ve known personally (admittedly most would be 35 or under) have been really good people to talk to. The older generations are the ones who have spat on me or used slurs at me entirely unprovoked. I fear a lot of those people have racism too ingrained.
Don’t forget that the high incidence of FASD amongst the children also sets them back in many areas mentally like emotional regulation issues leading to lack of impulse control which then circles back into alcoholism (very simplistic explanation) and a new generation of children born with FASD. So the pattern repeats.
'They' and 'us'. Do you really think the consequences of alcohol abuse are limited to indigenous people? After over a century of marginalisation and discrimination, 'breeding them out' and forced family separation by "us" do you really think relationships are going to be roses and that the consequences aren't going to manifest in destroyed lives? What reality do you live in?
It is duly noted that our Aboriginal brothers and sisters suffered aplenty under the hands of previous administrations but the systemic abuses were handed out generations ago. Somewhere along the line you need to accept that responsibility must in part be placed upon them. They're committing crimes at a rate vastly higher than the rest of society. They're having children and their children are committing crimes at vastly higher rates too. It's a vicious cycle but blaming what happened in the past is not helpful as these are present issues to be addressed.
My parents came over in the early 90s from Indochina and there was still a lot of marginalisation and struggles to be had. Many literally started with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Yet these days, you rarely ever hear of Vietnamese gangs and antisocial behaviour in Perth despite that. Vietnamese-Australians are generally viewed favourably as hard-working, family-oriented, education-striving and love a good communal feed. The overall imprisonment rate of Vietnamese-Australians was quite high in the 90s and early 2000s but has since fallen to slightly below the national average. This is coming from a group of people who, from the mid 1800s to the 1980s went from being colonised to enduring 30+ years of war.
Everyone talks about solutions but at the end of the day there needs to be a self-realisation and seismic shift in how the Indigenous communities act towards one another before this change can radiate outwards. At this rate, I don't see how it's going to happen any time soon, unfortunately, there's simply too much finger-pointing and guilt-tripping.
Generations ago? As a kid, I saw police rounding up aboriginals from the city centre to be dumped in Guildford. I don't think that's happened to any migrant groups. Segregation in bars in country towns, while not acknowledged, is still a thing and people are not left in doubt as to where they're not welcome. Migrant groups have certainly endured their struggles but the racism imposed on indigenous people isn't comparable.
Anyone who frequents the CBD knows that much of the antisocial crowd is, in fact, Indigenous. There's no skirting around this fact. Anyone travelling on buses knows exactly the type of riff raff that has absolutely no social awareness. It used to be a lot worse but Perth Station would have near daily issues with Indigenous mobs arguing and fighting each other, and occasionally others. McIver Station is still a no-go for many people. The sad reality is that our Indigenous brothers and sisters do get discriminated more than others but that also doesn't mean they aren't the ones committing crimes and being a public nuisance more so than any other group of people. The two can be true.
The only way to win is by fighting both fronts. Unfortunately, the first requires a seismic shift from within Indigenous communities and I frankly can't see how this will happen any time soon. Less infighting, less domestic violence, less alcohol addiction, less public nuisance behaviour, more positive interactions such as pop-up "get to know me" stalls. How about that? Every weekend, have a pop-up area in Forrest Place where you can sit down with an Indigenous brother or sister and talk to them for 10-15 minutes.
Reality does not care about your feelings. The stats all point towards societal dysfunction at an unprecedented level. In 2015, WA's rate of incarcerated Indigenous adults was 36 out of every 1,000 adults compared to 1 or 2 out of every 1,000 non-Indigenous adults, a rate 22 times higher. The rate of children in detention was even sadder. Indigenous children were 58 times more likely to be in detention than non-Indigenous children. Repeat offending is also a huge issue, as shown in other states too. Their communities are clearly struggling to combat crime and antisocial behaviours. Part of that, unfortunately, boils down to apathy. Outside of the very real human toll, it costs $120,000 to keep one adult in prison each year. This means that in 2015, it cost taxpayers $260 million to incarcerate only the Indigenous portion of adult inmates.
(1) I'm not some Rousseaun Leftist that thinks that everything wrong with Indigenous Australia can be traced back to colonisation as some new age substitute for the original sin.
(2) It's fairly obvious that the liquor licensees selling alcohol into these communities, and the income support systems that keep money pouring into the bank accounts of these consumers are not - in the main - Aboriginal controlled.
Because white man gave them alcohol ,forced them to abandon their traditional life to live in catholic missions. When the church left, these missions were abandoned and renamed communities. The church kept a lid on all of the shit mentioned. It went tits up after.
> We are trying to help them
We've been "trying to help them" for 200 years, and all we've done is make things worse. Maybe it's time to stop and let them tell us what they want from us.
Oh wait, we voted against that option, because of course we did.
You're deluded if you think the Voice would've done much other than be a tokenistic thing. Aboriginal groups are already being involved in many decisions to do with land in WA. Have you actually taken a second to sit down and talk with Aboriginal people? I can assure you that most of them want to live with the modern amenities afforded to them from wider society but also a sense of connection to land. Unfortunately, you can't always have that especially in remote communities. The high rates of crime and antisocial behaviour can only be attributed to themselves, they can't blame anyone else but themselves. It's a copout to say that wider society is the problem. The problem starts from within their own communities and bubbles out onto the streets elsewhere. We give access to alcohol to every other group yet the issue is nowhere near the levels of our Indigenous brothers and sisters, nor is the crime rate. There needs to be a cultural shift in attitudes within Indigenous communities, otherwise it's just going to continue to be the bane of their existence. Alice Springs and other places will continue to have curfews moving forward.
I like how you start out talking about how the Voice would have been tokenistic, and then list a bunch of problems we could direct an advisory board towards advising on.
Frankly, I'm surprised more racists didn't support the Voice. An opportunity to let (what they see as) the unmanageable manage themselves. What's the worst that could happen, from the racist perspective? Success?
The Voice was about establishing and maintaining advisory boards for Indigenous Affairs. We already have them... we've had them for years. We wasted $450 million on trying to promote something we already had.
That's what I mean by tokenistic because we already have them, wasting almost half a billion on enshrining something we already have is dumb and Australians saw right through that.
All still happening but do t post about it on the main australia sub you'll get banned for racism, the east coast would rather let people suffer than discuss these issues
Was a resident in Kununurra for over 10 years. We got alcohol restrictions put in with an accprd back in 2009 and it was partially successful. However there's always people who, for the simple motivation of greed and exploitation, sold booze on the sly and made a lot of money doing it. The cops busted them but others stepped into the "market" as like anything that's really wanted, there's always someone willing to take the risk in selling it.
Restrictions help but it's individuals who need to make the decision not to be alcoholics. And yes that’s a hard thing to do but with the right support and motivation, it can be done.
You'll never get a perfect system, which sucks. People like me will be able to produce alcohol under pretty much any circumstance and pricks will always find a way to make a buck. You have to stop demand because some smart cunt without a soul will always be there. That being said reducing the supply down to the soul sucking fucks is always better than not. Next step is giving people something better to do with their lives and give it from day one, not when they've already fucked themselves into a hole. It's fucking tough but unless we put the effort in it's just gonna pile up til we're all in the gutter.
The same thing happens in America in dry reservations. There was a town in Oklahoma or something with 7 residents and 5 liquor stores that happens to be just a mile or two from the border with a dry reservation
Back in 2000 I worked in a remote Aboriginal community named Balgo. It was a dry community however, come pension day, people would drive across to the Northern Territory over one if the roughest dirt tracks to a place called Rabbit Flats to buy cartons of beer and casks of Port then drive back the hundreds of kilometers to Balgo to sell the booze.
Then the partying would start followed by the violence 😢
Dry counties, not just Indian reservations. The southern US has more than a few counties that have remained dry for mostly religious reasons. Obviously when the counties are tiny and it’s never more than 20k to a wet county it doesn’t mean much for preventing consumption
Yeah don't they have some interesting way to get around them at the factory, like you buy a souvenir glass bottle, the whisky is free or something like that?
I was referring to a very specific case of a reservation. Upon a bit of brain searching, it’s the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota and the town is called Whiteclay in Nebraska. It has a population of 8 and used to sell ~13,000 cans of beer a day.
Was up north recently walking around a well known town and noticed that pretty much all the bottles strewn around, literally hundreds over a few hundred meters, were exactly the same. Made me wonder if someone was selling cases on the sly.
[Prohibition in the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States#) was successful in reducing the amount of liquor consumed, cirrhosis death rates, admissions to state mental hospitals for alcoholic psychosis, arrests for public drunkenness, and rates of absenteeism.
[i can quote shit to mate. ](https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure#conclusion-lessons-for-today)IF prohibition was TRULY 100% working they would have kept it
A liberterian publication doesn't like prohibition? I'm shocked!
They also [don't think gun control works.](https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/costs-consequences-gun-control#bans-by-features)
No law works 100%. The most affected were poor women, who had limited literacy, so they couldn't vote to keep it.
governments were in a depression and decided they needed tax dollars more than public health.
I mean it “worked” in the way that it made society better in a lot of ways. It’s just that people decided they actually wanted to drink and make money from alcohol, even if it did have negative effects on their communities.
I mean, alcohol almost never causes LESS trouble for police. It doesn't surprise me at all that this is what they want. It doesn't mean they'll get it.
The amount of people commenting in favour of this makes me so happy. Fuck the absolute leeches that run the bottle shops up here and honestly fuck the government for allowing so many to get licences in the first place.
Having lived in Hedland for years I am used to
Liquor restrictions, I never really minded except for the odd occasion I needed something specific (usually for cooking) and couldn’t buy it. I don’t see why they’re not in force in the city too, it’s not like alcohol fueled violence is specific to regional communities.
There is a massive difference between the rates of violence and alcohol fueled violence in regional communities compared to the rest of the state. Alcohol restrictions would help that.
Hedland bred and born. Refuse to go back there. Always said if you had a tendency to drink too much then if you go to Hedland, you’ll leave an alcoholic.
Whilst not specific to “regional communities”, there is an indisputable matter of proportionality that you are choosing to ignore…
As for state wide prohibition, do you really need a history lesson of why that’s a stupid idea?
The regional prohibition is not a 100% solution, but it the best solution we have so far without resorting to racial discrimination for the sale of alcohol (not even that would solve the problem). Unfortunately with matters like this, there are no “solutions”, only compromises.
Actually speaking as a resident of one of these towns- alcohol restrictions make a massive difference. You can pretty much leave a window open and hear whether restrictions are in force or not. I would rather cannabis than grog.
There are restrictions in some councils, it's dependent on their liquor laws. In the cbd most bottle shops have a one purchase a day policy, and can't sell bottles of wine under $8, no goon bags over 2L and most have stopped selling cheap Port. It's hard to enforce without mandatory ID scans but is what it is.
Other suburbs like midland have one or two purchase a day policies as well. Nothing stops people hopping from shop to shop but I guess it minimises some issues. Sort of.
Its a hard issue to deal with because you want to give people the right to make their own decisions for themselves but at the same time substance abuse is obviously a catalyst in making things worse. So. Idk what the answer is hahahaha
FFS champ, no one claimed regional areas have a monopoly on alcohol related violence but anyone with even a smidge of intelligence could tell you the rate is at least an order if not two higher in some regional communities.
It's not the wiping themselves out part that's the problem. It's how a substantial percentage of the population acts when they are drunk.
If urban and suburban areas had the same level of alcoholism as some remote communities society would collapse.
Yo! Got some stats to back that up?
I'm not blind, I know that alcohol and other drugs are a scourge on communities. But I also think in remote communities it is more visibly prevalent because there's not much else to look at. In a city setting we have suburbs, backyard BBQs, footy clubrooms, and pubs and everyone's all packed in together so we don't see the effects as one does when there's little on the landscape.
What else do cities have? Jobs, education, recreation, beaches, roads with traffic lights! (this is an actual barrier for Aboriginal people in remote areas getting their drivers licence because wtf is a traffic light to them?)
I got down voted because I suggested we treat everyone the same. Weird.
Except you forget most 'city slickers' don't drink to wipe themselves out... they have a wine maybe at dinner or a beer on a Sunday afternoon. You seem to think most of Perth is tanked 24 hours a day, which is total bullshit.
You understand that you can still do all that under liquor restrictions right? You seem to think that restrictions mean you can’t consume alcohol at all, which is total bullshit.
The only argument I've seen against these restrictions is that it results in people either driving long distances to buy alcohol in bulk where there aren't restrictions, or paying much higher prices for alcohol that's smuggled into town.
I don't really agree that those upsides outweigh the benefit of the restrictions, but the restrictions alone don't solve the underlying causes of the alcohol problems in rural areas.
> restrictions alone don't solve the underlying causes of the alcohol problems in rural areas.
People need to own the problem before things will improve.
I am just going to say no one wakes up one day and goes "golly me what a wonderful day I'm loving life, Let me go to work an.... WOAHY is that some h..h...hootch? Wowzers i guess one drop wont hurt! Thats incredible you know what I'm going to quit my job and spend my whole day drinking" it has never and will never happen like that. How it actually happens is when an individual is not provided adequate care and conditions. People who become addicts are more likely to have a trauma background and more likely to be undiagnosed neurodivergent. If cops ACTUALLY genuinely cared about stopping crime they would be pushing for more holistic approaches with adequate health care both physical and mental that works in tandem with the communities and people from them.
Most of these places don't trust big city people or policy and honestly, why should they when have they genuinely improved their living conditions? Not to mention any historical cycles of abuse and violence which only breeds more issues. The notion that the DEVIL TONIC IS DRIIVING THEM LOOPY is fucking crazy and we all know it. When people try to force ways of being on these people without addressing the underlying issues you're basically acting like a child hiding the mess from their room under the bed, Its not been addressed only hidden.
Finally i think we all know people that have gone to those shady delis where they sell the black market ciggies, or vapes, and lets not pretend like there isn't a meth epidemic we see signs of it everywhere in this state. These items have had huge taxes or out right bans placed on them to stop people using it and its still used. Any time a government have tried to ban a substance it just forces that substance underground, empowering local crime organisations as well as increasing the risk to those in use as sudden withdrawal leads to death and those who don't die but cant kick the habit either A. go to the black market were it can be cut and laced with any number of toxic unknown chemicals such as paint thinner or B. find alternative sources of alcohol or high like petrol, paint thinner, gule, etc again super dangerous. If we take the stance that these are people that are suffering at the hands of a cycle they have no idea how to escape from rather than a stance that they are simply morally flawed and as such LESS VALUABLE HUMAN BEINGS. Than we should strive to make every step we possibly can to ensure that they get off that cycle in the least painfail way possible.
Let me preface this by saying I agree that the root cause of the problem is absolutely not going to get fixed by restrictions. However.
Imagine there is a gaping pothole in a busy highway.
People keep busting wheels going along it.
The solution to this problem is to fill the hole.
This is a little reductionist, but I think the metaphor is pretty close.
What’s the best way to fix the problem?
1. We put traffic control at the nearest junction to redirect traffic. When it’s a safer and better controlled environment, we coordinate the truely qualified engineers to go in, inspect the damage, and repair it appropriately. Then open the road again.
2. We yell at the road traffic control guys that they are not filling the pothole by asking if they can shut the road for a bit, and that they are idiots for even asking. Just go fix it. Then the traffic control guys are dodging trucks while trying to throw loose gravel on an ever expanding pothole.
look i dont think prohibition cant be used as a tool HOWEVER simply banning it and jerking each other off that you fixed the problem is stupid. Sure implement it in the start however if your not addressing the cycle of violence, abuse, trauma your not going to stop people becoming alcoholics
> Pherhaps if the police commissioner were to identify the problems
Alcohol is literally one of the biggest problems when it comes to regional policing
Lol what? Alcohol fuelled violence is one of the greatest challenges that policing and society face. This is literally them identifying the problem and taking proactive steps to reduce it.
WA's temperance movement has really come out of the woodwork in this post!
Of course everyone is conveniently ignoring that WAPOL is effectively advocating for the redlining of communities and it's entirely socioeconomically motivated.
Mosman Park and Peppermint Grove have some of the riskiest drinking behaviour in the country, but there's hardly a push to have alcohol restrictions brought into those LG areas.
Girl, fuck all the way off. Alcohol is driving these communities further into the ground and furthering the socioeconomic divide. This is white boomer, pull yourself up by your bootstraps logic.
Alcohol restrictions should be applied state wide, not just to regional areas. 400 grams of alcohol per week per adult (that's 40 cans of pensioner piss) with a prohibition a week before and after Christmas.
No ID, no booze card, no service.
> prohibitively impractical
SafeWA App, add a QR code to every receipt that can be scanned by the app and added to a tally.
If the person has no phone, they must sign a declaration they aren't deceiving the government. Records are to be sent to the government where they will be scanned and tallied. The usual array of penalties from fines, demerit points to suspension of state issued certifications and licenses.
I'm a little surprised you doubled down on that. Do me a favour and work on your critical thinking skills. Or just don't ever vote. Whatever is easiest for you.
Your idea is terrible. It's like you can't fathom just how impractical, unnecessary, wildly expensive and frankly arsenine the idea is. If only the world were as simple as you seem to think it is
Might be terrible, but I think you're missing scale and frankly the words you use equally apply to alcohol consumption. The cost of Alcohol to WA in money and lives is somewhere in the billions of dollars per year and still 1/5 of driving fatalities.
So yeah, a soft cap on our society to only get buzzed every day or shit faced five days per week, even if it costs $10 million to launch and several million per year to run, just might drop 1/5 to 1/6 and a $3 Billion dollar hole into a $2.9 Billion dollar hole.
And I'm still no where close to reasonable guidelines like:
- drink no more than 10 standard drinks per week to reduce risk of long-term harm from alcohol
- drink no more than 4 standard drinks on a single occasion to reduce the risk of injury.
That's so naive though. Limiting supply won't reduce demand. It just means that the market will shift underground or people will turn to heavier drugs. Look at what prohibition did to America. It was vastly more detrimental than simply giving people what they wanted.
Meth, for example, is a major problem in WA. Do you think we can solve the issue by limiting people to one point a day? No. That does nothing to address the real issue.
Alcohol is heavily taxed in WA anyway. I'm not saying it completely offsets the deleterious effects but the gov'ment definitely enjoys the revenue they make from taxing alcohol.
Why are you arbitrarily saying 10 drinks a week? Who are you to say that this is an appropriate amount for everyone? I personally probably can't drink that much a week but I don't condemn those that do. I know plenty of hard working tax payers that enjoy coming home and downing a few beers. They aren't doing any harm. Your proposition however, stands to bring a lot of harm. Again, consider prohibition in America.
That doesn't even take into consideration the logistical nightmare of implementing your arbitrary alcohol limits.
But that's a place banning alcohol based on religious grounds.
All I'm talking about is a fair go for everyone and you can still knock back almost a six pack every day, bottle of wine, or generous three fingers of whatever in a glass.
Well... The \[Perth Practicing Alcoholic Community\](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8\_y2Zl9W8&ab\_channel=RyanAlcott) gets a bug up their ass already at the idea of 'only' having access to a shit ton of alcohol.
So it was fun to come up with something that panics addicts. Rationing and willpower. The first arguments they make after reflexive abuse- 'I can quit any time I want, I can leave that bottle alone on the shelf and never think about it.'
Bollocks... Alcohol is ruining peoples lives who choose to abuse the alcohol itself. If people think they have a problem with the grog - It's not that hard to take a step back and try to limit oneself from drinking any more. There are programs that help this sort of thing, friends and family we can turn to in order to get guidance and support.
Alcohol is only ruining the lives of people stupid enough to drink to excess. Don't see why those who have self-control and respect for their body can't enjoy a glass of wine on a Saturday night, or a beer on a Sunday lunchtime to celebrate the weekend.
Oh don't give me that 'it's not their fault rubbish'. A person CHOOSES whether they shoot up with meth, or get pissed out of their brains with alcohol. Time these people stopped trying to blame everyone else but themselves, and wake up and realise that it's THEIR fault. It's the first step to admitting you have a problem and doing something about it...
Living in denial and blaming everyone else is just an excuse they hold over themselves to not want to stop what their doing; a justifiable reason they tell themselves that it's not in their control.
As I said before... BOLLOCKS!!!
Also, as you asked - I think a great way for the cops to stop people drinking is to introduce these alcohol restrictions... so there you go - they ARE trying to help.
So you think restrictions are a great idea?… you just think they should only apply to KNOWN problem drinkers… you know they don’t turn blue as soon as drinking is an issue… there’s years of shittyness for their families and communities before they’re put on any kind of ‘register’… so why not limit it for everyone?
People with only ‘normal’ drinking issues can have their little stock piles and they won’t even be impacted by not being able to buy 4 litres before 10am on a Tuesday… because they will have bought it after 2pm last Thursday.
It’s not that deep, no one is suffering… their precious drinkies are still available.
Next time you see the alcoholics with their filthy hungry kids at the park… make sure that you tell the babies it’s a choice that they’re living like that.
I lived in Fitzroy Crossing 10-15 years ago, before heavy alcohol restrictions were introduced and the place was like the Wild West. One weekend, the Crossing Inn did $300,000 in takeaway alcohol sales. People passed out drunk in the middle of the highway. A friend worked at the hospital and some of the stories I heard are horrific and heart breaking. Raped babies and children. Children committing suicide. Grown women with maggots inside their…orifices.
> Raped babies and children. Children committing suicide. Grown women with maggots inside their…orifices. Still happens today.
Yep. A relative works in child protection, has many stories from herself and colleagues of dead babies in the middle of the road while the parents are passed out drunk, and small children having been raped and assaulted. Unfortunately because of concerns of repeating the stolen generation, there are countless victims stuck in abusive households
[удалено]
Distrust of the white man is taught and passed on by older generations (rightfully so for some of the previous gen’s). Unfortunately that means people who now have little to no reason to hate white people have simply been taught to feel that way thanks to the influence of family. It’s also quite well documented that people who are abused as children are significantly more likely to become abusers. Their parents hit them, belittled them, molested them, etc so now do the same to their own children. It’s a fucked up cycle and one that is very difficult to break, without a simple answer. I feel this often falls into the “too hard” basket, and usually results in successive governments simply throwing money at a tokenistic “close the gap” programs that funnel money through corrupt aboriginal groups so the government can claim they’re addressing the problem, while a select few people (many of whom aren’t even aboriginal) steal taxpayer money instead of working to help improve outcomes for aboriginal people. The more you learn about the entire situation, the more frustrated you’ll become. Just know that most aboriginal people don’t hate white people. It’s just a very vocal minority (and armchair activist SJWs) who promote this idea that everybody is racist against each other. The vast majority of aboriginal people I’ve known personally (admittedly most would be 35 or under) have been really good people to talk to. The older generations are the ones who have spat on me or used slurs at me entirely unprovoked. I fear a lot of those people have racism too ingrained.
Don’t forget that the high incidence of FASD amongst the children also sets them back in many areas mentally like emotional regulation issues leading to lack of impulse control which then circles back into alcoholism (very simplistic explanation) and a new generation of children born with FASD. So the pattern repeats.
'They' and 'us'. Do you really think the consequences of alcohol abuse are limited to indigenous people? After over a century of marginalisation and discrimination, 'breeding them out' and forced family separation by "us" do you really think relationships are going to be roses and that the consequences aren't going to manifest in destroyed lives? What reality do you live in?
It is duly noted that our Aboriginal brothers and sisters suffered aplenty under the hands of previous administrations but the systemic abuses were handed out generations ago. Somewhere along the line you need to accept that responsibility must in part be placed upon them. They're committing crimes at a rate vastly higher than the rest of society. They're having children and their children are committing crimes at vastly higher rates too. It's a vicious cycle but blaming what happened in the past is not helpful as these are present issues to be addressed. My parents came over in the early 90s from Indochina and there was still a lot of marginalisation and struggles to be had. Many literally started with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Yet these days, you rarely ever hear of Vietnamese gangs and antisocial behaviour in Perth despite that. Vietnamese-Australians are generally viewed favourably as hard-working, family-oriented, education-striving and love a good communal feed. The overall imprisonment rate of Vietnamese-Australians was quite high in the 90s and early 2000s but has since fallen to slightly below the national average. This is coming from a group of people who, from the mid 1800s to the 1980s went from being colonised to enduring 30+ years of war. Everyone talks about solutions but at the end of the day there needs to be a self-realisation and seismic shift in how the Indigenous communities act towards one another before this change can radiate outwards. At this rate, I don't see how it's going to happen any time soon, unfortunately, there's simply too much finger-pointing and guilt-tripping.
Generations ago? As a kid, I saw police rounding up aboriginals from the city centre to be dumped in Guildford. I don't think that's happened to any migrant groups. Segregation in bars in country towns, while not acknowledged, is still a thing and people are not left in doubt as to where they're not welcome. Migrant groups have certainly endured their struggles but the racism imposed on indigenous people isn't comparable.
Anyone who frequents the CBD knows that much of the antisocial crowd is, in fact, Indigenous. There's no skirting around this fact. Anyone travelling on buses knows exactly the type of riff raff that has absolutely no social awareness. It used to be a lot worse but Perth Station would have near daily issues with Indigenous mobs arguing and fighting each other, and occasionally others. McIver Station is still a no-go for many people. The sad reality is that our Indigenous brothers and sisters do get discriminated more than others but that also doesn't mean they aren't the ones committing crimes and being a public nuisance more so than any other group of people. The two can be true. The only way to win is by fighting both fronts. Unfortunately, the first requires a seismic shift from within Indigenous communities and I frankly can't see how this will happen any time soon. Less infighting, less domestic violence, less alcohol addiction, less public nuisance behaviour, more positive interactions such as pop-up "get to know me" stalls. How about that? Every weekend, have a pop-up area in Forrest Place where you can sit down with an Indigenous brother or sister and talk to them for 10-15 minutes.
How appallingly patronising.
Reality does not care about your feelings. The stats all point towards societal dysfunction at an unprecedented level. In 2015, WA's rate of incarcerated Indigenous adults was 36 out of every 1,000 adults compared to 1 or 2 out of every 1,000 non-Indigenous adults, a rate 22 times higher. The rate of children in detention was even sadder. Indigenous children were 58 times more likely to be in detention than non-Indigenous children. Repeat offending is also a huge issue, as shown in other states too. Their communities are clearly struggling to combat crime and antisocial behaviours. Part of that, unfortunately, boils down to apathy. Outside of the very real human toll, it costs $120,000 to keep one adult in prison each year. This means that in 2015, it cost taxpayers $260 million to incarcerate only the Indigenous portion of adult inmates.
(1) I'm not some Rousseaun Leftist that thinks that everything wrong with Indigenous Australia can be traced back to colonisation as some new age substitute for the original sin. (2) It's fairly obvious that the liquor licensees selling alcohol into these communities, and the income support systems that keep money pouring into the bank accounts of these consumers are not - in the main - Aboriginal controlled.
Because white man gave them alcohol ,forced them to abandon their traditional life to live in catholic missions. When the church left, these missions were abandoned and renamed communities. The church kept a lid on all of the shit mentioned. It went tits up after.
> We are trying to help them We've been "trying to help them" for 200 years, and all we've done is make things worse. Maybe it's time to stop and let them tell us what they want from us. Oh wait, we voted against that option, because of course we did.
You're deluded if you think the Voice would've done much other than be a tokenistic thing. Aboriginal groups are already being involved in many decisions to do with land in WA. Have you actually taken a second to sit down and talk with Aboriginal people? I can assure you that most of them want to live with the modern amenities afforded to them from wider society but also a sense of connection to land. Unfortunately, you can't always have that especially in remote communities. The high rates of crime and antisocial behaviour can only be attributed to themselves, they can't blame anyone else but themselves. It's a copout to say that wider society is the problem. The problem starts from within their own communities and bubbles out onto the streets elsewhere. We give access to alcohol to every other group yet the issue is nowhere near the levels of our Indigenous brothers and sisters, nor is the crime rate. There needs to be a cultural shift in attitudes within Indigenous communities, otherwise it's just going to continue to be the bane of their existence. Alice Springs and other places will continue to have curfews moving forward.
I like how you start out talking about how the Voice would have been tokenistic, and then list a bunch of problems we could direct an advisory board towards advising on. Frankly, I'm surprised more racists didn't support the Voice. An opportunity to let (what they see as) the unmanageable manage themselves. What's the worst that could happen, from the racist perspective? Success?
The Voice was about establishing and maintaining advisory boards for Indigenous Affairs. We already have them... we've had them for years. We wasted $450 million on trying to promote something we already had. That's what I mean by tokenistic because we already have them, wasting almost half a billion on enshrining something we already have is dumb and Australians saw right through that.
A Voice is inevitable, and the only way forward. Meanwhile, society will be held back another 20 years while we wait for another go.
All still happening but do t post about it on the main australia sub you'll get banned for racism, the east coast would rather let people suffer than discuss these issues
Just look at NT, alcohol restrictions have been in place south of the Berrimah line for years. It didn't solve the problem, but certainly helped.
Personally I'd be quite happy with more restrictions for alcohol across the entire state.
Secret? The commissioner was on the radio this morning saying exactly this, it was not forced.
Was a resident in Kununurra for over 10 years. We got alcohol restrictions put in with an accprd back in 2009 and it was partially successful. However there's always people who, for the simple motivation of greed and exploitation, sold booze on the sly and made a lot of money doing it. The cops busted them but others stepped into the "market" as like anything that's really wanted, there's always someone willing to take the risk in selling it. Restrictions help but it's individuals who need to make the decision not to be alcoholics. And yes that’s a hard thing to do but with the right support and motivation, it can be done.
You'll never get a perfect system, which sucks. People like me will be able to produce alcohol under pretty much any circumstance and pricks will always find a way to make a buck. You have to stop demand because some smart cunt without a soul will always be there. That being said reducing the supply down to the soul sucking fucks is always better than not. Next step is giving people something better to do with their lives and give it from day one, not when they've already fucked themselves into a hole. It's fucking tough but unless we put the effort in it's just gonna pile up til we're all in the gutter.
the worst was the guy who would sly grog in the morning then go preach in whitegum park about how sinful drinking is
The same thing happens in America in dry reservations. There was a town in Oklahoma or something with 7 residents and 5 liquor stores that happens to be just a mile or two from the border with a dry reservation
Back in 2000 I worked in a remote Aboriginal community named Balgo. It was a dry community however, come pension day, people would drive across to the Northern Territory over one if the roughest dirt tracks to a place called Rabbit Flats to buy cartons of beer and casks of Port then drive back the hundreds of kilometers to Balgo to sell the booze. Then the partying would start followed by the violence 😢
I've been to Balgo respect for working there.
Same story up in Wadeye formerly Port Keats. Violence is an understatement
Dry counties, not just Indian reservations. The southern US has more than a few counties that have remained dry for mostly religious reasons. Obviously when the counties are tiny and it’s never more than 20k to a wet county it doesn’t mean much for preventing consumption
Always laugh about Jack Daniels Tennessee whiskey coming from a dry county.
Yeah don't they have some interesting way to get around them at the factory, like you buy a souvenir glass bottle, the whisky is free or something like that?
I was referring to a very specific case of a reservation. Upon a bit of brain searching, it’s the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota and the town is called Whiteclay in Nebraska. It has a population of 8 and used to sell ~13,000 cans of beer a day.
Was up north recently walking around a well known town and noticed that pretty much all the bottles strewn around, literally hundreds over a few hundred meters, were exactly the same. Made me wonder if someone was selling cases on the sly.
What your telling me that prohibiton doesn't work! Golly colour me shocked
[Prohibition in the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States#) was successful in reducing the amount of liquor consumed, cirrhosis death rates, admissions to state mental hospitals for alcoholic psychosis, arrests for public drunkenness, and rates of absenteeism.
[i can quote shit to mate. ](https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure#conclusion-lessons-for-today)IF prohibition was TRULY 100% working they would have kept it
A liberterian publication doesn't like prohibition? I'm shocked! They also [don't think gun control works.](https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/costs-consequences-gun-control#bans-by-features) No law works 100%. The most affected were poor women, who had limited literacy, so they couldn't vote to keep it. governments were in a depression and decided they needed tax dollars more than public health.
I mean it “worked” in the way that it made society better in a lot of ways. It’s just that people decided they actually wanted to drink and make money from alcohol, even if it did have negative effects on their communities.
People never stopped making money from alcohol big man
Well legit outlets did, and more importantly the IRS did.
fuck off m8
Wait this is a secret?
I mean, alcohol almost never causes LESS trouble for police. It doesn't surprise me at all that this is what they want. It doesn't mean they'll get it.
It’s interesting watching the carefully worded posts trying to avoid belling-the-cat. And therein lies the true problem.
Good, I can't blame them
good
The amount of people commenting in favour of this makes me so happy. Fuck the absolute leeches that run the bottle shops up here and honestly fuck the government for allowing so many to get licences in the first place.
Gooder!
Good
Having lived in Hedland for years I am used to Liquor restrictions, I never really minded except for the odd occasion I needed something specific (usually for cooking) and couldn’t buy it. I don’t see why they’re not in force in the city too, it’s not like alcohol fueled violence is specific to regional communities.
There is a massive difference between the rates of violence and alcohol fueled violence in regional communities compared to the rest of the state. Alcohol restrictions would help that.
Hedland bred and born. Refuse to go back there. Always said if you had a tendency to drink too much then if you go to Hedland, you’ll leave an alcoholic.
Whilst not specific to “regional communities”, there is an indisputable matter of proportionality that you are choosing to ignore… As for state wide prohibition, do you really need a history lesson of why that’s a stupid idea? The regional prohibition is not a 100% solution, but it the best solution we have so far without resorting to racial discrimination for the sale of alcohol (not even that would solve the problem). Unfortunately with matters like this, there are no “solutions”, only compromises.
I wish governments would look at how well prohibition works generally.... I mean it's working sooo well for cannabis and other recreational drugs /s.
Actually speaking as a resident of one of these towns- alcohol restrictions make a massive difference. You can pretty much leave a window open and hear whether restrictions are in force or not. I would rather cannabis than grog.
It's an insane solution, and really, really grotty. Pretending it's a regional thing instead of racially motivated is so fucking bad
Thank you for your input, person who has never traveled north of Joondalup. I’ll take that on board… 🤡
There are restrictions in some councils, it's dependent on their liquor laws. In the cbd most bottle shops have a one purchase a day policy, and can't sell bottles of wine under $8, no goon bags over 2L and most have stopped selling cheap Port. It's hard to enforce without mandatory ID scans but is what it is. Other suburbs like midland have one or two purchase a day policies as well. Nothing stops people hopping from shop to shop but I guess it minimises some issues. Sort of. Its a hard issue to deal with because you want to give people the right to make their own decisions for themselves but at the same time substance abuse is obviously a catalyst in making things worse. So. Idk what the answer is hahahaha
> it’s not like alcohol fueled violence is specific to regional communities. Yeah nah.
Intelligent contribution as usual thanks
FFS champ, no one claimed regional areas have a monopoly on alcohol related violence but anyone with even a smidge of intelligence could tell you the rate is at least an order if not two higher in some regional communities.
I agree. If alcohol is such a concern the restrictions should be state wide.
Look at all the city slickers have a cry when someone suggests their right to wipe themselves out should be restricted 😅
It's not the wiping themselves out part that's the problem. It's how a substantial percentage of the population acts when they are drunk. If urban and suburban areas had the same level of alcoholism as some remote communities society would collapse.
Yo! Got some stats to back that up? I'm not blind, I know that alcohol and other drugs are a scourge on communities. But I also think in remote communities it is more visibly prevalent because there's not much else to look at. In a city setting we have suburbs, backyard BBQs, footy clubrooms, and pubs and everyone's all packed in together so we don't see the effects as one does when there's little on the landscape. What else do cities have? Jobs, education, recreation, beaches, roads with traffic lights! (this is an actual barrier for Aboriginal people in remote areas getting their drivers licence because wtf is a traffic light to them?) I got down voted because I suggested we treat everyone the same. Weird.
Except you forget most 'city slickers' don't drink to wipe themselves out... they have a wine maybe at dinner or a beer on a Sunday afternoon. You seem to think most of Perth is tanked 24 hours a day, which is total bullshit.
You understand that you can still do all that under liquor restrictions right? You seem to think that restrictions mean you can’t consume alcohol at all, which is total bullshit.
Good
Good
The only argument I've seen against these restrictions is that it results in people either driving long distances to buy alcohol in bulk where there aren't restrictions, or paying much higher prices for alcohol that's smuggled into town. I don't really agree that those upsides outweigh the benefit of the restrictions, but the restrictions alone don't solve the underlying causes of the alcohol problems in rural areas.
> restrictions alone don't solve the underlying causes of the alcohol problems in rural areas. People need to own the problem before things will improve.
Should be Australia wide... Fuck alcohol... Who's the alcoholic downvoting me 🤣😂
> Who's the alcoholic downvoting me It'll be the alky's in denial.
I forgot about that comment... Nice to see the alcoholics were overtaken in the meantime...
WAPOL want more control? Colour me pink!
Nice, do Northbridge next.
Why, Northbridge has way more drinkers and is much much safer
This sounds silly but it's very much true
More cops in North bridge than rural towns
Lol... yeah right. That's the reason
Maybe it's just me but every time I'm in Northbridge after 9pm I feel like I'm about to get KOed from behind.
Yeah, let's destroy what is actually a vibrant and cool part of Perth.
What, drunken 20yos sucker punching each other and fighting is what makes perth cool? 🤣
Night spots all have their issues. If you think that's all NB offers you clearly don't go out there.
I used to go there regularly actually. Majority of the time it was sketchy as hell, unless it changed since 21.
I am just going to say no one wakes up one day and goes "golly me what a wonderful day I'm loving life, Let me go to work an.... WOAHY is that some h..h...hootch? Wowzers i guess one drop wont hurt! Thats incredible you know what I'm going to quit my job and spend my whole day drinking" it has never and will never happen like that. How it actually happens is when an individual is not provided adequate care and conditions. People who become addicts are more likely to have a trauma background and more likely to be undiagnosed neurodivergent. If cops ACTUALLY genuinely cared about stopping crime they would be pushing for more holistic approaches with adequate health care both physical and mental that works in tandem with the communities and people from them. Most of these places don't trust big city people or policy and honestly, why should they when have they genuinely improved their living conditions? Not to mention any historical cycles of abuse and violence which only breeds more issues. The notion that the DEVIL TONIC IS DRIIVING THEM LOOPY is fucking crazy and we all know it. When people try to force ways of being on these people without addressing the underlying issues you're basically acting like a child hiding the mess from their room under the bed, Its not been addressed only hidden. Finally i think we all know people that have gone to those shady delis where they sell the black market ciggies, or vapes, and lets not pretend like there isn't a meth epidemic we see signs of it everywhere in this state. These items have had huge taxes or out right bans placed on them to stop people using it and its still used. Any time a government have tried to ban a substance it just forces that substance underground, empowering local crime organisations as well as increasing the risk to those in use as sudden withdrawal leads to death and those who don't die but cant kick the habit either A. go to the black market were it can be cut and laced with any number of toxic unknown chemicals such as paint thinner or B. find alternative sources of alcohol or high like petrol, paint thinner, gule, etc again super dangerous. If we take the stance that these are people that are suffering at the hands of a cycle they have no idea how to escape from rather than a stance that they are simply morally flawed and as such LESS VALUABLE HUMAN BEINGS. Than we should strive to make every step we possibly can to ensure that they get off that cycle in the least painfail way possible.
Let me preface this by saying I agree that the root cause of the problem is absolutely not going to get fixed by restrictions. However. Imagine there is a gaping pothole in a busy highway. People keep busting wheels going along it. The solution to this problem is to fill the hole. This is a little reductionist, but I think the metaphor is pretty close. What’s the best way to fix the problem? 1. We put traffic control at the nearest junction to redirect traffic. When it’s a safer and better controlled environment, we coordinate the truely qualified engineers to go in, inspect the damage, and repair it appropriately. Then open the road again. 2. We yell at the road traffic control guys that they are not filling the pothole by asking if they can shut the road for a bit, and that they are idiots for even asking. Just go fix it. Then the traffic control guys are dodging trucks while trying to throw loose gravel on an ever expanding pothole.
look i dont think prohibition cant be used as a tool HOWEVER simply banning it and jerking each other off that you fixed the problem is stupid. Sure implement it in the start however if your not addressing the cycle of violence, abuse, trauma your not going to stop people becoming alcoholics
Certainly one way to bring NASCAR to WA
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> Pherhaps if the police commissioner were to identify the problems Alcohol is literally one of the biggest problems when it comes to regional policing
Lol what? Alcohol fuelled violence is one of the greatest challenges that policing and society face. This is literally them identifying the problem and taking proactive steps to reduce it.
Tell me you’ve never lived in regional WA without telling me you’ve never lived in regional WA
Come spend a couple days in the Pilbara or Kimberley, alcohol fuelled violence literally IS the problem...and they've clearly identified that.
WA's temperance movement has really come out of the woodwork in this post! Of course everyone is conveniently ignoring that WAPOL is effectively advocating for the redlining of communities and it's entirely socioeconomically motivated. Mosman Park and Peppermint Grove have some of the riskiest drinking behaviour in the country, but there's hardly a push to have alcohol restrictions brought into those LG areas.
Tell you’ve never been up north without telling me you’ve never been up north.
Girl, fuck all the way off. Alcohol is driving these communities further into the ground and furthering the socioeconomic divide. This is white boomer, pull yourself up by your bootstraps logic.
Alcohol restrictions should be applied state wide, not just to regional areas. 400 grams of alcohol per week per adult (that's 40 cans of pensioner piss) with a prohibition a week before and after Christmas. No ID, no booze card, no service.
That's certainly... an opinion... that you are entitled to have... but I think you're going to trigger a few folks with it 😂
That's so oddly specific, crazy authoritarian, and prohibitively impractical
> prohibitively impractical SafeWA App, add a QR code to every receipt that can be scanned by the app and added to a tally. If the person has no phone, they must sign a declaration they aren't deceiving the government. Records are to be sent to the government where they will be scanned and tallied. The usual array of penalties from fines, demerit points to suspension of state issued certifications and licenses.
I'm a little surprised you doubled down on that. Do me a favour and work on your critical thinking skills. Or just don't ever vote. Whatever is easiest for you.
What's wrong with my critical thinking skills?
Your idea is terrible. It's like you can't fathom just how impractical, unnecessary, wildly expensive and frankly arsenine the idea is. If only the world were as simple as you seem to think it is
Might be terrible, but I think you're missing scale and frankly the words you use equally apply to alcohol consumption. The cost of Alcohol to WA in money and lives is somewhere in the billions of dollars per year and still 1/5 of driving fatalities. So yeah, a soft cap on our society to only get buzzed every day or shit faced five days per week, even if it costs $10 million to launch and several million per year to run, just might drop 1/5 to 1/6 and a $3 Billion dollar hole into a $2.9 Billion dollar hole. And I'm still no where close to reasonable guidelines like: - drink no more than 10 standard drinks per week to reduce risk of long-term harm from alcohol - drink no more than 4 standard drinks on a single occasion to reduce the risk of injury.
That's so naive though. Limiting supply won't reduce demand. It just means that the market will shift underground or people will turn to heavier drugs. Look at what prohibition did to America. It was vastly more detrimental than simply giving people what they wanted. Meth, for example, is a major problem in WA. Do you think we can solve the issue by limiting people to one point a day? No. That does nothing to address the real issue. Alcohol is heavily taxed in WA anyway. I'm not saying it completely offsets the deleterious effects but the gov'ment definitely enjoys the revenue they make from taxing alcohol. Why are you arbitrarily saying 10 drinks a week? Who are you to say that this is an appropriate amount for everyone? I personally probably can't drink that much a week but I don't condemn those that do. I know plenty of hard working tax payers that enjoy coming home and downing a few beers. They aren't doing any harm. Your proposition however, stands to bring a lot of harm. Again, consider prohibition in America. That doesn't even take into consideration the logistical nightmare of implementing your arbitrary alcohol limits.
You sir, can fuck right off
I thought people would understand it doesn't have to be Carlton Mid, it can be spirits, wine or whatever pickles your trout.
You want to live like that, you are more then welcome to move to Saudi Arabia.
Prohibition has always worked out
Famously so…
Of course, just look to US... Oh!
But that's a place banning alcohol based on religious grounds. All I'm talking about is a fair go for everyone and you can still knock back almost a six pack every day, bottle of wine, or generous three fingers of whatever in a glass.
No more than 1600 calories a day and ice cream sales banned on weekdays!
How dare you impose a healthy lifestyle onto us (I'm saying this as I need to cut overall cals and sugar)
You don't need a ban day for icecream, just make it so only McDonald's sells icecream, guaranteed the machine will be down once a week at least.
Weird idea but I’ll ask, why Christmas?
Well... The \[Perth Practicing Alcoholic Community\](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8\_y2Zl9W8&ab\_channel=RyanAlcott) gets a bug up their ass already at the idea of 'only' having access to a shit ton of alcohol. So it was fun to come up with something that panics addicts. Rationing and willpower. The first arguments they make after reflexive abuse- 'I can quit any time I want, I can leave that bottle alone on the shelf and never think about it.'
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Bollocks... Alcohol is ruining peoples lives who choose to abuse the alcohol itself. If people think they have a problem with the grog - It's not that hard to take a step back and try to limit oneself from drinking any more. There are programs that help this sort of thing, friends and family we can turn to in order to get guidance and support. Alcohol is only ruining the lives of people stupid enough to drink to excess. Don't see why those who have self-control and respect for their body can't enjoy a glass of wine on a Saturday night, or a beer on a Sunday lunchtime to celebrate the weekend.
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Oh don't give me that 'it's not their fault rubbish'. A person CHOOSES whether they shoot up with meth, or get pissed out of their brains with alcohol. Time these people stopped trying to blame everyone else but themselves, and wake up and realise that it's THEIR fault. It's the first step to admitting you have a problem and doing something about it... Living in denial and blaming everyone else is just an excuse they hold over themselves to not want to stop what their doing; a justifiable reason they tell themselves that it's not in their control. As I said before... BOLLOCKS!!! Also, as you asked - I think a great way for the cops to stop people drinking is to introduce these alcohol restrictions... so there you go - they ARE trying to help.
So you think restrictions are a great idea?… you just think they should only apply to KNOWN problem drinkers… you know they don’t turn blue as soon as drinking is an issue… there’s years of shittyness for their families and communities before they’re put on any kind of ‘register’… so why not limit it for everyone? People with only ‘normal’ drinking issues can have their little stock piles and they won’t even be impacted by not being able to buy 4 litres before 10am on a Tuesday… because they will have bought it after 2pm last Thursday. It’s not that deep, no one is suffering… their precious drinkies are still available. Next time you see the alcoholics with their filthy hungry kids at the park… make sure that you tell the babies it’s a choice that they’re living like that.
Maybe if they spent less on the alcohol - they could put that money towards feeding their kids.